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Archive for Friday, March 26, 2010

Disturbing acts

Political protests that take the form of threatening messages and behavior are a nonpartisan issue.

March 26, 2010

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In our wonderful democracy, citizens have many avenues for expressing anger and dissent with government actions

Threats, violence and vandalism are not on that list, and leaders of both parties, as well as the nation’s political commentators, should take a strong stand to quell this activity across America.

A brick bearing “anti-Obama rhetoric” shattered a floor-to-ceiling window at the Sedgwick County Democratic headquarters in Wichita last weekend. It was just one of several similar incidents across the country, apparently inspired by a former Alabama militia leader who said the action was meant to “get everyone’s attention.”

Since the weekend vote approving health care reform, several members of Congress — and some of their relatives, by mistake — have received hateful, obscene, threat-filled phone and fax messages. In Virginia, vandals cut a propane line at the home of Rep. Tom Perriello’s brother after his address was posted online by activists who apparently mistook it for the home of the congressman who voted in favor of health care reform.

It doesn’t matter what party you’re in or whether you favor or vehemently oppose the health care legislation that was passed last weekend. Threatening the health and welfare of your political opponents is not how Americans should act.

Members of Congress, from both sides of the aisle, have decried the current wave of threats and vandalism. “It is unacceptable in America,” said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who urged angry citizens to work for change through the political system by registering voters and campaigning for candidates. That’s the right way to do it. At the same time, public officials and political commentators need to be aware of the tone of their rhetoric. A war of words is one thing, but they should be careful not to encourage physical violence or destruction of property.

Both Democrats and Republicans are targets of the current activity, but violent expressions of protest are wrong whether they are led by Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives or any splinter group thereof. Lawrence had its own experience with that kind of violence during anti-war demonstrations in the 1960s. It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now.

It’s disturbing to read about the profane, violent threats being received by some members of Congress and their families. Fortunately, no one has been physically injured, but the potential for some unbalanced person to act on one of these threats will continue to grow unless the nation can dial back its violent rage. American leaders don’t have to defend the recently passed health care bill, but they must defend the democratic system that allows us to disagree and work through difficult issues without resorting to violence.

Comments

TheOriginalCA 4 years, 9 months ago

Well, Al Gore DID tell people to engage in "Civil Disobedience" but no one decried that but for some reason Limbaugh and Hannity always get accused of pushing for the same when they have NEVER encouraged the same thing the Gore specifically encourages.

scott3460 4 years, 9 months ago

And now the corporate media will muddy the waters sufficiently that those responsible for what we have witnessed may escape responsibility. Ignorance is bliss.

grammaddy 4 years, 9 months ago

The Tea Party will be the downfall of the Republican Party.

Dan Eyler 4 years, 9 months ago

I think the JW should have given this thought a long time ago. President Bush lived that last 6 years of his presidency with threats from every liberal/socialist group in America. There wasn't a day go by that we didn't see threats and insults with many coming from the halls of congress. The problem here is a congress that is out of touch. They are feeling the heat of a very mad middle class. Yes do you remember us. I agree that the voter anger shouldn't be violent but I hope that our representatives are very uncomfortable every time they return to their home states. I hope when they are out to dinner one of their constituents pays a visit to their dinner table and has a chitchat with them about the issues effecting the lives of the middle class. We are crumbling under government pressure, debt, deficits, taxes, regulations, and a corrupt federal government. I suggest these clowns leaving these distasteful messages go back into the caves they come from. However,no one should be silenced and accused of threats because they are marching the halls of congress with an attitude that we are mad as hell and we are not going to take this much longer. This movement against government expansion is real, it is driven by middle class America that is on the brink of collapse. Examples: Housing markets at the lowest point in American history, deficits that don't end, businesses closing their doors, debt that cannot be paid, government benefits expanding when we have no money in our pockets, yet we continue to have politicians raising taxes on anything they can think of. Sugar, tobacco, alcohol, salt, utilities, sex, drugs you name it. These congressional clowns expect government to stay at the same level of funding at the same time the middle class is standing on the edge with a government hand between their shoulder blades inching us closer to the brink. If the media continues to be the government spokes person we will simply ignore your pleas for higher taxes and more government. We are reloading and we have our boots on now and we are hitting the ground running. Oh should I have said that!

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

Remember Kenneth Gladney? He's the American citizen that was assaulted by SEIU thugs at a town hall meeting in St Louis. His crime was passing out paper copies of the "Don't tread on me" flag. http://biggovernment.com/kengladney/2009/11/09/i-am-kenneth-gladney/

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

Wasn't it just last August that the White House exhorted Dear Leader's kool-aid army to "hit back twice as hard"? What sort of message did "Let 'em go" Holder send when he gave a free pass to people practicing voter intimidation in Philly? A saying about sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind comes to mind.

John Hamm 4 years, 9 months ago

"American leaders don’t have to defend the recently passed health care bill," And I say, "Why not?" The health care bill is extremely unpopular yet our "professional" politicians in Washington have decided to ignore the voice of the people and pass it anyway. There's little the average American can do now to affect the decisions in Washington. Now don't say you can vote them out - as you well know it's difficult to unseat an established professional. The "Devil you know versus the one you don't" justification. Perhaps one should be writing about why the American public is so distraught over passage of this bill.......

Bucker00 4 years, 9 months ago

The media's double standard is being shown for what it is considering that we had the same thing coming from the other side for at least 6 years. That "civil disobedience" was applauded as patriotic if I remember properly.

Using violence, and the threat of violence as a means to an end is wrong regardless of your political leanings. Conservatives have said this all along, and are now actively condemning these acts. This did not occur when it came from the other side. This is not to mention that conservitves and republicans are being blamed now, even though they haven't even presented the actual offenders since they haven't been caught. Keep in mind, there are a lot of independants that are very angry as well, not to mention moderate democrats.

It matters not which party these idiots align themselves with, I condemn them outright. Are liberals now willing to do so towards those that did exactly these same things and worse for several years before now when Bush held the reins? Because I remember hearing nothing more than applause, set aside a very few individuals from the left end of the spectrum who actually seemed to be lucid.

The main difference now, is that the press is willing to report on it.

geekin_topekan 4 years, 9 months ago

Dont let a Repub tell that he is above al-queda and barbarism. The greatest victory a Repub can give to terrorism is to morph into their lifestyle and beliefs.

M. Lindeman 4 years, 9 months ago

Both sides of the isles should crying for term limits period!! Serving in Washington Dc. was never supposed to be a career in the first place. We have term limits for the Potus why not for the other power hungry yo yos up there? When our Goverment go against the wishes of the people then the Goverment needs tweaking. Those of you on the left that don't think we need term limits for the House and Senate, are part of the problem.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

Civil disobedience is a far cry from vandalism and threats. The two really aren't the same thing.

Richard Heckler 4 years, 9 months ago

Repubs have never offered anything and love their campaign money from insurance giants TOO!

Repubs will change nothing ever because they TOO love subsidizing the insurance industry with OUR tax dollars.

Repubs are being their phoney selves. They know this bill will not be modified so they feel safe raising hell about something they don't want changed.

Will republicans take away an insurance industry gravy train? Of course not. For the moment they are playing people for fools.... their favorite sport.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

"President Bush lived that last 6 years of his presidency with threats from every liberal/socialist group in America. There wasn't a day go by that we didn't see threats and insults with many coming from the halls of congress."

Really?

Richard Heckler 4 years, 9 months ago

The violent Teabaggin Republicans have spoken.... with bricks,violent actions and violent language.

Just as they do against Planned Parenthood, the Dr Tillers and just about any other source of disagreement with their views.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

merrill, you should do some research on the difference between the tea party movement and what the sexual act of tea-bagging actually is.

jonas_opines 4 years, 9 months ago

Only thing that would really fit as homophobic is a poor response to the name. I'd agree it's stupid, but it's not like calling your opponents slurs and names has just popped up recently.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

“…Like it or not, between 2001 and 2008, the “progressive” community redefined what is acceptable and not acceptable in political and public discourse about their elected officials. Slurs like “Nazi” and “fascist” and “I hate” were no longer the old street-theater derangement of the 1960s, but were elevated to high-society novels, films, political journalism, and vein-bulging outbursts of our elites. If one were to take the word "Bush" and replace it with "Obama" in the work of a Nicholson Baker, or director Gabriel Range, or Garrison Keillor or Jonathan Chait, or in the rhetoic of a Gore or Moore, we would be presently in a national crisis, witnessing summits on the epidemic of "hate speech."

So here we are with the age-old problem that once one destroys decorum for the sake of short-term expediency, it is very hard to restore it in any credible fashion on grounds of principle when the proverbial shoe is on the other foot. A modest suggestion: If the liberal community wishes to be more credible in its concern about contemporary extremist anti-administration rhetoric, then they might try the following: “Please, let us avoid extremism and do not fall into the same trap as Baker, Chait, Keillor, Gore, Moore, or Range when they either expressed open hatred toward their president, or speculated about the assassination of their president, or compared their president to a fascist. We must disown such extremism, past and present." http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTc3NDA5YjE2NzUyZmQ3OWRiOGUyNDVmNjJmNDJhMjg=

jonas_opines 4 years, 9 months ago

spin, divert, spin, divert!

When you can't justify or defend the acts, rather than condemn them just find something else of at least surface similarity to yark about. Draw attention away.

esteshawk 4 years, 9 months ago

The way I see it, "democrates" get angry when we spend money on wars in other countries and violate constitutional rights. "Republicans" get angry when we spend money on our own country and expand rights.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

"TJ1776 (anonymous) says…

"I seem to remember army recruitment centers being bombed and indeed some army recruiters murdered during the last admin. Why were those events not politicized?"

I did a quick Google search (not exhaustive) and found extensive mention of a bombing that happened at a Times Square recruitment station. It seemed to be connected to the bombing of British and Mexican embassies. Not sure of the connection there?

Also, some recruiters were shot outside of a center in SC. The shootings were committed by a Muslim.

I don't think these were coordinated attacks that were expressing similar sentiments. The current events are easy to connect to health care. The attacks on recruiting stations were about a year apart and more difficult to connect. That's my guess anyway.

lindsaydoyle 4 years, 9 months ago

""Tea Party" initially called themselves "tea baggers".

No, it was the mainstream media that put that filthy label on them.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

Oops. South Carolina should be Little Rock, AR in my previous post.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

"No, it was the mainstream media that put that filthy label on them."

What exactly is the mainstream media? It seems that the term "mainstream media" has become the paranoid's "they."

I'm not really calling you a paranoid, lindsaydoyle.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 9 months ago

"Using violence, and the threat of violence as a means to an end is wrong regardless of your political leanings. Conservatives have said this all along, and are now actively condemning these acts."

What a joke-- violence, and threats of violence, have been one of the main tools of "conservatives" for many decades.

Ricky_Vaughn 4 years, 9 months ago

Barry, you sound like you're defending slavery...talk about disenchanted.

I think you'd be singing a different tune if the bricks were coming through your windows or they cut the propane line at your house. Your feeble attempt at sarcastic comedy sickens me.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

Somebody was probably just shooting their guns in the air to celebrate healthcare reform.

nobody1793 4 years, 9 months ago

Does the bill allowing concealed carry in government buildings extend to election day?

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

Isn't protest supposed to be patriotic? I supoose it depende on what or who you are protesting.

jonas_opines 4 years, 9 months ago

"I supoose it depende on what or who you are protesting."

More like "how." At least we're on the same page with the interrogative words of the English language, though.

number1jayhawker 4 years, 9 months ago

Well said "KansasFaithful". Couldn't have said it better.

M. Lindeman 4 years, 9 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says… "Using violence, and the threat of violence as a means to an end is wrong regardless of your political leanings. Conservatives have said this all along, and are now actively condemning these acts."

What a joke-- violence, and threats of violence, have been one of the main tools of "conservatives" for many decades.

rdragon writes:

What a joke! So far what I have read here on both sides just amazes me. Until everyone realize it is one party or another and realize it is the whole system, we are doomed to continue down this path. As I have said, we have allowed these idiots to make going to the House and the Senate a career. Then we are just reaping what we sow, instead of spewing he said she said garbage. What I see is the only constructive debate we can have is how many terms to set term limits at.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

porchie's last post is going straight to http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/ Worth repeating: ...Porch_person's modus operandi when confronting opposing viewpoints: (Step 1) Quote something completely random the opponent says. It doesn’t have to be a full sentence or more than 5 words .(Step 2) Claim their quote should be interpreted to mean s/he supports ‘X’ ('X' = anything you want, like paving the streets with post-notes. Similar to how porchie claims you say something, even when he quoted you saying the exact opposite. It really doesn't matter what 'X' is, as long as it is ridiculous, and keeps the opponent on the defensive to distract from the fact you can't back up your argument). Alternatively, repeat step 1, and using the two random quotes claim they contradict each other. (Step 3) Mock opponent for believing ‘X’ (Step 4) When opponent claims s/he didn’t say that, respond by stating that you quoted him/her directly (even though when you paraphrase the statement it isn’t anything close to what s/he actually said) (Step 5) Insert “(laughter)” (Step 6) If opponent continues to claim s/he didn’t say ‘X,’ use a specious analogy. (Step 7) If opponent continues to respond, claim s/he is “in Garfinkel mode” trying to get away from the fact he said ‘X,’ and/or contradicted himself. But never explain how the quote you randomly pulled is anything close to ‘X.’ And never respond to his/her questions. (Step 8) Insert “(laughter)” (Step 9) If this does not work engage in personal (attacks) by making up facts about opponent, again using random quotes, as described in Step 1 (Step 10) Repeat until you have lost all credibility on the issue.

meggers 4 years, 9 months ago

With leadership comes responsibility. This is a direct result of the GOP/Tea Party inciting McCarthy-style fear, in order to achieve a political result. This certainly isn't a new tactic and it's historically been quite effective. What they didn't count on (or at least I hope it wasn't intentional), was that this time, their fear-mongering tactics ignited the racist attitudes that were already bubbling just below the surface. I'm not saying that everyone in the Tea Party is racist, but now that the masks are starting to come off, we're seeing a widespread underbelly of racism that many of us suspected was there all along.

And I agree that democrats used a lot of derisive language about Bush, myself included. The big difference I see is that while you might have seen signs at protest rallies calling Bush a fascist, war criminal, or whatever, you weren't hearing that sort of inflamed rhetoric from democratic leaders. If some of them had gotten on CSPAN and said with a straight face that Bush was a communist (or pick your political poison) and that he had plans to implement his communist agenda, which would destroy America as we know it (and kill your grandmother!), I think you might have seen more violence from the left.

The leaders of both parties have a responsibility to refrain from yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. And sorry, folks, the theater just isn't on fire, no matter what the lunatic fringe would have you believe.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 9 months ago

Cry-baby right wingers.

Fact: A black man, Barack Hussein Obama, is Commander in Chief and President of the United States of America.

The democrats control the country.

Moderates are in charge.

Suck on that binky, cry-babies.

Oooh, is it time for revolution? Overthrow of the gubmint?

Get real, losers. Suck on it.

bruno2 4 years, 9 months ago

The Bush folks used to arrest anyone that went to a Bush speech wearing a t-shirt they didn't like. The tea party wing nuts think it's ok to carry a gun to an Obama appearance! These idiots are out of control and need to be slapped down. Civil discourse is the law of the land. Brick throwing, spitting on congressman, ad nauseum is not democracy, it's hooliganism and criminal. Anyone involved in such activities should be prosecuted. However, the elephants, such as Boehner and Palin (don't retreat, reload"), that are wipping up their frenzy and egging them on should be censored, and in some cases, also prosecuted. It is expressly the lies and inflammatory language being used by these people about health care reform (e.g., "death panels") that have roused these sheep to stampede. Free speech is protected, but you can't yell "fire" in a theater. Similarly, it is not free speech to egg on radicals to violence. These folks are not particularly bright and are easily led. ""The Tea Party movement is mostly made up of people who consider themselves Republicans," said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. "They are less educated but more interested in politics than the average Joe and Jane Six-Pack and are not in a traditional sense swing voters." http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1436

bruno2 4 years, 9 months ago

Shewmon, if things are as hunky dory for you elephants as you trumpet, why are you eating your own?

Chew on this:

"Case in Point No. 2: David Frum, the neoconservative pundit and American Enterprise Institute fellow, who was a speechwriter for George W. Bush. ("Axis of Evil"-- that was his phrase.) No, Frum hasn't gone bonkers. But he was a victim of right-wing obsession. On Sunday, he called the Republicans' defeat on health care reform the party's "Waterloo." And he named names:

"We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible."

Within a nano-second, his GOP-slamming comments were all over the cablesphere, the blogosphere, and the twittersphere. He was the kid calling out the naked emperor. And it seems as if it didn't take long for someone to shout, "Off with his head." On Thursday, AEI de-fellowed him. In what Frum described on his blog as an "unexpected conclusion" of his seven-year-long relationship with the neoconnish think tank, he was fired without notice and given two weeks to empty his office. Frum didn't say much else about this. But Bruce Bartlett, who in 2005 was fired from another conservative think tank after writing a book critical of George W. Bush, disclosed that AEI had tried to censor Frum and others:

Since, [Frum] is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do. . . . The [right-wing] donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line."

Bartlett called this episode more evidence of the "closing of the conservative mind." He noted that this larger phenomenon could lead to, well, craziness: "Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already."

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/26/has-obamas-health-care-win-driven-conservatives-crazy/

Tom Miller 4 years, 9 months ago

grammaddy (anonymous) says…

The Tea Party will be the downfall of the Republican Party.

Exactly. Have they not read and learned from recent history? Remember that little short nut-job named Perot? The surest way for the obama political machine to be swept into a second term is for the Tea Party to successfully divide the R's into two seperate entities. I understand the anger some feel, BUT ya gotta ponder the end results, and obama et AL love what the Tea Party is doing. I'm amazed they can't see that for themselves.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 9 months ago

Fact: A black man, Barack Hussein Obama, is Commander in Chief and President of the United States of America.

The democrats control the country.

Moderates are in charge.

That's a tough bunky for cry-baby right wingers to suck on.

Oooh, is it time for revolution? Overthrow of the gubmint? Boo hoo hoo. Waaa waaa waaa.

Get real, binky suckers..

bruno2 4 years, 9 months ago

Kudos to Vertigo for the Grassley piece. I'd forgotten that.

monkey_c 4 years, 9 months ago

REVOLUTION!!!! No matter the cost. Vandalism? Destruction? Our country is being destroyed by fascist pigs.

beatrice 4 years, 9 months ago

Does this mean there will be no more inflamatory editorials calling Obama a Socialist and that he and his administration are trying to destroy the country?

Didn't think so.

ferrislives 4 years, 9 months ago

All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy. All work and no play makes Tom a dull boy.

ferrislives 4 years, 9 months ago

Protest is great. Domestic terrorism is not. These people are no different than the Taliban. They're all just bullies.

tomatogrower 4 years, 9 months ago

Let's remember that the second worse terrorist attack on US soil was done by a man, who probably would have loved Palin, Rush, etc.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"revolution!!!!"

We vote on our revolutions.

"Personally, I go to RealClearPolitics."

Porchee, I'm impressed. I always figured you for a moderate DU type.

"You really think those numbers are going to stay there"

As more democrat sleaze is exposed, like the stupak airport deals, I expect those (R) numbers to rise.

"Fact: A black man, Barack Hussein Obama, is Commander in Chief and President of the United States of America."

Fact, Dubya did that twice.

"Moderates are in charge."

In an off-hand way. There are enough blue dogs to keep the worst ideas of the liberals from coming to fruition. That's why there is no public option.

The Figureheads: The speaker and the president border on socialists and reid has been cowed into submission by obama. You don't think those jabs at las vegas were by accident, do you? Luckily though, Only one has any real chance of retaining power. Reid is as good as done and will soon be unemployed and the president is a fencepost turtle. Pelosi is from a safe district and because of gerrymandering there are enough liberal representatives to keep her at her throne.

OTOH, November will shift power just enough to make the fencpost turtle a true lame duck. The senate will keep him in check. His only power after that will be by fiat, and those fiats will die at the whim of the next president.

Very often I hear democrats complain that republicans fight dirty, and they wish the democrats had the guts to do the same. That's pretty much true. Republicans have the conviction to fight tooth and nail with any bit of rhetorical or parliamentary ammo they can lay their hands on regardless of what they believe the outcome will be. Obama, reid and pelosi can buy buy there way around that for the moment, but every dime of the currency they use will cost them a dollar's worth of independent votes in november. The entire process of health insurance reform has been a shining example of both the left and the right's usual tactics. The polls reflect the result. When the law actually kicks in, if it ever does, I truly feel sorry for the democrats because the taxation and empty promises will make them virtual lepers for a generation.

In fact, I expect porchee to vote against obama in 2012.

sickofdummies 4 years, 9 months ago

Hey you dummies who are discussing the civil war, and criticizing the republicans' part in it...you do realize that Lincoln was a republican, right? You do realize that the Union was republican? You do realize that Kansas sided with the republicans in an effort to abolish slavery? Seriously. Not to take sides on the issue, but please know your facts before you start spouting crap!

And I agree that there are many racist, nasty republicans. Just like there are many uneducated, freeloading democrats. All of you think about that before you start bashing one party or the other. It just makes you look stupid and like the worst form of what you are protesting. I encourage you all to be rational and listen to what other rational people have to say. As for the crazies, you'll never change them so block it out, dont become one!

ferrislives 4 years, 9 months ago

Absolutely Tom, that's one of my favorite movies. Stanley Kubrick was a genius.

Concerning the article, I'm not sure where others are coming from when referencing the 8 years that Bush was in power. Sure there were a lot of heated words and protests, including a few loonies, but I don't remember bricks marked with hateful messages being thrown through windows, fake Anthrax being sent to Republicans, people being spit on, and a propane line being cut because a bill was passed. That's just straight out of the Taliban handbook, and the right wing extremists aren't doing themselves any favors for the next election.

They seem to have forgotten the lesson from the last election, and that was that there are fringes on both sides, but most voters are center-thinking. They don't like domestic terrorism, no matter who it comes from, and that party will pay at election time.

The Dems out there should just sit back and let the Tea Party split the GOP, because that's what's happening. The people I see as scared are the different GOP officials out there. They see the writing on the wall; the Tea Party is hijacking their party, and is getting out of control.

The GOP needs to finally figure out what they want to be, and have a solid group of people speaking their talking points. They need new ideas, and less hate and no's. In my opinion, they need to go back to what they started as: conservatives who believed in small government (i.e. not telling people what to do with their lives), and being fiscally responsible. They finally got what they wanted back in 2000, and they squandered their power by going against their core values. They've lost touch with where they started, and Reagan would not be proud of his party right now.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 9 months ago

I've said it a million times: Until our political positions become again what they were meant to be, a duty not a lucrative career, our government will remain broken. Fixing it wishlist 1. Term limits on the House and Senate 2. Abolition of taking any monies from Lobbys (think of it like an NCAA athlete. You take money, you're out.) 3. End the Fed 4.Reorganize the political parties. Being conservative or liberal is too broad and people's opinions and beliefs are more complex and have outgrown the two party system. There should be more than two parties if for no other reason than having two predominant parties isn't conducive to getting things done. (I realize there ARE more than two parties, but in terms of power there are effectively only two as the Repubs and Democrats choke off everyone else.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"Let's remember that the second worse terrorist attack on US soil was done by a man, who probably would have loved Palin, Rush, etc."

The worst, of course was by a man, appointed by lincoln, that starved women and children across Georgia by stealing their food and burning their crops.

And while we are playing this game, how many on the left wear t shirts or have flags bearing the image of a Stalinist that murdered hundreds of people?

I like this game.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"Hey you dummies who are discussing the civil war, and criticizing the republicans' part in it...you do realize that Lincoln was a republican, right?>

The parties switched philosophies because of decisions made by lyndon johnson and the takeover of the democrat party by fringe leftwing groups in and after 1968. Your statement is disingenuous.

Zell Miller said the democrat party left him, and he was right.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 9 months ago

But for the fact they were lousy bomb-makers, one of Dear Leader's best buds could have been one of the terrorists with the highest count of dead Americans to his credit.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

Porchee, stop guessing wrong. Bad Porchee.

"Gee, an unemployed person"

Not accurate. I work four 10-hour days every week. I make good money. I'm really good at what I do.

"and wound up defending a guy who raped"

Again, not accurate. I defy you to show anything I wrote that defended the actions of the men in question. You may show that I defended their right to a trial instead of summary execution. I will defend what you might term polygamy, but not in any sense where the government endorses anything but the marriage of one man and one woman. Any number of consenting adults may live together and fornicate, and if their church endorses that as a marriage, then they are married in the religious sense.

It seems I'm a little too far left for you regarding what consenting adults may do in the privacy of their property. Stop being such a bigoted right wing lunatic, porchee. You remind me of that guy that wears dresses in the mass street dillons, it just doesn't look right (no offense the the LGBT-whaterver community, or whatever you call yourselves these days).

You may also show that my opinion was that if Koresh was found guilty of killing federal agents he should have been sentenced to die in whatever manner Texas uses these days. The same goes for anyone that kills anyone they know to be a law enforcement official acting in a state sponsored operation. You need to read the words and do less interpreting. I don't USUALLY make mistakes in wording.

"12 year olds"

Sex with 12 year olds in texas is illegal (the age of consent there is 18) and should be punished by law if the defendant is found guilty. Those are plain words porchee. Let's see you twist them.

"The evidence that you've lost the last two election cycles"

Win some, lose some. What was the evidence when Dubya won two terms or when Scott Brown won the people's seat in Massachusetts?

"You're more "fringe" than i first imagined. " I've not met any members of my fringe. OTOH, you are solidly on the fringe. You fit into a nice box with about 10% of the posters here. Granted, you are more fun than most of them, but your shared philosophy and herd mentality damn you to their company. You'll still lose to Tom Sherman (who is a poet at heart), but you have me beaten in the popularity contest. Maybe you'll get a ribbon for second place.

"latest Klan news bulletin" You can do better than that. That's as bad as blahnative insinuating I was a naxi skinhead for supporting abortion. That kind of stuff lets Tom Sherman clean your clock. At least he dresses his insults up in poetics, clever words and patterns. Your's are just "off the shelf" copies of copies of copies. I expect better next time.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

Oops, no offense to Tom, but I meant BarryPanders. I get my right wingers mixed up sometimes. Take heart though, I ignore the names of most of the liberals. They all regurgitate the same tripe anyway so names would be superfluous.

Except Porchee. Porchee, start putting (laughter) back in your posts as I am not being annoyed enough. And try to same something witty, I'm going out on a limb for you here.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"Looks like history doesn't conform to your opinion, Liberty275."

History doesn't conform to the fact that it is illegal to have sex with 12 tear olds? Are you posting from the Philippines?

"I'm part of that 53% of the voting population that elected Barack Obama"

Half of those people were dumb enough to believe obama's used car saleman routine, but that isn't your fringe.. Half of the 25% left are yellow dog democrats, and that's your fringe.

Now, tell us about your fringe when Dubya won twice, beating out a traitor and an idiot that thought he invented the internet. While you are at it, profess your love for the idiot's vp candidate, LIEberman. LOL.

BTW, do you see what I did there? That is the proper way of indicating you laughed at something on a forum. Unless it's really funny, like Nader taking the election away from the idiot, in which case it would be ROFL If something is so funny you can't control yourself, like the traitor saluting at the democrat convention and saying he was reporting for duty, then you would use ROFLMAO.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"thinks you really believe that"

You're mistake there is believing I care what other people think. I care what I think and I write with as exact words as I can (except I have bad eyesight and sometimes I pick the wrong word from the spellcheck).

"You argued for two people who were wanted by the Federal Government. "

That's possible. What you are leaving out is what I argued. I argued you don't shoot a boy while he's running away and you don't run tanks into a building containing women and children unless you can prove imminent danger.

I'll very often argue in favor of people wanted by law enforcement. EVERY American accused deserves a fair trial unless he poses immanent danger.. NO American deserves to be shot in the back. Guilty, not guilty, caught on video tape, live on webcam, whatever. Period. End of story.

Porchee, doesn't being what you semi-literate liberals mistakenly call a fascist give you the willys? You are to the right of Dick Cheney on this one.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 4 years, 9 months ago

Germany, late 1930's

Economic depression, massive financial distress, opposing political parties, the Communist party and the National Socialist German Workers Party, gangs of thugs out to "cure" the social evils (Brown Shirts) beatings and murder in the streets, constant danger and threats to anyone who opposed either group, appearance of charismatic leader (furher in German), victory for National Socialists by ousting President Hindenburg, you know the rest.

Could it deteriorate to this here? You be the judge. Limbaugh and his ilk are promoting it.

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"You sure know a lot about your "next door neighbor"."

They are our neighbors and our friends (maybe in your world you don't become friends with your neighbors). We sit, we talk. We have cookouts and have gotten to know each other very well. We agree to disagree about that stupid T bus.

"Again, you have to deny what Koresh was doing"

No, I can ignore the existence of Koresh. He is irrelevant to the federal government killing women and children. Now if you could PROVE at any time during the siege that he was molesting a child, then you send in trained men (not tanks) to work their way into the house and terminate the threats. And yes, men that would and could go in without hesitating, terminate the threat and not kill the women and children exist. They work every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There is no reason other than malicious incompetence and probably hatred that Reno didn't send in men of such caliber and instead chose a tank and incendiary devices.

"The "you're gay" is a nice touch too."

A: Why would I call you gay? I think you are misquoting. B: Why would being called gay be a nice touch? C:Being called a conservative by a closet right-winger like you is pretty confusing. D: I'm surprised you haven't called me gay.

Graczyk 4 years, 9 months ago

Can't porch_person and Liberty275 just get a room and get the grudge luvin' over with?

feeble 4 years, 9 months ago

not sure if it's already been mentioned, but the Washington Post reported that the Alabama militia leader, Mike Vanderboegh, who call for all the brick throwing has been out of work and on disability for years, for health causes related to congestive heart failure. He gets insurance through his wife, who works full time for a forklift manufacturing company.

Rebelling against the Government when you're sucking on the Government's teat = epic fail.

tomatogrower 4 years, 9 months ago

"Now if you could PROVE at any time during the siege that he was molesting a child, then you send in trained men (not tanks) to work their way into the house and terminate the threats. And yes, men that would and could go in without hesitating, terminate the threat and not kill the women and children exist. They work every day in Iraq and Afghanistan."

So you are defending the coward, the guy responsible for the 2nd worse terrorist attack in the US, because the federal police made a mistake. The kids that were killed on Koresh's compound were killed by their bimbo mothers, who could have taken their kids out at anytime. McVeigh killed children in a place where their parents thought they were safe. They were protecting their children. Koresh's ignorant followers didn't want to protect their children. They were dirt bag parents.

camper 4 years, 9 months ago

These acts are indeed disturbing. In fact they could indicate a trend that I noticed starting around campaign time. It is that element that has been a part of history. Things like the ugliness of the civil rights era, as a poster pointed above the German era between the great World Wars, our own civil war, McCarthyism, Stalin, etc.

Some of it we may now see in our personal lives, other than what we read or the news we watch. In my case, I had a falling out with a friend of about 15 years. I always knew he had some crazy philosophies, but I shrugged them off because it was interesting conversation and there was some truth to a very fractional degree. But I finally began to counter some of his arguments and he would not have it. Ironic that some of his ideaologies are more prevalent than I thought. Here is a list of outlandish things my friend "Joe" has said over the years. Does he remind you of anyone you know:

  • 99% of all college professors are communists
  • Smoking is good for you because it has niacin and it also increases lung capacity
  • Smoking does not cause cancer
  • The Jews had it no worse than all Europeans during WWII
  • Obama is not a United States citizen
  • Palin is the most refreshing politician he has seen in his lifetime
  • Flossing and brushing your teeth is bad oral hygiene
  • Roosevelt was a Socialist and has done more harm to our country than any other President
  • Keynes is wrong on every point
  • Dogs understand English but can't speak it
  • Asbestos is not harmful
  • Asbestos would have prevented the World Trade centers from collapsing
  • Fluoride in our drinking water is very harmful
  • 911 was a government conspiracy
  • Bill Clinton is a war criminal
  • Doctors can only do you harm
  • Antibiotics are useless and unproven
  • Government sponsored projects have not ever yielded one positive innovation or outcome
  • Progressives are the biggest threat to mankind
  • Ayn Rand is a great writer (ok this is true....just not my cup of tea)
  • The Waco incident was a governmental conspiracy
  • We are not currently in a recession. The democrats are saying this so the can get elected
  • Joe the plumber is true on every point
  • The housing loan and banking crisis was caused soley by the Clinton Administration
  • Global warming is not true

For the sake of space I'll leave off. But I did my part. I try to contact my friend without getting any reply. Sad to say he is represents a lot of the craziness I now see. Does anyone know someone like this too?

Liberty275 4 years, 9 months ago

"So you are defending the coward, the guy responsible for the 2nd worse terrorist attack in the US, because the federal police made a mistake."

First off, work on reading comprehension. Stay focused. Words have meanings.

I'm going to try and say this very simply. I hope you can understand the words. If English is not your first language, go get help now. OK? Ready?

I haven't said a word about McVeigh or referenced his actions. But I will. For the act of killing innocent humans, he was put to death, and I am glad he was put to death. He deserved to be put to death for killing innocent humans with a truck filled with explosives. The government did the correct thing by allowing him a fair trial, convicting him based on factual evidence, sentencing him to death, and killing him. I am happy he is dead. He deserved to die.

Given the chance, I would have pressed the button to begin the process of his death without a second thought.

If that sounds like a defense to you, I certainly hope you never get a job as a public defender.

"So you are defending the coward, the guy responsible for the 2nd worse terrorist attack in the US, because the federal police made a mistake."

No, I'm saying the mistake should have never been made and Janet Reno is responsible for signing off on the tactics that led to the mistakes.

"bimbo mothers" What is it about you left wingers that is attracted to the word "bimbo"?

"McVeigh killed children in a place where their parents thought they were safe." I've not heard that before. Which investigation asserts that Koresh killed the women and children?

"Koresh's ignorant followers didn't want to protect their children. They were dirt bag parents."

Being ignorant and being a dirtbag is no reason to kill people and their children.

"They were protecting their children."

I'm going to take it you mean the fed was protecting the children even though your paragraph doesn't make sense. You are closer to having a point than porchee, but the fact remains the government killed women and children. I've never said they were killed purposely, but the rules of engagement approved by Janet Reno against American citizens were the catalyst for everything that happened after the attempt to serve the warrant. You feel free to hold your government to an "Its OK the kids are dead because the feds made a mistake" standard. I think it should be a little higher.

Have a seat over on the right . Say hello to porchee.

whats_going_on 4 years, 9 months ago

Clearly, all the violence about this is helping the situation at hand.

I'm giving up on anyone ever agreeing on anything in this fcked up country...with every suggestion, there are more crazy a*holes in this world who have to disagree with it to the point of resorting to violence...like that will EVER HELP ANYONE. Turning against each other is the answer...lets just all kill each other, start over. Maybe the next batch of humans on earth will actually be civilized.

independant1 4 years, 9 months ago

Where's the beef? A difference of opinion is what makes horse racing and missionaries. (Will Rogers)

independant1 4 years, 9 months ago

Nasty, Racist thought and behavior crosses the isle equally. Republican bad, Democrat good is just as fallacious as Republican Good, Democrat bad.

competing ideologies

igby 4 years, 9 months ago

As soon as the dust all settles, we will learn the truth about these so call vandals!

There all Dems believe it or not!

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