Archive for Wednesday, March 24, 2010

House approves concealed carry on campus

Viewed through the front arches of Spooner Hall is Dyche Hall, right of center. At left, in the distance, is Danforth Chapel and Fraser Hall.

Viewed through the front arches of Spooner Hall is Dyche Hall, right of center. At left, in the distance, is Danforth Chapel and Fraser Hall.

March 24, 2010, 11:00 a.m. Updated March 24, 2010, 12:00 p.m.

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Campus concealed carry bill passes in House

The Kansas House passed a bill Wednesday that would allow people to carry concealed weapons with proper licensing on the KU campus. The university says the bill goes against its safety policies and practices. Enlarge video

Kansas University would need a security fence around it and metal detectors in each building.

Or the university could avoid that expense by allowing people with licenses to carry concealed weapons to take them on campus.

That would be the choice under a bill the House approved, 65-57, Wednesday.

Rep. Forrest Knox, R-Altoona, says his measure is a way to increase safety. Under House Bill 2685, if a city or state facility has a sign that indicates weapons are prohibited, the building would have to have equipment and personnel to make sure no guns get on the premises. To avoid that expense and hassle, the bill would require city and state facilities to allow concealed carry.

“Is putting a sign up, a meaningful effort” in providing security, Knox asked. “It all comes down to whether you believe allowing concealed carry makes a building more secure or less secure,” he said.

Currently, the regents campuses have a weapons-free policy. Knox said of the regents institutions, “Why are they worried about law abiding citizens” carrying weapons?

Knox said he believes the gunman who killed 32 at Virginia Tech University in 2007 would have been stopped more quickly if someone else had been carrying a concealed weapon.

But Reginald Robinson, president and chief executive officer of the Kansas Board of Regents, disagreed with Knox.

“It is our firm belief that allowing weapons on campus would significantly increase the risk of violence and harm to students, faculty and others, rather than making anyone safer,” Robinson said.

In addition to the Kansas Board of Regents, the bill was opposed by the League of Kansas Municipalities, Kansas Association of Counties, Kansas Peace Officers Association, Kansas Highway Patrol and Kansas Association of Police Chiefs.

In addition to Knox, the bill was supported by the National Rifle Association and Kansas Rifle Association.

The measure now goes to the Senate for consideration. Knox said he doesn’t believe there is enough time in the legislative session for the Senate to give the bill attention, but said he hopes to push for the measure next year.

Comments

frank mcguinness 5 years, 4 months ago

Brilliant, allow emotionally unstable kids to cary guns to class.

9070811 5 years, 4 months ago

Opponents included the Kansas Board of Regents, League of Kansas Municipalities, the Kansas Association of Counties, the Kansas Peace Officers Association, the Kansas Highway Patrol and the Kansas Association of Police Chiefs.

aka... those who have to deal with the potentially, disastrous, consequences.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 4 months ago

to now, violent criminals have known that such places are "free fire zones" and they don't have to worry about an armed populus.
note recent rise of robberies/rapes on/around KU campus.
give the women "equalizers" and give others weapons.

as to "emotionally unstable" typical antigun hysterian.
apparently choosing to be ignorant of CC requirements.

try again, your first try flopped.

mom_of_three 5 years, 4 months ago

I'm not sure a student wearing a gun would fit in some of those seats at KU! Course it would require that students would pull up their pants. BG - now what if someone has a concealed carry license and then goes nuts (like psychosis or depression) - how is that handled? Does their family turn them in? Just asking.

Not that I am arguing, but can't perfectly sane people go temporarily insane?

Kontum1972 5 years, 4 months ago

you see lots of students at the pawn shops buying weapons......wanna pack a weapon? try the US military....they could use the extra shooters...in the hills of afghanistan

steveguy 5 years, 4 months ago

Great this has been needed for a long time.

Rex Russell 5 years, 4 months ago

Tom S. could find an evil Obama connection with a pudding cup.

somedude20 5 years, 4 months ago

ok, let me get this right, for the last year, people have been saying that there is an epidemic of drinking on campus (over and under age) so now they are going to throw guns in the mix? Wow! Young kids (only have to be 21 to get a gun) at an age where being away from home for the first time, able to drink more, or drink more for the first time and "experiment" with drugs (while being young and full of bravado). Go back to banning lighters!

gogoplata 5 years, 4 months ago

We let these emotionally unstable kids carry guns in Iraq, we let emotionally unstable cops carry guns. I'm all for concealed carry on campus.

gogoplata 5 years, 4 months ago

Kansas Board of Regents, League of Kansas Municipalities, the Kansas Association of Counties, the Kansas Peace Officers Association, the Kansas Highway Patrol and the Kansas Association of Police Chiefs.

3 of the 6 mentioned here already carry guns. So maybe they should have to check their guns at the door when they go on campus.

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

"unless the building had adequate security measures, such as electric scanners"

You mean, like at the legislature, where these bozos who passed this bill work? What a screaming, steaming pile of hypocrisy. If it is good for our students to be around the guns, why not the legislature? Seriously. What a bunch of pandering, self-serving pukes.

This isn't to say that allowing C&C folks to carry on campuses -- or the legislature -- is necessarily a bad thing. I personally have no problem with C&C folks (and feel that all gun owners should go through the same process) just see the legislators voting on something that won't actually affect where they work, only the work places of others. That is hypocrisy in its purest and most blatant form.

average 5 years, 4 months ago

@beatrice -

I came here to say exactly the same thing. Good enough for other state employees, good enough for legislators.

And, like you, I really don't care that damned much one way or the other about it. Probably stop kids from pulling pranks that make popping noises, but other than that, meh. The hypocrisy is galling, though.

KSManimal 5 years, 4 months ago

rooster (anonymous) says… "Brilliant, allow emotionally unstable kids to cary guns to class."

This faulty logic is based on the assumption that the emotionally unstable kid will think "oh, I would go in and shoot up the place, but since I'd be violating concealed carry laws, I guess I won't".

Criminals don't give a rat's rectum whether or not they are breaking the law. That's why we call them "criminals". How many of them think "oh, I was gonna hold up that gas station....but since I can't walk in with a concealed weapon without breaking the law, I guess I won't".

Remember when CC first passed and all the anti-gun folks said there would be shoot-outs in the streets? Still waiting for those shoot-outs......

MyName 5 years, 4 months ago

No one said there'd be shootout that I recall, KSM. What I do remember saying is that there are some places where firearms shouldn't be brought to. Schools, Government Buildings, Bars, and Universities are pretty much right at the top of the list.

Even the sponsor of this stupid legislation recognizes that fact, but he acts like there should be some sort of loophole. "Well the crazy people are going to bring theirs to town, so why shouldn't I?" is the most idiotic justification for legislation I have ever heard. We don't right laws to protect from the boogeyman. If the legislator in question is really concerned about the safety of University students, why not sponsor a bill to fund more University police?

average 5 years, 4 months ago

Again, I'm mostly indifferent. It does make getting hold of a firearm a little easier, though.

Go sweep up the big hall of Budig after a full class. Always about 50 bags and purses left behind. Convince, say, 5% of parents that they need their daughter carrying and, hey, free gun every day.

50YearResident 5 years, 4 months ago

From a comment above. rooster (anonymous) says… Brilliant, allow emotionally unstable kids to cary guns to class.

Rooster, we send 18 year olds to wars, don't you think a 21 year old could also be responsible for carring a weapon? They could be one and the same person, could be a 21 year old vet from the Afganistan war?

tao7 5 years, 4 months ago

you republicans are a bunch of knuckleheads!!

Crystal Patterson 5 years, 4 months ago

I don't know anything about registering for a CC weapon, are they required to take gun safety classes? Even if they are, I know I would not feel comfortable sitting in a large lecture hall knowing there are people carrying weapons. Just because someone has a weapon to protect themselves doesn't mean the situation would immediately be under control, really it just opens up the possiblity of collateral damage.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

Universities are Free Fire Zones. The idea that because guns are not allowed on campus, that nuts won't bring them worked SOOOO well in VA Tech. VA Tech was put on a pedastal in regards to the idea of a gun free campus.

What Free Fire Zones are, are places were nuts can go with their guns and shoot people, who legally are not allowed to carry weapons. (VA Tech, Fort Hood) being good examples. Had the government allowed soldiers to carry weapons on base, do you think that nut would have shot as many people as he did? Do you guesstimate that the VA Tech shooter would have been able to walk through the halls shooting people?

The facts are responsible concealed carry permit holders could have stopped those MASSACRES before they had even started. Free Fire Zones in idealistic naive terms do work quite well. Problem is this world we live in is not idealistic, there are wolves out there that will strike at the sheep whenever they get a chance. It is up to the civilians sheepdogs to defend the sheep. Responsible CC saves lives. For once(I am a democrat) republicans are not being ignorant, it is the liberal dems who have no idea what reality is.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

When there are seconds between a matter of life and death, the police are minutes away.

somedude20 5 years, 4 months ago

"Rooster, we send 18 year olds to wars, don't you think a 21 year old could also be responsible for carring a weapon? They could be one and the same person, could be a 21 year old vet from the Afganistan war"

Yes there are vets at KU but you can not compare someone who signs up to be a student the same as joining the military. For one, people enlisting go in knowing that weapons and war are part of the deal and that they may have to fire their weapon at someone where as a college kid does not sign up for that.Second, recruits recieve countless weeks learing to be responsible for and to handle said weapon. Thrid, it is rather hard to draw your weapon from the armory when you are drunk late on a Saturday night unlike the drunk college kid who conveniently can draw their weapon when drunk with a cc. What happens when someone on the campus with a cc does not take kindly to a mouthy drunk college kid and shoots them? Swearing at someone is not a reason to pull a weapon! Yes, people will say that it could save a life if someone with a weapon comes across someone with a cc but those odds are not great. I have not heard of too many murders at KU in a while just every day crime and overly drunk kids. I think it is a bad idea

whats_going_on 5 years, 4 months ago

Dont like it at all. Even if a "stable" person were to bring it to class, sat down and an "unstable" kid saw it, they could easily just grab it. Chances are slim, but I don't like this at all. Not at all.

aequitas 5 years, 4 months ago

Happy - If there is an armed student on campus that decided to go on a shooting spree, and then all 30 students who are packing heat that day coupled with their CC license, decide to try and stop that student, what to prevent them in their adrenaline fueled judgment from mistakenly believing that one of their CC brethren is actually the killer, and shooting that individual? How are the police to tell the difference?

What's to prevent a CC gun accidentally going off in class and killing someone? Don't say it can't happen.

Also there is a big difference between the trained soldiers at Fort Hood and a freshman sitting through COMS 130.

I'm all for Second Amendment, but let's be realistic. I would invite anyone that has sat through a class in a University setting, and believes they would feel safer with guns in the room to join the debate, because I sure wouldn't.

Orwell 5 years, 4 months ago

Seung-Hui Cho would be pleased. His concealed carry at Virginia Tech took out about three dozen Americans. If half a dozen or so armed students had tried to return fire in crowded classrooms I'm guessing the total would have been higher.

BigAl 5 years, 4 months ago

I assume this includes Memorial Stadium and Allen Fieldhouse?

This just might be the dumbest idea I have heard in a very long time. Just read who the proponents are and who the opponents are. You can either side with several law enforcement agencies or the National Rifle Association and some State Representative from Altoona.

Crazy....

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

Tom: 'This is my rifle. This is my Gun. This is for shooting. This is for fun.' Excellent scene from an excellent movie."

As I recall, one of the people who spoke that line ended up killing his sargeant and himself -- with his gun. In this fictionalized tale you admire so much, think of all the guns they had at hand and even the military couldn't stop this one person. Are you sure you want to use this movie as support of your pro-gun stance, a movie with an unstable character who kills someone and himself with a gun? Brilliant.

I think your continued, seething anger at being an American is starting to eat away at your brain.

BigDog 5 years, 4 months ago

Orwell - Cho did not have a concealed carry permit ..... you are portrying this very inaccurately.

For those with all these fears ..... show me events where these accidental shootings have happened involving people with concealed carry permits.

I can show you at least two incidents in Topeka where the person with a concealed carry permit stopped the armed from killing someone.

d_prowess 5 years, 4 months ago

I agree with the poster that said many of the "accidents" that were supposed to happen when CC became legal in KS didn't seem to happen (or at least that I have read). However, it still just doesn't sit well with me to have some of the 18-21 crowd on campus carrying. Sure, there is a good chance that the only ones that follow through are those very committed, safety first folks, but there is just something about the age and environment of the college campus that makes me uneasy.
And I agree as some have said that people of this age are fighting in wars, but I would argue many of those individuals are more responsible given their environment and training than the students on a college campus may be. If this does pass though, I still don't see shootouts increasing either.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

"Dont like it at all. Even if a "stable" person were to bring it to class, sat down and an "unstable" kid saw it, they could easily just grab it. Chances are slim, but I don't like this at all. Not at all." "Concealed" means "concealed". Moot "point", but "thanks" for playing.

timetospeakup 5 years, 4 months ago

This is good news. Anybody willing to break the laws about murder doesn't care about breaking a few gun carry laws along the way.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

beatrice (anonymous) says…

As I recall, one of the people who spoke that line ended up killing his sargeant and himself -- with his gun. In this fictionalized tale...

I think we can stop it there. I'm pretty sure marine recruits are not given live rounds for their rifles unless they are on the firing range. And once there, all rounds are accounted for before and after practice. Any miscount to the ammunition or ammo found on a recruit's person would result in immediate removal from boot camp after a period in the brig.

As for the CCW debate - What's wrong with law-abiding citizens carrying within this law? To get a CCW license is hard enough and the smallest infraction of any laws can cause it to be revolted. People who have this license probably don't even have parking or speeding tickets. Why are you all so scared of them for? No, this law won't stop the "crazies" from adding themselves to the long list of horrific acts done, but if it saved one person, just one, by allowing a CCW person to use their gun, then why not let it pass?

M. Lindeman 5 years, 4 months ago

beatrice (anonymous) says… "unless the building had adequate security measures, such as electric scanners"

You mean, like at the legislature, where these bozos who passed this bill work? What a screaming, steaming pile of hypocrisy. If it is good for our students to be around the guns, why not the legislature? Seriously. What a bunch of pandering, self-serving pukes.

This isn't to say that allowing C&C folks to carry on campuses -- or the legislature -- is necessarily a bad thing. I personally have no problem with C&C folks (and feel that all gun owners should go through the same process) just see the legislators voting on something that won't actually affect where they work, only the work places of others. That is hypocrisy in its purest and most blatant form.

March 24, 2010 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

average (anonymous) says… @beatrice -

I came here to say exactly the same thing. Good enough for other state employees, good enough for legislators.

And, like you, I really don't care that damned much one way or the other about it. Probably stop kids from pulling pranks that make popping noises, but other than that, meh. The hypocrisy is galling, though.

rdragon writes:
Why should they have too, there just following the lead from there mentors in Washington. Look at the recent bill just passed, there excluded from it. I personally believe if your a C,C holder you should be able to carry in most cases where ever you go.

M. Lindeman 5 years, 4 months ago

porch_person (anonymous) says… I'm speechless. Out of all the things education in Kansas needs and concealed firearms tops the list?

We embarrass ourselves nationally doing stuff like this, I tell you.

rdragon writes:

Please enlighten us on how this a national embarrassment? Your statement was just sorry to say was just stupid.

M. Lindeman 5 years, 4 months ago

whats_going_on (anonymous) says… Dont like it at all. Even if a "stable" person were to bring it to class, sat down and an "unstable" kid saw it, they could easily just grab it. Chances are slim, but I don't like this at all. Not at all.

rdragon writes:

If the stable kid had a CC permit, then the unstable one would not see the weapon.

M. Lindeman 5 years, 4 months ago

Orwell (anonymous) says… Seung-Hui Cho would be pleased. His concealed carry at Virginia Tech took out about three dozen Americans. If half a dozen or so armed students had tried to return fire in crowded classrooms I'm guessing the total would have been higher.

rdragon writes:

Did the thought ever crossed your mind that if there was conceal carry allowed on V. Tech campus that that shotting may have never accured? Slow down and muster up just a bit of common sense, really some of the goof ball statements I am seeing over this is just stupid. I really wonder if very many of you get out of your parents basement at all. Spend some time in the real world and grow up.

yourworstnightmare 5 years, 4 months ago

Awesome. Professors can finally arm themselves. This will keep classrooms civil, orderly places where true learning can occur. Or else...

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

aequitas (anonymous) says… Happy - If there is an armed student on campus that decided to go on a shooting spree, and then all 30 students who are packing heat that day coupled with their CC license, decide to try and stop that student, what to prevent them in their adrenaline fueled judgment from mistakenly believing that one of their CC brethren is actually the killer, and shooting that individual? How are the police to tell the difference?

What's to prevent a CC gun accidentally going off in class and killing someone? Don't say it can't happen.

Also there is a big difference between the trained soldiers at Fort Hood and a freshman sitting through COMS 130.

I'm all for Second Amendment, but let's be realistic. I would invite anyone that has sat through a class in a University setting, and believes they would feel safer with guns in the room to join the debate, because I sure wouldn't.

@That nonsense The guidelines for recieving a permit for CC are pretty stiff. It is hard to recieve them, and any really law breaking in the past makes it impossible to get one. People who the government allows to be CC permit holders are more responsible than their age bracket, and know what to do as adults. The key term used throughout the CC debate is responsible.

A gun in a modern hoster, does not accidently go off. You don't just shove the gun in your waist area, you have the gun in a holster desgined for CC. Accidental firings mostly occur when an individual who has no purpose owning a firearm, mistakening cleans a weapon that is loaded. Or brandishs a loaded firearm while believing it is unloaded at friends/family as a joke. Holes in your arguement abound, considering to recieve CC you have to be a responsible gun owner and any of such people, know how to avoid ADs(accidental discharges). Additionally, guns have these amazing devices on them known as "safeties" these devices block the trigger from being depressed to fire. Additionally any of the above mentioned responsible gun owners knows how to properly handle a gun, to not put their finger in the trigger guard unless firing.

What is the difference between soldiers and a freshman(thanks for freshman, you helped my arguement soo much)? They can be the exact same age and maturity level. Additionally to have CC permit they are required to go through hours of gun safety classes. Most CC holders are lifelong gun owners who have TRAINED thoroughly in the use of their weapons.

Additionally, any CC permit holder knows the value of target recognition and collatoral damage. Trained gun users don't take shots unless they know the person in question is the shooter, and additionally they won't take shots when the targets background is laced with innocents.

ksu89 4 years, 10 months ago

Yours, in my opinion, the most important comment on this page.

You present the one argument that those such as somedude20 and aequitas fail to argue against, the fact that CCH licensees go through training (the guidelines of which are created by the same state that allows their co-workers to carry), and in general, train on their own (I personally have trained for over 100 hours in the last 6 months and fired over 2000 rounds).

I am a 21 year old student at K-State and I carry my handgun whenever I can carry it legally. Unfortunately, I feel as though I am forced to put my safety (and the safety of my friends and colleagues) into the hands of people who either aren't there, such as campus security, or in the hands of people who incorrectly believe that a "gun-free zone" sign will stop someone who doesn't care about the consequences of his/her actions.

Further, everyday that I see another school shooting, I imagine receiving a text message from the K-State Security System saying, "there's an active shooter on campus....um...sorry you can't protect yourself, please close your eyes, and imagine your happy place. We'll get to you as soon as we can....the current wait time is - 15 minutes."

Regarding guns in classrooms, as someone stated above, if I were to actually "Carry Concealed" in class, no one would know that I'm carrying. As an example, I carry on a daily basis, thus I've had many opportunities to test my concealment skills. In this time, I have not had one instence where anyone has known that I have been carrying unless I let them know (which only happens with my family).

As another point (pertinent to somedude20's previous statements), I have also stopped drinking alcohol altogether, in an effort to be safer with my weapons and to allow me to carry , (as it is illegal to carry while intoxicated). If somedude20 had taken the CCW course, he would know that.

I personally hope that I will be able to carry my weapon on campus, but in doing so I realize that additional responsibility will be "carried" with me on campus. If you met me on the street, you would think to yourself, "Wow, what a responsible young man...he gets up every morning at 4:30 am, studies 6 hours a day, has a 3.75 gpa, and doesn't drink alcohol; he really has his stuff together." At no point, would you think of the 1911 at my hip (which has 3 mechanical safeties, plus 3 physical safeties - my mind, my finger, and my holster).

To the Anti-CCW folks, if you're sitting at a K-State football game, or at a McDonalds when an "emotionally unstable kid...or older person for that matter" decides to open fire on unsuspecting citizens, I hope that I'm there to protect you and your right to your opinions. But please, don't infringe on my right to protect myself and those I care for.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

The anti-CC debate is riddled with ignorance. As a pro-2nd amendment Dem. I am sorry to say most of the liberal dem folks on here railing against this CC law, have never fired a weapon, and futhermore have no idea what laws and statistics are out there. CC permits in an area do not lead to increased gun violence, the people who will commit gun crimes will commit them no matter the gun laws. Responsible gun owning citizens are the backbone this country is built on.

aequitas 5 years, 4 months ago

Happy- “People who the government allows to be CC permit holders are more responsible than their age bracket, and know what to do as adults.”

Would you bet your life on this big assumption?

You did not understand the depth of my comparison so let me state what the difference is between a freshmen and a soldier, even if they are the same age and maturity, and both had had extensive gun training. It is the mentality of what happens when the bullets start to fly. Soldiers are expected to act in this situation and have been trained to do so. Effective target acquisition and marksmanship is just one small point of offensive or defensive tact maneuvers in a fire fight. Maturity and judgment are two different animals.

I’ll concede on the argument of it accidentally going off (you have good points on that), but I would ask that you address the issue of law enforcement having to positively identify a gun carrying suspect from whatever other students that may be carrying a gun legally.

Once again I am all for the Second Amendment and CC, but I would prefer guns not be in a university setting given the overall demographic.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

You should never write with a pencil. Some "unstable" person might take it away from you and drive it into your ear.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

Ok, you aswell bring up good points. The mentality of soldiers are different then most non-soldiers.

CC permit holders are not carrying a weapon just for themselves. Most CC holders believe in their ability to be there for their fellow man when things like VA Tech/Fort Hood, or any number of crazed nut situations happen. Carrying a weapon on your person everyday is not easy, having a 1-2 lb chunk of metal on you isnt ideal, but you do it just in case you can save a life.

And about police, they are trained to not shoot until fired upon, and CC owners know when police come up on you you are required to follow their orders in regards to putting down their weapon. Police like the military are subject to similar rules of engagement. CC permit holders know when police come to safety their weapon and place it on the ground. The crazed nutcase will tend to fire upon police when approached by them.

CC permit holders believe they have a responsibility to their fellow man to defend them, but they also have resonsibilities towards police. Police well make their presense known when entering a situation and then visually determine who is a threat and who, in this case, is a bystander attempting to defend others.

Yes I would bet my life on that assumption(KU student). I know the stringent requirements for concealed carry. If ever a situation occers on campus like VA Tech I will be more than happy to have CC permit holders on campus.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

Aequitas,

Those with a CC permit must carry said permit at all times, even when they are not carrying a weapon. In the instance you are referring, a CC permit holder will comply with law enforcement and lay down body and arms, announcing that they have a permit. A gun carrying suspect will do one of three things: They'll shoot at the cops, they'll run from the cops, or they'll surrender, even if by suicide.

aequitas 5 years, 4 months ago

Happy- how about a compromise? (novel concept - I know)

What if as a stipulation to a student with a CC license on campus is they have to notify a central adminstrator on what particular days they would be carrying thier firearm? This would allow the school to know where the guns are located per that student's class schedule, and thus better utilized during an emergency if need be. This would also allow the school to notify law enforcment where they could have potential allies and use them for thier strategic advantage. These students could also be required to be part of a law enforcment class or ROTC, or whomever is interested in that line of work.

I just think that in a population that spends much of its time in close proximity with one another, at the very least we should be keeping track of who is carrying what.

BigAl 5 years, 4 months ago

Seriously, if this is such a good thing, why are all of these law enforcement agencies against it? Do they not trust the licensing procedures? If CC is hear to protect the people, why wouldn't these agencies be in favor?

Charles L Bloss Jr 5 years, 4 months ago

Just because the head of a law enforcement organization is against it does not mean street cops are. I have communicated with a backer of this legislation, and I agree with it. With all of the school and campus shootings we have had in the past few years it is obvious that bad people know a gun free zone is open season on everyone inside. How many people can they kill before law enforcement arrives, a lot. If these young people have a concealed carry permit, they should be allowed to protect their lives, and those of others on college campuses. There are about a good third of prohibited places in the concealed carry statute that should not be there. They were put in the bill to appease people on the fence to get their vote. That bill needs to be cleaned up, and one of the prohibited places that should be the first to go is on college campuses. Thank you, Lynn

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

BigAl there is something to be said about a monopoly on power. 1st in other states where CC permits are more freely given, police like the idea, because it makes their jobs easier.

aequitas many CC permit holders do not like to bring undue attention unto themselves. While the idea is not a terrible compromise, I assume it wouldn't fly. Im not entirely opposed to the idea though, my main concern would be an abuse of that information by the administrators. Maybe a teacher who doesn't like the idea gets ahold of the list and grades CC permit students harshly. Personally the idea of being on a short list is kind of worrisome. If there was a full-proof way to restrict said list to only administrators and only in times where its use was required, I don't see why not.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

Perhaps they're worried about their job security. Take Switzerland, for example. They have a minimal police force as the whole population is armed and allowed to carry.

Seeing as how gun laws are already in the US, even with the 2nd amendment, I doubt we would ever return to an armed populace, so the police won't lose their jobs.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Four police officers, all armed, were shot and killed in a donut shop last year. If armed and trained police officers didn't stop a shooting, how the hell is an armed student population going to do the trick? That shooter knew he was firing into an armed crowd, and it didn't prevent a thing.

An armed man entered a church in Emporia 20 years ago. Nobody there was armed. He shot one person and then was subdued - by being hit in the head with a hymnal and physically attacked.

Do I think a group of unarmed churchgoers are better prepared than police officers? No. But I also don't think students with a gun safety course are better prepared than police officers.

Jim Phillips 5 years, 4 months ago

You would think the legislature would have learned something from the ever-present "Dodge City" type shootouts that are happening every day, the climbing homicide and violent crime rates in areas where concealed carry has been passed, and.....

Oh, wait! Those never happened! Never mind!

Graczyk 5 years, 4 months ago

Bang, bang, you're dead. Hole in your head.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

The Swiss also require a year of military training for their armed citizens, jadkansas. At taxpayer expense.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

geekyhost, thank you for bringing actual events into light. I will look at each simply.

About the four police officers... They were targeted by a nut, while in a doughnut shop enjoying a break. They had no time to react to the gunman, he walked in not being really noticed, walked up to the police and started firing. He wasn't shooting into a crowd, he was standing feet away from police sitting in a booth.

The Emporia church case(a similiar case to the pope assassination attempt). In close proximity, you can overpower someone with enough bodies. But in the past events were it was more open, a shooter can easily take down 1-2 charging people.

Again it isn't an armed student body. It is an armed citizenry. And even then, it will be few people.

Also with the Emporia event, I am not familiar with it, was it a pistol used or a bolt action rifle? A month ago a nut went into a middle school parking lot firing a bolt action rifle at kids(hunting rifle). Bolt action rifles as much easier to assault because of the time taken to reload them(actuate the bolt).

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

The ignorance or sheer stupidity displayed by the last two posters is analogous to many posters on this topic.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

geekyhost (anonymous) says…

The Swiss also require a year of military training for their armed citizens, jadkansas. At taxpayer expense.

Very true, but it goes without saying. They have an armed citizenry, which in turn lowers the need for a police force.

And, really, what military isn't at taxpayer expense.

Clark Coan 5 years, 4 months ago

Campuses are such a dangerous place, right? The NRA pushed this through with no evidence that campuses are high crime areas.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

A suicidal 18 year old, would have no ability to maintain or even GET a CC permit.

Your point, if there was one, is moot. G'day sir.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

QuiviraTrail

Campuses are dangerous places. Excluding the events of VA Tech and other such college massacred. The instances of armed robbery on the KU campus are going up. Not to mention rape.

Joe Hyde 5 years, 4 months ago

This is just the NRA and their Kansas legislature buddies trying to increase the odds that their kids will get passing grades in college.

"Hi Professor Smith! Thank you for agreeing to visit with me after class about that F you gave me on the mid-term exam. But before we get to all that, let me show you my new Glock .40 cal. Here, take a look down the barrel of this baby. Impressive, huh? You've been scolding me in class for how much I fidget in my chair. Hey, you'd fidget, too, if you kept one of these tucked in your hip pocket! Now, about that F...."

50YearResident 5 years, 4 months ago

The following information is for those of you whom know nothing about concealed carry or firearms. First, to obtain a concealed carry license the applicant must be 21 years of age or older. That eliminates 75% of the students, all 18, 19, and 20 year olds are inelgible. Second, the CC law and the license holders are now in the third year of legal carry. How many bad incidents or shootings has anyone on this board heard about or witnessed happening in the State of Kansas? There has not been any in Douglas County listed on any of the police records. As for gun safety, guns do not discharge accidently and anyone familiar with guns knows they are safe to handle.

Charles Jones 5 years, 4 months ago

I so wish all these gunnies would grow up. It isn't like on TV children. Anyone fearful or angry enough to conceal carry ought to be considered risky.

Want some truth about Conceal Carry? Check out http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm. Of course the gunnies will discredit the site. Dealing with facts in a thoughtful fashion just isn't their style.

Happy, a lot of people are the backbone of this country. Even some who feel that the gun lobby is viciously out of control.

RogueThrill 5 years, 4 months ago

How many school shootings have happened on University campuses in Kansas?

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

None, and we would like to keep that likelihood down.

quantum, the backbone of the country is gun owners. Speaking of history, since without those people the United States would still be a colony. And time you get your news/information from a source that shows extreme bias, you are setting yourself to look like a nut yourself.

The website is riddled with bias and no doubt loose "news/journalistic" standards.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

happy_go_lucky - that's kind of the point. The only campus shooters WOULD be nuts. Nobody will have time to prepare, and crazy shooters won't take time to aim or prevent bystanders from also being shot. They'll just shoot.

Arguments that an armed group of citizens would act as disincentive for a nut to go on a shooting spree are silly. And you're right that it would end up being a very small percentage of students that would actually go through the training courses for CC. But would you want to be the first police officer on the scene and have to guess which shooter is the mass murder and which one is the defender?

The Emporia shooter used a semi-automatic and was subdued in the wide-open street after being chased out of the church by an usher. His mistake was reloading instead of just grabbing the next loaded gun in his bag. The dude was seriously creepy. His intent, if I remember correctly, was to dismember every single churchgoer.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

Additionally those numbers are based on the entire US. If you were to compare CC holders with information of the rest of society, you would realize that the rate of those crimes commited by CC permit holders is substantially less than the average.

50YearResident 5 years, 4 months ago

Rogue thrill asks, "How many school shootings have happened on University campuses in Kansas?" The answer is none and the Kansas Legislature wants to keep it that way.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Jadkansas - that's just moving beans from one pot to another. You're paying for government law enforcement either way.

Not to mention that the Swiss have been debating the pro gun stance lately. Seems they've had too many high profile shootings. Oops.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

geeky, yes, there are times when a person or a few could take down a nut, but those are rare and require some tactical sense.

In regards to the police officer statement, that is their job.

And I personally am not saying a CC permit campus prevents massacres like VA Tech. I am saying that the amount of time a nut has to hurt/maim/kill people would be a lot smaller, saving lives.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

On a sidenote, in reference to the section on that webs on mass shootings. Many were not actually using their concealed weapon. Two where white power nuts. Some used Ak-47(not concealed carry guns). Additionally most were people who killed their family in their home... Which in my mind, while extremely tragic, has no actual bearing on concealed carry, besides the offender had a permit.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

Thank you Quantum for proving our point about CC permits. I will thoughfully question the killing listed as the accused strangled his victim. That should not be counted. There's also a listing of a shooter who was permitted to carry as a security guard and another security guard who he claimed was entering the property he was guarding. Do security guards have to go through the same CCW permit requirements? Then there's the listing of a boy who shot and killed his brother with his father's gun (the father was the CC permit holder). Why not list all shootings of this nature and not just those that indirectly involve a permit?

And why are we counting the dismissed and aquitted cases still?

151 deaths over a 3 year period across all of the US. There's over 30,000 CC permit holders in kansas alone. Not really an unstable bunch if you compare it to, say, all of the population and all the deaths caused by firearms.

MyName 5 years, 4 months ago

Again, we have people arguing for something that will not make people safer (unlike say, hiring more police might), to fight a problem that doesn't exist (where are your statistics to show that crime on campus is this huge problem).

Replace: "mythical crazy student on a shooting rampage" with "Dracula" and "concealed carry permit" with "wooden stake" and you can see exactly the kind of protection this law will offer: which is none.

Laws, in and of themselves, do not make people safer. Guns, in and of themselves, do not make people safer, either. It's all about the environment. Are you going to class to learn in a safe place, surrounded by other like minded individuals, or not?

And if someone actually feels as if they need to bring a gun to class in order to feel safe, then you've already lost the safe environment question.

M. Lindeman 5 years, 4 months ago

geekyhost (anonymous) says… Four police officers, all armed, were shot and killed in a donut shop last year. If armed and trained police officers didn't stop a shooting, how the hell is an armed student population going to do the trick? That shooter knew he was firing into an armed crowd, and it didn't prevent a thing.

rdragon writes:

You left out some important facts, those four officers where the target not the other customers. If a fellow customer or customers where armed maybe some of those officers would have lived.

average 5 years, 4 months ago

Again, I fall in the remarkably ambivalent camp on this. Meh.

But, I can't help but feel that the GOP legislators are over-reaching more than just a little bit politically here. I mean, the 15%-20% or so of NRA voters who think this is totally freaking awesome are already rock-solid confirmed GOP voters. Meanwhile (and this is just my sense), a lot of moderate soccer moms who do generally lean Republican will look at this as pretty out there, at best.

But, perhaps a lot state legislators are more worried about being out-right-winged individually than losing moderates.

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

Good point average. GOP -- against health care reform, for guns in schools.

Oh yeah, I can see them riding that slogan to victory.

vega 5 years, 4 months ago

I guess all students will all have A's!! What a bright idea to push up KU GPAs.

Graczyk 5 years, 4 months ago

I'm a guy. I get it. I''m badder than Leroy Brown - and he was double bad if you remember. At least in my own head. I think every little boy plays cowboy sometime during their lives. Thing is, most of us grow up.

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

Yes Tom, because your inability to carry a gun on campus is what stopped you from getting your masters in the past. Sure it is.

I do believe it when you suggest you were too scared to venture outside without being armed at all times. I really do. I'm wondering if you can even wipe yourself without a gun within reach.

codeman321 5 years, 4 months ago

Happy_go_lucky wrote: “having a 1-2 lb chunk of metal on you isnt ideal, but you do it just in case you can save a life.”

*Good thing they make guns that weigh well under a pound :)

JADkansas wrote “Those with a CC permit must carry said permit at all times, even when they are not carrying a weapon”

*You don’t have to carry the permit unless you ARE carrying…

*I’d also like to mention that this would not just apply to students (seeing how several objections focused on ‘kids’ not being responsible enough) it would apply to teachers and any other law-abiding trained concealed carry permit holder as well.

Thanks to everyone who put insightful helpful comments (on both sides of the issue) - it is nice to have a civil discussion and see why people feel one way or the other :)

rcr 5 years, 4 months ago

"jadkansas (anonymous) said…

Those with a CC permit must carry said permit at all times, even when they are not carrying a weapon."

jadkansas, this is an incorrect statement. The following is from the Kansas Attorney General FAQ section on concealed carry. You are only required to carry your license if you are carrying your handgun.

•If I obtain a Kansas CCH license, will I have to carry my CCH license card with me at all times?

o Answer: All CCH licensees will be required to have their CCH license with them at any time they are actually carrying a firearm concealed. Failure to do so could result in the licensee having his/her CCH license suspended or revoked and could result in criminal charges.

CharlesinCharge 5 years, 4 months ago

So much for the conservatives that scream about wasting money. To keep the state buildings secure and gun-free, the state would have to install a lot of security measures. Read this information from the state director of the budget:

The KHP estimates that to comply with the provisions of HB 2685, it would require the following at each facility: a magnetometer and hand wand, 2.00 Law Enforcement Officer FTE positions and 2.00 999-hour temporary Law Enforcement Officer positions. The agency estimates it would require approximately $2.8 million in FY 2011 to bring the 52 buildings in compliance with HB 2685. Any fiscal effect associated with HB 2685 is not reflected in The FY 2011 Governor’s Budget Report.

In addition municipalities and county buildings throughout the state would have to incur additional security expenses to be secure.

triplegoddess13 5 years, 4 months ago

aequitas wanted to hear from someone who attended/s college. Well, that would be me. Working on my masters and proudly have my CCH. I don't carry all the time and I would never agree to tell administration when or where I was with my weapon. I refuse to be used by administration or PD for their purposes in any situation. I will take care of me and mine, according to CCH standards and rules, and identify myself when needed. It will cost money to hire more officers and I doubt that is something anyone wants to do when it comes right down to it. If you have willing CCH students on campuses then let them do what they can to help before officers get there.

Lindsey Buscher 5 years, 4 months ago

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Lindsey Buscher 5 years, 4 months ago

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independant1 5 years, 4 months ago

Bus pass, check Laptop, check Textbook, check Glock, check Extra clip, check

grammaddy 5 years, 4 months ago

Could they please get the alcohol problems on campus cleared up before they start carrying concealed weapons. The two do not mix well.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

Relax and have a popsicle, paulette. It's a cool and fruity treat on a spring day.

tirednhungry1 5 years, 4 months ago

Why conceal the guns, silly legislature? Holsters could be the latest, greatest fashion accessory on Kansas college campuses. Maybe "quick-draw" could become a new collegiate sport!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 4 months ago

The simple fact is that we are a violent culture-- there's a strong undercurrent that violence is an acceptable way to "solve" problems. Don't believe it? Take a look at our massively bloated military and penchant for wars of aggression and occupation. Take a look at the amount of gun violence we endure every year, and watch our teevee shows and movies.

CC isn't going to make that go away-- to the contrary, it reinforces it.

And does anyone think that someone identifiably unstable enough to be denied a concealed carry permit will let that stop them from packing some heat, and using it? That's just nuts. And does anyone really think that the thousands who apply for concealed carry are being adequately screened to make sure that licensees will never use them in a criminal fashion? If you do, that's equally nuts. But that pretty much sums up the National Rifle Ass.

SnakeFist 5 years, 4 months ago

Typical conservative logical: Reduce shootings by allowing more people to carry guns.

Conservatives don't want to provide condoms to teenagers because that might imply approval of sex, but allowing people to carry guns anywhere and anytime somehow doesn't imply approval of using guns to solve disputes.

Bozo said: "we are a violent culture". Gosh, I wonder which came first, the guns or the shootings?

Steve Bunch 5 years, 4 months ago

An alternative suggestion to concealed carry and metal detectors: Make campus a no-clothes zone. Oh yeah, I can hear the legislators now....

lounger 5 years, 4 months ago

Its a scary thought to consider the things coming out of topeka these days. Who in the Fudge would even consider this? Lame ass lawmakers in Kansas-thats who! Wasted tax dollars paying these scary people a salary for these poor desisions.

inquire 5 years, 4 months ago

Did I miss something? How is possible to have a single gun related safety issue without guns? Exactly how is this a good idea? Of course the guys who vote Yes on this work in a building where there are no firearms and fabulous security. I wonder how they would vote if that wasn't the case........

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 4 months ago

Back in the good ole days that conservatives want to return to, even Wyatt Earp made you check your guns at the city limits.

infidel 5 years, 4 months ago

It is unbelievable how much misinformation is posted about this issue. The facts are clear, go to the KSAG's web site and look for yourself what the CCL requirements are, ask a CCL holder or Instructor what they had to sit through and pay to get their license.

The last time I checked a couple of years ago there were over 6,000 non-traditional undergrad students at KU. For those that don't know what that means, it is adults, military, married students etc. There are plenty of responsible people all around us in our everyday lives who have and carry, lawfully concealed guns in Lawrence, and yes some who attend and work on campus.

All the same organizations are against this as were preaching against it when it first was passed, say Armageddon would happen. When was the last shoot out by a CCL holder in town?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 4 months ago

"All the same organizations are against this as were preaching against it when it first was passed, say Armageddon would happen."

We already have Armageddon-- we've had it for centuries. CC is just the expression by the gun freaks that Armageddon is the Permanent American Condition.

whats_going_on 5 years, 4 months ago

"Dont like it at all. Even if a "stable" person were to bring it to class, sat down and an "unstable" kid saw it, they could easily just grab it. Chances are slim, but I don't like this at all. Not at all." "Concealed" means "concealed". Moot "point", but "thanks" for playing.

You know as well as I do that they could be unlikely to stay concealed...when a student is constantly up and down from his seat, rummaging through his bag, etc...

remember_username 5 years, 4 months ago

I wonder if there would be an impact on enrollment? K.U. goes out of its way to recruit highly qualified students from neighboring states. Will the possibility of armed students frighten off the many desirable candidates? What about athletic recruitment? They'll surely have to put detectors at Dole or the Lied Center if they want to continue to attract controversial speakers. I'm convinced the ramifications of this law have not been fully considered. Also, if I see a gun on a student. Do I report it to somebody? Or just assume they have a carry permit.

As for the use of CC as a deterrent to a sufficiently motivated lunatic, that's nuts. The crazies will just switch to bombs and gas if they think there are armed watchers around them. I'd much rather the crazies stick to carrying guns. Considering the condition of some of these old buildings a small bomb would drop the whole thing.

KCsFinest5 5 years, 4 months ago

While as a student this scares me to a certain extent, I also have a large degree of faith that people aren't inherently bad. That being said, I'm OK with this. I agree with the comment that the VT gunman could have been stopped earlier had someone brought a licensed weapon to campus. I trust that screening process is not as flawed as some people think. I don't believe that the bill would have been passed otherwise.

KawHawk 5 years, 4 months ago

Oh, I am SO gonna love going to my next faculty meeting and sitting there cleaning my 9mm ! That should really move that meeting along efficiently !

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

Paulette2, about your glove box statement, you realize it is perfectly legal to have a firearm in your car at anytime? You should educate yourself before making comments.

Sigma 5 years, 4 months ago

College is supposed to be a learning environment and as such a place where you learn facts, figures, philosophies, and responsibility - making mistakes all along the way and learning from your mistakes. Adding guns to that equation just seems dangerous and some of the mistakes that could arise could never be taken back. Just doesn't sound like a good idea.

blackfox 5 years, 4 months ago

Great, guns with kids. What kid has the brain power to determine when or when not to use a gun? They arent adults till they are 21. Heck, if they cant get drunk legally, they shouldnt carry guns.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

It seems the only argument against allowing this to pass involves "Potential Criminal Theory". Does the opposition also feel the same way about themselves when it comes to going from law-abiding citizens to criminals in a flash?

It's a short read. Enjoy. Here's an excerpt from http://www.keepandbeararms.com/NewsArchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=836

"The first thing the potential criminal theory must assume is that people who have no history of violence or crime cannot be trusted any more so than convicted criminals. Those using this argument must further believe that a large percentage of the law-abiding citizens are not of sufficient intelligence or responsibility to be entrusted to adequately lead their own lives and instead the government is a better place to put this faith. Additionally, this presumption relies upon an underlying belief that we are all just waiting to explode and turn into violent criminals through some fundamental flaw in the human character."

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

blackfox (anonymous) says…

Great, guns with kids. What kid has the brain power to determine when or when not to use a gun? They arent adults till they are 21. Heck, if they cant get drunk legally, they shouldnt carry guns.

Yet we can give them guns and have them kill people for us in foreign lands. But they still need to wait until 21 to drink, because that's when they "grow up".

Jimo 5 years, 4 months ago

How is it that the States seem to be contestants in some reality-tv contest for wackiest concentration of nutjobs and Kansas always ends up as a finalist?

blackfox 5 years, 4 months ago

Dont look any more stupid than some of the people who post on this forum, "VERTIGO"!!

KCsFinest5 5 years, 4 months ago

@prolifersforwar

I completely agree with your comment about faith. I feel like Americans don't trust each other anymore. I little more faith in the US would go a long way IMO...

lgreen17 5 years, 4 months ago

OMG I will quit my job at KU if this passes.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

You may want to move somewhere remote as well, lgreen. I'm sure someone on your street owns a gun as well.

Irrational fears are a mental condition. You may want to consult a doctor.

50YearResident 5 years, 4 months ago

For all the posters opposing this Concealed Carry on Campus because of your own ignorance of the Concealed Carry Law and the requirements to be eligble to obtain a license, please go here http://www.ksag.org/home/ , click on concealed carry at the right side of the page and read the laws and requirements completely before you post your next stupid remarks and comments.

Kontum1972 5 years, 4 months ago

shewmon i have never advocated war here...i was in one in 1972 battle of kontum..go look it up..what were u doing at that time?

i dont own a gun..and never will operate one again.....what were u doing in 1972?

Janet Lowther 5 years, 4 months ago

Several businesses around town lost my business when they put up what I call "mass murderers welcome" sign, 'though other folks think they are no gun signs.

I've never quite got back to using those places as often as I did before, even though they have taken down the "mass murderers welcome" sign.

The state universities and public schools are increasingly rare places where dozens could be shot before anyone returns fire.

Governments have repeatedly attempted to disarm their populations, often with calamitous results. It is hard to have a pogrom if the intended victims can shoot back.

Take a look at http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart to see that firearms restrictions are a prerequisite for genocide.

BTW: The historic origin of firearms restrictions in this country trace directly to attempts to disarm blacks.

KawHawk 5 years, 4 months ago

If allowing CC on campus makes us safer, why aren't we requiring that all faculty carry semiautomatic weapons at all times ?

Sure would cut down on the number of complaints from students whining about grades....

grichmo 5 years, 4 months ago

Guns can kill people. You can't deny this fact, regardless of what side of the argument you are on. I believe that the world might even be a better place had guns not been invented. That's not to say people wouldn't still kill other people, but it is a lot harder to many people quickly with a rock, stick or even arrow.

However, until you can ban guns (and I mean ALL of them) what is the point of telling lawful people that they can't carry one? To repeat a point made earlier. Do you honestly think a store with the "no concealed carry" sign on the door will never be robbed by a person with a gun because of the "requirement" to not enter with a gun? Of course not, criminals ARE criminals.

Also, don't just assume that a bunch of CC people will turn a mass murder into a blood bath through the crossfire. They teach you in the training to AVOID the confrontation if possible. I can tell you that if I were in a room where someone began shooting I would leave if possible, and only shoot if I felt that it was my only option. The permit allows me to protect only MYSELF and to some extent my family. While ending a rampaging murder's life might make me a hero, it is technically against the law unless I was directly threatened. Being a hero isn't worth the risk of injuring others or being targeted by other concealed carriers. But, if I was the one being threatened I can promise you that the rampage would end and maybe no one after myself would have to suffer.

Point is bad people carry guns WHERE EVER THEY WANT. Why tell me that there are places that are off limits?

hipper_than_hip 5 years, 4 months ago

"Paulette2, about your glove box statement, you realize it is perfectly legal to have a firearm in your car at anytime? You should educate yourself before making comments"

There's a Lawrence Ordinance (City Code section 14-408 March 2006) that says you can't have a firearm within 200 feet of a bar in Lawrence. There are certain exceptions, like if you're just driving by, or you've just come back from a hunting trip. Remember The Last Call? The LPD made a practice of strolling thru the nearby parking lots looking for guns in plain sight, and several people were arrested for violating the 200 feet rule.

You can't have a concealed firearm in your vehicle unless you have the CCW, and concealed means, for example, under the seat or in the glove box. You can, however, have one on the front seat in plain sight. And while that's not against the law, you may get some unwanted attention from the LPD wanting to know why you need a pistol on the front seat.

lilchick 5 years, 4 months ago

Just want to jump in on this after following the interesting (yet amazingly civil) discussion.

My husband and I have both gone through the CC training course. He decided to get his license, I opted not to. Of the CC permit holders that we know, most shoot several times a month if not more. Most compete in IDPA style shoots, which provide real-life training scenarios and attend at least 2 weekend long workshops a year providing in-depth real life training. It is seen as a responsibility to be prepared and educated....no one wants to be a hero. They just want to be able to protect themselves and their families if they must.

DH and I are both trim, yet when he is carrying there is no printing (or outward signs that he has a firearm on his body). This is due to quality holsters and wardrobe choices. In the class, this was a very important point....concealed means that no one should know you are carrying regardless of what you are doing. Also stressed was the point that it is almost always better to be a good witness than having to use your firearm.

average 5 years, 4 months ago

Anyone got a bearing on what effect this would have on the quasi-state/quasi-private KU Athletic Corp and Kansas Memorial Unions? I mean, a private business can choose to refuse carrying patrons (meaningless gesture that it is), at least so far.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

Paulette2

If I'm not mistaken, and it is possible. The law does not limit guns on University grounds, but instead USD grounds. I could be wrong, I know specifically that in most situations you can't park a car on USD grounds with a gun(unless you are picking a kid up, or a few other exceptions).

grichmo 5 years, 4 months ago

The law limits guns on university grounds because the university has posted "gun buster" signs at all the points of entry.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Ok, first off the statement that the four cops at the donut shop would have been saved if there had only been more armed patrons? Unbelievable! Why wouldn't he have just shot at them, too? Apparently the world only needs one set of blinkers over there, because logic only goes in circles.

The truth is that people can be stopped with our without guns and people can be gunned down whether or not they are armed themselves. Having guns on campus in spite of the objection of every sort of authority on the issue just seems like a stupid plan.

As pointed out earlier, all this will do is scare the bejezus out of potential students. I go touring campuses, and I guarantee I'll steer clear of the one that has barbed wire fence and metal detectors around it. And whether or not there are a huge number of people taking up the offer, allowing CC on campus has much the same effect.

Do we actually want some out of state tuition? Or would we rather lose that AND debate spending more money during a budget crisis year on totally baloney metal detectors.

grichmo 5 years, 4 months ago

This isn't about guns. It's about where lawful people can have them. Some of you confuse "telling good people where they can have them" with eliminating ALL guns from an area. Criminals will bring theirs and therefore I should be allowed to bring mine. Just because I can doesn't mean I will.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

Why would you steer away from the universities that would install metal detectors? That's about as irrational as worrying about people carrying concealed legally around you. The area passed the detectors? There's no guns there. If you're scared of guns, that should be your happy place.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Jadkansas, does going to an airport make you feel safer or severely inconvenienced and annoyed? Would you like to enjoy that hassle each and every day?

Not only does it imply that either the student body are criminals or the surrounding area (where the students will live) is full of armed criminals, it also means every student and faculty member would have a hassle each and every time they went to class. It also means they bought metal detectors instead of professors.

It doesn't matter what the reality or statistics say. This is the perception. It could be the loveliest neighborhood ever, but when you put up barbed wire and metal detectors, you imply that there's some reason for that aggressive action. Well, besides satisfying wingnut legislators that want to bleed all forms of public education dry.

And no, I'm not afraid of guns. I've shot them, and if I lived in the country, I'd probably own one. As it is, I don't feel that I need to act as my own law enforcement, I don't need to shoot my dinner, and I'm not going to take up armed revolution against the government, so I don't have a personal reason to own one. I'm not out to ban them everywhere, either. It's just reasonable to have times and places where polite society allows you to hang up your pistols for a couple of hours while you engage in a non-mandated activity like higher education.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

Point of note: Safety is an inconvenience, but not as great an inconvenience as if you are to ignore it.

And yes, I actually do feel safer at airports. And detectors, if installed on campuses, would not be as great an inconvenience as at an airport as I wouldn't have to run my keys and cell phone through an x-ray machine in a basket (what's the point of that, I ask you!). And I also doubt we would be removing our shoes for inspectors at the door, either. The detectors don't cause the annoyance we have at airports, it's all the other things we have to go through.

If you lived in the country? Where then, pray tell, do you live? What are the gun laws and crime rate like there?

grichmo 5 years, 4 months ago

"Geekyhost", I am amazed at how much I agree with what you said above. I personally have a CCW permit and never once wished I could carry onto campus to attend class. Matter of fact, I have only carried a handful of times and that was only when I was transporting large sums of money at night by myself. I also agree that guns really have no place on a university campus in polite society. Guns simply don't belong there. However, what if I have a violent stalker? Is he going to leave his at home because of a "law" or do I have to be a criminal to protect myself? Stupid situation, but it's the point am trying to get at.

I wish people would stop trying to take the rights of EVERYONE away because they don't trust a handful of people to be responsible and leave their gun at home or handle it carefully.

gunpa 5 years, 4 months ago

How many against this bill know how many concealed handguns they are around every day in Lawrence?

This legislation makes individuals able to protect themselves or the school can provide for that protection.

Steve Bunch 5 years, 4 months ago

The city might consider concealed carry for the swimming pool, too. It would be fun to see how creative folks can get. And Virginia allows guns in bars. When will Kansans finally catch up with those easterners? Guns in church would be a good idea, too The one good thing about living in a moronocracy is that there's never a shortage absurdities to discuss.

mickeyrat 5 years, 4 months ago

Dumbest idea ever.

How afraid (was) I of another VA-Tech style rampage?
Glad you asked: not at all.

How much better to have guns available to the 20,000+ students on campus, especially during finals when they're all stressed out. Now, instead of getting drunk and puking on your lawn, they might be able to hole up in a dorm room with their roommate's 1911. As proliferforwar might say, "everybody will be safer."

Bizarre.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

What does the availability of guns have to do with a group of law-abiding citizens who have permits to carry? As it stands, those same guns are available to the same stressed out students and there's nothing stopping them from doing something stupid, illegal, and dangerous with them if they wanted. Especially not a useless "gunbusters" sign. Your statement makes it sound like the bill, if passed, would require students to be armed when on campus and it would be nothing at all to that effect.

remember_username 5 years, 4 months ago

This is a pretty complex problem. The US Supreme Court has noted that the 2nd amendment is not without limits specifically noting both schools and government buildings as examples of areas where 2nd amendment rights "might" be limited. As they noted in the Heller decision the 2nd amendment right is directly tied to the natural right of self defense or defense against tyranny.

The problem becomes interesting in the attempt to identify those "sensitive" areas where the US Supreme Court so casually noted the limitations of the 2nd amendment. If we are to assume the natural right to self defense is rendered unnecessary where there is a reasonable level of safety, then this bill is cleverly prepared. Any area providing sufficient safety measures can enact a ban on the carrying of concealed weapons for self defense. So why concealed? Just to be polite? I think it is the belief that if no one knows who has a gun and who doesn't it will operate as a deterrent to an unstable person, and there may be some validity to that point.

So why would the passing of this new law make me feel less safe instead of more safe? Anybody? Policemen do not spook me, guns do not frighten me, I've been under fire before and lived. Ah, I know. It's because I'm not carrying a gun and that student over there might be. Well, I guess I'd better go take the class and get the permit. Until then everybody gets an A.

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

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mcontrary 5 years, 4 months ago

I hope the governor has enough sense to veto this idiotic bill.

grichmo 5 years, 4 months ago

"Ever think that maybe people don't like the prospect of being caught in a crossfire between a bad guy and a suddenly nervous citizen? If you are killed, does it really matter if the bullet came from a criminal or a law abiding citizen? That is why some don't like this."

  • But why would I be shooting at you? Furthermore, if I'm shooting at someone it is a last resort and they will be close enough that I will not miss.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

If someone accidentally fires one of these weapons and kills your kid, that will certainly bring reality into focus for a lot of people.

The politicians who pass such bills should pay for the civil damages that result from them. Maybe we need to think about suing the lawyers who are making these laws. That is something they would understand.

The Kansas Republican Party that pushed through this bill has total confidence that gun carrying students will make my child safer on campus but have no confidence in the law enforcement professionals who say it is a bad idea.

Personally, I would rather trust law enforcement professionals than a young Dick Cheney with a gun.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

The character of the Kansas Republican Party reminds me of cult members who have lost the ability to think for themselves in a rational manner and are relying on an agenda or ideological world view to formulate their view of reality.

Maybe it is time to free them from their mental slavery by simply not voting for them.

afraidnot 5 years, 4 months ago

Great. Now if some crazy starts shooting, you'll have 20 people firing back? Not sure where in the room I would want to be... maybe in a different state at a different college where kids aren't allowed to bring their guns to class.

independant1 5 years, 4 months ago

Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for. (Will Rogers)

Jeff Cuttell 5 years, 4 months ago

What are we going to do after the Basketball and Football teams kill each other?

independant1 5 years, 4 months ago

I won't say ours was a tough school, but we had our own coroner. We used to write essays like: What I'm going to be if I grow up. (Lenny Bruce)

independant1 5 years, 4 months ago

Aim high, and you won't shoot your foot off. (Phyllis Diller)

50YearResident 5 years, 4 months ago

According to you nay-sayers there must be shootings all over town every night right now from the 3000 people with permits that are roaming the streets of Lawrence as we speak. Surely they are drunk previous College Students. I am going to call the Journal World and Sherriff''s office and complain because they are not printing these stories. There must be a cover up someplace. Remember this CC law has been in effect for 3 years and they haven't printed even 1 story about those crazy bass turds.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

Always keep a cork on your fork. Some unbalanced person might take it away from you and try to stab you with it.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

@jayhawklawrence

Obviously you have no experience with guns or CC permit holders. As I have stated before there is no risk to a AD(accidental discharge) while CC'ing. Holes in that idea are as follows.

  1. Carrying a firearm EVEN concealed is not thrown into your pant waist, it is done with CC holsters, which any modern holster CC or not, physically has no way to actuate the trigger.
  2. These aren't flintlock weapons, modern pistols have redundent safeties on them. Examples include a Glock with the "safe trigger" multi-step trigger, and the direct trigger blocking safety, that blocks to trigger from actuating. Another is some versions of the 1911 45 cal, which has a safety, and a beavertail safety that will not allow the weapon to fire without someone place their palm on the rear of the grip and within the trigger guard. Some weapons even have three redundent safeties. Glock and a 1911 are just popular weapons.
  3. The process to recieve a CC permit requires hours of gun safety training, through which you are taught a very stringent, safe way of handling firearms.
  4. Most CC owners have been around firearms all their lives, thus giving them ample experience to know how to handle a weapons.
  5. The only way to fire a pistol is to depress the trigger, and any trained individual will know that the finger does not enter the trigger guard unless you are firing.

Overall the required experience and training eliminate the likelihood of AD's. Ignorance on your part is what allows you to have a warped reality. Get a CC permit, then talk with experience.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

@jayhawklawrence

Do you even know the requirements to get a CC permit in Kansas? Do you have any evidence of how CC permits have in the past, lead to deaths?

Some fool posted a website earlier, that had acquited cases, cases of a kid stealing his father's CC gun and killing people. The "evidence" you are speaking of, doesn't exist.

The rates of gun violence of CC owners as compared to the rest of the population are quite clear, that the process of obtaining a CC liscense weeds out most the crazy's. CC owners are beyond any doubt, much safer firearms users than the regular population. Additionally they carry these weapons DAILY, adding exponentially to their safety record.

RobertMarble 5 years, 4 months ago

So KU students now have increased ability to defend themselves in case some psycho goes on a rampage like at Virginia Tech or Ft. Hood? It's about time. So called "gun free" zones only apply to law abiding citizens- the bad guys sure don't follow those rules.

"When seconds can mean the difference between life and death, isn't it reassuring to know the cops are only minutes away?"

DillonBarnes 5 years, 4 months ago

There is a lot of fear and misunderstanding about guns on here. Guns are not evil. Often when a gun is used to hurt people, it is another gun that stops him. Too many people saw the headline and in visioned ignorant drunk teenagers running around campus pointing the gun at whoever got in the way.

The environment at KU would not change a single bit if guns were allowed on campus. You would never see one. As a 22 year old CC, I'm a little insulted that so many assume I'm irresponsible and unfit to handle a firearm. Many of those who accuse have had ZERO interaction with a gun. I've taken the required courses, I've done extensive reading on CC, and I've put thousands of rounds through the gun so I feel proficient in handling it.

Let me defend myself when someone threatens my life, let my girlfriend defend herself against a rapist. We are educated and experience, we understand the responsibility of owning and carrying a gun. We do it around you all the time.

TopJayhawk 5 years, 4 months ago

Remember, you have to be twenty-one to have a license. This eliminates most all students, and certanly freshman. Hopefully a lot of faculty will carry.

echarles 5 years, 4 months ago

there is a great point on here.

have there been any CC related shootings? i haven't heard of any

DillonBarnes 5 years, 4 months ago

"have there been any CC related shootings? i haven't heard of any"

There have been two CC related shootings in Kansas that I am aware of. One involved an Oklahoma man who was carrying in Topeka. He was at a gas station where two men came in to rob it. When one of the men pointed his gun at the concealed carrier, he fired.

Someone has to help me out on the second because I can't remember details. I fairly certain that in both cases no charges were filed and law enforcement ruled both shootings justified.

Jeremy DeBoard 5 years, 4 months ago

That's the statistic anti-gun folk don't want you to know (how many crimes are stopped or prevented due to CC permit holders). The number is in the range of 1 -3 million across the country each year.

yourworstnightmare 5 years, 4 months ago

Pistol-grip pump on my podium at all times. Pistol-grip pump on my podium at all times. Pistol-grip pump on my podium at all times. You can disrupt other professors' classes You won't be disruptin' mine.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Grichmo asks "However, what if I have a violent stalker? Is he going to leave his at home because of a "law" or do I have to be a criminal to protect myself? Stupid situation, but it's the point am trying to get at."

If you have a violent stalker, what's to prevent this stalker from simply assassinating you with a sniper rifle or watching for times when your hands are full? Carrying the gun on campus only gives you the illusion of safety. Criminals and psychotics will not only ignore laws, they'll ignore safety precautions, social conventions, and bad movie impersonations where the villain always monologues before they shoot. It also wouldn't do a thing to help the 18-20 year old college co-ed who would be breaking the law to own a gun at all.

"No gun" signs are also an illusion of safety, yes, but it's an illusion that saves the campus more money than a set of metal detectors - a precaution that wouldn't prevent a determined killer from getting onto campus, just like those metal detectors didn't prevent the shoe or underwear bombers from boarding planes and didn't stop the 9-11 terrorists from bringing box cutters on their flights.

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

jadkansas - without a comparison of the number of crimes that are stopped and prevented due to unarmed interventions, it's a hollow argument. I don't know of such a study.

You also have to compare the number of gun accidents and suicides vs non-gun suicides. Turns out that areas with the highest availability of guns also have higher suicide rates and higher gun accident rates. Go figure.

Miller M, Lippman S, Azrael D, Hemenway D. 2007. Household firearm ownership and rates of suicide across the 50 United States. The Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection and Critical Care 62: 1029-1035.

To be fair, CC holders with their extended training are not included in this statistic. I don't think there are a lot of studies from unbiased sources on CC and safety. In fact, this study says exactly that: http://www.publichealthlawresearch.org/public-health-topics/injury-prevention/gun-safety/evidence-brief/%E2%80%9Cshall-issue%E2%80%9D-concealed-weapons-law

What is shown, however, that public perception says gun ownership makes people feel less safe. Whether they are or not, people feel less safe when CC is permitted and the vast majority feel that guns should be restricted from places like bars and college campuses. http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/7/4/282.abstract?sid=861490b4-3857-40d9-baf0-a0e6d8243c23

geekyhost 5 years, 4 months ago

Vertigo - duh! My point exactly. They won't prevent dart guns, super soakers filed with acid, or anthrax, either. Determined killers will find new and interesting ways to carryout their deeds. I'd rather my tax dollars paid for classrooms and teachers, not a metal detector makeover for campus.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

I knew a shop teacher that taught shop safety for 30 years and then sawed her finger off on a bandsaw in her garage.

I had a good friend in Michigan who was a police officer. He was one of the most responsible guys I have ever met and grew up hunting deer in Michigan. He was cleaning his hand gun one day and shot himself through the hand.

I knew a guy who was so knowledgeable about weapons that he was the Secretary of Defense at one time and even VP of the United States. He accidentally shot his friend in the face with a shotgun.

Accidents happen.

I know a lot about guns having grown up with guns. I trust myself with a gun but I don't trust you with a gun.

gogoplata 5 years, 4 months ago

I trust concealed carry people with guns more than I trust the police.

remember_username 5 years, 4 months ago

The constitution provides for the right of self defense not the illusion of safety. Carrying a firearm does not necessarily increase ones level of safety, and may statistically make an individual less safe. However, carrying a firearm does provide a person with greater ability to defend him or her self against imminent threat - and that has been ruled a constitutional right.

I too feel less safe in an environment where concealed weapons are allowed. It boils down to a trust in issue. Do I believe the standard course enabling a person to be licensed to carry a firearm is sufficient to ensure my safety around such individuals? No I do not. As I understand the current law requires an 8 hour training class, a license fee, and restrictions placed on criminal behavior and/or mental stability within the past 5 years. The license is good for a 4 year period. Wow.

Yes, there are a good many people I know with whom I feel safe when they are carrying a weapon. Many shoot regularly, are avid hunters, in law enforcement, or are military trained. But there are also a good many people - here on campus, right now today - that can't remember what they were told just yesterday, yet they are quite capable of receiving a license to carry a deadly weapon. Holy crap, they could have a license even now. The ease with which one could obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon needs to be re-assessed and regular proficiency training and evaluation should be required. Why would anyone currently licensed to carry have an objection to that? What if it were free?

gogoplata 5 years, 4 months ago

Just carry concealed without getting the stupid license. I don't need permission to protect myself.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

" I trust myself with a gun but I don't trust you with a gun." Since you don't actually know me, on what evidence are you basing that judgement?

Jeff Cuttell 5 years, 4 months ago

TopJayhawk (anonymous) says…

Remember, you have to be twenty-one to have a license. This eliminates most all students, and certanly freshman. Hopefully a lot of faculty will carry.

This "shoots a hole" in your theory because then the students won't have the guns anyway to protect themselves. People that have no business on campus would still have the upper hand on them. So why then do we even need to try to add to problem? Keep campus a gun-free zone like before and anyone with a firearm could be arrested. Otherwise, anyone could check into the hotel an sit and pick people off coming from football games. Not that they wouldn't sneak them in luggage anyway but this way, ANYONE seen carrying a weapon could be arrested BEFORE a tragedy.

Let's not keep thinking of ourselves as Matt Dillon (the one from Gunsmoke) and start thinking as people that have moved into a more civil time. We surely have moved past this by 2010. Anyone who wants to, like myself, own guns and have them at home, has every right to. Carrying them into public is asking for trouble. Or at least pretending to be Charles Bronson

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

Never trim your fingernails in public, some "unstable" person could take your clippers and murder you with them.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

jajacut that is not actually defeating our arguement/desires. Having teachers also armed would allow them to respond with deadly force in a situation like VA Tech. Teachers and the older, more responsible students would have access to the permit.

geeky, the arguement you propose of an "unarmed" assault actually doesn't do anything against the concept of CC. Tackling someone is just another tool available, as is a pistol. A tool to save lives, why should we take them away from someone capable of saving a life?

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

Relax and have a popsicle, paulette. It's a cool and fruity treat on a spring day.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

I have mixed feelings about the gun issue and I have worked in the gun industry. I have helped developed systems for the manufacture of guns. I have personally met many of the major gun manufacturers in the United States and I personally think that all of these folks appear to be very responsible and patriotic Americans.

The level of responsibility and good citizenship is very high with serious gun owners. I would not want to deny them the right to carry a gun to protect themselves.

The problem I have is the politicization of the issue. Once the politicians get involved, the practical problem of arming 18 and 19 year old kids on college campuses goes into the realm of lunacy.

There is no way that a rational person can believe that this is a good development.

DillonBarnes 5 years, 4 months ago

jayhawklawrence, You have to be 21 to get a permit. 18, 19, 20 year olds would not legally be able to carry.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

DillonBarnes:

Thanks for the info.

That makes me feel a little better about it.

DillonBarnes 5 years, 4 months ago

No problem, you can always check out the attorney general's website to read more about CC in Kansas.

http://www.ksag.org/page/concealed-carry

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

jayhawklawrence

Aleast 5 people(maybe less haha) have mentioned the fact that CC permits require 21 years of age to be granted. I have actually asked if you knew the requirements of the permit for just that reason. Atleast you got there eventually.

independant1 5 years, 4 months ago

We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns? (Joseph Stalin)

Liberty275 5 years, 4 months ago

Not a bad idea. A person with a concealed carry license and adequate marksmanship could have stopped a few of the massacres that have happened in America in the past.

davidsmom 5 years, 4 months ago

Marine Corps recruits have 109.2 hours in marksmanship training. I don't believe the required training for CC is that long. I don't know how many hours police officers receive. The average person is probably going to panic when faced with a threatening situation and is not going to have sound judgment nor the skills to handle the situation properly. I definitely do not feel safer knowing average people are carrying weapons.

jayhawklawrence 5 years, 4 months ago

Like I mentioned before, I know a lot of people in the gun business and the quality of people as far as good citizenship is extremely high. I do not think serious gun owners are anything but well trained and responsible with handguns. Some of the people I know have many national and world championship trophies as shooters.

I no longer own a gun because my wife is scared of guns and I always felt I could take care of myself. Lately, I have considered buying a gun for when we go out camping or fishing, etc. I would feel safer.

My biggest pet peeve about the gun industry is the way it has been politicized and the radical and crazy comments you often hear especially comments toward our President.

You know what I am talking about. That is where the term gun nut seems to be appropriate at times. There are a lot of extreme elements within the NRA and the gun industry which makes me nervous.

Extremism has taken over the Republican Party and I think our country deserves better leadership than what they have shown the last 10 years.

We need to become a more civil society and arming everyone does not seem to be an appropriate response.

happy_go_lucky 5 years, 4 months ago

jayhawklawrence

I completely agree, I am not a member of the NRA nor the Republican Party. I am a Democrat that believes in the 2nd Aamendment. I am not a fan of the hyper-conservative elements within the NRA, but I am happy with having my rights protected my an extremely zealous force in the NRA. I will never be a member of the NRA.

davidsmom

8 hours of gun safety are required in the state of Kansas, as stated many times. But that is not involving gun use. The average CC permit holder, is a avid shooter, training countless hours with their weapon so that should the need arise, they will put their target down. Additionally "the average person" will not have a CC permit, many CC permit holders are ex-police and former military. So the assumption that a CC permit holding would panic is offbase. Your ignorance is not unique, many people posting here have no idea what they are talking about.

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

"A person with a concealed carry license and adequate marksmanship could have stopped a few of the massacres that have happened in America in the past."

Yes, juust as a person with a c&c with inadequate marksmanship (high pressure situation, chaotic circumstance, nervousness, etc.) could also have escalated the numbers killed in massacres in the past. There is no guarantee either way. I ask simply, if it is so helpful to the situation, why don't the police fully support the move?

However, happygolucky suggests that such a view is offbase, demonstrating the many numbers of hours one trains to be a c&c holder. Fine. So why don't we require this of everyone with a gun?

Personally, the c&c folks don't scare me. It is all the rest of the owners with no training out there who do.

And the NRA are just paid lobbyists (lawyer-whores) pandering and escalating fears of people who think others are going to take away their guns despite the rulings by the Supreme Court that make such a scenario virtually impossible today. The courts have spoken in favor of gun ownership, yet the NRA keeps fanning the flames of fear because they know that is what lines their pocketbooks. The NRA is scum personified.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 4 months ago

Bea, how do you feel about the fact that Dear Leader has taken many lobbyists (lawyer-whores) into his administration after saying he wouldn't do any such thing? Based on his past performance, why should anyone think he will keep any promise?

beatrice 5 years, 4 months ago

No, I know him by his actual name. You are such an un-American flake that you can't even recognize the President of the United States. Pathetic.

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