Archive for Thursday, September 10, 2009

Obama: ‘Time for bickering’ now over for health care

September 10, 2009


President Obama addresses a joint session of Congress about health care reform Wednesday night.

President Obama addresses a joint session of Congress about health care reform Wednesday night.

— Shaking off a summer of setbacks, President Barack Obama summoned Congress to enact sweeping health care legislation Wednesday night, declaring the “time for bickering is over” and the moment has arrived to protect millions who have unreliable insurance or no coverage at all.

Obama said the changes he wants would cost about $900 billion over a decade, “less than we have spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and less than the tax cuts for the wealthiest few Americans” passed during the Bush administration.

In a televised speech to a joint session of Congress, Obama spoke in favor of a provision for the federal government to sell insurance in competition with private industry. But in a remark certain to displease liberals, he did not insist on it, and said he was open to other alternatives that create choices for consumers.

Obama said he remains ready to listen to all ideas but added in a clear reference to Republicans, “I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill this plan than to improve it.”

In an unusual outburst from the Republican side of the House chamber, Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted out “You lie” when the president said illegal immigrants would not benefit from his proposals. The president paused briefly and smiled, but from her seat in the visitor’s gallery, first lady Michelle Obama shook her head from side to side in disapproval of the interruption.

In general, the president shied away from providing lawmakers with a list of particulars he wants to see included in the legislation, and there was nothing in the speech to invite comparisons with Bill Clinton’s pen-waving veto threat more than a decade ago on health care.

Obama’s speech came as the president and his allies in Congress readied an autumn campaign to enact his top domestic priority. Republican opposition, contentious town hall meetings and drooping polls have contributed to their woes. An AP-GfK survey hours before the speech showed public disapproval of Obama’s handling of health care has jumped to 52 percent, an increase of 9 percentage points since July.

While Democrats command strong majorities in both the House and Senate, neither chamber has acted on Obama’s top domestic priority, missing numerous deadlines leaders had set for themselves.

In a fresh sign of urgency, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., announced that his Senate Finance Committee would meet in two weeks to begin drafting legislation, whether or not a handful of Democrats and Republicans have come to an agreement. The panel is the last of five to act in Congress, and while the outcome is uncertain, it is the only one where bipartisanship has been given a chance to flourish.

‘Scare tactics’

Obama said there is widespread agreement on about 80 percent of what must be included in legislation. Any yet, criticizing Republicans without saying so, he added: “Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics” and ideological warfare that offers no hope for compromise.

“Well, the time for bickering is over,” he said. “The time for games has passed. Now is the season for action.”

“I am not the first president to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last,” he added.

The president was alternately bipartisan and tough on his Republican critics. He singled out Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., for praise at one point. Yet, moments later, in a line apparently aimed at McCain’s former running mate, Sarah Palin, Obama accused Republicans of spreading the “cynical and irresponsible” charge that the legislation would include “death panels” with the power to hasten the death of senior citizens.

In one gesture to Republicans, Obama said his administration would authorize a series of test programs in some states to check the impact of medical malpractice changes on health insurance costs.

Responding on behalf of Republicans, Rep. Charles Boustany, R-La., said the country wants Obama to instruct Democratic congressional leaders that “it’s time to start over on a common-sense, bipartisan plan focused on lowering the cost of health care while improving quality.”

“Replacing your family’s current health care with government-run health care is not the answer,” said Boustany, a heart surgeon.

Setting the stage

In a reflection of the stakes, White House aides mustered all the traditional pomp they could for a president who took office vowing to change Washington. The setting was a State of the Union-like joint session of Congress, attended by lawmakers, members of the Cabinet and diplomats.

The House was packed, and loud applause greeted the president when he walked down the center aisle of the House chamber.

Additionally, the White House invited as guests men and women who have suffered from high costs and insurance practices, seating them near first lady Michelle Obama. Vicki Kennedy, the widow of Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., was also on the guest list. Kennedy, who died last month, had made health care a career-long cause, and Obama spoke movingly of his efforts.

Obama intends to follow up the speech with an appearance Saturday in Minneapolis, the White House announced.

Despite deep-seated differences among lawmakers, Obama drew a standing ovation when he recounted stories of Americans whose coverage was denied or delayed by their insurers with catastrophic results.

“That is heartbreaking, it is wrong, and no one should me treated that way in the United States of America.”

The president sought to cast his own plan as being in the comfortable political middle, rejecting both the government-run system that some liberals favor and the Republican-backed approach under which all consumers buy health insurance on their own.

Obama said the legislation he seeks would guarantee insurance to consumers, regardless of pre-existing medical conditions, as well as other protections. “As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it most,” he added.

The president assured those with insurance that “nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.”

Obama also said the legislation he seeks would help those who lack insurance to afford it. “These are not primarily people on welfare,” he said in a line that appeared aimed at easing concerns among working-class voters. “These are middle-class Americans.”

The president also said he wants legislation that “will slow the growth of health care costs for our families.”

Obama said a collective failure to meet the challenge of overhauling health care for decades has “led us to a breaking point.”

The so-called government option that Obama mentioned has emerged as one of the most contentious issues in the monthslong debate over health care, with liberal Democrats supporting it and many moderates inside the party opposed. An early draft of Baucus’ plan calls for an alternative consisting of nonprofit co-ops. Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine, the Republican who seems most inclined to cross party lines on the issue, favors a different approach, consisting of a standby in which the government could sell insurance if competition fails to emerge in individual states.


Cait McKnelly 8 years, 9 months ago

In 56 years of life I have never seen a sitting President treated with the disrespect that Obama was given tonight. It's a sad indication of the extreme polarization being foisted on this country by the far right. The fact that Republicans permit people like that to wear the party label is shameful in and of itself. George W. Bush left the office with the lowest ratings of any President in the history of this country. Democrats still respected the office and it's holder. If the Republican party does not give up it's divisive tactics and start working toward a bi-partisan cooperation within the government they will spell their own doom. Right now they just look like a bunch of spoiled two year olds, throwing tantrums and trying to manipulate Mommy and Daddy because they can't get their way.

Maddy Griffin 8 years, 9 months ago

I don't recall Obama ever promising to "give ' us everything for free. And all this socialism talk is pure propaganda bordering on fear-mongering. Bush lied to get us into an unwanted war that we don't seem to be able to ge.t out of now. For that reason he will never have my respect. I don't expect to have anything I'm not willing to work for. This man was handed one hell of a mess when he took office. I think he deserves a lot of respect for even wanting to try to get us out of it. I don't see many of you willing to take on the problems he has taken on to solve. All I hear about is how he's trying to turn the country upside down, take our hard earned money and give it to those who don't want to work, yada yada yada. Get over yourselves and see what you can do to help. Ask not what your country can do for you... If you're not part of the solution, you must be part of the problem.

Keith 8 years, 9 months ago

That little outburst in Congress will backfire. I see the irresponsible party has already apologized, that's more than the reichwinger trolls here will ever do.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"In an unusual outburst from the Republican side of the House chamber, Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted out “You lie” when the president said illegal immigrants would not benefit from his proposals. The president paused briefly and smiled, but from her seat in the visitor’s gallery, first lady Michelle Obama shook her head from side to side in disapproval of the interruption."

The idiot should be rebuked and censured, at the very least and I hope that there will be efforts undertaken to do so immediately. Allowing this sort of thing to take place and be smoothed over with a lame "oh, I got a little too excited" will only ensure that such behavior continues in the future. Time for all Americans who care about the dignity and respect that should be due the office of President, the proceedings of the Congress and the civil political discourse that we citizens have a right to expect to demand that such boorishness be smacked down. I wonder if a member of Congress who engages in such yelling and screaming during proceedings has not violated some rule of Congress.

On the other hand, further evidence of the depths to which the republican party has sunk. Shouting down people with whome they disagree. Just like we saw during the month of August. And the visual spectacle of that collection of ugly, unhappy middle aged/old white guys sitting there all night scowling at the events of the evening was all you needed to know about what they are all about. There was one long shot of Boehner where he looked like he may have been passing a stone of some sort. Not an appealing glimpse in to the heart and soul of what they are really all about.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"You're exactly right Keith. Appararently you have already forgotten the vile and hateful crap that circulated around during the Bush years from the paranoid and hysterical looney left. I'll never forget it. Payback is a B isn't it? Your guy and Pelosi and Reid are an abomination….period."

Please provide one example of a Congress person who disrupted one of bush's addresses and/or called him a liar during an address to the Congress.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

This was a great speech by Obama.

It was clear after the speech who the grown-ups in the room were.

The GOP tantrums were really unprofessional and childish. Obama handled them very well. Like an adult.

It was nice to see republicans rebuke Wilson, condemn his childish behavior, and force him to apologize.

Is he truly sorry? No. But at least it is a start of the GOP house cleaning that needs to happen.

Flap Doodle 8 years, 9 months ago

The lad does have some mad teleprompter skillz.

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom, Unfortunately, what you're writing here is little more than bovine fecal matter itself. Not only that, the arguments you bring here are the same as someone dredging up things done 5 and 10 years ago during a discussion (read that as argument) at home. Unless of course you never argue, which I doubt. Why not go back and say things about Johnson's Great Society or what John Kennedy before he was assassinated? It would follow with the line and style of your current arguments.

Dan Rather was discredited and is spending his time trying to sue his old news organization. Sounds pretty final to me.

As I remember, nobody shouted out like that at a joint session when GWB spoke. Please correct me if I'm wrong, then provide a reference. I'll admit my mistake if you do that. What Rep Wilson did was reprehensible and he does deserve censure. On national TV he exhibited the same behavior many posters on both sides here exhibit on a regular basis. And, quite frankly, it's disgusting, especially when they know better. That behavior is a perfect example of how our country is fracturing and has been for 20 years. You can only put so much mastic on something before it falls apart. I don't know about you, but I fear for the world my grandchildren will live in.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"If Barack Hussein Obama would simply resign, the “bickering” would come to a halt."

That's a lie, plain and simple.

If Biden were in the chair, the right wing fringe would launch in to him. If it were Hilary, she'd be the target. When it was Bill Clinton, he was the target. When the Kennedy brothers were in position to disturb right wing power, they were the targets, literally. So was Martin Luther King.

The man or woman in the chair matters not. Everyone who seeks to disturb the rich and powerful interests will be targetted for such abuse and bickering. Progress, however, marches on.

jumpin_catfish 8 years, 9 months ago

Hey Obama, You lie! Joe Wilson is my hero!

jafs 8 years, 9 months ago


At least one representative has shown and read the part of the bill that explicitly prohibits any federal funding for illegal immigrants' health care.

Not that it matters - you have clearly and forcefully expressed your hatred for Obama, Pelosi, Reid, etc.

I hope continuing to do so helps your general mental health, as it seems unlkely to accomplish anything else.

Flap Doodle 8 years, 9 months ago

“…Given the White House preparation for the press on this speech, it suggests that no one there has a clue what they’re doing on health-care reform, least of all the President himself. One day they’re insisting that the public option isn’t essential, then it is, then it’s not again, and then the President demands it on national television. They’ll have their own plan, they claim, and then Obama’s speech has no specifics but instead endorses HR3200. If there’s a strategy involved here, it’s inscrutable. The only argument the White House appears to be making at the moment is one of incompetence, especially in messaging, and a growing sense of desperate flailing.”

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"His election was an error"

Another lie, plain and simple.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"If there’s a strategy involved here, it’s inscrutable. "

It's called negotiation. I bet most Americans understand.

remember_username 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom - of course you'll "never forget it", you feed on it regularly. In your last 50+ posts you have had little to say that could remotely contribute to the debate over the issues. Your postings are a constant harangue against the "paranoid and hysterical looney left" and anyone you remotely believe supports the current administration.

If you want your positions to be heard and considered rationally, if you want to take part in civilized debate, then try being less "paranoid and hysterical" yourself. Your postings are becoming more the babbling of a lunatic and less of the type of free speech democracy needs to thrive.

I'm told the LJW hopes to have a system in place some day that will allow users to "ignore" certain posters. I wonder how many will continue to read your comments if they continue to be little more than unproductive rants. Will you even care if no one reads your words?

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Ralph, your memory is failing you. W was treated just as poorly by the dems. Regardless of party, such behavior out of members of congress is unprofessional and just further reinforces the fact we should throw all the bums out in the next election - ALL of them.

The government forcing a private citizen to buy anything is unconstitutional. Period. Of course our government routinely operates well outside of it's constitutional limits, so hearing a President recommend we do something unconstitutional is no surprise. Car insurance is an incredibly poor analogy as well. The state law does not technically require you to have car insurance - it requires you to be "financially responsible" if you chose to drive. Car insurance is the common way of complying with that law, but not the only way.

Paying for everything through saving hundreds of billions in fraud and waste? That doesn't pass the common sense test folks. If there is a way to save all this money, how come we haven't been doing it all along?

The ideas of tort lawsuit reform, buying health insurance across state lines, and giving individuals the exact same tax break for health care costs employers get have all been around for at least the last 20 years. How come none of them have ever passed?

Because they each have incredibly powerful lobbies in congress. The trial lawyers pour millions into democrat campaigns, and the insurance companies do the same for republicans. Giving a tax break to individuals? Well that tax break "costs" the government money of course.

Cost? Please. Do they not realize we are the ones that go out and work and earn the money they spend? How is letting us keep a little more of what we earn "costing" the government? For crying out loud! They COST all of us money. Amazing.

Make no mistake about it folks - at the end of the day this is all about growing and preserving federal government power - not health care. Both parties, time and again, have clearly demonstrated they could care less about us.

remember_username 8 years, 9 months ago

Agnostick - couldn't read anymore than the last 50+.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"Make no mistake about it folks - at the end of the day this is all about growing and preserving federal government power - not health care. Both parties, time and again, have clearly demonstrated they could care less about us."

I disagree. Has Medicaid and Medicare, VA programs, SCHIP programs (to name just a few government efforts in this very area) improved the lives of everyday Ameicans, or not?

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

Excellent job Mr. President! Explained the situation clearly, noted the obvious reasons change in health care is needed, and declared that he will not back away from this just because it would be easier to do so.

When health care reform happens -- not if, but when -- it will ensure that this President and this Congress will go down in history as having made a very positive change in American history.

Tom, once again you call our President the Annointed One. He is simply the Elected One. When will this sink through the tin foil hat of yours?

Satirical 8 years, 9 months ago

These questions must be answered:

(1) How is the public option (estimated at 900 billion over 10 years by Obama) going to be paid for?

(2) If the wasteful Medicare and Medicaid spending is so obvious, clear, and easy to remove, why hasn't it been cut before? (Please don't respond with the empty rhetoric that it was money just to help insurance companies make a higher profit, and Republicans wouldn't remove it. If so, you are guilty of the same childish tactics Obama condemns.)

(3) Do we really trust government who created all that waste to remove it? (Do not be so naive to think one party was solely behind creating all this inefficiency and waste....assuming there is at least 451 billion dollars of it.)

(4) Are we confident some bureaucrat who decides what programs/costs are waste won't affect any programs that are beneficial to seniors?

Boosh 8 years, 9 months ago

barrypenders (Anonymous) says… "My nanny told me that one has to earn repect to get it."

A poll is needed on how many people on here had nannies. When you say nanny I can't help but think absentee parent. Sorry if that offends, but thats what the word conjures to me.

By the way I agree with your nanny.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Scott - ask me that question when the MEDICARE and MEDICADE ponzi schemes go bankrupt in a few years. They are unsustainable. Millions of people have in good faith paid into these programs (actually they were compelled by threat of force) and they were promised a specified benefit in return. It simply won't be there for them.

Unlike these other entitlement programs, VA benefits are a contractual agreement between DoD and the individual service member - which has also eroded over the years. The health care that was promised to be free now costs veterans thousands of dollars a year and congress is planning to increase that amount. Yes. It's helpful and better than nothing but is yet another great example of the government failing to deliver on it's promises. The VA is tiny compared to what the President wants for the whole country, which is why people have a hard time trusting him.

Thats what this boils down to. There are just too many examples of big government entitlement promises ending up costing orders of magnitude more than originally planned and delivering far less than advertised. Making such another mistake scares people given how terribly in debt our country already is. We pay over $500 million dollars EVERY DAY in just interest on the national debt. People don't want to add to that number no matter how laudable the goal.

There are a lot of things the government could do to improve access, reduce price, and improve the quality of health care that doesn't cost a dime. I, like a lot of others, would have really liked to hear more about those things instead of another massive expenditure of money we don't have.

sfjayhawk 8 years, 9 months ago

Joe Wilson will quickly become the new face of the republican party. How sad.

remember_username 8 years, 9 months ago

Satirical - 1) It seems clear at this point that there is not enough support for the large scale public option the left wanted. Any widespread support eroded when it became clear the cost would have to be born by the taxpayer - at least initially. 2) I'm not sure about this one, but if I had to guess I would say that the failure to remove any obvious wasteful spending was do to the fact that it was not politically or financially expedient at the time - now it is. Crappy answer I know. 3) The administration will try, but their effectiveness will depend upon whose pockets are being lined and how much waste needs to be recouped. It will never be 100%. 4) There is some bureaucrat, computer program, or actuary determining what programs benefit seniors now. Nothing is ever going to guaranteed even if we stick with the status quo. My confidence level will be little changed but I can't speak for you.

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom, Obama was elected, not annointed. I know that chaps your hide especially after your many predictions that America wouldn't elect him, but he is, in fact, our elected president.

I have great confidence that health care reform will be a reality under this President and this Congress.

Just as we do not have only private schooling that only educates the children of those who can afford it, making sure all have access to health care is a necessity. Not sure why, but I suspect that too chaps your hide. Oh well.

sfjayhawk 8 years, 9 months ago


Check this video out - this is hardly a caricature anymore - this is more like an actual representation of a conversation with the republican leadership.

mom_of_three 8 years, 9 months ago

I wasn't able to view the speech on tv, but according to everything I have read on different sites, it went well. I am glad he was able to address the issues and problems created by those who want to perpetuate the myths of health care reform. Unfortunately, I don't think they were listening, just by going by what my extended family is still spouting. And I swear they all have good hearing, maybe just not common sense.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Agno - I'm with ya. Medicare and Medicade are both laudable programs. By calling them ponzi schemes I certainly didn't mean to impugn their noble purposes. The intent behind these programs is (largely) benevolent.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is the government has had over 40 years to get them right, and they're still broke - and getting broker. They unfortunately fit the description of a ponzi scheme to a T. In a few years when the Baby Boomer tsunami hits, they will be paying-out more in benefits than they are taking in. There never was a "trust fund" of money being set aside like what was supposed to happen. Congress (same with Social Security) spent the surplus and left IOU's in the "lock box."

Thats why I don't vote for anyone who belongs to the two major parties. It doesn't matter who is in charge of congress or the WH. They're all equally corrupt.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"Again, why does the mainstream, Obama-supporting media not report the facts? "

How funny. In support of your position you cite an article in one of the handful of national newspapers. Seems to me that the "mainstream" media has, in fact, reported it.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

"Speaking of lies with ObamaCare. “Transparency” in this administration? Give me a break."

Then Mr. Nancy goes on to post a link to an opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal.

Do you really fail to see the incongruent aspect of your post, Tom?

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

It is nice to see at least some in the GOP starting to distance themselves from the childish, lunatic right wing.

They realize that they cannot win any national office so long as they pander to this truly childish, selfish, and mean segment of our society. They have that 20% locked down. After all, who else will they vote for?

What Wilson displayed was the irrational childish anger displayed by so many tea-baggers and birthers and deathers and other liars.

McCain, Grassley, Snowe, Gingrich are all starting to realize the damage that these imbecils have done to the GOP.

Time for a good old fashioned GOP house cleaning.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

And Tom Shewmon still can't wrap his little pointed head around what "bias" means.

Why is this concept so very hard for you to understand?

Your man at the WSJ takes every statement and spins it to assume the worst "black helicopter" scenario possible.

You're way over the line, firmly into tinfoil territory.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

President Obama has outlined a rational and workable plan to solve problems related to health care. The plan itself and the logical method by which he explained it were so refreshing to hear coming from a president. Obama is certainly the most gifted orator we have had as president since Ronald Reagan and maybe since Kennedy. He puts Clinton to shame, and Clinton was very talented.

We will see how the angry, irrational childish right in congress respond to this.

Will they come and sit at the grown-up's table, or will they remain at the kid's table where they will cry and pull hair and throw food.

We shall see...

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

@tbaker You wrote, "Ralph, your memory is failing you. W was treated just as poorly by the dems. Regardless of party, such behavior out of members of congress is unprofessional..." I'll grant you that GWB was treated shabbily, but I don't remember when someone stood up on a joint session and shouted out, "You lie." I agree whole-heartedly, that behavior is unprofessional. I do notice that the House is not pursuing action and the President has accepted Wilson's apology in person.

I contend though that this behavior and discord is a step downward along a slippery slope that started shortly after WWII. I would say it started with Joe McCarthy around 1950, but that might be a stretch, not a big one though. Ranting, ad hominem attacks, refusing to listen, shouting people down and so on ad nauseum are all examples. It's unfortunate, but the Limbaugh/Coulter/Beck/Palin/O'Reilly melange parotting and discussion styles have reached from here to Congress.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about tort reform, buying insurance across state lines (portability?) and tax breaks.

@Agnostick. Good points in your 1052.

If Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid are ponzi schemes, how do we fix them? Pay out the benefits and have people invest on their own? I don't see any easy solution as once a huge government system is in place, it's inertia keeps it going and it becomes impossible to stop. I've heard anecdotal evidence that the SSA was a temporary intent, that has morphed grossly. How do we fix that? I would like to see an individual accounts option, but that's been shot down every time it's been brought up. Any ideas?

On another note. Did someone about write that the LJW was developing an ignore button, or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago


There is no booing or heckling in that clip. They are saying "no" and repeating no, when Bush is claiming that social security will go bust. They are disagreeing.

But thanks for posting it. Watching it reminded me how good it is that Obama is now president and Bush and Cheney are out.

No booing or heckling, though. Sorry.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"Obama said the changes he wants would cost about $900 billion over a decade, “less than we have spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and less than the tax cuts for the wealthiest few Americans” passed during the Bush administration."

a. Iraq & Afghanistan wars b. tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans c. health care reform

I choose "c" as the top priority for my tax dollars.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago


None of these was during a joint session of Congress.

Of course Reid and Pelosi said those things, just as many GOPers have called Obama a liar and a racist and a total failure.

No one ever yelled "liar" or anything else at Bush during a speech to a joint session.

What you have posted are political episodes that happen every day, unfortunately.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

Esq2eB said: "I do not want the Government in charge of my healthcare, my mothers healthcare, my grandmothers healthcare, etc. The same government that cannot reimburse auto dealerships for vehicles they promised to, the same government that runs the complete failure that Medicare and Medicaid are, the same government that runs the Postal Service at a loss, the government that has run Social Security into the ground…the examples go on and on and on."

Fair enough. You forgot to add "the same government that runs my military and fights my wars.

By your comments, I am assuming that you, your mother, and your grandmother will opt out of medicare when eligible.

I doubt it.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago


They are not boos. They are saying "no". Also, there is no heckling. I understand that you hear this as disrespecting the president, but do you dispute that there were no boos or heckling?

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

Oh, and by the way Esq2eB, you have been bested by an 11 year old girl.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Ralph - concur, although you ended you list of partisan bomb-throwers a little too soon. The left has it's share as well.

O'Reilly really doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the likes of Limbaugh / Coulter. He tends to be conservative, but not far right. Its hard to find someone in the main-stream media as close to the center as he tends to be. That said, he is a shameless self-promoter and often bombastic in his delivery, which turns a lot of people off, but it doesn't make him part of the shrill fringe.

Scott, et all, be careful in your scorn for tax cuts and war funding to justify spending on health care. You assume this sort of spending is wasteful and could have been put to much better use on health care spending - an opinion shared by many - but it assumes the spending would have happened regardless. This is called the "Begging the Question" fallacy in logic.

Nightmare - Which table do you sit at if you believe you can give better coverage to those who have insurance, put tens of millions more people into a gigantic new government entitlement program, pay for it by ending waste and abuse from other gigantic (not to mention bankrupt) government entitlement programs that has been going on for 40 years, claim you will lower health care costs across the country, create a government-run "exchange", and even include government health care coverage and not spend a dime - all at the same time.

As always, it was a well delivered speech. Its a laudable goal, but It doesn't pass the common sense test and we can't afford it.

feeble 8 years, 9 months ago

O'Reilly makes William F. Buckley, Jr look like Harry Reid.

KS 8 years, 9 months ago

It's about time someone called out this teleprompter guy for what he really is, a liar. BTW, the Dems did heckle Bush before a joint session. Just depends on which side you are on. This guy is really scary. I am beginning to like this Representative from South Carolina. He has more guts than BHO, he tells the truth.

ferrislives 8 years, 9 months ago

Agnostic: The right_thinker thing is hilarious. Please don't stop; it's like poking a paranoid troll ;-)

MyName 8 years, 9 months ago


If by "telling the truth" you mean "making a childish scene that only makes his side look dumb", then I might agree with you.

And you claim that "the Dems did heckle Bush". So name one time. Please settle this once and for all and give us all an example. Oh and while your at it, explain to me how past politicians doing anything like this makes it acceptable.

But then again, what else can you do when your side screws up badly and looks like the party of morons? Time to fire up Karl Rove's patented Reality Distortion Field and pretend it's all okay.

And again, and anonymous poster implying the President lacks "guts" and isn't "telling the truth". That's a -15 IDP (Internets Debating Points) for you.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

" BTW, the Dems did heckle Bush before a joint session."

I'd like to see some accounting of that...surely Fox would have had something about that...right?

"I am beginning to like this Representative from South Carolina. He has more guts than BHO, he tells the truth."

Except for the fact that what he said was patently, verifiably untrue.

salad 8 years, 9 months ago

It depresses me that someone as smart and capable as Obama, thought it'd be OK if there was "time for bickering". Why he didn't give this speech back in April or May and then ram this through is incomprehensible. The ham-handed way these guys have handled this crucial issue is depressing. If O-dude can't get this done, we're doomed. We have met the enemy, and they are us.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

"Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn't

...When we look at all of this evidence, it seems that health reform leaves in place the status quo on illegal immigration, and certainly does not provide any new benefits particularly for illegal immigrants....

The best argument that we find that health reform would help illegal immigrants is that some might be able to purchase the public option -- if it passes, and it might not -- on the new health insurance exchange. They would purchase that at full cost. Obama's said "the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," which Wilson said was a "lie." Actually, Obama can make a pretty thorough case that reform doesn't apply to those here illegally. We don't find the public option argument enough to make the case that Obama "lied." We rate Wilson's statement False."

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

Joe Wilson was in the wrong for what he did and John McCain let him know it. Wilson acted stupidly, absolutely, but lets not make too much out of this. At least he showed enough restraint to keep his shoes on.

Who knows, maybe McCain can arrange for Wilson and the President to have a beer together.

All kidding aside, what we really need to do is ignore the Wilsons out there and get health care reform resolved. Period.

Great speech last night, by the way.

Lacy Mohler 8 years, 9 months ago

I read somewhere that Nancy Pelosi directed a stern frown at Wilson. Nancy Pelosi hasn't been able to frown for years. She is one surgery and a good wig away from being Michael Jackson.

Obama continues to be an excellent speaker, but he could have recited "Green Eggs and Ham" last night and the Democrats would have claimed he was brilliant.

His administration has had one great accomplishment. The number of uninsured has fallen from 46 million to 30 million. He had to remove those here illegally--for now.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Back in May, House Republicans wrote to the President. “… respectfully request a meeting with you to discuss areas for potential common ground on health care reform.”

Back in July, the President said: “When we come back in September, I will be available to answer any question that members of Congress have. If they want to come over to the White House and go over line by line what's going on, I will be happy to do that.”

Last night the President said: “If you come to me with a serious set of proposals, I will be there to listen. My door is always open.”

The Republicans have asked for a meeting with the President, and he has repeatedly said he would be happy to do it. So why hasn't it happened?

I found it interesting to note that when the President made his "door is always open" remark, a number of Republican members in the chamber held up the bills they’ve introduced which have been ignored by the White House.

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

@tbaker. You wrote, "Ralph - concur, although you ended you list of partisan bomb-throwers a little too soon. The left has its share as well."

I agree completely. However, the melange of which I spoke also has a regional reference.

bad_dog 8 years, 9 months ago

” BTW, the Dems did heckle Bush before a joint session.”

before as in prior to, or before as in front of a joint session of Congress?

I could at least imagine the former occurring depending upon how heckled is defined given it's tough to heckle someone who isn't present. Criticize or even speaking derisively of Pres. Bush in an forthright manner? Certainly. Heckled him? I'll wait on proof of the latter, but won't hold my breath.

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

Version 5 of your standard rant, Tom, or 3. They're so similar I sometimes have trouble telling them apart.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

"...a number of Republican members in the chamber held up the bills they’ve introduced which have been ignored by the White House."

This was the first I have heard of the republican "bills". Maybe they should have used August as a chance to present their "bills" to the American people.

Where was Fox News to help these GOP legislators get their bills some air time?

Oh, that's right. August was the time for lunatic fear-mongering and lying about the president's health care proposals. What GOP legislator could find the time to present their own ideas?

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"Nothing can save this trainwreck of an administration and congress. Like I said before, I'm just sitting back and watching them slowly implode."

Except, of course, they are not.

The economy is stabalizing and showing signs of improvement. The stock market is recovering (I am up 20%plus this year, thank you very much.) Healthcare reform has progressed farther than ever before through the legislative process and faces at least an even chance of success. Cash for clunkers was overwhelmingly popular, helped an ailing car industry, and will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. We are extracting our troops from george bush's war of choice. Our national reputation is imrpving around the world and our President has the respect of other world leaders.

Imploding? No that's just the first 9 months. Can't wait to see the next 7.25 years unfold.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"This was the first I have heard of the republican “bills”. Maybe they should have used August as a chance to present their “bills” to the American people."

If the American people were interested in the republican approach wouldn't they have voted them more political power to accomplish their goals? I believe it was the Democratic approach that prevailed at the ballot box. Maybe the repubs should introduce their bills, see how much support they can garner from their peers and put their ideas to votes. I'd guess they would not get very far. Easier to just scream like a 3 year old and throw a tantrum because they can't get their way at the moment. They'll grow up someday.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Agno - I went to the Blog and I don't see a 1:13 post. Sorry.

I saw the guy with the "What Bill?" sign. This isn't what I was referring to. I'm talking about the congressmen who were holding up (what appeared to me) proposed (republican) legislation to refute the charge they've offered nothing to the debate. See:

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Scott - so what about the almost 10% unemployment rate? If Cash for Clunkers was so great, how come the US automotive sector lost 15,000 jobs in August? The national debt has increased $1.1 trillion dollars since the president's inauguration. If all of his plans are implemented, he will have presided over more spending than the sum total of every US president from Washington to Bush - combined. This is economic improvement in your book? This is the first you've heard of the republican health care bills? How limited is your knowledge of the health care subject? With the exception of your observation about the stock market, the rest of your rant is baseless partisan tripe that detracts from productive dialog.

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom, you have no "viewpoint." This ridiculous and continuous conspiracy theory rant of the "leftist media" is just childish, but it isn't a "viewpoint."

And if you failed to notice, allow me to point out that Obama was elected by the people, not annointed. I know you hate the people and the power of the ballot box, but that is the way it is here in America.

MyName 8 years, 9 months ago

If people were to see your viewpoint going back to the last presidency, they would need to make themselves myopic Tom. Your the one walking around with blinders and you act like we're deluded.

I mean, on the one hand, we've got someone trying to tackle one of the most complex issues we've got as a country giving a convincing speech, and then the obstructionist right wingers up there are pulling antics worthy of a three year old. And anyone who points out that this is idiotic is, according to you, now a victim of some BS leftist media conspiracy.

The worst part of this is that, instead of looking at actual policy and finding the best course of action, our elected officials are having to waste their time on this sophomoric tripe.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

"This is the first you've heard of the republican health care bills?"

They've offered nothing. The pieces of paper you were referring to were symbolic. The GOP has offered exactly one proposal, which failed to say a) what the plan included, or b) what it would cost, or c) how they proposed to pay that (not enumerated) cost.

Boy! That's impressive.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

Republicans are just pathetic.

From this chumps web site:


"Except that he's not─at least not when it comes to his, and his family's, government-run health care. As a retired Army National Guard colonel, Wilson gets a lot of benefits (one of which, apparently, was not a full appreciation of the customs, traditions, and courtesies that mandate respect for one's commander in chief). And with four sons in the armed services, the entire Wilson brood has enjoyed multiple generations of free military medical coverage, known as TRICARE."

"Military beneficiaries like Wilson─who, as a retiree, is eligible for lifetime coverage─never have to worry about an eye exam, a CT scan, a prolonged labor, or an open-heart surgery. They have access not only to the military's 133,500 uniformed health professionals, but cooperating private doctors as well─whose fees are paid by the Department of Defense. It's high-quality care, too: surveys from 2007 and 2008 list TRICARE among "the best health insurer(s) in the nation" by customer satisfaction. Yet Wilson insists government-run health care is a problem."

Let's look at the record!

Joe Wilson: voted 11 times against health care for veterans in eight years;jsessionid=4FCB9D3B3C67118449D30E64A1B4ED62?diaryId=160

He voted to cut veterans' benefits─not his own─to make room for President George W. Bush's tax cuts.

He repeatedly voted for budgets that slashed funding to the Veterans Administration and TRICARE.

And perhaps most bizarrely, he refused─repeatedly─to approve Democratic-led initiatives that would have extended TRICARE coverage to all reservists and National Guard members, even though a disproportionate number of them have served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan─and many lost access to their civilian work benefits when they did so."

All this guy is missing is an on-mic graphic description of an adulterous affair or to be caught with an underage male page in a bathroom stall to be the proto-typical republican.

Ladies and gentlemen, your GOP in action.

KS 8 years, 9 months ago

This should be the link that shows the Dems booing at Bush at the 2005 Joint Session. I may not have copied that correctly since I am not a "cut and paste" type of person like so many of the folks posting here, but I suspect the techs can figure it out, should they choose to do so. Where is Merrill when I need him? Does this settle anything? Probably not.

Jimo 8 years, 9 months ago

Hmmm....Tom Shoesomething representing the views from the alternative world of Jackassery Park and Marion's back to smokin doobies. Ah LJW! The best entertainment (no) money can buy.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Jimmy - so they've offered nothing huh? Looks like you get your news (or the lack of it) from the same place Scott does.

In the last five months, Republican members of congress have offered over 800 amendments to the democratic health care legislation.

On this website, you can read all about the 35 different legislative proposals / draft bills they have offered in addition to their amendments.

You heard the President (since last May) offer to meet with republicans and discuss health care? How come that meeting hasn't happened?

The answer is simple: partisan politics, just like the sort you're spewing. Like I've said before, this isn't about health care, it's about preserving and expanding federal government power.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 8 years, 9 months ago

Hey everybody, why don't we just leave old Tom alone. We all know his position now, he makes his position perfectly clear. And makes, and makes, and makes. Let him be. He obviously enjoys the attention and really gets off donning his brown shirt and red armband and jackboots and marching around screaming his epithets. Such people disconnect themselves from rational debate and merely embrace the rush limbaugh fan club routine, spew, spew, spew. I wonder if Tom has any t-shirts and coffee mugs to sell??

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago


All the horribles you mention are pretty much the result of a generation of repulican mismanagement of the our society for the benefit of their backers. Obama has charted a course meant to improve upon that state of affairs.

The spending? Every President spends more than any previous President. bush, cheney and the republicans dug a big hole in the last eight years, it takes a lot of spending to pull us back from the brink they had taken us to. Collectively we voted and decided as a society to try Obama's approach. As mentioned, the economy has stabilized, the market is improving and eventually so will the employment numbers and we will be better off for having invested the spending in our society. The size of spending worries me not. I believe our country is still well situated to innovate, develop new technologies and products and generally out perform other countries around the world. We will earn back this investment we are making in our futures. In days past, there were always those who claimed it was too much money to spend to set out to explore new worlds, build transcontinental railroads, go to the moon, develop the internet, etc... But always there have been those smart and forward thinking enough to imagine the progress that investments can yield. Thank God, right?

I am unaware of any serious republican bill reforming health care. The legislative process requires that Congress vote on and pass bills in order to accomplish the changes to our society that will bring us to a more perfect union. I highly doubt the republicans have any chance of passing any bill, but perhaps they should try. They don't have the votes largely as a result of their prior mismanagement, but let them put their ideas to a vote of the Congress, that's our system. As the Presidnet has stated and demonstrated, those good ideas that the republicans have will win the battle of ideas and may be included in bills that ultimately are passed in to law. But, to date, their good ideas have been far and few between.

Jimo 8 years, 9 months ago

Two points I don't see mentioned:

  1. By making a spectacle once again of the (even still) increasingly racist GOP by obsessing over certain dark skin undocumented residents, Republicans have all but guaranteed the permanent estrangement of the Hispanic vote, at least at the national level. Given that HR 3200 says flat out "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States" (or that fed law already disallows federal health programs to qualify the undocumented for assistance) Hispanics will only see this as a Party determined to offend them and misunderstand their interests (despite all the work W did to attract them). The last election even saw stalwart Cuban-Americans wavering in their unilateral voting, many of the younger generation throwing their vote to Obama. After the Sotomayer boondoggle, it seems questionable how, in 2012 or 2016 even, the GOP would be able to assemble a majority in a two-party race as there are only so many white country club members and extremist rural types to go around. Republicans are having trouble retaining moderate/conservative whites who've voted Republican all their lives. Karl Rove's 'genius' has long since collapsed of its own (bloated) weight.

  2. Democrats are (in part) to blame for Rep. Wilson and all the other extremist wackos (in both parties). The culprit is the insistence, partly understandable, on gerrymandering congressional districts to all but guarantee the election of minority representatives. Doing so only makes the 'other' districts all the more non-white. Given the large minority population in South Carolina, I can guarantee that if Rep. Wilson's district were redrawn in a manner that would equitably distribute both white and black votes, he would either (a) have a quick epiphany as to the reasonableness of this black president or (b) be out on his ear. Census time is around the corner Democrats - how about a reform movement for gerrymandering?

Don Zimmer 8 years, 9 months ago

The two most powerfull people in the last two elections. Dick Chaney who never blinks and Nancy Pelosi whose botoxed face blinks. The animatronics group at Disney have improved with Robots 2.0 upgrade.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

KS, I already debunked your video link earlier in the thread. Someon else posted it, who had also obviously not watched it, either.

They are not booing, but saying "no" repeatedly when Bush says social security will fail soon. There is no booing and no heckling.

Here is the link again so folks can make up their minds.

If this is the only evidence of Bush being booed, then your case is over.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

The GOP can wave "bills" and create websites listing "proposals" all they want.

If they had had serious health care proposals, then why were they not out discussing them during the month of August? Certainly Fox News and other right-wing media outlets would have given them air time to describe their proposals.

The answer is that they didn't have any real proposals. They instead chose to use August to engage in fanatical fear-mongering and lying about Obama's proposal.

When it comes to GOP health care proposals, there is no there there, despite waving "bills" and nice lists on websites.

tbaker 8 years, 9 months ago

Scott - Every President spends. Actually congress does, but I got it. How many Presidents spend more than the grand total of all of their predecessors combined? Spending $500 million a day on the just the interest on the national debt doesn't bother you, huh? It sure bothers me. If they knew better, it would terrify my kids because they are going to be stuck with the bill.

I suspect you're unaware of republican health care ideas because a) you don't like them, so you discount what ever they may have to say out of hand and b) democrats control the congress, so they control what happens in committees and what gets voted on / debated.

President Obama won an election - not a national mandate. Society didn't decide to do it his way bar-none. Thats not what it means to win a Presidential election. He won the election because President Bush and the republicans were terribly unpopular. Just about anybody the dems trotted out there would have beat McCain. It was a lock. It wouldn't be today however. The independents (like me) who put the President over the top no longer support him like they did in the election.

Being independent, being someone who believes organized political parties should be out-lawed, I look at the whole landscape without a partisan lens. I judge ideas on their merits, not ideology. The political parties keep us fighting each other. As long as we waste our breath on these partisan rants, they get to dodge the issue and blame the other guy. Nothing gets done.

Vote against all incumbents.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 9 months ago

KS and Esq2eB both posted this video without actually watching it.

If you google "bush booed congress", this is the fifth site on the list.

Boys, better watch those videos before you post them as damning evidence of Bush being heckled and booed in Congress.

Just because it says so on the title of the link doesn't mean it is true.

The gullibility of you two is hilarious.

tomatogrower 8 years, 9 months ago

Wilson is the liar and the bigot.
"Claim: Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens Misleading. It’s true that page 91 says that insurance companies selling plans through the new exchange “shall provide for culturally and linguistically appropriate communication and health services.” The author’s “translation,” however, assumes that anyone speaking a foreign language or from another culture is an illegal immigrant, which is false."

Go here to find all the lies that have been spread around about the health care plan. It's bad enough when bogus emails go around with lies, but when legislators actually quote these lies, it's even worse. Shouldn't they have to pass some sort of intelligence tests? Of course, I don't think South Carolina is known for their outstanding educational facilities. Good old bubbas don't need no elitist, high falutin' education.

tomatogrower 8 years, 9 months ago

Hey, snap, why not respond to the lies of Wilson and his kind? Can't do it can you?

jaywalker 8 years, 9 months ago

" Obama spoke in favor of a provision for the federal government to sell insurance in competition with private industry. But in a remark certain to displease liberals, he did not insist on it, and said he was open to other alternatives that create choices for consumers."

Still not focusing on THE problem. Absolutely ridiculous. Our government "selling insurance" should never, ever be an option or even mentioned. Saying it would be a "competition" with private insurers is a joke, the deck is completely stacked in their favor and they can make the rules and print the money as they go along. If the President wants to reform the industry then by all means, reform it. Find a way to control and lower costs and help to subsidize state run programs for those that can't qualify under current standards. We need leadership and direction--that's the role of government. Their job is not to play wet nurse. Allowing our elected imbeciles to absorb this gargantuan industry has catastrophe written all over it.

On a seperate note and without reading a single comment on this string prior to posting, I'm bettin' one fourth of the posts have called Wilson a racist. Makes me laugh just thinking about it. I think it was disrespectful and exceptionally brassy and stupid to shout out like that, Congress ain't Parliament, thank the Lord. And I have no idea whether there is any language currently in any of the proposals that specifies one way or another that illegals will be covered. But if you think they won't be, you're kidding yourself.

ENGWOOD 8 years, 9 months ago

Pea-Brain Liberals sure have short & selective memories!!!!!

camper 8 years, 9 months ago

Jaywalker, the Tennessee Valley Authority might be a decent example of a government held entity created to increase competition in a business sector. While the TVA's lasting benefits can be debated, it certainly can be considered moderately successful and did much good for the Mid-Atlantic region.

camper 8 years, 9 months ago

There was a feeling of revulsion that went through me when the President was heckled and I think I would have had the same feeling if this happened to George Bush when he was our President.

jayhawklawrence 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom: “ObamaCare is a Trojan Horse for more forced unionization.”

I never in my life thought I would ever agree with anything Tom said. To me, he's always been a right wing loonie tunes.

But...I am starting to see things in the Obama administration that concern me. I am concerned about the increasing power of unions in the Obama administration. The reason: I have spent time talking with Americans socialists in Detroit and they scared me. Michigan is a historical center of radical left wing activities.

Some of the people Obama hung out with in the past were not mainstream. What gives?

Yes, it was a great speech. He is a great speaker. Where have we seen that before?

But the Republicans failed to take responsibility to fix a broken system. Who are they going to blame but themselves.

Right now, we are driving in the fog on health care.

bad_dog 8 years, 9 months ago

"On a seperate note and without reading a single comment on this string prior to posting, I'm bettin' one fourth of the posts have called Wilson a racist."

Not even close jaywalker. The word racist(s) has been mentioned four times in this string-including your call-out. None included a reference to Rep. Wilson. Two referred generically to the GOP and one stated the Repubs have called Obama a racist.

jaywalker 8 years, 9 months ago


The problem with the TVA as an example is its size and scope. There was a problem with private utility owners gouging prices, but the TVA was a prudent move coming out of the depression for a myriad of other reasons as well, like bringing that lustrous but backwater region into the 20th century. And while I believe it's been a success and has stood the test of time, it still only involves 5 or 6 states or parts of states.
I want reform, there needs to be changes, no argument about it. But once our government starts down this path it will not stop until the entire industry is an arm of the bureacracy. Pretending that they're only going to provide an 'option' is ludicrous; I'm not sure if I should be angry with them for treating us like we're stupid or angry with us for forgetting the 'fool me once' axiom.

One other thing is certain about all this: this is political football. The left knows passage of this type of legislation would be perhaps the biggest coup in progressive history and virtually guarantee President Obama a second term. The right is aware of this as well and can't afford to let that happen.

KS 8 years, 9 months ago

yourworstnightmare - You didn't debunk anything. You made my point. If they are repeatedly saying "NO", then that is heckling the speaker. Good night.

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

jaywalker: "On a seperate note and without reading a single comment on this string prior to posting, I'm bettin' one fourth of the posts have called Wilson a racist."

How much you bettin'?

From what I've seen, not a single person called Wilson a racist. There was, however, a single mention of racism among elected Republicans in general that also raised the issue of their response to Sotomayor. Right or wrong it was not, however, Wilson specific. So you see jay, despite your often-stated beliefs of charges of racism coming without cause, people generally don't actually do that. Usually there is a good reason for making such a claim, and it isn't just imagined. On the other hand, your assumption was imagined.

Wilson didn't display racism and there is no reason to believe his outburst was racially motivated. That seems downright silly. I only know he is a partisan hack who embarrassed himself in front of the entire nation. Likewise, you too have now embarrassed yourself with your statement, which is admittedly on a much smaller scale here on this board.

I wouldn't be surprised if John McCain now comes and tells you to apologize to everyone who has left a comment here.

weeslicket 8 years, 9 months ago

i will acknowledge that i am in late on this convrersation, and also that i have not read any of the previous comments.

  1. i am pleased that president obama is instructing our duly elected legislative representatives to engage in this task in a real way.
    i am pleased that our representatives are mostly in charge of this task.
    this is democracy in its inception; as it was conceived so long ago.
  2. and i am tired of leadership by presidential fiat.
  3. i am glad that after 16 years, we now have a grown-up in the white house.
  4. i feel that some members of our duly elected representatives demonstrated some truly sophomoric behavior. and that's just bad for all of us.

jaywalker 8 years, 9 months ago


Way too late in the string to go over the whole thing, but I would have taken your word for it that there've been no such accusations if I hadn't done a short stroll back-string and found....

"Wilson is the liar and the bigot." tomatogrower. Perhaps there aren't many such claims throughout, but this.....

"despite your often-stated beliefs of charges of racism coming without cause, people generally don't actually do that."............ exceptionally naive and not a little simple-minded on your part. Stating that "people generally" don't do that is painting with an exceptionally broad brush. But in the context of this forum it happens over and over, time after time.
In any case, I'd be happy to stand corrected if noone was doing such. I agree with your assessment that it would be silly, so that's a plus if it's non-existent. Why you found it necessary to get snotty, I don't know. I've been more than happy to converse with you respectfully.

jimmyjms 8 years, 9 months ago

"Jimmy - so they've offered nothing huh?"

Tbaker - did you even read your own so-called examples?

When the minority demands that the majority give up everything that they're pushing for, that's neither negotiation nor bipartisanship. It's closer to "one for you and two for me."

Nice try though.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"And while I believe it's been a success and has stood the test of time, it still only involves 5 or 6 states or parts of states. I want reform, there needs to be changes, no argument about it. But once our government starts down this path it will not stop until the entire industry is an arm of the bureacracy."

Jaywalker, can you see your contradiction within the space of just 3 sentences? TVA is a success and limited, but once government starts down this path it will not stop. Can't have it both ways brother.

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

@agnostick. Still looking for his voting record, but Joe Wilson supported GWB in Iraq and advocates closer military ties with India. That came from the National Journal

On the Issues gives a much better look at his voting record, which lists him as a hard-core conservative.

The following is, in a nutshell, his voting record. Pro-life Anti GayRights Anti Affirmative Action Pro Business Hard on Drugs Anti Public Education Opposition to Energy Independence Pro Family Pro Fairtrade Pro Gun rights Anti Public Health Pro Military Anti Senior Opposes Separation of church and state

(As a side note, "On the Issues" seems interesting; I just bookmarked it.)

re: Tom's 2051. I think that's rant version 7.3.

bad_dog 8 years, 9 months ago

Tom, you really sound like the one that's "shrill and defensive". ACORN, Kooks, Anointed Savior. Talk about being unable to give it up... I'm sure you and your brand of "freedom" will save us from our own naivete/stupidity, though.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and "move on"?

Sweet dreams - of Obama's 2nd term that is.

jaywalker 8 years, 9 months ago


Poorly phrased on my part. TVA was always small in scope in context of the whole country. The government's 'one small step' into this industry is already whole-nation-encompassing, and once their's a toe in the door for that much power......well, that's what I was refering to.

kateku 8 years, 9 months ago

I enjoyed the ELECTED Presidents speech on health care reform. I really liked the parts where he told us that if we already had health insurance we could keep it. Does that mean that there will be no single-payer system?

I have an honest question... why can't we just buy into Medicare at any age?

And Tim... what does The Anointed One mean?

Chris Golledge 8 years, 9 months ago

Can't add much here, but this caught me.

“Replacing your family’s current health care with government-run health care is not the answer,”

True enough, but maybe replacing no health care plan and emergency room visits with a government health are plan and office visits could be part of the answer.

Chris Golledge 8 years, 9 months ago

You know, there are lot's of people out there who do not have insurance, who go to emergency rooms whenever they need health care, and have no means of paying for the emergency care. A lot of the care they could have received at a doctor's office at less total cost, but they can't get a physician to accept them as a patient because the doctor knows he/she won't get paid. I've got some people like this in my own family.

I guarantee you that someone is paying for this care. Who is paying for it? Well, mostly I think it is people who purchase health insurance. The hospital needs to recover its cost or it goes out of business; so, where do they get the money? I don't know, but maybe this has something to do with why they charge $7 for one(1) Tylenol. So, making people who don't have insurance get some isn't necessarily going to cost those who are already paying for it pay more.

Stephen Roberts 8 years, 9 months ago

Can the President please have his wife go around talking about healthcare??? I really enjoyed listening to her speak without having his handlers talking for her.

How do you know when a politician his lying?? His or her lips are moving!!

How do you know Nancy Pelosi (insert any politician) is lying?? She is breathing...

exhawktown 8 years, 9 months ago

No time to read all comments, but I did read one that indicated Bush wasn't treated with such disrespect while addressing congress (or something like that).

Not quite true.

ferrislives 8 years, 9 months ago

If Obama was elected before Bush, I'm sure that Tom would mean: The more Bush and congress drop in the polls, the more shrill and defensive the right gets. The far-right, most of this forum are just about to turn inside out. Hating Obama for so long did not allow for clear thinking. It's really a shame for ya'll.

How strange and familiar!

Richard Heckler 8 years, 9 months ago

Whether a company picks up the tab,it's a partnership or individually the most expensive insurance in the world comes back to us as consumers each time we make a purchase.

For 2010 full coverage think $18,310. If not full coverage then it is under insured which is truly a waste of money. Under insured will not see anyone through a long term serious situation such as cancer.

By the time one spends the co-pay,the deductible and the under insured premium cost how much are you spending?

Is being under insured worth the under insured premium considering what one must spend before the insurance company finally finally comes to your aid?

Consider the amount on is throwing away to be underinsured. Then consider how much is devoted to co-pays and deductibles? Add them together.

Would one have been money ahead paying out of pocket and putting the remainder in a savings account instead of GIVING it to the high profit medical insurance industry?

Read the fine prints in your policies.

gogoplata 8 years, 9 months ago

The root cause of the health care crisis in this country is government interference. Of course, many in the insurance industry have taken full advantage of their lobbying power and monopolies, but they have been able to do this because of the government.

It is government that prohibits individuals from being able to shop across state lines for insurance.

It is government that imposes thousands of mandates on insurance providers.

It is government that created HMOs in the 1970s.

It is government that has skewed the market to prop up third party payers.

Simply put, the problems with health care in America are TOO MUCH government interference already. The solution is to lessen government control - NOT give them more power!

beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago

Jay, I got a little snotty with you because your assumption that at least a third of the posts would call Wilson a racist was, in my opinion, way over the top and a case in point of your doing exactly what you have since accused me of doing -- painting with a broad brush. I feel that was an ugly accusation to make about liberals and Democrats in general, since they are the ones who would be speaking out against Wilson.

However, I did add in the bit about John McCain coming to ask you to apologize as a light-hearted joke meant to demonstrate that I wasn't taking it too seriously. In the hopes that we can continue to converse respectfully, I'll just ignore your "simple minded" dig. Maybe Obama can have us over for a beer to talk it out. Peace, bea

jaywalker 8 years, 9 months ago

"I feel that was an ugly accusation to make about liberals and Democrats in general"

Cool w/ what you had to say, bea, but the above never ceases to amaze me. My comment was not directed toward liberals or democrats, but simply to those that like to throw out the race card at the drop of a hat. There certainly isn't any pre-conditioned political affiliation behind it, at least not in my mind. I also find it funny that you believe only those particular groups would "speak out against Wilson" when darn near everyone from both sides of the aisle has already done so. I've done so, anyone with a modicum of common sense has done so. It was disrespectful and sophomoric. Don't have to be on the left to say so.

Flap Doodle 8 years, 9 months ago

Thready McThreadjack here, it seems that ACORN just got tossed under the bus by the census folks. "...But from a political standpoint, the feds dumping the president’s favorite community organizers for simply being too filthy to associate with is devastating." Having ACORN employees in two offices get caught on camera advising people how to hide underage prostitutes as business associates was a bit of a sticky wicket. The newly unemployed ACORN folks will be needing some of that new free health care.....

bad_dog 8 years, 9 months ago

"It is government that imposes thousands of mandates on insurance providers."

Yes, like ensuring financial solvency, policy language pre-approval prior to marketing to enhance consumer understanding of products, premium rate approval, company and agency licensing, intervention on behalf of consumers, etc.

You can't help but despise an entity that imposes their oversight. Let's just forgo all these silly formalities, they're so obviously unnecessary.

Ralph Reed 8 years, 9 months ago

snap, wrong thread. We all know it happened and I agree the result of the setup was disgusting. However, let's check other sources also and not just an untra-conservative "new" outlet. Start a blog on this why don't you.

gogoplata 8 years, 9 months ago

Almost all government programs have good intentions. But they all come with plenty of unintended consequences. It is not the governments job to ensure financial solvency or any of the other stuff you mentioned. Try finding in the constitution where government has the authority.

bad_dog 8 years, 9 months ago

"Try finding in the constitution where government has the authority."

You have got to be kidding. Please retake your junior high civics classes for a primer on the establishment of governmental authority.

FYI. A state insurance regulator is not a "government program" and the factors I noted above are all the result of duly promulgated laws and regulations.

gogoplata 8 years, 9 months ago

The constitution is the law of the land. It is superior to any law enacted by congress. All elected officials take an oath to uphold the constitution. This oath is contiually ignored by almost all of them. Why to they take an oath to protect preserve and defend the constitution if they don't even try to follow it? So it isn't just Obama, they are all liars. The current liar in chief is just following in the footsteps of W, Slick Willie, Papa Bush, the Gipper and so on. The 9th and 10th amendments specifically say that powers that are not given to the congress are retained by the states. There are 17 powers given to the congress in the constitution. Healthcare isn't one of them.

Scott Drummond 8 years, 9 months ago

"There are 17 powers given to the congress in the constitution. Healthcare isn't one of them. "

But interstate commerce is & the Congress has used that provision to act in a thousand different ways. You're barking up a useless tree.

gogoplata 8 years, 9 months ago

Until we the people decide to quit the WWF political partisan game and start electing politicians who revere the constitution you are right about barking up a useless tree.

Sunny Parker 8 years, 9 months ago

Hussein, Pelosi and Barry are all going to hell with Acorn. God i can't wait!

It's going to get good!

I would like to send Wilson a thank you card!

Mixolydian 8 years, 9 months ago

Does anyone watch the British House of Parliament on BBC? Those guys make Wilson look like a wallflower.

Wilson acted in the grand tradition of our cultural heritage... and has been pointed out different than his democrat collegues.

Stop this hand wringing you partisan fussy britches.

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