Archive for Saturday, July 4, 2009
Should we celebrate freedom of religion on July 4?
July 4, 2009
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Country gives freedom to choose religion
Ron Channell, pastor, Family Church of Lawrence, 5150 Clinton Parkway:
Independence Day represents the foundation of our freedom to worship our Lord. Today, 52 countries in the world restrict the gospel message, not allowing the Holy Bible in their countries. Our founding fathers did not take this blessing for granted. Nor should we.
Our Declaration of Independence clearly identifies God as our lawmaker, creator, supreme judge and protector. A tour through Washington would reiterate the biblical foundation on which we stand.
The Washington Monument, Capitol, Supreme Court, Library of Congress (just to name a few) are filled with biblical imagery and Scriptures.
We live in the greatest country in the world. It allows us to celebrate our religious freedoms.
America doesn’t force religion on anyone — just as Christ doesn’t force his amazing love on anyone. It’s a personal choice.
What a great country we live in, and what a great God who supplied it. Choose him today!
— Send e-mail to Ron Channell at ronchannell@gmail.com.
Religious freedom cause for celebration
Doug Heacock, contemporary worship leader, Lawrence Free Methodist Church, 3001 Lawrence Ave.:
All Americans have good reason to celebrate Independence Day.
The Declaration of Independence set the stage for the Bill of Rights some years later, the First Amendment to which both prohibits our government from establishing an official state religion and protects the rights of citizens to practice their religion as they choose.
While the meanings of the “religion” clauses in the First Amendment have been debated and, at times, twisted by some into a view that politics and religion should never intersect, we still enjoy religious freedom in our nation, and it is a freedom that should never be taken for granted, because there are still places in our world where these freedoms do not exist officially and where there is still religious persecution.
We who believe that God is real should definitely celebrate our Independence Day, and express our gratitude to God, to those who gave their lives to secure our freedom and to those who have risked and given their lives to protect those freedoms.
— Send e-mail to Doug Heacock at doug.heacock@gmail.com.
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4 July 2009
at 7:38 a.m.
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queequeg (Anonymous) says…
Ron “I've never bothered to read the Decalaration of Independence” Channell says:
“Independence Day represents the foundation of our freedom to worship our Lord”
No, it recognizes the signing of the Declaration of Independence which proclaimed our independence from Britain.
“Our Declaration of Independence clearly identifies God as our lawmaker, creator, supreme judge and protector”
Actually, the Declartation is seen as one of the first 'humanist' documents. Although they mention 'a Creator' or 'Nature's God', they stay away from mentioning any particular god, and put control in the hands of people. Compared to other documents of its time, it is notable for its lack of mentioning the xtian god.
Power to the People!
4 July 2009
at 12:50 p.m.
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Pywacket (Anonymous) says…
I'd rather practice freedom from religion—something we must vigilantly guard if we don't want militant fundamentalist Christians curtailing our every right in the name of their imaginary leader.
Many of the founding fathers were famously indifferent to the idea of a god or gods, something pastors, who are hardly unbiased on the subject, conveniently overlook—or simply haven't read enough to know. Keep your beliefs out of my government. The very worst and most oppressive governments in the world are often predicated on religion.
6 July 2009
at 11:43 a.m.
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Chasmodai (Anonymous) says…
Yes, I'm very thankful that I have the freedom to not accept imaginary love from a dead guy!
6 July 2009
at 12:08 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Where does it define a creator or a “god”? No where!
The worst dictator's and human rights abusers are and always have been religion driven.
As saying goes, “oh god, please protect me from your true believers”
6 July 2009
at 12:34 p.m.
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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Sinclair Lewis said, “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross”.
6 July 2009
at 12:58 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
But Alia, I think Sinclair Lewis could not have known about Nancy Pelosi's gavel and Barack Obama's Blackberry–in reference to the arrival of fascism that is.
beoB, I never realized Adolf Hitler was a very religous man, was he? I think his beef with the Jews was about money and commerce and industrializaion, not their religion.
6 July 2009
at 1:20 p.m.
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cthulhu_4_president (Anonymous) says…
“beoB, I never realized Adolf Hitler was a very religous man, was he?”
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Actually, yes. The consensus among historians is that he can be considered Catholic. In public he was known to tout Christian values, and speak on Germany's status as a good Christian nation.
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“I think his beef with the Jews was about money and commerce and industrializaion, not their religion.”
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In the mind of the street-level SS thug (disheartened, downtrodden WWI ex-soldier feeling screwed by the Treaty of Versailles), this was true, however Hitler did use popular interpretations of Christianity at the time as a springboard for his anti-semitism (already rampant in the area before the formation of the Nazi party). In “Mein Kampf” Hitler places all societies into two groups: cultural carriers and cultural creators. The Aryan race, obviously, was the greatest cultural creator on Earth. The Jews, in contrast, possessed no markers of what Hitler considered “culture”. He perceived every bit of the Jewish culture, from the religion to the lifestyle and concluded that their culture was in no way original, and survived by festering and stealing from other cultures, making the Jews a “cultural carrier” whom he insisted would weaken the strength of the stronger, more legitimate, cultures that they leech off of.
So, depending on who you ask, the SS grunt would probably say that the Jews are commanding too much money, but the Reich's philosophical leaders woul have a more encopassing response that did include a religous foundation.
6 July 2009
at 1:35 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Tom, think cthulhu_4_president answered the question accurately. I was thinking more along the lines of the crusades and the middle ages. And thinking of the last 8 years and that administration. After all W talked talked to “god”.
6 July 2009
at 1:53 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
Religion and race are two entirely different concepts. Hitler wanted a pure race, not a pure religion, whatever that would/could be. Hitler in short, was very jealous of Jews, and well, not to mention the obvious–the guy was b*tsh*t crazy. I do not condone nor subscribe to any religious nuts. Like the time I had had enough of my now deceased parental unit constantly listening to the 700 Club and going to that screwball, Benny Hins big shin-digs and I more or less told them they were getting suckered. That did not go over very well AT all! That's not for me, and yes, religious persecution has existed. So, and now, we have other forms of societal/ideological persecutions of sorts, so you can't just point a finger at religoin, many followers of which are good people and mean no harm to anyone.
6 July 2009
at 1:53 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Logan72, I think Sinclair Lewis was startlingly prescient in that instance.
Whenever I hear the words “fascism” and “religion” in the same sentence, I'm immediately reminded of Margaret Atwood's “The Handmaid's Tale.”
If the extreme (Religious) Right were actually given all the power they crave… would we end up with something resembling the Republic of Gilead?
With all the catterwalling about the current administration about “socialism,” “communism” and every other -ism out there, it's certainly valid to turn the mirror in the other direction.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
6 July 2009
at 2 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
“If the extreme (Religious) Right were actually given all the power they crave… would we end up with something resembling the Republic of Gilead?”
Agnostick, I totally agree with you–seriously. But, that could also apply to many different groups, if given the headcount and the power. The extreme left has gained considerable power over the past several years and we're just starting to see where this could possibly lead us. I'm anxious to see to be quite honest.
6 July 2009
at 2:12 p.m.
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Newell_Post (Anonymous) says…
Since freedom of religion is one of the core elements of the first amendment, yes we should celebrate in on July 4. And everyday we should vigorously oppose all enemies, foreign and domestic, who would seek to destroy or impair it.
6 July 2009
at 2:20 p.m.
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jimmyjms (Anonymous) says…
Howsabout you just keep it to yourself?
If Jesus/Buddha/Muhammad/Yahweh or (insert imaginary pal here) wants to get a hold of me, he/she/it should, ostensibly, know where to find me.
6 July 2009
at 2:23 p.m.
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tolawdjk (Anonymous) says…
@ beobatcher:
I am continually amazed by the ability for “conservatives” to ignore science and “liberals” to ignore history when it suits their purposes.
You are going to be hard pressed to find -one- dictator or human right's abuser in the top ten that based thier oppression on religion. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot…they fit the classic term “dictator” and while religion was a tool used, to some extent, it was an excuse and root cause.
Nero, some of the early misguided Popes, the various Khanates….again, religion was a tool, but it is still about personal power and expansion, not outright hate against a specific religion.
The Crusades, especially the “successful” early ones quickly moved into stable, profitable periods of peace. Even when hostilities resumed it was less about the religion of the opposing faction and more about real estate held. Christians even approached the Muslim Mongols in looking for assistance against the turks and egyptians.
The closest I can think of a true historical religious based “dictator” would be Frediand II of Spain and the Spanish Inquisition, and that greatly outlived him. There could be many hours of scholarly debate on whether that was a case of the cart quickly passing it's horse.
To place W. in the pantheon of these individuals is at best disingenuous and at worst blind delusion. Obama has also talked to “god” in his life, yet I don't see you bringing that up. As has Clinton, Washington, both Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, Kennedy, Polk, Van Buren, Jackson, etc., etc.
History is blind. Events happend. Period, end of sentence. It is only in the analysis of those events do they begin to be colored by religious or idelogical beliefs. Whether America was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs or not is less important than the discussion of would America have been founded -without- Judeo-Christian beliefs.
What if the Pilgrims weren't Puritans but were Muslim Iberians fleeing Spain? What if Washington and Jefferson weren't former English citizens but were North African Berbers with the same beliefs? Was the form of religion of the founding fathers key or was it enough for them to recognize that religion has a place and a role within a nation and its peoples but that religion should consume the role and purpose of it's government?
6 July 2009
at 2:40 p.m.
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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…
Let's do whatever extremist progressives tell us to do. They're cutting-edge. Extremists like Biden ok'd the Jews in Israel to bomb Iran. So. Independence day in this country is going well for extremist progressive stimulus Biden, and his ok for the Jews in Israel.
6 July 2009
at 2:44 p.m.
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jimmyjms (Anonymous) says…
“Let's do whatever extremist progressives tell us to do.”
That's no worse advice than suggesting that we do whatever extremist fundamentalists do.
6 July 2009
at 3:57 p.m.
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jimmyjms (Anonymous) says…
“Whether America was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs or not is less important than the discussion of would America have been founded -without- Judeo-Christian beliefs”
Whoa. Incorrect on all counts.
6 July 2009
at 4:11 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
jimmyjims…
I think I see what tolawdjk was getting at: Judeo-Christian beliefs motivated the early settlers to come to America, to seek it out.
Columbus came to the “New World” for several reasons—but “The Church” was a big player in that, as far as spreading the Gospel, “make disciples of all nations,” convert the indigenous people to Catholicism.
Early American settlers may not have been motivated to proselytize so much… but they sailed across the Atlantic to escape persecution.
is that what you were getting at, tolawdjk?
6 July 2009
at 4:24 p.m.
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kmat (Anonymous) says…
tolawdjk (Anonymous) says…
@ beobatcher:
I am continually amazed by the ability for “conservatives” to ignore science and “liberals” to ignore history when it suits their purposes
___________________________________
You need to go take some history courses.
The Nazi platform explicitly endorsed and promoted Christianity. The Nazi's considered Hitler a gift from God. Millions of Christians in Germany not only enthusiastically supported and endorsed Hitler and the Nazis, but did so on the basis of common Christian beliefs and attitudes.
You really know nothing of the Crusades or their purpose. By the 10th century, muslims had conquered half the Christian world. In the 11th century, crusaders headed to Jerusalem, not only to take it back but to also kill as many non-Christians as possible (Jews, Muslims and pagans). There are reports of the streets of Jerusalem running with rivers of blood. One of their slogans was “embrace the cross or die”. 12K Jews alone were killed just in the Rhine Valley. Jews refer to the Crusades as the first holocaust. Some Christian groups actually do reconciliation walks to try to apologize to all involved and retrace the steps of the Crusaders.
Gawd, that's just a start. Your comments are really inaccurate. Go take a few courses on history and get back to me. One of the best I took was history of the middle ages and I wrote a thesis paper on the Crusades. There's a lot to the Crusades that you have no clue about.
6 July 2009
at 4:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
All our celebrations should last but a day. Here's the music…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVaqXG…
And for all those memoria…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF563X…
6 July 2009
at 4:47 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
I am grateful to have the freedom to worship as I choose, and to be free from government oppression and persecution in deciding whether I practice a religion and what i practice.
Although after reading the comments on this blog it appears many enjoy persecuting theists, and seem to prefer if religion wasn't allowed in America, as if that were the correct definition of “separation of church and state.” Luckily they are just the basement dwellers who don't have any control over my freedoms.
6 July 2009
at 4:56 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Aw, Satirical, you know we only persecute you because we know you want it.
6 July 2009
at 7:28 p.m.
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dandelion (Anonymous) says…
“Columbus came to the “New World” for several reasons—but “The Church” was a big player in that, as far as spreading the Gospel, “make disciples of all nations,” convert the indigenous people to Catholicism.”
Columbus wasn't looking for a new world. He spent his time trying to get around the new world. He wanted a trade route to the far east. He died a failure. The Spanish who immediately followed him were looking for gold, and priests looking to convert the natives, but Columbus just wanted to make himself and the king and queen of Spain filthy rich.
6 July 2009
at 7:59 p.m.
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jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…
Lord, what a dumb and divisive question to ask. Of course you should celebrate it, if you are religious and you want to do so.
6 July 2009
at 8 p.m.
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jumpin_catfish (Anonymous) says…
None of us are very free anymore, we're just conditioned by the government and society to think we're free. Stop and think what it would mean to be truly free. Most people aren't brave enough to live free in this world.
6 July 2009
at 8:02 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
TRA…
Surprisingly, your comment was pretty funny.
6 July 2009
at 8:07 p.m.
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jumpin_catfish (Anonymous) says…
Freedom: the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence c: the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous.
See, none of us are free.
6 July 2009
at 8:42 p.m.
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FreshAirFanatic (Anonymous) says…
For all those who think Bush was the religious fanatic…
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/….
6 July 2009
at 9:03 p.m.
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ibroke (Anonymous) says…
yes I celebrate freedom of religion praise the LORD
6 July 2009
at 9:04 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
“the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous.”
I am exempt from ignorant statements because I have knowledge, and therefore I am free.
6 July 2009
at 10:56 p.m.
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tolawdjk (Anonymous) says…
@kmat:
If your Crusade knowledge is so high and mighty, it should be easy for you to name the “dictator” your original statement said existed. Should be easy to pin in it on one political/national leader who commanded all to carry their actions out as a part of his will and to further his ambitions.
I mean, if the Crusades were a result of a dictator it should be pretty simple.
As to the Nazi's and thier support of Christianity. They supported Christianity in as far is it furthered thier goals. It was a tool and not a purpose. Hitler's vision of an expanded German called for aquisition of land and property. Valuable land and property within Germany itself that was held by the Jews…conviently the group of people he felt directly responsable for his failings in life and the plight of Germany at the time. He used Christianity and the German people's historic views of those people as a weapon to gain what he desired.
But hey, you are right, I'm wrong. *golfclap*
6 July 2009
at 11:27 p.m.
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chzypoof1 (Anonymous) says…
FreshAir - You will NEVER get any responses on that article. The true CZAR of our times can do no wrong. GW probably made him do it somehow :)
IMO…the pastor is a little off here, but he is right that our founding fathers based a lot of their decisions on moral Christian values. BUT…they also said that although they believed in those things, they leave it open to the people to decide what/who they want to worship.
I am happy to live in a country that I am free to worship who I want to worship…whenever I want.
God Bless the USA