Archive for Friday, January 9, 2009

U.N. calls for immediate cease-fire in Gaza

January 9, 2009

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— The U.N. Security Council called for an “immediate” and “durable” cease-fire in Gaza in a resolution Thursday night even as fighting between Israel and Hamas raged — with early morning airstrikes killing seven Palestinians and pushing the death toll to about 760 in the near two-week conflict.

U.N. action came hours after the world body suspended food deliveries to Gaza and the Red Cross accused Israel of blocking medical assistance after forces fired on aid workers. It also followed concerns of a wider conflict which flared as militants in Lebanon fired rockets into northern Israel.

The vote was 14-0, with the United States abstaining. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the U.S. “fully supports” the resolution but abstained “to see the outcomes of the Egyptian mediation” with Israel and Hamas, also aimed at achieving a cease-fire.

Comments

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"The vote was 14-0, with the United States abstaining. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the U.S. “fully supports” the resolution but abstained “to see the outcomes of the Egyptian mediation” with Israel and Hamas, also aimed at achieving a cease-fire."That's absolutely idiotic. If you support it, vote for it. How hard can it be?

Flap Doodle 6 years, 7 months ago

Hamas needs a break to build more rockets.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Hamas needs a break to build more rockets."It would appear that there is some justification (by mideast standards) for doing so, because if there is a cease-fire, history shows that it will be Israel who breaks it, again, just as it was Israel who broke the latest ceasefire.“A recent statistical analysis by three academics (one at MIT, one at Harvard and one from Tel Aviv University) found that an overwhelming majority of lulls in violence since 2000 (when the second intifada began) ended when Israelis killed Palestinians, sparking renewed tit-for-tat violence. According to Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer and Anat Biletzki, “79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks.” The pattern was “more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. … Of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%.””

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

But why did Israel break the latest ceasefire, knowing it could provoke missile attacks on its own people? Could it be because they have elections coming up next month, and the hardline warmongers think it will help with voters if they scare the sh*t out of them?

Flap Doodle 6 years, 7 months ago

Translation for bozoese: "blame the juice!"

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo....So are you saying that Israel started the current conflict by firing rockets at Hamas and innocent Palestinian civilians, or was it the other way around?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

Translation for snapese-- I don't anything but stupid things to say, so I'll just say something stupid.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"So are you saying that Israel started the current conflict by firing rockets at Hamas and innocent Palestinian civilians, or was it the other way around?"No, there were two attacks prior to Hamas's firing of rockets into Israel-- one was a bombing raid, and another by ground forces, in November, killing a total of 10 Palestinians.And prior to that, they violated one of the main terms of the ceasefire, namely, easing the blockade of Gaza, which they failed to do.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

I'm not as utterly simplistic as you, Tom. I'm fully capable of condemning both Hamas and Israel for their murderous activities. Why do you like dead Palestinian babies so much? Do you have a collection of their pictures on your computer?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

" The UN should understand by now, after failed cease-fire on top of failed cease-fire, that terrorists do not follow cease-fires or play by the rules,"Given that it's Israel who almost always breaks the cease-fires, are you labeling Israel a terrorist state?

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Bozo….“one was a bombing raid, and another by ground forces, in November, killing a total of 10 Palestinians.” “easing the blockade of Gaza, which they failed to do.” – bozoI would appreciate if you would provide some evidence of your claim. Also, if you think not easing a blockade is sufficient justification to fire rockets at civilians, then I am sure you fully support the U.S. invasion of Iraq due to their violation of several U.N. resolutions (not implying the U.S. targeted civilians).

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Logicsound04….You seem to enjoy playing the race card as often as possible against your opponents; but we all see your tactic for exactly what it is, a red herring.S/he didn’t say ALL Arabs are murderers and liars. S/he was referring to the Arabs who are murderers. It is called an adjective.Adjectiven. (Abbr. a. or adj.) 1. The part of speech that modifies a noun or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying and distinguished in English morphologically by one of several suffixes, such as -able, -ous, -er, and -est, or syntactically by position directly preceding a noun or nominal phrase. http://www.answers.com/topic/adjective

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"I would appreciate if you would provide some evidence of your claim."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestiniansThere was another Israeli raid on Nov. 17-- you can google that yourself, if you wish to know more." Also, if you think not easing a blockade is sufficient justification to fire rockets at civilians,"I don't think Hamas has any justification for firing rockets at anyone. It was criminal and counterproductive, as the civilians in Israel deserve security just as much as the Palestinians do. But it was certainly very apparent to Israel that launching an assault on Hamas would provoke missile attacks. Which begs the question, what was their motive for very clearly putting their citizens at risk, knowing full well what the likely response would be?

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Bozo…First, let’s assume for arguments sake Israel did break the cease-fire (although without reading the exact cease-fire I am not convinced this was done based on a BBC report)Second, if the U.S. had actionable intelligence that a raid was going to take place against Hawaii, do you think they should act on this or wait for it to occur (assuming of course the raid would be perpetrated by a group with the historical aggressiveness of Hamas). Because based on the report this is exactly what Israel was doing.Third, Israel was targeting Hamas militants not innocent civilians in this raid to protect themselves. Attacking militants in a pre-emptive strike does not justify Hamas targeting civilians.Fourth, if this and the raid on Nov. 17th is what provoked Hamas to retaliate, why did it wait so long to do so?Fifth, Israel has a right to defend itself from these type of rocket attacks even if they did break the cease-fire.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Correction: “(I am not convinced this was done based on a guardian report from the UK)”

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Logicsound04....If you think most of my comments are objective then you need to have your eyes checked, because I have stated dozens of times I usually make arguments for one side or another. However, my comment to you regarding your twisting of Pelosi_Boy's words was objective. Simply because you seek to demonize everyone who opposes your way of thinking (which is a tactic normally used when you can't refute their arguments), doesn't mean I do the same when I am making one-sided arguments.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"I would appreciate if you would provide some evidence of your claim."Apparently not. If you don't like the Guardian link, find another one-- and just because your favorite sources refused to report it to you doesn't mean it didn't happen.You ignored this the other times it's been posted. See if you can let it sink in just a little.“A recent statistical analysis by three academics (one at MIT, one at Harvard and one from Tel Aviv University) found that an overwhelming majority of lulls in violence since 2000 (when the second intifada began) ended when Israelis killed Palestinians, sparking renewed tit-for-tat violence. According to Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer and Anat Biletzki, “79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks.” The pattern was “more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. … Of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%.””

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Fifth, Israel has a right to defend itself from these type of rocket attacks even if they did break the cease-fire."So if I smash you in the face, and you hit me back, am I then justified in breaking all your arms and legs?

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

However, it would be a logical fallacy to conclude just because my arguments aren't objective (I usually advocate for one side) necessarily means my conclusions are wrong.An objective argument will present both sides, but an objective person will normally still decide which argument is stronger. I don't normally make objective arguments (again, because I advocate for one side), but I am normally an objective person because I can always be persuaded by stronger arguments. However, some people seem to consistently defend the weaker arguments and I enjoy refuting those arguments.Logicsound04....If you want me to take advocate for a different side occasionally I would be happy to do so, just to show you I usually understand both arguments.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"However, some people seem to consistently defend the weaker arguments and I enjoy refuting those arguments."And yet, your arguments here have been very weak.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Bozo…Please cite your research so I know you didn’t cherry pick what you are posting. These statistics don’t prove Israel is the aggressor, only that they killed Palestinians. If someone were coming at me with a knife and I had a gun I would probably use it. Israel is better armed than the Palestinians so it is more likely a Palestinian will be the first to die even if the Palestinian instigates the fight. How does the research define a “Palestinian attack”? I have more faith in knowing the actual circumstances not just believing blindly in some numbers, since every educated person knows how statistics can be manipulated.----------------“So if I smash you in the face, and you hit me back, am I then justified in breaking all your arms and legs?” – bozoYou might depending on the exact circumstances. But your analogy is specious. If you and I were countries, and you lobbed rockets at the civilians of my country I wouldn’t feel completely justified in defending my citizens. Just like if police from Lawrence captured drug smugglers on the Mexican border, then Mexico fired rockets into your neighborhood, I would want our military to respond.Do, I need to re-post the 3 options Israel has?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Do, I need to re-post the 3 options Israel has?"No, because the premise of these "options" and all of your arguments is that Israel can do no wrong, and Hamas can do no right. As long as US policy is based on such a double standard, the violence will continue, and Palestinians will continue to die at 100 times the rate of Israelis.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo..."And yet, your arguments here have been very weak"Rather than labeling my arguments how about you prove my arguments are weak. Seems like you are unable to do the latter so you use the weak tactic of labeling.---------------“premise of these “options” and all of your arguments is that Israel can do no wrong, and Hamas can do no right” – bozoThat was not my premise at all. Israel can fight, negotiate or do-nothing. How are those based on Israel being unable to do wrong and Hamas being unable to do right? However, I will state clearly I believe it is not right when Hamas targets civilians, and if there is any evidence Israel targets civilians (not just that they die) then they would be just as wrong.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Israel can fight, negotiate or do-nothing. How are those based on Israel being unable to do wrong and Hamas being unable to do right?"Clearly, the only choice they have made is the first one, and you see nothing wrong with that-- in other words, Israel can do no wrong, while when Hamas makes the same choice, they are evil-doers."if there is any evidence Israel targets civilians (not just that they die) "There have now been at least 200 civilians killed in the last two weeks (in retaliation for fewer than 10 Israelis killed in rocket attacks that happened after Israel broke the ceasefire.) If you think the deaths of that many Palestinian civilians is an "accident," then I think we're right back to your core belief-- Israel can do no wrong.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Logicsound04….First: When I have claimed in the past I know when I am biased, this means I realize when I am advocating for just one side. It means I realize there is a different argument to be made. Some people are ignorant and claim the other side doesn’t have any arguments and demonizes them. They wouldn’t be able to argue the opposing side if they tried, making it apparent they are biased, since an objective person could argue both sides. I recognize there are always opposing arguments, I acknowledge them then refute them. Even though at times some arguments are clearly ridiculous, others have merit. I am sorry if you assumed any more than this from my statements. Perhaps if you could show you can argue both sides and didn’t claim the other side had no viable argument (not that you simply disagree with the argument or think your arguments are strong), then I would consider you a more objective person.Second: You did twist the words and interpreted them out of context. If the phrase was only “murderous Arabs” and nothing more, then you would have a legitimate argument since this would be using an adjective to describe the entire group. However you example doesn’t apply to the facts since this was not the entire context of the comment.Lastly: I was not meaning to suggest you were demonizing me, but when you call someone a racist which is a serious charge you should have better evidence. Since you based your conclusion on such weak evidence it is clear your motive was not defending Arabs from racist, but to discredit the author of the comment and therefore every argument he made.

gl0ck0wn3r 6 years, 7 months ago

Does anyone really care about the UN? When was the last time the UN really mattered?

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Bozo….“Clearly, the only choice they have made is the first one”Clearly you are wrong since Israel has negotiated with the Palestinians numerous times in the past and given them land to live on and no longer occupies the region. Israel has also done nothing, as is the case when Lebanese militants fired rockets into Israel the other day. However the latter wouldn’t have been a viable option of it was not an isolated incident, and supported by Hezbollah. You are correct that I see nothing wrong with Israel defending its citizens against rocket attacks from Hamas. But as I have previously stated, Israel can do wrong if they target civilians, etc. And Hamas can do right if they recognize the right of Israel to exist, don't target civilians, and try to live in peace with their neigbors. -----------------“If you think the deaths of that many Palestinian civilians is an “accident,” then I think we're right back to your core belief— Israel can do no wrong.” - bozoThe difference is Israel is not targeting the civilians. In urban warfare civilians deaths are very likely, and even more likely when Hamas uses school children and innocent civilians as sandbags and shields. This is the difference between you and I. You see the numbers and automatically assume Israel is doing something wrong or else the numbers wouldn’t be so high, without looking at the details. This is exactly what Hamas knows people will think which is why they continue to use children as shields, it works on fools. On the other hand, I see the numbers and think it is a tragedy, but when I investigate I see these deaths are either (1) accidents (2) unavoidable, or (3) caused by Hamas using them as sandbags hoping they will die so fools will have sympathy for them and hate Israel. If you are upset at the death of Palestinian civilian then blame the true culprit, Hamas.Given the firepower of Israel, if they really didn’t care about civilian deaths the toll would be much higher. In fact they wouldn’t even have to invade they could just fire-bomb the whole region.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

BOZO:"But why did Israel break the latest ceasefire, knowing it could provoke missile attacks on its own people?"Ummm, it could be the 10,000 rocket launches into Israel by Hamas from Gaza since 2005. That is what broke the "cease fire". "Cease-Fire" includes Hamas launching rockets. Now with that little piece of information it was Hamas the "never complied with the cease-fire" so how can you say Israel broke it?Secondly, remember for the umpteenth time, Israel evicted Israelis from Gaza in 2005 anbd gave it all to Palestine, and there were no walls at that time. From the time Israel gave back the Gaza Strip, Hamas and Palestinians started the bus and resturaunt bombings killing many more Israelis than Sucicide bombers. That is when the walls went up, and hurt the Palestinian economy, but that is the fault of Hamas and the Sucicide bombers, not Israel for protecting themselves.Then whe the walls were up, Hamas and Palestinians started the "rocket launching' because they were prevented from killing Jews by resturaunt bombing and bus bombing by the wall construction. Now to stop the rockets Israel is protecting themselves, and the Hamas trick is to launch missles and rockets from schools and hospitals and hide within the civilian population.For all or you that think Israel is the "demon" of "the problem" here you are sadly misguided. They have tried, and Hamas is not satisfied with anything Israel does.There is "no peace" with Hamas, Fatah, or Hezbollah.Simple as that.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

Thanks for proving my point-- you believe Israel can do know wrong-- all Palestinian civilian deaths are the doings of those evil Hamas evil-doers, even though the 2000 lbs. bombs dropped on apartments, or tank shells shot into a school being used as a shelter run by the UN, came from the Israelis.As long as US policy is based on such insanity, both Israelis and Palestinians will continue to die.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Ummm, it could be the 10,000 rocket launches into Israel by Hamas from Gaza since 2005.That is what broke the “cease fire”. “Cease-Fire” includes Hamas launching rockets."Gawd, do you have a brain in there anywhere? If attacks that happened before the ceasefire are the justification for breaking the ceasefire, what's the point of having a ceasefire at all?

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"....bombs dropped on apartments, or tank shells shot into a school being used as a shelter run by the UN, came from the Israelis."That show you are a "die hard" Hamas supporter. The UN is a bunch of terrorist enablers. And The issue of the "Shelter being run by the UN, is at the same time being used to store rockets under the UN's nose? I don't know what to say, and YES Israel is blameless, the civilian deaths were not "targeted", and the Civilians within Israel were "targeted".Israel has tried, and Hamas is a deadly spoiled little brat throwing a tantrum with short range missles. Is will soon be a nuke and Israel will be gone and the world wide slaughter of arabs will then start.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

Your ability to manufacture your own reality is remarkable, asby.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo…“Thanks for proving my point— you believe Israel can do know wrong—“Are you blind or just daft? I have stated numerous times that Israel can do wrong. You have not proved Israel has done wrong simply by citing numbers. You ignore so many facts it is ridiculous. However, I have taken all your facts on face value. When will you learn to argue because pretending stuff isn’t there just because you don’t like the truth is getting old?It seems you believe Hamas can do no wrong. And if you say otherwise maybe I will just keep repeating myself like you do. I have accepted all your facts, once you can accept these facts we can continue to have a conversation:(1) Israel has a right to defend itself from rocket attacks targeting its civilians.(2) Hamas uses innocent civilians as “sandbags” and “human shields”(3) Israel may or may not be targeting civilians and number don’t prove anything, so I will have to look at the circumstances

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"(1) Israel has a right to defend itself from rocket attacks targeting its civilians."I can accept that fact, but there has to be some limit to what is considered "defensive." Crowding 1 1/2 million people into a very narrow strip of land, and laying siege to them for decades on end doesn't really classify as "defensive," does it? Neither does dropping 2000 lbs bombs on apartment complexes you know are filled with women and children, or firing tank rounds into school houses filled with civilians."(2) Hamas uses innocent civilians as “sandbags” and “human shields”"No doubt their concern for the civilian population around them is low, and that complicates matters for anyone wishing to attack them. But given that Gazans are for all intents and purposes imprisoned there, and the population density is one of the highest in the entire world (more than twice that of Israel,) there is no other logical conclusion than that Israel's heavy-handed tactics, which inflict a considerably higher civilian death toll on Palestinians than vice-versa, are designed specifically as mass punishment. If it's despicable for Hamas to target civilians, then it's equally despicable for Israel to do so."(3) Israel may or may not be targeting civilians and number don’t prove anything, so I will have to look at the circumstances"If the numbers were relatively small and the incidents infrequent, I could accept that as a "fact." But Palestinian civilians die in too great numbers (much greater than the Israeli civilian death toll) for it to just be "accidental."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

Maybe you should train them in your wide-stance approach.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"If the numbers were relatively small and the incidents infrequent, I could accept that as a “fact.” But Palestinian civilians die in too great numbers (much greater than the Israeli civilian death toll) for it to just be “accidental.”"BS, pure BS. The resturaunt bombings and the bus bombings were killing 14 to 40 Israelis per "sucicide bomber". Ant that happened about 200 times before the "walls went up". Not manufactured facts, but actually documented incidents. So that is anywhere between 2800 to 8000 Israelis killed in the 2nd Intafida (the current intiafada), and you add the addition of all the Israelis killed and maimed with the 10,000 plus rockets and motars that have rained down from the Gaza.Additionally with the "packing of 1-1.5 million Palestinians within Gaza was a tactic as well. Why are they not having them go to other Arab countires? Why is Israel supposed to cede land to the Palestinan "brothers" of the arabs that will not allow them into the arab countries?Bozo you are the blind and biased, almost as bad as the Un Security Council 14 members supporting terrorists and Hamas apologists.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo...I would continue our discussion and your arguments regarding facts (1) and (2), however since you have refused to accept (3) because you only want to rely on numbers, and your assumptions and prejudices, while ignoring the specific factual contexts of the deaths, it appears our conversation is over.

HW 6 years, 7 months ago

The "population density" argument always made me wonder. So, I just did some quick seraching. I found that Gaza has a population density of 3800-4300/sqkm, depending on were you get your info. Tel-Aviv has a population density of 5000-7500 sqkm. In fact, Gaza's population density is no where near the top when you start looking at all the other countries in Asia. There are cities in the USA that have higher population densities (e.g. New York ~9000). So, the population density argument seems to be a little week.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"I would continue our discussion and your arguments regarding facts (1) and (2), however since you have refused to accept (3) because you only want to rely on numbers,"What do you offer as an alternative then? Israel's statements? "Oh, so sorry that more than 200 civilians have died in the last two weeks. We really didn't mean it."I'm not that gullible.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"In fact, Gaza's population density is no where near the top when you start looking at all the other countries in Asia."Sure, you can find areas that have greater population density, but those are all small islands and/or very major urban centers.Gaza has greater population density than the city of Lawrence. If Douglas County had the same population density as Gaza, it would have nearly 5 million inhabitants-- nearly the combined population of Kansas and Nebraska in our one little county.And keep in mind that Gaza is in a desert, so much of the territory is nearly uninhabitable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Why is Israel supposed to cede land to the Palestinan “brothers” of the arabs that will not allow them into the arab countries?"Maybe you should cede them your backyard, Asby.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo...."What do you offer as an alternative then?"As an alternative I suggest you ignore look at all the information, not just in the initial reports. One difference between you and I is assumptions of why the deaths occur based on our understanding of history. I don't see Israel as having a history of trying to kill all its neighbors even though it has the military capacity to do so. I see Israel as using their military to protect itself, not impose its will on others. The other difference is that even if the initial reports seem to imply Israel targeted civilians I will look for follow-up to understand the circumstances and not make hasty assumptions. As an example the children that died near the school. Did you just assume Israel didn't care about whether it killed school children once you read the initial report or did you investigate further? I use these same assumption when hearing about civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan becaue I have personal relationship with many people in the U.S. military and know they wouldn't follow an order to kill civilians.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Editing mistake....Correction: "I suggest you (don't) ignore (facts) and look at all the information, not just the initial reports."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"I don't see Israel as having a history of trying to kill all its neighbors even though it has the military capacity to do so. I see Israel as using their military to protect itself, not impose its will on others."Is that why when Hisbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, Israel responded by invading Lebanon, destroying $billion of its infrastructure, killing more than 1000 people, almost all of them civilians, and then while the finishing touches were being put on the ceasefire, they dropped more than 1 million cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon, almost all of them in civilian areas?"The other difference is that even if the initial reports seem to imply Israel targeted civilians I will look for follow-up to understand the circumstances and not make hasty assumptions."I just recounted what they did in Lebanon-- is it too hasty to make assumptions? "Did you just assume Israel didn't care about whether it killed school children once you read the initial report or did you investigate further?"I don't think all of the civilian deaths come from direct targeting, although some of them clearly do. I think most of them happen because they are generally unconcerned whether civilians are killed. That's just what happens when you send people in with killing machines. Israel knows this as well as any other military force in the world. The decision to send them in comes with the full knowledge that civilians will die, and in this particular invasion, and the one in Lebanon in 2006, I think it was a major policy goal to punish the civilian population.

Sigmund 6 years, 7 months ago

Both sides had better take the strongly worded UN letter seriously or the UN will be forced to send a even more strongly worded letter.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Logicsound04…I guess you can jump in...but if you start getting confused because you don’t understand bozo and my entire discussion then I will just end our debate.(1) You dodged the question. Whether Israel is currently defending itself doesn’t bear on whether it has the right.(2) You dodged the question. Even if Israel bears all the responsibility doesn’t change the facts.(3) You contradict the statement and therefore denied this fact. You, just like bozo, make assumption without looking at specifics other than the target destroyed and the weapon Israel used (“they are making no effort to avoid hitting these civilians” – LS04). Whether Israel violated the cease-fire first isn’t relevant to this point.If you want to make new arguments state so. If you want to deny these facts then state so.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Bozo….“Israel responded by invading Lebanon, destroying $billion of its infrastructure, killing more than 1000 people, almost all of them civilians”There you go again. Israel had the same 3 choices then as it did now. (1) Do nothing, (2) negotiate, or (3) defend itself. You clearly make the assumption that because civilian deaths were involved that Israel was “trying to kill all its neighbors” (Satirical). You assume Israel was just looking for an excuse to terminate its neighbors. Again, as I have stated several times, and which you have not responded to; if Israeli goal is to the destruction of its neighboring countries, why doesn’t Israel just wipe them totally out when a conflict arises since it clearly has the capabilities of doing so? Since they don’t it is clear they don’t have this intent. If they don’t have the intent then the deaths can be explained for other reasons. You again ignore the situation in Lebanon that strongly contributed to these numbers which Israel had no control over, specifically Hisbollah like Hamas using humans and civilians structures as shields and launching pads for attacks. ----------------“they dropped more than 1 million cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon, almost all of them in civilian areas?” – bozoMaybe that is because that is where the enemy was firing from? Oh wait, I forget it is better to ignore this fact and assume Israel is just looking for a reason to kill civilians.--------------“The decision to send them in comes with the full knowledge that civilians will die, and in this particular invasion, and the one in Lebanon in 2006, I think it was a major policy goal to punish the civilian population.”As you admit civilian deaths are unfortunately going to happen when you send in troops. However, you ignore the alternative which would cause even more deaths which is to just fire bomb the whole area. What possible reason would Israel have for not doing this…..? Maybe it is because they do care! You again have not stated why Israel would have a goal to punish a civilian population.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Signmund….“Both sides had better take the strongly worded UN letter seriously or the UN will be forced to send a even more strongly worded letter.”Haven’t you heard, exclamation points can kill! Whoops, hope that one didn't hurt you.

HW 6 years, 7 months ago

Logic - "That also ranks them 6th in the world, behind:Macau (PRC)MonacoHong Kong (PRC)SingaporeGibraltar (UK)"According to Citymayor.com, Gaza would rank a little lower than number 50. "Furthermore, comparing the pop. density of an entire country to the pop. density of a city is absurd, not to mention the fact that a bombing strke on NYC or Tel Aviv (which you cited as being more dense) would result in a devastating level of casualties.So, what is your point?"Maybe it has to do with my ignorance of the area. I thought Gaza referred to the city and Gaza Strip referred to the country. That is also how Wikipedia has it listed, but I think we all know how reliable Wikipedia can be sometimes. My point, though I didn't say it straight out, is that some folks compare the population density of Gaza to the population density of Israel, which is actually comparing a city to a country, from my definition above. So, actuall, we are trying to make the same point.I understand how devastating the bombing would be on that high of a population density. That wasn't what I was concerned with in that post. I was pointing out that numbers get thrown around that don't make much sense, so I was trying to make sense of the numbers and see if they were or weren't valid.Bozo -Lawrence has is approximately 74 sqkm. So, at the same population density as Gaza, the high end, lawrence would have a population of about 320,000.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"Is that why when Hisbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, Israel responded by invading Lebanon, destroying $billion of its infrastructure, killing more than 1000 people, almost all of them civilians, and then while the finishing touches were being put on the ceasefire, they dropped more than 1 million cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon, almost all of them in civilian areas?"Israel went into Lebannon because of ....Rockets being launched from inside civilian areas and within schools and hospitals by Hezbollah.Tens of thousands of rockets coming into the northern part of Israel from Hezbollah within Lebannon. Israel bombed them and that stopped Hezbollah. Israel got a black eye and did not carry off that very well, and in fact had higher civilian casualties inside of Lebannon than is Gaza and they did not get to their full objective. You really need to stop reading the MediaMatters, DailyKos, and Huffington Post. Lay off Al Aribia as well, they are nothing but propaganda that laudes Hamas and decries Israel.But then the rockets stopped coming from Lebannon, and when a few were popped off in Israel's direction a swift response followed.Nuff said. Stop launching rockets into Israel and death will not foll bact to launch point.Pretty simple. And they already gave the land back

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Logicsound04….My mistake. I thought your statements were identifying the topic not agreeing with the fact since it did not include phrases you later used, such as “I concede.” However, while you affirm (3) in part you contradicted it in part.No “advance notice” is required, but you oddly jumped into the middle of a conversation, and give what appeared to be counterarguments when all I was asking for was agreement on facts so the conversation could then move forward (with bozo). Rather than use a discussion with someone else you should have just stated you arguments to avoid this confusion. You want to discount my facts, when they were not intended for you in the first place. You may agree with these statements but it is obvious these are areas bozo just doesn’t understand. So again, maybe you should have started a separate discussion with me rather than trying to graft your arguments onto a discussion I was having with him.---------------------------“Both sides are in the wrong here” – LS04I do not claim Israel has done no wrong, but the only justification provided that Israel has done wrong is by referencing the number of civilian deaths, and the weapons used. I counter this is faulty logic and by stating critical facts are ignored to reach the conclusion. -----------------------“The fact that Israel may not be intentionally targeting civilians doesn't mean that they are taking the appropriate action to minimize civilian casualties.” – LS04Again, I agree with this statement, what I disagree with is the fact used to reach the conclusion that Israel isn’t taking appropriate actions to minimize civilian casualties. You can’t just look at the number of deaths, the weapons used and the targets destroyed.------------------“Actions, that if adjusted, could help bring the conflict to a more manageable place.” – LS04This is exactly why groups like Hamas won’t go away anytime soon, because they realize fools will just look at the facts and the disparity of civilian deaths and conclude Israel is just as (if not more) culpable and should therefore give into Hamas’ demands. You seem to forget this conflict started prior to Israel using tactics that allegedly didn’t minimize civilian deaths. If your statement is true, then if Israel did nothing at all the rocket attacks would have stopped.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Max1….One uses different tactics for different situations. During WWII the U.S. fire bombed cities in Japan and Germany. The situation in Iraq would be more analogous to if someone invaded Long Island and launched rockets from there to Manhattan. The U.S. would send in troops and be much more willing to sacrifice troops to save its own citizens than using heavy firepower. However, there would clearly be some civilian deaths from friendly fire. But the difference between Iraq, the hypothetical Long Island takeover, opposed to WWII and the Israeli and Hamas conflict is the people aren’t your own citizens or your allies, so you aren’t going to take as many risks or sacrifice as many of your soldiers. This would be playing right into Hamas hands if Israel was forced to do this. I am of course not stating Israel doesn’t or shouldn’t care about Palestinian civilians, but I don’t think any country has the right to tell them how many of their own troops they must sacrifice because Hamas chooses to use their own countrymen as shields. Israel should be required to be careful, but not kamikaze.

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Max1…Also, you are twisting my words and using a strawman argument since I never said in that situation “I would want our military to respond (the exact same way Israel is responding to Hamas)” Please avoid assumptions since yours are usually wrong.

guesswho 6 years, 7 months ago

Why can't most people admit neither side is without blame here. What isn't talked about much is the amount of foreign aid that Israel and Egypt gets (1/3 of all US aid). [Egypt because they signed the peace accords years ago.]In 2005 Israel received 2.58 billion dollars. Welfare, anyone?Or now will I be called anti-Semite?

Satirical 6 years, 7 months ago

Max1…And the people who don’t know how to make their own arguments without faulty assumptions and act like children when confronted about it sing: “blah blahblah blah blahblahblahblahblah blah blahblah blah blahblahblahblahblah blaaaaaaaaaaaaaa”

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"There you go again. Israel had the same 3 choices then as it did now. (1) Do nothing, (2) negotiate, or (3) defend itself."I assume you are saying Israel chose to "defend itself." I don't buy it. I contend that they while they may have gone in after Hezbollah, the results of the invasion clearly show that they also went in to punish the entire population of Lebanon, at which they were wildly successful. Just because they could have been more destructive than they were does not mean that they were driven by some sort of humanitarian restraint. I think the only restraint they ever show is when they know they're in danger of acting so heinously that even folks like you would recoil, thus jeopardizing the $3 billion in US military aid they get every year.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

"Lawrence has is approximately 74 sqkm. So, at the same population density as Gaza, the high end, lawrence would have a population of about 320,000."Lawrence has a population of 90,000. So that means that Gaza is 3 1/2 times more densely populated than this urban environment, and that's the entire territory, olive groves and all. The cities, such as Gaza City, are considerably more densely populated.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"Just because they could have been more destructive than they were does not mean that they were driven by some sort of humanitarian restraint."Ah, now Bozo is a mind reader! How are you making that blind lead? The converse is equally true in the unqualified context that you deliverd this babbling diatribe.Israel has in the past leveled the villages and buldozed the structures. Remember 200-2003 where they did just that to Palestinians? But then in 2005 they applied that same type of tactic "on fellow Israelis" to comply and give bacek the Gaza Strip. You seem to constantly forget that the land was willingly given back by Israel and for thanks Hamas and every terrorist wants to lob rockets into Israel.Israel constantly gets pillaried at the U.N. (Union of Numbskulls) for portecting themselves, yet 888not a peep out of the U. N. when there are Israelis killed by sucicide bombers or killed by rockets, NOT A PEEP.""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I contend that they while they may have gone in after Hezbollah, the results of the invasion clearly show that they also went in to punish the entire population of Lebanon, at which they were wildly successful."ANd with that comment you show that you unflinchingly back and support Hezbollah and Hamas, and villify Israel at every chance you get. You are a "mind reader" on this as well.That is a psycological effect know as "projection" where you porject your values and beliefs on situations where you have no other connection.It is a mental thing with you. IN most of the "debates" against your position no one states "what they believe" in terms of "mind reading" as you do.It is very simple for Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine:*stop launching rockets and stop using sucicide bombers*.Then the walls come down, and the economy gets better and everyone lives in peace.Lob Rockewts, and Israel will retaliate, and are justified after they gave the land back to these ungrateful louts.I am buying you a clue Bozo, the actually sell them on the internet!

Corey Williams 6 years, 7 months ago

Then get yourself a spellchecker/grammar checker as well.

Sigmund 6 years, 7 months ago

Now they have gone and done it, both sides have rejected the UN requested cease fire. The UN will have no choice but issue an even more strongly worded letter!If neither party wants a cease fire what can you do? This conflict needs a clear winner (and loser) and both sides know it. President elect Obama has signaled the new administration will meet with Hamas so it wants to hang in there till that can happen. For its part Israel has time to kill as many Hamas and destroy as much of its assets as possible. So let the carnage continue.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"mancityfooty (Corey Williams) says… Then get yourself a spellchecker/grammar checker as well."Corey has another new name! How many aliases does this make Corey? Again, you have no "facts" to debate so on to the "ad homnium" and personal attacks.Thank you forplaying!"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The UN will have no choice but issue an even more strongly worded letter!"Boy ain't that the truth of the Useless Nations. The main vote on the leter is "We have to use bold, but will it be helvetica or Times New Roman? Which looks better in Bold? Should we use Italics?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 7 months ago

Asbestos, I am not a mirror image of you. I condemn all violence, whether from Hamas, Hezbollah or Israel. The best thing that could happen in this world would be to convene a war crimes tribunal, and put all of those responsible on trial for their crimes, and if convicted, punish them appropriately. There are plenty of worthy candidates from Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel.

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2009/01/09/nbc-s-gregory-describes-hamas-terrorist-group-bent-destruction-israel"Asbestos, I am not a mirror image of you. I condemn all violence, whether from Hamas, Hezbollah or Israel."BS bozo, you do not condem violence from Hamas and Hezbollah, you are justifying it by demonizing Israel.You just cannot accept Israel's right to exist, and you share that view with Hamas. My Proof?All of your posts are supportive of Hamas and you justify and substanciate their violence. You get all PO'ed when Israel takes out a motar implacement in a school that kill citizen's collaterally because Hamas the darn motar there in the first place.What do you expect Israel to do? Let the rockets continue to be launched on their people? The pattern with Hamas is to continue launching rockets from these schools and hospitals, and surround then with children, then crying about all the collateral damage and deaths.Do you want Israel to wait for a stifly worded letter from the Useless Nations? That letter would still condemn Israel if they took no action agains Hamas. The Useless Nations has shown time and again anti-semitism plain and simple.Those that support Hanas, Hezbollah, and Fatah and demonize Israel in this 2nd Intafada declared on them by Hamas and Hezbollah, those that apologize for Hamas are::**Anti-Semites".It is that simple and the "cease fire" is simple:"Hamas stop launching rockets".So Bozo pack all your hatred in your anti semite bag and Smirk, Smirk, Smirk.But do not flash the "peace sign" anymore or state you "deplore violence", because you do not, you enjoy and cheer violence against Israel, and you give them no value.That is called "Hatred", of people you porbably have never met. You just follow along with the brainless lefty professors tell you to believe, or your "weed smoking buddies".But it is "hatred" and "anti-semitism".So don;t paint yourself the self stylized enlightened peacenick hippie of 2010."Peace Out!"

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"We are world full of alpha males and sociopaths who we see in bars and in public every day. I don't know how many times I wish I happened to have a crowbar in my back pocket."That may be true in smaller towns or "small ponds" but it does not hold water in larger population centers. That "alpha" type situation and you applied it to males says a lot psycologically and well as your attitued of carrying a crowbar and associating it with "bars".That is a pretty arrogant judgement with a narrow view of a small slice of life.Judgement on very little data?Very telling post Nancy, very telling! You made the discussion about You, not about Hamas, and you used your "bar world view".Pretty embarrassing.

Harpo 6 years, 7 months ago

Having read all 84 posts on this thread, my only dilemma is whether to use said crowbar on my computer monitor or upside my own head.

tunahelper 6 years, 7 months ago

bozo is full of dog crap. hamas broke the ceasefire. hamas is terrorists who fire unguided missles onto Israeli civilians. Israel is defending itself.I hope and pray that Israel nukes all the palestians back into the stone age!

ASBESTOS 6 years, 7 months ago

"For instance, targeted killings are war crimes."WHAT DO YOU CALL BUS BOMBINGS AND RESTURAUNT BOMBINGS AND LAUNCHING KATUSHA AND QUASSAM ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL THEN. ISN'T THAT "TARGETING CIVILIANS"?Your criticism is too selective to be taken seriously. Becides Isreal did this morning drop leaflets stating just where their next offensive is going to be, and for all citizens to get out of then next pahse of the operations area. How much you wanna bet that Hamas rounds up people and sticks them into those areas, and then complains about "civilians getting killed"?Hamas is the problem and failure to recognise it is the problem. If Israel was "targeting civilians" there would be a helluva lot more killed than 760!"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Does anybody ever hold Isreal accountable?"Why does no one hold Hezbollah and Hamas accountable, including the Useless Nations?"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""'"Must be why there are so many rockets."Nope, it is the reverse. Israel only attacks when ther are rockets coming over to their territory. remember Windass that Israel gave back all the Gaza to Palestine, and still the Palestinians, Hamas, and Hezbollah is not satisfied.The Problem is Hamas and Hezbollah, even the arab street recognizes they stepped out of line. It took 6 days for the arab nations to respond because Hamas does more damage to the arab cause than Israel.Wake up, open your mind and quit swallowing every stupid lefty thing that comes out and actually analyze the facts.Hamas is the problem.

Mixolydian 6 years, 7 months ago

I don't see the Israeli soldiers hiding behind women and children. I don't see Israeli rockets fired from Synagogues.Look Hamas, do you want your Jihad or not?

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