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Archive for Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Young reader questions negative stigma about marijuana

February 10, 2009

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Dear W & K: If marijuana has never killed anyone (people kill people) nor has it been proven detrimental to your health, why is it considered such a dangerous drug? Ancient tribes smoked the stuff as a means of peace with their enemies, it has been proven to greatly benefit cancer patients and even reduces male’s sperm count (population control). Why is there so much negative stigma associated with it? And where did all these false “facts” come from?

Kelly: Since the fifth grade we’ve been taught through various health classes and DARE programs that all drugs are bad for us and that we should not use them. We learned about drug abuse and what would happen to us if each drug were taken. For some of the students this created fear, and for others curiosity.

To some, marijuana is considered a bad drug because it is classified as a “gateway drug” — it may lead to other drugs like crack and heroin. However, these beliefs do not have actual solid, statistical proof. Yet many firmly believe that abusing marijuana will lead to a domino effect, damaging not only health but the socioeconomic aspect of society as well. There are some slight risks to marijuana use, including a higher heart rate and blood pressure, paranoia and enhanced senses. Some marijuana contains some of the same cancer-causing compounds of tobacco. But then again nearly everything in society is branded with a “warning” label, including cigarettes and alcohol which are legal.

The positive factors of marijuana include its wide-ranging clinical uses. These include pain relief (particularly nerve damage), glaucoma and movement disorders. Marijuana also increases appetite, specifically for patients who have HIV, AIDS or dementia.

Perhaps we need to start looking at things from a two-sided perspective. Yes, marijuana can be medically beneficial and, yes, there are some factors and reactions to marijuana that are bad. Yet I feel as though the laws restricting marijuana should be loosened. Since 1973, Alaska, California, Colorado, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, Ohio and Oregon each have enacted decriminalization laws. These laws make it so marijuana users no longer face jail time (nor in most cases, arrest or criminal records) for the possession or use of small amounts of marijuana. Internationally, many governments have enacted similar policies.

Wes: There are too many angles on this topic for the space allowed. Whatever we say many readers will not like it because as Kelly and our letter-writer point out, much of the general perspective on marijuana is based on propaganda and emotion. Before the “pro-marijuana” readers light one up in my honor and the “anti-marijuana” readers light up the Internet in protest, I’ll add that the propaganda goes BOTH WAYS.

Our writer is in the majority of his peer group. His portrayal of marijuana as harmless and actually quite delightful is the general cultural zeitgeist among teens and young adults — even those who don’t partake. Call me a 210-pound buzz kill, but I will never be a fan of substance abuse. Sitting in this chair I see one family after another whose marriages, careers and families have been destroyed in the bottle or on the pipe, all of whom were quite sure that they were immune from such things. And that doesn’t touch the number who’ll die this year from cigarette use and those with tobacco-related illnesses who will consume a large share of Medicare and other health resources.

Of course, many people use substances responsibly, and I see them, too. But on any given evening in Lawrence, I’d suggest you drive safely or not at all, because you’re on the road with a bunch of them who don’t — and most will get away with it. So I don’t make any positive distinction between alcohol and marijuana or other drug abuse.

The research does suggest that marijuana is among the less physically addictive drugs. But a great many things are not physically addictive — like sex and World of Warcraft — and yet each can press certain individuals beyond their capacity for control. Why would weed be any different? If it didn’t modify perception, brain functioning and response, then why would anyone spend money on it? As with anything pleasurable, some people are going to stop what they’re doing and pay it more heed than other necessary aspects of life, often to their detriment. And that’s an addiction.

Even if pot addicts are a distinct minority, I’ve become increasingly frustrated with the absolute refusal by recreational users to see any possible negative impact on their own lives. Repeatedly I’ve had a young person tell me that they are lethargic, falling behind in schoolwork, inattentive, anxious or even paranoid. When asked how much they smoke they become defensive and say, “That’s not it!” The issue is off the table and cannot be discussed because the zeitgeist tells them that weed is good and anyone who says otherwise must also believe in evil fairies. Everyone can cite a couple of honor students or uncle Joe with the Ph.D. who “smokes every day and done just fine.”

The propaganda on the other side isn’t much better. Lumping marijuana in with other drugs and suggesting that its abuse is worse than alcohol isn’t supported in the literature. These scare tactics just make young people more willing to stick to their guns and ignore the possibility that all this smoking isn’t such a great idea. Whether or not legalization is a worthy goal depends on your theory of what works and what doesn’t.

As a psychologist trying to look out for teens and their families, I’d be a lot more excited about the criminalization of marijuana if it actually did reduce the rate of usage or interdict the supply. If anything, weed is easier for kids to get than alcohol and cigarettes because it is unregulated and underground. Despite my general grumpiness about substance abuse — in fact because of it — I can’t help but wonder whether our current approach is getting teenagers, young adults and society any closer to sensibility on this issue.

— Dr. Wes Crenshaw is a board-certified family psychologist and director of the Family Therapy Institute Midwest. Kelly Kelin is a senior at Free State High School. Opinions and advice given here are not meant as a substitute for psychological evaluation or therapy services. Send your questions about adolescent issues (limited to 200 words) to doubletake@ljworld.com. All correspondence is strictly confidential.

Comments

lounger 5 years, 5 months ago

ITs a damn plant. We have receptors for it in our body. what does that tell you? Grow up and except is o.k. to use plants as medicine. A sight better than the poison that is called modern medicine. Use it its fine....

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igby 5 years, 5 months ago

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

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rusty2 5 years, 5 months ago

it's always better to be baked than fried.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

I reccommend the documentary "Grass" if anyone is interested in the corrupt history of marijuanna legislation in this country, and the smear campaign that a man named Harry Anslinger personally crusaded upon for his entire career to convince the people that a weed that grows on the side of country roads was our next public health crisis.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

barry:"These simple arguments can be used to defend guns and bj's in the oval office."-------------Then I guess it's a good thing that the arguments to legalize pot are based on non-simple things like facts and scientific data. Things that you obviously haven't taken the time to look for.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

Larry shouldn't attack anyone when he can't even spell.Subsistance???

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feeble 5 years, 5 months ago

It is hard to convince kids that things like pot are bad, when a significant number of their peers are taking drugs like ritalin or prozac. The legality issue flies over their heads, they just see some kids get to take psychoactive substances and others don't.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

Larry_the _moocher, I probably make more in a day than you do in a week. Actually I may make more in a day than you do in a month, depending on the day. No recession here. But what does my work status have to do with you belittling a teenager?

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

Barry, if you can't contribute something useful to the conversation then you're going to have to sit in the corner.Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the life expectancy of a third world country has to do with this topic?

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

Thank You invictus. At least you can say someone took the title from you for a day.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"Your con job trying to convince people that weed is healthy should be removed from the thread."Who said that it was healthy? Or are you referring to logrithmic's posting that it is less unhealthy than other major drugs consumed?

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

barry, my point is still valid: the life expectancy of that country has nothing to do with this argument. Corner for you!Strangely enough, I find myself in near-agreement with 75x55. Either prosecute them all, or allow them all. However, it seems that pragmatism, the history of prohibition legislation in this country, and the astronomical cost of the war on drugs will eventually lead us to the best decision.

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The_Sandwichman 5 years, 5 months ago

A few points people:1. Tobacco and alcohol are worse and cause worse health conditions with less possible positive effects2. Recreational and occassional users rarely hurt others and don't have a high risk of dependency or screwing things up3. In any situation you'll have people that use it way too much and blow other things off. This even happens with fast food.You can't have tobacco and alcohol legal and just say pot is the devil. I'd prefer all three be illegal, but that won't happen so be fair and decriminalize pot.

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bakeru 5 years, 5 months ago

Marijuana has a bad stigma and I'm not sure why, other than the fact that it is illegal. However, alcohol used to be illegal. We need to question the law more and seek out answers. Why is marijuana illegal? I think marijuana causes far less harm than alcohol or harder drugs. I am not buying the whole "gateway drug" theory.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

bakeru: watch the documentary "grass" for all the answers. The short answer to your question: Harry Anslinger.

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Confrontation 5 years, 5 months ago

I know several people who have smoke marijuana for most of their lives, and you can definitely tell it. They're not all "there" in the head. I don't mind, though, since it pretty much wipes them out of the competition.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

psst, mike, your study is ten years old!!! Also, all the negative effects that you mentioned come from smoking....anything!Also, how can you assert in paragraph 1 that THC has value as a treatment for anything, then in the last paragraph give examples of conditions treatable with Marinol, which is just THC minus the smoke? It's hard to look good cherry-picking your data when they contradict each other.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

should say "that THC has no value as....."

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

and by the way, marijuana is not....say it slowly now, not..... a chemically addictive substance. That is a lie, plain and simple. Get the facts straight.

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

I work with drug offenders. Through experience and education, I can tell you there are significant health risks to Marijuana use. For example, I have a chart in my office that shows a 16 y/o's brain scan after 2yrs of daily use - it compares to a latent stage Alzhiemer's patient - no other brain scan of legal or illegal substance users show that extent of damage over even longer time periods. The NIDA reported in 2008 that approximately 11% of fatal accident victims test positive for Marijuana use. That same institute also reported numerous studies that all indicated that being under the influence of Marijuana carries the same risks when driving as Alcohol - both are depressants and delay our central nervous system.The National Institute of Medicine reported that smoking marijuana is not recommended for treatment of any disease and even will lead to a variety of health problems including cancer, respiratory disease, increased heart rate, loss of motor skills, and impaired immune system.The chemical THC (found in Marijuana) could be used to treat some disease. Pharmceutical companies have isolated pure THC from the other 400 chemicals in marijuana and it is available is prescription Marinol.

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

Also, recent studies indicate a significant link between regular Marijuana use and mental illness such schizo. cthulhu_4_president - I think it is common knowledge that Marijuana itself is not physically addicting, however the psychological high (release of endorphins) is addictive. I have seen people give up jobs, families, homes, and cars to continue using - isn't that indicative of a serious problem?

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

logrithmic-I like how you used that one sentence out of an entire article to support your arguement. Especially since the rest of the article talks about how chronic use will lead to psychological addiction, withdrawl symptoms, and such.You must rely on the fact that very few people think anything you cite is worth looking into!

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

madmike: You should research work done by scientists, not politicians, and you'll have more success. Thanks for resulting to the usual insulting, though. Always helps your case. DMH1983: yes it is indicative of a serious problem. The problem is with people who prioritize marijuanna over jobs, families, homes, and cars. People do the same thing with alchohol, porn and video games. All these things release endorphins and can become addictive. Where is the crusade against video games?It is also ridiculous to believe that two years of MJ use does more harm to the brain than 2 years of ecstasy or meth use. Your scan of one child in your office does not prove anything, outside of the condition of that one person.Not arguing with the driving part. Driving under any influence is a stupid idea, however it should be pointed out that "tests positive for MJ" only means that they ingested it within the past 2 weeks, and so may not have contributed to the accident.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

madmike: "My data came from a government website. Somehow, I would rather believe them than the likes of some of you!"Are you sure? There's probably a 50% chance the source is a liberal democrat. That would lead to some major cognitive dissonance, wouldn't it?

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9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

Pot is illegal because of the timber industry. The crazy drug crap came as lever to get rid of the hemp industry to allow the timber industry to be number one. http://stateofaffairs.info/archive/great-quotes-marijuana-illegal/Anslinger, DuPont petrochemical interests and William Randolph Hearst together created the highly sensational anti-marijuana campaign to eliminate hemp as an industrial competitor. Indeed, Anslinger did not himself consider marijuana a serious threat to American society until in the fourth year of his tenure (1934), at which point an anti-marijuana campaign, aimed at alarming the public, became his primary focus as part of the government's broader push to outlaw all drugs.HEY GUYS, put that in your pipe and smoke it!Do you feel stupid?

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

logrithmic-I did give you references: The National Institute of Medicine and the NIDA - I am refering to published studies that you can access by looking up thier agency websites - sorry I only have the clinicial books - not webmd links. Furthermore, I never said that THC itself does not offer benefits -it's too bad the THC content in a joint is less that 1%. This is why -and i will state it again - Marinol (pure THC) is available for treatment such as Alzhiemers (which was found in one study, not studies) on a prescribed basis. Again, I agree Marijuana is not physically addictive, but as your Merck study states - it is psychologically addictive and causes withdrawl symptoms. As far as costs, raids only occur due to warrant executions for production and sale - not simple possession. cthulhu- I would be glad to mail you a copy of my chart or fax it to you if you'd like to look at the different scans. And I agree, there other destructive habits and addictions - unfortunately that arguement is not valid since porn and video games are not depressants that are mind altering. I agree that alcohol is just as damaging - maybe you'd have better luck arguing for it to be prohibited. Meanwhile, I have a caseload full of clients that even at the cost of thier freedom, will not stay clean for thier supervision terms - and yes, most are marijuana users or at least started out that way.

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

Logrithmic-Explain how my comments are "seat of the pant observations"? This makes no sense! Are you high right now?

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 5 months ago

"If anything, weed is easier for kids to get than alcohol and cigarettes because it is unregulated and underground."--WesWell, seeing as how 18-year-old seniors in highschool can purchase cigarettes at any gas station and many kids parents actually drink alcohol and my have a few liquor bottles sitting around, I really do not understand the logic in that statement.Seems to me that people are willing to admit that pot really isn't that harmful in the scope of things. I would bet that most kids have tried alcohol or cigarettes long before they tried pot. People just don't want to give up that old image of the dastardly weed that ruins families and leads to heroin and crack. We can't "send our kids the wrong message." I know many successful people who smoke pot--that doesn't make them drug addicts. It's about time for some sensibility when it comes to pot.

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9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

blah blah blah logrithmic- go smoke a doobie and think about how much thc you're inhaling.anywhoI wouldn't want to take man made chemical pills if to sooth whatever needs soothing (ex:appetite-cancer) if I knew I could do it naturally. And I do know. I don't mind that it doesn't work "As well", I'd rather not pop some crazy pills. Plus, if I ever develop cancer, I'll be a little happier when I'm high...and eating.

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cthulhu_4_president 5 years, 5 months ago

"And I agree, there other destructive habits and addictions - unfortunately that arguement is not valid since porn and video games are not depressants that are mind altering."---------What?! Why? You didn't mention the depressive aspect as necessary when talking about the people who have given up their lives to pot, and it has nothing to do with the endorphins or supposed physical addiction that can occur. They don't need to be depressants to be mind-altering, the endorphins make it mind-altering also! I thought that someone in your position would know that. By your logic, cocaine isn't mind-altering because it isn't a depressant. You are dismissing my points based on ficticious criteria, and your knowledge about the basic facets of addiction is lacking. I have no interest in looking at any cherry-picked data that you have, mail them wherever you wish, as your last post exhibits an intellectual dishonesty that is alarming for someone in a position as sensative as yours.By the way, alchohol was prohibited at a time. Remember how that turned out.

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9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

Oh yah and keep talking about how awful pot is.That way when someone trys it and figures out that it's "not that bad." ...then they'll also realize that coke, meth and heroin are also not that bad! yehaw! group em all together!

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 5 months ago

And by the way, with a government having a position of "Drug Czar" and lumping cannabis in with Schedule I substances--meaning that their is no accepted medical use--I highly question the objectivity of ANY government-produced publication regarding the "scientific and medical study" of cannabis use.

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denak 5 years, 5 months ago

For those who think pot is harmless, it should be noted that quite recently the news media reported on a link between marijuana use and an agressive form of testicular cancer. This form of cancer accounts for 40% of testicular cancer cases. And is especially prevelant in men who started getting high when they were in their teens.So, our letter writer might want to think about that the next time he decides lighting up is "harmless."Dena

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 5 months ago

denak, I read that study. The people who conducted it even admitted that there was no "clear" link between pot use and testicular cancer. Much more research needs to be done on pot's health effects, but I'm afraid that the current government stance on the plant will prevent that from occurring any time in the foreseeable future.

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BrianR 5 years, 5 months ago

cthulhu_4_president (Anonymous) says… "Barry, if you can't contribute something useful to the conversation then you're going to have to sit in the corner."Maybe even the Group W bench.

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

You are going to believe what you want, and do want you want. I'm sure in your world you make sense. Good luck, please be safe, and I hope to not see any of you under Court supervision.

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

Log-Unless you can also legalize Cocaine, Heroin, X, Meth, Salvia, Psyclibin, PCP, Steroids, underage Alcohol use and driving under the influence - you will never make my job uneccessary. Congrats to Bill, George, and Barack - they experimented and moved on. As for Mr. Phelps, do you think he was high when he won those medals? As for your crusade - keep fighting, but it will never happen.

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kmat 5 years, 5 months ago

DMH1983 says "The National Institute of Medicine reported that smoking marijuana is not recommended for treatment of any disease and even will lead to a variety of health problems including cancer, respiratory disease, increased heart rate, loss of motor skills, and impaired immune system."Tell that to my sister who I watched suffer through a year of chemo. Pot would have been good for her. At least it could have given her a desire to eat. Anyone that says there is no good use needs to watch someone die from cancer. To you DMH - I salute you with my middle finger.I don't believe at all your bs story about a teen with the brain of an alzheimers patient. I know some serious partiers and also am living with a parent that has alzheimers. And from that I will say you are talking out your *ss. I also know a doctor that smokes. Hmmm, a dr??? And yet it's so bad it's going to turn us all into alheimers patients. Interesting. I would say from your posts you work for a treatment program and will no matter what always think there is no way anyone could possibly partake of any substance and not be an addict. If it helps you sleep at night, ok. But you are wrong.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

Unless you can also legalize Cocaine, Heroin, X, Meth, Salvia, Psyclibin, PCP, Steroids, underage Alcohol use and driving under the influence - you will never make my job uneccessary. Now we are getting somewhere. At the very least we could let the states decide on issues like this.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

As for your crusade - keep fighting, but it will never happen.Never is a long time.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

Well, we don't outlaw booze and it kills more than all the rest. How are the ones you mentioned worse than alcohol abuse. Alcohol is usually tied to the worst crimes you can think of.

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jesusturds 5 years, 5 months ago

alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal if a harmless weed is

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9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

You people still fail to recognize what started the whole "war on pot"

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"I know stoners with little kids that smoke in front of them."Do you? You a closet leftist hippie lover Barrypenders? Whatcha doing hanging out with dopers? Or are you just making things up?

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Jcjayhawk1 5 years, 5 months ago

CIgaretts & Alcohol kill over 500K people a year.Marijuana's health hazards can be cut drasticly just by eating the fat soluable active ingredient, THC. You can make it into butter then into cookies or which ever treat you desire.I think that the Federal Govt. really should spend it's resources elsewhere. Let the states decide for themselves. Marijuana's prohabition was incited by fear and racism. The drug company lobby has much to gain by keeping Marijuana illegal. People with HIV,Aids, and cancer would be able to grow or purchase their own for next to nothing. They would rather you purchase opiates (derived from the very same plant that heroin comes from) for pain relief.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

denak (Anonymous) says… "For those who think pot is harmless, it should be noted that quite recently the news media reported on a link between marijuana use and an agressive form of testicular cancer."Pretty sure that's not something logrithmic has to worry about.It always amuses me when the stoners like logrithmic talk about taking militant action to legalize pot.If only they had the motivation to actually do something instead of talking about it from the couch.

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pace 5 years, 5 months ago

The war on drugs, seems more to be a war on poor people or people of color. What I wait for is the war on theft. The police shrug their shoulders, saying they are impotent to stop theft. The courts consider it a white collar crime, if they rob families of their savings and oldsters of their pensions. Our identities are being traded globally and sold for pennies on the dollar. I think letting the juvenile thief getting hooked on theft is the gateway to murder. There should be something the police can do besides ignore it. I would like to see task forces and action on theft.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

gogoplata: "Well, we don't outlaw booze and it kills more than all the rest. How are the ones you mentioned worse than alcohol abuse. Alcohol is usually tied to the worst crimes you can think of."Of course, alcohol also has something in contrast to the other drugs on that list in that it Is legal, and thus widely available, and so consumed more than all the others combined, I'm willing to bet. If the others like crack and heroin were consumed as much as alcohol, something tells me that their respective casualty count would eclipse alcohol's by quite a lot. That is assuming that legalization raised consumption rates by that much, which I'm not sure is actually a fair assumption.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

pace (Anonymous) says… "The war on drugs, seems more to be a war on poor people or people of color."Are you saying that people of color are more likely to be drug users, pace?

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trinity 5 years, 5 months ago

ok so which is worse-winding down of an evening with a hit off the ganja, or the hags who run around work every day all strung out on their "prescription" pills such as zanax, etc? there is so much prescription abuse i'm amazed. pop a pill, make it all better...and some want to get all up in arms over occasional pot use. sheeez. and i apologize if somebody has already spoken on this.

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Tony Kisner 5 years, 5 months ago

love this thread could only be better if some how walmart was selling pot or a field of pot was torn down to make way for the new walmart.Homeless walmart employee arrested for smoking pot in a roundabout while waiting for a T system bus.

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grammaddy 5 years, 5 months ago

I'm 54 and have been a toker since late teens. I know madmike and nancy-tom will have a heyday with this and I could care less. I still function well enough to hold down 3 jobs and take care of the grandkids(my favorite). I can't believe, in this day and age, that anyone would admit to "trusting the government rather than self-confessed users" on this one. It's all propaganda from the government because they haven't figured out a way to tax it, with all the different potencies and all. Legalizing marijuana would go a long way toward solving a lot of problems in this country. The hemp plant can be used for so much more than just smoking. We could save a lot of trees and take a big step towards fixing the global warming issue if we used hemp fibers for paper and cloth. Do your research right. Know the real facts, not the government issued ones.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

May I ask again (as one is wont to do when trying to have a discussion of legal issues surrounding controlled substances with potheads…)So, where to draw the lines between the various forms to mentally-impairing forms of substances - such as alcohol, marijuana, certain mushrooms, heroin?If you can come up with a rational, logical system that addresses the other out-of-control dangerous substances out there, you're far closer to a real plan to have your precious legalized weed.Or are you more interested in being whiney victims that argue tangential issues?I've smoked weed exactly 3 times in my life. So I wouldn't consider myself a pothead. A good start would be to get the Federal Government out of the picture. Leave it up to the States to have the debate on where to draw the line. If I were making the laws I would decriminalize all drugs. Drug and alcohol abuse are personal problems. Law enforcement should be used to take care of real crime.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

Right up until…… when? People's personal actions become criminal by affecting others in violent/destructive ways.That is my point. You can prosecute actual crimes that way. The “states” argument doesn't really work - if states ran the show, there would be wide-open use in some and executions in others - how does that promote justice and equality?Again, that is my point. It works perfectly if you believe in freedom, states rights, and federalism.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

grammaddy (Anonymous) says… "I'm 54 and have been a toker since late teens. I know madmike and nancy-tom will have a heyday with this and I could care less. I still function well enough to hold down 3 jobs and take care of the grandkids"Perhaps if you hadn't been toking for almost 40 years you'd be able to get a job that would pay your bills without having to work two others.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

Hope that right-to-carry and leniency on blasting goblins to their just reward is the order of the day in this mythical world you describe. There would be a lot of that going on.What are you talking about? You lost me.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"Sorry log, I don't smoke."Well, we'll take your word for it, but I must admit that this sentence: "Just because your a hedonist does pot because your too lazy to self-pleasure yourself, doesn't mean the rest of us want pot legal."calls that into question.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"So, back to my original ? - where to do draw the line, and by what criteria, for a responsible 'drug policy'?"Whatever you can get away with, of course. I hope you're not actually expecting some sort of consistency on the issue. There's none to be had, past the two that virtually no one are really comfortable with. Being "ban them all" or "legalize them all."Welcome to real life, where there is no Truth.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

The mythical world of the libertarian, where personal responsibility and action is the only real restraint on society.Which is an ideal dream world, which has never existed, as it does not accurately reflect human nature.If you don't understand what a “goblin” is, think of a home invasion perp, or similar lawless criminal - freely choosing their method of expressing their individual personality.Government has its place. This just isn't one of them. When one of those goblins you are talking uses their individual method of expressing themselves and violating the rights of other individuals, that is when it is time for government to step in. Preventative law enforcement is just about as dumb as preventative war.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

75x55 here is how I see it. You draw the line when a true criminal offense takes place. People drink alcohol. Some drink and have fun, enjoy themselves, and hurt no one. Some drink then they fight, shoot, rape and kill. We punish the crime not the drinking. Why not do the same with all drugs? Makes sense to me.

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

I do support the 2nd ammendment. See we would no longer need to waste tax payer dollars chasing after smugglers and dealers. The war on drugs is a colossal failure just like prohibition. We have drugs in maximum security prisons. The war on drugs has created far more problems than it has solved. You should be able to see the similarities with the failure of prohibition and the problems it created.

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Calliope877 5 years, 5 months ago

FYI: The vid I posted has some foul language in it.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Defender (Anonymous) says… "And by the way, you talk like you're involved in the mental health profession in some way, yet you use the term schizo."I don't know about DMH (not 'DHM'), but I AM in the mental health profession. And we DO use the term schizo.****musbhiorlo (Anonymous) says… "The possibility that it will be abused if legal, is not a valid reason to keep it illegal."Perhaps not. However, it is an even weaker argument for legalizing it.***none2 (Anonymous) says… "Unfortunately, if you did attend, your higher power would most likely be a pot plant."To logrithmic, a pot plant is not a higher power.Just a higher intelligence.****logrithmic (Anonymous) says… "These are unsupported lies. Please cite a single instance where I've admitted to any illicit drug use."So you're making dozens of ranting posts vehemently arguing a point you have no stake in? There's a word for that.Troll.

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Corey Williams 5 years, 5 months ago

"So you're making dozens of ranting posts vehemently arguing a point you have no stake in?There's a word for that.Troll."So does the same go for the guys who post about the abortion issue?

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grammaddy 5 years, 5 months ago

notajayhawk...I find your remark totally offensive. Never assume that someone is working three jobs because they can't find just one to support them selves. I graduated Washburn Law School in 1980 and have been practicing ever since. My "primary" job pays the bills just fine. The other 2 are on a voluntary basis. I volunteer my skills at a non-profit being put together by an old friend and the other job is working with at-risk teens, also voluntary. I consider them "jobs" because they are done on a regular basis and provide me with much more than a paycheck ever could. Know who and what you are dealing with before you attack or ass u me.

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grammaddy 5 years, 5 months ago

And Logrithmic, thank you for your support in this arguement. Looks like they jumped on you pretty badly after I left this post yesterday. I just couldn't type fast enough to keep up with all the reichwingers. Again I thank you for your defense and support. What a brave being you are!!

May God Bless you!!

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

After all, Prohibition didn't just occur in a vacuum - there was a reason that it was approved and became a full-blown constitutional amendment…

There is also a reason that it isn't one anymore. That is the whole point here. It didn't work. It created more problems than it solved. Just like the war on drugs.

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grammaddy 5 years, 5 months ago

75x55 Illegal yes, Immoral, I think not. When was I whining? I support a few organizations that deal with this. And I am not supporting or enriching the violent criminal enterprises in doing so. More propaganda from the government. Since I smoke, I must be supporting terrorism. logrithmic, you are very welcome.!!

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9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

You all a bunch of idiots.

The war on pot was created by Harry J. Anslinger, who created it because of the timber vs. hemp industry. Everyone knows that hemp is a better deal than timber for various productions. He did this with Hearst.
Research him. He created the term "reefer madness." His studies and research was extremely fabricated. He was also a racist who viewed jazz music as the devil. The jazz musicians and the artist, boho crowd smoked pot. He called jazz music "Satanic" He feared that black men were having sex with white women.
He did all of this in support of the timber industry. Also with DuPont of the DuPont plastic, because hemp seed oil could take over his petroleum based industry. Alas, we all know that hemp is more natural, cheaper, biodegradable, easier to produce and productive way to aid various products.

Read up on his famous quotes. The argument of whether a substance is good or bad, can be applied to any substance. What you need to observe is if it's road to judgment was ethical, practical and lawful.
The following are excerpts of Mr. Anslinger's testimony before a Senate hearing on marijuana in 1937:

"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."

"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."

Agreed: Prohibition created more problems than it solved. Although, man created alcohol and god/mother nature created pot; who do you trust?

What do you think of all that?

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gogoplata 5 years, 5 months ago

Everybody knows that drugs and alcohol can really screw up your life. But there will always be people who do it anyway. That is their choice and their consequences. The only time it should concern law enforcment is when they do something that hurts someone else. Things like theft, assault, murder, and rape. Real crimes.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

grammaddy (Anonymous) says…

"notajayhawk…I find your remark totally offensive. Never assume that someone is working three jobs because they can't find just one to support them selves. I graduated Washburn Law School in 1980 and have been practicing ever since. "

I'm sure the state bar association would appreciate knowing that. And I'm sure your clients get the best possible representation from someone who's been lighting up for almost 40 years.

Tell me, gram, do you inform your clients beforehand that their legal matters are in the hands of someone under the influence of a mind-altering substance? I mean, if there's no problem, they shouldn't object.


logrithmic (Anonymous) says…

“To logrithmic, a pot plant is not a higher power.

Just a higher intelligence.”

"?????????"

The fact that you didn't understand the statement pretty much proved it. Have someone that still has a few functioning brain cells explain it to you.

“An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]”

"My posts have been on-topic ..."

Did you happen to see the little word "or" in that definition, loggie? Are you capable of understanding two-letter words? Do you understand the concept that in a list of four options with the word "or," the fact that you don't meet one of the four doesn't exclude you?

I guess we can add to that wonderful definition - someone who uses a definition from Wiki (and one that he evidently didn't understand, at that) to deny the fact of his being a troll.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"Tell me, gram, do you inform your clients beforehand that their legal matters are in the hands of someone under the influence of a mind-altering substance?"

Silly silly Notajayhawk. Would you tell one of your passengers in your car that you were driving under the influence because you drank alcohol, regardless of whether you had in the recent timeframe or not?

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

Logrithmic-

Do you even work? It seems you have a lot of time to post your crap comments and articles!

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"This is because he is likely a cop. Folks, this is why you should keep private information to yourselves. The rightwing will lie and hide their true purpose - as 76x55 as done."

You sound insane. Just an FYI.

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TacoBob 5 years, 5 months ago

Why does one feel the need to take drugs and 'check out'? Trouble dealing with reality?

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ThoughtPonderer 5 years, 5 months ago

Moderation is the key to everything. . .fast food, sugar, video games, sex, nicotine, alcohol and marijuana. Anything can be addictive.

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coolmom 5 years, 5 months ago

growing up in a family that abused a number of drugs i vote for pot legalization since the beatings were always worse when the folks didnt have pot to take the edge off....of course the money was usually gone and i am pretty sure there was illegal activities to pay for the drugs but i still say save a kid let them smoke.

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coolmom 5 years, 5 months ago

fortunately i do not need you to believe me, however it is true and the family name if you are a long time lawrence resident would be recognized. i now help kids and have just finished adopting a teen want to know the abusive parents main drug of choice? i tend to agree that on the whole i would much rather deal with someone on marijuana than almost any other drug. did you not get what i said? legalize because in my and my sibs case it made things easier for us if the folks were stoned. no kidding it reduces the likelyhood of violence was that not what i said?

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

Was the purpose of that to prove that you're insane, going through my comment history for my comedic pyrite to post as serious assertions? If it was apparent that you weren't serious posting the paranoid rants that came before, there would have been nothing said.

At any rate, most of those make at least psuedo-sense viewed in context of the threads they belong to. We have this whole thread (and some of us your posting history) in context, and it doesn't help.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

coolmom: "Did you not get what i said?"

Isn't it fairly obvious that at this point pretty much nothing is penetrating through at all?

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DMH1983 5 years, 5 months ago

"What I do doing my day is none of your damn business."

I am disappointed, I assumed you would make a nasty comment or a grandiose statement but that's all I got? I must have hit a sore spot! I'm guessing that posting on LJW is all you do in your day.

Also, there is a difference between being insane or being a smart a$$.

Your comments prove your an a$$ but not smart...

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"I'm sorry you're too much of a nutcase not to understand that law enforcement trolls this forum."

I assume they're capable, but am sure on both the people, the one you referenced and the one that you meant to, that neither are here because they're trolling for victims.

Your examples, though (funny that you think I somehow missed those twice now, when you posted them first and when I wrote them) only show that I have an active imagination.

"Any reading of your collection of posts will reveal that."

Meh, just the one that only focuses on the silliest of my posts in some attempt to uncreatively turn defense into offense. But from the previous conversations here the many questions and points that you have missed in favor of your repetitious assertions on different topics show that your "reading" is interpretative at best. Simply put, I will admit that all of those referenced points are gibberish, as they were intended to be such. You have just admitted that you believe that everything you've said on this thread is sane and logical. The only person who will agree with you at this point, I believe, is yourself. But I think we all know at this point that we're not going to convince you.

Oh well.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

logrithmic (Anonymous) says…

"75x55," "OK, I'm a troll. So are you."

"BTW, notice how 76x55 did not respond to my 8:34 a.m. request today that he reveal his “stake” in this argument."

BTW, did you happen to notice that it was MY posts you were responding to, not 75x55's? (Or 76x55's?) I know it's hard, stoner, but try to put the pipe down and concentrate for a minute. (At least you did catch your mistake, and only 15 hours later, too! How many times have you read and re-read your own posts to catch the mistake, loggie?)

"The panel recommends that governments consider measures including decriminalizing the use of marijuana."

Imagine that - the leaders of the countries that grow the stuff and ship it here think we should legalize it. Amazing.

"Sorry uncool mom - don't believe you."

Cantcha' just picture poor little loggie, sitting in mommy's basement, putting down the bong for a minute to clamp his hands firmly over his ears and keep saying, over and over, "Not listening ... not listening ..."

Sorry I didn't respond to your post yesterday, stoner. See, unlike you, I was working, and didn't have a whole lot of time to chat in between sessions. I had to go and help some folks who, like you, didn't believe that there was any problem smoking a little weed, at least until they came to us begging for help with the wreckage they've made of their lives.

What's my stake in this, loggie? Well, let's see:

  • besides the stake any citizen has in wanting laws enforced;

  • besides the stake any person has in wanting to be able to go to McD's and not have their order screwed up and their change counted wrong by a stoner with the memory span of a goldfish;

  • besides the stake that any taxpayer has in not wanting to keep spending the money on treatment programs for people who've finally realized their mistakes;

  • besides the stake that any responsible parent has in not wanting their children's minds polluted by the public rantings of a waste-case telling them smoking weed is just fine and dandy:

You were almost right in that I do work in a field that is closely related to drug use. I serve as a clinical supervisor for the addictions programs of a large regional mental health center. And seeing the pain in the faces of my clients and their significant others on a daily basis does give me an interest in making it more difficult for drugs, including MJ, to be obtained. And an interest in disputing the incessant childish ranting of a moron making a deliberate effort to infect others with his ignorance.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Several folks have drawn a parallel between MJ and prescription psychotropic meds. There are some similarites, to be sure. ANY substance that does not occur naturally in a human body (and a few that do) can be poisonous. That's why we require prescriptions for their use.

There are two basic requirements for prescribing a medication:

1) There has to be a need. There are certain medical and psychiatric conditions that justify the use of certain meds, but we don't allow people like loggie to stop at the convenience store on the way home and pick up some Xanax to relax after (pre-)school.

2) The risks must outweigh the benefits. As mentioned, ANY drug is basically poison, some much worse than others. We don't take the hardcore medications used in chemotherapy for a case of the sniffles. Virtually any medication is going to involve some risk, but to justify it's use, the need and the potential benefits must outweigh those risks.

I'm not against, in principle, the use of THC for medically beneficial purposes. However, those benefits can be had by delivering the active agent in MJ through safer means; i.e., if you need THC for its anti-emetic properties, there's no reason why Marinol can't be prescribed. But the stoners here aren't arguing for relaxing the controls on prescibing a pharmaceutical grade prescription medicine, they're saying there's nothing wrong with recreational and social use of a cancer causing smoke from a plant grown in Bubba's backyard.

Or which is it, loggie? Do you have glaucoma or are you undergoing chemo?

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maxcrabb 5 years, 5 months ago

All I want to know is...

Will this thread make it to 420 comments?

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Aiko 5 years, 5 months ago

I am just doing my part to "hit" 420 posts!

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"Sorry Jonas… you lose!"

Haha! I lose what now? You don't even know which side of this issue I'm on.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 5 months ago

"You lose because your statement is a lie. Comprende?"

Except it's not. The simple fact that other people are on the same side of this issue doesn't equate to them thinking anything about you yourself.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

logrithmic (Anonymous) says…

"Interesting - a rightwinger living off of our tax dollars telling us what's good for them. ha ha ha ha."

I have a job and pay taxes, little one. When are you moving out of the basement of mommy's section 8 house?

"And you are part of law enforcement - at least in the medical sense."

Do you even comprehend what you're typing? What was that supposed to mean - law enforcement in the medical sense? Can even you be that much of a cretin? (Hint: That was rhetorical, loggie, you've pretty well supplied the answer to that already.)

"Afraid if cannibis is legal you'll lose your job?"

What I do for a living has nothing whatsoever to do with the legality of any substance, loggie. The overwhelming majority of the clients at our agency come to us voluntarily seeking help because their lives are a mess. Almost as bad as yours. (But at least they had enough functioning grey matter to figure out their problem. Too bad for you.)

And by the way, moron, if you're fighting for the legalization of cannabis, you might try to learn to spell it correctly.

"Besides McDonald's employees and child abusers, who else do you believe smokes pot?"

Well, you, obviously. But the three are not mutually exclusive.

"You are what we call an idiot."

If by "we" you mean a bunch of dopehead trolls who have nothing better to do with your time than to sit here all day trying to defend yourself and look like less of a loser, then by all means, I accept the compliment.

(By the way, did you double check and make sure you were addressing your posts to the right person this time, dopey?)

Look, kid, this is fun, but unlike you, I have a life. Nothing anyone can say is going to change your mind, not even someday when your own kids turn out to be the same source of disappointment and sorrow that you must be to your own parents. I can keep posting, and you'll keep hitting the pipe and spending the next several hours making a dozen or so mindless retorts. And while pointing out your idiocy has its moments, it's kind of like winning a boxing match against a quadraplegic. So by all means, keep up your rantings, I'll probably check in when I need a laugh or too.

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TacoBob 5 years, 5 months ago

logrithmic = the new cool/spiderman/adriane

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Calliope877 5 years, 5 months ago

Aiko (Anonymous) says…

I am just doing my part to “hit” 420 posts!

LOL I happily contribute to this goal.:)

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 5 months ago

I've seen a few folks on here suggesting that there is some blurry line between marijuana and hard drugs like opiates and amphetamines. Yet I often hear people group "drugs" and "alcohol" differently, as in "alcohol AND drugs."

Alcohol is legally sold to and consumed by adults 21 years of age and older in this country. There is no question that frequent and prolonged drinking will eventually result in some rather adverse health effects. I've known people who have smoked pot nearly every day for the past decade who are successful academics and professionals.

My disagreement here is one of drug taxonomy. We often seem to taxonomically distinguish "drugs" and "alcohol" as somehow different in our modern conceptualization of society. But we also know that pot is not the fearsome gateway drug that some allege. By keeping pot illegal, you're legally and taxonomically grouping it with highly deleterious and addictive drugs like opiates and amphetamines. Thus, pot occupies the same illegal market as these far more dangerous drugs.

Alcohol has entire businesses dedicated to its sale, but that is because it is legal and generally socially accepted. Pot, in the our society's collective consciousness, has been portrayed as illegal, dangerous, and highly criminal, along with drugs that are actually dangerous. If we, as a society, were to become tolerant enough of pot to legalize it, then I think our taxonomic grouping of the substance might eventually change. One day, we could very well all be speaking the phrase, "drugs, alchohol, and marijuana," rather than simply "drugs and alcohol." I think we would be much better off in many respects should this ever happen.

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Calliope877 5 years, 5 months ago

Redwood,

I always like reading your posts. You bring some sanity to the board.:)

One thing I've observed from many of the posters on here who are anti-pot is that they seem to think they can distinguish pot smokers from non-pot smokers.

Unfortunately there are some "burn-outs" out there who fit into the stereotype of the dazed and confused stoner; but, my theory is that these people are a minority and probably weren't very bright to begin with -- they obviously shouldn't be smoking.

Most pot-smokers I know are highly educated, well-spoken professionals. Some of them have been using the herb longer than I've been alive, and you can't tell by talking to them.

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bretfulton 5 years, 3 months ago

everybody should just get a bong S.W.E.D (smoke weed every day) 420 hells yea!

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