Archive for Wednesday, December 2, 2009

Ex-player accuses Mangino of mistreatment

KU head coach Mark Mangino looks on from the sideline as the Jayhawks take on Missouri during the Border Showdown Saturday, Nov. 28, 2009 at Arrowhead Stadium.

KU head coach Mark Mangino looks on from the sideline as the Jayhawks take on Missouri during the Border Showdown Saturday, Nov. 28, 2009 at Arrowhead Stadium.

December 2, 2009, 12:00 a.m. Updated December 2, 2009, 5:47 p.m.

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Former KU football player Cory Kipp damaged his hand after doing "bear crawls" as punishment after a practice in 2003.

Former KU football player Cory Kipp damaged his hand after doing "bear crawls" as punishment after a practice in 2003.

Former KU football player Cory Kipp damaged his hand after doing "bear crawls" as punishment after a practice in 2003.

Former KU football player Cory Kipp damaged his hand after doing "bear crawls" as punishment after a practice in 2003.

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Amid denials from Kansas University football coach Mark Mangino that he has physically and verbally abused players during his eight-year tenure in Lawrence, one former player has provided documentation of mistreatment he says he suffered under the coach.

Cory Kipp, a defensive lineman under Mangino in 2002 and ’03, told the Journal-World this week that he endured significant injuries to his hand as a result of a punishment carried out by the coach — a claim backed up by multiple former players, as well as photos taken shortly after the incident.

“It must have been the worst pain I’ve ever felt,” Kipp said.

Mangino, the subject of an internal university investigation into his treatment of players, could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

According to Kipp, who started all 13 games at nose tackle during the ’03 season, the incident transpired as follows:

At the beginning of an afternoon workout in August of ’03, Mangino told Kipp to see him after practice to undergo punishment for the player’s failure to weigh-in earlier that day.

Kipp figured the punishment would be running “cross-fields” — something he and another former player said was a typical penalty for such an infraction — but was instead told to “bear-crawl” across the AstroTurf field at Memorial Stadium on his hands and feet.

Kipp began the crawl and, after moving several yards, felt a burning sensation in his hands. On multiple occasions, Kipp said, he stopped to complain that the turf was burning his hands — according to a University of Arkansas report, artificial playing surfaces have been documented at up to 199 degrees in temperature — but was ordered by Mangino, who was walking alongside the crawling player, to keep going.

By the time Kipp had finished, the skin near the heel of his hand had been completely seared, and photos provided to the Journal-World depict blistering and a sizable area of missing skin.

As a result of the injury, Kipp said, he was forced to undergo extensive treatment on his hand by then-head football trainer Carol Jarosky throughout the next three weeks, and although he said at least two members of the coaching staff were aware of the injury, he was told to practice through it.

“It wasn’t like because my hand was burned, I took a couple days off,” Kipp said. “They made me practice.”

Each day for three weeks, he said, Jarosky — who did not immediately return a phone message seeking comment — would treat and wrap the hand before workouts, using multiple layers of padding. But in the days immediately following the injury, Kipp said, he would return to the locker room after practice with the padding soaked through in blood.

Asked to examine the photos for his opinion on the severity of the damage, Birmingham, Ala.-based dermatologist Conway Huang confirmed the injury was either frictional or heat-related.

If heat-related, Huang wrote in an e-mail to the Journal-World, it was consistent with second-degree burns.

Since allegations arose two weeks ago that Mangino had regularly verbally and physically abused players, however, the coach has contended that he has done nothing inappropriate in his running of the program.

During his weekly radio show Nov. 19, for instance, he lashed out at former players and parents who had spoken out against him, insisting their allegations were an attempt at “15 minutes of fame.” Asked following Saturday’s 41-39 season-ending loss to Missouri whether he’d be willing to tone down his approach if implored to do so by university administrators, meanwhile, he responded, “You’re coming with the assumption that it needs toned down. How I coach is how I coach. Ninety-nine percent of the kids here appreciate it.”

Three other players contacted by the Journal-World confirmed the incident, including Sid Bachmann, a defensive tackle on the ’02 and ’03 Kansas teams, and former fullback Austine Nwabuisi.

“The thing was, that day, it was so hot on the field,” Bachmann said. “... We were running cross-fields, and it was so hot that the bottom of my feet were burning. I could feel the bottom of my feet — through my socks and my cleats, they were burning.”

Despite the severity of the incident, Kipp said an apology — or any sign of remorse on the part of Mangino — would have been enough to move on without any hard feelings.

“If he said that he was sorry, and he didn’t realize (the turf) was that hot, then I would have accepted his apology and that would have been that,” Kipp said. “But I never got that.”

What’s more, during a team meeting later that season, Kipp says Mangino brought the incident up in front of coaches and players — a story confirmed by Bachmann.

After pointing out a tackle that Kipp had missed during the previous week’s game, Mangino allegedly threatened to burn the player’s other hand if he ever missed a tackle again.

“I looked at some of the assistant coaches when (Mangino) said that, and they just had their heads down,” Bachmann said. “Our (defensive line) coach had his head down and he was just shaking his head.”

At the urging of his roommate, meanwhile, Kipp took photos of the damage following the incident and strongly considered approaching athletic director Lew Perkins before deciding against it due to fear of retribution — namely, worries over a potential decrease in playing time or the revocation of his scholarship.

Kipp, who now lives in California, said he was prompted to come forward after hearing Mangino’s denials of earlier allegations involving his mistreatment of players.

“I’m doing this,” Kipp said, “because I’ve got proof how horrible a coach he is.”

Comments

KEITHMILES05 5 years, 5 months ago

This just goes to prove that KU itself was negligent. If these consistently occured and KU took no action then as a university KU will be held liable.

leedavid 5 years, 5 months ago

This story is interesting.....according to the article;

"Kipp figured the punishment would be running “cross-fields” — something he and another former player said was a typical penalty for such an infraction — but was instead told to “bear-crawl” across the AstroTurf field at Memorial Stadium on his hands and feet."

Ran across the field on all fours and only one hand got burned. How did that happen? Seems like both hands would be scared, given both endured the same conditions. Can you stick both hands is a pot of burning water and burn just one hand?

I don't know if this happened or not....just seems odd. This event happened seven years ago, with no report, what is the statue of limitations for such a thing?

TLR 5 years, 5 months ago

IF what this young man says is true, it should be fairly easy to document by talking to the coach who just "shook his head".

That's one element that is missing for me. What are the assistant coaches saying who "saw" all this abuse? Is this one of the reasons his top defensive coach left? The defense has not been the same since.

To me, Mangini is gone due to the fact that he will not be able to recruit with this hanging over his head. That, coupled with all the other "issues" that surround him make him an ineffective head coach.

I know Perkins has to toe the line here; but, he is really hurting recruiting and setting the program back again to the old days by not making and announcing a decision.

Lee Eldridge 5 years, 5 months ago

The assistants aren't going to speak publicly about this. Doesn't mean they haven't spoken with Perkins.

Here's my take on Mangino: http://www.leeeldridge.com/coaching-mangino-and-haley/

Richard Heckler 5 years, 5 months ago

And the AD kept Mangino on plus increased his salary to 3 million.. hmmmmmmmmm. What about this?

Seems like astro turf is not a safe material. Playing on this material during hot days would probably bring on a few burns during game time. Astro turf has history of injuries: http://www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp

So far not one player thus far has complained about permanent knee,ankle,shoulder,elbow and other injuries that have accompanied this sport since inception. How do parents feel about permanent injuries that require pain killers to get through life?

Seems like a few harsh words or a finger in the chest is nothing compared to permanent injuries.

I say KU needs a new coach,new AD and needs to get rid the accident prone astroturf.

Why did USD 497 parents allow astroturf to be installed? http://www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp

kujayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

And all this could have been avoided had the guy showed up to the weigh in.

jaywalker 5 years, 5 months ago

"This just goes to prove that KU itself was negligent. If these consistently occured and KU took no action then as a university KU will be held liable. "

Riiiight. Because (although it says nothing of the kind in the article, soooo there's nothing that "goes to prove" bupkiss) the guilty entity that is KU was obviously aware of all of this. Omniscience is a powerful tool for evil-doers like big bad KU, and we all know how "they" couldn't care less about their students, particularly their student -athletes.

Sheesh.

heybluekc 5 years, 5 months ago

merrill They don't have astro turf at KU anymore, believe its been gone since 2004. In fact no one in the big 12 has astro turf anymore except maybe Texas Tech. What they have is field turf. Its different than astro. Just google it .Im sure you know how to do that. Field turf is much different than astro turf, safer too, athletes like playing on it better than grass. The high schools have field turf as well. Stick to politics. Its easier to claim you know whats going on because no one else really does.

yankeevet 5 years, 5 months ago

Mangino is gone...........................just that simple; and damn good riddance............

alamohawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Here's a kid that has a discipline problem. He "fails" to weigh-in which he knew was manditory because figured he'd just have to run the typical penalty of "cross-fields." I'm surprised anyone cares about this 6 year old accusation from a undisciplined screw up.

lounger 5 years, 5 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

sloppyscience 5 years, 5 months ago

"I'm doing this because I have proof of how horrible a coach he is"

Yeah well, I was in school in '03 at KU, so I have proof of how horrilbe a football player you were. Bear crawls? Really? That's a front page story? Come on hawk fans, it's back to the cellar for us for the next few decades. Yay!!

nbnozzy 5 years, 5 months ago

Kipp needs to take his share of responsibility in this. He could have refused the punishment and left the field. His injuries were self-inflicted in the sense that neither you, me or Mangino physically forced him to do the bear crawl. If my boss told me to do such a thing, you'd hear the biggest "f-off" of all time. Since I refuse to be mistreated by anyone, it doesn't happen. Man up Cory. Maybe you were better suited for the cheer squad.

KULHSLIONSfan 5 years, 5 months ago

There sure are a lot of parallels with Lawrence High football. The comments related to the fear of speaking up for fear of being penalized to a greater extent ring very true.

mom_of_three 5 years, 5 months ago

If this happened, it's awful, but as mentioned previously there are a couple of inconsistencies with the story - and not sure if it is due to the piece itself.
The one thing I noticed is the complaints of practicing on a hot field. Well, what if they had to play a game on the same field during the same temperature? Did Mangino hold his hand down - no, and I can see the coach thinking the complaints about the heat were just because the player was pissed.
It's awful that his injury occurred and it was ignored.

frank mcguinness 5 years, 5 months ago

+1 nbnozzy and larry native.

Cory Kipp is currently knitting beanies for a living.

sherbert 5 years, 5 months ago

I don't think this is an excuse to fire him now, it should have been dealt with back then, not 6 years later.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 5 years, 5 months ago

"Yeah well, I was in school in '03 at KU, so I have proof of how horrilbe a football player you were."

That seems to be a general theme among the complainers. Most (not all) of them are football underachievers who gave a lot to the game and didn't end up playing pro ball... so now they're resentful.

"Hey coach, the grass is hot", coming from a guy who already wussed on his responsibility to show up for weigh-in... how many coaches would have forgiven the punishment in this situation? Not one, not even the Dungys of the world would have let him get away with avoiding his punishment.

Mangino likely thought he was just exaggerating and that's (part of) why he ended up so badly injured. Before reading this, I never would have thought Astroturf would do that to a person.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 5 years, 5 months ago

I think Mangino will coach here next year, if that is his desire.

acg 5 years, 5 months ago

I also think he's whining. It's football! Man up! Sometimes it's hot and sometimes it's cold and sometimes its raining like mad and you gotta do what you gotta do. If you can't handle it, join the drama club. The only part of this that bothers me is the weigh-in, and only because Mangino weighs, what? 400 lbs? It seems a bit hypocritical to me to have some slovenly, disgustingly fat a-hole standing over a scale telling you that you need to lose a pound or two. I heard somewhere that Mangino is so fat that there's a guy on staff who helps him clean himself after using the toilet. Could totally be a rumor, but that's what I heard. Anyone know if that's true?

Bryan Smith 5 years, 5 months ago

We are reading about a kid doing "bear crawls" and blaming the coach for this injury - this is redarndiculous...... WOW ... I hope our kids don't suffer this type of punishment in the military. The new coach if Mangino is gone- should invest in a flag football set...because he has his work cutout for him and we will be worse than K-STATE back in the day!

9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

2nd degree burns are not something someone has to "man up" to. Football is a rough sport, but it doesn't involve burning yourself in anyway. Second of all, you really can't tell your coach "no." Especially if he is Mangina. That could have cost him a write up, or infraction that would have impacted his scholarship.

Alamohawk..

"I'm surprised anyone cares about this 6 year old accusation from a undisciplined screw up."

What does he do for a living now? What has he done to screw up? I want to know how you know that he deserved the burns.

bstew34864 5 years, 5 months ago

Some of the comments on this board are simply amazing. To fault the young man and blame him for the stupid stuff mangino did is unbelievable. You know, I never knew there were so many "tough" guys in Lawrence! As a former special forces guy it was always the guys who proclaimed how tough they were that always wimped out when the going got rough.

Listen tough guys, don't blame the kid. He didn't speak up before because he was afraid to lose his scholarship. Is that so hard to understand? What about the comment made by Joe Mortensen? A former team captain and all big 12 linebacker. He suffered through the same type of abuse from mangino and also did not speak out during his playing days. And he is in no way a disgruntled former player.

Face it, mangino is a bully who has been allowed to act a fool because he has won some football games. You can win some games being a bully, but eventually the chickens come home to roost. In this instance recruiting has suffered a.k.a the poor defense, forcing kids to play injured a.k.a. tod reesing, and treating people as children to include assitant coaches who then decide to leave, a.k.a bill young former defensive coach now at O-State.

In my opinion, Mangino should be fired for his game mismangement at the end of the Mizzou game! I mean grandma could have done a better job!

So, stop apologizing for Mangino. He is a bully who carries some serious demons around because of his weight. Don't think for a second that he doesn't hear or sense the absurdity his players feel when he tells them they need to make "weight". Or get in "better shape." This coming from a guy who can't run around the block. Leadership is foremost about credibility and character. And the foundation these two things are built on is authenticity. In other words "walking the talk." Mangino fails at this because he is not credible and therefore not an effective leader. I hope he takes some time off and get's help with his head and his weight.

go hawks..

b

Jean1183 5 years, 5 months ago

Waa, waa, waa........I got a blister on my hand.

Talk to someone who has done Air Assault school about blisters, you baby.

bstew34864 5 years, 5 months ago

P.S.

2nd Degree burns have nothing to do with "Manning up". Some of you haven't played a competitive sport in your life. Man up. Give me a break. Mangino is an overweight hypocritical bully who takes out his self-loathing on others. You guys who talk about "manning up" should instead "wise up" and think this thing through with your head and not your testosterone...

b

acg 5 years, 5 months ago

I made the man up comment, actually, and I'm a chick so testosterone had nothing to do with it. Football is a tough hard sport. I, personally, don't want to see it wussified like everything else in this country. I think the players are whining about some of this stuff but it's not like I'm surprised. In this age of "everyone gets a trophy", I'm not at all surprised that they're sniveling. Do I think Mangino is a fat, hateful prick with a bad attitude? Yeah, he probably is, but he's a coach and a lot of them are, as well as most bosses in the real world, so there you go.

KawHawk 5 years, 5 months ago

If a father did to his son what Mangino did to this kid - and the comparison is not invalid - that father would be arrested for abuse and assault. Forcing a kid to do what Kipp had to do isn't punishment, or toughening up or building character.....it's sadistic, abusive, sick behavior.

Repeat: sadistic, abusive, sick behavior.

No question, no doubt, no debate.

loloen 5 years, 5 months ago

bstew34864: Just wanted to say thank you for your post. It was everything I was thinking. Voice of reason in this sea of stupidity.

People don't report stuff due to fear of retribution.

Steve Bunch 5 years, 5 months ago

Has anyone checked Mangino's whereabouts the night Tiger Woods got beaten up? Connect the dots....

KawHawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Here's another thought: When it comes to recruiting, all other things equal, if you were a kid that big schools were "bidding" for, why would you go to a place where the coach is even rumored to be abusive ? Especially if there was another school, equal in all other respects, where these rumors weren't circulating ?

Jean1183 5 years, 5 months ago

What acg said.

Our country has become "too soft", too PC, too spoiled. Time to grow-up and get a pair.

And I am also female and don't have an abundance of testosterone!

lawrencechick 5 years, 5 months ago

Yikes, how can Mangino punish someone over a weigh-in, seems a little hypocritical even if he is just a coach.

kidicarus 5 years, 5 months ago

I agree with 9070811 and Bstew. ACG sounds like a miserable person from her last post.

yankeevet 5 years, 5 months ago

Former Kansas football players are speaking out about an investigation into allegations coach Mark Mangino has verbally abused or had inappropriate physical contact with players.

Former Jayhawks linebacker Mike Rivera, who plays for the Tennessee Titans, said Wednesday night he could not speak about the allegations. He plans to have a formal interview on the matter with representatives from Kansas in the next few days.

But six of Rivera's former teammates said they were not surprised by the investigation launched by athletic director Lew Perkins. Some relayed personal experiences with Mangino. And a player formerly coached by Mangino at Kansas State told ESPN's Shelley Smith that he had a run-in with him in 1996, when Mangino was the Wildcats' running backs coach.

Former Kansas wide receiver Raymond Brown, a senior last season, said Mangino would often "say personal, hurtful, embarrassing things in front of people."

[+] EnlargePeter G. Aiken/Getty Images Mark Mangino's methods are being investigated by Kansas.

Brown cited two examples. He said that once, his younger brother had been shot in the arm in St. Louis. Then came a game.

"I dropped a pass and [Mangino] was mad," Brown said. "And I said, 'Yes, sir. Yes, sir.' The yelling didn't bother me. But then he said, 'Shut up!' He said, 'If you don't shut up, I'm going to send you back to St. Louis so you can get shot with your homies.' I was irate. I wanted to hurt him, to be honest with you."

Brown said another teammate had confided in the team that his father was an alcoholic and the player dreamed of becoming a lawyer.

"One day, [Mangino] said in front of the entire team, 'Are you going to be a lawyer or do you want to become an alcoholic like your dad?' " Brown said.

Said former Kansas wide receiver Marcus Herford, also a senior last season: "I remember that. Very vividly. [Mangino] would take your personal business and he would attack you with it. There's nothing wrong with being a disciplinarian. But there is a way to handle your players and keep them motivated. His way was to demotivate you and make you feel as low as you can go."

Herford said he was not surprised by the allegation Mangino had poked senior linebacker Arist Wright in the chest at a walk-through prior to the Oct. 17 Colorado game.

"I remember one time he grabbed [former offensive lineman] Anthony Collins and Anthony threw his arm down," Herford said. "I mean, to put your hands on another man? There is no reason to ever do that. And Anthony was very angry. Mangino was screaming. And Anthony was like, 'You're not going to do me like that.' "

Said Brown: "I don't know if poking and grabbing is physical abuse. Sometimes Mangino maybe goes over the edge. I have seen him run up to a player and push a player. Sometimes he gets in your face and you feel like, 'OK, now you're in my bubble.'"

reserveseating 5 years, 5 months ago

Ok just another player trying to get his 5 minutes, bear crawling? cruel and unusual? I don't think so. Its because of wimps like this we finished last in the big 12 conference, grow a pair and quit trying to get in the spotlight, Mangino will be gone next year no need to bring down the University Football Program anymore.

reserveseating 5 years, 5 months ago

If he would have done what he was supposed to be done in the first place this would not have happened.

ferrislives 5 years, 5 months ago

I'd like to see Mangino do a bear crawl. That would be a sight.

notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Jean1183 (Anonymous) says…

"And I am also female and don't have an abundance of testosterone!"

So you, too, have never been on a football field and have absolutely no f-ing idea what it means to 'man up.'


You folks who are angry at these 'wussies' for speaking out are a real prize. You say Lew answers only to the big contributors among the alumni, and what are you guys doing? You're willing to ignore accusations of abuse and call these guys weak (I'd love to hear just one of you do so to their faces) because you want a coach who will win at any cost - just so you feel a little less embarassed walking down Mass St in your blue sweater and crimson scarf on a Fall Saturday afternoon. YOU are the same people, or at least the same kind of people, that you accuse Lew of catering to.

bstew34864 5 years, 5 months ago

ACG and Jean1183,

Ok, so as I assumed neither one of you have played competitive tackle football at the college level, but seem to know what it takes. That's the type of egotistical things some men say regarding childbirth. It's no big deal...a little pain..Well, from what I can tell it is a lot more to include about 9 months of basically being very uncomfortable and having the stress of being responsible for another life.

Look, don't buy into this notion of being tough and our society is becoming to P.C. Back in the day it was ok for parents to whup their kids with switches and razor sharp belts. Is it really bad that our society has mostly evolved from that type of punishment? It used to be ok that men considered their wives their property and as such could do what they wanted to them, including beat them and rape them. By the way this still happens in some fundalmentalist muslim countries. Is this a case of being to P.C. or to soft?

This is not the 18th century. This is the 21st century and even football players deserve a level of respect and humanity. Which by the way has nothing to do with toughness. Instead, what Mangino did was sadistic, stupid, and hateful. All of which has nothing to do with toughness.

I leave you with this point. In a lot of these cases where a coach is being ushered out by an administration the players rally around the coach, storm the athletic directors office and demands a hearing to plead their case as to why the coach should stay. Maybe I am wrong, but I haven't heard a peep about this happening for Mangino. As a matter of fact other than some perfunctionary comments from former players I haven't heard anything like a heartfelt statement of support from any of the current players or assistant coaches. Have you? How come Tod Reesing who is a senior not given a definitive statement about how much he loves playing for good ol' coach Mangino? Or their all big 12 wide receiver? Sure, Kerry Meir gave a luke warm statement of support, but that was more about his teammates and not Mangino.

So, please don't question the toughness of these kids because they have had the courage to finally stand up to a bully.

Finally, when we received training to fight in combat we were trained to be tough. We were made to run all day, stay awake most of the night, and subsist on very little food. Our black hats did their best to prepare us for the mental and physical stresses of combat. But, they didn't have to actually shoot us for us to get tough.

Likewise, football players can be given drills and other exercises to develop toughness. But, they don't need to be "given" 2nd degree burns, or made to play when they are injured in order to be made tough. This isn't developing toughness, this a fat ass bully being sadistic. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because he can. Which by the way is the absolute worst type of leader...

b

Richard Heckler 5 years, 5 months ago

Artificial Field Turf Versus Natural Grass - Sports Trauma Injury Profiles

Players on synthetic turf fields are more prone to injuries such as:

* Turf toe
* Muscle trauma
* Turf burn

The increased incidence of turf toe and muscle trauma relate to surface resistance on artificial field turf. A comparison of in-shoe foot loading patterns found that turf caused higher peak pressures in the central forefoot and lesser toes, while grass had higher pressures within the medial forefoot and lateral midfoot [Ford, et al. 2006].

Wearing proper footwear can be critical to avoiding injury. A study by Livesay, et al. of peak torque and rotational stiffness found the highest torques were created by a grass shoe-FieldTurf interaction [2006].

Lowest torques were obtained on natural grass fields. A proper combination of artificial turf shoes and synthetic grass led to intermediate torques.

The abrasive quality of the polypropylene fibers leads to more scrapes and minor injuries. While these injuries are not dangerous in isolation, turf burn may factor in serious MRSA infections.

Players on natural grass fields are more likely to sustain:

* Neural injuries
* Ligament injuries
* Debris injuries

Earlier research by Meyers and Barnhill examined the rate and severity of injuries on FieldTurf brand products versus natural grass [2004].

The 5-year prospective study tracking high school football injuries found that there were “higher incidences of 1- to 2-day time loss injuries, 22+ days time loss injuries, head and neural trauma, and ligament injuries were reported on natural grass.”

Another study by Naunheim, et al. found that the application setting matters [2004]. While the indoor artificial field was softer than the outdoor natural grass field, the outdoor artificial was the hardest of the three turfs studied and offered the least protection from head injury upon impact.

Early foam-based artificial turf products like Astroturf were particularly hard surfaces with increased injury risks. New field turf products like FieldTurf, Sprinturf, SmartGrass, and Sporturf show improved compression characteristics. At the time of installation, synthetic turf exhibits superior impact attenuation compared to natural grass. This explains the reduction in severe neural and ligament injuries.

A major concern with artificial turf is research showing compression characteristics changing over time. Hard and soft spots develop, with more compact areas measuring unfavorably when compared to natural grass fields. In fact, the hardest areas on an older artificial turf sporting field can be harder than older foam-based artificial turf surfaces [Naunheim et al. 2004]. This variability may put players at greater risk over time.

Read more: http://sportsinjuries.suite101.com/article.cfm/injuries_on_artificial_turf_versus_natural_grass#ixzz0YYgQBOYq

Ricky_Vaughn 5 years, 5 months ago

On one hand, I think it's kinda hokey that everyone's coming out of the woodwork to report seven year old incidents of "abuse" on Mangino's part. In that sense, it is a bit of a witch hunt. Why didn't these players say anything years ago? Or did they, only to be ignored?

On the other hand, Mangino's obviously rubbed some people the wrong way over the course of eight years. If he hadn't, they wouldn't all be lining up to "share their story".

BigDog 5 years, 5 months ago

merrill, Here are my study results ..... people who participate in athletic activities are more likely to sustain an injury.

Regardless of the surface there are possibilities of injuries. I don't believe there are too many athletes (or parents) out there that don't understand that they happen.

Please explain how he did bear crawls for this long and only sustained burns to one hand.

Jean1183 5 years, 5 months ago

notajayhawk is obviously a big man with a big pair. He knows and uses dirty words....oh, my! I'm really impressed by the likes of him.

bstew...no, I have not played competetive tackle football. I have, however, been in situations that require mental & physical toughness (and, yes, childbirth is one of those). That kind of thought process (you haven't done it, so you don't know anything about it), is pretty lame.

I am not saying I support what Mangino may or may not have done. However, I think this whole situation IS a witch hunt as Ricky_Vaughn has said. Why all of a sudden are these "tough" football players coming out with stuff like: "I was poked", "I got a blister", "He said my momma___" I mean geez.......all that is doing is making those "big, tough" football players look like wusses.

They may be "tough" but not very smart. If they have accusations, then it should be reported to the appropriate person....not the media.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 5 months ago

It seems that when a coach is having a slow season some fans are ready to dump a coach. When a coach is winning it's all a bowl of cherries no matter what.

Roy Williams got this same public treatment a few times in spite of the fact he provided excellent winning teams who were fun to watch.

It's even more interesting that this situation has gained national attention.

If all that is being said negative about Mangino why wasn't he confronted years ago and gone by now..... if those are legitimate points for removing a coach today?

Upper level mis - management?

poppygirl 5 years, 5 months ago

Please explain how he did bear crawls for this long and only sustained burns to one hand.

Explanation - Player forget to mention in his "story" that other hand was tied behind his back!

shotgun 5 years, 5 months ago

I think it is ironic that Mangino would punish someone for missing a "weigh in" LMAO!!!

BigAl 5 years, 5 months ago

sloppyscience (Anonymous) says… "Come on hawk fans, it's back to the cellar for us for the next few decades. Yay!!"

I've got some news for you, we don't have to wait. Mangino has us in the cellar NOW.

acg 5 years, 5 months ago

No I also never played college football but did spew life from my loins a few times so waaaaahhh, you have a blister on your hand? Poor wittle guy! Oh and kidicarus or whatever your name is, I'm not a miserable person at all, I just don't have vaginas all over my body. You've never heard of that disease? It's shared by vegetarians, PC sheeple and folks that think every kid should get a trophy because he tried hard. You are obviously one of those, and that's cool. Please don't procreate, though, we have enough of you as it is.

Ricky_Vaughn 5 years, 5 months ago

@ BigAl

It's finally come full-circle hasn't it? From rags to riches and back to rags.

9070811 5 years, 5 months ago

acg- Thanks for your sexist remark about vaginas all over your body. You're a real man!

1st degree burns tend to heal within a week. 2nd degree burns are quite extensive. They require much more then cold water and a&d ointment.

Anyways, I hope you don't procreate because I've had enough of you as it is.

exkumom 5 years, 5 months ago

I saw his verbal (mental) abuse, first hand, his first year at KU. My son endured being called a quitter and loser because he was rehabbing an injury and COULD NOT participate in drills, as he insisted. The trainer, Carol (at the time) and his dr had him on a strict physical therapy regimen, but Mangino chose to overlook their orders and require him to participate in activity that he was physically unable to do. My son gave everything for KU and I have not been able to root for this football team since Mangino treated him this way. I'm proud of the players that are speaking out - hard work, discipline and teamwork go hand in hand in all sports - but abuse (mental or physical) is unexcuseable. I am waiting for the day when the headlines read "Mangino is gone" - that way I can again cheer for the team that my son gave his blood, sweat and tears to.

bstew34864 5 years, 5 months ago

ACG and Jean1183,

Hey, you two. Are you twins? Let me give you this. Maybe, all of our points are correct. Maybe there are some players who are a little wimpy and treated with kit gloves. Maybe this is a Mangino witch hunt. Maybe it is somewhat unfair for these allegations to come out when the program is losing. But, guess what? This is the real world. The program is losing, the team greatly underachieved, and Mangino is a jerk. So, guess what? He is out and is being rightfully castigated. Making players play when they are injured by threatening their scholarships is against the rules as well as morally repugnant. He should be fired for that alone. And, by the way. Some of these players you call wimpy probably came from neighborhoods you know nothing about. That are so far removed from your "Hanna Montana", the O.C., Leave it to Beaver, reality that it's a joke for you to even comment on.

Obviously you two should try out for either, "Dog the Bounty Hunter", or "The Biker Babes of Compton, Cali"

As always...droppin science for the misinformed, under educated, and thos whose elevator doesn't go to the top floor..haha

b

KEITHMILES05 5 years, 5 months ago

If ANY player felt violated and did not report it to the proper people at the time it occured then said player is also at fault.

To come forth years later they are not being honest.

I stand by my assertion since KU did nothing about this stuff when it occured they are also liable.

None of this bodes well for the university, AD, coach, and players. Ultimately, we the fans will get sick enough to revolt and demand action.

bendover61 5 years, 5 months ago

Kipp doesn't quite remember the incident accurately, here is what happened: While Mangino was making his usual lunch of a dozen bear CLAWS we dared Kipp to steal one of them, Ol Kipp darted right past coach and grabbed one that just came out of the grease, got quite a burn on his hand. We took pictures and had a good laugh.

acg 5 years, 5 months ago

Uh, bstew, I never said Mangino shouldn't be fired. I could care less whether or not they fire Mangino. My only thoughts about him are he should try a few crunches or something. Maybe a few less empty carbs. My point was the players sound like they are whining about quite a lot of stuff. As far as tough neighborhoods to grow up in, I've lived in Detroit, Philly and Wilmington, Delaware (btw, was the murder capital of the northeast the three years I was there). Was born in D.C. Spent my life in neighborhoods that would chew u up and spit u out just for fun, so don't go talking smack when you don't know the person you're talking to. Thanks, and have a nice day.

mikerotch61 5 years, 5 months ago

You're such a horrible person Ben. First, this guy's been in school since 2002, and now you're making fun of him.

alamohawk 5 years, 5 months ago

9070811 (Anonymous) says…

2nd degree burns are not something someone has to “man up” to. Football is a rough sport, but it doesn't involve burning yourself in anyway. Second of all, you really can't tell your coach “no.” Especially if he is Mangina. That could have cost him a write up, or infraction that would have impacted his scholarship.

Alamohawk..

“I'm surprised anyone cares about this 6 year old accusation from a undisciplined screw up.”

What does he do for a living now? What has he done to screw up? I want to know how you know that he deserved the burns.

First, I believe what he does now is crawl out from under the rock he's been hiding under for the past six years to make accusations about the coach other than that I don't care what he does for a living. Second, he screwed up by making the decision to ignore the weigh-in that was required by him and other players. Lastly, in the words of Clint Eastwood when he played William Munny in Unforgiven... "deserves' got nothing to do with it."

bankboy119 5 years, 5 months ago

acg,

As to the helping clean up comment, yes, I have heard from a couple of parents of managers that this is true. It actually goes beyond that as well.

notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

9070811 (Anonymous) says…

"acg- Anyways, I hope you don't procreate because I've had enough of you as it is"

The difficult part is believing she found someone willing to help her accomplish this in the first place. Then again, considering the traits she apparently finds attractive in males ...


Jean1183 (Anonymous) says…

"notajayhawk is obviously a big man with a big pair. He knows and uses dirty words….oh, my! I'm really impressed by the likes of him."

Apparently you're much more impressed by the size of your own, sweetie, and believe me, it would seriously worry me if the likes of you were to be impressed by me.

I wonder if the product of your childbirth was of the double-x chromosome variety; one can only imagine the qualities you will teach her to seek out in potential mates - someone 'tough' enough to endure needlessly inflicted injury and stupid enough not to do anything about it. And I'm sure the child(ren)'s father must be so proud to know those are the qualities you respect in a male.


acg (Anonymous) says…

"No I also never played college football but did spew life from my loins a few times so waaaaahhh, you have a blister on your hand? Poor wittle guy!"

I could just repeat my response to your twin jean, but then, you probably wouldn't understand it, so let me put it in terms you might grasp:

'Grunt, grak, ook-ook ...'

BigDog 5 years, 5 months ago

I have talked to a person who used to work in the athletic department ..... he said from the time Mangino was hired he had the reputation of being tough and in your face. The athletic department knew about the various complaints around campus about Mangino and his temper tantrums. And some of the other accusations .... not sure about this one though.

Now Perkins is bringing this kind of stuff out publicly so he can fire Mangino and save the university from having to pay out the amount that they would have to pay Mangino based upon performance. If they fire him based upon wins/losses Perkins would have to pay Mangino in the neighborhood of $6 million. If Perkins can fire him based on these other items he will only pay him a much smaller amount.

BigAl 5 years, 5 months ago

BigDog, I think you have a good point. However, I really haven't seen or heard Perkins say anything about any of this. He really has been pretty quiet.

Some of you folks that want to dismiss the tough actions of the coach should also consider how Mangino mistreated the young parking attendant and his actions at the LHS football game. I think those two actions speak volumes about the man's character.

BigDog 5 years, 5 months ago

Exactly my point BigAl ..... the university athletic department knew about these events also and did nothing about them that is publicly known.

These kinds of articles now are just damaging the reputation of the university and will make it harder to recruit there. Given the stuff that is being said in the press would you send your son there or if you are a high school football coach would you advise a kid to go there with this all going on ... not likely

Jeff Kilgore 5 years, 5 months ago

The problem with this whole issue at least in my opinion, is that fans are divided into two camps:

In one are the "tough guys" Yeah, kid yer leg's broke, but I'll reset it and you get back in there just like I did when I lost my arm and tackled players with my face (without a facemask). These guys crack me up. I'll bet they're a whole lot of fun to hang out with. Football is war. Not to be enjoyed. Win at all costs. Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. That kind of mentality, a lack thereof.

I'm in the other. We know football is tough and accept that fact. I played with sprained knees in high school, but if you make players suffer second-degree burns, ignore the situation, and never apologize, that's just plain stupid. I know that coaches love blind loyalty, but that can lead you off a cliff. If this is what it takes to go to bowl games, it isn't worth it. There's a thing called human dignity. We're not animals, and our kids shouldn't come to a university and be treated this way.

Of course Mgo has good qualities as well, but he can't be so dumb to think this kind of crap is acceptable. In the sands of Iraq, surely. On the turf of Lawrence, KS, no.

leedavid 5 years, 5 months ago

Still can't find anyone explain how do you do bear crawls on all fours and only burn one hand? When we did them is was on all fours. And why wait so many years to complain about it? All seems odd to me.

funinsun1 5 years, 5 months ago

Mangino may not be a perfect coach - none of them are. But lets look at the real issue - these "things" were there in years past. If KU was 10-2 this year none of this would be up for discussion. Because we had a high school defense this year and were at the bottom of the North this is all a problem. We are going to fire a coach that has brought KU football to somewhere I never thought would happen.

The real problem is BOWEN - FIRE HIM!!!!! If he would have done his job none of this would have been an issue.

camper 5 years, 5 months ago

Leedavid, one explanation could be that if he were right handed (for instance) it would be natural for him to apply more pressure on his stronger arm.

I'm with bewstew on this one. The "tough" guys on this page remind me of teamates who tried Football, couldn't handle two a day practices and quit. I know the type. Couldn't handle high school ball but then became the biggest college football fanatics you've ever seen. In other words, they are the pep rally crowd who don't really know what they are talking about.

I'm not buying into this football is life thing either. Sometimes in life, you need to question authority figures if they are grossly negligent or abusive in their duties. Sometimes it is the stronger man who stands up against this. If on the other hand all you do is try to please a sadistic coach (not saying Mangino is) you might just continue to to this in life with your bosses, family, and friends. Discipline is good, following orders is good. But i suppose one must also take ones own initiative and make rational decisions on your own.

alamohawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Lets just call it like it is. Kansas Football has been a Division II program for the 45 years that I've lived in Lawrence. Sure they rose up maybe once every 5 or 6 years and fielded an average team that made it to a Bowl Game. While I was involved with the KU Athletic system there was always a "losers" mentality around the Football Program. They attracted players that came here because they didn't have anywhere else to go. Coach Mangino used tactics that tried to drive out that mentality. If you want a winning program you can't let undisciplined players skip their responsibilities like weigh-ins or returning for off season drills when your suppose to. Yes these tactics were out of line and beyond what may have been appropriate but am I crazy to believe that other SEC, Big 10, PAC 10 and Big 12 football coaches don't employ the same tactics? If not, why have they or any other Coaches active or retired not come out against his tactics and said we don't do that at my school or program? I am not a "tough guy" but when a coach told me to do something from Junior High to College I did it. I find it hard to give support to players that didn't follow the rules.

BradWesley 5 years, 5 months ago

Mangino has been the best thing for KU Football in well of 40 years. More bowl games, more bowl wins, better athletes, more TV games, better results, better recruits! Head Coaches get much credit when all is great and lots of blame when things do not go great. This unfortunate season has give Lew a reason to open up his witch hunt. True KU Football fans respect what Mangino has done for KU. 23 months ago he is Coach of The Year and now he is Dirt? I don't buy it. Football is a tough sport, mentally & physically. Guess what - so is life after football. AD could have fired him months or years ago but didn't - Why not? Because KU was winning enough to fill the stadium and making $$. Perkins put up with it then, now he wont. maybe he should be fired too. I like Mangino, I will miss Mangino. I imagine only about 17,000 other fans agree with me because that is what the average attendance has been at KU games before Mangino. uh, oh - just saw Bill Self yelling at a player - maybe there will be an investigation

lounger 5 years, 5 months ago

Very Creepy! Ive NEVER had a comment taken off the LJW Post a comment!! I Guess you cannot criticize K. U. athletics in this town!!!

Ace_Ventura 5 years, 5 months ago

Mangino was mean to me when I met him. He shook my hand and had a firm grip. I still have blisters to prove it. I am still upset. Now I will go to my room and curl in a ball and cry.

hbjayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

Hey Kipp . . . I live in California too. I would like to beat the crap out of you on Sunday. Come to the UCLA game, section 308, row 7 seat 12 and find me. I am 6'4, 245 with a smoking hot girlfriend. As a KU grad, I want her to see what happens to morons who can't handle a bear crawl on astroplay--the turf we played on. You are a disgrace for talking to the LJWorld. Your future career opportunities will suffer as a blasphemous whistleblower. Come see me Sunday . . .preferably with 5 min remaining in the second half. I would love to meet you.

JoRight 5 years, 5 months ago

These reports are getting a bit ridiculous. The dude did bear crawls & got a blister, who cares.

An internal HR review should be happening separately in meeting all the coaches, players & others individually & confidentially. If a consensus comes out of that, then so be it. And I imagine one would.

JoRight 5 years, 5 months ago

hbjayhawk:

Yea bro! You tell him! pops collar, crushes a jaeger bomb & chases it w/ a 6 hour energy

hbjayhawk in real life: http://ndnforum.com/blogs//media/blogs/sports/Gilmore.jpg

Jay_lo 5 years, 5 months ago

camper (Anonymous) says…

"Leedavid, one explanation could be that if he were right handed (for instance) it would be natural for him to apply more pressure on his stronger arm."

Not commenting on the validity of the allegation, just the comment by camper.

Try bear crawling across your living room floor. When you are bent over forward like that, and your hands come down one at a time, all your weight is on whichever hand is down.

You can't put more pressure on one than you can on the other. Now however if one arm is stronger you might be able to support yourself on that arm for just a split second longer each time and allow that hand to slide forward somewhat.

If you did that all the way across the field, you would probably have developed a lot more friction to that hand in comparison to the other.

Mangino was a good hire at the time, but he was not a Lew Perkins hire. Both Mangino and Perkins have done a lot for athletics at KU. There weren't too many sellouts in the stadium before Mangino.

As long as Mangino was moving the program in the right direction, a lot was tolerated. But as more Phat jokes came out, the more he walked the tightrope. Ha, ha, (sorry, just had a picture come to mind of a large person on a tightrope with a little pink umbrella and matching leotard.)

I think that the extrodinarily handsome Lew began to wonder if an obese coach was a less than ideal image for the school.

When a super promising football season failed to live up to its expectations, and with possibly the greatest crop of seniors to have played on their way out, I think he went into a "limit the damage" mode.

He created a new position, and brought in someone to gather all they could on Mangino so that he could get rid of a coach that he now considered a liability, while at the same time saving any or all of a 6 million dollar buyout, by finding reason as per Mangino's contract, and could keep his hands fairly clean by letting someone else handle the actual investigation.

He brought the Chancellor on board via a 40 million dollar gift to academics by way of new box seating plans for the stadium.

As an atheletic director, Perkins is very good at his job. As a coach, Mangino is very good at his. Both could be described as persons who would do whatever is necessary, at times, to get the results that they desire.

daddax98 5 years, 5 months ago

hbjayhawk = wet turd but at least you have the girl friend thing going for you

pace 5 years, 5 months ago

What has sports come to, crazed dogs. When the man confirms that Mangino is no more than a cur and a liar, the fans defend him. Maybe the ku sports should just close down until adults are in charge, not criminals. Get rid of both Mangino and Perkins. Clean up the cess pool, pump the septic system. I am ashamed that criminal charges aren't being filed, ashamed that it is even questioned that we don't can the dog.

pace 5 years, 5 months ago

Look at the types defending mangino. Whistle blowing is honorable. Trash threatening someone who comes forward with information, information that does matter, it matters to people who have honor. This is the low life trash behavior one attracts by running a program that is trashy.

notajayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

hbjayhawk (Anonymous) says…

"Come to the UCLA game, section 308, row 7 seat 12 and find me. I am 6'4, 245 with a smoking hot girlfriend."

Let me guess. She's blonde.

And not very bright.

dontcallmedan 5 years, 5 months ago

Isn't hbjathawk's threats of physical violence a violation of the usage agreement?

KawHawk 5 years, 5 months ago

hbjayhawk (Anonymous) says…

“Come to the UCLA game, section 308, row 7 seat 12 and find me. I am 6'4, 245 with a smoking hot girlfriend.”

Let me guess. She's blonde.

And not very bright.

And inflatable....

bad_dog 5 years, 5 months ago

Section 308? Better pack your oxygen Cory-that's definitely a nosebleed seat.

http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/ucla/graphics/mbb_pauleymap_bw-08.gif

Here's an interesting article reflecting Mangino's public view of Kipp, circa 2003:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20020820/ai_n11785374/

"I like the intensity that Kipp adds to our defense," Mangino said. "He's a very intense, rugged guy, just a hard-nosed player."

Yep, it sounds like Mangino saw him as a de-motivated loser.

As for Kipp's perspective on KU:

"While KU fans can expect to see plenty of new faces on the line, Kipp said he wasn't worried about a lack of experience.

"I think it's a positive," he said. "It's definitely a motivation. With all the guys we have going against each other, we all have different styles of playing, we all have different styles and different moves, so I think we're going to make each other better. We're going to motivate each other, keep going higher and higher."

Given Kipp's height/weight were listed at 6'-4" (or 5) and 255#, I don't think you've exactly got a walkover on your hands hbjay. It would be a real shame for you, your gf and all Jayhawks should Kipp decide to take you up on your offer Sunday.

hbjayhawk 5 years, 5 months ago

bad_dog ... your correct, it is a nosebleed seat . . . but also in the KU fan section. Those seats were selected so we can understand each other (in case you didn't know Spanish is the dominant language at UCLA). If and when Kipp has the nerve to show up, it will turn into a front row seat to an MMA match. It will certainly be more entertaining than the 40+ pt beat down we will put on the lowly Bruins.

bad_dog 5 years, 5 months ago

Why drag this issue into a Jayhawk basketball game, hb? Hasn't the image of KU athletics already been sullied enough by fighting for you? You don't have the right to grind your axe at the expense and embarrasment of K.U. Nation. And who can say what the opinion of any other Hawk fans in attendance might be. What will you do if other other Hawk fans in attendance have his back, start a riot? Kick everyone's butt MMA style?

If you have a problem with Kipp, why not look him up yourself on your own time and take it up outside the parameters of an NCAA event with half the country watching.

You are already on the record for threatening to commit a battery. The internet never forgets and should you act upon your threats this blog will more than likely be admitted as evidence of your intent to commit a crime.

Joe Mortensen is from California as well. Likewise, he's made some derogatory comments about his treatment by Mangino. Why aren't you calling for a piece of him too?

Dan Matthews 5 years, 5 months ago

Uh-oh. Rumor has it that the university will have a press conference at 4:00. Looks like Mangino goes bye-bye...

midgetmissile19 5 years, 5 months ago

as a currrent football player (not nearly the same prestige as KU) i have done hundreds of yards of "bear crawls" throughout my career. i may be no expert on how to do them, but you pick them up and set them down. the hand isnt on the ground for more than a second at the most. how many yards of "bear crawls" did he do to get this "burn" from the turf. he must have been on his hands for a while or even scraping them along the ground. but no matter Mangino resigned so its practically a mute point.

camper 5 years, 5 months ago

The key to doing bearcrawls is try and shift most of the pressure onto your legs, and use your arms at the "bear" minimum.

I suspect that the reason these players are coming out of the woodworks now is because they have been away from the game for a while and are reflecting back on some of the stuff endured. Some of it surely positive character building....some of it pure nonsense. Most players probably have certain amounts of respect, but also some resentment toward their old coaches.

If I saw some of my old coaches I'd be glad to shake their hand, but would also ask them to explain a few things to me. Like one coach who administered an upercut to my torso as I was walking into the locker room....totally unexpected and I had no time to prepare. Or the coach who probably said the cruelest thing in the world to me that I will not repeat on this blog. But these same guys showed confidence in me and started me. Weird stuff as I look back on it now.

HogJiver 5 years, 5 months ago

Come on, tell the truth. The coach sat on his hand.

ksdivakat 5 years, 5 months ago

Coach is gone and now KU Football can go back to sucking at best!

pace 5 years, 5 months ago

I appreciated someone coming forward. The idea that someone who speaks up is a squealer and no one likes that, is patently wrong. It is a juvenile attitude and perhaps low to want wrongs to be kept quiet, for abuse to be hidden. Keeping quiet is a cowards answer. I like people who face thing and are honest. I don't like don't tell, hide, and be one of the bad boys all that is for children, children who weren't well raised.

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