Archive for Saturday, August 29, 2009

Poll: More Americans identify as anti-abortion

August 29, 2009

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A Gallup poll found for the first time that a majority of Americans identify themselves as pro-life.

A May survey, just released, asked the question: With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?

In 1995, 33 percent of respondents identified themselves as pro-life and 56 percent as pro-choice. But in May, 51 percent said they were pro-life and 42 percent, pro-choice.

Just a year ago, 50 percent of Americans surveyed identified themselves as pro-choice 44 percent as pro-life.

Comments

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 8 months ago

Whoever wrote this headline for the LJW needs to be SEVERELY chastised. There is a VAST difference between being "prolife" and being "antibortion". Many, many people who are prochoice are antiabortion and work very hard through educational efforts to reduce the number of abortions performed yet continue to believe that for the sake of women's health abortion should continue to be safe and legal. Indeed, depending on how this poll was worded the results themselves can be and probably are very skewed. Either way I want the headline corrected or I will directly call the JW to complain.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Pro life is kind of bogus when Erik Prince, a pro lifer like GW, finds $wealth in killing people with his merry band of mercenaries formerly known as Blackwater,Inc. GW and the other pro lifer Cheney have killed plenty of pregnant women,moms,children and fathers in Iraq,Pakistan,Afghanistan,Syria and who knows where else. All for control of oil.

There are a lot children living in pro choice homes. Pro choice is pro family.

Being so called pro -lifer/anti abortion does not stop pregnacy happening in these homes. Sarah Palin is one most obvious example. Perhaps Ms. Palin should have spent more time at home. That probably would not have stopped those raging hormones of teens.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Pro Choice people never claimed to be pro abortion.

Yet Pro lifers kill thousands of innocent people every day in the mideast which began in earnest under Reagan/Bush,then Bush/Quale then Bush/Cheney. Pro life depends on what?

BrianR 5 years, 8 months ago

I doubt it. Wonder what church they polled?

Merril, It's actually Xe Services LLC, if you want Blackwater, you're going to have to go back to the original source, The Doobie Brothers.

barrypenders (Anonymous) says… "Thanks for clarifying the issue merrill. I sympathize with your progressive idea at keeping unwanted humans at bay."

Barry, why do you hate Arabs?

rbwaa 5 years, 8 months ago

I agree with cait48, I am prochoice and antiabortion. I am also anti-war, anti-death penalty, and anti-conservative control of health care, which if improved would result in a higher birth survival rate.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

I've said it before... it was... is... only a matter of time....

beatrice 5 years, 8 months ago

Laws are in place to protect the minority, not just the majority. Laws protect those seeking a choice.

Mixolydian 5 years, 8 months ago

BrianR (Anonymous) says… I doubt it. Wonder what church they polled?

==============================

Haha!

You sound like the young intern on McGovern's campaign staff in 1972..."I can't believe Nixon won...I don't know anyone who voted for him."

funkdog1 5 years, 8 months ago

cait48: The JW is merely following the Associated Press handbook, which calls for the use of the term "anti-abortion" instead of "pro-life".

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"Laws are in place to protect the minority, not just the majority. Laws protect those seeking a choice."

Abortion laws fail to protect the "minority" of conceived lives which are ended through abortion.

The notion of "choice" is ill-conceived and misplaced in this debate. It is not "choice" which is being preserved; it is liberty--the liberty to end the life of a conceived human being. ("Liberty," preserved not through the execution of an aggressor, but through the execution of the helpless.)

Pro-choice? I say, "Absolutely! Let women choose." And if a woman chooses to engage in behavior which could result in conception--if only probabilistically so--then let her honor the consequences of her "choice." (The majority of abortions are performed, simply put, to preserve lifestyles, so pleeeeease spare us the "raped little girls" comeback.)

One has to wonder why the so-called "pro-choice" statistic is as high as it is, in light of the evolving moral argument, the now common understanding of human conception and development, and graphic imagery of the procedure readily available on the Internet.

Some "pro-choice" proponents, I must suppose, are too removed from the realities of abortion to truly appreciate the issues being debated--others too self-focused and self-indulgent (or otherwise morally bankrupt) to appreciate the moral argument.

Other "pro-choice" proponents may simply be too close to that reality. While, undoubtably, many former abortion recipients must now firmly fall within a pro-life camp (because of that horrific experience) I can't help but wonder whether a large part of the "pro-choice" contingent consists of those who either have undergone abortion or are close to someone who has, their stance amounting to some misguided ego defense in the form of legitimization through legalization.

Then, of course, there are the pigs, selfishly seeking self-gratification at any cost. And, of course, they are numbered among the men whom abortion truly serves.

(BTW, I've discussed abortion with former recipients of the procedure, now pro-life. The overwhelming sense conveyed of that former experience is not one of "choice," but rather of personal/societal coercion to participate in an accepted, if not expected, practice... again, to preserve a lifestyle or to avoid stigmatization.)

puddleglum 5 years, 8 months ago

of course they are....killing is illegal.

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… Pro-choice? I say, “Absolutely! Let women choose.” And if a woman chooses to engage in behavior which could result in conception—if only probabilistically so—then let her honor the consequences of her “choice.” (The majority of abortions are performed, simply put, to preserve lifestyles, so pleeeeease spare us the “raped little girls” comeback.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yup, just about the correct attitude from the men in power in the pro-life movement. Sex is for procreation only. Pregnancy is a punishment for being a naughty girl, right? And we don't want to hear about the raped little girls, now would we? It is best to sweep those things under the rug, right? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…While, undoubtably, many former abortion recipients must now firmly fall within a pro-life camp (because of that horrific experience) I can't help but wonder whether a large part of the “pro-choice” contingent consists of those who either have undergone abortion or are close to someone who has, their stance amounting to some misguided ego defense in the form of legitimization through legalization. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Really? I'd like to see some evidence to back that statement of many former abortion recipients falling firmly within a pro-life camp. And some actual evidence, not "I talked to a couple of women and they regret what happened" kind of thing.

I especially like the part where you completely trivialize the experiences of women (or their loved ones who supported their choice) who have gone through an abortion as having some misguided ego defense because they believe in choice. That certainly lends credibility and legitimacy to your argument.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

Katara: "Yup, just about the correct attitude from the men in power in the pro-life movement. Sex is for procreation only. Pregnancy is a punishment for being a naughty girl, right? And we don't want to hear about the raped little girls, now would we? It is best to sweep those things under the rug, right?"

(Whether or not you appreciate the fact) it is men who primarily are served by abortion.

Sex is not for procreation only, and pregnancy is not a punishment.... I've enjoyed a healthy sex life throughout my adulthood, understanding the consequences, and avoiding pregnancy. I am not planning on having more children, but were my significant other and I to become pregnant, we would have the child. We certainly would not abort it.

The point about "raped little girls" is not to sweep anything under a rug. (Indeed, abortion would seem to accomplish that.) Abortion proponents often present extreme and incredibly infrequent incidents to justify what amounts, largely, to a practice of disposing of viable human beings in order to preserve lifestyles. Period.

Katara: "I especially like the part where you completely trivialize the experiences of women... who have gone through an abortion... because they believe in choice."

Again, they do not believe in "choice." They expect (or are expected) to avoid responsibility for the consequences of their actions. I am not "trivializing" the experiences of women. If you reread my closing remark, you will see that I am validating an experience which, incidentally, flies in the face of abortion rhetoric.

BTW, Katara, what is it that abortion trivializes? (Rhetorical question.)

KS 5 years, 8 months ago

Only those that can't think are anti-life.

jonas_opines 5 years, 8 months ago

KS (Anonymous) says…

Only those that can't think use "anti-life."

/Fixed that for you.

BrianR 5 years, 8 months ago

"You sound like the young intern on McGovern's campaign staff in 1972…”I can't believe Nixon won…I don't know anyone who voted for him.”"

Was that you? Were you even alive in 1972?

rbwaa 5 years, 8 months ago

i believe "pro-life" should always be in quotations because most people who claim to be "pro-life" are also pro-war, pro-death penality and pro "i couldn't care less what happens to the baby after it is born"

headdoctor 5 years, 8 months ago

FACT: People can and do become pregnant using various forms of birth control.

Fact: There are reasons for abortion beyond another form of birth control.

Fact: There are pros and cons to abortion and anti-abortion. Put your big boy and big girl pants on and deal with it.

Fact: People who always take the moral high ground even when they are in the gutter fighting to get the curb are very irritating. Especially the anti-abortion women who are cursing the Doctor as they are preparing for their own abortion.

Want to eliminate or reduce abortions? I suggest all you anti people pony up your butts to the nearest adoption clinic and take on as many children as you can. Or if you want, lets just fire up the Orphan Trains again. I have no doubt that many of you anti-abortion people will not like the above suggestions either because you would rather run your mouth than be part of the solution.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 8 months ago

TRA I object highly to being called "morally bankrupt" because I am pro-choice. I'm sure there are women that have regretted aborting after the procedure. I'm also just as sure that there are women who are grateful. These are personal decisions and people make mistakes. That doesn't mean it's an excuse to vacate the law. The women who regret it made that choice and need to take personal responsibility for it, not deny that choice to other women in retaliation for their mistake. I may be "morally bankrupt" to you. I find you just as "morally bankrupt" in your crass disregard for the lives and health of living women in support of what is at most, potential life.

Eileen Jones 5 years, 8 months ago

Most Americans are anti abortion. Nearly everybody.

Also most Americans do not think making it illegal is the way to avoid it.

Obama is the first president who has had the courage and wisdom to talk plainly about the problems that lead to abortion, and vow to do something about them: poverty, lack of health care, lack of education, joblessness.

And Obama is the only president who has mentioned the men. All the right-wing pundits act as if these were virgin conceptions.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

(Liberty: "The only question is whether the fetus is to be considered alive or not.")

cait48: "TRA I object highly to being called “morally bankrupt” because I am pro-choice.... I find you just as “morally bankrupt” in your crass disregard for the lives and health of living women in support of what is at most, potential life."

Geez, cait, maybe you're just highly objectionable. Here, I'll simplify my comment for you by trimming some of the intervening words and adding CAPS for emphasis...

SOME "pro-choice" proponents, I must SUPPOSE, are too removed... OTHERS... morally bankrupt....

So, where exactly did I call YOU "morally bankrupt?"

Regarding "some/others," I recall a conversation with an acquaintance, years ago, following her attendance of a high school class reunion. Reportedly, some of her former classmates had engaged in a conversation involving the worst sort of one-up(wo)manship, each effectively "bragging" about how many abortions they had had. Morally bankrupt? You make the call.

As far as YOU are concerned, one would hope that someone who feels competent to render judgment about the value of life would be able to logically extract meaning from a sentence or be able to discern that a developing human being is indeed "alive."

That said, no hard feelings about that unpleasantness you directed at me. So nice that you made it through that precarious first (second? third?) trimester, so that we could have this chat.

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

(Whether or not you appreciate the fact) it is men who primarily are served by abortion.

and

Again, they do not believe in “choice.” They expect (or are expected) to avoid responsibility for the consequences of their actions. I am not “trivializing” the experiences of women. If you reread my closing remark, you will see that I am validating an experience which, incidentally, flies in the face of abortion rhetoric. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wow! I don't think you really see how sexist your statements/or beliefs are. Women are the perfect vessel for pregnancy and are always happy to do their "biological duty" if it weren't for the evil men who make them have abortions. Or if it weren't for society who pressures them to make the choice. I had no idea women were unable of making independent decisions. Thanks for clearing that up! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… Sex is not for procreation only, and pregnancy is not a punishment…. I've enjoyed a healthy sex life throughout my adulthood, understanding the consequences, and avoiding pregnancy. I am not planning on having more children, but were my significant other and I to become pregnant, we would have the child. We certainly would not abort it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is nice to see that you are speaking for your SO here for all situations. And it is nice to see that you wouldn't abort (in particular since you would not be the one carrying the pregnancy). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… The point about “raped little girls” is not to sweep anything under a rug. (Indeed, abortion would seem to accomplish that.) Abortion proponents often present extreme and incredibly infrequent incidents to justify what amounts, largely, to a practice of disposing of viable human beings in order to preserve lifestyles. Period. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I also had no idea that viability occurred in the 1st trimester or that all pregnancies contained a viable fetus. Perhaps you should examine your factually incorrect rhetoric before engaging in a discussion that relies on factually correct information. Or are you just trying to dumb it down for us gals?

I am also amazed that people seem to believe that abortion sweeps rape under the rug. This seems to fall along the incredibly ignorant charges that Kline against Tiller, again with more of the biological ignorance.

I am interested in your explanation as to how that does sweep things under the rug. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… BTW, Katara, what is it that abortion trivializes? (Rhetorical question.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here's your rhetorical answer...it depends on your beliefs and not everyone shares the same ones.

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… Regarding “some/others,” I recall a conversation with an acquaintance, years ago, following her attendance of a high school class reunion. Reportedly, some of her former classmates had engaged in a conversation involving the worst sort of one-up(wo)manship, each effectively “bragging” about how many abortions they had had. Morally bankrupt? You make the call.

and

(BTW, I've discussed abortion with former recipients of the procedure, now pro-life. The overwhelming sense conveyed of that former experience is not one of “choice,” but rather of personal/societal coercion to participate in an accepted, if not expected, practice… again, to preserve a lifestyle or to avoid stigmatization.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I call shenanigans.

You seem to "know" and "talk" with a lot of women who are more than willing to discuss their abortion experiences with a man that is not related to it.

But what should we expect? You have no issue trivializing women who have had abortions and still continue to be pro-choice.

Perhaps you hang regularly with these women? http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

staff04 5 years, 8 months ago

"(The majority of abortions are performed, simply put, to preserve lifestyles, so pleeeeease spare us the “raped little girls” comeback.)"

Argument: FAIL


"Do they think we should work on ridding the environment of agents which “abort” babies or cause them to have to be aborted because their development becomes so dysfunctional that the fetus becomes unviable and therefore, a threat to the mother?"

C'mon porch, you and I both know they'd rather the mother die than concede even the most obvious point...

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

Katara: "I had no idea women were unable of making independent decisions. Thanks for clearing that up!"

Are "independent" decisions ever made (by men or by women)?

Katara: "I also had no idea that viability occurred in the 1st trimester...."

Given a sufficiently supportive environment and absence of mortal circumstance, ALL humans are viable. This is true for the conceived neo-human, the developing embryo, you, me....

Katara: "... Or are you just trying to dumb it down for us gals?"

You don't seem to need any help from me, in that regard.

Katara: "I am also amazed that people seem to believe that abortion sweeps rape under the rug....I am interested in your explanation as to how that does sweep things under the rug."

Abortion sweeps conception under the rug. And responsibility.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

Katara: "I call shenanigans. You seem to “know” and “talk” with a lot of women who are more than willing to discuss their abortion experiences with a man that is not related to it."

I've had the experiences I've shared.

Katara: "But what should we expect? You have no issue trivializing women who have had abortions and still continue to be pro-choice."

It is you who trivialize, with your cookie-cutter rhetoric surrounding men, women, the value of life and the denial thereof.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

tange: “(The majority of abortions are performed, simply put, to preserve lifestyles, so pleeeeease spare us the “raped little girls” comeback.)”

staff04: "Argument: FAIL"

Rebuttal: FAIL

,;-)

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

So tangential_reasoners_anonymous can't back up anything that he says other than that is what he believes and thus trivializes everyone else who has any actual experiences with abortion.

I won't hold my breath for you actually backing up any of your statements with facts. Apparently the massive amounts of hearsay and your experiences are the only sufficient ways for others to conduct their lives.

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says… Given a sufficiently supportive environment and absence of mortal circumstance, ALL humans are viable. This is true for the conceived neo-human, the developing embryo, you, me…. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Looooove the qualifiers! What a wonderful way to say in a perfect world, everything is perfect.

Google "stone baby" and tell us about your perfect world of pregnancies.

Google "ectopic pregnancies" and tell us about your perfect world.

Google "anencephaly" and tell us about your perfect world.

Google "toxemia" and tell us about your perfect world.

Google "molar pregnancy" and tell us about your perfect world.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

“Given a sufficiently supportive environment and absence of mortal circumstance, ALL humans are viable. This is true for the conceived neo-human, the developing embryo, you, me….” –- tangential_reasoners_anonymous

"(laughter) That has as much truth as “The world is flat and you'll fall off the edge if you go East far enough.” (laughter) I bet tangential_reasoners_anonymous doesn't know that God aborts more “conceived neo-humans” than any human. (laughter) moron... moron (laughter)"

Ah, (laughter) and name-calling. Impressive display, that. Simply put, you can no more survive outside the fragile nexus which sustains you than can the unborn. All humans have that in common. And you're right, the world is imperfect, and mortals perish due to so-called "acts of God." The difference is when humans perish at the hands of other humans. Therein lies the moral dimension. An imperfect world does not justify immoral actions.

storm 5 years, 8 months ago

Anyone remember the misplaced outrage at the Army over Pagan with two children in tow reporting for duty? The public was like "oh poor mother, bad army" crap but nothing was said about the father maybe just trying to get another job to accomodate the family. Wah, wah. She had a contract with the Army knowing possible implications. Yet the media/public let the father off the hook, basically. If the media had spun this story correctly, and others like it then just perhaps, the folks with sperm would be RESPONSIBLE, including the sperm-donor of Octomom's eight babies. So basically once the roles of male and female are acknowledged for conception, then maybe we all can be anti-choice. Until then, Americans can only be BOTH pro-life and pro-choice. Gentlemen, wear your condoms so that you can have a say in this matter.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"You made the claim that “All humans are viable”. In the context of pregnancy, they are not. You have a lot of education to gain, some of which Katara and myself started.... you might want to contemplate whether God is committing immoral acts by allowing them."

Ahem... “Given a sufficiently supportive environment AND absence of mortal circumstance, ALL humans are viable." (Mortal circumstances would include "acts of God" and acts of man, e.g., abortion--and, again, it is the acts of man which fall within the moral sphere. You may wish to pursue the theological question, but, frankly, it appears to be conceptually inconsistent, i.e., poorly framed.)

When the "teachers" can't read, or choose to only selectively read, then the lesson suffers, does it not?

BigPrune 5 years, 8 months ago

All this abortion debate makes me wonder....I wonder how many babies have been placed in good homes by Planned Parenthood, or should I just call them for who they are, Planned Non-Parenthood? The name Planned Parenthood is really quite deceptive, more like false advertising. Someone should sue them to change their name.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

Sorry... I must have nodded off while you were talking. Again, apologies. But I'm back now. I've pulled on my big boy pants, ponied up my butt, and made my way back to the Orphaned-Train-of-Thought station for another Facts-o-Plenty injection. And, please, spare me no Acts-o-God web links. I'm quite sure that, under your able tutelage, my edification is imminent. (Hey, I'm even playing your theme song in the background...)

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"You're now claiming that your argument was “All humans are viable unless they die”, is this not correct? That's stupid.... Claiming I “didn't read” or “didn't understand you” attacks your own argument through your own abandonment of it."

Ahem, redux… “Given a sufficiently supportive environment AND absence of mortal circumstance, ALL humans are viable.”

OK... you're getting there... you now have two of three... progress... the final piece is that "sufficiently supportive environment" thang. This is true of all humans at every stage of development (which, BTW, begins at conception, but, given our progress thus far, that discussion is probably far beyond the scope of this exchange).

But, to cut to the chase, let me rephrase, using your words (with which you seem to be quite pleased), in order to clarify. (Please pardon my qualifying parentheticals.)...

“(Given a sufficiently supportive environment, and in the absence of Act-o-God-variety mortal circumstance) All humans are viable unless they [are killed].”

Recess!

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"I also notice you ducked my question on God's role in miscarriages but, if I were in your shoes, I would avoid it too. Attempting to introduce some medieval cosmology of a moral sphere in which God is absent is on very shaky theological grounds but it was probably the best you could think of on short notice."

(I didn't think of any of the above, on long or short notice. You've been having this conversation with yourself since you raised the topic.)

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

...

...

Hello?

Helllllllloooo?

Are you there?

(egad, must have been a late-term abortion; I hate it when that happens)

Dan Eyler 5 years, 8 months ago

Has anyone heard from the Obama Administration on the war in Afghanistan. He has increased our troops there by double. 70,000 Americans GI's in Afghanistan killing men women and children. I thought the Obama and Biden team were against war but more troops than ever are in Afghanistan killing babies and children. Where did the protesters go? I guess all the protesters really didn't care about the troops at all. It was all about Bush. If Bush is killing Afghans it is a crime but if Obama and Biden are killing babies its okay. The Obama war in Afghanistan is killing all those troops and all those babies but all is good because Bush is gone the war protests are over but nothing has changed. Obama and Biden just killing those babies. Obviously not pro life!

Jimo 5 years, 8 months ago

Why run this story about a May Gallup poll when there is an August Gallup poll with the same question (and with different results)?

Why make a comparison to 1995, which, like the May 2009 poll, was a blip in an otherwise static year-after-year result of 50% "pro-choice" and 45% "pro-life"? The implication is one of movement where none exists?

Mr. Editor, you have some explaining to do.

Ronda Miller 5 years, 8 months ago

"It is nice to see that you are speaking for your SO here for all situations. And it is nice to see that you wouldn't abort (in particular since you would not be the one carrying the pregnancy)."

SO here,

Thanks for speaking for me, honey. I had a very busy day yesterday. I would absolutely love to have your baby and I agree we would never make the decision to abort. What a shame the young woman (and father's to be) are taught to be misguided about the 'moral' choices they have with abortion. There is nothing moral about abortion. Would those same people who so easily find themselves in that 'position' be able to hold even the fetus of a kitten, or a puppy in their own hand and pull it apart limb by limb? I don't think so, I certainly pray they would not. It is always so much easier when the doctor does it for you - and you don't see what actually happened to the tiny beating heart, the beautiful little toes and fingers (sometimes perfect - sometimes not). You don't have to witness the crushing of the skull, the blood, the silent screams. Stop ignoring the fact that murder is against the law - and I personally resent when people make the assumption that those of us who are pro life are also pro war, pro death penalty. Say it ain't so, baby - oh, sorry. I forget you can't because someone murdered you.

Corey Williams 5 years, 8 months ago

kansasfaithful (Anonymous) says… "Where did the protesters go? I guess all the protesters really didn't care about the troops at all. It was all about Bush. If Bush is killing Afghans it is a crime but if Obama and Biden are killing babies its okay."

The decision to invade Afghanistan was something that was at least moderately supported by other countries. We at least had a reason to invade Afghanistan since they were harboring a terrorist group responsible for over 3000 deaths in New York. I don't remember anyone protesting the war in Afghanistan in 2001, but I do remember a lot of people protesting against the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Now that we are on the way out, maybe now some real work can be done in Afghanistan.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"Katara and I provided multiple examples from obstetrics of why abortions are unfortunately necessary. It is impossible to avoid that you left the subject on point long ago and are currently involved in complaint that you aren't understood or responded to with sufficient speed."

(Amazing how frequently you seem to need to reference your little bandwagon of... two. I suppose there's comfort to be found even in the smallest of numbers... even if in only a tag-team partner....)

Without further descending into the abyss with you, let me simply repeat something from yesterday: "Abortion proponents often present extreme and incredibly infrequent incidents to justify what amounts, largely, to a practice of disposing of viable human beings in order to preserve lifestyles. Period."

So, you continue to beat your dead walrus, and I will remain mystified (and horrified) at your apparent ignorance of the iceberg on which you stand.

"Pretending that your point has been successful because you did not receive an immediate response on an Internet blog is a childish defense by a beaten man."

What is it that I'm pretending? Does your vantage point really afford that much insight into my psyche? Listen more closely... I think you'll come to recognize that antagonistic little voice echoing in your cranium as your own. How deep does your pretense (self-delusion) run?

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"Sucks to be you. I'm educating people."

You certainly are.

(And thanks for the added insight regarding my 11:45 concluding question.)

feeble 5 years, 8 months ago

Didn't see this posted here, but maybe I missed it: http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

That's a link to this poll's internals, which are sadly missing from the original article (a fact which re-enforces the LJWorlds reputation for shoddy reporting.)

A brief look through shows that that, "by ideology, all of the increase in pro-life sentiment is seen among self-identified conservatives and moderates; the abortion views of political liberals have not changed".

Basically, the fathful have been called back to the orthodoxy.

It is interesting to note that a majority of Americans still believe that some form of Abortion, depending on circumstance, should remain legal. Check out the "Combined position on Legality of Abortion graph".

According to the poll 77% of Americans think some form of Abortion should remain legal.

jimmyjms 5 years, 8 months ago

Feeble does a much better job at getting to the heart of this issue than does this article. All LJW did was run an article from the Washington Post - it would have been nice to see the (ahem) journalists at either paper look beyond the sensational and try to understand what these numbers mean.

Funkdog - I haven't looked to see what the AP calls for, but pro-lifers don't like to be called "anti-choice" just as certainly as "anti-abortion" can mean different things to different people.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 8 months ago

"At 8:56 AM, you were pretending that I was disoriented to silence by the “brilliance” of your three-in-a-row / talking-to-yourself posts at 7:52 AM, 8:12 AM and 8:17 AM. Analogous to claiming “I'm going to make a statement and if you can't refute me in less than forty minutes, I win!!! "

You do have quite the active fantasy life, don't you?

Clearly, you are not in need my input to pursue this debate. ( ... not that you ever were, or that you are likely benefit from my participation. Do try to do a better job with my side of the argument, though, if you decide to continue.... )

jonas_opines 5 years, 8 months ago

Thanks for doing the legwork, feeble. I remember pretty much the same thing from a previous article on another story. As far as I'm concerned, all this shows is the utter meaningless, in any practical or useful sense, of the phrase "pro-life."

Certainly it seems that it can't be automatically equated with anti-abortion, or anti-choice.

Ronda Miller 5 years, 8 months ago

Laughter in the faces of those who stand up against the murder of defenseless embryos - shame on you......

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says… SO here,

Thanks for speaking for me, honey. I had a very busy day yesterday. I would absolutely love to have your baby and I agree we would never make the decision to abort. What a shame the young woman (and father's to be) are taught to be misguided about the 'moral' choices they have with abortion. There is nothing moral about abortion. Would those same people who so easily find themselves in that 'position' be able to hold even the fetus of a kitten, or a puppy in their own hand and pull it apart limb by limb? I don't think so, I certainly pray they would not. It is always so much easier when the doctor does it for you - and you don't see what actually happened to the tiny beating heart, the beautiful little toes and fingers (sometimes perfect - sometimes not). You don't have to witness the crushing of the skull, the blood, the silent screams. Stop ignoring the fact that murder is against the law - and I personally resent when people make the assumption that those of us who are pro life are also pro war, pro death penalty. Say it ain't so, baby - oh, sorry. I forget you can't because someone murdered you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wow, that is just touching. You should repeat that word for word to my co-worker who suffered from a molar pregnancy and had to have an abortion @ 16 weeks. I'm sure it would just make her day.

Perhaps if you and your "SO" would actually take the time to learn about what you'd rather pretend doesn't happen (fatal birth defects, fatal maternal conditions, rape and incest) in your perfect world, you'd learn that those things are not uncommon and make difficult decisions.

But of course, it is so much easier to sit high on your moral throne and judge everyone else, facts be damned.

rbwaa 5 years, 8 months ago

btw, Ronda, ARE you pro-war or pro-death penalty?

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says… Stop ignoring the fact that murder is against the law - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stop ignoring the fact that abortion is legal. In layman's terms for you, that means is it not against the law nor defined as murder.

You should also stop ignoring the fact that while the concept of murder (i.e. the killing of another person) is a cultural universal, the definition as what constitutes murder (and what constitutes a person) varies from culture to culture (and within subcultures).

jonas_opines 5 years, 8 months ago

I can't help but admire your persistance at times, L1.

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