A Douglas County judge is deciding whether to rule in favor of the County Commission or the local Fraternal Order of Police chapter over a firing range at the FOP lodge southwest of Lawrence.
The FOP Lodge No. 2 filed the suit in 2007 intending to resolve a dispute about whether the 95-acre tract of land violates land-use policies because of a firing range there that has existed for decades.
“While the county could have insisted on a conditional-use permit back when any of these building permits were issued, it should be estopped from making that demand now, 30 years after the fact,” FOP attorney Mike Riling wrote in a recent court motion.
But county leaders said they have not found any documents to say the shooting range was ever legally permitted on the lodge property. The FOP’s property, 768 E. 661 Diagonal Road, is home to a training ground for Lawrence police, the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office and other area law enforcement agencies.
“To stop Douglas County from being able to enforce those requirements would be against justice and equity and interfere with the proper exercise of county functions,” attorney Chris Burger wrote in a court motion for the county.
Lawyers for the county and the FOP have both filed motions asking District Judge Peggy Kittel to rule in favor of their side prior to a trial.
The FOP filed the suit but is not seeking any monetary damages, but only a ruling in its favor so it won’t have to seek a conditional-use permit for the firing range. The county is asking the FOP to go through the formal process of seeking a permit for the firing range.
The dispute developed about three years ago when neighbors called the county and made a noise complaint about hearing gunshots at night near the lodge.
County officials said they then checked their records for the lodge property but didn’t find documents supporting special permits for a firing range. The FOP obtained the grounds in 1967, according to the lawsuit, and three years later it received a permit to construct a lodge at the site.
Riling has argued the county assured the FOP the firing range was proper for decades because sheriff’s officers train there. He has said records should exist to verify that and the FOP should not be punished by “sloppy record-keeping.”
But Burger has said it is the FOP’s failure for not following land-use regulations and must submit a plan to go through a proper approval process for the firing range.
The two sides argued their cases at an Aug. 4 hearing in Kittel’s court room. She is considering whether to rule in favor of one side or order a trial instead.
Comments
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Irish (Leslie Swearingen) says…
I say this is a no brainer. The cops have to learn to shoot somewhere.
"The FOP’s property, 768 E. 661 Diagonal Road, is home to a training ground for Lawrence police, the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office and other are law enforcement agencies."
If they are denied to use the FOP property then where will they train?
I think people need to be taught that not everyone is going to jump every time they whine about something.
oldvet (anonymous) says…
File for the special use permit...
Attend the meeting where the permit is voted upon...
Make note of those voting against the permit...
Distribute this (public) information to all law enforcement officers...
Remind officers of the importance of traffic laws regarding violations such as following too closely, rolling thru stop signs and exceeding the speed limit, even by 1 mph...
Write lots of tickets, always with a big smile...
smitty (anonymous) says…
Where is the article? I get page not found. What is the dispute between the county commission and fop property? I have an interest in reading the original article.
I once owned the 10 acres next to the firing range. It was common for the shot gun pellets from the FOP trap shoot to hail down on me while on my acreage. I verbally requested that they change the direction of the trap shoot so this problem would/could be satisfied for all but they continued to shoot so the pellets went off property. There is adequate acreage to make the adjustment easily.
FOP is not a considerate/good/resonable neighbor.
Can you fix the lost story?
skinny (Richard Johnson) says…
The FOP range has been there since the 1950's. When these people recently bought there property they knew the FOP range was there. Not only that, the FOP range is grandfathered in as it was there way before any of these people moved in or any of these new rules were put in place by the County Commissioners.
Get used to it, the FOP range isn’t going anywhere!!!
Slowponder (anonymous) says…
Maybe the FOP could practice in front of the County Commission Chambers on the 2nd floor of the old courthouse?
labmonkey (anonymous) says…
Skinny-
Just because they had the land first, does not excuse them from being bad neighbors if what Smitty says is true.
I am not too fond of the FOP...they are the police union and solicit donations using telemarketers. Most other unions have to survive off of union dues.
BlackVelvet (anonymous) says…
Skinny, the FOP Lodge was formed in 1956. They didn't purchase the property and build a range until the 70's.
Even though FOP's around the country are largely bargaining groups this one is not. It is purely a fraternal organization.
redfred (anonymous) says…
The local lodge does NOT do telemarketing.
labmonkey (anonymous) says…
redfred-
The local lodge does not, but the state lodge does.
BlackVelvet (anonymous) says…
This property is not owned by the city or the county.It is owned by the 250+ individual members of the FOP. They allow the City and County to qualify their officers there. It is also, and more importantly, a place for the individual members to relax, have a picnic, wedding reception, camp out, etc. A place to get away from it all.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
It would truly be a travesty if the FOP were to be required to follow the law and apply for the proper permits just like everybody else. They are, after all, above the law.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
A land of whiners. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
How hard is to to apply for the permit and then have the commission fast track it through? That way both sides get what they want. This isn't rocket science.
JimmyJoeBob (anonymous) says…
Let's just have the citizens of Lawrence and Douglas county pay for a range somewhere else. Also all you land owners in the county no more shooting on your property either. That means no more hunting in Douglas county.
MissinLawrence (anonymous) says…
The FOP are not horrible neighbors. Granted there is a lot of shooting going on but, welcome to the country! My family has owned land/lived in the area for 100+ years and have had no trouble with the owners of the FOP lodge (maybe not so much the dgso that use it, but thats our fault...damn atvs).
The FOP is also were Hunter's Safety is held.
Jimmyjoebob: does that mean no more trap shooting? thats a monthly occurance at our family farm.
repaste (anonymous) says…
they train there - the also get drunk and play with guns there. Don't believe me, ask around. Alcohol + guns, . . .
"It is also, and more importantly, a place for the individual members to relax, have a picnic, wedding reception, camp out, etc."
Maybe a permit would put some time of day restrictions in place to appease neighbors.
MeAndFannieLou (anonymous) says…
"The dispute developed about three years ago when neighbors called the county and made a noise complaint about hearing gunshots at night near the lodge."
The prissy guy says:
I'm sure this nuance will be lost on Roads_collar, for whom any compromise at all means w.e.a.k.n.e.s.s., but it seems to me that the problem is due to the noise "at night," when regular folks are trying to sleep?
Maybe the FOP could limit their practice to daytime.
Practicality (anonymous) says…
"Maybe the FOP could limit their practice to daytime."
The vast majority of shooting incidents for Law Enforcement Officers take place at night. That is why they have to practice at night. For anyone who has ever attempted to sight their weapon at night versus the daytime, you would understand how difficult it can be. Especially when you are holding a flashlight in one hand.
Douglas County will have to provide a shooting range somewhere else if this falls through, which will be at tax payer expense.
labmonkey (anonymous) says…
MissinLawrence-
I grew up in the country and hunted. It is being a bad neighbor when you shoot knowing that pellets or bullets may land on another property. If you shoot a high-powered rifle, you can kill someone 2 miles away if you miss your target. That is why when deer hunting, you don't shoot at a deer that is in the same direction of a neighbor's house or a highway.
If they are shooting at night, that makes them even worse neighbors.
MeAndFannieLou (anonymous) says…
Hmmmmmm......
I have a brother-in-law who worked for a state government (not Kansas) installing sound-proofing (mainly windows) in houses near airports, at government expense, for residents who wanted it. Maybe the county would be willing to do something like that?
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
" If you shoot a high-powered rifle, you can kill someone 2 miles away if you miss your target. "
Several years ago, I was in a field east of Lawrence along the river while a friend checked some scientific experiments she was conducting. Next thing we knew, bullets were whizzing past us, but we couldn't see who the shooter was. We dropped to the ground and crawled to the car and got out of there. Turns out the neighbor about 1/2 mile away, whose house was concealed by trees, was doing target practice, but wasn't a very good shot.
Practicality (anonymous) says…
question bozo,
did you hear the report of a weapon or did you hear an actual "whizzing" sound?
hipper_than_hip (anonymous) says…
Doesn't the law enforcement center have an indoor pistol range in the basement? Mill Creek Gun Club is just 12 minutes down the road in DeSoto, and they have a law enforcement only range where the cops shoot full auto, plus a rifle range that goes out to 500 meters.
There's a ton of ranges open to law enforcement: Ft Leavenworth, Ft Riley, Whiteman AFB, Mill Creek, there's a law enforcement only range in Wamego, Capital City Gun Club in Topeka offers law enforcement only practice days, etc.
I'm not sure how trap shooting is a law enforcement skill, but they can shoot trap at Cedar Creek south of town, or at Powder Creek in Shawnee.
Where does the Highway Patrol practice? Can the police practice at the Highway Patrol facility?
Doesn't KU have an indoor pistol range for the ROTC? Can the police share the ROTC range?
There are plenty of places for the police and sheriff to shoot that are better suited than the FOP at Lone Star.
coolmom (anonymous) says…
the memebers are not only males and i think it should be grandfathered in but checked for safety, upgrades on taxpayer expense.
imastinker (anonymous) says…
Who needs permission to fire a gun on private property anyway?
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
"question bozo,
did you hear the report of a weapon or did you hear an actual “whizzing” sound?"
Both, although the whizzing was what I first noticed. I found out later that it was a .22 rifle, so at that distance it was much less dangerous than larger caliber weapons might have been. His landlord told us that he had been told not to fire weapons on the property-- probably because the landlord farmed the land around it.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
"probably because the landlord farmed the land around it."
Around the farmhouse, that is.
hipper_than_hip (anonymous) says…
"Who needs permission to fire a gun on private property anyway?"
You don't need permission to fire a gun on private property, unless you invite 20 of your buddies to come over and shoot anytime they want, AND you charge them money. Then it changes from you & your buddies having fun to operating a business, and that is what conflicts with the zoning.
For those that know, is there any notification of the neighbors when there's going to be a night fire exercise at the FOP range?
MeAndFannieLou (anonymous) says…
Good question, Hip! I'd also like to know if it's reasonable to expect someone to know that there is a firing range where they practice at night before buying a house in that area? I get tired of "Well, you knew when you moved there..." or "Well, you chose to live in the country..." or "Well, you chose to live in the middle of town..." as a reason to expect people to just meekly accept jarring explosions instead of addressing the problem.
gl0ck0wn3r (anonymous) says…
This is a pretty common tactic of people who wish to shut down ranges despite the fact that the range was there long before the neighbors.
MeAndFannieLou (anonymous) says…
Well, glock, please tell us just what the neighbors are supposed to do - have their houses moved? Go without sleep? Maybe we should require developers and realtors to disclose such things as "there's a firing range two blocks down where they practice at night" when showing houses to prospective buyers? I agree that you shouldn't buy a house if you know that there's a problem nearby, but what if you don't know until after you've moved in? Sell and move out, sure, but then some other unsuspecting person moves in and the problem is still there.
MeAndFannieLou (anonymous) says…
Oh, jeez, I've been talking to the dining room table again!
(in case you missed it, that's a reference to Barney Frank's response to a Town Hall terrorist)
BlackVelvet (anonymous) says…
"they train there - the also get drunk and play with guns there. Don't believe me, ask around. Alcohol + guns, … "
If you have any proof of this, please contact me, or the Douglas County Sheriff. We want to hear about it.
BlackVelvet (anonymous) says…
"You don't need permission to fire a gun on private property, unless you invite 20 of your buddies to come over and shoot anytime they want, AND you charge them money. Then it changes from you & your buddies having fun to operating a business, and that is what conflicts with the zoning.
For those that know, is there any notification of the neighbors when there's going to be a night fire exercise at the FOP range?"
fwiw, we don't "charge them" money to shoot out there.
and yes, we now notify neighbors if there will be night shooting going on.