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Archive for Monday, October 13, 2008

Protesters: Indigenous peoples, not Columbus, should be celebrated on holiday

When kids learn about the history of America, you can bet there will be a chapter about Christopher Columbus. But some people think kids are learning the wrong lesson.

October 13, 2008

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On the street

Do you think it’s inappropriate to celebrate Columbus Day?

I think it’s fine to celebrate Columbus Day, because it happened and it’s history. And I got the day off.

More responses

About 50 people gathered Monday afternoon in South Park to protest the celebration of Columbus Day. They marched up and down Massachusetts Street, then gathered at Haskell Indian Nations University to hear former professors tell a different version of the Christopher Columbus story.

"We really want to stress the re-education of children because I think too often the fairy book story of Columbus is what's told," said Derrick White, a senior at Haskell and the president of the American Indians Studies Club. "I think that it's just a misappropriated holiday."

The group talked about struggles facing the American Indian community today and prayed. The group wants to focus on getting others to see how Columbus plays a role in their history.

"How can America be discovered when somebody was already here?" said Lawrence resident Travis Brown. "He was just a lost soul looking for another land, a trade route and other riches for an empire."

The group chant called for Indigenous Peoples' Day to be celebrated instead.

And some hope that Haskell's presence can help to spread their message.

"If that education is not going on right here where one of the major universities in Indian Country is, then it's not going to be told around the country," said Margaret Stevens, a recent Haskell graduate.

White said the education about Columbus Day was not sufficient and needed to change. Columbus, he said, is not the kind of man who should be celebrated.

"I grew up in Lawrence and I know that Columbus Day was definitely a very touchy day for me growing up in this community," he said.

Brown agreed.

"I grew up in the mainstream society and I was pretty culturally diverse, so being one of the few Native Americans it was hard for me to be able to stay in touch with the reality of who I was," he said.

Stevens said this is not an issue only for the second Monday in October.

"I think it's important for us to do that not only on Columbus Day, not only in Indigenous Peoples' Day, but every day," she said.

President Richard Nixon declared Columbus Day a national holiday in 1971.

Comments

rbs 6 years, 2 months ago

I think we often forget what indigenous people went through when Columbus "discovered" the North American continent. . . anyone who knows the real story of Columbus' 4 voyages would know he is no one that should be celebrated in the context we've created over the last 600 years. He was a dominant tyrant who killed huge populations of people. Even his own sailors didn't like him. Maybe XD40 and Raider should bone up on their history. . .

monkeyspunk 6 years, 2 months ago

What a stupid holiday really. Loss of productivity for a guy who got snubbed by a German map maker who thought Amerigo Vespucci was a better namesake for a continent. I wouldn't be against an "indigenous people's" day at all. I mean we get months and weeks for every other minority in this country. Just as long as I don't have to listen to a bunch of BS about how in touch with nature all natives were or how peaceful they all were. Other than that, no problem.

Steve Jacob 6 years, 2 months ago

Well it not much of a holiday anymore anyways. Other then federal governments and banks, who else closed? We need to get rid of it and make Halloween a holiday.

Bladerunner 6 years, 2 months ago

Silly Beatrice, Barrack OBomber willnever be on future currency. He will be on "Change". As in Gimme your spare Change. Im gonna raise your taxes!

manus_flexibilis 6 years, 2 months ago

I'm just passing through wondering if i should go to your heaven or hell, nah! I'll just stick to the ways of my grandfathers and accept the fact that its not easy being who I am. Totally accepting the fact of where I am going. Makes me feel better inside knowing that I'm just passing through. The prophecies cannot be changed, so the introduced prophecies of the new comers (transplants)mean absolutely nothing. Whether we lost or were conquered does not make a non-indian any better, basically the outcome is a heavenly or hellish fate, according to a book.

beatrice 6 years, 2 months ago

I don't really care much for Columbus day, but Indigenous People Day is also a bad idea. We have holidays to honor great achievements of individuals or groups, whether imagined (Columbus) or real (MLK, Veterans' Day, Presidents' Day). A holiday just to honor an ethnicity with no other purpose seems too random. Barack Obama day? No. But I hope your children enjoy seeing him on their future currency. Maybe they could rename Grandparents' Day after McCain.

Bob Forer 6 years, 2 months ago

Wonder if Ray Pierotti, the KU Prof and "fake Indian" was in the audience?

Jaylee 6 years, 2 months ago

here's my plan:celebrate whatever you want! this country is full of people that would follow you regardless of prior convictions as long as you were partying instead of raising hell and protesting.produce calenders and plan events that emphasize your holiday's date and what it is all about so it starts working its way into american people's minds, but leave the protesting to the rest of the year. let your holiday be a holiday.

Steve Jacob 6 years, 2 months ago

"And Sarah can back to hating polar bears full time"Don't be dissing our future president of 2012. Add four years experience, and for sure picking up all of Mike Huckabee voters, she can get the nomination anyway.

geekin_topekan 6 years, 2 months ago

Get over that World Trade Center thing.Sheesh.Religious fantacism killed in 1492 and again in 2001.Both times on American soil.

justaverage 6 years, 2 months ago

rbs - Sort of like when a Grizzly bear meets a wolf and wins. Survival of the fittest. I don't celebrate Columbus Day because, I have to work to pay my taxes which help to educate all people in this country.

notajayhawk 6 years, 2 months ago

rbs (Anonymous) says: "anyone who knows the real story of Columbus' 4 voyages would know he is no one that should be celebrated in the context we've created over the last 600 years."You're absolutely correct. Columbus should be viewed in the context of 500 years ago, not in the one we've 'created' over the centuries since then. Just as, in that context we've created since the events happened, Lincoln was a raving bigot, but for the time he was something of a progressive. Judge Columbus by the standards of the time in which he lived, instead of rewriting history with the politically correct BS of today.

mwwkw 6 years, 2 months ago

I read a Sherman Alexie novel today. It helped me get a new POV on this issue.

sdinges 6 years, 2 months ago

My ancestors got robbed and were forced to flee France during the French Revolution... who do I contact about reparations?

oakcliffgirl 6 years, 2 months ago

Who knows? I have yet to meet anyone in my life seeking out reparations.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 6 years, 2 months ago

Good thing we get holidays off... otherwise they'd be a real bummer.

mr_economy 6 years, 2 months ago

Raider, would you support telling the same thing to all other descendants of genocide victims?

dandelion 6 years, 2 months ago

Let's face it, Chris was a failure, who wasn't looking for a new world. He never did get to where he wanted to go.

jonas_opines 6 years, 2 months ago

"Christopher Columbus belonged to an age that was past, yet he became the sign and symbol of this new age of hope, glory and accomplishment. His medieval faith impelled him to a modern solution: Expansion."Umm. . . yes. In case you hadn't noticed, that's pretty much the viewpoint of what the problem is. That in order to self-sustain, the Western powers had no choice but to move outwards seeking new opportunities, and said opportunities were usually to the overall detriment of whatever indigenous population happened to be located where said expansion was taking place. It's pretty much fact, too. You can deny its relevance, I suppose, but not the basic gist.

tanaumaga 6 years, 2 months ago

justaverage,survival of the fittest is called disease...how fit are you?

oldvet 6 years, 2 months ago

none2,It will never work. Too stupid...

manus_flexibilis 6 years, 2 months ago

Merry Colombus Day to you all and all a fabulous night!

calvin 6 years, 2 months ago

Chris Columbus was lost at sea. Why we have a day set aside to mark the occasion is weird to me.

skinny 6 years, 2 months ago

They all got the day off with pay because it was a federal holiday! If not, they wouldn't be there down on Mass St.

oldvet 6 years, 2 months ago

harley, that 9:28 post is just too good... thanks for the chuckle...

RedwoodCoast 6 years, 2 months ago

I'm sorry, but I think the protesters have a valid point. And I'll say that many of the posts here are nothing short of callous.How would you feel if the descendants of the people who decimated your ancestors, leading to your current societal predicament, also named a national holiday commemorating the arrival of disease and mean-spirited conquerors to your ancestral population.We get pissed off if people deny the Holocaust or in any way attempt to diminish it, but just as many, if not more, people died from disease epidemics and wholesale slaughter in post-Columbian North and South America than in the Holocaust. What if Hitler had won? What if he named a national holiday in honor of the successful 'purification' of Germany and its newly annexed territories?There are a few issues and subjects about which I get very upset, and this is one of them. They're just supposed to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, huh? Australia owned up to its horrid past with aboriginal peoples by formally apologizing. Although that is all talk and no action, they can at least own up to their past transgressions. What about us?Everyone should see the films 'Where the Green Ants Dream,' by Werner Herzog, and 'Ten Canoes' by some Australian director whose name I forget. Both of them really put indigenous issues into perspective. It is my belief that the current plight of indigenous peoples in the US is due to the past actions of our federal government that have systematically attempted to erase their culture, effectively making them both subservient to and dependent upon modern western society.And then people post BS on forums like this basically saying, 'so what, you lost.' Well I say: nice use of the first amendment, d-bags.

sdinges 6 years, 2 months ago

Since we posted at the same time, Oakcliffgirl, I'll take a moment to address a point or two.A quick Wikipedia search on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples will give you a detailed answer to why those countries all voted against it. The answer is outlined by country, since their reasoning was not exactly the same. What's more, some if not all of those countries have at one time or another acknowledged and apologized for a variety of mistreatments of their indigenous people.As for why you need to carry a card to prove who you are (your tribe gets to decide who gets included - by the way) - it entitles you to certain rights and benefits. Without that, fraud would simply disable that system of entitlements and it would cease to exist. Those entitlements (such as health care and university tuition) are, indeed, funded by the government.Now here's the deal - and why people callously tell you to "get over it" once in awhile: I did not commit any atrocities. I have not marginalized you. Whether or not my ancestors committed wrongs against your ancestors, you cannot expect me to somehow atone for that. I do not owe you something because someone in your bloodline may or may not have been harmed by someone in my bloodline. I do not owe you an apology.I understand that your culture continues to suffer - but you will never be able to address the issues in your community by constantly looking backward for someone to blame instead of taking responsibility and looking forward.

SMe 6 years, 2 months ago

I'm for Columbus.Get another day for Native Americans.

dweezil222 6 years, 2 months ago

srj (Anonymous) says: "And Sarah can back to hating polar bears full time"Don't be dissing our future president of 2012. Add four years experience, and for sure picking up all of Mike Huckabee voters, she can get the nomination anyway.==================================Nah. That gives the Republicans 4 whole years to try to pass a Constitutional amendment so the Governator can run.

kmat 6 years, 2 months ago

newsreaders - yeah, working hard trolling the internet, huh?News flash for you - not everyone works M-F. 8-5. Some people work on weekends. Some work nights. People are able to work a full time job and still do other activities. Oh my gosh, some people even get vacation days they can take off for whatever purpose they wish!

monkeyspunk 6 years, 2 months ago

My ancestry is both Aztec and Spanish.Part of me is having a really hard time getting over the other half of me that tried to wipe out half of me half a millennia ago.Can I get some therapy here people!

oakcliffgirl 6 years, 2 months ago

Not saying that I NEED to PROVE who am by any means, its just simply the fact. Yes, tribes get to pick and choose who gets enrolled, that is why I still am not "enrolled" in any of my tribes, I simply have the little plastic card stating I should by some way belong to this particular tribe because of the DawesRolls. Blood quantum is sickening. A descendant of a long and proud family is what am, I am 3 tribes and nothing else, but I do not have said card because of errors in documents that I feel I should not fix, but I will not delve into that right now...university tuition, sure if you can get it go for it, I have never once in my life got one cent from any of my tribes. Sure I have recieved healthcare here and there, but how much Ibuprofen from IHS can you take?No one today or any day I have heard ask for any apologies. I certainly do not ask for apologies for crimes other people beside yourself( sdinges)have commited. Looking forward is what Indigenous People all over the world have done and continue to do every day...easier said than done one you have to TRY and tell a person why you want to be against the celebration of "ColumbusDay"...The harm that has been done to all of our people runs deep, so deep that every day we are reminded of what has happened to our people. Our names, for one...everyone I know has a story to what their names should be, and yes I know you can go to the court house and get it changed. All I am saying is that we are faced with our past everyday,we do not look backward not wanting to move forward, we look back because if we do not we will never be able to step forward...and believe me we are not merely told once in a while to 'get over it', students within my own university here are so colonized and brainwashed that they can not stand the site of a few strongminded people...thay have been taught ways that it was okay to wear the paper feathers all november long,lost souls. We were not out there today asking for apologies, we were out there getting our community to take notice. We move forward everyday, we teach ourselves the way of the worlds in which we live. We struggle everyday with our own demons in our world trying to subdue our learning processes and trying to create obstacles to distract from corrupt within our own university. Everyday for us is IndigenousPeoplesDay...we live in a world that we must and do move forward to prosper for future generations, October 13th just happens to be a day that people do not understand the hideosity of what they are celebrating. Yes, I know people may not actually "celebrate" this day (not the man even)but understanding is the key here, that is what we want. Educating the future or as you may call it looking forward.

oakcliffgirl 6 years, 2 months ago

Honestly? I do not see the point in being so anit-IndigenousPeoplesDay. You would never see a day celebrating the atrocities that Hitler began...People in support of this day are taking steps to educating their world, THANK YOU all for taking the time to spread the good the word, because that is what you are doing when you get on here and bash the thoughts and ideas of all the students and supporters that marched down Mass St today.Do people really feel that if there was no ENCOUNTER when Columbus and or every other person who has step foot on this lost continent that the people of the FirstNations of North America would or could never prosper? Why celebrate the genocide of a people that still fight for freedoms today in this world where you can at your leisure sit and type a few words on a board such as this...why not educate the ignorant. GENOCIDE people is still in place. You may look up the definition given to you by Merriam-Webster or go and askjeeves but have you ever studied the meaning? Consider why the United States was one of 4 countries to vote against the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Out of 143 countries voting the U.S.,Canada,Australia and New Zealand were against this declaration. Why? Because they are ubable to man up to the atrocites they contributed to up til now? Genocide is alive and well people. Just because when you hear the word genocide you consider gas chambers and the Holocaust...would you celebrate people that felt the need to rid the world of other people? No, you would and should celebrate the perseverance and strength of the people that survived? Genocide is the movemnet of peoples, the hurt one group causes another group to feel physically,emotionally,mentally.Genocide is the attempts to stop a group of people from procreating...which went down in the 70's peoples just as this damned holiday went down as well....IndigenousPeoplesDay is about educating. Talk to students that walked today, hear the the pro-indigenous talk not the "slander" or "bad mouthing" of a lost explorer. That is not what the day is about...is it really that hard to accept that the U.S. is flawed? That IndigenousPeople today have to fight documents and laws that correlate to a time when "Columbus stepped foot onto the sand" of this beautiful land? Discovery, is not what went down then folks. ENCOUNTER...Indigenous people were here and have been arguing that since. Is it really that bad to want to talk? Indigenous people today have to have cards to prove blood quantum...to prove who they are...why? A form of genocide people. Today in the U.S. WE have to continue this slap in the face. Just to throw a lil more out there, we all do not live to party, we all do not get money from the government, we all do not come from a tribe with casinos and apparently have tons of money. Just consider the facts people...FACTS which can be proven. Speak the TRUTH.................

Lars Larson 6 years, 2 months ago

same old story, same old song and dance.

Raider 6 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

newsreader 6 years, 2 months ago

I wish I didn't have to work so i could protest stuff all day.... get a job, losers...

tanaumaga 6 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

kmat 6 years, 2 months ago

To all the morons here who have no real clue about what life is still like for natives - take a long drive to visit some reservations. Get off the beaten path in AZ, NV, UT and really go up into the reservations. You will cry. No, if you have a soul you will weap! One of the best things my father ever did for me and my siblings was to take us onto reservation land many times to meet the people. We were shown how the natives were treated. We saw the poverty they had to live in because their true lands were taken away because it was too valuable for farm land or mineral rights. We were taught about the injustice that our govt inflicted on these peoples.Yes, it has been a little over a hundred years since we "officially" robbed these tribes. But, their decendants are still living with the effects. Most natives don't have casinos. Most have nothing of much value on the barren land that white man gave them in place of their fertile lands. They live without running water. They live without health care. They live as if they are not a part of this country. Everyone should be embarrassed that we still allow peoples to be treated in this manner.Free health care? Free education? What a joke. I am white, but take native issues very seriously because I have 3 nephews and neices that are half native. they have no official paperwork proving it because the family records were lost in a fire. So, they get no free education. No benefits.What most people think about natives and what their lives are like are very far removed from reality and are based out of ignorance.Everyone would be much better off if they took the time to see how others live. I'm very serious when I say visit a reservation. It will change your thinking.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 2 months ago

Could we all get along with Dora, the Explorer Day?

kmat 6 years, 2 months ago

You beat me to it oakcliffgirl. He has no clue.Even though blue73harley didn't get help from his parents after he turned 18, I'm sure he got a descent public education in his descent public school, grew up with running water, grocery stores, public transportation, etc... as I did. He/she got a better start with more resources than someone on the reservation has. I put myself through college, haven't relied on my parents since I was a teen, but I got an upperhand because I grew up with resources.It is so easy to say move, get a job, blah blah blah. If it were so easy, every single frickin' person in this land, regardless of ethnicity, would at any time in their lives just "get a J-O-B and move". What blue doesn't understand is that in order to "get a J-O-B and move", one must have the resources to do it. How the hell do you do that when you have no money, no transportation, etc...? The only option is to end up on the street. Does blue73harley want more homeless roaming the streets? And if anyone living on a reservation is lucky enough to get a job on their reservation or nearby, they make barely enough money to feed their families. There is no extra money to set aside so you can leave the reservation. Unfortunately, the families that find a way to get their kids off the reservation don't see them return because they can't get work if they come home. And most reservations aren't adjacent to cities, so it's not like they can just commute to work in the city and return to the reservation at night. Live in extreme poverty or tear apart tribes that have been together for milennia???Sorry blue, but you have no clue what you speak of. It's easy to sit back at your computer and judge others without having a clue what their lives are really like. You would be well served by doing as I suggested and actually visit a reservation. The only issue with that is you need to be respectful and from your posts I don't know if that is an option for you.

oakcliffgirl 6 years, 2 months ago

To the last comment(blue73harley)...As I have mentioned before, really understand the meaning of genocide then see why people are tied to these barren wastelands. Indigenous people have been forced to be dependant on the U.S. Govenment. Check out the Convention on the Prevention of the Crime of Genocide. Also, people are proud to be on their own lands. Hence the reason the Lakota of the Black Hills have not given in and SOLD their precious lands and resources. Until you can walk a day in an Indigenous persons shoes and deal with the things that make them who they are do not preach to someone to get a job or move.

kmat 6 years, 2 months ago

blue - I know something about these illegals coming across the border, being married to someone who grew up in LA and most of my family still lives there. I spend a lot of time out there and have seen how they survive. A lot of them have family here. They get across the border and get to where their family lives. They have a place to stay. Ever seen a one bedroom apartment with 12+ people living it? Pretty common out there. Ever wonder how the illegal immigrants can afford to live here on terrible wages they get paid since they're illegal? Pack as many as you can into one place to afford the rent. Those that don't have a place to go when they cross live on the streets. Go into some areas in LA and check out the problem. It isn't pretty.So, you advocate for more homelessness in this country. Kick 'em off the reservations and put them in the streets. That's a smart move.And the wonderful, high paying jobs the natives will have once they are living on the streets. I guess they'll be taking what jobs they can find that illegal immigrants haven't filled, working for less than minimum wage. Not any better than staying on the reservation.We are talking about citizens, not illegals. Citizens that should have the same benefits as the rest of us. But they don't and you won't understand until you get off you butt and see and experience what life is like on the reservation.Until you have seen it with your own eyes, you will never have a clue. It's worthless to say anymore. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it blue?

numhale 6 years, 2 months ago

R-E-S-P-E-C-T!As a Nishnabe of the Prairie Band Potawatomi and elder, traditional way of life is very sacred and to honor Mother Earth and Beings. Rez is life not terrible, it is a way of life. It is no different than urban life. Everyone is struggling. How do you describe "normal"? "dysfunctional"?I am not sure what direction the Columbus Day holiday will ever go but with you highly-educated bloggers, perhaps you can hone your skills to CHANGE or petition to get rid of the holiday as well others, i.e., Presidents Day, St. Patrick's, etc.Went to the Post Office one day, a petitioner was getting signatures for Ralph Nader on the ticket in Kansas. See. It works!

Jim Phillips 6 years, 2 months ago

At last! A real problem to be concerned with!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 2 months ago

"The killing off of bison was NOT done to intentionally hurt native peoples, it was greed and waste to be sure, but it was not some governmental conspiracy,"Not entirely accuratehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American..."Bison were hunted almost to extinction in the 19th century and were reduced to a few hundred by the mid-1880s. The main reason they were hunted was for their skins, with the rest of the animal left behind to decay on the ground. After the animals rotted, their bones were collected and shipped back east in large quantities.There were government initiatives at the federal and local level to starve the population of the Plains Indians by killing off their main food source, the bison. The Government promoted bison hunting for various reasons: to allow ranchers to range their cattle without competition from other bovines and to weaken the Indian population and pressure them to remain on reservations. The herds formed the basis of the economies of local Plains tribes of Native Americans for whom the bison were a primary food source. Without bison, the Native Americans would be forced to leave or starve.The railroad industry also wanted bison herds culled or eliminated. Herds of bison on tracks could damage locomotives when the trains failed to stop in time. Herds often took shelter in the artificial cuts formed by the grade of the track winding though hills and mountains in harsh winter conditions. As a result, bison herds could delay a train for days.The main reason for the bison's near-demise, much like the actual demise of the Passenger Pigeon, was commercial hunting."

manus_flexibilis 6 years, 2 months ago

When its time to move on it will not be up to me or any other person to make this decision unless that person has a vendetta of some sort. Respect me the way you want to be respected, other than that move outta the trailer park and quit waiting for more handouts unlike the Natives you perceive us to be.

numhale 6 years, 2 months ago

Columbus Day. Depends what side of the fence you're on.This blog history lesson reminds me of the days when my father would argue with the radio during World War II! No one ever listens to you for a change. Live in the Moment, unless you step forward to change history. But you know as well as I that politicians do not listen to the Native Americans. They just patronize with a pat on the back, next.Indian Healthcare Improvement Act did not get passed this session. "long as the grass grows, and the river flows" Treaty after treaty, no one listens. Hopefully, our leaders of tomorrow will become senators! And then, today, IF you are working for your tribal government, every project/program has to be sanctioned by BIA. During the Relocation years by BIA, young women went to DC and forced into sex slaves. Now, it is just now being investigated!Just to name a few issues needing to be recognized instead just Columbus Day.Senators shoulda taken care of our back yard instead of overseas fighting for oil! Greed for the corporates. On and On.

kcwarpony 6 years, 2 months ago

"Get a J-O-B and move." I find it interesting that blueharley is telling us to do something that he himself won't do. Sure, he has the first part covered, he has a job, but he won't move to where its at. He would rather drive to joco everyday and complain about the traffic.With all due respect, your advise would go over much better if you followed it yourself.

numhale 6 years, 2 months ago

FYIGoogle: United Native AmericaA website of interest to petition RE: Columbus Day...

jaywalker 6 years, 2 months ago

"Australia owned up to its horrid past with aboriginal peoples by formally apologizing. Although that is all talk and no action, they can at least own up to their past transgressions. What about us?"No offense, Redwood, but who the hell is "us"? Noone in my family through my great grandparents had anything to do with any of the suffering of our native people. This stuff goes back centuries, and it's a bummer that history has been tough on anyone, but me or you or our government apologizing for the sins of our father's (twenty time s removed)....? What's the point? Who does it help.. appease... satisfy... console... ??

RedwoodCoast 6 years, 2 months ago

I meant 'us,' as in our society. Just look at the comments of people on this thread. Our government embarked on a systematic campaign to destroy Native American culture--through the killing off of bison, the shipping of children to boarding schools like Haskell, and putting them on reservations making them reliant upon western foodstuffs like flour and sugar, and the list goes on and on. 'We' wanted our manifest destiny, and by God, we got it, nevermind the people we steamrolled over on the way. By 'us,' I mean 'us' as a society. The current plight of the peoples who inhabited this continent BEFORE anyone ever ran into it while searching for a westward route to the Indies is directly traceable to past actions of our elected government.Why can't we own up to that? It isn't a comfortable thought that the good ol' United States has that cemented in its history. 'We' as a society might not have known any better back then, but I don't see how anyone can sit around nowdays, looking at history, and saying, 'Well, that's sucks, but why the hell do I have to care? I didn't do that stuff to them.' That's not the freaking point, and if you can't understand that, then I'm through trying to explain it. I'm not saying 'we' should claim liability for it, as it is a dirty problem that no one wants on their hands. It is unfortunate, but I don't see why we can't at least own up to our transgressions--like Australia did. Granted, an apology is just words, but at least formally acknowledging having made heinous 'Indian Affairs' policies as a country's government in the past is probably the first step to patching things up.Take it or leave it.

jaywalker 6 years, 2 months ago

"That's not the freaking point, and if you can't understand that, then I'm through trying to explain it."I wrote 'no offense', Redwood, and I meant it. I'm not apathetic to the sins of the past, but you're tilting at windmills, friend. First of all, it has been 'owned up' to as the events are being taught this very day in every university in the United States. I couldn't give a crap less what Australia did, and you even say that it was just words, so again I say what's the point? It doesn't help anyone, and it's not going to educate anyone. The killing off of bison was NOT done to intentionally hurt native peoples, it was greed and waste to be sure, but it was not some governmental conspiracy, ease up a touch. I'm not arguing that re-education and forced assimilation was prevalent, nor that tribes were lied to and forced to move or massacred. All these things happened, to be sure. But it's no different than the practice of colonization by Spain and England, or the periods of dominance by the Moors, the Mongols, the Huns, the Romans, etc. etc. etc. It is the story of H-I-S-T-O-R-Y. Teach the children well, learn from it, but quit believing that 'we' as a society need to keep apologizing for it. The only thing 'we' as a society have a responsibilty to do in such instances is to prevent future atrocities of the same nature.

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