Archive for Thursday, October 9, 2008

Merits of sales taxes for transit debated

Majority of panelists say T is a must; all contend system needs improvements

Efforts to save the city's public transportation system seem to be gaining steam tonight. Organizations that don't typically get involved with sales tax issues held a forum to discuss the future of the T.

October 9, 2008


The League of Women Voters of Lawrence-Douglas County typically doesn't support sales taxes because they're seen as regressive, said Carrie Lindsey, president of the league.

But for public transportation, the league will make an exception. The organization has long supported public transportation, citing it is as an essential city service, Lindsey said.

The league sponsored a public forum Wednesday night at Plymouth Congregational Church to discuss public transit and encourage voters to approve two sales tax questions that will be on the Nov. 4 ballot. The questions are for a two-tenths of a percent tax to provide public transit operations at the current capacity and a five-one hundredths percent tax for expanded transit services.

"In this case we felt that the T : is a part of the infrastructure of the city of Lawrence, and we didn't want to see it lost," she said.

Lindsey moderated a question-and-answer session with a panel of nine people: City Manager David Corliss; Jim Mullins, field coordinator for Americans for Prosperity; James Canaday, vice president of the Douglas County Area Chapter of the National Federation of the Blind; Alan Black, Kansas University professor of urban planning and former board member of the city public transportation advisory committee; Marian Hukle, KU math professor and former board member of the transportation advisory committee; Deirdre Humphrey, employment specialist for the Lawrence-Douglas County Housing Authority; Gayle Sigurdson, elderly services coordinator for the housing authority; Rob Tabor, attorney for Independence Inc.; and John Hunter, senior research assistant supervisor for KU's Center for Remote Sensing of Ice Sheets.

Fewer than 20 people were in the audience.

A majority of the panelists, many of them avid T riders, said public transportation is a must, but the panel unanimously agreed changes need to be made to make it more effective.

Hunter rode the T for three years from 2003 to 2006. He stopped because "it wasn't working for me," he said, citing long waits and ineffective routes as main reasons.

"I came to this meeting : mostly opposed to another tax, or a couple of taxes that was far from paying its own way," he said. "But I asked myself, 'What do we want the city to be? What is our vision?' I would like it to be a city that creates opportunities."

Job opportunities were a major concern for panelists working for social services agencies.

Sigurdson, Humphrey and Tabor cited public transportation as key to helping their clients find and keep jobs. They said there is a greater cost to the city if people such as senior citizens and the unemployed are not able to use city buses to get to doctor visits, industrial jobs on the outskirts of the city or volunteer positions.

For Hunter, however, the desire to create opportunities, he said, "has to be tempered with financial reality."

To Mullins, that financial reality is that the city cannot afford to maintain the transportation system. He opposed supporting the sales tax. He said he often sees empty buses because routes go to unpopular places, and that taxi vouchers or another alternatives could take the place of paratransit services.

Other panelists such as Hunter could appreciate Mullins views, but what changed Hunter's mind on supporting the sales tax is the notion that a majority of sales tax dollars would come from out-of-town visitors, including those for KU basketball and football games, and he said he believed that city leaders and others would work to create a more efficient transportation system.

"I thought we had an extremely good discussion and different views were aired," said Kay Hale, member of the league.


BigPrune 9 years, 7 months ago

Will the Liberal League of Women Voters be working the voting booths this year like they did back in '92?

dipweed 9 years, 7 months ago

Don't fund the T and put the savings toward the bypass.

applebottom 9 years, 7 months ago

Will the '92 Atlanta Braves be working the voting booths this year?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 9 years, 7 months ago

"Buy less, live better."A good, comprehensive public transit system allows a city to do exactly that.

exhawktown 9 years, 7 months ago

Can't they charge a minimal fee to ride the bus? Couldn't bus passes be sold for a low price, and less-used routes eliminated?

justthefacts 9 years, 7 months ago

This proposal to increase taxes comes at a very bad time, in case the city "fathers" don't realize it. We have robbed Peter to pay Paul for decades. And the bills are finally coming due. I received a very nice brochure and letter from the city - "adverstising" for a "yes" vote (now, by law they can't actually urge a vote one way or the other - just provide info on it; but anyone who reads this material will realize the city fathers who paid for it wants the proposal to pass). Wonder how much they spent to print/mail that out? Wonder how many roads could have been fixed for that money....With everyone's budget in the dump (globally) the last thing we need to do is figure out how to squeeze one more thin dime out of tax payers. Not many people are looking for new things to buy. Even if they'd like to buy them. So don't expect this proposal to pass. I hate that we won't have decent roads or a good transit system. But that's all about the choices we have made in the past and the priorities for spending established by our "leaders." We are going to have to learn to live on what we make, even if that is a shoe string. And that includes our government. You want to fund these worthwhile projects? Then find some other things to cut out of the budget. I am sure the citizens who post on these boards can give you some good ideas of areas/things where the general public good will not be significantly harmed if they're cut from the budget.

SettingTheRecordStraight 9 years, 7 months ago

"...he said he believed that city leaders and others would work to create a more efficient transportation system."Why should we trust the city to create a more efficient system when we've experienced eight years of waste and abuse? Vote NO November 4.

Lawrence49 9 years, 7 months ago

The city commission has one strategy, ask for more money. I would advise everyone to vote no on all 3 local sales tax options. In Kansas we pay big $ in taxes and get very little in return.

justthefacts 9 years, 7 months ago

You can get rid of a golf course. Just sell the land or give it away to farmers. Voila - no more obligations to support it. And the fact that this year's budget is set (which by the way can be amended mid-year, by following statutory procedures for doing so) does not mean that next year's budget cannot (or should not) be trimmed to the bone. Living on credit and borrowing from the future has cost us our economy. It will cost us our country if we do not start cutting back to bare necessities, as of now.

sjschlag 9 years, 7 months ago

"I am sure the citizens who post on these boards can give you some good ideas of areas/things where the general public good will not be significantly harmed if they're cut from the budget."-Eagle Bend Golf Course-$1 million for "economic development" in east hills business park-Various road and sewer installations for west lawrence development-Excess city employeesAll of these could be cut, trouble is that the city can't get rid of Eagle Bend, and the road/sewer junk is already happening. It's too late to fix our city's budget- the mill levy and budget are set. This sales tax is the only way for public transit to continue. Atleast on the bright side-it will go to a dedicated fund for public transit, and only public transit.

grimpeur 9 years, 7 months ago

Any plan to make Americans prosperous will first address the drain on our pocketbooks as a result of the overuse of the personal automobile. While the car once was a symbol of the prosperity, and while the car once provided a "convenience" related to the longer distances between residences and services in the developing mid-century suburbs, those car-centric habits have been shoved down the throats of urban dwellers who have made it their business to live near work, near family, near goods and services. It's no longer convenient, but the symbolism of prosperity is still manifest in the absurdity of excess shown by American car buyers and drivers. If I walk or ride my bike every day (and I do), where is my tax break? (OK, $20 thanks to Blumenauer in the bailout bill, but c'mon: if an SUV owner gets a $6k write-off for lying about the commercial status of her Chevy Suburban, I should get twice that for driving only 5 times to work in 10 years.) Why do I, through existing and proposed property, sales, and gas taxes, have to pay for the lazy habits and poor choices of habitual motorists who refuse to carpool, walk, bike or bus? That's right, I pay for the streets but I drive on them, by mileage, at a level only about one-fifth of the average motorist per year. I pay for parking spaces and garages I don't use. I pay for runoff and pollution remediation. I pay higher insurance premiums as a result of motorists' accidents. And I pay lots of money to repair broken streets, streets that have to be enlarged and reconstructed to make new capacity for people who refuse to consider or who have not been offered an alternative to their own car, and I pay the approximately $800,000,000/year of KDOT's $billion+ budget that is not covered by gasoline taxes. Why?Because we've decided that transportation of people and goods is important enough that it must be provided by the government, and I agree. So I pay. Transportation is a government function because it is part of promoting the general welfare, and thus is something in which the government has a vested interest. And if you think it's the government's job provide roads in order for citizens to get to work, school, grocery stores, and so forth, then you must also agree that it is government's job to provide trains and buses for these same reasons. After all, we need our citizens to be able to get to work on time. We don't need to store their empty cars for them, though.

gr 9 years, 7 months ago

"I pay the approximately $800,000,000/year of KDOT's $billion+ budget "Really? Maybe you could fund the empT yourself."After all, we need our citizens to be able to get to work on time."But does that mean we need to be blind, everything and anything goes, and not find better methods?

Sigmund 9 years, 7 months ago

If the empTy is a necessity, what will we cut to pay for it? Fire, police, libraries, parks, roads, city employees, or something else. I have said it again and again, so one more time won't be a surprise to anyone. The empTy costs far exceed the benefits to the entire community, but if you must have it you must cut somewhere else. The problem are the politicians on the current commission. They are so weak willed and weak minded they are unwilling to cut anything of substance to pay for the empTy. Constantly running deficits haven't worked out so well lately, unless you expect Gov Kathy or the Feds to bail us out. Whatever, do NOT continue without balancing the budget. Now my opinion is the empTy is unsuited for a town that has such a low population density and a University bus service that already serves the vast majority of the need for mass transit in Lawrence. But if you must, balance the budget because next years tax revenues are going to be worse than this years.

Chris Ogle 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree with Mullins: NO fixed-routes, Yes paratransit, Yes demand-responseVote no to the regressive sales tax. s

applebottom 9 years, 7 months ago

Will the tax increase actually "clean up" the T? If I wanted to smell like urine, I'd drive my toilet to work. I think the League of Women Voters should stick to fighting crime, like their counterparts, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Confrontation 9 years, 7 months ago

I saw the image of a pregnant woman getting on the "T." All of you anti-choice people should be fighting to help this woman keep her method of transportation. Oh, I forgot. She's on her own once she has this kid.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

grimpeur (Anonymous) says: "That's right, I pay for the streets but I drive on them, by mileage, at a level only about one-fifth of the average motorist per year. I pay for parking spaces and garages I don't use. I pay for runoff and pollution remediation. I pay higher insurance premiums as a result of motorists' accidents. And I pay lots of money to repair broken streets, streets that have to be enlarged and reconstructed to make new capacity for people who refuse to consider or who have not been offered an alternative to their own car, and I pay the approximately $800,000,000/year of KDOT's $billion+ budget that is not covered by gasoline taxes. Why?"Great idea! Except:I hope you don't use groceries, grimpie, 'cause they get to your grocery store by truck, and trucks need roads.Maybe when you have a heart attack, a horse-drawn ambulance won't be much of an inconvenience to you. And I'm sure when your house catches on fire, your neighbors won't mind pitching in with a bucket brigade.Oh, and something you (and your cheerleader jackripper) seem to forget is - these buses need roads, too, grimpie, and I assume you're not riding your bicycle on the grass everywhere?If the $800M figure you gave is accurate, grimpie, that's about $289.43 per year, less than $1 per day, for you and each of the other citizens of Kansas that benefit from the roads. Actually, it's even less, since there are plenty of interstate travelers who contribute to the sales and other GR taxes that make up that $800M. Seems like a pretty good deal.Yes, you drive less than I do. Guess what, grimpie, I pay more for the roads than you do. I pay all those user taxes and fees that make up the bulk of road costs. AND I pay sales and property taxes (including on two cars), income taxes, and all the other sources of GR. And no matter how you slice it, grimpie, you use and benefit from the roads, I neither use or benefit from the bus. Even if we did give you your money back for the roads, the vast majority of us that use them could do without your $1/day. But the tiny percentage of you that use the mT can't get by without soaking the rest of us.

justthefacts 9 years, 7 months ago

Not saying we won't give rides to people we need them and do not think that buses for people are not good/useful things. Many people understand that not having a transit system is a bad idea for a city that wants to help out the poor and/or be seen as progressive. We could really use buses etc. Just like we could really use lots of smooth and handy roads. We like lots of things. Doesn't mean we can afford to pay for them.If we want to keep buses running, cut out or down on other things. We cannot keep taxing people who are already worried about how they are going to be able to afford eating.

BigPrune 9 years, 7 months ago

Should government officials be lobbying the population to pass this tax? Shouldn't they be quiet? Why is there a sign saying "Vote Yes to 2 & 3" in the lobby of the old courthouse? Isn't this the same place you register to vote? With 92% of Douglas County's residents registered to vote, why must we hear the proponents for the T at all? Certainly they know the fix is in and they will get their precious Empty T Bus tax. It's over for the fiscal conservatives.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 9 years, 7 months ago

Whenever I cross town in the comfort of my personal vehicle, air blowing, music flowing, on Kansas days seemingly always too hot or too cold to be on foot, and I catch glimpses of less equipped fellows waiting at predetermined places, I find comfort in the knowledge that the bus is on its way.

Godot 9 years, 7 months ago

The federal government is broke and in debt beyond our wildest nightmares. There will be no Federal money for the T next year, or the next or the one after that.Walk. This is a small town.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

JackRipper (Anonymous) says:"blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah"Well, jacquie, at least you've finally come out and admitted that you're not just pro-mass-transit, you're anti-car. How uncharacteristically honest of you. It's amusing, in a sad way, reading your rants. You say the 99% of the people who want cars are trying to eliminate the options for the 1% who don't. And what you want is for you and the rest of your 1%ers to take away the options for the other 99%. You rant incessantly about how the country is too far in debt, and you want to spend hundreds of billions, trillions, on a high speed intercity and urban light rail system.Stay in your delusional little world, jacquie, it's always good for a chuckle here and there. But twenty years from now I'll still be driving, along with most of the rest of the population. The cars may have battery packs or hydrogen cells instead of fuel tanks, but they'll still be driven on roads. And you still won't have your choo-choos. You will, however, be continuing to rant, probably about how the great government conspiracy subsidized electric vehicles and now you can't get gasoline for your Edsel. Or was it coal for your Steamer? Maybe you can't get hay anymore for your horses, jacquie, or can't find a hitching post downtown?You've never had much in the way of cognitive capacity, jacquie. And I know you'll go on to regale us with more ranting. But 100% of the people in the country pay for the roads because 100% of them benefit from them. Unfortunately, 100% of the people are being asked to fund Amtrak and the mT when only 1% of them use it. I know in your bizarre, fixed-delusional world that's somehow fair, jacquie. Which is why you really do need to stay on the nurses to stop forgetting your meds.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

jackie, jackie, jackie, jackie, jackie,You really should - for the sake of anyone who still cares whether you can be returned to lucid thought (although the likelihood of any such person's existence is questionable) - talk to your shrink about a med change. I hear the new atypicals are capable of wonderful things.Yes, jackie, 'my type.' 'Cause after all, I work in eastern Jackson County, nerve center of the world's financial market. I would have thought, with the stuff you keep spewing, the bailout would be right up your alley. Using tax dollars from people willing to work to prop up people who can't support themselves, investing in neighborhoods in urban cores where folks can live like good little worker bees, isn't that what you keep ranting for?Oh, you mean the car companies - you're saying the government shouldn't invest in new technologies like electric or other energy efficient private vehicles ('cause cars are baaaaad, private vehicle owners are immoral, unethical, shameful, selfish, greedy - I forget all your claims, jackie, what did I miss?). They should invest trillions in trains and public transit systems. Or, to put it another way, the government can't support energy independence if it's done in a way that 99% of the population has chosen, they can only spend our money on the modes you and your fellow 1%ers want to foist on us. Ooooookay, jackie.As I keep saying, jackie, I really do pity you. But I can't say I'll mourn too much when the nursing home staff finally unplugs your computer.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

none2 (Anonymous) says:"It is against human nature to be constantly TOLD: what to do, where to live, where to work, what line to stand in."A lot of people tend to forget that, none2, although I'm not sure it's a trait common to the nature of all humans. There are many folks like jackie and grimpie that like to point to how things are in Europe. What they also like to forget is that most of us are descended from those who chose to leave that lifestyle, who came here for room to spread out and the freedom to move around it where, when, and how they chose. But, as evidenced by people like jackie and grimpie, the occasional aberrant recessive trait rears its head, and there will always be a few who need to be told what to do, and where, when, & how to do it. The ones who feel safe retreating to the ways of days past rather than moving forward into a new future where people can make their own choices.I suppose we should pity them.If they just weren't so darned easy to laugh at!

Sigmund 9 years, 7 months ago

Sigmund (Anonymous) says: "The problem are the politicians on the current commission. They are so weak willed and weak minded they are unwilling to cut anything of substance to pay for the empTy. Constantly running deficits haven't worked out so well lately, unless you expect Gov Kathy or the Feds to bail us out. Whatever, do NOT continue without balancing the budget.""A recently released survey by the National League of Cities found that Lawrence's primary safety-net fund is below the national average, and has been declining while other communities have been rapidly building their funds.""Survey finds Lawrence's rainy-day fund not as large as most" by Chad Lawhorn, LJWorld Online, October 9, 2008.Economic reality trumps political ideology in the long run every single time. The trouble here is the "long term" may now be measured in month not years.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

JackRipper (Anonymous) says: 'On nota and your cheerleader none2"[Jackie starts his parrot impression]BTW, jackie, the 'h' is the one with the little line that sticks up on the left, the 'n' has the line that's the same size of the rest of the letter. See, some of don't think schoolin' and such is something we should have to sacrifice like you old folks in the 'great' generation did."Don't you see it was the government getting involved in the first place that lead to what we have now."jackie, as someone obviously old enough to remember, it's a shame you're feeble mind has lost so much (again, please, please remember to take your Aricept). Since you've forgotten, you might look it up sometime (have someone help you spell 'Google'). In its first incarnation, the US highway system started as assigning route numbers to connected roads that were already in existence. They were expanded and improved in answer to the demand created when private car ownership came into the reach of the average person. I know you have it engraved on your tinfoil hat that 'the government' (which happens to consist of representatives of the people of this country, the ones who own and register 250,000,000 cars) killed off your choo-choos, jackie. But they died because nobody (except you and a few other old fogies who can't let go of the past and are scared to the point of moistening your adult diaper of the future) wants to ride them. Amtrak would have gone the way of the Dodo if it hadn't been for the first gas crunch, jackie. And the response? We made more fuel efficient vehicles, and abandoned the trains once again. Even when gas went to $4/gal, there were still an insignificant number of people riding the mT. You can kid yourself all you want, jackie, but you really are pathological if you think you're convincing anyone else - you're a tiny little insignificant majority trying to force everyone else to live the way you had to back when fossil fuels only got burned if they were struck by lightning when grazing.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 7 months ago

Question #20.2 percent for public transportationA special sales tax for public transit operations and capital investmentLawrence Transit Public transportation in Lawrence travels throughout the community to businesses, educational institutions and employment areas. With a dedicated funding source, the City will have the resources to merge the transit system with the University of Kansas transit system ensuring substantial continuing resources to serve both community and student needs in an integrated system.Question #30.05 percent for public transportation, expandedA special sales tax for public transit system enhancementsAdditional dedicated resources for the transit system will provide for route enhancements and vehicle and facility improvements. Examples include increased bus service frequency on busy routes and alternative fuel buses.The 0.05 percent sales tax is only effective if the 0.2 percent sales tax for transit also becomes effective. Voters can not approve only a 0.05 percent sales tax for transit purposes.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 7 months ago

"roads we have now but we mindlessly go and build more if it means some quick payoffs without any long term concerns."was found today, in archeological dig. it was carefully but raggedly imprinted on a roman tablet, over 2000 years old. the writer is unknown at this writing but is believed to be the ancient roman publicist and common complainer Jaqieripperius, known to spend his time writing strange sayings and leaving them strewn about the roman empire. archeologists for hundreds of years have puzzled over his purpose, goals, or even how he survived. they theorized that he was a traveling merchant of useless wares, today would be called a "snakeoil salesman."

bearded_gnome 9 years, 7 months ago

and, quickly before Jackieriper calls me the cheerleader of Nota, or the servant of none2, or whatever...I was against the bailout, and I do actually support the vote yes on question 2 and 3, as I believe the low ridership figures of the current T are the result of poor route, scheduling work. I believe it is important to merge with ku, and no merger will take place if the T folds. vote no and 2 fails, paratransit goes away too. ***you know nota, it really isn't fair you poking little jaqieripperius the way you do, it is not fair to make sport of the impaired, but it sure is fun? Jaqieripperius is as bad a spokesman in favor of keeping the T as is ol' merrill!

bearded_gnome 9 years, 7 months ago

okay Jaqieripperius,do I have to draw you a map? are you so humor impaired that in my sarcasm I was saying: "the same complaint could have been made two thousand years ago? I do wish you and merrill would quit posting in favor of the T votes! you guys definitely encourage the opposition!Nota is certainly right about one thing: your current meds, or self-medication with booze, just isn't cutting it!

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Hey, gnome, was that tablet by chance found next to an ancient road? You know, the ones the Roman government, in the pockets of the chariot makers, to unfairly put the litter-bearers out of business. What the heck was the big hurry, anyway?(Did you notice that jackie-boy completely ignored none2's mention of roads existing for thousands of years? Kinda' strange, according to jackie they didn't exist until the good old US government built them to entice people into horseless carriages to put his choo-choos out of business.)****"Oh yeah, nota you were pushing for the bail out.""Pushing?" Hardly, jackie. But then, once again, your poor reading skills are in evidence. (Musta' been tough trying to learn your letters an' such by whale-oil lamps, jackie.) I made one post saying that it was perfectly justified to use tax dollars to attempt a repair of the financial markets because 1) it wasn't just the rich, but most regular people who are being affected, and, more importantly, 2) it was everybody's fault. But then, it hardly surprises me you'd come out in favor of abdicating personal responsibility, jackie, after your pompous claims to be the poster boy for it. Hardly the first time you've leaked odorous substances out of both sides of your diaper."your type, the live for today and bill the future"I don't even have a credit card, jackie. I pay for what I use. Unlike you. Oh, I know, I could stop that evil commuting that allows me to provide for my family, take a fast food job, and support the wife and kids on welfare. Like you. But you know, unlike you, I have enough pride to want to pay my own way.(continued)

bearded_gnome 9 years, 7 months ago

Your immeasurable naivete, near total ignorance, and stubborn insistence on arguing issues you have absolutely no comprehension of do more to perpetuatethat stereotype than anything I could say, jackie.--- truer words n'er were spoken. yes, Nota, I did see that comment by Nota. it kinda makes Jaqieripperius into the eternal complainer! "where's the beef?"yes, that tablet was found at the ancient intersection of two ancient roman roads: one led to the circus; the other led to the bakeries. it was apparently set there as a protest that the building of roman roads led to sprawl. you know, when roman soldiers marched a full day, then took off their packs, and sprawled out because they were tired! it seems it was posted there by Jaqieripperius because he felt the brick manufactures were putting out of business the donkey drivers. I wonder, did Jaqieripperius then protest when tallships using sail power were replaced by that evil steam power, belching clouds of smoke, carrying the danger of explosions. suddenly, sailors were replaced by gritty dirty boilermen and engineers. yeah, he probably protested that too!

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

(continued)"The reason, using your figure, the same nonsense as needing 250million cars a day when we only have probably 100million people to drive them in the first place..."Psssst - jackie - this isn't the 1965 anymore (that was the year the number of licensed drivers in the US passed 100 million, jackie). Have the nurses change your Lady Bird calendar. FYI (Have someone under 85 explain what that means), there were approximately 240,000,000 licensed drivers in the US in 2006. In 1972 the number of licensed drivers was surpassed by the number of registered vehicles, because some people (like myself) own more than one. And maybe you have been keeping up with current events (like the last century or so), jackie, but believe it or not, both numbers are growing - because the population is growing."using 99% you still can't comprehend that people drive because there is no other real option."They had other options, jackie. They abandoned them. They had a choice and made it. They chose something better, something they wanted, instead of what you tried to tell them they had to settle for."I know it is hard to comprehend but when other options are available people will use them."Really, jackie?How many people use the mT, jackie? How many people ride any Amtrak route compared to the number of people that make the same trip using cars and/or planes? The inter-city bus share of the travel market is three times what Amtrak's is, jackie. Nobody wants to ride your choo-choos. And nobody wants to ride your buses. Oh, people (like you) blather about it a lot, but I notice they're not actually plunking down their money for a ride."so far us hicks in Kansas and Missouri"Your immeasurable naivete, near total ignorance, and stubborn insistence on arguing issues you have absolutely no comprehension of do more to perpetuate that stereotype than anything I could say, jackie.

notajayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

I wonder how long it will be until jackie-boy refers to gnome as another 'cheerleader' (you could at least try to come up with some original stuff, jackie). I wonder if he'll even notice that gnome and I are on opposite sides of the bus issue - agreeing only on one thing - that jackripper doesn't know what he's talking about.

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