Archive for Saturday, November 29, 2008
Saudis set poor example for religious tolerance
November 29, 2008
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If you are the undisputed monarch of a wealthy nation, you probably think you can say or do most anything without repercussion. But when King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia stood before the United Nations earlier this month to proclaim his opposition to “religious intolerance,” anyone listening would have to think: Of all the gall!
Abdullah actually sponsored the event: a U.N. conference on interfaith dialogue. The amazing thing is that any Saudi who advocates “interfaith dialog” is likely to be arrested, tried and executed — beheaded by sword.
President Bush was among the heads of state who attended Abdullah’s conference. Oh, the price we have to pay to assure an uninterrupted supply of oil. Abdullah’s “interfaith dialogue” is the most compelling recent argument for launching a major new program to achieve energy independence.
Abdullah didn’t simply wake up one morning and decide to promote religious plurality. Even the conference’s origins were cynical. Remember, last spring, when a senior Saudi cleric who is a member of Abdullah’s government issued a fatwa calling for the execution of two journalists? In their newspaper, they had suggested that religions other than Islam are worthy of respect.
They haven’t been killed, but not surprisingly the fatwa caused a stir — another case when the world happened to notice one of the unconscionable acts in the name of religion that the Saudi government commits day after day. (Remember another one, the court decision a year ago to administer 200 lashes to a woman who had been gang raped? The White House, ignoring the oil for a moment, called the ruling “outrageous.”)
Abdullah could not easily interfere with a religious edict. So instead he decided to rise above the fray last spring and call for this conference. No one at the United Nations chose to discuss Saudi Arabia’s own record of religious bigotry. So allow me.
Saudi Arabia, it happens, is the world’s most intolerant state on religious matters. Sure, many other nations are guilty of atrocities committed in the name of religion. We humans have a long and sorry history of that. Today, however, only in Saudi Arabia are these rules institutionalized on such a broad scale — and enforced. Consider a few recent decisions both amusing and grave.
Last summer, the kingdom banned the ownership of cats and dogs. Why on earth? It turns out that the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (a.k.a., the religious police) found that men out walking their dogs were apt to chat with a woman they happened to pass in the park.
Othman al-Othman, general manager of the religious police, told the Saudi paper Al-Hayat that he wanted to staunch “the rising phenomenon of men using cats and dogs to make passes at women.” Imagine!
At least violations of this new rule are not punishable by execution. Satellite-television operators are not so fortunate. In September, the state’s Supreme Judiciary Council called for death by sword for satellite TV operators who air “shows that contain obvious heresy and promote licentiousness and wantonness,” as one of the clerics put it. The programs that so offended the sheiks, it seemed, were Turkish soap operas quite popular in Saudi Arabia.
So far, no satellite television programmers have fallen under the sword — not because of any reticence in Saudi Arabia to use capital punishment for religious “crimes.” The kingdom, in fact, holds a lust for the death penalty (much like Texas and some other states).
Amnesty International, in a report published last month, found that Saudi Arabia has one of the world’s highest rates of execution, as measured per capita — at least 158 last year. Many of the condemned are found guilty of religious crimes. Amnesty cited several cases, among them:
• Mustafa Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in Arar, who was arrested and beheaded because he had been observed carrying a copy of the Quran to read in the bathroom.
• Sabri Bogday, a Turkish owner of a barbershop in Jeddah, who was overheard “swearing at the Lord in public.” The court sentenced him to death.
• An unnamed Indian woman, a mother of four, who was convicted of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning for getting pregnant after her husband died.
In his address to the U.N. conference, Abdullah implored: “We say today with a single voice that the religions through which Almighty God sought to bring happiness to mankind should not be turned into instruments to cause misery.”
If only the king would follow his own advice.
— Joel Brinkley is a former Pulitzer Prize-winning foreign correspondent for The New York Times and now a professor of journalism at Stanford University. His e-mail address is brinkley@foreign-matters.com.
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29 November 2008
at 8:48 a.m.
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bondmen (Anonymous) says…
In fact it is much more than mere intolerence behind Saudi treatment - it is the policy of thousands of religious Imams on the oil rich Arabian peninsula. Terror recruitment and financing drives suspected of funding terrorists around the world is a charge made by none other than Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Bin Abdul Aziz himself. See “Terror financing runs wild in Saudi Arabia” at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.ph… Arabia is busy financing the building of a network of mosques around the globe. It is in these places where local Muslim men, formerly peacful in character, are fanaticized into violence by hate filled Imams preaching destruction towards the West; be they atheist, Jew, Christian or Hindu. This global network is rapidly becoming a global problem for people who wish to live in peace with their neighbors. So far all foreign Christian requests to build a church in Saudi Arabia have been denied. We must continue to press them to allow their people to hear God's Word found in the Holy Bible. See “Saudis to build mosque in Moscow; Russians want church in Arabia” at http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch…
30 November 2008
at 12:11 a.m.
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Mimis_friend (Anonymous) says…
“Saudi Arabia is busy financing the building of a network of mosques around the globe. It is in these places where local Muslim men, formerly peacful in character, are fanaticized into violence by hate filled Imams preaching destruction towards the West; be they atheist, Jew, Christian or Hindu. This global network is rapidly becoming a global problem for people who wish to live in peace with their neighbors.”This is absolutely false. that is not true. I attend a mosque every week, and never in America, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Pakistan or any where else I have travelled have I heard one word in any language defending, assisting or supporting in anyway the terror brought about by Al-Queda and others. NEVER! I have always heard men and women denounce terrorism and denounce any kind of killing of innocents and non-combatants. This is prescribed in the Koran. And Suicide is strictly prohibited. Read it yourself. The People in the West who are afraid of Islam are chasing the wrong devil. The true devil in this is the misunderstanding and misuse of things religious by all faiths and this is what must be stopped. I won't deny that there are many people who hate what the West does to the Arab and Muslim world, but sometimes I wonder who started the fray? The support of Israel to take Arab lands is what started all of this and it is time to settle that dispute and each side must come to terms with what could be achieved if that happened. Each side must give up something and stop this bloodbath.But thinking that Muslims are intolerant and unaccepting of other faiths is incorrect. If everyone took the time to read what is said in the Koran you would see that the Christian and Jew and other monotheistic religions are the people of the book and should be respected and supported by Muslims. In most cases, they are!However, and just like other religions, not every follower is educated and understands his true religion. There are bigots and terrorists in every religion. Fundamentalists and extremists abound no matter the religion. This is what must be stopped. It does not move the politics forward to a better end to say one thing and do another. This is true of Saudi leaders. But let me say this one thing in closing: Saudis have been separated from the rest of the world for hundreds of years. They say and do things because they are not used to having the genders mix in a social setting. Give them time, that is changing.
30 November 2008
at 10:30 a.m.
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bondmen (Anonymous) says…
Fortunately for you your experience is different than the Jihadias innocent people encounter around the world Mimis_friend. I point you not to my words but to “Mumbai terrorists were 'funded by cash raised in UK mosques'” at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic… am sorry Mimis_friend but in the name of your religion one of the Mumbai killers said “'I was told to kill to my last breath': Captured terrorist's account of Mumbai massacre reveals plan was to kill 5,000” at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic… do not fear your religion Mimis_friend. One should not fear the one who can take your life; instead fear the one who can take your soul!
30 November 2008
at 10:50 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Mimis_friend (Anonymous) says… “They say and do things because they are not used to having the genders mix in a social setting. Give them time, that is changing.”Marion writes:And, Mimi, how many more innocents must die while the primitive, brutal and murderous religion which is Muslim undergoes the changes you suggest?How much “time” does Muslim need to stop stoning people to death, hanging people from cranes, indiscriminately bombing people, plotting and carrying out acts of terrorism on a global scale?How much “time” are you going to give the future victims?
30 November 2008
at 10:55 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
“How much “time” does Muslim need to stop stoning people to death, hanging people from cranes, indiscriminately bombing people, plotting and carrying out acts of terrorism on a global scale?”Probably the same amount of time that the Christians who run this country need to stop doing many of the same things, only on a much greater scale.
30 November 2008
at 11:05 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
So much for the expected rationalisation and equivocation from the Bozo!This is the way that it is………………………..if you do not clearly and openly oppose the terror of fundamentalist Muslim, you support it.It makes no difference if you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shinto or Church of Bob…..If you equivocate, rationalise or make excuses for Muslim terror, you are supporting that same Muslim terror and you are a terrorist.
30 November 2008
at 11:05 a.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
mimis_friend = typical apologist rhetoric.
30 November 2008
at 11:14 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
Looks like you've taken a full dose of stupid pills this morning, Marion.I condemn terror and violence by anyone, muslim, christian or atheist.
30 November 2008
at 11:56 a.m.
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Fort_Aubrey (Anonymous) says…
Marion is still defending the Crusades.
30 November 2008
at 11:59 a.m.
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Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says…
Will BO, Pelosi and Reid extend a hand to say, Southern Baptists or Catholics like they do for CAIR? They get a special conference room in the capitol and everything (CAIR, that is)! I guess separation of church and state only applies to Christian religions rooted in the US. Afterall, they're just a buncha dangerous extremist wackos, not peace loving and tolerant like Islam.
30 November 2008
at 12:15 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
I have a feeling, Tom, that any shred of truth in your last post has been twisted beyond recognition.
30 November 2008
at 12:29 p.m.
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Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says…
Are you saying that the Pelosi/Reid congress has not given CAIR conference rooms in the capitol bldg? CAIR has an office three blocks from there. Why would they need to convene in the capitol bldg?
30 November 2008
at 12:36 p.m.
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Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says…
In case you don't believe me.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/mar/11/20070311-113356-1660r/
30 November 2008
at 12:53 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
They weren't “given” a conference room, Tom. They have been given temporary use of conference rooms to, of all things, have conferences. And why would they do it in congressional space? Probably because congress people wanted to be informed on subjects germane to their jobs, and American/Islamic relations certainly qualifies there. Although clearly to many of your ilk, the only good muslim is a dead muslim, so what's to talk about, right?
30 November 2008
at 1 p.m.
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Hadley_says (Anonymous) says…
Washington Times. You mean that Moonie newspaper?
30 November 2008
at 1:39 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Fort_Aubrey (Anonymous) says… Marion is still defending the Crusades.”Marion writes:Thank you for the Daily Big Lie, Fort!I have never “defended” the Crusades and challenge you to show that I have or apologise for your lie.
30 November 2008
at 5:03 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
Mimis_friend (Anonymous) says…”…I won't deny that there are many people who hate what the West does to the Arab and Muslim world, but sometimes I wonder who started the fray? The support of Israel to take Arab lands is what started all of this…”=====================================So before 1948, everything was ok? I don't think so. While there wasn't a holocaust outside of Europe, Jews were persecuted in muslim countries prior to the state if Israel. Likewise, I don't recall a modern country that has made it a crime to practice a faith other than the dominate one of the country with the exception of some muslim countries:1) Iran:http://blog.beliefnet.com/reformedchicksblabbing/2008/07/16-muslims-converts-to-christi.html2) Afganistan:http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june06/faith_3-23.html3) Saudi Arabia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia4) Turkey:http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013856.php5) Indonesia:http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/222638.aspx6) Pakistan:http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/juneweb-only/123-43.0.html7) Sudan:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?article_id=266728) Algeria:http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-06-18-christian-converts-trial-postponed-in-algeria9) Yemen:http://www.asianews.it/index.php?art=5859&l=en10) Somalia:http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/10/28/somalia-christian-aid-worker-beheaded-for-converting-from-islam/11) Egypt: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ruli… could go on and on, but the fact of the matter is that in these modern times there is still strong support to penalize people who are non-muslims and harsh punishments for anybody who leaves islam.The fact that you can freely practice your Islamic faith HERE without fear of penalties of the law just shows one more proof that as a whole the Islamic world is intolerant of other faiths. As for Israel starting the whole thing is just one more example of anti-jewish sentiments in the muslim world. There is archeological evidence that the jews in deed where in Israel centuries ago. Modern Israel isn't some 18th or 19th century decision by Jews to have Mediterranean coastal resort homes. There are more Kurds than there are Palestinians, but because it is a muslim on muslim issue it doesn't get discussed that they have been denied their own country for centuries. The issues in Sudan is an issue of black vs arab muslim. Thus again, it is ignored. It is so easy for the muslims to blame the jews for their problems just like the Europeans did for centuries. However, for many of us, we are tired of hearing about it.We have muslims against Jews, Christians, Sikhs, non-monotheistic religions (ie Buddhists & Hindus). When is it going to stop? I know good muslims, but to be quite frank I think they are good despite islam.
30 November 2008
at 6:25 p.m.
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militant (Anonymous) says…
Nuke the middle east and start fresh.
30 November 2008
at 6:58 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
So, none2, are you saying that every problem in the world (or even in the middle east) these days stems from muslim intolerance? Do you agree with militant?
30 November 2008
at 8:14 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Fort_Aubrey (Anonymous) says… Marion is still defending the Crusades.”Marion writes:Hey, Jeff, you don't have to be shy!
30 November 2008
at 8:49 p.m.
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yanman (Anonymous) says…
Typical. The UN is such a joke. How do so many people still take it seriously?
30 November 2008
at 9:17 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…So, none2, are you saying that every problem in the world (or even in the middle east) these days stems from muslim intolerance? Do you agree with militant?===============================Perhaps you need to read what people write before making such comments. Did I say “every problem” anywhere in what I wrote? Also I don't remember mentioning anything nuclear? Perhaps you are confusing that with nuclear energy in Iran that someone else may have commented about.Perhaps in the future I should be a good little liberal and use emotions instead of my head to think. Then I could say every root cause for problems belonging to Zionists jews, yankee imperalists, and of course our British cohorts. Do we have a phrase for the overwhelming number of Indians that were recently killed? Maybe non-monotheistic infidels? Mimis_friend wants to justify hate towards the west and somehow not associate it with the terrorist acts. What do you think hate is? Something that people feel inside and never act upon? Why do you think the holocaust happened? The hate that a significant number of people had in Europe towards jews was acted upon. It was just in the LAST century that the pope made a statement that the “jews” do not have collective guilt for the crucifixion. Germany had reenactments of the life of Christ, where the Jews were the villains. Do you not think such tolerated hate or “excused” hate leads to violence?Even in North Africa there are arab muslims that hate us back from our first encounter with pirates about 200 years ago - not to mention those that still hold a grudge about the Crusades from almost 1000 years ago. So don't deceive yourself, even if, heaven forbid, we let the muslims destroy Israel and kill every jew that was alive, they still would have plenty of grudges. Also read up on your history, there were arab muslims that tried to link up with Nazi Germany to kill Jews in British Palestine. Had that happened, then the holocaust figure wouldn't have been just 6 million.
30 November 2008
at 10:41 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
I previously asked, “So, none2, are you saying that every problem in the world (or even in the middle east) these days stems from muslim intolerance? Do you agree with militant?”The apparent answer is “yes, and yes.”
30 November 2008
at 10:55 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…I previously asked, “So, none2, are you saying that every problem in the world (or even in the middle east) these days stems from muslim intolerance? Do you agree with militant?”The apparent answer is “yes, and yes.”=================================The only thing apparent to me is that you have a reading and comprehension problem. Perhaps English is a second language to you? There are classes out there available if that is your issue.In the mean time, perhaps you can find a history book in whatever language is native to you so that you can try to understand historical world events.
1 December 2008
at 7:07 a.m.
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bondmen (Anonymous) says…
Robert Spencer writes:” “Unfortunately, we have yet to see a distinguished popular condemnation in the traditional Arab or Muslim communities that strongly rejects what is happening in the name of Islam”Who said that? What Islamophobe dared to call into question the sincerity or adequacy of Muslim condemnations of terrorism?Would you believe Khaled al-Jenfawi, a columnist for Kuwait's Al-Seyassah daily?Anyway, in this story, “Muslims condemn Mumbai attacks, worry about image,” by Karin Laub for The Associated Press, November 30, Muslim leaders and spokesmen worry a great deal about the possibility that the jihad attacks in Mumbai by a Tiny Minority of Extremists™ will lead people to think ill of Islam.Of course, there is one thing they could do about that that would actually begin to make people think better of Islam, but no one even whispers anything about doing it in this article or anywhere else. Imams could begin to saturate mosques and madrassas with the message that jihad warfare is never justified, that the imperative to subjugate unbelievers under the rule of Islamic law must be decisively rejected, and that peaceful coexistence as equals with unbelievers is to be maintained indefinitely.”And Spencer goes on: “But these things will not happen. They're not even on the table. Instead, many of the same people quoted in this article work to brand any non-Muslim who points out the ways in which jihadists use Islamic texts and teachings to justify violence and supremacism as a “bigot” or a “racist.” And that in itself, however effective a tactic it may be among the ignorant and easily intimidated, is revealing.”Mimis_friend's comment is a prime example of this type of thinking!More at: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/…
1 December 2008
at 8:52 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
“In the mean time, perhaps you can find a history book in whatever language is native to you so that you can try to understand historical world events.”I have read many, and the lessons are clear. We got where we are because of bigotry, stupidity and greed and the violence it provokes, not by just “the bad guys,” but by those you would like to consider “good guys.”Your focus solely on Germans and Muslims is too narrow an explanation for how we got to the world that now exists, and appears to be nothing but a rationalization for treating muslims, most of whom are innocent of any wrongdoing, the same way in which you complain that Jews have been treated.What goes around comes around, and as long as Muslims can quite justifiably see Americans the same way that the Jews saw the Germans, we'll continue to not like what comes back our way from them.
1 December 2008
at 8:59 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
How about this version?—”Of course, there is one thing they could do about that that would actually begin to make people think better of Christianity, but no one even whispers anything about doing it in this article or anywhere else. Preachers could begin to saturate churches and Christian schools with the message that US imperial warfare is never justified, that the imperative to subjugate unbelievers under the rule of US Imperial law must be decisively rejected, and that peaceful coexistence as equals with unbelievers is to be maintained indefinitely.”
1 December 2008
at 9:21 a.m.
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gphawk89 (Anonymous) says…
I'd bet the number is way higher than the 158 executions that AI reported. Not to mention the number of Saudis who undergo non-lethal chopping (hands). I had the displeasure of walking through Deera Square in Riyadh a couple of years ago. No executions going on at the time but it was quite creepy knowing what went on there every week.My favorite thing is the “death letter” that anyone travelling to Saudi has to sign. Basically a waiver that states something like, “Death to drug traffickers - no exceptions.”
1 December 2008
at 9:25 a.m.
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gphawk89 (Anonymous) says…
“Probably the same amount of time that the Christians who run this country need to stop doing many of the same things, only on a much greater scale.”Yeah, wow, I saw like three or four bodies hanging from cranes just this morning on my drive in to work. And the stonings around here are getting ridiculous. Whatever…
1 December 2008
at 9:33 a.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“none2 (Anonymous) says… So before 1948, everything was ok? I don't think so. While there wasn't a holocaust outside of Europe, Jews were persecuted in muslim countries prior to the state if Israel.”Yeah… don't forget that a certain group allied itself with Hitler during WWII and helped him out with his Jewish/British problem in the area. Common enemies and all that.
1 December 2008
at 9:36 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
“Yeah, wow, I saw like three or four bodies hanging from cranes just this morning on my drive in to work. And the stonings around here are getting ridiculous. Whatever…”So do you live in Baghdad?