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Archive for Saturday, June 14, 2008

Lifetime of memories destroyed in house fire

Family of 10 displaced; home was not insured

Gary Roit, left, consoles Shannan McCawley on Friday as they clean out the charred remains of McCawley's house at 1141 N.Y. A fund has been established at Douglas County Bank to help the family.

Gary Roit, left, consoles Shannan McCawley on Friday as they clean out the charred remains of McCawley's house at 1141 N.Y. A fund has been established at Douglas County Bank to help the family.

June 14, 2008

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Fire damage estimated at over $100,000

Damage from a fire at a home Thursday night in east Lawrence is estimated at more than $100,000. Enlarge video

It was a night of highs and lows for Shannan McCawley and her family.

Her son and niece received their GEDs on Thursday night. Then, she received two text messages telling her that her home at 1141 N.Y. was on fire. Lawrence fire officials said Friday that the blaze was due to faulty electrical wiring.

The house she grew up in, where she lives now with her fiance, seven children ages 2 to 17 and her son's girlfriend, was in flames.

A day later, after spending the night with relatives, the family was dazed.

The uninsured home sustained an estimated $106,000 in damage, but McCawley said, "We're blessed, we're very blessed. We all had faith that (God) had us out of the house for a reason."

As McCawley and her children attended the GED graduation ceremony, her fiance, Richard Turner, slept upstairs. He was awakened by the smoke detector.

Turner said he looked for the children, then remembered the family was out of the house. He made his way downstairs, seeing thick smoke and the reflection of flames off the stove. He thinks the blaze started behind the refrigerator.

Firefighters arrived on scene about 7:40 p.m. and declared the scene under control at 8:14 p.m.

Turner said he was grateful that a drawback of the early 20th century home - asbestos-ridden plaster - saved him. He theorized that the material held up better against the flames than what is used to build houses today.

The hardest thing to accept, said Turner and McCawley, is that this all could have been avoided.

In March, they applied for a loan from the city's Neighborhood Resources Division to repair old wiring, remove asbestos and complete other improvement projects.

McCawley claims they were initially approved. But a few weeks later, after an inspection team surveyed the home, McCawley said that approval was rescinded because the work needed to rehab the home exceeded the $25,000 grant.

"The worst part is it's my mama's house," she said, "and I feel like if we got the assistance we needed, it wouldn't have happened."

Larry Hamm, the city's housing projects coordinator, said the family was never approved for a loan.

"Nobody's approved for anything before we sit down with them," he said, adding that the cost to repair the home would have put a burden on both the program and the family.

The house is not a total loss, but the family is not sure how it will rebuild.

The assistance of family, neighbors and the Red Cross may help.

Turner said he was on the phone with family from Lawrence to Atlanta on Thursday night. Mintoy Tolbert, a neighbor who said she called the house a second home as a child, said friends plan on starting a charity fund at Douglas County Bank. Additionally, she donated some of her children's clothes to the family.

"I don't have much, but I'm willing to do what I can," she said.

The family lost all of its photographs, many of the children's toys and many of the possessions left by McCawley's mother, who died several years ago.

"It's kind of a long road ahead," Turner said. "Patience and prayer is what's going to get us through this."

Comments

finestack 5 years, 10 months ago

To Shannon and Kids:We are so sorry to have heard about this tragic accident. All of our prayers and thoughts are with you from Wisconsin. Thankfully everyone is safe, and we know you have the love of many friends, neighbors and family members to help get you through this - yet another hurdle in life for you all. We will be here, too.To our past neighbors and friends in Lawrence: How ashamed we are that even a single resident of that proud town would take the time to post malignant words against these human beings in your midst. Are you so self-absorbed that you believe a few ounces of your hatred will damn the outpouring of love now flowing to the aid of struggling and injured people? Or do you feel as if some of the glass in your house has built up enough plaque and filth to protect from the stones sure to come back your way? These are rhetorical questions - no one will care for your answers. Keep them in your own mind, and what's left of your heart.All those who have shown compassion for our good friends, thank you for sharing it with them. It also uplifts those of us who are far away and can't reach out directly. If you have the means to go the next step, please seek out an avenue to help in more ways. They will surely need it.The Finestacks

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Cynthia Schott 5 years, 10 months ago

Really, people. Have a heart. These people are fellow human beings... with feelings. With the way the economy is going, we may all be in similar situations.Cindy

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gweezy 5 years, 10 months ago

to hilary.... What? that didn't make sense...but that figures, like I said pathetic. People shouldn't judge this family..as I said before. And thats what alot of these comments are doing.

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hawkperchedatriverfront 5 years, 10 months ago

Pogo, do you have any information as to what the total amount of salaries for Neighborhood Resoureces is? Also, do you have on hand the information about the money that was used to remodel a house on ElDorado Drive for the "elderly" woman. Remember, the house that was getting a bathroom update but was not going to be handicapped accessible. The house that is just a stones throw from the old Maupintour Hdqtrs? Wasn't it around $35,000 and the amount to be forgiven over a certain number of years. Yes, I do recall something like that and Jim Henry was on the commission then. Our city commission is totally responsible for the continued whoring of the five target neighborhoods. Then when someone wants to come in a demolish the whored out structures, there is outcry to "save" it. and what will be on the vacant lot. What is the total amount of salaries being spent to administer 1.2 million.?

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costello 5 years, 10 months ago

Godot says: "To the JW management. Block all comment on stories where the loss is so local, so tragic and so fresh."I'll second that. Free speech does not justify the ignorant and hurtful comments that are made on this forum after fires, accidents, suicides, etc. The people involved and their loved ones are reading these forums. The discussions aren't productive; they're just mean. Apparently there are some dunderheads in this town who believe every nasty thought that flits through their feeble minds needs to be shared with the world at large. They seem to completely lack the sense of decency which would curb their tongues. I don't know why the LJWorld gives these folks a public forum to abuse their neighbors.

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costello 5 years, 10 months ago

"Lord forbid, if one of these children had parished in the fire, you would not be making these rude comments."Unfortunately they probably would. This crew is brutal.

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wezie53 5 years, 10 months ago

shannon call mama louise please

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wezie53 5 years, 10 months ago

I know this family. Shannon is a very hard working mother.She takes care and loves her children very much stay off her butt, alot of people couldn't handle the things she has already gone through.her mother was a good woman buthad alot of health issues which made her fall behind. Please be kind to these people they do deserve it.Thank you

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HootyWho 5 years, 10 months ago

Everyone deserves a chance, i guess the city thought the family couldn't pay back the loan, ,, seems like it would have been a good idea to fix the wiring so it would have been a safe place to live, especially with 7 children in the house. As a single mother, i know what its like to get behind in bills, I have a section 8, if it weren't for that, i couldn't afford to pay rent in Lawrence KS, and before anybody says anything, i attended college, but still don't make much money, but i do work.

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littleone 5 years, 10 months ago

For the family...I am sorry for your loss...I'm sure you are thanking god everyday that you still have your lives..For the other morons on here...Lord forbid, if one of these children had parished in the fire, you would not be making these rude comments. Sure, they were down on their luck, sure, they had several kids, but whose fricking business is it of yours. I just find it hard to believe that some people would kick them in the gut with these comments, when they lost everything. Assistance is just that, ASSISTANCE. regardless of the circumstances. Now, if she was sitting home, smoking crack, and abusing the system (like alot of people do), I would probably have a different perspective. But, I cant see that with this story. My daughter gets assistance. With alot of circumstances surrounding her need for it, lord forbid if anyone, and i mean, ANYONE, ever questioned why she was getting it, well, I would have to do some serious butt whooping. Because nobody knows the CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!

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KlusterfawkOFTHEUSA 5 years, 10 months ago

are any of you mouthy scum gonna help these people out?Nobody cares about all of your google data.My prayer, "God, teach these greedy people of Lawrence a lesson,AMEN"

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profwriter 5 years, 10 months ago

That $25K would have been a loan NOT a handout. It's certainly clear who has expectations here and what a surprise it's the miserably negative people who feed their overinflated egos by spewing hostility on others. The lack of compassion/empathy from such hyper-bloated & hemroid-ridden windbags is quite sad. I'd rather lose everything than have whatever it is that belongs to the intellectually, emotionally & spiritually ugly.To the family I am sorry for your loss. May the blessings to come to you far exceed your anguish.

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tonyab311 5 years, 10 months ago

I'm sorry, I would like to thank the ones who had nice things to say....And for the others we are not asking for hand outs or your pitty, we know this going to be a long road for us but we are strong and we are going to make it.Tonya Beard

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tonyab311 5 years, 10 months ago

I am upset with a lot of you who like to judge people you don't know. My sister has lost ever thing and all you can say is she should stop having so many kids. what the hell does that have to do with a house burning down. for one, she has a heart unlike a lot of you. One of those kids isn't even hers (the girls mom couldn't take care of her so my sister, who could not see a child on the street took her in). As far as the insurance, health problems and other things not under her control my mother got behind on the taxes and died. So she has been working on that too. So yes, she got behind............ are you telling me NO ONE out there has done that??????Tonya Beard

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toughangel41 5 years, 10 months ago

Exactly... thank you everyone with the kind hearts and thoughtful prayers and South? sorry your such a bitter person that thrives on other peoples tragedy's your so judgmental but I've heard your ignorance before so enough said... Have a great day !" I " rest "MY" case

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bearded_gnome 5 years, 10 months ago

"patience and prayer." yes, you need that. and hope you will have the strength to keep going. this is a terrible loss. every day, make good choices. of course, some of those posting on here already think they fully understand your circumstances, and throw a lot of rude and unwelcome free advice.it is worth every cent you paid for it! Yes, sad story, and I wish them the best: but I do find little sympathy for those who throughout their lives irresponsibly make decisions and find personalmeaning and value in a lifestyle characterized by out of control breeding. That is a BIG part of this whole mess they are in. A BIG part.amazing. this woman is apparently planning to marry a man. is apparently trying hard to make choices that are good ones, difficult given choices she made before. "out of control breeding" nice little catch phrase. you probably also believe humankind is virus upon the earth, too. sorry for your loss, especially the pictures and keepsakes. but thank God no one was harmed! from this point, keep trying to make the responsible choices, and talk a lot with positive people who can mentor you and help you to understand how to make things right.

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momieslilgirls 5 years, 10 months ago

I grew up with these people and I feel really bad for them. I don't have 7 children myself but she was a teen mom you guys and you have no clue all the fixing up they have done over the years. Of course they couldn't afford to fix the wiring because she is still dealing with the finacial loss of losing a parent. Before you go down the life insurance road I too had a parent pass that couldn't get life insurance and it's been over a year and I am still paying for his death. You all should really mind you business when it comes to her family cuz you don't know them and until you have spent a day in her shoes you have no idea. Really people can be so mean and hurtful, every child that lived in that house went to school, some kids are hard to reach and when they become old enough to skip and such it's really hard to tie them down and make them go to school.

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SouthSide 5 years, 10 months ago

The story states... "The house she grew up in, where she lives now with her fiance, seven children ages 2 to 17 and her son's girlfriend" ..... What's this about "fiance"? I'd like to hear the story. ....... What's this about "her son's girlfriend"? Her son is at least 17. How old is the girlfriend? .... I rest my case.

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Rabbitgoesthump 5 years, 10 months ago

You got 7 people living in a house a sons girlfriend, and 1 who is getting there GED (meaning they prob where not in school alot) someone should have figured out how to fix that lighting..."We're blessed, we're very blessed. We all had faith that (God) had us out of the house for a reason."Maybe god was striking down saying stop having kids... and take responsibility like having them graduate high school... or taking better care of the things you have...

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Godot 5 years, 10 months ago

To the JW management. Block all comment on stories where the loss is so local, so tragic and so fresh.

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SouthSide 5 years, 10 months ago

toughangel41... And what does your "God bless" mean? So your only answer to this difficult situation is spiritual mysticism? I say educate people so that more do not find themselves in this situation. Let this be a lesson. The parents were irresponsible and you are heartless and enabling others to behave the same way. Women are more than just baby makers.

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toughangel41 5 years, 10 months ago

I agree with so many people on here. It is a horrible and sad thing to go thru first her mama passes away and now she loses her childhood home. Why can't some of you have a little sympathy and compassion for this family. Yes they have had hard times but managed to pull thru she is a strong woman and is very proud of her beautiful children God bless her and her family. As for the idiot that said "Yes, sad story, and I wish them the best: but I do find little sympathy for those who throughout their lives irresponsibly make decisions and find personal meaning and value in a lifestyle characterized by out of control breeding. That is a BIG part of this whole mess they are in. A BIG part." well your just that... a complete idiot with no heart

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dandelion 5 years, 10 months ago

Oh isn't it so much fun to make fun of those who aren't as smart as you. Doesn't it make you feel big? Did you make fun of kids in school too? Call them dummies? Make fun of their clothes? Fortunately this town isn't full of jerks like you all who are so superior to the rest of the world.

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Godot 5 years, 10 months ago

MD, the "list" you say the insurance companies keep is just a credit report.

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SouthSide 5 years, 10 months ago

Yes, sad story, and I wish them the best... but I do find little sympathy for those who throughout their lives irresponsibly make decisions and find personal meaning and value in a lifestyle characterized by OUT OF CONTROL BREEDING. That is a BIG part of this whole mess they are in. A BIG part.

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Jay_Z 5 years, 10 months ago

Very sad story. I wish this family all the best.

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therealAI 5 years, 10 months ago

Thank you, Sizzleplate. I have to agree with you. I know a couple of people, who, years ago, were completely down-on-their-luck, and couldn't afford a darn thing, let along insurance. State wouldn't help......of course....Things changed for them, and it took people willing to help get them back on their feet, and now they are completely on their own, without help from the government, or any individuals.These people probably never had a freakin' break, let alone anyone who gave a darn. Anyway, thoughts are with them tonight.

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jimincountry 5 years, 10 months ago

It's just sad, no matter how it's come to this.............I wish them good fortune going forward.

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hilary 5 years, 10 months ago

A lot of you know so very little about the value of homes in this town. Also, we're not all pathetic, gweezy, so keep your generalizations to yourself as you wander the alleys at night, muttering hateful things under your breath.This is terrible, and I hope the family is able to pull together somehow. If anything else, I hope others reading the article in the same situation look to the future, and the dismal possibility of losing it all. Get homeowner's insurance! There are many different companies with various quotes. Someone will help you. I just went through it myself.

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KlusterfawkOFTHEUSA 5 years, 10 months ago

Shut up you greedy bastards and donate some money

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1Patriot 5 years, 10 months ago

That house looks like it may have been worth $30,000 to $35,000! I feel for the childern, hopefully they will be able to be more responsible as adults than their parents were. Insurance is mandatory! Maybe the neighbors should have taken up a collection to pay the insurance.It sounds like they are trying to blame anyone but themselves. If the home was so important to them as a family heirloom they should have been more responsible in keeping up with repairs. Stating it "could have all been avoided." I'd like to apply for assistance to pay for the gas I put in my vehicle to drive to work to put in a 12hr. day to make enough money to pay for the gas to drive to work! Do you think I'll get the assistance? Maybe I should just quit my job that way I won't have to work a 12hr. day to pay for the gas!Repairs exceeding $25,000? If the house had faulty wiring it was probably a fire hazard and uninsurable.

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macon47 5 years, 10 months ago

any single parent that has had 7 kidswith different fathers has dealt her own hand of cards,,, 7 kids? I don't feel I should be responsible to help foot the bill for people that can't understand why it shocks them EVERY SINGLE TIME they jab a fork into an electrical outlet, or have to rebuild for the fifteenth time in "Tornado Alley".

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gweezy 5 years, 10 months ago

Lawrence KS, such a pathetic little town. If doesn't have anything to do with KU basketball , no one cares. You don't know this womans family and circumstances. So don't be judgemental.

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sizzleplate 5 years, 10 months ago

There is way too much self-absorbed ranting going on here... Nobody knows what set of circumstances or situations this family may have been dealing with. As sad as it is, this is the cards they were dealt. Lets show some sympathy and respect for the 8 children involved.

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macon47 5 years, 10 months ago

since the gal probably inherited the house fromher mom, and she already filed for bankruptcybefore she got the house, i bet you are correct about inflated premiums.

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Multidisciplinary 5 years, 10 months ago

Insurance can be very hard to get, and if times get hard, it's imperative that the insurance be paid on time.Not because of possible fire, etc..but because if your policy is cancelled due to lack of payment, you are put on an industry wide "Do Not Insure" list. The major companies won't even consider insuring you. So then you are lucky to find some small agency who will look at your circumstances, decide if you just had a cash flow problem, or other things. If they decide to insure you, be prepared to pay twice what you were paying before.This is fact, it happened to me when I inherited a house. I managed to have the cash to pay the premiums on both houses, then didn't have the cash for the next payment. Thus cancelled.The other house then sold, and I went to get my own house insured again, and learned of "the list".Also, if a person has had to declare bankruptcy, they are put on "a list" with the insurers too. Doesn't matter that the bankruptcy had no effect on the existing insurance..they feel a person who has declared, is far more likely to file a claim later on.It's better to starve and go without, to keep up the insurace payments. Down the road, that "doing without" will pay off big in cheaper insurance rates.

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OnlyTheOne 5 years, 10 months ago

I think I detect a wee bit of cynicism and sarcasm in the writings here and I agree with about 99% of it. Too bad the citizens of Lawrence can't do something to "Smite their elders (or is it yuppies) down."

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macon47 5 years, 10 months ago

perhaps their finances did not warrant approving the loan,?like out of 3 or more adults living in a house no onewas making enough money to get a load approved?lets see if the grass roots folks will pony up thier own money to loan them?nah, they expect to get repaid too!

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Pogo 5 years, 10 months ago

Very good Max 1!How much of that money is given out to poverty pimps: Social service outfits? Plenty. All of that money is better spent in these days and times in helping income eligible applicants for the City's rehab program get their owner occupied homes fixed up to meet code.It's ill-spent to build steps or pay "coordinators" who coordinate nothing.The Lawrence Association of Neighborhoods (LAN) http://lawrenceneighborhoods.org/ coupled with the city's "neighborhood associations" are outlets for the elite who enjoy going to meetings and agreeing with each other. They haven't been proactive as they were in the '70's and that's a long time ago.The City awards money to these groups even though the groups/associations don't have to document how many members they have and because the City has not placed even a very marginal requirement that any neighborhood association must document that it has as members even 1% of the populace who occupy the area included in the "neighborhood association".The East Lawrence Neighborhood Association should be filled with shame and disgust for themselves because they're the voice of the victims of this fire to City Hall as the all potent Neighborhood Association. Where was LAN relative to the application for housing rehab assistance while we're at it? Nowhere.....that's where; Out having a meeting at someone's house and impressing each other with the bric brack about the home of the meeting sponser that's where they were. Cluck, cluck.....just like hens in the barnyard....

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max1 5 years, 10 months ago

May 7, 2008http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/may/07/sidewalk_projects_win_citys_approval/The city received $1.1 million in CDBG money for 2008, which is about $200,000 more than the city received in 2007.http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/programs/The Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) program is a flexible program that provides communities with resources to address a wide range of unique community development needs.http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/programs/entitlement/Entitlement communities develop their own programs and funding priorities. However, grantees must give maximum feasible priority to activities which benefit low- and moderate-income persons.CDBG funds may be used for activities which include, but are not limited to:¢acquisition of real property;¢relocation and demolition;¢rehabilitation of residential and non-residential structures;¢construction of public facilities and improvements, such as water and sewer facilities, streets, neighborhood centers, and the conversion of school buildings for eligible purposes;¢public services, within certain limits;¢activities relating to energy conservation and renewable energy resources; and¢provision of assistance to profit-motivated businesses to carry out economic development and job creation/retention activities.

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Pogo 5 years, 10 months ago

Larry Hamm, the city's housing projects coordinator is supervised by one Margene Swarts. It is rumoured that Swarts' salary from the City is close to or over $75,000.00 per annum. Ms. Swarts had been supervised by yet another "get rich by working for the City of Lawrence, Kansas", Victor Torres. Mr. Torres quit a few months back given he moved out of state. He was making, it is rumoured, $75,000.00 or more per annum.Now, Swarts "administers" the Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) and the HOME Investment Partnerships Program Grant (HOME), which the City receives from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).The city has a wonderful program that will help owner occupants rehab their houses. Your income has to be under a set amount and the cost of the rehab cannot exceed $25,000.00 which is an arbitrary figure that the Swarts and company has established.The Neighborhood Resource Advisory Cmte. (NRAC) makes recommendations as to what applicant for home rehab gets approved and in turn send that on to the City Commission which all but rubber stamp same. How does someone get on the NRAC?: It's a patronage plum of a "volunteer assignment" and is filled with the people who got commissioners elected.The fact Swarts and her large operation dole out all manner of monies to poverty pimps....social service agencies that can't do their own fund raising due their own sloth like thinking processes coupled with the fact that they've always been given money by City Hall to run the same old organizations. It's easier for Swarts and company to give away hundreds of thousands of dollars to these "agencies" than to rehab owner occupied homes. It's a simple fact.What is so sad about this matter is our town has a bunch of idiots running around saying this and that are "historic" while good working people can't get the assistance that is needed nor be able to take advantage of this wonderful program that does exist....but only to a certain degree.$55,000.00 was given to the Oread Neighborhood group to appease Marci Francisco and Candace Davis and erect a concrete monument for Davis in the form of a bunch of stupid steps. Money like that is better spent in helping working people rehab their homes.Finally, take a look at this City web site: http://www.lawrenceneighres.org/nracagenda.shtmlThe minutes from the NRAC haven't been posted since the June 7, 2007 meeting. Sloth and arrogance.

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caton1982 5 years, 10 months ago

I can't believe these people couldn't keep up with takeing care of there home when so many people are not as lucky to have a home. I also can't believe so many people giving money to people who are not responsible for themself's if you have that many kids you need to keep up with things like that but no one seems to care When On the 11th a double wide trailer went up in flames and you don't see them whining for money and they had kids.

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myopinion 5 years, 10 months ago

IF you read the article, they applied for a LOAN, not free money.

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workinghard 5 years, 10 months ago

They can sell the lot for maybe $15,000 to $20,000 and buy a used double wide mobile home. The city likes to pay top dollar for lots so they can raise lot values in that area and drive up property taxes. New owner could take the legal responsibility for tearing down house. Just a suggestion.

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hawkperchedatriverfront 5 years, 10 months ago

Maybe they couldn't find an insurance agency that would insure them. Rates are high, many companies want to insure at replacement cost. Insurance rates are based on credit scores, which really is goofy way. but it is the way those who have the gold rules: hence: the Golden Rule.They do have a vacant lot and hopefully the city commisson won't be asking what will go on it, nor Mr. Brown and Ms.Zollner and the EAst Lawrence neighborhood group. The house should not be fixed up. A new more efficient smaller structure would do them fine. BUT then, comes the same problem, do they have money to insure a new house, pay the taxes, utilities. Even with a free new house, the taxes and insurance on a $112,000 house would be around $140 a month, plus another $80 for insurance, plus utiilites and with all those people coming and going the utilities could average a couple hundred a month so now we are at $420. There may not be much income.at the household.

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macon47 5 years, 10 months ago

it would make more sense to educate somefolks on birth control and the cost of raisinga large family

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max1 5 years, 10 months ago

1141 New YorkAppraised value: $91,840http://www.nccp.org/profiles/KS_profile_6.htmlIn Kansas, there are 381,441 families, with 686,254 children.38% (261,007) of children live in low-income families45% (117,279) of children in low-income families live in owner-occupied housing.http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/mar/29/report_poverty_touching_more_kids/March 29, 2006: In Douglas County, one of every five children is living within a few hundred dollars of the federal poverty linehttp://www.ers.usda.gov/data/povertyrates/PovListpct.asp?Longname=Kansas&ST=KS&SF=4A2005 poverty rates for Kansas

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lawrencemom 5 years, 10 months ago

We somehow need to educate folks. They were blessed with a house from their family and must not have had a mortgage or they would have had to have insurance. They have funds to pay the cell phone bill but clearly don't understand the risk they are taking by not having homeowners insurance. What a tragedy.

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Grump 5 years, 10 months ago

Blame it on the city--if the city had just given them a bunch of free money, this wouldn't have happened. I'd like $25,000 to fix up my house too. The house received $106,000 in damages? Is there any house on the 1100 block of New York that's worth $106,000?

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macon47 5 years, 10 months ago

if i was a single parent with "SEVEN" mouths to feedplus two live ins ...all in one house i wouldnt have any moneyfor insurance either.

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skinny 5 years, 10 months ago

No homeowners policy?Seven kids!Wow!

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Bladerunner 5 years, 10 months ago

I feel bad these people lost their home. It is also a classic example of people expecting the government to take care of them. Well, it ain't happening. And, you shouldn't expect it to start anytime soon.

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