Archive for Wednesday, August 27, 2008

20% of residents below poverty level

August 27, 2008

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About 20 percent of the people in Lawrence are living below the poverty level, according to data released Tuesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

That includes nearly 4,000 households with total incomes of less than $10,000.

The 2008 poverty level is $10,400 earned over a year by one individual, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is $21,200 for a family of four.

Information about Lawrence income and poverty rates is included in the bureau's annual report, "Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007."

Representatives for two Lawrence social service organizations say the city's poverty level could be higher than 20 percent.

"Last month alone our (food) pantry served up to 700 people," said Jeanette Collier, director of East Central Kansas Economic Opportunity Corp. "Six new homeless families showed up at my office Monday."

And requests for utility payment assistance is "overwhelming," Collier said.

"I've probably had 35 people who are on a waiting list call me this week," she said.

Today's high prices for food, fuel and other necessities are causing serious problems even for people above the poverty level, said Paul Hunt, human resources director at the Ballard Center.

"I think the perception is that more people are having trouble even if they are higher up in the socioeconomic stratus because of prices," he said. "I would say (the census report) is not a surprise."

The census report's findings show that the national poverty rate in 2007 was 12.5 percent. There were 37.3 million people in poverty in 2007, up from 36.5 million in 2006.

But the median household income in the U.S. climbed 1.3 percent between 2006 and 2007, reaching $50,233. The median household income was $38,826 in Lawrence in 2007. It was $47,451 in Kansas.

Comments

yeah_right 6 years, 11 months ago

I know from experience that working a decent paying job (mid $30,000's) is no easier than working at Wal-mart while receiving free medical for the kids & food stamps. I'm glad to be off assistance but we definitely had more food in the house when I earned less money.

SettingTheRecordStraight 6 years, 11 months ago

When bozo referers to his "single-payer health care system", what he means is a wasteful, bloated, bureacratic government-run healthcare scheme run with all the efficiencies and cost savings of Lawrence's emp-T. If you like how government handles the emp-T, Hurricane Katrina cleanup and the Iraq War, just wait unitl they get their bumbling hands on your healthcare.

davidnta 6 years, 11 months ago

b3, maybe you should watch CNN's Black in America and look at how poverty works here in America.

BastetKitty 6 years, 11 months ago

I apologize ahead of time for the wordiness and ramblings of my post...What frustrates me is that I am a divorced mom who is working 2 jobs, 1 full-time & 1 part-time (my day starts at 1:30 a.m.), to support my son. I was supporting 2 kids but my daughter graduated high school and moved a couple of years ago. We don't have any fancy things like cell phones or cable. There are no $50 shoes or name brand clothes in my house. We don't eat out or go to the movies. Yes, I did do a bad job picking a husband and yes, I am paying on my daughter's old medical bills but I can't find any legitimate reason in my mind to ignore my debts. Anyway, I have been told that we are called "the working poor".It seems like just as I'm getting so I can breathe a little easier my electric bill goes up, the gas bill goes up, or the food prices have gone up while the product size has shrunk! I have a college education. I am not lazy. I try to live a good life so there should be no bad karma on my heels. Yet, we struggle every month. I am doing the best I can.We don't qualify for reduced lunches (the only assistance I would like to get) because the federal government who oversees the reduced lunch program looks at my income before taxes. After taxes, we would be well below the maximum income allowed. I pay my share of taxes yet I can't get any assistance from a program my taxes help pay for and has been helping pay for since I had my first job as a teenager! I know school lunches are a luxury but a hot lunch is a luxury I wish I could give my kid.Then, there is a couple who lives near me that has 4 kids. One of the adults has a job. The other one does not and has told me about how she feels their families owe them because they have money while her and her boyfriend do not. She feels that the government owes them (!) because they have kids. (I think I blew a blood vessel the second she said that). They receive assistance from every government program out there and where do I see their money going? Beer, hard liquor and cigarettes. Oh and pizza and Chinese buffet. Cell phones, movies, and yesterday she told me that they just installed cable and internet!I guess I just want to say that I know there are families out there who are struggling and legitimately need help. Heck, I am as frugal as it gets and still wonder how I will feed my son. However, it's adults like the one's I just mentioned that make me want to scream. I am expected to be understanding and sympathetic about how they need all this help when I am busting my rear trying to take care of my own kid without assistance.I just cannot wrap my mind around that. Maybe I'm just too stressed and tired to try.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 6 years, 11 months ago

Isn't it obvious that that number is also reflective of how many college students we have? If undergrads (who have support from loans, dad and scholarships - none of which is "income") maintain a residence, they are in those numbers as well.There is no way that 1 of 5 is destitute in this city. No way.

blackhawkx 6 years, 11 months ago

The poverty levels don't even factor in inflation. I guarantee you that if it did this would be much higher.

otto 6 years, 11 months ago

try a job - 40 hrs a week x $5.00 and hour = not below 10,000.

sourpuss 6 years, 11 months ago

I love the people who shout "just get a job!!" It isn't that simple, folks. The economy is bad. It isn't as though there are just these great jobs sitting around. Heck, there aren't even that many BAD jobs sitting around. In many cases, a full-time job is difficult or impossible to hold because child care would eat up the entire paycheck. Other times, government health care would be lost, and if a child has a medical problem, that makes being put over that poverty threshold impossible to bear. If you don't have a car, your job potential is limited more. If you don't have nice clothes, computer skills, or technical skills, a job can be hard to find. There is a bigger picture here than just getting a job.

SettingTheRecordStraight 6 years, 11 months ago

At least the myriad government programs paid for through the forced generosity of our population will ensure that those below the poverty line receive food stamps, Medicaid and many other social services.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 11 months ago

"try a job - 40 hrs a week x $5.00 and hour = not below 10,000."Yea, those lazy, good for nothing five-year-olds just need to get a job.

KsTwister 6 years, 11 months ago

What is interesting if you take someone who makes $10 hour factor in take home after taxes they are close to the border line too. Sorry to say I don't know how people manage in Lawrence.

jayhawklawrence 6 years, 11 months ago

Most of the jobs in this town seem to involve Education, Construction, and Restaurants/Bars.Education is funded by taxes. Construction is historically an up and down industry in which Lawrence has enjoyed a long and steady expansion which has now slowed to almost a halt. Restaurants/Bars are minimum wage or lower. Almost everybody else drives to the Kansas City area or Topeka.So why all the resistance to the SLT and to industrial parks?You reap what you sow.

compmd 6 years, 11 months ago

You all would be surprised at the number of highly educated and motivated professionals in this city that have a lot of trouble finding a decent job.

BrianR 6 years, 11 months ago

Autie, What is the relationship between having a minimum wage job and having insurance? Making "too much" money, which is still usually too little, only causes the complete loss of medical benefits. What do you propose?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 11 months ago

"Making "too much" money, which is still usually too little, only causes the complete loss of medical benefits. What do you propose?"A single-payer health care system, not attached to a particular job, and available to all would solve this problem immediately.

SettingTheRecordStraight 6 years, 11 months ago

"Tax monies should be used to help people not business and commercial interests." - logrithmicThis is another example of the far left's dangerous economic mindset. Logrithmic falsely believes that when the government reduces tax burdens on taxpaying businesses, those businesses are somehow being given a handout. The government can't give handouts to business; however, businesses do involuntarily provide handouts to government through confiscatory taxes. The uncomfortable reality is that those "business and commercial interests" that logrithmic laments are the progenitors of the government's tax base and the reason why his government gravy train is overflowing. Logrithimic and his special interest buddies will confiscate all they can from you to fund their pet social programs. They remind me of that line from Fortunate Son by CCR - "And when you ask them, how much should we give? Ooh, they only answer: More! More! More!"

feeble 6 years, 11 months ago

"Poverty" in the US is poorly defined. Many service providers and aid organizations have their own metrics for what is and is not poverty. The government's definition, dating from 1964, only includes food costs required to meet the guidelines on nutrition provided by the government. It absolutely does not include fuel costs, health care or housing costs. Things like food stamps, disability, etc are not included in the calculation. We, as a country, need to come up with metrics that are descriptive and informed, so we can respond appropriately to problems of poverty in our communities.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 6 years, 11 months ago

"20% of residents below poverty level"Poverty... so abstract a concept for the well-endowed.Imagine if it were the water level.

yellowhouse 6 years, 11 months ago

Poverty level mom on welfare gets:Monthly welfare benefit checkfoodstampsSection-8 house that is free or nearly rent freefree food pantry suppliesFree school suppliesFree shoe card for all the kids to get new shoes to start school in from payless shoesAdopted and showered with free food and gifts during the Holidays.Can babysit or do odd jobs on the side for some spending cash.Free medical and dental card for the kidsHelp with utility bills through the warm hearts program and other non-profit organizationsGets SRS funding for free daycare if she wants to go to school or get a jobCan get low income grants to attend school-------------Mom making less than $10 an hour .....Pays her own rentbuys her own foodpays her own medical or goes withoutQualifies for nothing because she makes too much.---you do the math!!

jafs 6 years, 11 months ago

Actually, 40 hrs at $5/hr provides an annual income of $10,400, which is exactly at the poverty level.40 x $5=$200$200 x 52 (weeks in a year)=$10,400Also, isn't is obvious that setting the level at about twice that for a family of four makes no sense? If one person needs a certain amount to live, then doubling that only allows for two people. And children are quite expensive.And, of course, I'd like to see how one is suppposed to live on $200/week, especially these days. The general recommendation for housing costs are that they be about 25-30% of one's gross income. At $200/week that would translate into $200-$240/month. Where can one live for that amount?

gccs14r 6 years, 11 months ago

I'm not Autie, but we need nationalized health insurance, for one. That would go a long way toward breaking the poverty cycle and help our national competitiveness.

jaycat 6 years, 11 months ago

Kick them when there up, kick them when there down! It seems no matter how hard you try the gov or some one else just wants to knock you back down. That is bs about bad choices too. Sometimes things just happen unexpectedly, medically, accidents, mother nature, what ever. I've worked all my life, since I was about six, no kidding I had a neighbor that pd minimum wage to help in the yard. Anyway I've been around long enough to see people take advantage of the gov and other places while the working poor just keeps getting poorer. But no complaints really because I am happy, stressed but happy. Just as the proctoligest said "this to shall pass".

lawrencechick 6 years, 11 months ago

Kappyblu illustrated exactly what is wrong with some people. Four "surprise" preganancies and she still can't get a clue and find a decent man. This will just get passed on generation after generation and I'll keep working my butt off to support her.

kappyblu 6 years, 11 months ago

Yellowhouse--you say all of that is available to a low-income single mother. Do you ever think about how she became a single mother???How about this true story:Got pregnant and married her boyfriend at 20 who had bad credit and no money, but she was "in love" with him.Man couldn't keep a job because he was always switching jobs or would get fired.Man cheated on his wife more than once. Wife was still "in love" with him so she stayed.Man and woman have a surprise pregnancy at the age of 30. Child is born prematurely (just one of those things) and she gets pregnant (not on purpose) again.Added stresses of a child with special needs takes extra toll on marriage and family. After third child, man cheats again and begins to make plans to leave.Wife becomes pregnant (surprise!) again and the husband walks out on her 7 months pregnant and 3 children.Wife divorces husband (after 14 years of lies and misery) and is trying to raise four children on her own.After she stops reliving the role of victim, she realizes she needs to take the steps to secure a better future for her and her family. She uses the services available to her to allow her to attend school and provide daycare for her children. She is so determined to do well, that she manages to go to school, take care of the house, cook meals, do laundry, mow the lawn, bathe the kids, take care of her children's every need including medical, daycare, school, and everything else under the sun. All of this and is maintaining a 4.0 in college and taking honors courses. Of course she has little sleep and no time for a man, but believe me she is better off. Oh yes, and the loser ex-husband doesn't pay child support and is still going from job to job and sponging off of his girlfriend that he left her for. Nice, huh? As for the free shoe cards--I have no idea where one can obtain those. Help with the holidays is available to a select number of famlies, not everyone. Also, without medicaid, children's medical needs would not be met. Not everyone takes advantage of the system. The woman I'm talking about is working hard to get off of those programs so she doesn't need them anymore. She doesn't want to get stuck in a dead-end job for the rest of her life. She will succeed and be the bread winner for her family like her ex-husband (who rarely visits his children) never was. Why don't you try walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you make judgements you know nothing about? Everyone makes mistakes, but you can learn from them so you don't make them again. Thanks for reading.

SettingTheRecordStraight 6 years, 11 months ago

"No, progressives are sick and tired of paying for highways for trucks and commuters while the needs of our citizens go unmet." - logrithmicFirst of all, the term "progressive" is a joke. Why not just self-identify as "the beautiful people" or "the incredibly smart people"? Whenever you see the term "progressive," replace it with "rabid liberal."Second, logrithmic's argument doesn't hold water. Roads are paid for through taxes assessed on OTR truckers and through high motor fuel taxes. Logrithmic's supposed "needs" are really just his and his friends wants. Tell logrithmic and those who want more from government at the expense of others to suppress their greed.

theno1jhawk 6 years, 11 months ago

2.65 refers to the wage received by most of your servers around town. Since resturants can attribute some of their wages to tips, they don't have to pay as much to these workers. Meanwhile, when the economy tanks, people eat out and tip less, yet the people in the service industry still get to put up with the bs of working in a resturant.

booyalab 6 years, 11 months ago

I'm sure I made less than 10,000 last year and I'm still a lot better off than most people in the world. We don't know how good we have it in this country.

staff04 6 years, 11 months ago

Well, I've got to be somewhat skeptical here--I would like to see the breakout by occupation (ie. students). More than 60% of those below the pverty level fall in that 18-24 age range. How many are technically still dependents?

Haiku_Cuckoo 6 years, 11 months ago

"Got pregnant and married her boyfriend at 20 who had bad credit and no money, but she was "in love" with him.""Man cheated on his wife more than once. Wife was still "in love" with him so she stayed.""Man and woman have a surprise pregnancy at the age of 30.""she gets pregnant again.""Wife becomes pregnant (surprise!) again and the husband walks out on her 7 months pregnant and 3 children.""Everyone makes mistakes, but you can learn from them so you don't make them again."=============It sounds like a multitude of bad decisions on the lady's part. I agree that everyone makes mistakes, but how long does it take for a person to realize that they need to practice birth control or, better yet, refuse to have sexual relations with a guy that is cheating and unable to provide for the family? Stories like this are the reason taxpayers feel like they are being taken advantage of.

booyalab 6 years, 11 months ago

logrithmic, would you mind making a cliff's notes of your emotionally hysterical rhetoric so some of us can more effectively address all your fallacies?

absolutelyridiculous 6 years, 11 months ago

25% of kids in Lawrence Public School are in the free lunch program. Boy, Kansas is way behind on the minimum wage. $2.65? Please, that's insulting! One of 7 states in the US and lowest in the US. I didn't realize the restaurant industry drove our economy that much. lol. These numbers are not surprising to me! Add the highest cost of living in the state and the lowest minimum wage and this is what we get folks. Per capital personal income in Lawrence in 2005 was 28,394...Kansas 32,666.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 11 months ago

"a wasteful, bloated, bureacratic government-run healthcare scheme"No, what I mean is doing away with a wasteful, bloated, bureaucratic corporate insurance-run healthcare scheme.

lawrencechick 6 years, 11 months ago

18-24 year olds are the largest percentage??? That is a scary glimpe into our future.

acoupstick 6 years, 11 months ago

"prosperity and individual freedom that capitalism creates"Capitalism doesn't "create" either one of these things. Capitalism creates profit. Societies can use capitalism as a means to achieve prosperity and individual freedom.

tunahelper 6 years, 11 months ago

go and get a job you lazy whiners! even mickey D's pays more than 5 bucks an hour!

kappyblu 6 years, 11 months ago

invictus: thanks for pinpointing your ignorance. how is it sexual immorality when a wife gets pregnant by her husband? I never blamed anybody but myself for my situation. They were my choices. But see, I have learned from my mistakes and I will not be making them again. I will not need assistance forever. Then, I will help the ones who need it. I hope none of you ever have to "walk in my shoes" but maybe you could try being less judgemental. You never know what could happen. Bad things happen to good people all the time. People get laid off, family members become ill, wives get left, and the people who have had these "rosy" lives feel like they have a right to judge. How dare you.As for my surprise (birth control is not 100% effective) pregnancies, I am grateful for every single one and I wouldn't trade them for anything. How dare anyone even remotely suggest that I should apologize for my babies? I've had enough. People are going to believe what they want, myself included. So, have a nice life and may you never have to be included in a statistic. :-)

gccs14r 6 years, 11 months ago

STRS seems to think that motor fuel taxes are sufficient to pay for our highway infrastructure. They're not and never have been. The rest of the maintenance and construction budget comes from the general fund and from the individual states.

leftlawrenceafter30years 6 years, 11 months ago

Since moving to Iowa from Lawrence, I have become involved in a poverty initiative to reduce the level in our county which is at 15%. I was not so shocked to read this article as that was a factor in our decision to move away.The cost of doing business in Lawrence and the rising cost of living there and the lack of any assistance for those on the edge whether they were students or just low wage workers was intolerable.Iowa is a much more humane state and realistic towards the people who live here.Poverty has many faces and in our county it is the children and the elderly who are the poorest. Throughout the county, study circles were formed and we included the well off and the poor so the conversation could begin in earnest. Nearly two years later, non-profits have formed in two of the towns and two other towns have formed community groups to fight poverty. We found that during the study circles, we had a lot of assets and worked to better inform the residents of these things that were available. We started a VITA site (free income tax preparation for low income folks that made less than $40,000). Many people had difficulty getting to appointments-we started a volunteer transportation program. We now provide a welcome basket filled with information for newcomers as well as gift certificates from various businesses throughout the communities. We have applied for grants and purchased a building that is being renovated and is almost ready for us to move into. We have had a hotline and word of mouth over these nearly two years has gained us new volunteers.My county is populated by about 7,000 folks in a rural setting. The secret to our success has been the fact that we included everybody who wanted to participate and surprisingly, many of the people who are well off were very surprised to hear that poverty was an issue. Starting the conversation between those who have and those who don't in a setting that is neutral is essential if we are ever going to improve the lives of all of our citizens.I attended a poverty conference in Minneapolis this spring and the keynote speaker was Dr. Donna Beegle. I have included a link to her website if you are interested in learning more.Change lives!http://www.combarriers.com/about

Rationalanimal 6 years, 11 months ago

logrithmic--Once again, you illustrate the frustration every marxist feels when facts, history and logic overwhelm the abissmal failures of the redistribution"vision." So, to deflect the argument you have to levy personal attacks and retreat to the sidelines. It is this same frustration felt at the high levels of marxists governments which result in oppression of people and territorial aggression. "The people and neighbors just don't get it, so, we'll help them see the light." This was recently evident in Russia's invasion of Georgia, China's aggression in Tibet, Venezula's aggression in Columbia.The fact is log, marxists like yourself exist in America because so much abundance and freedom is created by capitalism. You hate the very thing which provides your existence. That is the insanity of it.

tunahelper 6 years, 11 months ago

hey logritmick!it's the US military that is protecting your freedom.if is so terrible you can move to china or iran or north korea, you would fit in great there.if you can read this, thank a teacher.if you can read this in English, thank an American Soldier.

otto 6 years, 11 months ago

Hey Autie - do you have a job. Do you work 60-80 hours a week. Doubt it, someone else works and pays your bills.

leftlawrenceafter30years 6 years, 11 months ago

A little bit more information about our effort to end poverty in this rural southern Iowa county. As I mentioned earlier, we involved a broad economically diverse group of citizens together to find our assets. Once we had consensus from the entire county, we took action. A few committed individuals participated in Leadership Plenty ® training and came back and organized and trained new community leaders to change the climate of the "same ten people" who always did it before. We had junior high students all the way to over eighty years old involved. They went out into the community and in their own words told what poverty looked like in our place and what we wanted to do about it. Then we started working with other organizations and businesses to get things done. We fundraised by having a duck race, bake sales and by solicitating donors. The non-profit that we formed has been granting mini-grants to individuals that are having difficulty. We supplied a back pack for each grade in the elementary school complete with supplies for any student that needed one. This year it was eight and we hope to be able to increase it next year. Another member organized the youth in the community and when mother nature delivered a paralyzing blizzard following a severe ice storm, the Snow Angels were born. They shoveled sidewalks and driveways for the disabled. This group of teenagers in cooperation with one of our manufacturers providing gas for trucks and another business providing pizza, went out and cleaned up the town to the tune of 57 loads of tree limbs and brush and hauled it to the landfill.Then they did it another day at their own expense.Poverty is a community problem and community is the solution. My son still lives in Lawrence and he can't afford a car and uses the T to get around. He has to live with two others just to be able to afford the cost of living in Lawrence. He is employed. We have sent him care packages of food monthly because at the end of the month the money doesn't include eating. Our story isn't exclusive it is inclusive. You might just be surprised who amongst you is going hungry. Lawrence has many assets too that are being underutilized. We've found that when the poor are included in the discussion and treated with dignity and the stigma is removed mountains can be moved.Good luck and I hope you will pass it forward.

Rationalanimal 6 years, 11 months ago

With all the marxist policy in Lawrence, why doesn't Lawrence lead Kansas in income per capita? Hmm? In fact, why is Kansas under Governor Sebellius' leadership doing economically? Wasn't Kansas on the path of liberal progessiveness, enlightment, compassion, independent leadership immune to all the ills of the broader capitalist society orchestrated by Bush the Sith Lord and Cheney his evil Sith minion?"The difference between a communist and an anti-communist is, a communist reads Lenin, an anti-communist reads Lenin and understands what he says." (Ronaldus Magnus)The answer that marxists arrive at, not the obvious that their philosophy leads to terrible results, but, more government power, less freedom, less market, more restriction, more centralized control. Put another way, more insanity and less personal liberty. The failures of Lawrence illustrates two things: First, consistent with a hundred years of history, marxism is an abissmal and utter economic and political failure. Second, the failure of marxism is why countries like the U.S.S.R. result--countries which embrace marxism ultimately have to first oppress its citizens and then expand and oppress other countries to support its own failure. It is a cycle of insanity, wholly embraced by enlightened politicians like Kansas' own Kathleen Sebellius and the Chicago slum thug Barrack Lenin Obama.

George_Braziller 6 years, 11 months ago

kappyblu (Anonymous) - If you have kids in school there is a shoe program at the Social Service League (905 Rhode Island). Ask for Jean Ann.______As for the free shoe cards-I have no idea where one can obtain those.

RedwoodCoast 6 years, 11 months ago

Wow, look how many 18-24 year-olds live below the poverty level. I wonder how the percentage of students per capita in Lawrence compares to that figure.

Rationalanimal 6 years, 11 months ago

If you can find one thing "rational" in the post above, please point it out.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++And that is the problem with marxists, they look at the prosperity and individual freedom that capitalism creates and ask: "How can this be rational?" Thank you for making my point. As for Ted Stevens, nice try to deflect the argument away from the inferiority of marxism to an ethics debate on people who are bipartisanly corrupt (remember Uncle Bill the disbarred perjurer?). Again, marxists look past the means to fit their ends--U.S.S.R., Chi-Coms, Vietnamese, North Koreans, Cuba, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Chavez, Pelosi, Clinton, Obama and on and on. They want us to forget results and conform to the price demanded by the vision.

jafs 6 years, 11 months ago

I'm tired of all of the name-calling.Being upset about the huge amounts of tax revenue that are spent on things one disagrees with is not being a "Marxist".It is interesting that we are having a vote about funding infrastructure repair and the "T", but not about any other items in our budget.The last time I checked, the monthly budget for Lawrence was about $12 million. Why can't we do much better with that much money? Where is it going?Kappy, I think you may have misinterpreted yellow's post. It merely pointed out that for many people, it is better for them financially to not work at low paying jobs.That's the problem with the "just get a job" mentality - if you are better off not working, why would you get a low paying, menial job instead?Also, many people succeed based more on their connections than their hard work.CEO's are getting guaranteed severance packages in the millions even if they are fired or run the company into the ground.In my experience, as you go up the ladder, it seems there is less actual work done. If you want to get something done, ask the people who do it.

jafs 6 years, 11 months ago

And, freedom and capitalism are not in fact the same thing.What if a country voted in a free and fair election for a socialist government? I believe it happened in Nicaragua, or possibly El Salvador.We (the US) didn't like that very much - so much for our love of democracy.

acoupstick 6 years, 11 months ago

"marxists like yourself exist in America because so much abundance and freedom is created by capitalism"Again, capitalism doesn't "create" abundance and freedom. Do you even know what Marxism is?

Rationalanimal 6 years, 11 months ago

"And, freedom and capitalism are not in fact the same thing."Incorrect, economic and political freedom are inseperable. "Do you even know what Marxism is?"It is abundantly clear you don't since you refuse to cede the vision. Capitalism is premised on economic freedom, true political freedom cannot exist without economic freedom--a point marxists just can't bring themselves to admit. It's why marxist governments either have to placate the masses with depressants or forced "re-education." The historical freedom associated with capitalism and vice versa, the historical oppression associated with marxism, are irrefutable. Keep trying to find a vertical corner in a circular room soup."Being upset about the huge amounts of tax revenue that are spent on things one disagrees with is not being a "Marxist"."Jafs--you're just plain wrong. Have you read Marx? The feature principle of marxism is equality through redistribution of economic production. This is accomplished, and required, by massive centralized government power which heavily controls, regulates and seizes the production and property of citizens. In other words, a massive "tax," and "spend" system. Just be honest about what you believe for once. If "marxism" is a prejorative description, you might consider re-evaluating your economic/political beliefs. Otherwise, you're living in a fantasy world to say you favor massive centralized taxation and spending but not a marxist.

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