Uncivil discourse / LJWorld.com

Archive for Sunday, August 17, 2008

A video of two debate coaches is a stunning example of everything our civic dialogue shouldn’t be.

J-W Editorials

August 17, 2008

If you're already concerned about the level of civil discourse in American today, you shouldn't watch a video now circulating on YouTube of two debate coaches "discussing" an issue earlier this year in Wichita.

The heated and profanity-laden argument was between two debate coaches, one from the University of Pittsburgh and the other from Fort Hays State University. (Note to Kansas legislators: Kansas University isn't the only state institution that occasionally has a faculty-related controversy.)

The Fort Hays coach drew special attention because during the course of the argument, he chose to emphasize one of his points by dropping his shorts and exposing his underwear-clad behind to the Pittsburgh coach. It is a jaw-dropping moment but hardly the most offensive part of this video.

When we think of a debate, whether it's a high school or college contest or a presidential debate, we think of intelligent people who make reasoned arguments based on factual evidence. We think Kennedy or Lincoln. The debaters often speak with passion, but they get no points for losing their tempers and certainly not for using profanity.

To think that the two coaches in this video are giving instruction and perhaps setting an example for young people about how to make their case or express their point of view is stunning. It's hard to even discern what this argument is about. It apparently has something to do with racial issues (the Fort Hays coach is a white male, the Pittsburgh coach a black female) and the Pittsburgh coach being rejected as a judge by the Fort Hays State team. However, it's impossible to make any sense of their screaming tirade.

The Fort Hays coach's job may be in danger. He's a non-tenured faculty member, and the university's provost clearly wasn't amused by the coach, who "often forgets he's part of the Fort Hays State brand."

Obviously this display reflects poorly on both of the individuals and institutions involved. What is even more disappointing, even depressing, however, is the possibility that these two debate coaches reflect the level of discourse that too often permeates the American dialogue, whether it's on the campaign trail, in city hall or between two disgruntled citizens. Freedom to speak one's mind is part of America's bedrock, but there's a limit.

On second thought, if you care about the level of civil discourse in America, maybe you should watch the video. It might serve as a much-needed wake-up call.

Discussion

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17 August 2008
at 8:36 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Don't know much about debate teams, do you, Madmike?
17 August 2008
at 1:23 p.m.

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RogueThrill (Anonymous) says…

Debate is not an educational activity, a normative discourse or even a discriptive discourse. It is a competition. They aren't tackling any issues or bringing light to misjustices; they are using scholarly works and intellectual arguments to win a competition. They shouldn't be held to a higher standard than anyone else just because they are 'scholars' because they are really just the nerd version of college basketball players.I used to debate at Fort Hays and I left before Bill got there. I don't like him and I think he is crazy but he certainly is intelligent and not a racist.
17 August 2008
at 2:55 p.m.

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penguin (Anonymous) says…

Actually this is not all that surprising coming from a debate coach. I have had the opportunity to see much more physical altercations take place between high school debate coaches. However, they were also never did any of this in front of kids, parents, or a camera. This should not excuse the action, but trust me there is more going on behind the scenes at a debate tourney than kids discussing policy. Also I have never had the opportunity to see one of Bill's teams debate, but I have heard stories from those who his students have debated or from judges. They never spoke of physical altercations, but the impression I was left with was an odd one. However, this does not make it an incorrect approach…just different.Above all, I just keep reflecting on those summer lectures at Michigan Classic from Roger Solt on why Bill is just wrong. Oh if I could only hear him now. Bill has shown during his time in Hays some great successes, but also an inability to live within acceptable social boundaries (this incident, the T-ball arrest incident, and contempt charges from refusing to wear shoes in a court of law). As with all successful coaches this eventually wears thin…regardless of how good they are at their job. This could only be the beginning with a much more volitale Woody Hayes-like or Bobby Knight-like moment on the horizon.
17 August 2008
at 3:09 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

here are links:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d98nXtz8rTohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPt8UVU7bXs&feature=relatedThe state of disarray “leading” and “teaching” at our Universities and Colleges.Makes one think just what are these people's “qualifications”?
17 August 2008
at 3:13 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

His arrogant statment justifying his putrid behavior was:”People care so much it bubbles over…, I care about everyone in this room.”Say what you want, Liberals do a poo fight like this, rednecks take it outside and actually fignt!LOL! What a fine commentary on our “Higher Educaational System”, and be very worried that we have mental lightweights filling it. Don't tell me that it ain't so, I see what is at the Universities, and this is typical.
17 August 2008
at 3:16 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

“… but also an inability to live within acceptable social boundaries (this incident, the T-ball arrest incident, and contempt charges from refusing to wear shoes in a court of law).”We call idiots like that (Regardless of thier intelligence) as lawbreakers and anti-social poeple. This guy looks like and sounds he has a pathological inferiority disorder. He should be medicated. (With real docotor ordered lithium.)A teeball arrest incident, rotflmao!
17 August 2008
at 3:18 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

You wanna bet he gets a job at KU?

17 August 2008
at 3:23 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Here is his response, this guy is an idiot!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rESjqZsIi5Q&watch_responseMonkey poo fight at it's best!
17 August 2008
at 3:50 p.m.

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beatrice (Anonymous) says…

That guy got way out of control, acted like an absolute jerk, and he deserves to lose his job. His tirade was abusive, he got all up in the woman's face, but when the man steps up to him he starts talking in a reasonable tone, which speaks volumes.Plus, what about professionalism? He represents the university and he doesn't wear shoes in public spaces?! I am for liberal causes, but slovenly is not a liberal cause, it is just lazy. Get a haircut, wear pants, tuck your shirt in, put on shoes that don't have a little swoosh mark on the side, if you have facial hair and aren't a member of ZZ Top then at least trim the beard, and simply present yourself in a professional manner. The only way he could have been dressed worse for his job would be if he had worn a bathrobe to the debate. Most importantly, act like a professional. The school officials need to step up and do the right thing by dumping this guy. He isn't Bobby Knight — dump him! After knowing that an instructor will verbally abuse people and scream and yell to make a point, it would only be a matter of time before he goes off on a student in a classroom or at a debate — and the student would be justified in sueing the school for abuse. Time to teach him that there are consequences for our actions.
17 August 2008
at 4:19 p.m.

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penguin (Anonymous) says…

He will not be at KU anytime soon…KU already has an excellent coach (Scott Harris) and I do not see him being replaced.Also for any of those trying to use this to go after all university professors should just stop. However, if you want to keep going…you should take note that he is on a non-tenure track. Do any of you think this is a coincidence?Above all, I am really surprised he has lasted this long at Fort Hays. Hays is not a large city where one can easily hide. I cannot imagine that after the previous run-ins that it would be that comfortable to live in Hays. However, time can only tell what Dr. Hammond and Dr. Gould will take on this issue.
17 August 2008
at 4:42 p.m.

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jafs (Anonymous) says…

Actually, the other coach seems to have started the fight.Not that that justifies his actions.They were both remarkably stupid and aggressive.
17 August 2008
at 4:59 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

“Also for any of those trying to use this to go after all university professors should just stop.”Why? Cause you “say so”? There was a whole room of “Professors” and both of these two idiots living in their “ivory tower” showed just how far removed from society the Universities are getting.The guy had the right point, and it was not a racist one, however, his actions were so outrageous nothing he did can be defended.The other “Professor” was a black racist, and she was pissed for getting called on it. Anti white rants are “de jour” at universities these days with an almost total “Anti America” bent.This is exactly what you get when you foster “academics” in today's current liberal cloistered from. If there were any “rednecks” in the room that guy would have been throttled before he got in this woman's face.As far as the “tenured track” areguiment, all it means is that he was no “rear end kisser”. That is just about the level “tenure track” positions have fallen to.So spare me the “all universities are not like this”, because many of the above comments say this is exactly what the debate world is.
17 August 2008
at 5:01 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Oh, and if there is a probelm institutionally in “higher learning”, just remember that there are very few conservatives hired in tenure track positions, or at all in the higher learning system. So much for the “explore all sides of an argument, academically”. That myth is so over.
17 August 2008
at 5:12 p.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Ah, the irony…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(fallacy)—Ag
17 August 2008
at 6:28 p.m.

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RiverCityConservative (Anonymous) says…

I know Bill Shanahan and when my familyand I were living in Hays several yearsago he and I were colleagues on the facultyat Fort Hays State University, he incommunications and me in special education/ESL.Our wives were close friends during thoseyears and my youngest son, Bill, playedall the time with his boy, William, sinceour homes were just several blocks apart.As far as the notion that there might havebeen racism at the center of this videotapedargument on youtube, I really don't believethere was, although I was not there and Ihave no inside information beyond what ison the tape. Dr. Shanahan and I were on thesame side of several important issues relatedto this topic while I was at Fort Hays, andI know that he shares my deeply felt supportfor tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalexperiences as well as respect for multipleperspectives in life.I have no experience in the world of competitive debate, but I know it mustget emotional at times. I certainlyhave learned a lot in the informal,friendly discussions I have had withBill Shanahan, and in reading his pithy,insightful articles. If you want to seeanother side of him, maybe you can geta hold of archived videos from a localuniversity-based TV program he hostedin recent years, discussing with expertsvarious social, economic, and politicaltopics. I would suggest contacting FortHays to see about obtaining access tothose.I personally believe Dr. Shanahan'sapproach to debate and his teachinghas a positive effect on young people,mainly through challenging them to dotheir very best, prepare thoroughlyfor any task, and to be intellectuallyinnovative, honest, and clear. It sounds like, from the A.P. storyabout the March incident and youtube,Bill Shahanan has admitted that someof his antics that day were mistakes.I know some of the other people involvedat Fort Hays, including Chief AcademicOfficer Larry Gould, who is a wiseleader and very innovative thinkerhimself. I hope that the KansasBoard of Regents and the Kansaslegislature don't get involved inthis matter, but that is certainlypossible in our state.I consider Bill Shanahan and his familyto be friends of mine, and I trust theyare not suffering too much in light ofthe renewed scrutiny this embarrassingincident has brought over the pastfew days. They are good people andhave contributed greatly to Kansassince their arrival here a decade agofrom Boston and Austin.

17 August 2008
at 6:45 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

See what I mean? The above poster is supporting this guy, and he is obviously a fellow “academic”.
17 August 2008
at 7:18 p.m.

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WHY (Anonymous) says…

What is funny is that if he were a college basketball coach of a winning team he would be get a one day suspension. We have all seen coaches through fits, through chairs, and scream like idiots. Maybe sports have finally infiltrated the academic world.
17 August 2008
at 8:09 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

As I view Shanahan, he is completely out of control and exhibits nearly insane instability. What I want to know is, why is the condemnation centered only on Shanahan? It appears to me that the female coach was just as volatile and abusive and agressive. The difference I see is that she had several people (students?) trying to hold her back, taking her out of the room, calming her down, and standing between her and Shanahan, whereas Shanahan's students were standing around hanging their heads in shame, doing nothing to bring him under control. The behavior of both debate coaches was abhorrent and both deserve admonishment, and both deserve negative marks on their resumes for their unbelievably uncivil behavior.
17 August 2008
at 8:16 p.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

Grant all affirmative case solvency, try to win the round with a Malthus position!
17 August 2008
at 8:18 p.m.

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beobachter (Anonymous) says…

asbestos, simple reason for no conservatives in college ranks. they are too greedy and too busy making money.
17 August 2008
at 8:35 p.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

asbestos (Anonymous) says:See what I mean? The above poster is supporting this guy, and he is obviously a fellow “academic”._____________________________________________________Yeah. “Academicism.” Right down there with “liberaism.”Has to be “academicism.” It couldn't possibly be that RiverCityConservative knows Shanahan, or knew Shanahan sometime in the past…and you…don't.Or didn't. Ever.:rolleyes:—Ag
17 August 2008
at 8:54 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

“… And as the decibels of this disenchanting discourseContinue to dampen the dayThe coin flips again and again and again and againAs our santity walks awayLook where all this talking got us baby”- Live
17 August 2008
at 9:05 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

“: And as the decibels of this disenchanting discourseContinue to dampen the dayThe coin flips again and again and again and againAs our *sanity* walks awayLook where all this talking got us baby”- Live [ accursed Internet lyrics ]

17 August 2008
at 9:50 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

“asbestos, simple reason for no conservatives in college ranks. they are too greedy and too busy making money.”Must be why the “poor liberals” want to take it away other peoples money and give it to others.
18 August 2008
at 10:11 a.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Agnostik posted:”Has to be “academicism.” It couldn't possibly be that RiverCityConservative knows Shanahan, or knew Shanahan sometime in the past:”Yes it has to be because the guy stated he was a colleague:”I know Bill Shanahan and when my family and I were living in Hays several years ago he and I were colleagues on the faculty at Fort Hays State University, he in communications and me in special education/ESL.”What part of that did you miss?
18 August 2008
at 10:37 a.m.

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penguin (Anonymous) says…

I hear ya deskboy…I agree grant case=life and add a Wipeout CP to give the Malthus position both an in round and policy impact :)
18 August 2008
at 10:44 a.m.

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storm (Anonymous) says…

“His tirade was abusive, he got all up in the woman's face, but when the man steps up to him he starts talking in a reasonable tone, which speaks volumes.” Beatrice, I observed that too..the professor's abusive nature was confirmed when he became agitated when a different woman confronted him.
18 August 2008
at 11:28 a.m.

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ctrmhero (Anonymous) says…

Wow am I glad I did not go Piss State (PSU) or Fat Ho State (FSU). I was in forensics in college and forensics and debate in high school. People would never dream what goes on at tourneys if you have never been to one. Oh the college days with horny intellectual consenting women.
18 August 2008
at 11:42 a.m.

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beatrice (Anonymous) says…

Asbestos taking a stand against education — why am I not at all surprised?
18 August 2008
at 11:43 a.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

I think that a time frame argument would apply here…when do the impacts happen?