Archive for Saturday, September 1, 2007

Unusual hearing follows traffic stop

September 1, 2007


West facing four misdemeanor charges

An unusual trial took place today in Douglas County District Court. Enlarge video

A different kind of traffic trial

Laura West talks about why she fought the traffic charges against her, and how Americans can claim their sovereignty.

Laura West claims the Kansas Highway Patrol trooper who stopped her "vessel" on the night of June 11 west of Lawrence had no right to arrest her.

She's never had a driver's license and doesn't need one, West said as she represented herself Friday in Douglas County District Court.

"I was not operating a vehicle; I was exercising my right to travel," West, 21, told Judge Robert Fairchild. "I was in a private vessel on a religious mission."

West also said her vessel is her private dwelling.

West is charged with not having a driver's license, improper vehicle registration, failure to dim headlights and obstructing the legal process, all misdemeanors. West was arrested and taken to the Douglas County Jail after it took 45 minutes to get her to step out of the van she was driving, Trooper Brady Flannigan said.

West was traveling with her partner, J.M. Sovereign: Godsent, and her 2-year-old daughter. West and Godsent, who testified as her only witness, said they were afraid of the trooper and his supervisor, who was called to the scene of the car stop at U.S. Highway 40 and the South Lawrence Trafficway. They made calls to 911 and claimed West was being kidnapped as she was arrested.

The couple, who were on their way to visit a friend in Lawrence when they were stopped, recorded the encounter with the troopers and submitted a CD of the recording to the judge.

According to Godsent and information he presented to reporters outside court, the couple belong to a group that claims the U.S. is not a country but a foreign corporation that has invaded America. They are concerned about implanted identification chips and say sovereign Americans are being forced to choose between God's law and man's law.

Godsent said the trooper was presented with a card after he stopped them. The card was labeled "Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force." By the trooper accepting the card he was accepting a contract to pay a $15,000 gold fee for each question he asked. Godsent said they will take the matter to court to get paid.

Meanwhile, West, who is free on $1,500 bond, will return to court Oct. 1, when Fairchild will announce his verdicts in the case. If found guilty, West could face fines and jail sentences. Fairchild wanted to make a decision on the case next week, but West wasn't available then.


Steve Jacob 8 years, 2 months ago

This lady will be lucky to keep SRS out of this mess. Probally the easiest win for whoever asst. DA gets this case.

And do you want to bet Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force is on some FBI watch list?

matahari 8 years, 2 months ago

Interesting. Definately a free thinker and 'ouside the box' or 'inside the vessell' as the case may be. A lot of people (preachers etc) use religous 'ideas' or what they call rights to collect money, brainwash people, get 'prayer breaks' at work etc as red tape or to get away with all kinds of stuff. That's why seperation of church and state should be so important an issue as it is. Abuse of freedom of religous practices is rampant in America.

busymom 8 years, 2 months ago

This couple needs medical help, or, perhaps they are going for an insanity plea.

ronwell_dobbs 8 years, 2 months ago

Actually States tend to have reciprocal agreements with each other State for the purpose of honoring each State's driving "privelege" that was granted to the holder of the State's license. This ensures some uniformity in the ability to suspend a driver's license in a State and have it considered suspended in all other States. This is the "administrative" level of licensing.

As a separate matter, the laws of each State govern whether the holder of the license are operating a motor vehicle correctly in that State. If disobeying the law, then a legal remedy (i.e. fines and jail, or statuatory license suspension for DUI) can be applied.

I am really trying to get a read on whether this set of folks would be considered way far to the rightish (past Libertarian), or way to the left (Anarchist). Anyone have an opinion on this?

Moderateguy 8 years, 2 months ago

Hmmm. Right after the Wakarusa Festival. Not surprising. Time she got a little dose of societal reality. The really tragic thing is her 2 year old daughter might end up as screwed up as she is.

ohjayhawk 8 years, 2 months ago

The story gets even more strange if you watch the video that is with the article. She claims that "the U.S. is not a country but a foreign corporation that has invaded America". However, she is going to sue the officers who pulled her over and anyone else who tries to push this forward because it is "unconstitutional". How can you hide behind the Constitution of a government you don't even believe has sovereignty?

usesomesense 8 years, 2 months ago

It's rather interesting that they say they don't recognize the authority of the U.S. Government, yet they handed the trooper a card that was a 'contract' for $15,000 per question that they intend to go to court - the U.S. Government's court (at least at the local level) - and expect it to be enforced.

I had a guy apply for a job about a decade ago that made similar claims. He insisted that he did not have to pay income tax, as it was unconstitutional (or something like that) and claimed he had documentation from the IRS proving he (and everyone else) didn't need to pay it either. He was downright fanatical about it - to the point of not getting the job.

ohjayhawk 8 years, 2 months ago

ronwell - states do have reciprocal agreements to prevent someone with an already suspended license to get a license in their state. However, there was just a story on our small-town television station just recently that showed how easily people can get through the loopholes in that. A person got pulled over for their 3rd or 4th DUI and knew that their license was GOING to be suspended in West Virginia. So, before the trial, they went into a neighboring state (I can't remember if it was PA or OH) and got a valid license BEFORE theirs was suspended in WV. Then, they ended up killing someone in another DUI crash using a valid license from another state.

I'm not saying there needs to be a federal drivers license, but I think there are some loopholes in the existing system that must be closed.

pace 8 years, 2 months ago

the right to travel and the right to privacy are understood but not guaranted.

doc1 8 years, 2 months ago

ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, oh my gosh. Oh wait,........ ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. wait a sec ok, I'm ok.......... No I'm not, ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.


Sharon Roullins 8 years, 2 months ago

She sounds almost as interesting as Miss South Carolina Teen contestant, just a little more informed.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Actually a Kansas driver's license is both a privilege and a right (as if there is any difference, there isn't just look up the definitions). Moondust and her merry ban of travelers are neither privileged nor have the right to drive on Corporate America's (tm) roads without a license.

(c) 2007, SigmundPosts! (tm). This post is copyrighted and by publishing or reading this material the The World Company, the LJW Online, Dolf, Jr., their successors and/or assigns, and all their readers therein are hereby obligated to pay SigmundPosts! (tm) one (1) US gold coin minted by the US treasury in any denomination. Upon such payment, SigmundPosts! (tm) grants the payor a non-transferable revocable license granting both a limited privilege and a limited right, (as if there is any difference, there isn't, just look up the definitions) to read or reread this post in perpetuity.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Having received no payments, you all will be hearing from my attorneys!

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

BTW, I just checked my calender and I can get October 1 off! Can't wait to see if Fairchild can keep a straight face.

matahari 8 years, 2 months ago

I have some interesting stuff on law and govt books today at my yard sale, granted it's commerce, but hey, I am a citizen, right? (see larryville) Perhaps it's just a way to get publicity? They say (and movie stars know best) bad publicity is better than NO publicity, wonder how many members of this church there are?

kansas778 8 years, 2 months ago

I don't think SigmundPosts! is distinct enough to qualify for trademark protection. It is merely descriptive, and there's no secondary meaning associated with it.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

I am jealous. Fairchild will have enough material to last a year or two of stories over cocktails. . . . Make sure to check out the Channel 6 video to catch a glimpse of the partner taking the witness stand.

staff04 8 years, 2 months ago

How funny...

And Marion is surprisingly compassionate this morning!! Nice to see you from this angle, sir!

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 2 months ago

This sounds like many fundie christian wacko beliefs about the rapture and God's kingdom and intrusion of a "secular god". To me, these folks are one in the same.

Bat-sh1+ crazy is bat-sh1+ crazy, whether you are a christian or whatever.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Yahoo! (TM) isn't any more distinct than SigmundPosts! (TM, pending).

ohjayhawk 8 years, 2 months ago

americorp - In the video, they report that her group claim to be "exempt from the laws". If she is "exempt from the laws", she can't in good faith sue because she feels what is being done to her is "unconstitutional". The U.S. Constitution is what determines the set of laws we abide by in this country. She can't have it both ways. Sorry.

ronwell_dobbs 8 years, 2 months ago

Maybe a bit more esoteric question, but I wonder who, in their world viewpoint, would actually establish what quantity of gold would be valued at $15,000?

I do feel a bit of sympathy for someone who views the external world as so terribly threatening. It is somewhat instructive, however, when encountering a story like this, to realize that the structures such as government, finance, laws, etc. really are just rhetorical constructions in some sense. What gives them power is that we all believe in them with such firm conviction. Just sayin'.

Bladerunner 8 years, 2 months ago

Why cant' the Judge make a ruling on the spot? What could Judge Fairchild possibly have to research in this case? Previous case law on anarchists who don't recognize our governments authority? Lets get this Whacko nutjob sentenced and banished from our community.

Flap Doodle 8 years, 2 months ago

Was she using the public road that was built and is maintained by the evil running dogs of capitalism and the Trilateral Commission? When she bought gas for her vessel did she pay the blood-money tax that nourishes the vampires of the world-spanning corporations? She's as guilty as the rest of us!

BTW, Save the Stump!

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

I suppose she has the right to defend her ticket even if her logic lacks sense. But it does bother me that she is threatening a lawsuit against the officer who was merely doing his job. I wonder what her religion would say about threatening another with a lawsuit.

Sean Livingstone 8 years, 2 months ago

If I'm the state, I'd have sued her for infringement of other persons' rights (driving without proper certification and training means harming people on the road and endangering the lives of others) and that is also unconstitutional.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 8 years, 2 months ago

ronwell_dobbs says: "I am really trying to get a read on whether this set of folks would be considered way far to the rightish (past Libertarian), or way to the left (Anarchist). Anyone have an opinion on this?"

I would think libertarian. Everyone controls their own lives.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Not to worry about the Orc Brady. As it turns out The State of Mordor (TM) has the obligation to defend it's Orc's while in the performance of their official duties of oppressing Sovereign American Hobbits. At last count, Witch-king Kathy Saruman had approximately a million Fair Child Wizards and associated Ringwraiths with Law Degrees at the ready to descend upon the hapless Gandalf Sent Travelers and seize The Ring of Power! Not even Strider will be able to see them through to the Top Peaka of Mount Doom.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

idarastar 8 years, 2 months ago

This does seem like an extreme case. It seems like a greek drama in the since that it deals with the law of the land vs. the law of god. For those interested more of the ideology behind this 'sovereign civilian' group, I found their home page here:

waydownsouth 8 years, 2 months ago

Where is this girl from? And where can I get one of those cards? $15,000 a question! I think i'll stand outside the courthouse and hand them out like party favors.

creamygnome 8 years, 2 months ago

At least she only has one kid so far. Lots of tax paying families in this country have 7, 8, a dozen kids they can't properly take care of. Give her time though, I bet she doesn't believe in birth control.

idarastar 8 years, 2 months ago

J.M. Sovereign: Godsent is the creator of this sovereign civilian group and they sell this information on the website i posted for $25 (originally $100). Exciting stuff! haha

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

I don't think this woman and her partner fall into any ideological box any of us would recognize, and I'm betting their religious beliefs won't find them at any familiar house of worship this weekend.

I would think closer to anarchist than anything else, simply because Lawrence has an anarchist contingent that might be the "friends" she was here to visit.

Anyhow, I'm cheering for them. 90% of the traffic laws, and 98% of the actual tickets written (all purely manufactured statistics) are just BS anyhow. Indeed, there's not much difference between the silliness of her comedic defense, and the prosecution's pretense of giving you an actual trial in these kangaroo traffic "courts" (read collection agencies). I hope she drives them nuts and finds a real judge who might just get a giggle out of giving her a bite at the apple.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

The Godless communists are stealing our precious bodily fluids. That's why she's so scrawny.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago


Maybe she could get the beauty queen gal to represent her. Between the complete absence of thinking on both their parts, they could introduce a new way of thinking into the judicial process that could make it even goofier than it is now, hence generating even more legal fees for the wise counsel who learns to adapt.

Old goof:

Welcome back, how was you trip, speaking of wandering vessels?

cms 8 years, 2 months ago

Awesome! Make my day to read this story.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

I wouldn't worry about her bodily fluids. Anyone that dingy is probably finding plenty of sources for refilling her with bodily fluids, what with her having a portable vessel and all. Perhaps a fertility based religion, it is.

kansas778 8 years, 2 months ago

Yahoo is distinct because the name has nothing to do with internet surfing, thus it's arbitrary. It's like Apple computers, the word has nothing to do with computers though it's a common word. SigmundPosts! would be like an internet browser trying to trademark the name WebSurfer!

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

Uhlrick. 90% of all traffic laws, and 98% of the actual tickets written are BS? What about the other half of the tickets?

On a serious note. Take a look at the grim statistics on the number of traffic fatalaties each year. Traffic laws are there for good reason!

muddfoot55 8 years, 2 months ago

My guess is that these 2 met in some institution some where and share the same paranoid delusion. ......and just happen to get out the same day. Who knows where they came from. They may truly believe they ARE from some alternate universe/society. Lawrence attracts lots of unusual folks.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

"Her views are no more outlandish than those of the solid citizens who regularly stink up these boards with their comparisons of Lawrence City Council members and Democratic politicians to mass-murdering Communist dictators."

What you say!?!? You know what you doing. Move 'zig'. You are on the way to destruction. For great justice. All Your Base Are Belong To US!

50YearResident 8 years, 2 months ago

Looks like too much LSD to me, and "GodSent" mush have changed her name from JesusFreek. I bet she can't prove her identification.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

On a serious note, there is no correlation between the number of tickets written and the number of traffic deaths. That would be an even goofier number than the ones I cited.

If you take a look at when they're writing these tickets, it usually isn't when the highways are full of commuters whizzing down the road bumper to bumper at 80 MPH, it's more like this deal where the cop nails some straggler who isn't within a mile of another vehicle, or like the Lawrence cops who have been nailing folks for driving over 20 mph in a "work" zone where no one is actually working.

If you assume that the traffic laws are actually rational, you have to assume that all of us are criminals at heart, because I'm betting that not one person on this board who's been in a vehicle today has not broken a traffic law and potentially been faced with contributing to some cop's revenue enhancement quota.

promitida 8 years, 2 months ago

I feel soooo sorry for the cops that had to deal with her.

lawrencechick 8 years, 2 months ago

This girl is obviously delusional, as well as malnourished. I hope someone is looking into the welfare of her baby.

revshackleford 8 years, 2 months ago

"we have so many people in America that does not belong here" Absolutely correct, everyone should have a fourth grader's command of the English language before being granted citizenship and access to the internet(s).

I started reading this article for entertainment value but ended up chuckling in agreement instead of with derision. I've no wish to join their particular cult but they make a couple of good points with their blows against the empire. Also, I must have missed this in the article, but what was the crime for which their vessel was detained?

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

Uhlrick. Traffic enforcement cannot issue tickets to commuters whizzing down the highway bumper to bumper at 80 mph (while on a cell phone), because pulling someone over at this time would be dangerous.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

As luck would have it, I was just out in the garage and stumbled across copies of Abbie Hoffman's Woodstock Nation and Jerry Rubin's We Are Everywhere. I suspect I could pull a few gems out of those that would fit right in with this gal's discussion. God help us if there's not room for someone like this woman and her partner in our society anymore.

Richard Heckler 8 years, 2 months ago

I have to appreciate their creative arguments and perhaps also does the judge.

What does a drivers license do or not do? It is not make a good driver necessarily It does not prevent drunk driving It does not prevent speeding in spite of the manual and drivers test It does provide a means of indentification * It does not prevent driving necessarily even if suspended

So why not have a USA ID card presented at the age of 16 that never needs renewing yet reveals your driving history,is considered proper ID and allows driving anywhere in the USA. Are USA drivers licenses valid abroad?

revshackleford 8 years, 2 months ago

Sorry, went back and reread the article r.e. the alleged crimes against traffic safety; must have been reading before the coffee kicked in this morning.

Confrontation 8 years, 2 months ago

Someone needs to rescue her child. Everyone thinks their parents are weird, but this child has a guarantee.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

WebSurfer! (TM, pending). My lawyers will be in touch!

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

Uhlrick. I don't assume traffic laws are rational. I believe this. For instance, I know exactly what to do when the light turns purple.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

My heavens, from what I can tell, this woman has done nothing to threaten the life, health, or property of anyone, and dimming her headlights aside, is basically being charged for not having the appropriate government file cabinet present in and on her "vessel" at the time when an armed government collector demanded them, and the good people of Lawrence want to take her child away from her and put her in an institution?

What beliefs do you hold that a government tribunal might find odd? How about your opposition to the war on terror? After all how could you not support our efforts to combat Islamic extremism? And what about leaving your child with a known homosexual, or other sexual deviant? Hmmmmm......?

You fundies are all waiting to be transported to heaven in the flash of an eye, are you? And you think we were created how....?

Imagine what you might look like to this little gal, if you want strange.

mick 8 years, 2 months ago

45 minutes to step out of her van. That would make an excellent video. Someone should do a one-act play on this.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

Wonder if she's posted her bond yet, or if this dangerous criminal is still sitting in the Douglas County hoosegow lest we be subject to her oddities?

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago


I love it. That CD would be worth it's weight in gold, and, I think it's public domain either now, or after the trial is over.

Bubarubu 8 years, 2 months ago

As idarastar points out, J.M. Sovereign: Godsent is an author!. Read his nonsense here: rather than buying the book. Really funny is his procedure for claiming sovereignty over a courtroom displaying a military (yellow-fringed) flag. You bring in one that is non fringed, claim you have conquered them with your superior flag, and then the judge is Constitutionally bound to honor your commands. I would think conquering a military representative without one of your own would go badly, but apparently. Mr. Sovereign: Godsent thinks otherwise. He has the support of at least one well-renowned expert on international law whose testimony can be found here:

saltchunkmary 8 years, 2 months ago

Her use of the word traveling vs. driving is an interesting distinction. Taking no sides, here is some food for thought.....

CASE #1: "The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.

CASE #3: "The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: "The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

If this vessel is also her dwelling, that means that she does not have a permanent address. If that is true, she is not a resident of any state. Where would she apply for a license, and where would she register her vessel?

BrianR 8 years, 2 months ago

Marion, That would be JFN NOS, Just F'n Nuts, Not Otherwise Specified.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

The law gives you the right to travel, the means of conveyance is another story. if you want to scoot along on your Hush Puppies that's one thing, but in order to embrace her argument, I'm thinking you would have to have the right to have a large vessel also, and I don't think that right exists - yet.

FormerCentralKansan 8 years, 2 months ago

I can't say I'm surprised about any of this. I can't count the number of wayward souls who tried to sell me similar far-fetched stories here in Lawrence. Alien abductions, solar flares, Eschelon, Govt. intimidation, false imprisonment, and IRS schemes are popular topics among many of the working class here in town.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Whatever happened to the tweaker with his foot in the bucket on his front porch? Anyone?

Richard Heckler 8 years, 2 months ago

Just because these folks have different interpretations of traffic laws and are able to present a creative approach in the courtroom does not necessarily make them weird,stupid or bad parents. Quite the contrary. Remaining in their van 45 minutes displays some notion that they are aware of their rights due to some degree of research and questioning authority is healthy. Fine parents I would say who are parenting a future thinker not a sheep.

I encourage the couple to carry on with this challenge. No doubt they have earned some respect from the court.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago


Right on! If This wasn't Saturday, and I wasn't so lazy, I'd go out and type in a few quotes from Messrs Hoffman and Rubin, that might even have influenced the judge, that would sound just as crazy to lot of folks. So what's the damage they're doing, reducing the profit margin of the fines? If so, great?

doc1 8 years, 2 months ago

"West belongs to a group that claims the U.S. is not a country but a foreign corporation that has invaded America."

They must not believe in shampoo either.

erod0723 8 years, 2 months ago

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:

Jesus, this sounds like an episode of Law & Order:

Law and Order: Crazy Hippie Traffic Court.

Thanks you LJW for making my day!

BrianR 8 years, 2 months ago

I'm fairly certain that you can't be exempt from the law just because you say you are.

I am well -

Wow, Uhlrick, I'd completely forgotten about Hoffman and Rubin.

erod0723 8 years, 2 months ago

Ulrick wrote, And what about leaving your child with a known homosexual, or other sexual deviant? Hmmmmm::?

Um Ulrick, homosexuality isn't sexually deviant behavior. It's just man on man or girl on girl action. Compared to some of the crap you can find on the internet (s&m, rape porn, child exploitation) it's rather tame. How bout you tone down your bigotry and hatred. I have friends who have gay parents, and the kids turned out just fine. What a child needs most in their life is loving parents that care abou the child and successfully provide for the welfare of the child. Regardless to what you think, homosexuals are not out to turn your kid gay or lesbian.

riverrat2 8 years, 2 months ago

Takes all kinds doesn't it? Here's a quote from another nut job:

"I am the emperor, and I'm here to take over state government"-Proclamation by gunman who was shot dead as he was being escorted from the governor's office, as quoted by governor spokesman Evan Dreyer. Colorado State Troopers said he refused to drop his gun.

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

"We're on a mission from God".

-Dan Aykroyd

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

Sigmund, ever seen that movie: "footloose?"

by the way, I think you could do "sigmundposts if you did something funny like: Signumundp0sts; or Sigmund|Posts. with corporate offices overlooking the mighty E coli creek in sw lawrence?

interesting how some in their antichristian prejudices automaticly make these odd folks into conservative christians, which they're not. somehow, I don't think their van/suv doesn't meet the full definition of a "vessel!"

wonder how many aspirin the first officer on the scene needed that night? poor guy.
I love that, they don't recognize the government, but they will happily use the same government's courts to sue in enforcing their nutty $1500-gold per question game? even in their state they have to see how silly that really is.
so, can we expect Geraldo to fly in to lawrence to interview these people now???

erod0723 8 years, 2 months ago

"I was not operating a vehicle; I was exercising my right to travel," West, 21, told Judge Robert Fairchild. "I was in a private vessel on a religious mission."

Time wasted by resisting to getting out of vehicle: 45 minutes cost per question by the officer per the "contract": 15000 gold Having a crazy hippie be the best story on a slow news Saturday: priceless.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

What a laugh riot and a brilliant marketing strategy!!!!

Who'd have ever thought to find such an entertaining comment thread here? Go figure, only in America will you find Athiests bashing Christians, Christians bashing gays, gays bashing internet obcenities, Right wing-Whackos bashing Anarchists, Anarchists bashing hippies, Hippies bashing commercial law courts. All because one Kansas State Trooper broke the law to issue a misdemeanor traffic citation and one little angel decided that she loves her freedom and her country.

Has anyone here reviewed the actual record of the court or heard the audio reocrding of the incident? Has anyone considered that this young lady's argument might be based in the truth, facts, and law?

It would be appropriate to take note she stood trial and defended herself with knowledge of law and procedure, and that at no time did the judge ever say that she out of order or procedurally incorrect. How many of you can defend yourself in a trial?

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Sovereignty is everyone's birthright but immunity from commercial law is aside from the point here.

I happen to have studied law extensively, and the bottom line is that the criminal code for the United States at Title 18, U.S.C.A. ch. 13. sec. 242 states that it is a felony to break the law to enforce the law. The Trooper took an oath to uphold the constitution and he violated the oath by disregarding the FACT that the Ms. West's body and the van he stopped(her only Dwelling House) is protected by the 4th ammendment against unlawful search and siezure. He used thread of deadly force to write a misdemeanor ticket and seize her body without due process. Plain and simple. He made the decision to violate his oath personally or was mislead by his employer to believe that he can break the law to write a misdemeanor ticket.

That is enough to get the case dropped, get him put in prison, and get the girl payed.

The characters on this thread with the aggressively opinionated comments don't seem to have a very firm grip on the concept of civil procedure and due process of law nor the intelligence to facilitate an understanding of law. These are the kind of people that have to get a lawyer to represent them because they are incompetent to follow procedure.

It appears that this young lady has indeed done her homework and taken the neceesary steps to protect her rights and prove her case.

The group that Ms. West is associated with happens to be the the American People. That is, people who are born in the 50 united States. She notices the world of her patriotism by flying red, white and blue, specifially described in the United States Code Annotated Ch. 1 Sec. 1. to notice world and the commercial courts (that fly the Army regulations 840-10 military gold fringed flag for the court of court martial) that she is a Private Sovereign civilian so that they can take the private common law into consideration upon making thier decision.

I happen to have read the little book she metioned "TITLE 4 FLAG SAYS YOU'RE SCHWAG! Your Simple Guide to Sovereignty" is a powerhouse of straegy for defending ones self, family and property from renegade enforcers and governmnet corruption. The strategies therein have been used to protect Americans from bogus charges for nearly two decades and are consistent from state to state.

There is a myspace for it at

It's a pretty tight and very entertaining little read but it's definitely not for those who believe that all government agents are perfect and the legal system is God. Better off let sleeping dogs lie.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago


In your haste to denounce me as a bigot you missed the message of my post. All of our views are odd to someone, I was simply referencing some of the positions we all take day-in, day-out that we think are based on absolute truth that are construed by others to be deviant.

In the cases I used, to a conservative government, those who protest the war in Iraq may be perceived as traitors. Also, since the subject of this woman's child-rearing came up, to a conservative, homosexuality is sexual deviancy and they might be inclined to turn someone in to SRS for leaving their child with a lesbian, or gay male.

Alternatively, those on the left find the beliefs of those on the right to be deviant, as you just did with my example of conservative thought.

Go back and read the post again, I endorsed none of the views I used as examples, but merely made the point that oddity (as well as deviancy), as you demonstrated with your response, is in the eye of the beholder.

In any case, your argument on that point is not with me.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

Aha, and since we now have someone here who understands this woman's argument, perhaps he/she can enlighten us as to the political philosophy, if there is one, of this woman's views, and the nature of her religious beliefs.

pity2bu 8 years, 2 months ago

Just three more fruit loops that drove to town to join the other 64000 Lawrence already has as residents.... Most of you bloggers normally agree and stand up for these kind of people where is the love today... She is speaking the language most of you associate with. Please tell me if I'm wrong and I will gladly watch the future blogging a little closer and tell you when you stray back toward her way of thinking...

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

It's not that we agree with every idea that's expressed, it's that we're open to listening to the ideas of others. You should try it sometime..

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Well, she's an American born in a state. Apparently she believes in God and it seems that she has a pretty good understanding of what the founding fathers intended when they gave birth to this great nation with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for the fifty States. She apparently knows the different divisions of law in the courts and knows how to make the distinction between them. Not only that but it seems she has discovered exactly how the State citizens are regulary coerced to trade their freedom for servitude and she seems driven to share her knowledge of law with as many people as are willing to claim their inheritance of Sovereignty and live free.

She was born in a State, she displays the proper red, white and blue, defends herself with the constitution and the knowledge of the law, and expects to be payed real money for her time like a bona-fide capitalist. She seems to have a slight inclination to entrepeneurial self-presevation and knows how to take advantage of free media attention to promte her private enterprises.

Yup, she sounds like shes a real American to me.

ronwell_dobbs 8 years, 2 months ago

OK, America_the_Beautiful, I'll bite. What political and religious affiliation would you say she best espouses?

I also have some studies in the law and realize that there is a framework to her reasoning, even if it is quite shaky on rational grounds (i.e. sometimes appealing to the sovereignty that she otherwise doesn't recognize). However, if you've ever studied Noam Chomsky you'll know that the powers of this land must and will fight this approach vigorously, lest the idea of a revolution (freedom from current authority) somehow were to take hold.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

America the Beautiful brings up an interesting point about the fourth amendment. It surely applies to mobile homes, motor homes, travel trailers, and, in this case, a van that serves as a home. There is no mention in the 4th amendment that protection from unreasonable search applies only to houses attached to a foundation.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

Point of information: I believe there is actually such a thing as a USA driver's license. I used to work with an Army officer at Ft. Leavenworth who had one. (He presented it for ID when we traveled on business.) He had lived on Federal reservations for many years. I'm guessing he didn't pay any state income taxes.... Don't ask me any details... I don't know any...

Frederic Gutknecht IV 8 years, 2 months ago

I met that gal. I don't remember exactly what she said to me but I know what I said to her when she handed me one of her cards.

"What's this? What? You've kidding, right? Are you inSANE? You don't really expect me to pay do you?"

I wonder what she did with the $75K I gave her.

liamzbd 8 years, 2 months ago

I thought that normally when you get arrested, they won't let you take your own video because it's an "obstruction of arrest." Did it not matter with them or something?

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Awright, now yer gettin' at it. I couldn't tell you about her religious beliefs without trackin' her down and interviewing her. It appears her political affiliation is American and her beliefs seem to derive from the body of law that is the American Jurisprudence. She points out that that the constitution allows essentially three kinds of courts in this country at Article 3 sec. 1 for common law(injured party) , civil(private contract) and admiralty/maritme(commerce) and is making a distinction between them on the court's record to get the judge to rule from the right body of law. Common-law by saying she's a human and not a trade good/slave.

She made clear reference to the UCC which was adopted in 1965 by all public agencies aka, TITLE 18 CH.1 SEC.9 "Vessels of the United States(corporation)" and noticed the court that a maritime(commercial law) tribunal is not the right venue to hear matters of private law.

As a matter of using the state civil law courts to collect on the contract for the $15,000 gold per question, well, I guess she knows which venue will hear that matter; civil private contract court.

Federal civil for the title 42 ch.21 sec. 1983 redress of grievances and federal criminal court for the title 18 ch13 sec 241, 242 deprivation of rights under color of law.

She gave the trooper at the scene a card identifying herself as an independent agent for the Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force, the one with the fee scedule for the questioning.

So I guess her politcal affiliation would bethe Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force.

Charles L Bloss Jr 8 years, 2 months ago

We do need a federal driver's license, and a federal concealed carry permit. Oh wait, we already have that. There is such a thing as an international driver's license. Maybe she should get one of those? These poor people obviously have mental problems, and are probably starving as well. What better place for them to land than Lawrence, the liberal capital of Kansas. Someone will take care of all their needs here, God Bless Them. Thank You, Lynn

Charles L Bloss Jr 8 years, 2 months ago

After researching this matter further, I believe I should take this young woman under my wing and see to her needs personally. No charge, of course. I will see that her friends are well fed as well. Thank You, Lynn

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

ATB, there have been "many creative" approaches to the law over the years, but the Courts don't give points for style. Most of Moonbeams arguments are NOT new and have already been addressed by various Courts, I might hasten to add those decisions do not bode well for your position. If there is any hint of actual new legal argument here, which I doubt, I am sure Fairchild will simply find an existing statute or existing case to support a new interpretation with unfavorable repercussions for your position. You have already lost, you just don't know it yet.

Might I add, while Moonbeam may be a few monoliths short of Stonehenge, if she tries suing enough people for asking legitimate questions because you hand them a card with a supposed binding contract, after hitting her with judgments to pay the costs of opposing parties for filing frivolous lawsuits, and after they laugh you out of the courthouse, you might find your access to the courts have been restricted.

My favorite "creative" legal argument (at least in Kansas) involved the widow who was charged with the murder. She wanted her attorney to argue that it wasn't the bullet in the head from the gun that she fired that caused her husbands death. Nope it was the hole in his head which allowed all the blood to run out! You all can guess how well that went over.

Honestly, I have seen more creative and better thought out legal arguments from High School kids, some of which actually worked. Never underestimate the "evil twin defense", especially if you actually have a twin! Failing any identical siblings, you could always try conjugating the emancipation proclamation, and the highly coveted Chewbacca Defense,

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

and for all those naysayers, heres the Federal US Code definition of 'Motor Vehicle' at ...

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 2 > § 31. Definitions

(6) Motor vehicle.- The term "motor vehicle" means every description of carriage or other contrivance propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used for COMMERCIAL purposes on the highways in the transportation of passengers, passengers and property, or property or cargo.

Read it and weep...for commercial purposes!!!!!!!!!!! Maritime court. C.C.: RULE~12(b)(3)improper venue.

camper 8 years, 2 months ago

America the beautiful. You have given us much insight. But can you tell us in English what you are saying? Forgive me, but legal grammar makes me realize how stupid I am. Can you draw a picture for us?

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Peculiar, for putting so many words on the page Sigmund doesn't seem to be saying anything.

All of his words suggest that all goverment employees can do no wrong, are perfect and worshippable and all private citizens so full of error that they they need video cameras in their bedrooms.

It sounds like he's a bit frustrated with life and get his attention(embarrases himself) by hiding behind internet blogs and critcizing people who are willing to do something about corruption in the government and state troopers that think they are above the law.

Has any one noticed that this man is full of NONSENSE!

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

ATB, your a few fries short of a Happy Meal (TM), but this is going to be entertaining! Worth the price of admission on Oct 1, which is free and open to the public (unless you try and charge admission on a gold coin). You may have confused and astounded your friends at parties, but unless you raised this and every other kooky idea and point of law in the original hearing, guess what? It is irrelevant even if it is true! See you don't get to keep raising point after point after point. The court will consider only your arguments at trail, show how you are wrong and convict you.

Be sure to appeal within 30 days if you want to take it to the Court of Appeals.

idarastar 8 years, 2 months ago

FYI: There is a such thing as an International Driver's License. It's just another kind of documentation that says you belong to something. I was speaking about these kind of things the other day. You can't have a child without it being registered. Everyone needs to be issued a federal social security number. If you google your name, you will find records in newspapers online. Everyone is creating a database with their information that will be kept in public records (myspace/facebook/etc...). If you get married, divorced, die, it is documented. There is no way to just live like the animals do. Is this because you are a product of the united states? Or is this because humans are the "step up to animals" because are brains/actions are more developed? The only animals that are really kept track of for the longest time are the ones that are owned by the farmers - mass produced for consumption. Reading the website created by this Sovereign: GodSent does have some valid points, but just is a little extremist. I don't foresee myself taking action to change my birth certificate from reading my given name to I HAVE NO NAME or anything like that but I do understand their concern to live freely in the name of god abiding by moral laws rather than city-state laws. With my empathetic thoughts about what has happened and their situation, I do still understand that it is possible to put up with the laws that are punishable by the government and live by the laws of heart in the privacy of my home. Look at the mormons - polygamists. Against the government but still practiced in their home because it is not looked down upon within their community. In my opinion, one must not pass judgement on anyone due to one's moral laws because they differ from each person, but should just look past it and let them live their life as you live yours.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 8 years, 2 months ago

Good Grief! Look at her picture. She looks just like a friend of mine who was schizophrenic (sp?). She has just hooked up with others who are the same way. I kind of feel sorry for them, but unless they have harmed themselves or others, we can't force them to get treatment, and there are no funds to get them the treatment anyway.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Believe me, I never suggested nor do I believe the Government and their employees never make mistakes. Anyone who has read a handful of my posts knows that and on that point we agree. But in this case, not so much! In a month we shall see what we shall see who is right.

ronwell_dobbs 8 years, 2 months ago

BTW, as for the "contract" that was supposedly formed, ATB should be able to confirm that for proper formation of a contract ("K"), these things must be present:

1.) Offer 2.) Acceptance 3.) Consideration

There are, of course, other things such as capacity to contract, non-duress, etc. that weigh in on it as well. I daresay that perhaps only #1 occured, Therefore, no K.

ronwell_dobbs, esq.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

More pointless Nonsense from Sigmund the sea monster.

As for the factual answer to camper's question:

There are three kinds of courts in the country as per article 3 sec 1.

At Law - where somebody's bleeding and the guy that did it is holding the knife. Posse comatatus and jury of twelve.

Civil law - Rental or lease agreements, car sales, independent contractors. trial to the court.

Admiralty/maritime - Interstate commerce, licensing, banking, taxation, shipping, waterways, loans, insurance, slavery 14th ammendment U.S. citizenship.(not State Citizenship) Enforcement, foot patrol, infantry, aircraft.

The U.S. corporation and all States adopted the Uniform Commercial Code in 1965 making them all courts of commerce.

She merely declared to the record of the court that she does not fall under their jursidiction because she is not a trade good and her activities are private rather than commercial in nature and she's catching hell for that. Why? For undertanding the nature of American law?

She obvioulsy has studied the law gives notice that She's a Sovereign State-born Citizen with the flag of her nation and the birthright-inheritance to the protection of the constitution.

What's so crazy about knowing who you are where you come from and what is rightfully yours and which venue to bring an action in?

And then some dumb witch hunters who don't know old glory from toilet paper have the audacity to say very horrible things about her and declare that she's an unfit mother and that the people of Lawrence should all gang up on her and take her baby away. Sorry dummies this ain't Salem Mass. in 1620. Get an education before you open your yapping trap.

Shame on them. Shame on you for being like them. Volunteering for slavery is one thing but expecting others to, and lashing out at them because they know the law and love their country is the real insanity.

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

this girl has more brain and guts than any of you sheeple.educate yourself.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Good point Ronwell Dobbs esq. Thank you.

dorothyr is piling up wood to burn the witch.

And Sigmund, the trial is already over, and the case is not against me. So your suggestion of the court convicting me digs you further into the realm of nonsense blogger.

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

hey srj, it is not a sure win for the SRS. I ,for one, will help fight for te kid if necessary. we helped get that last hIppies kid back in junction city last month. fight for your rights , sheeple, before it's too late.


Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

ATB, I meant your and Moonbeam's position. Everyone here realizes that. But nice try anyway!

BTW, you owe me money for reading my posts, when can I expect payment?

denak 8 years, 2 months ago

Handing someone a card does not constitute a binding contract. A legal contract needs to have four basic elements 1) Consideration 2) Agreement 3) Contractual Capacity and lastly Lawful Object. Consideration refers to the thing of value given in exchange for a promise. In other words, if you say to someone, "I will cut your grass if you pay me 20 dollars" and if the other person accepts, there is consideration exchanged. The cutting of the grass in exchange for 20 bucks.

There was no consideration exchanged between the police officer and Ms. West. Simply handing someone a card does not constitute consideration. If I came up to you and handed you a card, it doesn't mean anything even if I insist it does.

Secondly, agreement. It is a simple enough concept. In order to enter a contract, both parties must agree to the terms. I seriously doubt the police officer agreed to the terms.

Third, Contractual Capacity. That simply means you have the cognitive ability (and age requirement) to enter into a contract. I'll live it up to you all to determine whether or not she has contractual capacity.

Fourth, lawful object refers, in part, to what is being contracted. A contract to perform an illegal act is void because it is against public policy. By extension, forcing a cop to accept a "contract" that fines him X amount of dollars for each questions, limits the cop's ability to do his job effectively. Therefore, the contract would probably be void because the judge would probably view the cop's ability to do his job and to enforce laws as more important than Ms.West's dubious contract.

No judge is going to take Ms. West seriously and if any lawyer is stupid (or greedy) enough to take up this case, he or she should have to go back to law school and re-take basic contract law.


areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

hey saltchunk, where did you find those references?

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Moonbeam...What a pretty name!

You say it with such endearment. You must really have some attachment to her to be hanging on to this comment thread for dear life. What's in it for you? A kick out of insulting someone that appears helpless.

I'm sure she's a very nice lady and I'm sure you wouldn't say those things about her to her face. If you would you're just an animal in disguise as a human. So what good are you to humanity? Your countrymen? Your corporate empire?

Purpose bra, what's your purpose?

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago


you have a very good point and that supports the commercial contract argument even further,

because if a trooper hands her a presentment and she doesn't accept it then it's void.

Also if she never applied for one driver's license then there is no contractual obligation to accept the terms of the driver's license contract.

I believe that the card was handed to the trooper while he was on duty which makes him obligated to read it, the fee schedule for consultation services was in the offer and the terms: acceptance = payment on demand

In his professional capacity he accepted the card and proceeded to ask questions. What part of acceptance = payment on demand did he not understand. He was being payed to accurately represent the law and he got caught by the Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force for failing to do so. Now he will have to answer to the law and his employer will have to pay a fee for the consultation.

This is a simple commercial contract that can be taken up in a civil venue much like a mechanic's billing for services and action for default.

What's so hard to understand about that. It's a brilliant approach. I'm surprised nobody's thought of it before.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 8 years, 2 months ago

I don't want to burn anyone. My friend, who at her worst was sure the KU anthropology department was attacking her and her daughter (that's why her 16 year old was rebellious), couldn't get it through her head that the anthropology people at KU hardly knew she existed, except for wondering whatever happened to a once brilliant honors student who never applied for graduate school. She finally died of a simple ailment that was easily treatable, because she thought doctors were out to kill people. It was a waste of a brillant mind, but, yes, she had a right to be that way. Fortunately her mother had money, so she was never homeless.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

You people should be burned at the stake for hunting witches. Do you realize how stupid statements like that sound. You sound like kindergarteners.

I bet you're all fat and ugly. I bet you couldn't follow the rules of procedure for a trial either.

You probably all pay attorneys exorbitant fees fines and roll over for plea bargains!

You're probably all underpaid by an employer that's getting rich off of your sweat labor too!


BTW the judge adjourned the court until Oct. 1 to listen to the actual audio recording of the incident and how the evidence and the law presented at the trial pertain to the events recorded on the soundtrack (ie. trooper accepting the contract offer, perjuring himself about notice, violation of oath to uphold constitution, threat duress and coersion), I bet you could get a copy from the web site or maybe their group if you emailed them for it.

Richard Heckler 8 years, 2 months ago

"Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force " = thinkers

Some people in Lawrence believe that the LPD police chief needs a Civilian Police Observation Task Force by his side 24/7 complete with audio/video.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Seriously now Dorothyr,

What exactly does schizophrenia have to do with knowledge of the law and why are you venting your sorrows about the loss of your friend in a law thread?

Objection!! irrelevent.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Moonbeam is a beatiful name and I think it reflects a beautiful spirit and trusting soul. Kind of an endearing nickname.

Whoever corrupted this young womans mind with this load of nonsense is beyond contempt. She reminds me of the Manson family women, completely infatuated by a murderous con man who convinced his women to do his dirty work.

Hopefully it isn't too late for Moonbeam to come to her senses. If for no other reason than for the welfare of her child.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 8 years, 2 months ago

I agree with Sigmund on this one. I'm mourning my friend, as I'm mourning this girl. I hope she comes to her senses before she ends up like my friend.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

people who are mentally ill have are greater need to feel that they have control in their lives, have a 'secret in' that other people do, a trick up their sleeve, to give them that sense of control. mentally ill persons feel this lack of control internally as their sensations emotions and thoughts seem disordered because they are. they also experience a sense of powerlessness because they are imprisoned in mental hospitals, forced to take meds, judged inappropriate for jobs and socially shunned because of their odd looks or odd behavior.
these people focuse on the fringe of the flag (something I've heard as a theory from nuts before) and it is the secret key they can grab on to for that sense of control in their lives. also these folks often show lots of paranoid schizophrenia and other schizophrenias. this is the true def of schizophrenia not as multiple personality.
I do wonder about the potential for dangerous behavior by these people, and apparently, we have two posting on here!

finally, how did she learn of the friend being sick? was it: U.S. postal service-government operated; telephone call on federal and state franchised service? amateur radio, using Federal Communications Commission licenses; or carrier pigeons with no federal contact? see any one with pigeons in your neighborhood?

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

okay, should read "focus" instead of "focuse!"

another commo possibility is: did she hear about it [gasp] through the internet? many nodes of the internet are operated by the federal government and government entities such as universities...shocking!

finally, I have never known Sigmund to make anything less than sense in his posts, he is quite deliberate sensible and sometimes funny. needless to say, I agree with all of his comments above.

Indeed whoever brainwashed poor Moonbeam should be imprisoned.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

Fat and ugly here, there's yet another condition of a valid contract and that's the term of the contract. Where in this process was the term of the contract specified?

Actually, this woman's case is done as far as the first level is concerned. Never mind her arguments about jurisdiction, etc., this is traffic court. She could prove conclusively that her "vessel" had no headlights to dim and she would be found guilty of having them on bright in traffic court. Traffic Court is a collection agency, not a place where you actually get a real trial.

I suspect the real reason the judge took the time was so he could listen to the recording long enough to address it without breaking out in a giggle every few seconds.

Anyhow, apparently the young lady is out on bail. Parents in Leawood? And since she's following this; you have a good time in court young lady. Traffic Court was a joke long before you showed up and it will be interesting to finally see someone treat it with the dignity it so richly deserves. We'll all be following your saga with interest.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

I made an effort to try to see it from their point of view. Now I agree, someone needs to take over so they do not harm themselves or others.

Nick Yoho 8 years, 2 months ago

Lets all step back,and make room for pity2bu 's ego. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

For BrianR:

If you want a great book that reflects the 60s, get Hoffman's Steal This Book. The part in there on long distance codes saved me a ton of money in college.

denak 8 years, 2 months ago

America the Beautiful,

I'm sure people have thought of it but the one fatal flaw is that it is wrong and without legal precedent.

There was no presentment. Presentment deals with a signed negotiable instrument such as a certificate of deposit or a bond or a money order. A ticket is not the same as a money order or a certificate of deposit or bond.

Secondly, reading something that is handed to you does not contractually obligate a person. Of course, the police officer had to read the card. For all he knew, the card could have read: "I am a diplomat. I have diplomatic immunity" or I am deaf. I need an interpreter." Just reading the card does not constitute acceptance of the terms.

There is no contractual dispute because there is no contract.


Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 2 months ago

I'm always fascinated by what issues reach 150 posts.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

If nothing else, this young lady made you all think today, and that's not a bad thing. So many times the issues are so well formed already that all we do is regurgitate the latest talking points. This had no talking points and we had to actually confront the ideas in front of us (to pity2bu, that's not the same as agreeing with everything that's said, but it is recognizing the humanity of the other, something they've failed to do in these later posts, unfortunately). Thinking is good.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

I find it funny that some here are actually trying to discuss legal issues. Because you know whatever I type here is totally true: UCC Section 9-401 and Trilateral Commission Sec. 49. Definition of vehicles from Geneva Convention, Sec 43-201. DSM Manual 4th Edition.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

What about the Law of Salvage? She forgot the Law of Salvage! And Adverse Possession! And Treasure Trove! If we're going to conflate almost every other aspect of criminal, property, and maritime law, let's not forget those!

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

Don't forget the Bilderbergs Goof. Sebelius was in Turkey at a meeting of the Bilderbergs and you know what kind of regs they have. Did you get the Trilateral Commission handbook during your travels?

bytheway 8 years, 2 months ago

Wow, this really makes you think twice about the mentally ill. I feel sorry for that poor baby. Who was she raised by Jehovah's Witnesses? Probably not, since they are a little crazier than that. (Sorry people of the Witness cult, one person on your bible committee had a little bit of Greek and absolutely no bible scholars. Brainwashed (good song by the way)).

Crossfire 8 years, 2 months ago

............Laura West 4 Mayor........... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ................She has my vote.............

Tom Miller 8 years, 2 months ago

...sniff, sniff...I sorta smell a vague essence of "Charlie" here...not the perfume, either; rather, mr. Manson...hmmm.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

Nobody really cares about this foolish criticism.

The intelligent people sift through the distractions to discover the real truth, facts and law in the matter.

Any court of record makes it's decision on three things. Truth. Facts. Law.

Opinions are like...everyone has got one and they all smell like...and they mean nothing to the record of the courts.

Just pay your fines people it's much easier to just pay your fines.

America_the_Beautiful 8 years, 2 months ago

On the other hand, if you would like to know the very information that brought such a newsbreaking matter and put every attorney in lawrence on ear in the courtroom, they have a nationwide network of sovereigns at: and a free online sovereignty study guide at the web site. Plus a plethora of videos, other entertaining media clips and success stories.

Martin_D_15 8 years, 2 months ago

why does Lawrence always attract the freaks? this town is full of weird mudders.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Actually, this may be just a strange case of domestic abuse...... IF the article is correct that her partner is "J.M. Sovereign: Godsent" you will note that her 'title 4 flag' book is authored by some entity with the same name. So, not only has he brainwashed this poor waif, probably using her as a 'vessel' for his biological secretions resulting in child, he has her reduced to pimping on this forum in an attempt to sell his ramblings. . Domestic abuse. yup.

Tychoman 8 years, 2 months ago

I wonder if she's a member of the Flat Earth Society.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

merrill (Anonymous) sayeth: "Sovereign Civilian Police Observation Task Force " = thinkers Some people in Lawrence believe that the LPD police chief needs a Civilian Police Observation Task Force by his side 24/7 complete with audio/video.

Merrill, did I ever mention what a complete idiot and whack job you are?

If so, let me remedy that oversight. Merrill, you are a complete Sovereign Civilian idiot and the LPD should start Police Task Force to Observe what a whack job you are.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Laura should have claimed to be an illegal immigrant; then the officer would have let her go without a ticket.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

If she was on a religious mission, she should have insisted the vessel in question was both her residence and her church and then claimed the right of Sanctuary. That would have been about as valid as the other stuff in her pseudo-legalistic olio.

I hope she fights on. This is the best entertainment we've had in weeks...

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

obviously, the only bar exam these 'people' have passed is the one to be recogniized to practice law in Whoviille! I further contend that not one has actually attended a real law school.
I do remember hearing of some of these wacko flag claims on survivalist radio stations, often on shortwave about perhaps ten years ago. not new to these 'people.'

very sad this little child involved. hope a good home can be found.
"DSM manual" depicts a lack of basic understanding, because DSM stands for: "the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders."

no answer on just how this little pair of Whoville residents heard about their sick friend in lawrence. oh, maybe it was by secret currier and a note written in invisible ink? at least no federal government contact that way.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

from their website: 14 ~ Having Ninja Babies (without the mark of the beast)

If you are serious about giving your very own Child of God the free and sovereign status that is his/her American inheritance and birthright, use this tried and true method.

Consider a home-birth with a midwife and take care of the documentation on your own. Or, if you must have the baby at a hospital, use the birthing plan on the Disk and notice them, ahead of time, that you practice an obscure religion and that you will not be allowing the hospital to be doing any standard procedures on your newborn Child of Zion.

You must inform the hospital's birth registrar as soon as possible, ahead of time is better, in writing, that you do not want your baby's birth to appear in the Public State Record and that she must notify the State of your demand.

Be sure to maintain a perimeter around your baby at all times so they don't try to stab him in the foot or cut half his little pecker off. The Mother, Father or trusted relative should stay with your child as long as he/she is in the hospital. Do not let the social worker and birth registrar convince you to sign any applications for government benefits, certificates or accounts at the hospital. They are only required by law to offer their services of birth and social security registration. It is fraud to create a fiction name on behalf of the parents and you can bust them for this and sue for damages.

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

the best place for this kid is with the parents. you people who cannot , in your shallow little dumbed down brains, understand someone like this are idiots. Idiot ,which is an actual medical term relating to anyone with an IQ of 0-50, is one step above brain-dead. anyone suggesting breaking up a family based on med-western intelect is a swine. a hairy, stinky, pig..... :) if the foo sh*ts, wear it.

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

OK Lawrence bloggers - listen up! I would like to introduce myself. I am Laura's (aka - Nut Job, Retard, Moonbeam, Waif, Freak, Brainwashed, Schizophrenic, Fruit Loop, Crazy Hippie, Delusional, Malnourished, Scrawny, and [my favorite] Idiot Psychotic) mother. I would like to give everyone a little history on my BEAUTIFUL daughter. The girl has been through more in her short life than most of us endure in a lifetime. She is a childhood cancer survivor. As a 13-year-old, she underwent 8 months of chemotherapy for Hodgkin's disease. She went from a carefree teenager to an adult in minutes. She faced her own mortality with such courage. The resulting side effects of her chemo included possible sterility. For those of you who think she is an unfit mother, I take great exception. We were elated when she became pregnant at the age of 18. She went through her pregnancy without putting chemicals into her body. Was vegetarian and ate better than I did during that time. Her weight gain was within normal limits and she gave birth in a birthing center with a midwife present. She has no stretch marks and had to have no stitches. (I bet a lot of the women bloggers can't say that about themselves) She nursed her daughter for two years and my granddaughter is extremely healthy and happy. For the nasty comments about giving her enough time and she will have 8 more kids; Laura also loves this earth and realizes that there are too many people living on this small earth. She has no intentions of bringing additional lives that tax our overused resources. Sorry about that - she's an environmentalist also. As far as the comments about Laura's weight; she has always been thin. Her father is naturally thin, always was and always will be. I'm thankful she got her father's metabolism instead of my thunder thighs. She loves her daughter more than life itself and is a VERY GOOD MOTHER. Laura has always been a free thinker - I believe the operative word here is "THINKER". It is not a crime to have different beliefs from others. If that were true, all of you who have assumed facts, stated their opinions, and insulted my daughter and her lifestyle would find themselves sitting in the Jefferson County Jail.

Because this is running over 3000 characters, I will finish this on the next entry So, stay tuned!

denak 8 years, 2 months ago

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I would be so surprised if she actually showed up on October 1, when the judge announces his verdict.

Somehow, I doubt it.


cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

OK folks - As promised, I'm back. Here's the rest of what I wanted to say.

I have spent a lot of time reading and re-reading this blog in disbelief. The fact is my daughter could be sitting on welfare right now in any of the 50 states. She's not! She is a freelance journalist working [at this time] for a national publishing company. Bet you couldn't have guessed that one, could you? What a shock. The girl actually works for a living. Ever heard of RESEARCH? She does not belong to a cult and is not brainwashed. I believe most of you have missed the whole point!!!!!! There are inconsistencies between Federal and State Laws. There have been for years and they will remain unless enough people take a closer look at our "system". I am quite surprised at how many people are sticking up for our "broken system" we call Government. How many of you think it is the right thing for our troops to be slaughtered everyday in Iraq? How many of you think that it is fine and dandy for the working class to pay more taxes than the upper class because of tax incentives and write-offs? How many of you believe that it is OK for FEMA to send demand letters to recipients of federal funds from Katrina because our Government made a mistake? And do you all think your Social Security is secure? I guess it is also just fine that Americans don't have equal access to healthcare.

Come on Kansas! [I hail from the West Coast, so I guess I'm more liberal than the folks in the South] Not everyone in the United States is the same. That's what makes us all so interesting. Just because you are different doesn't mean you are crazy or psychotic, doesn't mean you are a bad mother, nor does it make you a bad person. Laura is a lovely person with a kind heart. She has high morals and strong convictions. She is intelligent and talented. She is educated and responsible. I am not ashamed of her in any way. She is what most parents hope their children grow up to be like. She just is a little different than most folks but that does not make her bad. I love her and stand behind her.

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

Dena - What makes you think Laura won't show up? $1500 bond was posted in mid-June and she showed up on August 31st. She got to choose her Oct court date and her $1500 bond is still being held by the court.

She wants to be there in Oct - believe me!

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

I find it hard to believe that - how many of you - still don't get it. This is not about denouncing the police or the constitution. It is about inconsistencies in Federal and State laws!!!! They believe in the police they believe in the constitution, they believe in law. It is all about what is actually written in these laws and what court actuall has juridiction over what matters.

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

hey cheryl you notice how none of the big mouths have anyting to say now. Don't waste your time on local , selfish, self-centered scum. Fight for your rights sheeple, or shut up and get out of my way.....

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

Cheryl, do they need any support? as in money? I may be interested in donating.

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER, you are absolutely right. Is is suddenly very calm. Very hard to believe. Come on Kansas - what do you have to say now!

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER - I sent you my personal email address. Contact me if you are serious about your offer.

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

Thank you Americorps. I am still wondering where everyone else went. This blog has been going very strong for awhile now. I wasn't trying to put a stop to the comments, I was just trying to put a few facts in place.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

cherylrising, I really appreciate your posts; regarding where the posters have gone, for perspective, it is mealtime on the Sunday night of Labor Day weekend here in Lawrence.

Another perspective: the vast majority of people who live in Lawrence are government employees, many of whom consider themselves to be very important in government, and many of the rest depend on the government for their daily sustenance, their livelihood, etc.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Cynical, let us not get off topic. In answer, the largest employer in Douglas County is, in fact, the various government units and the social entities government funds. Many local businesses would not survive without the government, i.e., grocery stores, bars, restaurants, architects, builders, lawyers, consultants, even Walmart. The KU students who come here to pay our government to educate them keep this economy rolling. Take government away from Lawrence, and Lawrence is McLouth.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Notice, cynical, that I did not attack you on a personal level. I addressed your argument.

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

DotsLine - Thank you for your views.

I don't hate our Government. I never ranted about the Gov't is out to get us while my daughter was growing up. You couldn't be more wrong about me. I don't make assumptions about your beliefs by reading a few of your words. What I said was well written and intelligent. [The tax issue was not meant to say the rich pay less taxes, they have more tax incentivies and write offs than the average folk and you can't argue that] I may or may not agree with what my daugher is doing but I do believe she have the right to do what she is doing.

Just to set the record straight. ----- I am a Vietnam Era Veteran. I am a government employee. I am college educated. The only thing I did to help develop her "free thinking" [you say that like it is a disease] was to instill in her the confidence to be who and what she wanted. She was not spoiled and did not have things handed to her. We have gone head to head on many issues and still do today. She is her own person and I love her for that. She is following her heart and not hurting anyone by doing so. This traffic incident is what is called a "victimless crime". At least she isn't of the mentality to do things such as setting bombs or burning down buildings that some groups do to make their point.

Your blog entry did not surprise me in the least. The people in this blog seem to have a knack of thinking the very worst in a person they don't even know. Bravo - now you start insulting me.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

cynical, you are fantacizing. I am not who you think I am.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago


You are the ignorant one. According to the Goddard scale (no longer used for reasons of political correctness):

Moron = IQ 51 to 70 Imbecile = IQ 26 to 50 Idiot = IQ 0 to 25

Tony Kisner 8 years, 2 months ago

Geez, from this thread you would think that this girl and her buddy were transporting Elvis in the vessel.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Cynical, The number of employees that have a connection to government (i.e. dependent upon tax dollars), be it city, county, state, university, school district, or social service agency funded by government, far outnumber the employees of purely private businesses. And many of those businesses would not be what they are without clients that are either government, or government employees. That is just what it is.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

once again, from their own words, containing several glaring falsehoods and imaginal relationships as well as plain lies. 5 ~ Subjects of the Crown

The fictional UNITED STATES Corporation still exists on paper as a commercial enterprise with immense debt to foreign bankers. As a matter of fact U.S. Inc. has been a corporation floundering in and out of bankruptcy since 1871 when congress went bankrupt from the civil war. The United States was incorporated to borrow money from English bankers who proposed the offer to control American lawmakers.

How does U.S. Inc secure the loans?

The UNITED STATES corporation now uses your birth certificate, filed as a registered security with the United States Department of Commerce as collateral to secure credit from the world bank; England's private bank, thus making you liable for the national debt. Each 'strawman' birth certificate is considered to be a fictitious person, a second-class citizen, a corporation "Vessel of the United States" that was voluntarily applied for by the parents and created by the Birth Registrar of the State, another corporation "Vessel of the United States". For the purpose of securing the national debt.

This "Vessel of the UNITED STATES", your birth certificate is essentially a business license as well as a warehouse receipt for the registration of your original birth record. Where the original is being stored on your behalf by the UNITED STATES corporation, it is bonded and used as collateral for a loan of $1,000,000 that is kept in your Social Security account.

The UNITED STATES corporation is a bankrupt corporation that is deep in debt to the WORLD BANK (England) and every U.S. citizen(vessel) including each State, county and city is governed by their contracts created under the UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE. And, the good old U.S. of A considers it's vessel-citizens liable for its debt, therefore it loans huge sums of bank draft to States, counties and cities so that they can in turn collect fines and taxes from all of their subjects.

If you claim to be the all caps name on the Birth Certificate and/or Driver's License contract, or if you claim to be a citizen of the UNITED STATES you are understood to be chattel of the commercial state, ultimately a slave to the Crown of England. -Sound familiar?

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Cynical, this is getting tiresome. I would suggest you read the entire paragraph to discern the true meaning of my post. That would, however, assume you possess some reading comprehension skills.

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

newell is smarter than everyone.... geez..... and you are still making my point.......

I am smart, I am smart.. s m r t I am smart.....

areYOUgonnaBEignorantFOREVER 8 years, 2 months ago

hey cheryl, I will check email and get with you. Don't take any crap from any sh8t talking Lawrence Kansas punks....You sheeple are disgusting....

cherylrising 8 years, 2 months ago

DotsLine - I appreciate your last entry and say thank you. It was important to me to let everyone who reads this blog know that Laura is a loving and kind human being and not just a crazy hippie who should have her child taken from her. As I said before, I may or may not agree with everything she is doing, but challenging the system IS a way to have the system changed. That is why they have a court system. Both sides have an opportunity to present their facts and have a decision rendered. I am not asking anyone to change their minds about if Laura is right or wrong. Instead, I am trying to bring about an awareness that these blogs are read by many many people and a lot of the comments were hurtful to me and my family.

I love her and am proud of her for standing up for what she believes in. It does not matter to me if they are the same things I believe in.

cms 8 years, 2 months ago

Say, doesn't she look a bit like "stump chick", the woman that camped for a couple of weeks in the dead tree south of Borders?

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

oh dear..... this thread is still going. And despite Cheryl Risings belief she has run us off with her new-found information, I thought I would check in. I am glad to know that mothers still love and nurture their children, even in Alice-in-Wonderland .

It is bizarre, if not sad, that this mush of legal mumbo-jumbo is now being defended as just "inconsistencies between state and federal laws." Hardly.
. . . I enjoyed whomever made the Mark Drake reference. . . . And on the Godot vs. Cynical brush fire, Cynical was the clear winner. Godot needs to read his/her own words and admit error, instead of trying rationalize. It only amplifies Godot's typical logic and writing style. . . . People new to these forums need to learn this is not a place to publish books. . . . Marion, great link. But frequently, I assume you contribute while wearing one of these.

Haiku_Cuckoo 8 years, 2 months ago

Question: Does she pay taxes to help maintain the roads on which she drives her vessel?

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

So I am chattel of the World Bank (England's private bank) because the US Government is has secured it's debt using my birth certificate? If any of you believe a single word of this, "J.M. Sovereign: Godsent" formally invites you to join, Merrill, Americorps, cherylrising, and Moonbeam to partake in a nice frosty glass of Kool-Aid. Cheers!

By the way Jim Jones and David Koresh called. When "J.M. Sovereign: Godsent" changes his name to "J.M. Sovereign: Jesus Christ, God" they have some property that is just perfect for building a compound in located in Waco, Texas Inc. and and some land in Guyana just perfect for your apostolic socialist paradise while waiting for the Corporate Apocalypse of the Skull and Bones. I bet they would be willing let you have it for a very reasonable price.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

DotsLines: Godot's exact quote (Sept 2, 7:20pm) was: "the vast majority of people who live in Lawrence are government employees" Cynical just asked him to defend the statement, or (impliedly) admit it was overstated.
.. The "top three employers in Douglas County" hardly equals the "vast majority of people." As a self-described "highly educated": person, do you want to give us numbers to defend the original statement? . . Discuss more the issues in the original article, you suggest? You really want to hear more of how inane these "inconsistencies between state and federal law" are? I really don't think so.
. . Marion, keep the eye shaded dude.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

and does "J.M. Sovereign: Godsent" have a band?

jonas 8 years, 2 months ago

That could be because we have a state university here. I'm not an expert, though.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Does "J.M. Sovereign: Godsent" have a band? Yeah a headband and it's tied a bit tight, IMHO. But seriously if this guy changes his name to "Jesus Messiah King: Godsent" I'm calling Janet Reno!

Flap Doodle 8 years, 2 months ago

I haven't had time to read all the posts on this thread. Has anybody mentioned the owl-worshiping secret society in the "grove" that actually runs the country?

Tychoman 8 years, 2 months ago

These two people are idiots. Cheryl, did you even read the article? Your "smart" daughter believes she doesn't need a Driver's License, believes she doesn't have to register her car, and also believes that she doesn't have to have the car up to regulation in terms of safety (i.e. lousy headlights), not to mention she's not to be held under the law. I don't know where she gets that, but she sure sounds like a winner.

Anyone who introduces himself as "Godsent" is immediately suspect and loses most, if not all credibility.

You're either a mother who's overreacting because her daugther was justifiably arrested, or a troll. At times, you appear to be both. Most of your comments have been insulting the other posters on this forum in almost a harassing tone. Lay off. You and AreYougonna are free to drink your koolaid somewhere else.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

oldgoof, prove that there are more people in Lawrence employed by private-for-profit businesses than there are people whose income is derived in some form directly from the government. Include not-for-profit agencies that are funded wholly or substantially by taxpayer dollars in the "government" category.

Keith 8 years, 2 months ago


I believe this is yours, you have to prove it, not hive it off on others. "Another perspective: the vast majority of people who live in Lawrence are government employees, many of whom consider themselves to be very important in government, and many of the rest depend on the government for their daily sustenance, their livelihood, etc."

Until then, we're Waiting for Godot

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

If you challenge it, you must provide the proof.

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

A small sampling of people in Lawrence who depend upon government for support:

First, the obvious: State employees living in Lawrence and commuting to Topeka or KC; Anyone employed by KU; State employees working in Lawrence for SRS or other agencies like Wildlife & Parks, Insurance, etc.,County employees; City employees; school district employees; LMH employees; Haskell employees, KU Endowment, the KU Athletic Corp.....

Not so obvious: DCCCA; Bert Nash; the newest contortion of the Convention and Visitors Bureau; DLA; neighborhood associations, the Lawrence Arts Center, VNA, .......

Now, include people on Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, SSDI, Section 8, people on food stamps, you name it....

Subtract all these from the total working population of Lawrence, and, what have you got?

Take government money out of Lawrence, and there is not much left.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 2 months ago

again, from their own text! supposedly there are 'customs agents' at the hospital! If you were born on the continental landmass of North America, more specifically, one of the fifty States, united, then you have the birthright to an inheritance that no foreign corporation can claim: American civilian Citizenship and the Constitution by which the American sovereigns govern their servants.

You came down the chute, most likely, in a port of entry into this country and were confronted with customs agents before you met your mother. They took full advantage of your mother's vulnerability from the birthing process and convinced her emotional mind that she had to enter into very specifically designed contracts to be in compliance with "the law". Yes, that ambiguous "it's the laaaaaw" that everyone seems to sheepishly agree with. But do these queer folk really know the law or are they just a bunch of cowardly peasants that would rather live their lives by television lies and die by pharmaceutical poison and exhaustion from paying excessive taxes?

Back then you had to be a counterculture drop out living in a retired school bus on commune in the back woods if you wanted to have a truly free American baby. These days it is a lot easier to protect our offspring from the customs agents at the hospitals; thanks to the groundwork that has been done by all of the red-blooded American patriots and Constitutionalists that believe that this country has a heart of gold, and dug through the law books to find it. So here's a good time to give a very special thanks people like David-Wynn:Miller Bob:Hallstrom, Howard:Freeman, the Behold group, Anti-Shyster, and all of the schools and support groups like that believe that this revolution can be won in the courtrooms without bloodshed.

What most people don't realize is that the birth certificates are considered by the governments to be title to the body of the individual whose name is on it, a contract with implied status: State property. The SS# is an account set up to manage money borrowed using the birth certificate as collateral, the implication is that you are liable for the repayment of the debt.

Another way to look at it is as if the Birth Certificate is the equivalent to a business license (an artificial person) which can make no claim for human rights. Why does your baby need a certificate of registration and a debt management account?

Keith 8 years, 2 months ago

Just wait til they find out that the government has signed all those Titles over to the Grey Aliens. They'll be coming soon to claim us! Get your tinfoil hats now!

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Godot's exact quote was: "the vast majority of people who live in Lawrence are government employees"

Goof: I am still looking for numbers from a published source which would prove this conclusion.

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 8 years, 2 months ago

The employment data for Douglas County should be available from the Census. They have occupational data, probably by employer (private/government).

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

innocent until proven guilty. That is the law of the land, unless you live in France or Louisiana.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Governments throughout the ages have not needed legal niceties of Birth Certificates to justify enslaving their populations nor Social Security Numbered debt management accounts to saddle their citizens (often with a willing population of voters who democratically elect representatives who promise them free health care or a chicken in every pot, for instance) to economically bankrupt or ruin a national economy.

Any sufficiently corrupt government that this group presupposes will NOT suddenly say, "Oh Damn, you caught us, good show. Here are the keys to power! Now go drive your vessel across the land you freeborn Sovereign." It is simply a ludicrous day dream significantly lacking in any grounding in reality.

What they WILL say is, "Nope you can't get your free food stamps, Section 8 housing, health care, apartment, a decent job, student loan, or public transportation without a Social Security Number. Oh BTW, don't forget to pay your "fair share" of taxes when you do have income, or we will simply take by force from others what we promised to give you. Oh, and if they run out of money, hey you're screwed because we will just take what little you have."

We don't need the Skull and Bones, Trilatteral Commissions, Halliburton, BushCo, the U.C.C.C., the Masons, or the World Bank to explain our current circumstances nor are they the key to solving our problems. What we need is for the American people to realize the more money we allow the Government to take from us, by promising to take care of us from "cradle to grave", the more helpless we become and the more powerful and corrupt it becomes.

It is not a glamorous nor a sexy solution and it does mean you will have to take care of yourself, but it does mean you get to keep more of what is yours and it is much more likely to result in a country that more closely resembles the American Dream of our founding fathers, and that some of us still believe in.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

Warning: The information contained on this website may shock or disturb you. The stories you are about to see will forever change your life and will affect the way you look at things you had previously taken for granted. What you are about to see is photographic proof of a conspiracy so large and so complicated that the depth to which society is involved, and the complete story behind the facts is still unknown. Remember, the pictures collected here are real and have not been altered or enhanced in any way.

Bill Chapman 8 years, 2 months ago

Much as I hate governmental red tape, big brother-ism, and all that - I also recognize the need to make certain that the idiot behind the wheel of a 1,500+lbs. vehicle knows how to operate it to >some< degree of competency. I would prefer that whatever test is used is somewhat standard across the country as well.

Keith 8 years, 2 months ago

cynical: "So provide facts and figures, otherwise you will be considered a ranting nut case."

Godot (Anonymous) says: "innocent until proven guilty. That is the law of the land, unless you live in France or Louisiana."

I'm afraid it's no longer either/or on cynical's statement regarding Godot.

space_rabbit_kerosene 8 years, 2 months ago

Marion, Check it out, perhaps you missed schizotypal personality disorder.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

Limiting the power of government and preserving individual liberties are noble goals. Careening around the public highways in unsafe vehicles and obsessing over the interior decoration of the courtroom are not effective means to the end. Nobody is buying this anarchist mumbo-jumbo.

If you really want to do something to change the system, run for public office, start a new political party (we certainly need one), work for existing candidates (someone will surely chime in about now for Ron Paul), or do something else constructive that has some small chance of actually having some real world effect.

I'm not a mental health professional, but if someone were looking for a DSM-IV diagnosis, I would suggest starting with: Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Here are some of the traits:

  • has a grandiose sense of self-importance
  • is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance
  • believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can't be understood by normal people
  • strong sense of entitlement
  • takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

VX3 8 years, 2 months ago

But until change is brought about in the appropriate manner, it is not a right to just >>ignore the rules.

All seemingly appropriate methods have and continue to fail. Do you actually think those at the top care about "rule of law"? They pick and choose when to use it to their advantage and when to forsake it and/or influence the decisions of the courts. Where are all of the subpoenas and hearings into all of the government waste and corruption, when it comes to no bid contracts to supply our troops and build up infrastructure in countries we so successfully helped to destroy first? This is not about picking beef with those in higher socioeconomic strata just because they have worked things to their advantage, but believe it or not there are some in that strata who do actively campaign to diminish our rights as once sovereign Americans. So take notice of Mr. Eisenhowers following comments on the futility of war. I think he probably knows a thing or two about it.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." -Dwight Eisenhower-

Stand up, put down the remote, and pick up your rights....bless all ye who continue the fight for our innate rights....they are under attack.

All of you who go right to accusing people of psychotic disorders are so sad and pathetic, the propagandists and pundits would be so happy at how dramatically their plans to alienate and divide have worked on unsuspecting Americans.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always." the naysayers, go back to sleep and remember don't bite the hand that feeds. As for me, I will continue to stay positive about the necessity for change and its good chances for success. I wish you would join us.

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

VX3, welcome. "I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center." Dwight D. Eisenhower. Although I have trouble deciding which gutter you are in, I am fairly certain those are rocks you are lobbing. And here is another helpful household hint for wanabe revolutionaries. Calling the masses sheep and dogs and implying they are lazy isn't remaining "positive" nor is it likely to inspire them to put down the remote and join you. Especially when they have no idea who "us" is. Your arrogance borders on messianic narcissism.

But putting that aside, and understanding that you are dissatisfied with the current situation (join the crowd) what exactly is your strategy for change and change to what exactly? If your strategy is to ignore basic traffic laws like stopping for red lights and claiming that placing a lien on your Birth Certificate is a way of avoiding debts, well I have to say that leaves a lot to be desired. And you are going to replace representative democracy with what utopia exactly? Impose your own trademarked brand of totalitarianism no doubt. As you appear to little patience for those that disagree with you, will you be giving out no bid contracts to your friends to build the new gulags and reeducation centers?

However, I can understand your despair, as it appears to be your only rational thought or feeling remotely based on reality. Everything else is little more than adolescent angst compounded with a mishmash of misunderstandings of history, economics, and law. J.M. Sovereign: Godsent is at best a conman and a fraud and I suspect a coward who will sell out Laura on October 1. She is going to be convicted of four crimes and will likely pay the price for his ignorance, while he will be free to continue to find weak minded sheep he can lead to their slaughter.

ltownsgg 8 years, 2 months ago

I know a lot of the state troopers in the area and they are really nice people. This lady seems out there, a lot. I feel sorry that while something else could have been going on the state trooper was stuck dealing with this fool. I can't even explain how stupid this is, yet so funny.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Come on, we need to take your guns away from you? If you can't calculate any better than that, we should. One-third of the jobs? Not even close. Go back to your page and recalculate. Hardly "the vast majority" or even "majority" and hence not even close to being "essentially correct."

You should be embarrassed.

Haiku_Cuckoo 8 years, 2 months ago

How many of you believe that it is OK for FEMA to send demand letters to recipients of federal funds from Katrina because our Government made a mistake?


I do. By keeping funds that don't belong to them those recipients are stealing aid from other Katrina victims and taxpayers. The same goes for the victims who spent their aid money on guns, p0rn and sex change operations. Why on earth would you think it's okay to keep money that doesn't belong to you? Let's turn the tables and ask it this way: "Would it be okay for the US government to keep all your tax money each year rather than issuing a refund when it is applicable?" Does your daughter pay taxes or is she stealing from those of us whose dollars maintain the roads on which she drives?

acg 8 years, 2 months ago

I think they should leave the flaky chick alone and let her go about her way. Who is she hurting, really? Do we really care if she doesn't have a license? I surely don't. Is it going to affect my daily life if she's left alone? If she's arrested? If she's ticketed and charged a ton of money she doesn't have and won't pay for a long list of infractions she could care less about? No to all of that. It takes all kinds to make up this world, right? I mean, if this chicky weren't around to be dingy, who on earth would ya'll make fun of for being a bit outside of the norm?

Haiku_Cuckoo 8 years, 2 months ago

Do we really care if she doesn't have a license? I surely don't.

You don't care if she's qualified to drive a car?


I suppose we should let toddlers, drunks and blind people climb behind the wheel too. Considering that a 3,000 lb car is easily capable of killing people, I agree with the law that requires drivers to pass an exam in order to prove that they are capable of operating a vehicle safely.

Tom Miller 8 years, 2 months ago

I must say, this has been/is one of the most INTERESTING dialogues I've seen/read/been a part of in one HECK of a long time...I truly enjoy discourse of this nature, and generally get bored pretty darn quick, but d_amn, this is an interesting one! Most of the points made herein have varying degrees of accuracy and intellect, with a very few nutjobs in the mix, but isn't that what makes a life interesting? Rave on, folks! Probably some of the most interesting exchanges of perspectives on the freedoms we enjoy in this country that I've heard in YEARS! Thanks to the LJW for providing the mental fodder and the forum to air these differences! Good work, all..some more than others. What a wonderful country this IS that we have the opportunity to express these differences, without fear of retribution by the so-called thought police...for the time being, anyway...lest we get just a little bit TOO "politically correct", god forbid...

acg 8 years, 2 months ago

Well Haiku, you can spend YOUR life worrying about that and I'll spend MY life with the realization that having a license doesn't mean crap. How well do you trust the drivers of vehicles that were given an open book test?

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Yup. DotsLines must be correct. All those University (read Government) employees probably have a bias against Ms. West, and the views she espouses as documented in her foundational reference manual: "Title 4 Flag Says You're Schwag: Your simple guide to sovereignty" Yup, biased because of their checks. Yep. That's it. .. Have you noticed the multiple posts pointing to the source of where to purchase this document that someone was posting here have been removed by the LJW? Or maybe some of those biased Government employees are trying to censor our information! . . At least your arithmetic is correct. And you didn't try to claim that 14% (or even 20%) is the same thing as "the vast majority." Godot overstates all the time, but the statements usually are not so objectively measurable, so when he says something so stupid which Is easily quantifiable, I will point it out. A quick "I was wrong" would have ended the posts right there.

I think Sigmund expressed it best when he posted: ". . .Everything else is little more than adolescent angst compounded with a mishmash of misunderstandings of history, economics, and law. J.M. Sovereign: Godsent is at best a con man and a fraud and I suspect a coward who will sell out Laura on October 1. She is going to be convicted of four crimes and will likely pay the price for his ignorance, while he will be free to continue to find weak minded sheep he can lead to their slaughter."

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Marion. Nice try, but no wash. I agree with your methodology up to the inclusion of health care & social services. That category is almost exclusively health care. And health care is quite decidedly non-governmental in this country.
. . And I don't think 25% or 33%....are either close to "vast majority," which..I would contend would be 70% at the very least So by my are at least 45% in error (25% vs 70%) . If you sold gun parts that way you would be in prison. Or dead. But who knows, maybe you count your sales tax collections using legal arguments contained in the book sold by Laura's friend. . Now give us your permits. :)

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Marion, Godot:

  Table DP-1. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics: 2000  Douglas Co. Kansas

Private wage and salary workers 70.6 % Gov't workers 23.4 Self-employed worker 5.8 Unpaid family worker .2 source:

70.6 plus 5.8 adds to 76.4 on my Big Chief tablet, and I would describe this number as being "vast majority"

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Dotlines: All of the health professionals I deal with, and there are too many of these, are not hospital or government employees. I knew I was opening a door on the health category, that is why I looked up and posted the definitive Census numbers above. See my post above.

And thanks for your dissertation about biases. I totally understand Godot's point (and yours). And I even already knew that Govt is a major employer in every city and county. (oh horror!) But the size, and implied impact, of Govt employment in this community is oft-cited and oft-exaggerated on these boards in a variety of topics (taxes too high, govt too big, no need for school funding, no need for library, no need for X, etc). And Godot's statement was .....just plain wrong, and nobody (except Marion) even tried to source it. And even Marion, God bless his soul, while equivocating for Godot said: "Godot is essentially correct in the assertion regarding the number of folks in Lawrence who are government employees." I say bulls***.

Put aside the dispute on numbers, I reject any notion that this bias has any real impact on peoples reaction to Ms Laura's beliefs and views. People recognize "weird" when they see it. It is the reason this story even made it to a news article. And I am glad the young lady is healthy, not mentally ill, and has a loving family. But the beliefs in the book which is her primary reference, are at the very minimum, bizarre. And they can not be explained away as "discrepancies between state and federal laws."

This story is nothing but entertainment as in "News of the Weird" anyway. Peoples reaction to it are posted above. I don't take it for anything more serious than that.

But your posts drip with so much ....emotion, which affords me an opinion for the quality of training in mental health which you have received.

I look forward to seeing your posts in the future, and especially seeing how aligned your views are with some others. (not Marion, he is just a good natured muck-raiser)

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Dotlines: just in case you missed these:

Table DP-1. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics: 2000 Douglas Co. Kansas

Private wage and salary workers 70.6 % Gov't workers 23.4 Self-employed worker 5.8 Unpaid family worker .2



Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

the census does not consider those employed by not-for-profit agencies that are funded by government to be government workers. I believe the school district, DLA, the Chamber, the hospital, Bert Nash, DCCCS, Cottonwood, VNA, the Arts Centsers, and others would be considered private wage and salary workers, when, in fact, these "private" agencies are largely funded by government. I doubt it will consider those who work for the not-for-profit research businesses that depend entirely on government grants to be government employees. I also wonder if the census considers KU employees to be "government," since KU cannot directly tax and cannot create or enforce laws.

The census also does not include non-workers supported by government in those numbers: those living on Social Security, welfare, food stamps, Section 8, etc.

The census numbers are useless when attempting to answer the question of how many people in Lawrence are dependent upon government for their livelihood.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Godot, your original statement was just dead wrong, outlandishly wrong, provably wrong, and even then you can't admit it. It is really funny.

And now you obfuscate your wrongness by confusing the different data types of: employer, source of income, income support programs, housing support programs, supplemental retirement and 'who can tax.' (huh?). And there would be no difference between your conclusion for Lawrence and every other city and county in the country, because Lawrence's numbers are not so much of a statistical outlier, even with KU. It never ends with you. Go do some research or stop wasting electrons.

When I see your posts, I do consider the source.

Gnomer 8 years, 2 months ago

Do we really care if she doesn't have a license? I surely don't.

Yes, at least I do... For one example why I feel this way, read this small snippet from one of their Internet posts entitled "How to protect yourself from dumb cops"...

Olympia Police Dept. Agent S. Nutter. 2668

On 03/16/07 at 1816 hrs., I responded to accident which ocurred on Harrison Ave. NW., and Kenyon St. Upon arrival , I contacted Hong-Van Wamsley. Wamsley explained that she was stopped on Harrison Ave., facing Eastbound n the inside lane. She said that she was stopped for a pedestrian who was crossing the street walking northbound across Harrison Ave., in a well marked cross walk. Wamsley said that she was hit from behind by CA license 4CPW626.

I contacted the driver, later identified as Sovereign Citizen Godsent, of the vehicle that rear ended Wamsley. Godsent said that he has never had a driver's license nor does he have a social security card. He said that he is a Sovereign Citizen therefore is not required to have driver's license. He claimed that the US constitution allows him the right to travel and therefore, he may drive a motor vehicle without a license.

I asked Godsent for his proof of insurance and he said that he didn't have either of the requested documents.

More located here on the archived blogs:

Godot 8 years, 2 months ago

Add it up, subtract it out, multiply it, divide it however you wish. The fact is that the majority of people in Lawrence depend on government for their subsistence, so they will advocate and vote for more money for government.

oldgoof 8 years, 2 months ago

Goof thinks that DotsLines should restart her meds.

Tom McCune 8 years, 2 months ago

The "flag fringe" defense didn't work on "Law and Order" and it won't work for the lunatic fringe either!

Yabut 8 years, 2 months ago

I would venture to guess that those who are so vehemently defending West probably know her IRL. Check out the date the posters registered. Coincidence? I think not.

Yabut 8 years, 2 months ago

For clarification, I didn't mean those who have already revealed this (mom Cheryl).

Tealady54 8 years, 2 months ago

Hey Lawrence- You're all a bunch of HAYSEEDS!!!! Where is you sense of adventure???? Did she hurt any of you? She's probably the most excitement you've had in a coonsage, right.

acg 8 years, 2 months ago

cynical your name says it all. You feel sorry for her children? Why? She's taken herself off of the "tit", so to speak. Her kids will probably be raised not knowing the pressures of materialism from their peers, laziness of tv, video games and the internet. Her children will most likely be raised with a healthier diet and lifestyle, as hippies generally prepare healthier foods, don't smoke (ciggies anyway haha) and walk and bike as much as possible. So, you feel sorry for her kids, who will probably be healthy, happy, kind to each other and their neighbors and mellow in attitude? Wow, I feel sorry for you.

Ceallach 8 years, 2 months ago

"Fairchild wanted to make a decision on the case next week, but West wasn't available then."

Almost choked on my coffee when I read that!! West wasn't available then, hahahahaha. Why would anyone think that West will recognize the court's authority to require her return at a later date? Chances are she won't even appear for the verdict. (Can't give the invaders an opportunity to implant an identification chip.)

Tom Miller 8 years, 2 months ago goo'ness...can't believe this "thread" is STILL "unraveling"...ohmy...

Sigmund 8 years, 2 months ago

My my, how times flies. There is a chill in the air and October 1 is just around the corner. What are the odds these fruitcakes will show for verdict (guilty as charged, with an amended charges of 'too stupid to be in public in the first degree' and a 'aggravated dispensing KoolAid without a license' thrown in for good measure). Anyone know when Fairchild will handle this in his morning or afternoon docket?

seekerljw 8 years ago

So, what happened in court Ladies and Gents?

brotherBones 7 years ago

taken from (mr. Sovereign Godsent's Site){4 ~ UNITED STATES Inc.“Extra, Extra, Read all about it! United States Incorporates!”“Congress copyrights Constitution for the thirteen united States of America and renames it the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. New corporate government for the District of Columbia, commands all it's vessels to swear oath to new copyrighted version.” -District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871:Forty-First Congress of the United States, Session III, Chapter 61 and 62, sec. 34 enacted February 21, 1871UNITED STATES CODE, Title 28, 3002(15)(A) – Re-iterates"The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a State" (NY re: Merriam 36 N.E. 505 1441 S. 0.1973, 14 L. Ed. 287). Volume 20: Corpus Juris Sec. 1785The United States of America is a corporation endowed with the capacity to sue and be sued, to convey and receive property.1 Marsh. Dec. 177, 181....but it is proper to observe that no suit can be brought against the United States without authority of law. Bouvier's Law , 5 definition of United States"It is an established fact that the United States Federal Government has been dissolved by the Emergency Banking Act, March 9, 1933, 48 stat. 1, Public Law 89-719; declared by President Roosevelt, being bankrupt and insolvent, H.J.R. 192, 73rd Congress m session June 5, 1933 - Joint Resolution To Suspend The Gold Standard and Abrogate The Gold Clause dissolved the Sovereign Authority of the United States and the official capacities of all United States Governmental Offices, Officers, and Departments and is further evidence that the United States Federal Government exists today in name only.”United States Congressional Record, March 17, 1993 Vol. 33The U.S. Government declared bankruptcy in 1933 in Roosevelt's executive orders 6073, 6102, 6111, AND 6260 and lost it's sovereignty.This was confirmed in Perry v. US (1935) 294 U.S. 330-381, 79LEd 912, as well as 31 U.S.C. 5112 and 5119 and 12 U.S.C. 95a.Title 28, 3002(15)(3): States that all departments of the UNITED STATES CORPORATION are part of the corporation.}.....That's whats wrong with America, full of Dumb Asses who Think they know it all. I meet Mrs. West & She knows more at 25 than EVERYONE on this site. & her (now 3 year old) is very smart for her age & this was the words out of a Maryland Judges mouth during her returning her child to Mrs West after DHS tried to take the Child. It was proved that the STATE had no jurisdiction over a sovereign child.WAKE UP AMERICA & GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS! Your living in a lie!www . SEDM . netwww . MySpace . com / BDnBones420

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