Baltimore — Shirley Phelps-Roper told jurors that she was an angel assigned to speak the truth to earth dwellers, that God hates their evil.
On the witness stand in a U.S. District Courtroom in downtown Baltimore, she explained last week that's why she picketed the funeral of Matthew Snyder, a 20-year-old Marine from Westminster, Md., who was killed in Iraq in March 2006.
After 33,000 protests over the last 17 years, the Snyder case is thought to be the first individual lawsuit brought against the Phelps family of Topeka, Kan., and their Westboro Baptist Church. The family is seeking unspecified monetary damages in the case for invasion of privacy and intent to inflect emotional distress.
Closing arguments are expected today in the case, which will test the limits of free speech.
Phelps-Roper testified the family pickets military funerals because "we are supposed to be timely and topical." Noting that Fred Phelps Sr. and his offspring are used to being mocked and scorned, she explained Thursday that the same thing happened to Noah, who preached of a forthcoming flood for 120 years.
"The pattern is always the same," she said. Asked whether she had any regrets about her actions outside the St. John Catholic Church, she replied: "If I was sorry, I would not have done it." She said God had killed Snyder so his servants could preach how the young Marine had gone to fight for "the United States of Sodom, a filthy country," which has institutionalized sodomy and represents all things evil and wicked.
Albert Snyder told jurors last week that he regarded many of the signs at his son's funerals as personal attacks and that seeing them made him sick to his stomach, according to The Associated Press. He referred to the protesters as "a bunch of clowns" and said his family should have had the right to bury Matthew with dignity.
It is a busy and rewarding time for the notorious Phelps family, which is reveling in the spotlight of the trial. On Saturday alone, members the Kansas family demonstrated at the funerals of three soldiers in Ottawa, Kan., Lone Pine, Calif., and Belchertown, Mass. They also protested that day at the funeral of a Maryland state trooper. Tuesday, they plan to protest at a funeral of a slain staff sergeant in Plano, Texas.
As Phelps-Roper was testifying Thursday, one of her 12 siblings was continuing the family business outside the gate of the U.S. Naval Academy in nearby Annapolis.
When Jonathan Phelps was asked how an unfavorable jury verdict would affect the family's activities, he said, "Let me think about that. It takes me about a nanosecond. Zilcho.
"Let me put it to you this way: How much money you think it takes to pay for an ad that says 'God hates fags' in the Baltimore Sun?" he asked. "I've never bought any advertising, but it takes big bucks from what I've heard."
But the free news coverage of the case spreads their word that America's doomed.
"Thank God for dead soldiers," he said, referring to one of the family's favorite signs. "I mean, I can't get to as many locations that one of those stories is going to cover for me. So it's a beautiful preaching opportunity. Wonderful."
That particular sign came up when Snyder testified that he thought about it daily. "I see that sign when I lay in bed."
Maj. Terry Callis, a military chaplain who provides grief counseling, testified that Albert Snyder was traumatized by the death of his son and that the trauma was exacerbated by the protest. He said Albert Snyder saw the coverage of the protest on television and that "the events seemed to overshadow the funeral," making it hard for him to complete the grieving process.
Fred Phelps also testified and was questioned by the judge about the graphic nature of some of the signs, which could be seen by children. He said it was irrelevant.
The defense attorney noted that the protest was 1,000 feet away from the church because Maryland, like many states, has tried to deal with the Phelpses with legal restrictions. Judge Richard Bennett told the jury that limits to free speech exist and that some actions can be deemed so offensive and outrageous that they do not qualify for protection.
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ksdivakat (anonymous) says…
"If I was sorry, I would not have done it." She said God had killed Snyder so his servants could preach how the young Marine had gone to fight for "the United States of Sodom, a filthy country," which has institutionalized sodomy and represents all things evil and wicked.
Cant these people be put on a boat and made to leave the United States since they hate it so much?? Fred Phelps is a closet gay himself, which is why hes so over the top with this............I say, lets take em all out to a island surrounded by shark infested waters and leave them there to fin for themselves, this family is obnoxious and they arent converting anyone, so whats the point?? If nobody agrees with what you are doing and you cant convince anyone to side up with you, then why? That church is made up of only the Phelps family, and the phelps family only, there are no sane noraml people who go there. I think that Fred married his sister and they had all these kids and thats why they are so mental.
zzgoeb (anonymous) says…
What sad,evil, pathetic little people the Phelpes are! God does not hate...if they are Christians, then they should emulate Jesus. If America is "filthy", why are they still here? Notice none of there family is serving in the military?
I hope their vengeful God sees fit to deliver judgement on them...the sooner the better!
coolmarv (anonymous) says…
If someone dropped a bomb on the Phelpes' it would be okay as long as God told them to. Even the Phelpes could not argue that. They may not like it but since God told someone to 'drop the bomb' they would understand. I agree, exile the whole lot of anti-Americans. I'm sure they can find another country to hate. Maybe France? Believe me, they will get their just rewards.
Gotta go. I think God is calling.
coolmarv (anonymous) says…
Oh, it wasn't my calling. God said to forgive them their tresspasses. I'll try.
overplayedhistory (anonymous) says…
The Phelpes say we are evil for not bashing gays with them.
You say the Phelpes are evil.
Muslims believe we are evil with low cut tops and mini skirts.
Real crime is legal. That is evil.
Cops are taught how to violate the bill of rights and get away with it. (evil)
Evangelicals are helping the bushies destroy the middle class even though there own futures are at stake, because abortion is legal and evil.
We are a nation of fear. Fear breeds evil.
Buddhism doesn't believe in evil and I can see why. Buddhist are not much fun though.
Can we do away with the word evil?
Gross action is often justified as action against evil.
Or can we just get a new ef-ing book?
A book that has a new modern criteria for what is EVIL.
Or a book that has a good rational set of ethics and decency.
I am so fed up I am ready to buy stock in phiezer and get a scrip for zoloft.
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Of course they are reveling in the publicity. Ignore them.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
overplayedhistory - welcome to the wonderful world of relativism.
As for the Phelps' - they're poster children for the dark side of the 1st Amendment. There will be a day when they will say 'Lord, lord - did we not do all these things in your name?', and the most chilling reply ever uttered will be given to them.
Dwight_Schrute (anonymous) says…
coolmarv (Anonymous) says:
If someone dropped a bomb on the Phelpes' it would be okay as long as God told them to. Even the Phelpes could not argue that. They may not like it but since God told someone to 'drop the bomb' they would understand. I agree, exile the whole lot of anti-Americans. I'm sure they can find another country to hate. Maybe France? Believe me, they will get their just rewards.
Gotta go. I think God is calling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, whaddya know coolmarv...someone beat you to the idea...
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/10300...
coolmarv (anonymous) says…
You know, right before I posted that I said to myself "gee, I hope nobody really does that after I post this". I don't really wish harm on anyone. It would be nice if they would go away though.
SloMo (anonymous) says…
They're not Christians and I don't think they even profess to be. They are strictly old testament. Leviticans, maybe.
123smilie (anonymous) says…
once, i saw them on a street corner with signs that said things like, thank god for 9/11.
they make me sick.
ksdivakat (anonymous) says…
75x55 says "There will be a day when they will say 'Lord, lord - did we not do all these things in your name?', and the most chilling reply ever uttered will be given to them."
Dang....enough said, theres nothing more to say to that, you hit the nail on the head!
laughingtokeepfromcrying (anonymous) says…
I went to the Lied to see "The Frog Princess" (a children's show.) and I had to walk around the Phelps guantlet; but when I went to basketball games (I can't afford basketball now, but back when I'd try to catch the odd game at the Fieldhouse...), no Phelpses. I went to see The Five Blind Boys of Alabama (old, blind, Black men singing Gospel music! What does your church have against Black men singing Gospel?) at the Lied, and there were the Phelpses; but never at the Stadium for home football games. It seems to me the Phelps clan fears the Athletic Dept, but for events at the Lied Center, you/we just try to ignore them. We're so civil, so tolerant. A couple times I've talked myself out of going to things because the parking would be awful, maybe the price of the ticket would be a strain, and I didn't want to deal with the Phelpes.
I'm just saying...
123smilie (anonymous) says…
hey, didn't fred phelps come to topeka in the first place because of brown vs board of education to support integration, then jumped right to protesting against gay people? (sry if i'm wrong, my social studies teacher told me that a few years ago)
agtprovocateuse (anonymous) says…
ThatGirl:
I'm with you - this case makes for strange bedfellows. I'm queer, and yet I *still* find myself coming down on the side of free speech here. What an internal dilemma!
janeyb (anonymous) says…
The Phelps appear to be rejoicing a little too much in regard to the publicity. They have freedom of speech, but does that right allow them to inflict mental and emotional damage to others?Politicians, actors etc. put themselves out there for a certain amount of ridicule, but Mr. Snyder is a private man grieving the loss of his son. If the court finds in favor of Mr. Snyder, the Phelps may appeal and win down the road, but this opens the door for individuals all over the country to sue them. This could really mushroom and they may spend so much time testifying and appealing, there will be no time for the family business. The article says it is a busy and rewarding time for the Phelps. The Phelps are trying to hard to convince us of this. I think they are worried.
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
overplayedhistory writes:
"Buddhism doesn't believe in evil and I can see why. Buddhist are not much fun though."
__________________________________________________
On the contrary, Buddhists very, very much believe in the concept of evil.
The difference is, there's no "scapegoat" like Satan, Beelzebub, etc. Closest thing to that is Mara, The Tempter. Mara doesn't so much take you by the hand and lead you down the Highway to Hell, as is common in some Christian sects (especially Roman Catholicism); rather, Mara clouds your vision, and you slip into a mundane existence where things that are really important become trivial, and vice versa.
In Christianity, evil is rooted in another being; in Buddhism, evil (and good) is rooted in the individual, especially those whose eyes and mind have yet to be open.
Another scapegoat, created and marketed by those "in power?" The bogeyman of "moral relativism." These jokers are generally relativists themselves--they just won't admit to it.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
http://www.americanplan.org
kneejerkreaction (anonymous) says…
The Phelpes are backwards, white trash and by living here they do nothing for the already maligned image of Kansas. It would be nice if the media would all agree to just ignore them.
They keep messing around with people who are going through deep grieving and they may get more than a lawsuit headed their way.
It would be great if the father wins the lawsuit and bankrupts the clan. Then they couldn't afford tickets to fly around the country harassing people.
Dwight_Schrute (anonymous) says…
BINGO - janeyb
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
As to the topic at hand: janeyb, that's a good assessment. I think the most important thing to remember about all this is that the Westboro Bigot Childmolestors have successfully batted away 99% of all the criminal charges that have been brought against them. They've bullied and blustered their way through one courtroom after another, threatened and cajoled hundreds of police chiefs, mayors, sheriffs and the like. They've used and abused the First Amendment with all the same reverence and respect that one has for a roll of toilet paper the morning after a big plate of bad Mexican food.
But this is the first time, to my knowledge, that they've ever faced a civil suit. A suit that doesn't challenge their rights, but "merely" demands they take responsibility for their actions, which infringed upon the rights of others.
My question, for somebody who might have a bit of legal knowledge: If Snyder wins, what are the chances that any money will ever come his way? How is such a decision enforced against the losing party? Will wages and paychecks be garnished? Will non-essential property be seized and sold? How does all that work, if it even works at all?
--Ag
ontheotherhand (anonymous) says…
123, actually, the clan used to be big in the anti-abortion area but the field got too crowded and they weren't being noticed. You can read a lot about the Phelps' clan by reading "Addicted to Hate," which you can easily find online by Googling the title.
IMO, the pathetic Phelps have every right to say out loud (and put on posters) what a lot of people think in their hearts. Sorry, but I see them as less of a threat than someone like Pat Roberston, who has repeatedly blamed gays and lesbians for about 90% of the natural disasters that occur in America (floods, tornadoes, you name it...). His best line: "The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
Phelps and clan will continue to do this as long as it is allowed, which is until sexual orientation is added as a protected class along with race, religion, and others. Remember, no one was up in arms about the Phelps clan when they were merely picketing the funerals of people who had died from AIDS. If you think that was ok, then maybe you should check your hearts and your logic?
kmat (anonymous) says…
Ontheotherhand - You are incorrect about the funerals of people who died from aids and the Phelps harassing their families. Most people were up in arms back then too because anyone with a brain knows that you leave a grieving family alone, even if you don't agree with their lifestyle. A little googling proves my point. And I am one of many that was almost arrested trying to block him years ago from anti-gay picketing. Unfortunately, I've come close to being arrested more than once for trying to take Fred on. Heck, someone tried to run him over with their truck about 10 years ago in Topeka. Too bad they missed.
Now, they're in the spot light more because they are picketing more than ever and you of course are going to get attn when you picket fallen soldiers funerals during a time of war.
Don't lecture others about checking our hearts and logic. You should check your facts first. Maybe just you didn't know the public outcry because you didn't pay that much attn. They've gotten national attn for a lot longer than they've been picketing soldiers funerals.
The best thing anyone can do is to attend the areas where they will be picketing and assist the many groups that show up to try to block them from view of the families. It's really simple because they tell everyone where they'll be protesting.
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
ontheotherhand, your last paragraph is kind of a... "deflation." I agree with you that:
"Phelps and clan will continue to do this as long as it is allowed, which is until sexual orientation is added as a protected class along with race, religion, and others."
... but the process slows every time society has to sit through, yet again, this lecture:
"Remember, no one was up in arms about the Phelps clan when they were merely picketing the funerals of people who had died from AIDS. If you think that was ok, then maybe you should check your hearts and your logic?"
Hey, a lot of us made mistakes in the past. Maybe a lot of people should've been more sensitive to the plight of "WBC victims" 10, 15 years ago. But there's only so many times you can whap our bottoms with a rolled-up newspaper and rub our collective nose in the same pile of s**t.
The hand is now trying to *feed you*... you can stop snapping and biting. :)
--Ag
ksdivakat (anonymous) says…
tweakin topekan...interesting name, seems the street slang for a "tweeker" is a crack head, so therefore, your comments have no baring on these bloggers. I actually believe YOU are one of the inbred phelps, hiding, once again behind a computer.
I remember last year when a Tonganoxie solider died and they were picketing his funeral and the bikers came out in droves and reeved up their bikes to drowned them out, I wish the bikers could do that all the time.
Again my point is, if they hate this country so much......lets send em to afghanistan and let them hunt down bin laden, I bet fred and old man bin laden have alot in common!!!
badger (anonymous) says…
Tweakin, don't assume you're the only person on this blog who resents the paradigm shift. There's a lot of folks supported the picketing of Mathew Shepard's funeral who are up in arms about the picketing of soldier funerals. Their hypocrisy about the relative worth of one human being's dignity over another's will eventually dawn on them, but all they can do at this point is regret the double standard. They can't go back in time and apply their newfound understanding of how it feels when someone who means a lot to you is treated that way to their previous dismissal of the Phelps' victims as 'just gays'. So I challenge them on why one person's funeral is more worthy of respect than another's, and hope they think it out for themselves, but the anger's wasted.
Someday, I think the Phelpses will have to face their God. And as they clamor for His approval, I think they'll be met with the resounding silence of a turned back. The only manner in which I feel the Phelpses actually reflect on Christianity is in my frustration with the failure of mainstream Christians to denounce them, loudly, from the rooftops.
The government shouldn't silence them; the First Amendment protects their hateful speech. That doesn't mean they can't be drowned out by people who prefer to preach and advocate love, and silenced by the refusal to give them a media or social podium from which to speak. The First Amendment protects their speech, but it also protects my right to say they're vicious and divisive hatemongers, who don't deserve the media and social attention they get. They deserve the obscurity they'll eventually languish in.
As to what they deserve after that, I figure they can sort that out with the one whose name they say they're acting in. I imagine they'll face better justice than I could possibly devise.
SkepticKnitter (anonymous) says…
What have you learned from your experiences "Fighting Fred" Tweakin? Attacking a person who objects to Phelps now, just because they weren't there for you and your community 10 years ago, makes no sense.
ontheotherhand (anonymous) says…
Ag, I'm not biting--I know there are people out there helping. :) And thanks for your comments. Also, kmat, you are just going to have to trust me when I say that I know what I am talking about with respect to public outcry over Phelps picketing AIDS/gay funerals vs soldiers. Heck, I even remember when his clan tried to picket Randy Shilts' funeral in '94 (LONG before most people were paying attn) and the crowd saw him coming and pelted the clan with eggs! That was his shortest time at a picket (15 secs out of the van--he never made it near the gravesite). I also spent many times being part of a people wall that blocked angry people from getting near Phelps and starting a fight because we knew that the Phelps had cameras and were ready to take anyone who hit them to court (glad you didn't get arrested, btw!).
At any rate, I am talking about *in proportion* to public and even legislative outcry with respect to little being done then and a lot being done now. Yes, there are many who hate what Phelps does no matter who he pickets. There are probably more who think one is ok and one isn't. There are still others who wish Phelps would go away--not because he shouldn't bash gays--but because he is so loud and onoxious about it (you know, why can't he be homophobic a little more quielty?). To those people, I suggest a heart check.
ontheotherhand (anonymous) says…
Tweaken says . . .Myself and many of my friends where getting attacked, literally, by those same people who are now offended by Phelps.
I agree with you, Tweak. This is probably why I hope Phelps does not get shut down. I think it's important for people to be allowed to practice their 1st Amend rights because it helps me to know just what kind of hatred still exists (and isn't yet protected) out there. This is also why I read these posts, so I can see how people think (for every one post, there are probably hundreds more who think the same way).
Personally, I really don't see Phelps' crap as any more hurtful or hateful than Jerry Falwell, who said "Someone must not be afraid to say, 'moral perversion is wrong.' If we do not act now, homosexuals will 'own' America!...If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will leterally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way...and our nation will pay a terrible price!" (end quote) Talk about inciting a riot! I don't know why no one went to court to protest that--except that Falwell's hateful speech must have been a little more acceptable. Sheesh!
Tweak, I think you and Ag really ARE on the same side. I think he was taking offense to the fact that I stated in an earlier post that no one was fighting against Phelps when he was only picketing gay funerals. My reply to him (and kmat) was that he is right in that people were helping, but my feeling is that it was not in proportion to the numbers who are rallying against Phelps now.
mom_of_three (anonymous) says…
I have heard that the Clan was at the Wichita funeral of the Lt. Johnson, who was electrocuted while fighting a fire. The Wichita paper said nothing about it, which is great. I had family who attended the funeral, and should ask, but I don't want to take anything away from the memory of the brave person who died.
If the clan was there, the Wichita press handled it great....But since all was quiet, my guess is that they weren't.
ontheotherhand (anonymous) says…
Tweak,
Most of the people walls I participated in were at K-State when he would picket at McCain Auditorium. I also was at Washburn a few times.
Logicsound, I understand the question you asked of Tweak about supporting Phelps' right to be a jerk even though he says he hates Phelps' actions. I feel the same way. I hope that maybe I answered your question in my previous post? I guess my simple feeling is that we shouldn't sweep blatant hatred under the rug when the not-so-loud hatred still exists all over the furniture. Just my opinion . . .
anneht (anonymous) says…
Please, please understand that this is not really a Baptist church!!! It is a misnomer that the word Baptist has ever been attached to this group.
LogicMan (anonymous) says…
Have any actions crossed the line to become libel and/or slander? If so, there's clear law there.
janeb (anonymous) says…
Be careful what you wish for folks, you just might get it. If Fred is stiffled so too will all of you be. There are reasons why the Consitution was written the way it was and why so many challenges have been struck down. When we as Americans press to alter and/or eliminate freedoms we do so to the detriment of our own freedoms. Those such as the Phelps clan will not stop speaking even if they are hindered by laws, but if this challenge is successful you will not be allowed to speak out against them without breaking the law. Fred and his offspring may go to jail but their funds are vast so they will be released and return to their mission. The average citizen may not have the funds to escape the repercussions of speaking out against him. Forum boards such as this one will cease to exist because they will be considered in violation of the very laws you as posters have been advocating for. This is a freedom I am not sure most want to give up.
ksdivakat (anonymous) says…
ok, this could really go to a bad place, and im not gonna go there, but I will say this tweekin, your absolutely right, 10 yrs ago I wasnt butting up against phelps for the way he treated gay people, and the reason is because i was to young, just a kid, but in recent history, when i have seen them on the street corner I have indeed approached them about the way they treat gay people, I never said that was right, its never been right, before or after a war, before or after a solider is killed. The point is...hes calling all soliders sodomites and all americans who dont agree with him.....well how does he know that? Did he know that the married solider was hitting it from the back with his wife? Id venture to say no, so why then was he picketing the funeral and saying that the guy was a "fag" freds term not mine? Because this is a man who is a gay person himself and is so homophobic about it that this is the way he reacts and raises his family!
How come normal rational thinking americans arent jumping on the band wagon with him if hes so right? How come the only people who go to his church are his immediate family members? How come the only reason they do this is for attention, and they get it? You must have had horrible experiences as a gay person to be as angry as you are, and i am truly sorry that there are people who have hang ups about being different, but its not my fault, and therefore should not subject me to your wrath. I wasnt anywhere ever protesting against you. I have never said an unkind word about a gay person. I have never shunned a person for being HIV or AIDS positive. So the fact that your so angry about people just now getting upset about this is false and untrue, people have been insulted by phelps for years, but this is the first time his preverbial butt has been on the line for crossing over it. ALong with freedom of speech comes a responsibility, and just how do you think you cam about to use that freedom of speech?? Because of the soliders that HES protesting against!!! If not for them, there would be no freedom of speech...and along with that freedom comes a responsibility, you cant just throw the right around and expect that you can use it whenever and howver you like! Thats not how other freedoms work! Again I say, since Phelps hates the USA and all that it stands for....take him to afghanistan so he can see what the lack of freedom is really all about!!!
costello (anonymous) says…
"I have heard that the Clan was at the Wichita funeral of the Lt. Johnson :But since all was quiet, my guess is that they weren't."
They were: http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/...
plasticJHawk (Jonathan Allison) says…
I never had though of it before that straight people are offended by the Phelps' message because it says that God Hates America because America Supports Homosexuals, and that straight people could be offended because they are being "accused of supporting gay people." So that you Tweakin for a different perspective.
I disapprove of the Phelps because they preach hate in the name of God, and I believe that God is Love. He's giving many loving Christians a black eye.
The_Voice_of_Reason (anonymous) says…
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
________________
Now I've read most of the posts and a lot of them say they stand behind free speech... and so do I. BUT notice in line two and three of the first amendment it says "or of the press." Now this being a "press" website where I should be allowed to say what I want, I still know that I can't use the unedited versions of F**k, S**t, B***h and other varying words. Same with television and radio, but aren't those words just words...??? Simply a combination of letters to form a sound? Yes! They are, but because someone(s) might find them offensive and hurtful we can't say them. So why would it be so bad to shut down these ass holes (two separate nouns LJW) and make everyone's life a lot better? I fully support the first amendment and all it stands for but remember there are other laws against defaming someone's' name or character with what you say and do.....
Just my two cents
The V of R
badger (anonymous) says…
anneht said:
"Please, please understand that this is not really a Baptist church!!! It is a misnomer that the word Baptist has ever been attached to this group."
And yet it has been attached. And I sure don't see a lot of Baptist churches (or large organizations like, say, the Southern Baptist Conference) advocating against the Phelps' right to apply that term to their church.
Some church body ordained Phelps. That body is remarkably silent on the topic of his continued practice as a Baptist minister, it seems to me. Are you suggesting that no one has the legal power to prohibit him from representing himself as a Baptist minister? Or is it just a matter of lack of inclination?
If I was ordained in a Baptist Church, set my family up as the "Badgerton Baptist Church," applied for tax-exempt church status, and began preaching a pro-homosexuality message, do you think someone would make me stop? The only reason I can imagine that someone hasn't enjoined Fred Phelps from representing himself as a Baptist minister is that they don't actually find his teachings particularly out of line.
You don't want people to associate him with the 'good' Baptists, then the 'good' Baptists need to take the word away from him.
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
ThatGirl, thanks for the info.
You mention WBC financial resources, and the truth is, nobody really has a clue. WBC has claimed to be a non-profit, a tax-exempt church for years... but they've never done one thing even remotely "Christian" that I'm aware of, except for donating the bare minimum in pro bono legal work. I've never heard of them working a soup kitchen, never heard of them handing out Bibles like the Gideons, never heard of them helping the homeless, never heard of them visiting the sick. They all have law degrees from Washburn U., and those that don't work for Phelps Chartered are bureaucrats of one form or another. Some of the girls worked in SRS for years (allegedly to smother any child endangerment claims that might be filed against the church), Tim Phelps has worked at Shawnee County Detention Center for years, and some very strange things have occurred on his watch. The Harkenburgers, the only other non-Phelps family that are WBC members, once had high positions at Birch Telecom in Topeka. One rumor is that back in the early '90s, before internet security existed... somebody might write a letter against the Phelps, it'd get printed in the newspaper... and then the next thing you know, the letter writer's credit ratings all took a mysterious nosedive...
Anyways, just as in a cult, everyone's paycheck supposedly goes into the same pot, and they do everything together. It's well-known that in the past 50+ years, no WBC member has been so much as even five minutes late paying a personal bill.
The money, one way or another is there... but getting the money would be a severe P.I.T.A. That's why I hope that, if Snyder wins, the clan will be bankrupted of the one thing you never get back: time. Rather than a class-action suit, I hope a Snyder win opens up a flood of lawsuits from one coast to the other... forcing the cult members to drive hither and to for court appearances. The Constitution may guarantee you the *right* to free speech... but it doesn't guarantee that you'll have the time in your day to do it! ;)
--Ag
P.S. Oh, and everybody should read this...
http://www.blank.org/addict
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
ksdivakat says:
"Again my point is, if they hate this country so much::lets send em to afghanistan and let them hunt down bin laden, I bet fred and old man bin laden have alot in common!!!"
_________________________________________________________
Of course they have a lot in common! They both hate America, and both disrespectfully wield their respective "God" like a blunt instrument.
Actually, they WBC has done their fair share of globetrotting over they years. And they've done so on your dime... my dime... and the "dimes" of everyone else reading this.
In 2003, they travelled to Baghdad to protest the military action there (the one that's still going on). There's even pics on the WBC web site (or there were, at one time), of a recent trip to Hawaii. Damn near the whole family went. Since they're a "church," they just have to say they're going over to "do missionary work" or "spread the Gospel" or some crap... and they get big tax breaks on everything. It's all tax-exempt: airfare, lodging, food, the works! They'll spend maybe one hour a day while they're there, standing on the street with a sign... and then the other 23 hours they're on the beaches, seeing the sights... some of 'em probably holed up in their rooms, watching porn on the hotel TV channels...
All funded by the U.S. government... spreading hate... in a Hawaiian paradise! :p
--Ag
artichokeheart (anonymous) says…
I read that a long time ago and wonder if the Aunt didn't have something to do with why Fred is such a hateful person.
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
Point of order, VofR:
The real reason you can't say what you want on this web site, is because this is a privately-owned and operated web site. Ultimately, First Amendment doesn't apply here. The routes you traveled to get here from your computer at home... *those* may be "government-owned," but the server where all this is housed is owned by a private company.
Just as you can stand out on the sidewalk and preach, but you can't go into Joe's Bar & Grill or Judy's Dress Shop and do or say whatever the hell you want.
We've paid no membership here, we're totally posting on the LJWorld's nickel. If they want to kick somebody off because they have poor grammar, they're perfectly in their right to do so.
Certain trolls have never come to grips with this concept...
--Ag
ontheotherhand (anonymous) says…
badger, your post made me smile (Badgerton Baptist Church). According to "Addicted to Hate," Phelps starts out in a particular Baptist church but his preachings turn really nasty and the congregation doesn't like how he abuses his kids in public. The Church deacons ask him to leave that particular church so he goes on to start his own church. (This was greatly paraphrased--I have not read "A to Hate" in a long time.)
In spite of what anneht said, I guess I have to disagree with her because I have heard many hateful sermons spewed from the mouth of Baptist preachers. Sure, I never heard any say "God Hates Fags," but I sure heard a lot of "Homosexuals are going to Hell." Sorry, but I don't see a lot of difference here. Personally, I'm a little confused as to how many (not all) pastors spend 90% of their sermon time talking about homosexuality and yet "Thou shalt not be gay" is not one of the 10 commandments, nor is the reference to homosexuality mentioned more than seven times throughout the bible (and I personally dispute that all of these times are even really about homosexuality, but I digress). Gays and lesbians must really have a lot of power that I don't understand or know about!
hottruckinmama (anonymous) says…
This past Satarday morning there was a funeral in Ottawa for a young man who had passed away from a sudden illness while serving his country in Iraq.
Members of the phelps family were present outside of the University Chapel where the services were held.
But I do not want to tell you about the phelps clan.
I want to tell you about the seemingly hundreds of Patriot Guards who were also in attendance to honor this young man, assist his family and also to make sure that the phelps did not have a chance to be seen spewing their filth.
I now live on Main Street in Ottawa near the University. What an awesome thing to see and hear all of these flag bearing motorcycles rumbling down our street and lining up to proceed to the funeral. Me and my youngest son sat out on the front porch just watching. As did most of our neighbors. I had a big old lump in my throat.
These people are awesome!!
I understand from friends who attended this young man's funeral that the phelps could barely be seen or heard.
moo (anonymous) says…
What if we petitioned news organizations to simply ignore Phelps? To me that seems like the best response. "Freedom of the press" also means that organizations have the freedom to choose NOT to report things. Phelps is one of those stories best left unprinted, not in order to sweep his hatred for gays and others under the rug (everyone should learn about this type of hatred in order to stop it), rather in order to finally shut the guy up. Nothing short of obscurity will do that. Who knows, maybe he would choose another cause, though I am sure equally despicable. Phelps needs to go, but through public action (or really in this case inaction) not through litigation which takes away rights from everyone.
I just wanted to also add a quick note to Tweakin, specifically. As a "breeder" (coming up with derogatory language in retaliation seems sort of silly to me) who has lived in Lawrence all my life, had my high school graduation as well as events since childhood picketed by Phelps, there has not been a time in my life when I wasn't sickened by his behavior. I understand your frustration with those who only care now that soldiers' funerals are being picketed, they are obviously not concerned with hatred against ALL Americans, but please don't generalize so widely. Most of the people I know in Lawrence hate Phelps and always have.
moo (anonymous) says…
Oh an in addition, I do not believe in Hell, but I hope that there is one, just for Phelps and his rabid followers.
Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…
It seems the nutcase here is the one flinging the barbs at Ag. Settle on down now, there will be a more harmonious outcome for all.
jhawks1510 (anonymous) says…
The Phelps's were hateful to protest gay funerals in the past and hateful to protest military funerals now. Some courts have taken the 1st Amendment too far, effectively stating that people have a right to not be offended, which is ridiculous. But their actions are intrusive, and should be illegal. A win by the Snyders isn't a defeat for free speech, but a victory for privacy.
God's a little smarter than we give him credit for. Let Fred have his day, St. Peter doesn't have him on the guest list.
artichokeheart (anonymous) says…
Why don't the funeral parlors/churches just put no trespass orders on the Phelps family?
Yeoman2 (anonymous) says…
I have another question, and it was touched on a few hundred posts back. Why have they not been charged with child endangerment and even child abuse? Small childern are included in these groups of "protesters". A child's life is formed and determined by their upbringing, and childern are regularly taken by the state from "bad" parents and dysfunctional family situations.
Where is Phill Kline and his "right to life" crowd regarding the Phelpses?????? These people are clearly abusing and destroying childern with their life-style. Why has not the State of Kansas stepped in and taken these vulnerable childern away from these vipers? No one could ever deny that they are in a "dysfunctional" family situation. No one could ever oppose such an action by state officials.
People are in prison for child abuse. Why are these criminally-insane people allowed to keep these defensless and doomed childern? If the state laws protecting childern are to have any meaning at all, all the Phelps clan belongs in prison for destroying the future lives of these small and innocent childern who will never escape the effects of the vitrolic cesspool that they are doomed to exist within.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"The only reason I can imagine that someone hasn't enjoined Fred Phelps from representing himself as a Baptist minister is that they don't actually find his teachings particularly out of line."
badger - you might be better positioned to see that they are primarily a lawsuit money-machine. Ask the dozens upon dozens of people they've sued for various offenses against them. Any ordinating body (if indeed there even is one) would certainly face this legal blackmail if they tried to rescind such recognition.
hottruckinmama (anonymous) says…
frwent...I've always ask that too. I've heard that they put their children out in front of them while protesting. Like little shields from someone taking a shot at them I suspect. Now how can that not be child endangerment?
Also how do they get all the money to fund all these activities? Just the cross country traveling can't be cheap. I understand that many of them have law degrees-but I would be shocked and amazed if anyone would hire them to be their laywer.
And the last thing..How do they manage to marry and reproduce? Can you imagine bringing a member of this family home to meet the parents? My God. That would be enough to send most parents running for an exorcist or a deprogramer! Do they interbreed or what?
Dwight_Schrute (anonymous) says…
spellwell, you do not. Clearly the families are offended. This article is about one who sued...perhaps you didn't read it. The wife of a deceased soldier whose funeral was picketed was responsible for passing anti-picketing legislation a year ago...yeah, I would say people are offended.
fetch (anonymous) says…
spywell sez: "I hope the poor families that are suffering from their loss are not offended by these public protesters"
. . .
wtf? As Dwight points out, isn't that exactly what happened? Can you even read?
none2 (anonymous) says…
spywell (Anonymous) says:
"I really don't think that these protesters actually have any hate towards the poor deceased..."
===============
Your probably correct. Most hate is directed towards someone who was once the object of love, but something went wrong. It can also be directed towards someone who heart someone who was loved. What they feel is indifference which is more vile than any hate could ever be. To protest while disregarding the feelings of loss by those attending is purely vile and disgusting. They are cowards that hide behind the skirts of freedom of speech.
===============
spywell (Anonymous) says:
"...realize that their only out to make their point that America is a sinful nation and that their loved one died defending a sinful nation..."
===============
Who are you to judge an entire nation? Are you God? Is America any more or less sinful than any other country? If you truly think that our islamo-facist enemies that killed these soldiers are less sinful, then you are just as vile as any of Phelps' protesters whether you hold a sign or not.
Crossfire (anonymous) says…
Phuck the Phreds...
Puck Fhill Kline.
Duck U DK
Somebody in China is firing up the T-Shirt press right now.
jonas (anonymous) says…
"Gays and lesbians must really have a lot of power that I don't understand or know about!"
I think they just make a convenient scapegoat, because there aren't that many of them, percentage wise, and man on man sex is "icky."
Spywell: I agree with you up to a point. It encompasses "they are doing this to shock," and ends with "to get their message out." The Phelps don't care on whit about their message, as far as I can see. Their logic in picketing has gotten more and more tenuous as they've switched venues from gay funerals to "soldiers who died because America loves gays" (certainly incorrect on at least three levels). What they are after is simply to shock, shock people into doing something that allows them to sue them and collect money to support themselves further. I think they realized that soldier funerals gave them this chance, being much more inflammatory that just picketing dead gays.
gayokay (anonymous) says…
First Amedment speach is protected but that does not include fighting words. What the cult does is disorderly conduct. Inciting violence is not protected speech.
The cult cries and whines to the cops every time someone egages them in the very rage that they intending to incite. They call the cops for protection yet they drag their children out there to be in the middle of a dangerous situation 20 times a week. If they have to call the police for protection from enraged passers by then they are knowingly exposing their children to danger. This is clearly child endangerment. If they continue to engage in activity that the court does not recognize as protected speech but rather as disorderly conduct they will be putting their law licenses in jeapardy.
I think that the jury will likely find for the grieving father and against the cult. They were clearly trying to inflict emotional harm on the grieving family. The damages while they may be hard to collect may actually be further reaching. The cult is comprised of attorney's that can potentially be disbarred for engaging in illegal activity.
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
Crossfire (Anonymous) says:
Phuck the Phreds:
Puck Fhill Kline.
Duck U DK
Somebody in China is firing up the T-Shirt press right now.
_______________________________________________
Any ideas for a t-shirt slogan or two?
"Westboro Bigot Cult: **Not** Invincible!"
"Fred Phelps: Spiritually and Financially Bankrupt!"
"Al beat Fred--You Can, Too!"
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
http://www.americanplan.org
badger (anonymous) says…
75x55 said:
"badger - you might be better positioned to see that they are primarily a lawsuit money-machine. Ask the dozens upon dozens of people they've sued for various offenses against them. Any ordinating body (if indeed there even is one) would certainly face this legal blackmail if they tried to rescind such recognition."
Well, then, I believe the adage that applies is, "Lie down with dogs, rise up with fleas." They've chosen to live with the association because it would cost too much to end it.
If the fear of legal and fiscal repercussions is what keeps a large-scale outcry against the Phelpses from emerging from the rest of the Baptist churches in this country, then I guess you can put a price on the reputation of one's faith - either in actual money or time spent in court.
So, what will he have to do to overcome the break-even point? At what point will it become monetarily feasible for Baptist churches and ministers to publicly call for him to be barred from representing himself as one of them?
Or to put it bluntly, what's their price, exactly?
BorderRat (anonymous) says…
When I see the protesters, Self Loathing comes to mind.
Crossfire (anonymous) says…
At this point the inbred Phreds have to leave the state to spread their hate excrement.
The Patriot Guard Riders Keep them away from the funerals here.
123smilie (anonymous) says…
how exactly is america more sinful then the rest of the world, anyway? and what gives THEM the right to judge an entire country?
i feel sorry for those poor kids...
that's my two cents worth...
mom_of_three (anonymous) says…
Thanks, whomever gave me the information about Lt. Johnson's funeral. Then the Wichita paper and media did a great job of focusing on Lt. Johnson, than on the protesters. I wasn't even sure they were there. My sister was at his funeral, but I didn't want to ask her.
I think if they are so worried about how Americans will make it to heaven, then they should be protesting on the street everyday. But they are probably too scared.
I hope the jury does the right thing.
The ACLU is representing the daughter in Nebraska for the child endangerment case from the flag incident. I know it's their job, but I wonder if they have trouble finding lawyers for these people.
costello (anonymous) says…
"I think if they are so worried about how Americans will make it to heaven, then they should be protesting on the street everyday. But they are probably too scared."
Yeah. I don't know. I used to work with some of the granddaughters - Lizzie, Sara, and Jael. I questioned them a little about their theology. It was clear as mud to me, but my understanding was that they believe we go to heaven through God's grace only, not through anything we do or fail to do in this life. So I asked them how they knew Matthew Shepard was in hell - as they claim on their website - and why bother with the picketing if it doesn't matter what you do. I was quoted from Jeremiah "make your voice like a trumpet." When I asked who God was talking to when he said make your voice like a trumpet, they admitted it was Isaiah, not Fred Phelps. But nevertheless they enjoy the whole trumpet thing.
At any rate, they flatly told me that they weren't trying to save anyone from hell fire. None of it ever made any sense to me, and eventually Lizzie told me that her parents had instructed her not to discuss their religion with anyone at work.
And I don't think they're scared.
costello (anonymous) says…
I just checked their website, and it isn't "God's grace" but "the Elect" they were always talking about:
"only god's elect have the capability to believe.
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39,40."
I think - please don't quote me - that we're to infer from this passage that God has hardened the hearts of those of us who aren't among the elect, so we *can't* understand the message the Phelps crowd is preaching. I don't see the logic of the preaching to people who can't understand - aside from the joy of making one's voice like a trumpet - but I'm sure there's a reason. Whatever else you may say about them, the Phelpses aren't stupid people, and when they do something, they have a reason for it.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
Classic brainwashed family cult.
costello (anonymous) says…
This is from their FAQ's:
"What are you trying to accomplish?
"First, our goal is to preach the Word of God to this crooked and perverse generation. By our words, some will repent. By our words, some will be condemned. Whether they hear, or whether they forbear, they will know a prophet has been among them. It is the solemn job of a believing Christian to preach the Gospel to every creature, and warn them to flee from the wrath to come. 'For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!' I Corinthians 9:16. Second, our goal is to glorify God by declaring His whole counsel to everyone. Third, we hope that by our preaching some will be saved. As Jude said, on some have compassion, making a difference, but others save with fear.
"Have any homosexuals repented as a result of your picketing?
"Yes, but this doesn't matter. Christianity is not a game, consisting of who can get the most people to repent. Our job is simply to preach, and by the foolishness of our preaching, we hope that people will be saved. However, Jesus is the Savior, not us. No man can come unto Him unless the Father in heaven draws him, and He will call His sheep. Remember, Noah preached for 120 years and convinced nobody, and by that righteous preaching, he condemned the world."
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq....
So, I guess they do think they can save someone with their preaching.
costello (anonymous) says…
I found this on their FAQ's as well:
"Can I donate money to you? Can I buy one of your awesome shirts?
"No, you cannot donate money to us. We don't accept donations. We don't want your money. We don't make merchandise of the Gospel. 'Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.' (John 2:16). 'Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.' (3 John 1:7). Likewise, we don't sell shirts. If you want one, go to a local shirt-maker near you and custom-make your own."
That made me smile, because I do know that their kids take work-study jobs in college. And I've heard they took their swimming pool as a tax deduction because they use it for baptisms for their church.
I was talking to Jael one day, joking about making big brightly-colored signs with Bible quotations to be used against the Phelpses. She gave me one that hit on this very point - taking money from us evil, filthy sodomites. I'm sorry I can't remember the quote.
mom_of_three (anonymous) says…
I think they are scared to a point, because they only picket where there is a crowd, or cameras present. If they weren't afraid, then they would be on a regular street corner, or a regular funeral. But they want witnesses
costello (anonymous) says…
"I think they are scared to a point, because they only picket where there is a crowd, or cameras present."
You may have a point. I recall Jael telling me of a protest she wanted to do at a sunrise Easter celebration. Something about standing there eating chocolate made to look like poop. Her parents told her not to do it. Maybe they thought it wouldn't be safe for her to do that alone? Or maybe it just wasn't eye catching enough? Or the press would still be in bed at sunrise? I don't know. I agree with you. The less attention they get, the better.
janeyb (anonymous) says…
Didn't know if anyone had heard the outcome.
baltimore - a federal jury today awarded the father of a fallen Marine $2.9 million in compensatory damages after finding an anti-gay Kansas church and three of its leaders liable for invasion of privacy and intent to inflict emotional distress for picketing the Marine's funeral in 2006.
The jury was to begin deliberating the size of punitive damages after receiving further instructions, although U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett noted the size of the compensatory award "far exceeds the net worth of the defendants," according to financial statements filed with the court.
mom_of_three (anonymous) says…
just saw the headline in the Wichita paper. It's great...wonder what will happen next....
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
Hold on tight, kiddies... the floodgates are open!
--Ag
Agnostick (anonymous) says…
The next chapter in the Phelps saga?
Chapter 7!!!!!!!!!!
costello (anonymous) says…
I hope the decision stands up to appeals.
costello (anonymous) says…
"Snyder's suit named the church, its founder the Rev. Fred Phelps and his two daughters Shirley Phelps-Roper and Rebecca Phelps-Davis, 46. ...
...
"The judge said the church's financial statements that had been unsealed could be released to the plaintiffs."
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/st...
I wonder if Shirley and Rebecca have jobs where their wages can be garnished. Also, can you declare bankruptcy in order to avoid paying a judgment like this?
costello (anonymous) says…
Sorry, I forgot to include the link for the quotation above: http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/st...
abbynormal (anonymous) says…
They protested the Free State Graduation this year. It was great because there were a handful of kids counter protesting. I didn't see them (the kids) being rude or badgering the Phelps (although they deserve it.) These kids just stood there, with their signs and told everyone to try to have a nice afternoon and enjoy the day and not to let ignorant people get them down on a special day. Way to go youth of America!
My favorite sign I recall was "I'm an intolerant Red neck too!" (Obviously sarcasm.)
Way to go kids.
sfjayhawk (anonymous) says…
This to me looks like justice served. Lets all show up to cheer while the sheriff auctions off Hater Phelps property.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/10/31/...
sfjayhawk (anonymous) says…
Tweaking, dont for one minute accuse this man of getting his 'wittle feewings' hurt - this man lost his child, in a needless, bull**it war, and was given no chance to grieve at this heroes funeral. No one is stopping you from doing whatever you want to - if you feel like suing phelps.. go for it - but dont, for a second, even think that you will ever deal with what this poor man will have to live with.
To phelps and his clan, you faced one judgment day today, and as far as Im concerned, justice was server - But there is another, eternal judgment coming soon!
Calliope877 (anonymous) says…
Tweakin,
Wouldn't you feel enraged if someone like Phelps picketed the funeral of one of your loved ones? Whether it be a lover, a close friend, or a family member, you'd have to be despicably apathetic if your answer to that question is "No." I usually scoff at frivolous lawsuits over tedious matters, but I don't think this father's ordeal can be categorized as frivolous. And the interuption of his son's funeral by a bunch of idiotic lunatics holding hateful signs is NOT just a tedious annoyance he had to endure. In my opinion, this lawsuit has merit. But I agree with you that it may be unlikely they'll see a dime of that money.
As far as I'm concerned, this poor man had one of two options in order to defend his fallen son's honor: 1) hunt down the Phelps clan and kill every man, woman, and child involved in the protests, or 2) file a lawsuit.
He chose the legal way to go about it.
none2 (anonymous) says…
"sfjayhawk (Anonymous) says:
Tweaking, dont for one minute accuse this man of getting his 'wittle feewings' hurt - this man lost his child, in a needless, bull**it war, and was given no chance to grieve at this heroes funeral."
======================
Would his son be any less dead or this man's heart any less hurt by this loss if it has been a necessary or justified war? Whether you like the war or not, the people who were there to mourn should have been left in peace to grieve.
======================
"TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says: "...I was kind of hoping that Phelps would win this one. That father is basically suing Phelps because his wittle feewings got hurt. What a wuss. Us Queers have dealt with this with grace ever since it started..."
======================
Are you that heartless or are you wanting to be canonized? If it is the former, then I feel sorry for anybody who tries to befriend you. If it is the latter, please come down off your cross as others have more need for the wood.
janeb (anonymous) says…
Really now if someone is going to sue for death of a Soldier they should sue George 1 & 2 for their losses. I'm glad Fred lost but doubt he will pay anything and too doubt he will ever stop protesting until he himself is dead. There will always be more Phelps to carry on the family tradition I am sure. There is money behind the Phelps beyond what they claim in assets. Not sure how they hide it but they do. Hope the Father feels better though.
EXks (anonymous) says…
Of course the un-American Phelps scum will never pay one penny to this family.
Their clan will keep this tied up in courts until pa Phelps himself finally dies and on when that day comes I'll pop open a bottle of champagne
laughingatallofu (anonymous) says…
>>>
ThatGirl (Anonymous) says:
Wow. This story just made me sad. It's just:.tremendously sad how horrible people can be to each other. That these morons never stop to think that these people are someone's husband, brother, wife, sister, father::.it just astouds me.
<<<
Then just look back at all of the hurtful comments that were made on this forum yesterday about the LHS teacher who was convicted of taking advantage of a student (or something like that--whatever) and is now being chastized by the "experts" on this forum because she has been diagnosed with a bi-polar disorder. There are a lot of ignorant people who populate this site. Unfortunately, they are too ignorant to know themselves.
laughingatallofu (anonymous) says…
>>>
TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says:
I was kind of hoping that Phelps would win this one. That father is basically suing Phelps because his wittle feewings got hurt. What a wuss. Us Queers have dealt with this with grace ever since it started.
I am not aware of ANY Gay person, or family ever filing such a law suit. And I am sure that had this lawsuit been filed by a GAY person, then it wouldn't have ever seen the light of day.
So, do us HOMOs get to file a class-action lawsuit against Phelps?
<<<
So Take 'em on TT! Or are you just a "wuss" (your term, not mine). Put up or shut up.
sfjayhawk (anonymous) says…
Perez really hit the nail on the head
http://perezhilton.com/?cat=20
laughingatallofu (anonymous) says…
OOPS!
My comment posted at 8:54 pm is in the wrong spot. My Bad. Darn Computers! My apologies to all.
anneht (anonymous) says…
In answer to someone quite a ways back, yes, they do inbreed.... they only marry people from the one only other church that has the same beliefs, calling itself Baptist, in the whole country.... This is NOT a true Baptist church, people! They also do not believe in any form of birth control, so they are reproducing themselves, having started with 12 or 13 of Fred's own children. They have it all figured out, only an act of God can stop them (no pun intended). as far as Fred being ordained, does anyone know that he is? If so, it would probably have been by that other oddball church with the same beliefs, which are not Baptists!
jonas (anonymous) says…
I have a feeling that the best way to deal with Tweakin is the same as the best way to deal with Phelps, for the same reason: he's after your attention, so just ignore him.
none2 (anonymous) says…
TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says:
"I'll tell you what is TRULY despicable was the apathy of the breeders who claimed that they somehow opposed Phelps, but fundamentally AGREE with him. And that did nothing, other then pay some lip-service to funeral etiquette when they saw phelps picketing OUR funerals."
=====================
I have no problem with condemning hypocrites. However, I have the sense to separate the flowers from the weeds. There is a difference between xians and their followers who thinly veil their condemnation of the Phelps with "the love the sinner, despise the sin" nonsense versus true Christians. Furthermore, calling some people breeders is just so childish. There are heterosexuals who don't have, can't have, don't want kids. Just like there are homosexuals who do. Get over it. Fighting bigotry with more bigotry is stupid.
=====================
TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says:
"Hello? Hello? Honey?
Remember AIDS? Yes, it's still around, and people are still dying from it. Since your history book appearently starts at 9/11/2001..."
=======================
Sorry to have to do this, but the current year is 2007. Some people choose to live in the present while others dwell in the past. However, it gets awfully boring listening to someone go on and on with my pain is larger than your pain. Sure misery loves company, but perhaps a better outlet would be some social group that caters to this -- one where you can waller in pity all day long. In the mean time you should be happy that Fred's clan got sued and lost. Remember that the old saying holds true: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Just because this father may not be attracted to you or your friends doesn't make his victory any less enjoyable.
Furthermore, as vial as some of the xian intolerance or hypocracy may be, it isn't nearly as bad as that of islamo-fascists. (The exception being that for some weird reason, they are cool with transexuality. I guess even sexually frustrated fanatics have a kinky side.) For every thing you dislike about America, be thankful that you don't live in many of the other places in the world. (This is a lesson that I hope you can understand as I know Fred cannot seem to fathom it.) There are very few places that are more tolerant than America. People give the example of Europe and Canada, but frankly I saw plenty of intolerance there they just show it in more subtle ways.
badger (anonymous) says…
Tweekin, I've been aware of Phelps' protests, probably as long as you have. This moral indignation act is out of line. Your own hate is pretty ugly, frankly. People like you hurt the gay community more than you help it.
You know, why should I care about what someone does at your funeral if you're going to spit at me and call me 'breeder'? I find your dismissal of straight folks as 'breeders' distasteful and offensive.
Here's a thing to think about: if only openly gay people cared about and spoke against what happened to gay people, nothing would ever have changed. The status quo is shifting because people like me looked around and said, "Hey, that's not right. I have rights and privileges those people there don't have, and they didn't do anything to get those rights and privileges denied them but be different," not because people like you spewed hate on the 'breeders'. When the dust settles, you'll find that the people who made change, gay or not, were the ones out here looking for consensus and common ground - and that you divisive twits consistently set actual legislative and social equality back because it's really hard to convince a politician to advocate for a small minority of people if they call him names and deride him for his sexuality while demanding respect for theirs.
In 1991, I threw away my 'Straight but not Narrow' pin, because a friend pointed out to me that so long as I was afraid being a gay rights advocate would make people think I was gay, so long as I felt I had to make that distinction, I was still, in some ways, part of the problem. Anyone who insists on making individual sexuality a factor in advocacy is part of the problem. I had to advocate without fear of what people would think about me, and so I did. There are still people in the world for whom my heterosexuality is a bit of a surprise, and there were people who unloaded the full dosage of their Phelps-like hatred over my head more than once. You say you've been there, done that? Join the club, sweet cheeks.
So when some Janie-come-lately snippy little chit like you deigns to spit 'breeder' and 'straighty' at people like me and talk about how the straights did 'nothing' for you, I call BS. What rights GLBT folks have today they owe to three groups: first and foremost to the people who had the courage to live out and queer without being ashamed, second to people in the mainstream like me who stood up loudly for a group that didn't include them - because it was the right thing to do, and third to lawmakers who continue to try to bring legal structures that establish equal rights, privileges, and treatment into play. If it had stopped with the first group, gay-rights advocacy groups would have about as much political clout as NAMBLA, and about as much chance of being treated with respect.
So cool your jets with the self-righteous breeder-hate, sparky. It's counterproductive to getting the rights and respect you say you want.
badger (anonymous) says…
anneht:
I say again, until Baptists make him stop representing himself as one of them, then you merit the association. I see a lot of individual Baptists saying, "No, no, we're not like that," but I sure don't see a lot of Baptist ministers or church organizations formally disavowing that connection. 75x55 tells me that it's a matter of fiscal and legal convenience for you all to keep silent on the matter.
Let me know what the going price is for the silence of a Baptist church these days. We have a pretty decent idea of the price of silence in a Catholic diocese is after the last few years, so I figure it's only fair that we find out what your culpability is worth as well.
Speak up and speak out to publicly reject his hate, or take your tarring with his brush gracefully. Impassioned anonymous pleas on an internet message board to consider you 'different' don't hold much water, frankly. That's why when I refer to them in conversation, I like to use the full name of their organization, the Westboro *Baptist* Church, loudly and often. I want people to make that association so you all can't keep getting away with letting him hang out on your coattails and then saying, "We're not really like that, but what can you do?" with a wink and a nod because he's saying some things you wish you could say, if only it weren't so impolitic to do so...
none2 (anonymous) says…
TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says: "Would you go dig up Martin Luther King and tell him to pipe down and let whitey do the fightn' for him and his cause?"
So now you are on par with MLK?
TweakinTopekan (Anonymous) says: "Keep YOUR self-righteous indignation to YOUR self."
Look who is calling the kettle black.
I know your type, I've met plenty over the years. The fact of the matter is you love Fred and you need Fred because you love being on the pity pot. He's your raison d'etre.
Had Badger said he was gay, then you would have said he wasn't gay enough. Had he said he was VERY gay, then you would have said you were a minority gay and thus had more pain growing up. If he had said he was a minority gay, then you would have said you were a minority, transgendered gay. If he had said he was additionally paraplegic, you would have responded that you were quadriplegic. If he had said he were Jewish and new about being on the outside of the majority religion, you would have responded back that you were Jewish, pagean, muslim, and Baha'i and knew even more what is means to suffer.
You have been watching too many Hollywood movies from the old days where they over-acted. If your attitude makes you happy, so be it. Just realize that your attitude turns normal people of all races, creeds, genders, sexual preferences, etc OFF. If you even had any valid points they were lost in the stench of emotional tantrums.
Calliope877 (anonymous) says…
TweakinTopekan,
Your hatred for straight people mirrors Fred's hatred for everyone.
artichokeheart (anonymous) says…
All of you are filled with hate, but you justify it by grouping yourselves with the milieu. Instead of admonishing Fred we should all offer loving forgiveness no matter what is said or done. All the Father did in this case is throw gas on a burning fire. I like the way so many of you call yourselves Christians yet you nit pick every little detail. Me I'm a sinner; a horrible sinner but at least I have enough compassion to know Fred and his have been wounded and misguided. Give peas a chance for christ sakes.
badger (anonymous) says…
Tweakin,
I guess you missed the part where I said first and foremost that the people who deserve credit are the people who had the courage to live out and proud. Doesn't fit your mantra of hate, there, sparky, so you ignored it, I imagine. Fair 'nuff.
Uncle Tom it if you think that's the best role for you; I think other approaches are more likely to be successful. What I actually said was that without the support of people out here looking at consensus and common ground, especially the people who took on the struggle when they had no other vested interest but its moral rightness, you'd still be screaming to be heard and being blown off by those in power. You dismiss and insult people who risked a lot for your gain, sweet cheeks, and in doing so you lose yourself allies you'll probably need in the coming fight. Cause you know and I know that it's not done yet, and there's still a lot of people trying to marginalize you back into your corner. Without allies, you'll lose. Now, if you think you and the eight people who meet your personal criteria for 'gay enough' or 'credible enough' are going to have the clout and political wherewithal to get the rest of the rights and respect you deserve, then hey, maybe I'll sit this one out and let you do the heavy lifting this time. But since you don't actually meet *my* criteria for 'credible enough', I imagine I'll still have a dog in this fight after all. I can't see myself leaving it to you with any sort of ease of mind on the matter, muffin. I'd like it to turn out well, after all.
I apologise for thinking you were younger than you claim to be. All I have to go on is your mode and manner of expression; perhaps it's worth considering your presentation if you're offended by the assumption of less maturity than you feel you have.
none2 (anonymous) says…
TweakinTopekan you are just as fowl mouthed as Fred. And yes I do know your type. Lets call it the "phelpian" personality. It is common amongst the uber-self-righteous crowd. You've probably been whining for so many years to the point you don't even make sense to anybody except for other phelpian personalities.
Some people see a cup with water at the middle and say that the glass is half full. Some see the same cup with water and say that it is half empty. Then some others dump the water and start screaming they deserve martyrdom because they were denied water. That's the phelpian personality.
Go ahead and keep screaming and feeling sorry for yourself. One day hopefully you'll either find Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Gaia, or perhaps some 12-step program. In the mean time just know that nobody really cares what you say because like the child who cried wolf too many times, people just quit listening.
You shouldn't travel to the middle east any time soon. If you think you have a problem with Christianity, feel free to come out to their Islamofacists counterparts. You'd be so lucky if the only thing they did to you was put up some sign that you were going to hell. The first time you saw their blade, you'd be screaming for an American soldier to rescue you and bring you back to the good old USA.
If you had any grace about you you would apologize to the father of that soldier. Whether you believe in the war or not, whether "don't ask don't tell" bothers you or not, whether that father gets money or not, you should. Of course you won't because your heart is made of stone -- by your OWN doing.
ksgeezer (anonymous) says…
What is the difference between Fred Phelps and Osama, beside the bombs?
artichokeheart (anonymous) says…
Frd doesn't kill people he mocks them ofter death and George Bush knows where Fred is.
blackwalnut (anonymous) says…
According to Fred Phelps, our Senator Sam Brownback approves of what he and his group are doing.
Thank goodness Brownback has dropped out of the national race. Now maybe we can get him out of the Senate, too. What a disgrace. Kansas deserves better than Phelps and Brownback.
none2 (anonymous) says…
ksgeezer (Anonymous) says: "What is the difference between Fred Phelps and Osama, beside the bombs?"
Fred and his kind are like extremely annoying mosquito. They need psychiatric care.
Osama and his kind are the re-incarnation of Hitler & the SS. If they had their way everybody would be killed except for fellow radical muslims. They need to build a prison a mile deep in the ground at the south pole with minimal lighting. Put all the Islamo-facists in that prison for the rest of their lives and never see the light of day. They live by the sword, so let them spend the rest of their lives contemplating what it means to be buried and forgotten as were so many of their victims. Death would be too kind for them.
badger (anonymous) says…
In its most benign, Tweakin', 'breeder' is factually inaccurate. I have no children and am not engaged in the process of attempting to conceive one (either in the acute sense of 'having sex right this minute' nor in the broader sense of 'in the early stages of family planning'). I'm not breeding any more than you are, sparky. Unless you've been vasectomized, you've got just as much capacity for passing on your genetic material as I do mine.
If nothing else, 'breeder' offends because I object to being referred to by a term that supposes certain things about my parenthood, fertility, and sexual practices that are not true. I'm sure you, with your long-suffering history of martyrdom, can probably understand that notion. Doing unto others what you complain that they have done to you isn't justice; it's a double standard.
On another level, I find the use of the term 'breeder' to refer to heterosexuals implies that somehow parenthood is an act and activity reserved for straights. I don't believe that, and as I see a growing number of gays and lesbians using alternate means to conception and raising their own biological children, I think the facts back me up. Why would I support the use of a term directed at me that is, at its base, reinforcing an anti-gay stereotype I'd like to see end?
Finally, for you to suggest that you did not use the term in malice is disingenuous. You use it because you *know* it's a derogatory term and that it's offensive. If you honestly don't realize that the word is consistently used by gays looking to reinforce the divides between gay and straight populations (and generally disregard bisexuals, who get a special kind of 'breeder lite' contempt), then you ought to choose your words more carefully, kiddo.
oldgoof (anonymous) says…
Tweek sounds a lot like the people written about here:
http://blank.org/addict/
I highly recommend reading it to know about the pathology of the Phelps family.
badger (anonymous) says…
Oh, and Tweakin?
I actually came to terms over a decade ago with the fact that most people can't figure out whether or not I'm straight. There are some changes I could have made to be more 'gender-defined', altering my mannerisms, my dress, or my hair, but the way I look and act is the way I look and act, and I'm not inclined to change it just because of some misplaced fear of what folks might assume. I know I'm straight, and the people I date or am interested in dating know I'm straight, and beyond that it doesn't so much matter what other people think.
Heck, most of the people who post on this forum are undecided when it comes to the matter of my gender, when you really come right down to it. The specifics of gender and sexuality don't appear to really affect my interactions here. I've made it clear I'm in a monogamous relationship, which means that the only matter in which my sexuality might have been relevant (outside of your attacks on people who have it) is a moot point anyway because I'm not available for dating.
So, no, outside of occasional complications in my dating pursuits of people of the opposite gender, I have utterly no qualms about people assuming I'm gay. Am I bothered when people treat me shabbily because they assume I'm not straight? Absolutely, but that's because I'm bothered that gay people are treated differently, not because the standard's been applied to me. The response is generally, "I can't believe you just said that," as opposed to, "Hey, I'm not gay." The only reason I brought my own sexuality into this conversation is because YOU started attacking people who have it.
On privilege? I agree completely that I've benefited from it. I can't undo that; I was born into a system I certainly didn't create that characterizes me as morally superior due to an accident of genetics and upbringing. Straight people have an incredible social and political advantage conferred by an imaginary veneer of respectable morality. I believe that gives me an incredible responsibility to use what privilege has given me - a certain credibility, greater safety from persecution, and more political power and access - to benefit those who are marginalized. Systems based on privilege can't change unless those who have it use it to end it. Sure, bloody revolution sounds like fun, but I question its efficacy as a tool of social reform.
p95151 (anonymous) says…
Since it's a matter of public record, anyone feel like having a little fun at Freddy's house at 3600 SW Holly Lane in Topeka? Maybe picket his ignorant, hateful self? Or we can all have a little fun at his church at 3701 SW 12th St in Topeka! Come on, all! What do you say? Give him a little taste of his own medicine???
For the record, the Shawnee County public access site is:
http://www.co.shawnee.ks.us/Ap/R_prop...
Look him up yourselves! Let's play!!!
waverydr (anonymous) says…
The fact that this family and followers is getting so much attention is disturbing to me. Rather then debate whether or not they have freedom to spread such bigot hatred why not just debate their message altogether and their claims on such message. We the people could belittle their message or make it more powerful by how we respond.
It is interesting to me that these so called Christians are condemning funerals in the name of the Christian religion. By their actions and words they are proving how ignorant they are when it comes to the religion and the Book that they think they are representing. I personally would put them in the category of moral deist's rather than Christianity.
If they truly understood the Book that they claim to be basing their protests on there wouldn't be any protests about "God judging America because of homosexual sin" at all. If they want to talk about sin how about talking about bearing false witness, lies and slander all of which they are currently committing by their words and actions.
Are they claiming to know the hidden will of God? Did they receive some kind of special revelation apart from whats already written? If so wouldn't that classify them as a cult? Instead of seeing the beautifully laid out picture in history that the Book gives us they are focusing on 1 or 2 details without taking into account the finished work. Like looking at a .02 percent finished Rembrandt painting and calling it crap before the finished work is presented the Phelps and their band of moral deists are taking a small fraction of what is written out of context without understanding all the details and using it for their own purposes.
Phelps is quoted more than once stating "America. A sodomite nation of flag-worshiping idolaters. Many States-and now Congress-are moving in a frenzied orgy of lawless, unconstitutional legislation to criminalize WBC's Gospel preaching. " He uses the word Gospel as if what he was preaching was Gospel instead of law and hate. The word Gospel literally means Good News. I ask you is his preaching Good News or is it self righteous moral law redirect. If it is self righteous redirect wouldn't that put them in the same category as the pharisees in which the Book, that they say they represent, said that the God who was man stood against? Are they not judging themselves by trying to judge a whole nation by claiming that they know what God is doing apart from His revealed truth.
In my estimation they are not practicing Christianity but their own brand of moral deism. Christianity in its pure form is God coming down to man and declaring man righteous by God's own work so that man can stand before God confidently and secure without fear of judgment. This is done by God because of mans multitude of sins and inability to render himself righteous. The true Gospel is "while we where yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly". Now thats true Gospel and real Good News!
rosesarered (anonymous) says…
I love you Badger
badger (anonymous) says…
Light in the loafers metrosexual?
I must declare, that may be the first time anyone's ever called me metrosexual. To my face, at least. Huh. Life is full of new experiences.
I explained what I'm offended about, sparky. Factual inaccuracy, stereotype reinforcement, and intentionally derogatory commentary. I can put that into monosyllabic words if you're still having trouble.
No Kool-Aid for me, and I'm not actually sure who you mean by 'agnutcase'? Is it a public figure or a poster?
knowtoomuch (anonymous) says…
Could Marietta N. Parker & Terra D. Morehead U.S District Attorney's be Involved in Missing Evidence Found for Sale In Local Pawn Shops In Lawrence kansas ?
The Yellow House Fencing investigation had turned ugly for the Lawrence police dept.
Officer's Jay Bialek and Officers Mickey Rantz interviewed yellow house costumers while impersonating FBI agents in a effort to intimidate these costumers. The media picked up the story and Marietta Parker and Terra Morehead both U.S. assistants District Attorneys for the state of Kansas tried to help the Lawrence police Chief Ron Olin cover up the impersonations by launching a Fake FBI investigation into the Lawrence Police dept. complete with a fake FBI agent named Mr. Bob Schaefer.
Mr. Bob Schaefer had several meetings with the media, attorneys, and officials from the Lawrence police dept. Mr. Schaefer was sent here from K.C. When Lawrence in in the jurisdiction of the Topeka FBI office. Mrs. Marietta Parker is in some hot watter with the real FBI now and it has come to the attention of the real FBI that the Lawrence police dept. has evidence missing from the Police evidence room and some of this missing evidence have turned up in both local pawn shops here in Lawrence.
The property missing from the evidence room consisted of firearms, drugs,tools ect..
Could this missing property be the reason the federal prosecutor's Parker and Morehead violated the law posing as FBI agency and conspired to impersonate a FBI agent by sending Mr. Schaefer here to smooth things out ? (a fake FBI agent)
Could these Federal prosecutors be involved in the illegal removal of property from the police evidence room and the selling of it to the local pawn shops ?
Think about it for a min. when the dirty Lawrence police officers arrest someone and get the Justice dept. to charge them on the federal level based on lies it could be a nice gig , yep once your case go's to federal court most attorneys advice is to plea and take the deal, this will allow the cops to keep your seized property to sell to the pawn shops and it allows the dirty Justice dept. prosecutors to Take your home and business through forfeitures just to keep a winning conviction record
and everybody's happy except the poor person who was intimidated and now is going to jail as a innocence person because he listened to his dirty attorney who never believed in him in the 1st place.
Just how much money is worth violating a federal prosecutor's oath of offices ?
How much missing evidence from the evidence room is worth violating your oath office as a law enforcement officer ?
Do you think these Dirty law enforcements officials will be held accountable for their actions , its a sad day when the law enforcement officers and the Justice dept. Federal officials are not held to the same strict code of conduct they hold the public to.
badger (anonymous) says…
Tweaky, do you have any idea how arrogant and condescending *you're* being when you denigrate people who've done a lot to help your particular cause because you think their sexuality invalidates any contributions they might have made?
You're putting words in my mouth, sparky. You disregard every instance where I point out that primary credit for gains in equality belongs to people who risked their lives and livelihoods by being openly gay, so you can make your hyperbolic 'massah' statements (by the way, since you don't know my race any more than my gender, you're quite arrogant to assume I'm a white male who won't be offended by your minstrel-show references. I find the race-baiting tactics you're using very hostile) and play Wounded Martyr. All I'm saying is that there just aren't enough gay people with enough power to bring about permanent change by themselves, and there never were. That change will only come if people who have privilege recognize the inequality and stand up on your side. It's not arrogance, it's an understanding of basic politics and the dynamics of social power.
You need straight allies to make equality a reality for gays, just like I need Christian allies to make equality a reality for pagans. Without sympathetic Christians willing to push for First Amendment protections for pagans, my friends and I would all still be in the broom closet. I'm at least mature enough to recognize that what we've gained, we didn't gain alone.
kneejerkreaction (anonymous) says…
"knowtoomuch says - in some hot watter with the real FBI now and it has come to the attention of the real FBI that the Lawrence police dept. has evidence missing from the Police evidence room and some of this missing evidence have turned up in both local pawn shops here in Lawrence.
The property missing from the evidence room consisted of firearms, drugs,tools ect.".
*******
knowtoomuch, you are a complete idiot. Complete. And, you are a liar. None of what you wrote above is true. I'm very familiar with this case.
And, we all know who you are, yellowhouse. You guys bought stolen merchandise, fenced it to the general public and on ebay and you got caught. That's the real story.
Don't point fingers. Swallow your medicine or lay in the bed in which you shat.
none2 (anonymous) says…
badger (Anonymous) says: "Tweaky, do you have any idea how arrogant and condescending *you're* being when you denigrate people who've done a lot to help your particular cause because you think their sexuality invalidates any contributions they might have made?..."
Of course he does, he thrives on it just like Fred does... Badger, you come across as someone who tries to find good in everybody. I was the same way when I was younger. Sometimes you just can't spend hours, days, weeks, years trying to find it in some individuals. To keep trying will just get you more frustrated and tempt you to get down to their level. Tweaky chooses his lifestyle. (I'm not talking about sexual preference, but rather his disgusting, condescending, self-righteousness.) He is the flip side of the same coin as Fred -- cut from the same cloth. There is nothing you can say or do make him like you or respect you. He feeds on drama, and there isn't any drama if he just thanked you for your positive thoughts.
Positively speaking, just realize that you may have learned a good lesson. There are likable as well as dislikable people in any subdivision of humanity: (gender, race, religion, sexual preference, gender orientation, nationality, disability/non-disability, age, etc.). If your goal was to make an additional gay friend (under the bad assumption that you probably don't already have many), I'm sure there are likable gay people out there that would appreciate your enlightened views.
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Perhaps that's because in real life, face to face, you don't talk to people in the same way that you have in here.
Perhaps those people aren't aware that you are prejudiced against straights.
Regardless of what your original intent or message was supposed to be on this board, the only thing that has come through loud and clear is your prejudice and disdain toward straight people.
And that has pushed whatever message you intended to make far into the background. You've cut off your nose to spite your face.
It seems to me that you are just as violently anti-straight as Phred is anti-gay.
If this is not the case, then please stop ragging on straight people. Just because people are straight doesn't mean they don't know or care about the suffering and struggles that you've gone through.
Many straight people have loved ones that are gay, and are definitely on YOUR side about rights being granted for all.
It seems foolish to attempt to alienate people who agree with you.
planetwax (anonymous) says…
If people want to *do* something about Fred, start having fun with him. Get bands to follow him around that sing and play "Phelps songs" and get organized enough to follow his "angels" and create signs that preach peace with Fred. Seems to me he would get a little tired of it after awhile. Be clever and take the emotions out of it. Practice peace and tolerance...and let's bring all of our soldiers back home, where they belong.