Portland, Maine — Pupils at a city middle school will be able to get birth control pills and patches at their student health center after the local school board approved the proposal Wednesday evening.
The plan, offered by city health officials, makes King Middle School the first middle school in Maine to make a full range of contraception available to students in grades six through eight, according to the state Department of Health and Human Services.
There are no national figures on how many middle schools, where most students range in age from 11 to 13, provide such services.
"It's very rare that middle schools do this," said Divya Mohan, a spokeswoman for the National Assembly on School-Based Health Care.
The Portland School Committee voted 5-2 for the measure.
Opponents cited religious and health objections.
Diane Miller said she felt the plan was against religion and against God. Another opponent, Peter Allen, said he felt it violated the rights of parents and puts students at risk of cancer because of hormones in the pill.
A supporter, Richard Verrier, said it's not enough to depend on parents to protect their children because there may be students who can't discuss things with their parents.
Condoms have been available since 2002 to King students who have parental permission to be treated at its student health center.
Students treated at the centers must first get written parental permission, but under state law such treatment is confidential, and students decide for themselves whether to tell their parents about the services they receive.
Comments
SettingTheRecordStraight 5 years, 7 months ago
Can anyone defend this?
Ragingbear 5 years, 7 months ago
When I was in school. There were 21 7th graders, 18 6th graders, and 9 5th graders who were pregnant. Studies indicate that kids are having sex as early as 3rd and 4th grade. Unmonitored Internet access pretty much takes all of the mystery away from it, so it's not like they have to "figure it out" like we did growing up.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
75x55, go back and read my string of posts, starting @ 3:01pm. I listed three "safety nets."
What's the first thing I listed, "Safety Net #1?" I know others here can read, what about you?
Then, how's your reading comprehension???
--Ag
erod0723 5 years, 7 months ago
Diane Miller said she felt the plan was against religion and against God. Another opponent, Peter Allen, said he felt it violated the rights of parents and puts students at risk of cancer because of hormones in the pill.
Does the bible actually say anything about contraceptives? Also, the birth control pill has been one of the most widely studied drugs in history. Its efficacy and safety have been demonstrated through hundreds of studies and clinical trials.
Haiku_Cuckoo 5 years, 7 months ago
Does the bible actually say anything about contraceptives? Also, the birth control pill has been one of the most widely studied drugs in history. Its efficacy and safety have been demonstrated through hundreds of studies and clinical trials.
Bible doesn't say anything, but she may be Catholic because their doctrine opposes birth control. The pill may be safe, but I don't like the idea of handing it out to 12 year old girls.
Bubbles 5 years, 7 months ago
Now teachers can proceed without fear of embarrassing consequences..
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
"Its efficacy and safety have been demonstrated through hundreds of studies and clinical trials."
With 11, 12 and 13 year olds? Given drugs without parental notification or approval?
Most schools in the country won't allow a single aspirin to be given to a child this age without parental approval.
This is just the sort of thing that really gives credence to Mark Twain's observation about 'the school board'.
daddax98 5 years, 7 months ago
I would say that I am pro choice but........wtf
waydownsouth 5 years, 7 months ago
The only problem i see with this is the students 11 through 13 not informing parents about treatment. That is still your child and their health is your business. The parents should be fully informed if something medically should go wrong the parents won't have a shock. I don't like it but i see the need in this day in age.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
b3 (Anonymous) says:
This is sick, what has our country become?
"Aware."
1 state out of 50, at least...
Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org http://www.americanplan.org
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
If the families/communities have failed at a level which requires the dissemination of contraceptives to Middle Schoolers, then they-and the kids-will fail at this level, too.
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
"The only problem i see with this is the students 11 through 13 not informing parents about treatment."
You must have meant "the school" and not "the students 11 through 13" - since the school is the one that would be providing the "treatment".
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
SettingTheRecordStraight (Anonymous) says:
"Can anyone defend this?"
I've defended it dozens of times in the past, and I'll do so, again.
Outlawing abortion at any level--municipal, state, or federal--will ultimately prove to be ineffective. The abortion trade will simply be driven to other areas. Tour buses will offer "medical tour packages" that will take women over the Canadian and Mexican borders to have abortions. Or maybe some rich doctors will pony up the money for a small yacht or cruise ship... load it up, cruise out into international waters... and come back to shore a few days later. And then, of course, there's the old favorite, the "back alley" approach... mail-order concoctions of all times, "herbal remedies" forgotten in the 19th century will return to the back pages of "Rolling Stone" magazine.
The only truly effective way to reduce abortions (and I mean "reduce" [realistic and logical], not "eliminate" [unrealistic and illogical]) is to reduce the number of women who need abortions.
Following that line of thought... pre-pubescent girls and older women who have been through menopause generally don't seek out abortions. Most doctors would agree that the women who seek out abortions are exclusively of "childbearing age." These same doctors would probably also agree that the women of childbearing age who seek out abortions... do so because they are pregnant. Women of childbearing age who are not pregnant, generally do not seek out abortions.
It is also my understanding that abortions generally terminate pregnancies. Women who are pregnant, and want to stay pregnant... generally do not seek out abortions.
Therefore... I hope we can all agree on the following:
Most, if not all, of the women who seek abortions, are of childbearing age, and are pregnant.
Agreed?
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Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
To my knowledge... there are currently no effective means of keeping a pre-pubescent girl "young" for a longer amount of time; that is, to stave off puberty, maturity. Likewise, there are currently no effective means of hastening a woman's advancement into menopause, ending her "childbearing years." So, women have no control over this, and neither do their partners (male or female). So... maybe we can also agree on the following:
Women of childbearing age that do not wish to risk getting pregnant, should probably abstain from sexual activity. If they can't or won't abstain from sexual activity, they should probably employ some means of birth control, and/or insist that their male partners employ some means of birth control.
Why? Well, I suppose that we can agree...
If we can reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, we will reduce the need for abortion providers and methods of all kinds.
I feel the best way to accomplish this reduction of unwanted pregnancies is through a series of "safety nets." No single solution works for everyone; there is no "one-size-fits-all" cure. So, I would propose the following:
SAFETY NET #1--ABSTENTION: Abstaining from sexual activity is the only, truly 100% effective way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Abstention should be promoted not only to girls, but boys as well. There are a myriad of reasons, lessons, ideas etc. that can be taught and promoted to our young people, when it comes to abstaining from sex; many of these reasons and ideas are secular, non-religious. It should be very easy to promote abstention in our public schools, without relying on one religious doctrine or another. Religious and/or spiritual reasons for abstention can be taught in private schools, churches, synagogues and other religious gathering places... and of course, the private home.
I think it's important to realize that we must also be VERY CLEAR about what we are recommending these folks abstain FROM. As tough as it might be for some of the more "uptight" parents, you will have to address things such as: oral sex... mutual masturbation or "heavy petting"... same-sex relationships... and even anal sex. All of these things carry risks with them ("disease" being just one of them) and yet provide little or no opportunities for unwanted pregnancies. Agreed?
For some youngsters, teaching and promoting sexual abstention will be enough; for others, it will not. So for those youngersters, we need...
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Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
SAFETY NET #2--BIRTH CONTROL: Some youngsters--and adults, as well--choose to engage in sexual activity for reasons other than procreation. If these people employ some means of birth control it will reduce their risk of unwanted pregnancy... and in turn, reduce the risk that somebody will need an abortion. So, logically, ensuring that these folks have access to birth control, and know how to use it properly, will reduce the number of women seeking out abortions.
I think it is important that condoms be available in our public schools, through the school nurse or nurse practitioner. I don't think this needs to be promoted--there's no need for the nurse to keep a bucket of condoms outside her office door. We're talking about schoolkids here; if only three or four kids are handed a condom by the school nurse during the first day of the school year, the entire student body will be spreading the news over lunch that same day. I also think a way should be devised to bring parents into the discussion. Maybe a discreet email or phone call from the school nurse?
In any case, regular use of birth control, by those that choose not to abstain from sexual activity, will reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Sadly, no method of birth control is 100% effective, which makes it wise to have available...
SAFETY NET #3--RU-486 aka The 'Morning-After' Pill: Condoms break. Women/girls may forget to take their birth control pills. And sometimes, people just forget.
RU-486, "Plan B," whatever you choose to call it... provides a relatively safe, quick, and easy way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. It's just as safe--if not safer--than Viagra.
People have tried all sorts of things to put George Tiller out of business--most of them legal, a few of them were illegal and even immoral. The only strategy that's never been tried is eliminating his market, his customer base. Cut into that heavily enough, and he'll find something more lucrative to do.
I've just given you three great ways to do that! :)
Agnostick agnostick@excite.com
RETICENT_IRREVERENT 5 years, 7 months ago
11-13 year old girls still have cooties. These 11-13 year old girls would never get "the pill" for birth control.
They get "the pill" to help with their acne.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
Agnostick says: "RU-486"
... not me... "Are you for eighty-six?"
eighty-six or 86 (Ä'tÄ-sÄ-ks') tr.v. eighty-sixed or 86ed, eighty-sixing or 86ing, eighty-sixes or 86*es Slang ... 1. To throw out; eject. 2. To throw away; discard.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:
"Why are the most staunch pro-lifers (b3, STRS) on here criticizing a measure that will undoubtedly reduce the need for abortions?
"Thus the case in point for why the anti-choice movement comes across as a bunch of busybodied, privacy-invading, grandstanding hypocrites. The truth is that they aren't against abortion, per say, but rather they are against sex in all forms. The fact that abortion superficially represents sex for pleasure is the real reason for the opposition."
I completely disagree, logicsound. I don't think they're against sex at all; in fact, I've always suspected that some sort of "deviant sexual gratification" is the main impetus for parkay, b3, STRS, SummersEve, Marion (aka gypsynatalie aka Nick Danger) and other crackpots that engage in this kind of dialogue here. Or, perhaps they're just attention-seeking trolls.
This whole crowd has developed a fetish for abortion clinics, pictures of aborted fetuses, pictures of blood etc.
But this is now where the rubber (pun!) hits the road for these folks. Condoms and other forms of birth control are a proven, effective means of reducing unwanted pregnancies. Will they do the job alone? No, I believe it's also important to promote abstention to the kids, as I said earlier.
--Ag
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
I do feel that if the school is going to hand out any sort of drug-based birth control to a youngster (pills, or a patch), then if not contacting the parents, they should at least contact the child's primary care physician or family doctor, to see if there might be something like a kidney or liver situation, or some other health issue that might make them "at risk" for this kind of drug.
This consultation can probably be done without parents being informed.
--Ag
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
Geez, Ag, the thought of eleven-to-thirteen-year-old girls on birth control seems to have really set you off.
,:-)
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
"11-13 year old girls still have cooties."
Ah, cooties... I really miss the "cootie" girls....
BrianR 5 years, 7 months ago
This policy arose of the reality that these kids are sexually active. People whine about babies having babies then whine about birth control; abstinence doesn't work and will never work. You can't have it both ways.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
What's next... spay and neuter?
workin2hard 5 years, 7 months ago
This is stupid. Most woman don't take their birth control correctly and get pregnant and wonder why. Now without parents knowledge they are supposed to take these on their own? Are you kidding me? These are just children who need their parents to get them up for school. How are they going to take the pill the same time every day without missing a dose. Yeah right watch the abortion rate go up there. And whose fault will that be?
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
"without parents being informed."
What is this obsession with not informing parents? It sounds like a looped recording of a child molester.
Curious that in the next breath, the very same people who are so obsessed with keeping vital information about the health and welfare of their children from the parents, will be the first to point at the parents of a child and blame them for 'not being involved enough with their kids' if something 'goes wrong'.
Rampant idiotic hypocrisy.
LS04 - you almost nailed it on the head, except you had to (apparently, reflexively) take the conclusion to the bizarre extreme("against sex in all forms"). The problem (as Agno consistently misses) is not 'birth control' and 'pregnancies' - these are the symptoms of the problem. The problem is the unqualified acceptance of sexual activity involving minors outside of any context other than mere pleasure. This is a trivialization of sex, which will have tremendous negative consequences, especially for the emotional well-being of these children (and that's who we're discussing here - children).
Confrontation 5 years, 7 months ago
I agree, ThatGirl. Workin2hard has no clue. A whole lot of the women who get pregnant while on birth control were trying to get pregnant, but they use the pill's failure rate as an excuse. I've seen it multiple times. Also, girls are reaching puberty at much younger ages, so this school's decision makes sense. Either prevent the pregnancy now (because even the conservative's child is doing the deed), or pay for school-funded daycare later on. Parents aren't talking to their kids, so someone has to step up and prevent another unnecessary pregnancy and an unwanted (yes, unwanted!) child.
not_dolph 5 years, 7 months ago
Ragingbear - what school did you go to? I know you can't answer that, but I have a hard time believing your figures.
RETICENT_IRREVERENT 5 years, 7 months ago
I blame Al Gore for inventing the internet.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
Sorta tangential, eh, RETICENT?
workin2hard 5 years, 7 months ago
Women who use birth control may think they don't need to worry about failure of their contraceptive. But consider this, fifty-three percent of unplanned pregnancies occur in women who are using birth control. When considering a certain type of birth control most women often base their birth control choice on published success/ failure rates. However, these rates are based on "perfect use" - that means the birth control is used exactly as it should be during every act of sexual intercourse
http://www.birthcontrolbuzz.com/blog/2006/07/why-does-birth-control-fail.html
With perfect use, the birth control pill can be as much as 99% effective. However, perfect use means remembering to take the Pill everyday at the same time and to be in good health, under the age of 35 and a nonsmoker. With typical use, the average failure rate is between 3 and 13% per year, depending on the type of pill you are taking.
Certain factors can decrease the efficiency of the contraceptive pill, though. These factors include:
Taking antibiotics Taking certain medications, include oral vaginal infection medication, certain anti-seizure drugs and certain HIV drugs Having diarrhea or vomiting Taking St. John's Wort
http://www.epigee.org/guide/pill.html
So all those perfect women that you people know that got pregnant while on the pill were all part of that 1%. WOW the entire 1% lives around you people. Wonder if there is a statistic on that.
RETICENT_IRREVERENT 5 years, 7 months ago
I was shooting for secantial...
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
In that case, I recantial.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
"Anyone that is going to allow their kid to swallow any type of pill without their knowledge is nuts!"
Many of us are finding this a hard pill to swallow.
RETICENT_IRREVERENT 5 years, 7 months ago
"Anyone that is going to allow their kid to swallow any type of pill without their knowledge is nuts!" - offtotheright
So your down with norplant?
workin2hard 5 years, 7 months ago
Teenagers, women who are overweight as well as women who have hard capsules rather than soft ones are more likely to have Norplant fail for them. Norplant is no longer available in many countries, including the United States, due to the severity of side effects experienced by some women.
http://www.epigee.org/guide/norplant.html
Thats not going to work as well.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
Neitheranimal norplant will remedy this situation.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
offtotheright (Anonymous) says:
"Might as well just snip all the jr high boys as well."
You get credit for grazing the ball on your third strike.
It does make one wonder why there are--what, a dozen different birth control options for women?
Men? Condom.
And for the later years, five or six different formulations of "boner pills" to choose from.
What was that you said about "trivialization," 75x55?
--Ag
Magpie 5 years, 7 months ago
I'm all for preventing unwanted pregnancies, but the idea of some school nurse schmoe slapping a b.c. patch on a 6th grader really disturbs me. Hormone treatments can have serious side effects, and they can really affect a girl's mood! Furthermore, hormone treatments do not protect against STD's, but they can create an illusion of safe sex. Whoever is administering these drugs better be sure to supplement them with education.
I have so many questions about this: Does readily available birth control normalizes teen (or pre teen) sexual activity? Will these kids will feel that sex is compulsory before they are physically and emotionally ready for that kind of intimacy and responsibilty? Will more adults and older teens see them as fair game for conquest? AND: Why can't middle schoolers just chill out and wait until they've outgrown their training bras and Ninga Turtle undies before doing the deed?
Who is paying for this? Birth control isn't cheap.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
75x55 whines:
"The problem (as Agno consistently misses) is not 'birth control' and 'pregnancies' - these are the symptoms of the problem. The problem is the unqualified acceptance of sexual activity involving minors outside of any context other than mere pleasure. This is a trivialization of sex, which will have tremendous negative consequences, especially for the emotional well-being of these children (and that's who we're discussing here - children)."
Really, where and how do you get off on this total crap? Please tell me, because I don't see it.
You consistently choose to paint anything and everything with a mile-wide brush.
You consistently choose to walk through life on a tightrope (and insist that the rest of the world do the same), quaking in fear that one small step to either side leads to a "horrifying drop" down the slippery slope.
Try some soul-searching, for a change, and think about all of the trivialization that's going on. Think back to how it started. I dare you.
Really, I can't fathom what it is you want. Please, please, tell us all about this wonderful Utopian vision you have, where sex is a sacred rite that's only engaged in for the purpose of procreation. Where teenagers, shut-ins, the elderly and anyone else not in a God--sanctioned (sanctioned by your God, of course!) marriage has the miraculous ability to turn off their sexuality with all the ceremony and process of flipping a light switch.
"Trivializing?" Really?
I can only imagine that this "Utopia" of yours is a cross between Atwood's Republic of Gilead, and Gene Roddenberry's planet Vulcan.
"Put up," already.
Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org http://www.americanplan.org
farmersdaughter 5 years, 7 months ago
birth controls are a prescription....who is writing the prescription for these girls and who would ethically give them to an 11 - 13 year old girl with out the parent's permission?
farmersdaughter 5 years, 7 months ago
If that ever happens in my district we'll be home schooling too.....Right on DotsLines!
Sigmund 5 years, 7 months ago
I don't think all 11 year old girls should be give Flintstones(TM) Fruit Flavored Birth Control pills. Only the really HOT ones!
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
Curious that you would be so offended, Agno - and go off on the deep end with your 'mile-wide' brush to pretend my position is so extreme. You also attribute a great number of things that I have not directly said.
If I do believe in a God-centered morality, then I must naturally believe that that morality is a true one, therefore - I must naturally assume that anyone that would live by the 'rules' of that morality will have the most beneficial result of it, be they a 'believer' or not. So we can discuss the positives of a particular moral code (which is really what is being argued here) without debating the theological validity. If it works and is beneficial... Isn't that the core of a lot of what you try to argue, Agno?
Sex has been trivialized - your follow-up mentioning various 'male assistance' drugs is only another indication that this is the case - thanks for the additional example. Just how many other examples would you need? The more difficult question would be to ask in what way has sex NOT been trivialized in the past four or five decades.
The completely stupid concept that "they're going to do it anyway, so we just need to accept that" is one of the major roots of the problem. Certainly some number of teens (and horrifyingly, some younger) will no doubt become sexually active - that does not require everyone throw up their hands and 'give up' on all minors by default. That is truly a black-n-white, all-or-nothing standard of living that is unrealistic at best.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
"Four or five decades?" How about Japanese "comfort women" during WW II??
The Roaring Twenties?
And I'll drag out one of my favorites from Colonel Henry Blake--"Here's an oldie, but a goodie": 18th-19th centuries, plantation owners slipping out to the slave quarters in late evening for a taste of "dark meat?" Now, that was trivializing a lot of things, and you know it.
Again, you're typing a lot, but saying very little. Exactly how do you think sex should be regarded?
The difference between you and I is one of vision. My view (and the more realistic one, statistically-speaking) is that "Some of them are going to do it anyway, so we need to accept that, and protect them the best we can."
Your view, as I see it, is more like this: "We can't offer protection to the few that will 'do it,' because the moment we do, all of them will be doing it, every chance they get, with anyone and everyone they can." A girl is either a "virgin" or a "whore," in your eyes. Please please please, correct me if I'm wrong.
If condom availability is such the "license to thrill" that you claim it is, how do you explain the following:
"Five of the 134 students who visited King Middle School's health center last year admitted they were sexually active; in the last four years, Portland's three middle schools reported 17 pregnancies, not counting miscarriages or unreported pregnancies that ended in abortions."
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1673227,00.html
"If I do believe in a God-centered morality, then I must naturally believe that that morality is a true one, therefore - I must naturally assume that anyone that would live by the 'rules' of that morality will have the most beneficial result of it, be they a 'believer' or not."
You believe in a God-centered morality? Great! More power to you, if it works for you. And if you have/had any children, I hope it worked for them, as well.
But not everyone is going to believe as you do, not everyone will walk that same path.
You know, I made a reference to "MAS*H" a few moments ago, and I realize that you remind me a lot of Maj. Frank Burns. It was very, very common for Burns to throw a fit in the OR whenever the orderlies put a "non-American" on his table. He always said something like, "What's this? Colonel Blake, this is a heathen, Godless Commie! I'm not operating on him!!"
Try some compassion. If not for the heathen, Godless middle school kids... at least think of the "abortion mill victims" this could prevent.
--Ag
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
parkay, I'll "see" your Scotland... and "raise" you a Netherlands...
http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
You keep talking about the symptoms instead of the cause. You keep talking about 'birth control' as if it is the holy grail that will solve the problem. This concept of easy-to-obtain hand-out the freebie birth control devices strategy is going on 20 years or more now.
What is the great expected benefit? Where is the great achievement in reducing illegitimate/underage pregnancy and birth statistics?
The great result is... bagel, my friend - squat-o, nil, zip, nada. No improvement at all - just more of the same. One might conclude then that this o-so-wonderful-"solution" is a bust. Because the 'problem' is not the mechanics - it's in the control centers. The real source of the problem is not between the legs, but between the ears.
Since you seems to enjoy history so much, go and read up about the various 'morality societies' of the 18th century in England. Morality isn't that new or untested a concept.
Haiku_Cuckoo 5 years, 7 months ago
Haiku is the perfect example of why the neocons are failing so miserable today, they ignore any and all facts for whatever they feel like and could care less the real life results.
Why? Because I think it's crazy to hand out the pill to 11 year old girls? If they're going to do it that, they may as well make them available in Barbie Pez dispensers since that seems to be age appropriate. I prefer the method of having open dialogue between a parent and child. Also, I'm a registered Democrat.
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
Ok, agno - I guess I'm going to have to get a little ugly to get the point across. I can read, and what I read is the typical reactions of the 'American male' whose primary thought is to 'identify the problem, come up with solutions, and fix it - there, move on to the next item on the list'. You are a mechanic, using mechanical means to try and solve what is primarily a morality problem.
You use the word 'promote' prominently - "promote abstinance, and promote education, and when that doesn't work, provide assistance and birth control, and when that doesn't work, provide for easy abortions, et. al.
All these things you suggest have been going on for years now, with little to no real effect for the positive. Most people would see that result and determine that the samo-samo isn't going to yield a different result.
The one thing that is never mentioned, and if even hinted at draws scathing abuse, is that key missing piece of the puzzle, that has been purposefully removed from any discussion of the subject. It is the concept of morality - the knowledge to be able 'to do the right thing', which is a knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.
All the 'promotion' in the world is worthless if the person it is directed at cannot make reasoned judgments about the morality of their actions (right vs. wrong) and those actions' consequences. Indeed, in an environment where the factor of moral judgment is removed, the education or promotion of 'safety nets' will become instructional vs. informational.
BrianR 5 years, 7 months ago
"You are a mechanic, using mechanical means to try and solve what is primarily a morality problem."
A very mechanical statement. You just did exactly what you accused the accused of doing.
As I wrote elsewhere, biology trumps dogma every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
BR - how so? Do I provide a laundry list of 'actions' that are the 'safety nets' for achieving a solution?
The use of the word 'mechanic' is to try and get across that concept that the core problem is not primarily the instruction regarding the 'biology' of the "Part A, wrapped in material X and Z, is placed in Part B etc."
Your last sentence suggests that you are having difficulty overcoming that 'biology dogma' yourself. Have a great day, ya'll!
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
"Sometimes society has to pick up where parents fail."
And their failure being......what?
"children had been taught morality by their parents"
When was the last time anyone heard about today's society trying to teach 'morality', instead of trying to remove any trace of morality and it's attendant idea of judgment of right and wrong? If that is even brought up, you will inevitably hear the screams of those condemning the 'guilt trip being laid the kids' .
jonas 5 years, 7 months ago
"All these things you suggest have been going on for years now, with little to no real effect for the positive."
75X55: Can you definitively say that this is a greater problem today than at other points in the past? Do we have actual stats on unplanned pregnancy available before the most recent few decades? Would you consider the idea that it's equally possible that its simply more in the open now, as opposed to a sign of the degradation of our national morality?
BrianR 5 years, 7 months ago
No you invoked one of the most intangible things on the face of the earth, morality. That seems to have become the universal cop out.
"Your last sentence suggests that you are having difficulty overcoming that 'biology dogma' yourself."
That explains a lot about your lack of understanding.
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
Defender - I don't see the relevance, 'pledge ceremonies' don't have much to do with ingraining morality as much as with peer pressure. As some have hinted, morality does not necessarily need to be based on religious viewpoints.
jonas - we could go down the stats road, like so many do on these story blogs, but then of course, we'd have to argue about the validity of the researchers, their questions, etc., which becomes a huge exercise in "I don't want to believe you, so I'm not going to". However, if we're spending vast amounts of money and time resources on 'solutions', and we're still admit being faced with the huge problem - so, whatchu think the stats will likely show?
adriennerm 5 years, 7 months ago
Make condoms available, but not pills. Not all birthcontrol pills work for everyone. I had a serious reaction when I began taking Yasmin. Then I changed to Ortho Tricyclen and everything is fine. I would hate for an eleven year old to go through what I did on Yasmin
adriennerm 5 years, 7 months ago
let me clear up my statement. There is nothing wrong with Yasmin. My body didn't like something in Yasmin.
I would hate for an eleven to have a reaction to pills and the parents have to clue what's going on with the child
jonas 5 years, 7 months ago
75X55: In the problem of time, as I'm leaving, I'll shorten my response to simply and freely admitting that I just don't know.
Agnostick 5 years, 7 months ago
75x55 (Anonymous) says:
"When was the last time anyone heard about today's society trying to teach 'morality', instead of trying to remove any trace of morality and it's attendant idea of judgment of right and wrong? If that is even brought up, you will inevitably hear the screams of those condemning the 'guilt trip being laid the kids' ."
Well, if that's not shirking personal and parental responsibility... I don't know what is.
And, as usual, you ignore everything else that's been posted on this subject, and home in on the prurient aspects of condom usage.
Sad.
Here it is again:
safety net #1-abstention: Abstaining from sexual activity is the only, truly 100% effective way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Abstention should be promoted not only to girls, but boys as well. There are a myriad of reasons, lessons, ideas etc. that can be taught and promoted to our young people, when it comes to abstaining from sex; many of these reasons and ideas are secular, non-religious. It should be very easy to promote abstention in our public schools, without relying on one religious doctrine or another. Religious and/or spiritual reasons for abstention can be taught in private schools, churches, synagogues and other religious gathering places: and of course, the private home.
Get that? "The private home."
Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org http://www.americanplan.org
merrill 5 years, 7 months ago
Now that we the females under control what about the guys?
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
"Biology trumps dogma every day so any answers that recommend fear, punishment, morality, church, etc. are disqualified."
(Why is it that morality so consistently is tied to religious dogma in so many people's minds?)
Fundamentally, morality springs from the same nervous system which produces the orgasm. Pleasure and pain. (No loss no gain.)
It is human vulnerability which gives rise to morality-the experience of pain (in the broadest sense of the term), the generalization of this experience to others, and the recognition that one's actions can create consequences for others, both immediate and long-term. Beyond this, there is the emergence and development of empathy, crucial in those situations where experience cannot directly be shared (e.g., those involving gender-specific vulnerabilities and consequences.)
If we have produced an environment which, through earlier and broader exposure, places young people at risk for highly consequential behavior, then it falls upon us to temper (e.g.) a potentially unbridled hedonism with equal-even exceptional-attention to issues of morality. The nerve pathways serving sexual drive and satisfaction are immediate and salient; those which govern self-restraint (as opposed to dogmatic control) require greater attention and cultivation, in short, greater intervention on the parts of more mature individuals (parents, teachers) who ought to know better.
"t-r-a, You're thinking way too high on the hierarchy of needs but mostly, you haven't written anything worthy of a response."
With respect to a hierarchy of needs, can one think too high? (Hopefully, what I've offered above is worthy of consideration, if not a response.)
... oops! wrong, but relevant, forum.
75x55 5 years, 7 months ago
You missed it entirely, agno That particular observation was directed at ThatGirl's last sentence, "Sometimes society has to pick up where parents fail."
Today's society, which abhors the idea of moral judgment, is not going to be able to do this.
"if that's not shirking personal and parental responsibility"
Duh. That's the point - along with the fact that today's society ain't going to do it either.
BrianR 5 years, 7 months ago
"Why is it that morality so consistently is tied to religious dogma in so many people's minds?"
That has been my question for a long time.
I'm sorry, after reading your thoughts on this, you are too low on the learning curve and I don't have time to go through all this. g'day.
tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago
"I'm sorry, after reading your thoughts on this, you are too low on the learning curve and I don't have time to go through all this. g'day."
I trust that you'll find time during your busy day to replenish the condom and birth control pill dispensers...?
Oh, and now that I see you all the way up there at the top of the learning curve, beware... just a few steps ahead... that downslope is a doozy!
bluecollar2 5 years, 7 months ago
Wow, I'm surprised that we are faced with such a discussion format. Who is the nut case that came up with this idea? They must hate women. Something from childhood, I recon.
Correct me if wrong, please, oh please! Aren't women supposed to discontinue use of the pill after like 7 years? At least a 1 year break? Highly recommended not to go back on them after that break? Doesn't the risk of cervical and breast cancers increase after so many years of use? Heck, maybe when they're at that really awkward-teenage-cantquitthinkinaboutguys-stage, it will be time for them to take their "break" from the pill. Cool, then we will still have babies raising babies.
Hey, I got an idea...Let's just add Depo-Provera to the immunization requirements for girls entering pre-school. Man, why didn't I think of this years ago? The school nurse can just continue shooting up our baby girls every three months, as required. Let's introduce estrogen and progesterone to their little veins. Let's get them on a roller coaster ride, A.S.A.P.!!!! Wasn't it the schools' across our Nation the ones that started preaching to the students that a swat across the butt was child abuse? Then the wild ones started charging their own parents with child abuse? Isn't this why our children are so out of hand? Kids in the street ignoring traffic, rude kids in the grocery stores. When I was growing up, my parents would have had me pick the switch if they found out I had walked through someones yard "just because"! There had better have been a reason, and a good one, at that!! Should I have not pulled my bicycle to the side of the road and stopped because a car was coming and they heard about it, ditto. Go get a switch. (I do not condone child abuse, but, correcting a child is necessary. Some children you glare at, and they will straighten up. The next group of kids you can warn your going to spank, and they straighten up. The other group of children you have tospank. Message gets through [Like I was!].)
So, yeah, lets give our baby girls birth control. Let them know they can fool around with any boy they want. Let's teach 'em early in life that they will get pregnant if they forget their pill, which they are so absent mind during puberty, that they will. LET US USE THEM AS LAB RATS. MAYBE THEY WILL GROW UP TO BE 7'5" TALL, AND HAVE BEARDS TO THEIR BELLY BUTTON. They would save money in the long run... no need to get a piercing!
srj 5 years, 7 months ago
Are we so behind in middle america that east coast schools can do this, but Topeka High gives out condoms and all heck breaks loose?
bluecollar2 5 years, 7 months ago
Dots, good for you, and don't ever forget that you will say no.
I think we a citizens, should just start beating the parents when their child is out of hand. I don't mean when the kid has bags under their eyes from carpooling and being drug all over the country side, mall to mall. You can watch facial and body expressions to know when a child is worn out, even though they are running 5 directions at once. But when the parent has the nerve to sit there and let society raise the child for them. You can figure out most households in 5 minutes when you sit down to what you'll think is going to be a nice night out. Loud mom, has to brag about how wild the kids are and how hard she worked that day. Real activities of the day: kids wake before mom, kids fed themselves breakfast, kids turn on TV. Loud TV wakes mom, mom takes over TV, mom talks on phone and watches TV. Nothing on now at 1pm, goes to take shower, screams at kids on way because they want lunch. Blah, blah.
I hope this whole operation is shut down in Portland. I really am concerned for the health and welfare of these girls. As adults, women who have health insurance can't get the proper care they need with female issues. And these are women who weren't subjected to a coctail of hormones until they were in their 20's! How is this going to be in any way healthy for these children. We all know the majority of them wont have regular doctor visits.
As someone earlier asked, who will pay for this? It's started in one state, sure to sweep the nation in a matter of a few years. Kansas can't keep up with the un-insured or the under-insured as it stands.
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