Archive for Saturday, October 13, 2007

Faith Forum: Why did Jesus have to die, according to Christians?

October 13, 2007


Christ's death bridged aspects of God's nature

Darrell Brazell, pastor, New Hope Fellowship, 1449 Kasold Drive:

Jesus' death was necessary to bridge two seemingly opposite, yet fundamental aspects of God's nature: his love and his holiness. God's love constantly moves him to seek relationships. God's holy justice demands payment for sin.

A holy and just God cannot simply ignore sin any more than a righteous judge can ignore crimes against the innocent. The part of each of us that demands just punishment for someone who harms a child comes from the fact that we are created in God's image and therefore have an innate sense of justice.

Every sin (whether great or small in our eyes) is an even greater offense to God's holy justice than child abuse is to ours. God doesn't judge on a curve but instead has a holy standard of perfection.

If this were the end of the story, we would be without hope. However, the very God who demands payment for sin also provides that payment through the death of his son, Jesus Christ. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (II Corinthians 5:21).

God the Father placed the sin of all mankind upon his son, who in turn paid the ultimate price through his sacrificial death. That payment appeases God's justice, allowing him to receive all who accept that payment with open arms.

Through the death of Jesus, God is forever done with the sin of all who accept his grace. Jesus' death redeems us and empowers us to approach a Holy God as dearly loved children who have been made perfect by his cleansing blood.

- Send e-mail to Darrell Brazell at

Every person sins and needs a savior

The Rev. Dan Nicholson, pastor, Lawrence Christian Center, 416 Lincoln St.:

According to the writings of the Holy Bible and the teachings of the Christian faith, Jesus Christ had to die in order to redeem all mankind from its sins.

Since the beginning of creation and the original sin of Adam and Eve, all mankind is born with a sinful, fallen nature - sometimes called an "Adamic nature" or "original sin." Man is in no way able to save himself. It is absolutely impossible and futile to think that one can "earn" his way to heaven or be "good enough" to go to heaven. Every man born of woman is a sinner and in need of a savior.

God, in his great mercy, knew that man could not redeem himself. So he sent his only son, Jesus Christ, because he had the nature of his Heavenly Father.

In dying on the cross, Jesus Christ became the only sacrifice that God would accept for the sins of the human race. According to the Bible, believing in Jesus Christ, being born again of the Holy Spirit and accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior is the only way any human being can go to heaven.

Jesus himself said in the Gospel of John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth and the life: No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." This statement is confirmed by the Apostle Peter in the Book of Acts 4:12: "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

I realize these statements might be offensive to some and certainly not "politically correct," but they are "biblically correct!"

- Send e-mail to Dan Nicholson at


GretchenJP 10 years, 4 months ago

Those crazy Christians. Stay offa my lawn!

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

Why did Jesus have to die? He didn't have to, he volunteered. I guess you could say he volunteered so that God wouldn't renige spelling? on his promise to Noah that he would never punish the human race for being wicked by doing another mass extinction and go all Great Flood on us again.

badger 10 years, 5 months ago

Jesus didn't have to die. That's the point of the story. He chose to.

It's a moral object lesson about self-sacrifice and choosing Other over Self. It was never fated to be. In the Christian mythos, he always had the option to walk away from that life, to be something else, to take the easy way out. That he didn't is what people are supposed to be thinking about, and asking themselves if they can love their fellow man that much.

Most can't.

Ragingbear 10 years, 5 months ago

I always love how they answer that it was the only way that our sins can be forgiven and people dwell in the presence of god. Of course, one would think that an omnipotent being would be able to find another way, or just do what humans are capable of and saying "I forgive you.". Like God is bound by some absolute laws of the cosmos, or perhaps he is bound by an even higher being.

Yes. Your Christian "god" is merely a small meaty morsel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All behold his noodly appendage!

Ragingbear 10 years, 5 months ago

Ah... The classic "Accept my love or be utterly destroyed" answer.

Still failed to answer my question as to why Jesus had to die. Skirting around it and saying "He chose to die, but was not required" seems to indicate that he chose to martyr himself. Why would that be needed? Once again, why would any of this be necessary?

DonnieDarko 10 years, 5 months ago

Maybe he wouldn't have had to die if someone had just had a ladder and a pair of pliers.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"God's love constantly moves him to seek relationships."

Yeah, apparently he's registered at and eHarmony.

chungasrevenge 10 years, 5 months ago

"the very God who demands payment for sin also provides that payment through the death of his son, Jesus Christ. "

**he pays the debt owed to himself?

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (II Corinthians 5:21).

**Jesus, who was without sin, was made into sin. This made the real sinners sinless.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"You know, as I read back through the article, I'm not so sure that L. Ron was all that far out there."

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"... I'm not so sure that L. Ron was all that far out there."

N. Ron, however, clearly out of bounds.

thebigspoon 10 years, 5 months ago

Marion, it must be terribly lonely in your version of the world. I feel deeply sorry for you and your empty, hopeless future.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"... it must be terribly lonely in your version of the world. I feel deeply sorry for you and your empty, hopeless future."

Wouldn't modern-day, organized religions be a testament to the empty, hopeless present of the (so-called) Christian version of the world?

heysoos 10 years, 5 months ago

Hi told me you'd be having this argument.

He also told me who is right and who is wrong. Wouldn't you all like to know? You see, even though I've never actually met him, I get these voices in my head once in a while, telling me that mom got knocked up without doing the nasty...frankly, I ain't buying it, but that's what he...

Ooops, looks like it's time for my meds. And we only get internet access here at Osawatomie from noon to 1.

heysoos 10 years, 5 months ago

And on a more serious note, I'm with Marion. Which of these contains the 144,000?

From a statistical perspective, even if I DID repent and beg forgiveness from the FSM, there are at least 144,000,000 people that are still more deserving than me. Even if I did believe in all your voodoo, I still wouldn't be on the list. I don't believe in such a list, but if I did then I would accept my fate and live as I pleased...which, by the way doesn't include any misogyny, stoning of children, subservience of any social class or get the picture.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"From a statistical perspective, even if I DID repent and beg forgiveness from the FSM, there are at least 144,000,000 people that are still more deserving than me."

Reportedly, Heaven is a very accommodating venue... that is, if you don't mind a wing seat.

( Unfortunately, though, Hell even more so. )

storm 10 years, 5 months ago

Jesus died because Judas turned him in.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

As the tale goes, someone had to. Poor Judas... just another unwitting player in GOD's divine comedy.

Confrontation 10 years, 5 months ago

Poor Marion. I'm right there with you. We are incredibly lonely because we don't belong to a Church. We don't have to "save face" by showing up at Sunday's service. We can't volunteer at the Church rummage sale. We can't even get extra credit for attending the Xmas service. We can't join a religious-based men's or women's church group, therefor we can't sit around and read the same book week after week, as we twist it with our own interpretation. Well, we must be really lonely :)

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

Marion (Marion Lynn) says:

...obviously mentally ill , mysogynist, and sexually perverted, "prophets"; complete with their complicated and guilt-ridden notions of sin and "redemption".

then Marion says . . . mirror, mirror on the wall . . .

You seem to be feeling extraordinarily ornery today, Marion :)

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

How late did you stay up thinking of yet another long-winded, meaningless, self-righteous post, parkay? 2am? 3?

beatrice 10 years, 5 months ago

He "had" to die because he got crucified. When you get crucified and left to die, you pretty much "have" to die -- the human body simply won't put up with such abuse.

That seems too obvious. Maybe I'm missing the point of the question.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

parkay says: "If you don't know Him - you need to."

Don't get me wrong, Jesus and I are tight. I just can't seem to figure out what organized religion has to do with what Jesus said, apart, that is, from its relative cluelessness about God and spirituality.

( ... oh, and that "den of thieves" thang. )

manyblessings 10 years, 5 months ago

Jesus chose to die so we wouldn't have to face judgement for OUR sins. We all have sinned and deserve punishment, but we don't have to suffer because Jesus suffered for us. He took all our burdens upon himself, enabling us to be free of them. Despite our wicked hearts, God loved us so much that He was willing to make himself a lowly human being and to come and die in order that we might have eternal life in Heaven with him. He died and resurrected in order to conquer death and Hell and show us that we can too if we only trust in Him.

Dawn Wilson 10 years, 5 months ago

Raging Bear: There is a Bible scripture that states...."don't cast your pearl before swine" and another "the natural mind does not understand (comprehend) the things of the spirit, for they are spiritually discerned". It seems to me that you have no desire to understand but would rather spend time making fun of the very idea of God. Not that I would call you a pig, but trying to discuss this topic with someone like you tends to be a waste of time for any Christian. If what I have stated isn't true, consider this: If Christians believe that God is real, the Bible is true and Christ's sacrifice was necessary...and it turns out not be true, what have Christians lost? They end up no different from you. If, on the other hand, the Bible is correct that faith in and salvation from Christ is essential and the only way to receive eternal life, what have people such as yourself lost? I believe that would be, eternal life. You would instead reap eternal damnation and hell fire. It doesn't matter whether a person believes in (or agrees with) the law of gravity or a spiritual law. They both work...consistently and fully.

Sharon Roullins 10 years, 5 months ago

I wonder what the concensus will be on judgement day? One thing for sure, you won't need to hire a lawyer; you'll get to represent yourself. I am so thankful that God gave us the choice to worship Him or not and while He most certainly doesn't need anyone to argue or debate His point, I am certain we will find out the answer to the original question..................Why did Jesus have to die, according to Christians? I really don't think the person that asked that question sought a sincere answer, just wanted to stir up trouble and chaos in their understanding of why/how/when did life really begin and how come man couldn't be in charge of this world.

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

dialupandy I question your intelligence when you take a message board full of anonymous posters (from all over the state) as a valid cross-section of what Lawrence is really like. It's an online community, not the Lawrence community. Big difference.

This reminds me of a story I heard not too long ago. Two guys are at a bar. One guy says to the other: "If God and the Angel of Death walked into this bar, and you only had enough money to buy a drink for one, who would you buy a drink for?" The second guy thinks about it for a moment carefully and then replies, "I'd buy a drink for Death." "Why Death and not God?" "Because Death treats all people equally, he takes everybody, regardless of their religion, creed, or lack thereof."

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"Wow:some of the strong absolute hatred that comes out of some of your keyboards."

"Jesus chose to die so we wouldn't have to face judgement for OUR sins."

"I wonder what the concensus will be on judgement day?"

Hmm... perceived persecution, absolution, and more than a suggestion of retribution. What a self-righteous and (thinly veiled) hateful creature, the modern-day "Christian."

Dawn Wilson 10 years, 5 months ago


The Bible consists of God's spiritual law and it is a provable, tangible thing. Sure..there are plenty of people who chose not to believe it's validity, (we all are given freedom to believe and live what we chose) but that does not make spiritual law insignificant or change it in any way.

As I conveyed in my original post, if that is not true, my life has been fulfilled by an (*imagined) relationship with Jesus Christ, and I have lost nothing, but gained the peace that surpasses all understanding...which non-believers are searching for.

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

"The Bible consists of God's spiritual law and it is a provable, tangible thing."

No, it's not provable or tangible. If believing in something like a religion or prophet figure is what it takes to get you through your day, fine. I'm happy for you. Just leave the law and other people's rights out of it.

Rationalanimal 10 years, 5 months ago

All things denote God's existence. Tell me you honestly believe the incalcuable odds that every condition in our galaxy and universe making life possible occured randomly and you have just ceded that faith in God is the more rational position.

Speakout 10 years, 5 months ago

I guess I don't get it. I mean, for centuries all of the prophets from Adam to the end, all stated clearly that God was one. He says in the first of the ten commandments that "I am the Lord, thy God, take no other gods besides me!"

So Jesus comes along and states the same thing to one and all and lo and behold, Paul decides Jesus is God's son! Where did he come up with that? think of the punishment of Paul for telling people that God has a son and one is equal to God!

Some people think that Jesus was a Prophet of God, he preached the oneness of God and was killed because the Pharisees couldn't handle the truth. Why would God, who is the creator of all things, want a son to share His power? Why would He, the greatest of all things, need Jesus. I believe that Jesus needed God as we all do and he stated clearly to believe in God and ONLY God.

Going back to what someone said, suppose Christians are wrong about Jesus and have offended God. God clearly told Moses that HE was One god and to not take anyone as His equal. Even after Jesus ascended to heaven, God said to Muhammad that Jesus was a messenger like him (Muhammad).

God is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth, there is no other god but God. He created all things and taught Adam their names. It is He who brings down the rain and makes the night to follow the day and the day to follow the night.

ksdivakat 10 years, 5 months ago

To those who believe, no explaination is necessary, to those who dont, no explaination will suffice. I dont understand why there is such the attack on christians? well actually I do, the bible says it will be like this and so you are proving those words to be true. Good luck and God bless all!!!

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

Divakat, the attack goes both ways. No one is "attacking Christians" anymore than some of them are attacking the U.S. Constitution and people of different beliefs.

gr 10 years, 5 months ago

"So Jesus comes along and states the same thing "

What if instead of saying the same thing, He just repeated what He said before? What if it was HE who was doing the speaking?

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

ksdivakat 10 years, 5 months ago

Tychoman....what have I said that has attacked the constitution?? And people of different beliefs?? I respect those people, thats the wonderful thing about living in the USA!! You can have different thoughts and beliefs and thats cool! Thats what makes the world go round, Ive never "attacked" anyone who differs in thoer beliefs, however, anytime the word christian is used on this forum there are all kinds of people who come out and attack, now if this were an article on radical muslims and the attack of the world trade center or even the great jihad.....well then there would be sympathizers on here for them because at least they didnt use the word christian!!!

BigDog 10 years, 5 months ago

Thank you ksdivakat! I couldn't agree more.

gr 10 years, 5 months ago


Satan said his way was better and God's way was bad. When he told Eve that she would not die, it could be implied that at least not as a "natural" result of eating the fruit. If she did die, it would be because God would kill her - 'Do it my way or you die!'.

Why was satan allowed to continue to exist after 'daring to question God'? If God was a 'Do it my way or you die!' type of God, that would be the time to dispose of the dissenter. It would serve as a good example for the rest of the angels that God was a 'Do it my way or you die!' type of God. Everyone would be obedient from then on - at least while God was watching....but, not in their heart/mind.

But, satan lived on, and so did Eve - at least for awhile. The universe awaited - who was right - God or satan? That's why Jesus had to die. Not as some sort of pagan type of appeasement. But as a demonstration for all. Jesus became sin - not just an individual's, but ALL sin. If God would kill or torture an individual for only his sin, then He would really be offended by Someone who took on all sin. Jesus did die. But how did He die? The Jews tortured Him. The Romans played a big part in His death. But He died before most would. Which was why no bone was broken.

Did God kill Him? Jesus felt forsaken, but didn't fear Him. He did fear the separation from Him. And that separation was what killed him. It was no angry God. Yes, Jesus died so we could be eternally saved, but it wasn't because of a penalty, punishment, or some arbitrary legal requirement. You could say it was a "price". The price of demonstrating the two forms of government rather than 'nipping it in the bud'. The price of separating yourself from God. Jesus' death was a demonstration of what God will do to those who do not wish to be with God. He will sadly give them over to their choices.

God was on trial for all those years. If Jesus didn't die, either the question in everyone's mind wouldn't be answered as to whether God's 'rules' could be obeyed, whether God was love, and what God would do to those who went against Him; or it would be answered to the negative. That Friday, eternal happiness for the Universe was in the balance. Jesus did choose to die, to experience separation from God and therefore answered and sealed that question. It was a done deal as He breathed His last. To bad his disciples hadn't been listening to Him previously or they would have rejoiced at his death.

For without His death, sin would last eternally. Someone would always be questioning God's government.

Tychoman 10 years, 5 months ago

Divakat, read my post more carefully. I wasn't saying you are doing all that, I meant some Christians in the President claiming to speak directly to God and advocating certain legislation because of "sin" and other evangelical Christians legislating Biblical dogma.

I hesitate to address your ridiculous and gratuitous use of 9/11, but here I go: You're wrong if you think people would defend the extremists responsible for the attacks simply because they were acting on their own religious beliefs.

Rationalanimal 10 years, 5 months ago


You make good points on the seeming dichotomy of faith and reason. Actually, the two are compatible. From the outset, I concur that one's views on the universe are all too often imposed on others. Let me explain the reconciliation of faith and reason. Firstly, all beliefs, aethism, monotheism, polytheism, etc, all require faith at a certain point. I think you'll at least agree that faith is a belief in things unseen or something similar. Christians and religion in general assert the existence of God, a god that is not physically manifest to mankind, or so it would appear. However, aethism requires just as much faith. For example, consider that aethism requires inductively that a god does not exist throughout the entire universe. Consider that inductive proposition for a moment. It requires that one positively, absolutely, conclusively can prove beyond a doubt that a god does not exist throughout all existence. A rather large and unknowing proposition wouldn't you agree. Also, consider deductive emperical science, the method used as the basis for establishing our belief of fact and knowledge. The root tenant of this system traces to the molecular structure, the building blocks of life. The atom, consisting of electron, protrons, and neutrons is the basic structure. However, consider that there are subelements, of subelements, of subelements, ad infinitum that we cannot see or test empirically. In other words, even empirical science at the basic level requires a leap of faith. Lastly, while Christians get tagged for believing in an irrational wizard of oz type God, it is most rational to assume that God is a perfected rational being. It is man that is irrational as to the ways of God, not the other way around. The grand architect of the universe according to Kant for lack of a better words. However, to say that man cannot have experiencial contact with God commits one to the same inductive fallacy as explained above. It is possible to experience a relation with God. In fact, the evidence of God in all things requires that man necessarily interacts with God constantly and at all times. It very well may be the case that the problem is that the interaction is common to the point it becomes mundane unless the personal relation progresses. As to your concerns about the Word, again, it is not the flaws of God that creates the problem, but the flaws of men. Again, cutting through the flaws of men goes to the personal experience that is possible. It is there Marion and one does not have to abandon reason to experience it.

Dawn Wilson 10 years, 5 months ago

I think you all are missing my point. It doesn't matter whether the Bible is validated. If God is real, His word is true and if it is revealed that He is not real and I have been deluded for close to 30 years, I haven't lost anything. If God did send his word in the form of what we call the Bible, then it is each man's choice to take it or leave it....just as anything else in this world.

christiansoldier 10 years, 4 months ago

Interesting discussion. A smattering of sincerely held statements from Christians and non-Christians, amidst purely derisive remarks, most of which seem to be posted by a "Marion".

Marion, you may never come to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Not all will. What drives you to ridicule folks who do believe? What bitterness fills you? I pray you find some peace - a peace that surpasses understanding.



P.S. - I leave you with some food for thought.

Romans 1:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

ndmoderate 10 years, 4 months ago


So we should all just hedge our bets by claiming Christianity? Your argument is: If you're wrong about Christianity, all is well. If you're right, then all is well for you because you will go to heaven.

You may get a couple of compulsive gamblers converted that way. As to others....I'm not sure that dangling the carrot of heaven is enough to bring people to Christianity.

GretchenJP 10 years, 4 months ago

notnowdear (Anonymous) says:

"I am so with! you on that. I am so sick of god-peddling! They are trespassing. I do not want them at my door."

You know what irritates me is the God email forwards I get. C'mon people... if God wanted His word spread via email he would have gotten a Dell.

igby 10 years, 4 months ago

Out of the night that covers me Black as the pit from pole to pole I think for whatever Gods may be For my unconqureable soul Out of the frail clutch of circumstance I have not winste nor cried aloud but under the blodgeoning of chance My head is bloody but unbowed.

igby 10 years, 4 months ago

thebcman: If religion is a cruch for people that can't handle reality, then in all fairness, drugs are a cruch for non-religious people that can't handle reality.

religion-drugs, religion-drugs, religion-drugs,

Which will it be?

igby 10 years, 4 months ago

So when you go to jail an finally get off drugs you get get religion, lol. People that can't handle reality, sheezs.

GretchenJP 10 years, 4 months ago

igby (Anonymous) says:

"thebcman: If religion is a cruch for people that can't handle reality, then in all fairness, drugs are a cruch for non-religious people that can't handle reality.

religion-drugs, religion-drugs, religion-drugs,

Which will it be?"

So you're assuming the bcman is a drug addict?

igby 10 years, 4 months ago

GretchenJP: No, not at all. If he or she thinks that reality is the issue regarding religion then the same argument could be made for drug users avioding reality by getting high all the time. So, to claim that people that are religious are using religion as a cruch rather than dealing with reality is just a weak argument. Drug users escaping reality is a much better example for the cruch theory. Nonetheless, if it makes you happy, praying or dopping, is both a form of self medititation, one legal and the others not.

christiansoldier 10 years, 4 months ago

Marion (Marion Lynn) says:

Christian Soldier:

The world will be a much better place when it throws off the bondage of ancient superstition, meaning, the tyranny of religion.

So, you blame the world's troubles on the fact that some people believe in things pertaining to religion? Is all religion tyrannical? Can you back up your premise at all?


not_dolph 10 years, 4 months ago

Sassy -

Don't worry about Marion and Co. You have done your part, now it's time to "shake the dust off your feet" and move to the next town. They have heard the Truth a bunch of times, but refuse to listen.

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