Archive for Thursday, October 4, 2007

Abortion opponents want clinic investigated

October 4, 2007

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— A coalition of abortion opponents wants a grand jury formed to investigate whether Planned Parenthood's Overland Park clinic is complying with state abortion laws.

The Life Is for Everyone (LIFE) coalition, which is circulating a petition, says it has reason to believe that Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri and its Comprehensive Health clinic in Overland Park might be violating the law.

"There's too much controversy surrounding Planned Parenthood at this point," said Troy Newman, president of anti-abortion group Operation Rescue. "I think an independent grand jury can get to the bottom of it."

A spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri deferred comment to the group's president, Peter Brownlie, who was out of town Wednesday and couldn't be reached.

In seeking the investigation, abortion foes are using a 1970 state law that allows the public to petition for a grand jury.

If convened, the grand jury would be the second in Johnson County this year. One that adjourned Tuesday was formed after a citizens group filed a petition calling for investigations of businesses believed to be promoting obscenity. That grand jury issued nearly 40 indictments, including four obscenity cases.

The grand jury that the LIFE coalition is calling for would investigate whether Planned Parenthood performs illegal late-term abortions, whether it fails to report child abuse and whether it takes part in the illegal trafficking of fetal tissue.

The coalition also wants the grand jury to determine whether Planned Parenthood provides "false information in order to induce government action or inaction," whether it fails to comply with parental consent requirements, whether it fails to enforce the required 24-hour waiting period before an abortion can be performed and whether it fails to follow the required standard of care in providing medical advice.

Newman, of Wichita, said the coalition believes it can collect the required 3,500 registered voter signatures in a few weeks. The petition has to be certified by the Johnson County elections office and approved by the county's district judges.

Tim Golba, spokesman for the coalition and former director of Kansans for Life, said the group is not accusing Planned Parenthood of any wrongdoing.

Kansas is one of only six states where a citizens petition can compel a county to convene a grand jury.

Comments

Ragingbear 10 years, 1 month ago

I guess the reasoning they use to believe that they are not in compliance with the law means that they just don't like what they do. Perhaps we should go out and heckle these protesters at their place of employment. Oh wait, that's right. They are all on welfare and spend all their spare time protesting instead of going to therapy and getting their medication. Well, except for that one person. Now that I said that there is one that is not like that, it's not slander. So there.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 1 month ago

"Kansas is one of only six states where a citizens petition can compel a county to convene a grand jury."

... and I've been in every one of 'em!

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

What's truly tragic is that our tax dollars fund part of PP's grisly business.

yourworstnightmare 10 years, 1 month ago

As Gomer Pyle, USMC, would say: "Surprise, surprise, surprise".

Now there was a true patriot.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

After taking a friend there once i would not be suprised at all. It was awful for her and the way she was treated by the staff was just wrong. Hearing her tell the story brings tears to my eyes. I hope they get shut down.

tvc 10 years, 1 month ago

Planned Parenthood is about more than abortions! If we want to reduce the number of abortions, we must stop attacking groups that provide birth control to woman. If we want to reduce STIs, then we must stop attacking and start educating!

Here is a link to their medical services provided: http://www.ppkm.org/health_services.asp

If people did research into these "pro-life" organizations, they would see the harm that they are doing not only in the US but internationally!

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

If only Planned Parenthood weren't a making millions off of the abortions they perform, you might have a legitimate case about their contraceptive services. There are plenty of organizations providing contraceptives that don't also kill children in the womb.

tvc 10 years, 1 month ago

Oh STRS, you mean like UNFPA. Don't worry the pro-lifers have attacked them as well. The pro-life organizations are very extreme and most of American's would not agree with their positions. They continue to put out false information!

http://www.unfpa.org/news/news.cfm?ID=58&Language=1

acg 10 years, 1 month ago

Right to lifers are generally religious folks and we all know religious folks are dangerous. They want to pass/amend laws that govern this entire nation based upon the teachings of whatever Church of the Gullible Moron or Our Lady of Perptual Sadness and Oppression that they attend. You can't reason with people like that. They don't know how to live and let live. They don't know how to go thru life as happy people that are coexisting with others that have differing viewpoints (case in point, every single idiotic religious war that has happened in the history of the world because some faction of people didn't believe in/agree with the other factions sky god.) The only thing the rest of us, those with brains, can do is make sure to vote and vote often. We need to let our political leaders know that we aren't going to stand for this nonsense anymore. If we don't, before we know it, the zealots are going to have taken over and then we're all screwed.

OH and P.S., I hate to break it to you men, but until you get a uterus, the abortion issue has nothing to do with you, so go away and leave women alone. Our gender has spent enough time being harrassed, governed to death and restricted by you men.

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

"Right to lifers are generally religious folks and we all know religious folks are dangerous. "

acg, that comment reveals how stupid and "intolerant" you are. It also reveals how stupid you are. And, even more so, how stupid you are.

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

"It is time to get rid of the petitioning law..."

Silence better than dissent, huh americops?

Haiku_Cuckoo 10 years, 1 month ago

We all know religious folks are dangerous.

I agree. I can't tell you how many times I've been assaulted by those dangerous Amish people. One guy even tried to run me over with his buggy.

And Buddhists? Don't even get me started!

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

ThatGirl,

Why not get your birth control and annual exam from a provider that doesn't pay for those services with the blood money they receive from abortion income?

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

For the year July 1, 2005, through June 30, 2006, Planned Parenthood received $345.1 million in clinic income, $305.3 million in taxpayer funding (outrageous) and $212.2 million in donations. Total income reached $902.8 million while total expenses came to $847.0 million, leaving a profit of $55.8 million. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/Annual_report.pdf

Pretty tidy profit for our nation's largest abortionist.

tvc 10 years, 1 month ago

STRS, great link! Abortion accounted for 3%! Wow, 97% of their services have NOTHING to do with abortions!!!

ndmoderate 10 years, 1 month ago

Ah, but don't forget that (insert your deity of choice here) is the world's most prolific abortionist. One in three pregnancies end in miscarriage.

acg 10 years, 1 month ago

And why is abortion a question of when an individual's life begins Das? Is it because science is confused about it?

Candice Chandler 10 years, 1 month ago

Can I sign a petition to stop the petitioners? Can I sign a petition SUPPORTING Planned Parenthood? Hey, Pro-Lifers or Anti-Abortioners, whatever you want to call yourselves, how about you focus all your energy, morals, and judgements on what's really important? Our poor, our homeless, our unemployed, maybe even our national deficit? Jeesh! There are so many more important and urgent issues to be addressed. Or is that you all just want women to remain barefoot and pregnant and serving your every whim? I'm sick and tired of hearing that it's a moral issue or against the teaching of the Bible or your god, etc, etc, etc. I don't subscribe to your way of thinking nor your "god" so don't preach to me about what is right and what is wrong or even about what women can do with their own bodies.

Confrontation 10 years, 1 month ago

"Birth control is not near the $$$$$$$ maker that birth control is."

I'll assume you meant to say, "Abortion is not near the $$$$$$$ maker that birth control is," since that's the only way it'd make sense.

Confrontation 10 years, 1 month ago

acg, although I hate to admit it, I completely agree with you on this one :)

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

The thing about the authors of the Planned Parenthood report is that they were all born, not aborted. They have the glorious luxury of having made it through their mothers' pregnancies. The ugly irony of that fact should be an assault to your senses.

Abortion "rights" supporters (read: 1850's slave-owners "rights" supporters, read: 1940's Nazi death camp "rights" supporters) weren't killed in the womb, but now they have the sad, sick impression that they have a right to kill that which is in the womb.

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

I took a young person to the PP clinic in Overland Park and she was treated with dignity. It was apparent that those treating her understood the depth of her emotions and the extreme difficulty she was experiencing in making the decision she made. I never cease to be amazed at the lack of genuine compassion from many of those who oppose a woman's right to choose. And for those of you who do oppose this, perhaps you should refrain from voicing or picketing your opposition until you've adopted one of the many children up for adoption in this country. Until you do, what you are saying is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

And what lies have i told Defender? I'm wondering since you seem to know me so well. Here is some links about abortion. I bet most won't even look. But putting your head in the sand would be much easier.

http://www.prolife.com/EVERETT.html http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0404.htm http://www.prolife.com/

Confrontation 10 years, 1 month ago

I completely understand, right_thinker. This website can screw with anyone's mind.

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

"I really would like to know what makes you think you have the right to decide for other people??"

ThatGirl, I don't want to decide whether you have your spleen removed. I don't want to decide if you have plastic surgery. And I don't really care what style of haircut you wear. What I do care about is the separate, independent human life that you claim you have the right to kill.

That is why calling abortion "a decision between a woman and her doctor" is such a joke. The assumption is that there's not a third human life involved. How arrogant of you to feel you can engage in that "choice."

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

I agree decided for themselves before they get pregnant. If you feel that strongly about not having a baby then prevent it. How selfish to wait and then say oops i have to get rid of it like your taking out the trash. They have made it to easy in this country to do just that. You say they need education fine then show the whole picture not just part of it. Just saying thats an option does not educate a person. Saying its a simple procedure is glossing over whats being done. If you go in for surgery anywhere they will tell you exactly whats being done from start to finish that way you can decide with full understanding. Those details are not given at Planned Parenthood. Being a person man or woman you need to have full understanding of whats going on with you during any procedure not just basic facts.

july241983 10 years, 1 month ago

Thatgirl,

It is the same thing that says that society can decide that killing a 20 year old is illegal. Or that stealing is illegal. We, as members of society, should be able to decide to protect the life of the fetus, over the choice of someone to kill that fetus.

The debate here is about when life begins. If the fetus is a human being, is it still ok to kill it? I read that Kenya had a law that allowed woman to kill their babies until the baby turned 1 year old. After all, the baby was completely dependant on the mother, and she should have a choice whether or not to take care of it. Is it ok to let the mother kill the 1 year old? At what point is it not ok? Some people, like the supreme court, say once the baby is developed enough to be viable, then there should/can be protections. This is usually at about 25 weeks. But many say that late-term abortion is within a woman's right.

The argument is all about when life begins. We should be able to agree that if the fetus is a "life," we can limit the "choice" of another to take that life.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

Week Five First heartbeats begin - If you have an early ultrasound you may not be able to recognize this tiny being as a baby, but there is no mistaking what it feels like seeing your child's heartbeat on that screen. That rhythmic beat is echoed in your own heart. Umbilical cord develops - This is your baby's lifeline in utero. It bears the responsibility of pumping in oxygen, removing waste, and supplying the necessary nutrients for the remainder of your pregnancy. Blood is now pumping - All four heart chambers are now functioning, insuring your baby's body will receive all it needs over not only the remainder of your pregnancy but throughout life. Most other organs begin to develop - Your infant's lungs start to appear, along with her brain. Already your little one is preparing for a quest for lifelong learning! Arm and leg buds appear - While they may not appear to be much at this stage it is ok to dream of the future. http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

This is around the time when they do abortions.

acg 10 years, 1 month ago

Das, I will totally agree with you on the tossing of agendas. The agenda of the religious right is frightening. The complete control these people seem to want over everyone curls my toes and I honestly can't believe that more people aren't outraged and involved. Everyone is in their own little bubble of jobs/family/kids/life/what's on tv tonight that no one seems to realize what's going down around them and some day we'll look up and it'll be too late. I'm hard on the religious and I didn't used to be. It wasn't until I saw the erotion of our rights based on their doctrines that I started to get incensed and for that, yeah, I'm definitely hard on them. I'm sorry if I offend.

BTW, Mr. Hand, you seem especially bitter today, if it's even possible. Whatsamatter? Did your monthly rectal stick insertion not go well at the Doc this a.m.?

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

ThatGirl, I think the claim of mine you're still harping about is this: "If only Planned Parenthood weren't a making millions off of the abortions they perform..."

I'll remind you that, according to PP's own numbers, for the year July 1, 2005, through June 30, 2006, Planned Parenthood received $345.1 million in clinic income. They don't give their abortions away for free - they charge for them. Part of Planned Parenthood's nearly $1 billion income and $55 million profit in 2006 came from abortions.

Crispian Paul 10 years, 1 month ago

SettingTheRecordStraight (Anonymous) says:

ThatGirl,

Why not get your birth control and annual exam from a provider that doesn't pay for those services with the blood money they receive from abortion income?

Because if you don't have insurance and are not in school, this is the most affordable option. As a live human woman, I will also point out that missing youir annual exams, birth control or not, is EXTREMELY dangerous....these exams can find breat cancer, ovarian cysts, pre-cancerous cervical lesions, etc.

Crispian Paul 10 years, 1 month ago

SettingTheRecordStraight (Anonymous) says:

"I really would like to know what makes you think you have the right to decide for other people??"

ThatGirl, I don't want to decide whether you have your spleen removed. I don't want to decide if you have plastic surgery. And I don't really care what style of haircut you wear. What I do care about is the separate, independent human life that you claim you have the right to kill.

That is why calling abortion "a decision between a woman and her doctor" is such a joke. The assumption is that there's not a third human life involved. How arrogant of you to feel you can engage in that "choice."

Agree with it or not, it is LEGAL. Therefore, you have the LEGAL choice.

Crispian Paul 10 years, 1 month ago

july241983 (Anonymous) says:

Thatgirl,

It is the same thing that says that society can decide that killing a 20 year old is illegal. Or that stealing is illegal. We, as members of society, should be able to decide to protect the life of the fetus, over the choice of someone to kill that fetus.

The debate here is about when life begins. If the fetus is a human being, is it still ok to kill it? I read that Kenya had a law that allowed woman to kill their babies until the baby turned 1 year old. After all, the baby was completely dependant on the mother, and she should have a choice whether or not to take care of it. Is it ok to let the mother kill the 1 year old? At what point is it not ok? Some people, like the supreme court, say once the baby is developed enough to be viable, then there should/can be protections. This is usually at about 25 weeks. But many say that late-term abortion is within a woman's right.

The argument is all about when life begins. We should be able to agree that if the fetus is a "life," we can limit the "choice" of another to take that life.

Well, that's the point isn't it? Some say a fetus is a life. Others say it is a fetus....

The late term abortion reference is misleading in my oppinion. In my experience, the majority of people who support choice do not generally support late term abortions unless they are legally granted (i.e. health issues, etc)

Crispian Paul 10 years, 1 month ago

Parkay says Conversely, women who bear children at a young age reduce their risk of breast cancer significantly.

Stats please? In my experience, detecting and treating every form of cancer early is important. Insurance covers most diagnostic tests. However, statistically (see US cencus), income potential for young parents tends to be limited. Income is part and parcel of good preventative health care. If your income is low, you tend to be more likely to die of a preventable or early treatable illness......See the flaws here?

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

parkay- your comment, "A new study, "The Breast Cancer Epidemic: Modeling and Forecasts Based on Abortion and Other Risk Factors," was done by Patrick S. Carroll of London-based research institute PAPRI and the results were published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons this week. It shows, that among risk factors, abortion is the "best predictor of breast cancer. Abortion's breast cancer risk has been proven and well known for decades, especially the abortion of a young woman's first pregnancy . ." is ABSOLUTELY without substance because I have exhaustively reviewed the research on that subject. Mr. Carroll's research IS NOT corroborated by the body of peer reviewed research published on that topic.

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

insient, Your comment, "By any objective, scientific standard, the embryo qualifies as a member of the human race. From the moment of conception the embryo is an individual . . . " No, it is an embryo, it is not a member of the human race, it is not an individual, it is an embryo. It has the potential for life, it does not have life. Your argument that a woman's right to choose justifies the atrocities of Nazi Germany is too sophomoric to even respond to.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

In 2002 planned parenthood did 227,375 abortions. Take that number times the average cost $300. At that rate they could start paying off the national debt. Now if that was in 2002 I can't imagine what 2007 will get them. Now yes they did shell out alot of pills but those pills cost about $15 a pack max. I got that info from http://www.all.org/stopp/04tbacpa.htm The site people glanced at but would not really look at. But I guess why should anyone since its and all about me. Do the math its about profit.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

At the moment of conception the egg has complete DNA of what that human is to become.Its own personal DNA. By the time the woman even really knows she is pregnant there is a heartbeat. So because the baby is to small to live outside the mother its not alive? Right now i'm 19 weeks pregnant and i can feel that baby kicking inside me. I'm not making the baby kick so he or she must be doing that on his or her own.So that means that baby is alive. It needs my help to help it grow but alive. Now by planned parenthood guidelines i can get a late term abortion which would cost $750. Yes i called and asked. Its a 2 day procedure. The lady on the phone told me that as soon as i fill out the paperwork to make an appointment and they could get me in as early as tuesday. Now so much for couseling or talking about my other options. Those of you that make excuses and talk about how helpful they are to woman are truly keeping your head in the sand. You want prolife to come up with facts for you what don't you do the same and come up with facts as to why a women would need one. Rape and Insest and health reason account for a very small number unless you can prove that with fact.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

Thatgirl 227,375 abortions in 2002 alone times the amount that they cost and you are going to say thats not a profit. Either you have no idea how to do math or its sailing right over your head.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

How do you accidentaly get pregnant? You sleep with someone with out protection what do you think just might happen. Change in cumstances so its not convienent for you how thoughtful.But you still have no facts. How about looking it up and giving us a website to back up your statements.

SettingTheRecordStraight 10 years, 1 month ago

Thanks, Parkay.

And, ThatGirl, I never said what you claim I said. You lose.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

So by your standards they must be making their MAJOR profits somewhere else. Why don't you prove to me that they are not? While your finding that info. If there is any. I'm going to a football game to watch my child who is very much alive.

HMcMellon 10 years, 1 month ago

"What I do care about is the separate, independent human life that you claim you have the right to kill."


For the record, a fetus is not a "separate, independent human life." It is attached to mother and lives within her and is completely dependent on her. It is neither "separate" nor "independent" from her. It is as much a part of her body as any organ.

It is a slippery slope when society passes more laws limiting what we can do with our own bodies. Such legislation ultimately leads to forced lobotomies, force sterilization and other laws making our bodies the property of the State.

It is ironic that people who call themselves, "conservative" support such liberal government policies. Of course they also support fiscal liberalism and making the communists rich and then borrowing a trillion dollars from the commies to do "nation building" while trashing the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the process. All these kinds of activities used to the province of the liberals. Now those who call themselves "conservatives" are the commie-loving, left-wing radicals who want the government to have complete control of our bodies.

What will they want next, a "666" on our foreheads?

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

insient, Your "incontrovertible science" cannot make the leap that an embryo, while living, is anything more than a potential individual, a potential life. Everything is "living" on this planet and "our" genetic material doesn't belong just to us - we inherited 99% of it from chimpanzees. The logic of your argument necessarily extends to the belief that nothing living should be killed. I'm assuming you only live on water.

J Good Good 10 years, 1 month ago

I know that facts don't seem to make any difference but the MAJORITY of women who have abortions were USING birth control when they got pregnant. Six out of 10. USING birth control. No such thing as 100 % effective birth control, except the permanent types (tubal ligation, vasectomy). I know people who have gotten pregnant on the patch, the shot, and the iud.

Just saying there always seems to be this assumption that women were just being completely irresponsible.

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

waydownsouth, Your comment: "So by your standards they must be making their MAJOR profits somewhere else. Why don't you prove to me that they are not". My dear, one cannot prove a negative. It is up to you to provide the proof.

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

captain, "Take the DNA of a person, regardless of what stage of development that person is at, it is the same. The embryo stage or the middleaged stage and the DNA will be his/hers. It remains distinct." I'm not denying that DNA is distinct but it does not follow that the embryo with all of its distinct DNA is anything more than a potential human being. Your line of reasoning would suggest that humanness is nothing more than distinct DNA.

"I take a california condor egg and eat it. Just a lump of cells. Completely dependent upon its mother for temperature control. But when I make a scrambled egg, the law says I have killed a bird? How is that? Oh, because I will have killed an endangered species. You choose to support the killing of humans and rationalize it. That's your final solution. hmmm".
MY FINAL SOLUTION is that you and those with your point of view be required to put your name on a list as an adoptive parent and when your number comes up you will receive a child - it will not matter the age, gender, color, ethnicity, or health condition of the child. It will not matter whether you want the child, have the resources (not only money) to take care of the child, or how old you are - the child is yours to rear. Obviously, we can argue what constitutes humanness until hell freezes over; but what is NOT arguable is that when YOU make a decision for SOMEONE ELSE regarding whether or not an embryo or fetus can be aborted, YOU are responsible for the life that ensues. THAT is the REALITY of one's easy words and riddles. Since you believe having the right to choose is killing human beings and choice should be outlawed, it is incumbent upon YOU to CHOOSE to be first in line to take the child born of the woman with no choice. In fact, you had best be prepared to take more than one.

waydownsouth 10 years, 1 month ago

Funny prolife has to prove a point by facts. Then when we present those facts they are disreguarded as a "propoganda website". Forget the fact that someone did alot of research on that. Then it was also stated that you "cannot prove a negative". So i'm asking to prove that they are not making a majority of there profits on abortion. That would mean you can show me where they are making their money. Prove me wrong. Prolife proves by facts. Prochoice uses opinions to back up what they are saying. Not 1 person as given any referance except to show us that one at least knows how to use the dictionary.

Rabbitgoesthump 10 years, 1 month ago

Remember when we gave woman the right to vote,The right to work and to make decisions for them selfs...

Its a womans body let her do what she wants with it.

We hear about sad cases of child abuse, child neglect, mothers hitting there children, Children growing up with nothing and in the streets....

Abortion should be left the choice of the woman and what she feels is best....

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

captain,

"So now the truth comes out. You view abortion as a matter convienence and economic gain."

No, it is your deliberate distortion of what I said that comes out, not the truth. Where in my response was anything said about abortion for the sake of convienence or economic gain? From where does your inference come? You know good and well the point of my response and your diatribe on materialism is nothing but a distraction from the real truth, and that is that YOU become responsible when you make decisions for another person, regardless of what that decision is. If you want to take on the responsibility of another's embryo then it follows that you are willing to take on the responsibility of the child that ensues. Argue that for me instead of flying off on a ridiculous tangent designed to inflame. Is love designed in us? Ask the person who slams their child against a wall, burns them with a cigarette, screams at them, shames and humiliates them at every turn, and, oh yes, remember to ask those who kill their children. Having three grown children I very much understand the extraordinary gift of having the opportunity to love and be loved - it is the thing I have always cherished most and my children would tell you that materialism has been the least of my concerns; that said, I have also witnessed many very young children who probably wish they had never been born. There is a real imperfect world and there is one's abstraction of it; you appear, along with many, to find the abstraction appealing, as did Hitler in attempting to create his super race. Others attempt to embrace the often hard and ugly reality of humanness both with sorrow and compassion.

denak 10 years, 1 month ago

Does anyone else find it ironic that those who favor abortion love to use the word "fetus" to try to insinuate that the child isn't human or alive when the word fetus is Greek for "LIFE."

Just have to chuckle when some people adamantly exclaim that "It's JUST A FETUS" yeah..it is "just a life."

Dena

P.S. Just for the record, some people really, really, really do need to read Roe vs Wade. I think a lot of people would be more than surprise to read that the decision DOES give the state a right to regulate abortion to protect life. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

P.P.S. If you are not in school or do not have health insurance, you can go to the Douglas County Health Department to get birth control and your annual pap and pelvic exams.

denak 10 years, 1 month ago

".....Is love designed in us? Ask the person who slams their child against a wall, burns them with a cigarette, screams at them, shames and humiliates them at every turn, and, oh yes, remember to ask those who kill their children. Having three grown children I very much understand the extraordinary gift of having the opportunity to love and be loved - it is the thing I have always cherished most and my children would tell you that materialism has been the least of my concerns; that said, I have also witnessed many very young children who probably wish they had never been born...."

As a foster parent, this statement annoys the living daylights out of me. First of all, yes, love is designed in us. But love, doesn't raise a child. Most abusive parents, to some small degree, love thier children. Most want their children at the start. Some children are even adopted and then abused. Raising a child, has little to nothing to do with how much you love them, and everything to do with the skills you have and your ability to adapt and empathize with a child.

Now as for the statement that some of these children wish they have never been born. Not true. I have seen children who have cut themselves, who have banged themselves against walls, who have ran away repeatedly, who have made suicide attempts and who have gone through hell and back, but none of them wished they had never been born. They wished that they had never been abused. They wished that they had parents that loved them. They wished they had a normal life. But not that they didn't have life at all. Out of adversity, comes strength and these children are some of the strongest, most resiliant people I have ever met. I'm not trying to "whitewash" the effects of child abuse, because they are indeed horrific, but these children deserve a lot more respect than to be used as an argument for abortion.

Dena

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

captain, "guilt got you all stirred up? Your statement clearly states that you would rather seek personal freedom from personal responsibility. You reiterated it in your goofy rant a few minutes ago. . . . That's moral superiority. You have some serious issues, psychopathic? . . . . Your logic is consistant, it is flawed and immoral, but you've learned to rationalize that"

my philosophy is not flawed: you argue that social policies are to be guided by the eternal truths of natural law and that questions regarding stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia should reflect the immutable sacredness of human life. Others are suspicious of the idea of determining and settling issues on the basis of abstract truth, holding that moral laws emerge through deliberation and practice and that legislation is not based on abstract theological orthodoxy. Moral superiority is your mantra as you appear to believe that natural law is superior, forgetting that natural law is an abstraction, without proof, as is the philosophy I present. Since you appear unable to discuss this issue without attacking me personally, I'll sign off.

mina 10 years, 1 month ago

denak, " First of all, yes, love is designed in us. But love, doesn't raise a child. Most abusive parents, to some small degree, love thier children. Most want their children at the start. Some children are even adopted and then abused. Raising a child, has little to nothing to do with how much you love them, and everything to do with the skills you have and your ability to adapt and empathize with a child."

Love is a learned behavior. Love is an action, not a feeling, and has everything to do with rearing a child. Feelings come and go, but the action of loving attempts to remain constant in the midst of changes in feelings. We all know that is hard to do. Love is often the primary motivator for a parent to reflect, adapt, and acquire the skills needed to parent. And, in theory, love in action is enough because one will do whatever it takes to take care of their child on all levels. When that fails, thank goodness we have people like yourself who are willing to parent. Even so, one cannot imagine the perpetual, deep sadness of a child from a natural or foster parent who was simply skillful at parenting.

"Now as for the statement that some of these children wish they have never been born. Not true. . . . . I'm not trying to "whitewash" the effects of child abuse, because they are indeed horrific, but these children deserve a lot more respect than to be used as an argument for abortion"

To clarify, the first statement was a sympathetic response, not a statement of intent. When confronted with the horrible abuse of children that thought occurs to me, a natural thought many may have when confronted with horrific abuse on a helpless child, NOT that they shouldn't have been born. That would be absurd; they are here and they need help. Having cleared this point you can understand that abused children WERE and ARE NOT being used as an argument for abortion. I want those who believe in the sanctity of life to step forward and put their money where their mouth is and adopt the children who, in fact, have life. Deal with the child standing in front of you, the hard work, not the easy work of words.

idarastar 10 years, 1 month ago

If you really want to pick and chose parts of the bible to attack abortion, why not look for what the bible provides to defend abortion.

First off, the fetus is not living. "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Genesis 2:7

Temptations, Suffering, Pain...All these are things that God doesn't want 'his children' to endure."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." I Corinthians 10:13

You can interpret anything in the bible to be how you want it to be.

Personally, I just don't see any sense in having a child that the parents are not ready to take care of. I know birth control is important to avoid these problems, but a woman choosing to abort a fetus should not be looked down upon. Why should she birth the child then put up for adoption? Many of these kids will be put into the system and become state property anyways, especially if the child is non-white.(38% of the children in foster care are White, while a majority (61%) are of minority background http://statistics.adoption.com/information/adoption-statistics-foster-care-1999.html).

Every woman is different and their situations are not the same.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 10 years, 1 month ago

"Now, I... I see ALL sides... This is not the issue, I've got the eyes of the blind."

-- Andy Prieboy

workin2hard 10 years, 1 month ago

Tom Tancredo (R-CO) displayed a brochure from a company, which he said no longer has a known address or phone number, that listed prices for fetal parts, including ``$50 for eyes, $150 for lungs and hearts and $999 for an eight-week brain.

Pitts said he was "horrified" by reports that some abortion providers may be "letting babies be born alive and are then drowning them so they can be cut up" according to researchers' requirements. In addition, he noted that "some doctors are encouraging women to undergo 'partial-birth' abortion 'to maximize the possibility of obtaining fetal tissues of organs useful to researchers.'"

That right there needs some serious looking into. That is wrong on so many levels. For those that want to defend that. May god have mercy on your soul.

Crispian Paul 10 years, 1 month ago

Legal choice is LEGAL choice. Period. Want to change it? Take your wacky a$$es to congress or the supreme court and work on it from that angle. Until then, you are trying to un-ring a bell. Until and unless safe, sanitary and medically approved abortions are criminalized, stop treating those of us who support the LEGAL choice as criminals. Of course, the assumption is and does get made that if you support choice, you must've had an abortion. Thankfully I have not had to make such a grueling personal decision.

deec 10 years, 1 month ago

I think Mina has an excellent point. Those who are opposed to abortion should be registered to accept whatever child is given to them at the convenience of the state. Further, males who are opposed to abortion should arrange to have vasectomies so that they are not contributing to the number of unwanted pregnancies. Further, prolifers should be funding research into in-vitro adoption; that is, removing embryos from women who do not want them and having the embryos transplanted into their own fecund uteri. Problem solved.

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