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Archive for Sunday, March 25, 2007

Britain demands release of seized sailors

March 25, 2007

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— Britain demanded the safe return of 15 sailors and marines held by Irananian forces, while the rhetoric out of Tehran escalated.

Iran claimed Saturday that that the British sailors and marines had confessed to entering its waters in an act of "blatant aggression."

The British Foreign Office summoned Iran's ambassador for the second time in two days, saying an under-secretary had spent more than an hour in "frank and civil" talks demanding the safe return of the sailors and Royal Marines, and seeking assurances about their welfare and access to British consular officials.

Iran's top military official, Gen. Ali Reza Afshar, said the sailors and marines were moved to Tehran and under interrogation "confessed to illegal entry" and an "aggression into the Islamic Republic of Iran's waters." Afshar did not say what would happen to the sailors.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini accused the British of "violating the sovereign boundaries" of Iran, calling the entry a "blatant aggression."

The British sailors had just searched a merchant ship Friday morning when they and their two inflatable boats were intercepted by Iranian vessels near the disputed Shatt al-Arab waterway, U.S. and British officials said. The Iranians surrounded them and escorted them away at gunpoint.

Comments

Kathy Getto 7 years, 8 months ago

I wake up every morning wondering if Dumya has invaded Iran whilst I slept. This could be it.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

funny, Karl Rove got the Iranians to seize brit sailors/marines. got the brits to put their ships out to be captured. damn, he's one powerful guy!

actually, the yammering leftists trying to undercut GWB's authority probably are more to blame for this incident. the Iranians hear their drivel and think GWB's hands would be tied so the coast is clear.

thank God we didn't have such an adversarial press and opposition party during civil war/WWII! if so, the CSA would still be in existence and we'd be speaking german/japanese now.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 8 months ago

The Dwead Piwate Wove! He's evewywhere, he's evewywhere!

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

yes, and yes.

and, my "rant" was right on the mark...some of your fellows Aggie are already going off the deep end to say that W/Rove manipulated the Iranian seizure. apparently, you/they got foil hats manufactured by Halliburton which do not protect against the waves but rather focus the waves.

drewdun 7 years, 8 months ago

On a serious note, though, among wingnuts there is a pathological obsession with liberals.

Don't believe me?

Its exhibited every single day by our illustrious right-wing posters, right here on the LJW.

My guess is that since reality hasn't been too awful kind to the wingers, its bound to happen. After all, they're wingnuts. Hatred is what they do.

Still, the sheer intensity of the anger is pretty disturbing.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

note, above read 'Rosie' for one famous example among thousands of the crazy left fringe bloggers.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

from 03/26/07 George Will: ....

Many people who loathe George W. Bush have adopted what Peter Wood describes as "ecstatic anger as a mode of political action." Anger often is, Wood says, "a spectacle to be witnessed by an appreciative audience, not an attempt to win over the uncommitted."

Wood, an anthropologist and author of "A Bee in the Mouth: Anger in America Now," says the new anger "often has the look-at-me character of performance art." His book is a convincing, hence depressing, explanation of "anger chic" - of why anger has become an all-purpose emotional stance. It has achieved prestige and become "a credential for group membership." As a result, "Americans have been flattening their emotional range into an angry monotone."

Wood notes that there is a "vagueness and elasticity of the grievances" that supposedly justify today's almost exuberant anger. And anger is more pervasive than merely political grievances would explain. Today's anger is a coping device for everyday life. It also is the defining attribute of an increasingly common personality type: the person who "unless he is angry, feels he is nothing at all."

That type, infatuated with anger, uses it to express identity. Anger as an expression of selfhood is its own vindication. Wood argues, however, that as anger becomes a gas polluting the social atmosphere, it becomes not a sign of personal uniqueness but of a herd impulse.

Once upon a time, Americans admired models of self-control, people such as George Washington and Jackie Robinson, who mastered their anger rather than relishing being mastered by it. America's fictional heroes could be angry, but theirs was a reluctant anger - Alan Ladd as the gunfighter in "Shane," Gary Cooper as the marshal in "High Noon." Today, however, proclaimed anger - the more vituperative the better - is regarded as a sign of good character and emotional vitality.

Perhaps this should not be surprising, now that Americans are inclined to elect presidents who advertise their emotions - "I feel your pain." As the late Mary McGrory wrote, Bill Clinton "is a child of his age; he believes more in the thrust-out lower lip than the stiff upper one."

The politics of disdain - e.g., Howard Dean's judgment that Republicans are "brain dead" and "a lot of them never made an honest living in their lives" - derails politics by defining opponents as beyond the reach of reason. The anger directed at Bush today, like that directed at Clinton during his presidency, luxuriates in its own vehemence.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

yeah Marion, but if britain/U.S. go to war or have "an incident" with Iran, you know there will be lots of kooks saying this was intentional. that the sailors war placed there for the Iranians to seize!

badger 7 years, 8 months ago

...

What a compassionate bunch you are.

My thoughts are with those soldiers, who are 'under interrogation' in a hostile country, well aware that what may have been a navigational error or an error in judgment now holds the potential to bring their nation and ours into war with a historically unreasonable entity rumoured to be on the threshhold of developing a nuclear weapons program. I can't imagine how frightened, angry, and worried they must be right now, and I hope they are returned home to their families soon.

As to Rove planning this? Man couldn't even keep Scooter Libby out of trouble, and can't keep himself from being subpeonaed. Do I believe he's got the clout and cojones to orchestrate something like this?

About as much as I believe he and GWB planned, executed, and covered up the 9/11 bombings to have a pretext to invade Afghanistan.

Which is to say, not at all.

Tychoman 7 years, 8 months ago

I like how oh so very few of you are taking this seriously, or at least appear to be. If these were U.S. sailors, you would be calling for the invasion of Tehran. Show some compassion and try to understand (which means THINK) about how this might end up being resolved.

badger 7 years, 8 months ago

sb:

So you're using the military as precedent on compassionate behaviour? The military's not supposed to be a model for compassion, sparky. I'm talking about the responses here, and curious how many of them would be as flippant and snarky as they're being if it was a friend or family member 'under interrogation' in Iran.

right_thinker:

The UK may have begun a pullout, but at least Britain has the testicular fortitude to send the sons of its elite to war. Doesn't President Bush have a couple of military-age-appropriate daughters? Britain gets cred we don't get, because they're putting up a Queen's grandson and we've just got a couple of boozing blonde jokers to match it with.

I have a lot more respect for those few Senators and Representatives with children in Iraq, but they're a far minority, because this war, like every other war in recent US history, is primarily being fought by our poor.

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

I see that this incident is being used as one reason for the recent rise in fuel prices.

When it comes to higher gas prices...it's always something, isn't it?!

There's always some new (and rather convenient) reason for gas prices to go up...and up...and up!

paladin 7 years, 8 months ago

Whoops! Just discovered I'm all out of ammo. Must have expended it all New Year's eve. Guess I'll need to stock up soon.

Tychoman 7 years, 8 months ago

That was my whole point, Agnostick.

Thanks for another update from your infinite supply of knowledge, Marion. Good to know that we can rely on you to know what's going on, instead of the news or more direct sources.

drewdun 7 years, 8 months ago

Wow. When I saw the title for this, I thought to myself - "Hmmmm....this involves the Middle East, specifically Iran. I wonder how long before one of the wingnuts blames liberals or brings them into this"

I thought three posts.

Damn, I'm good.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

seriously doubt in the age of GPS that this was an error on their part. these good sailors/marines, 14 men, 1 woman, were seized intentionally by an evil regime. I too am worried about them, now there's word they're "being questioned." If these were americans, and it was during Reagan's presidency, I think this would already be resolved. of course if might require some killing people and breaking things to do that.

my point above was that the work of the left in this country to undercut respect and authority of GWB have led to this incident, because the Iranians hear CNN and other outlets for their pronouncements, see the "nonbinding resolutions" etc., and think him too weak to respond. apparently, the Iranians seized the brits knowing they wouldn't shoot in their rules of engagement. likely american crews have a better set of rules of engagement allowing them to protect themselves.

so, my compassion, as Baj brought up, first I'd rather this not happen. if this isn't resolved right, there will be more good personnel caught in bad incidents. Iran has a 30-year history of a slow-speed war against us. something needs to be done, and force is likely the only thing that will work with them. so, force becomes compassionate that way. otherwise, a slow-bleed conflict just gets kicked down the road and more and more lives get tangled up in it.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 8 months ago

Oh, Aggie. it wasn't just one crew with one GPS! try three of each, plus satellites. so your argument's dripping water. funny, you'd rather believe the terrorist government of Iran than the official account of the Brits. very telling.

and, no evidence we went to war under false premises. note, GWB won't be impeached, no charges, because there's no evidence. no WMD's found doesn't mean they were lied about. further, WMD's were one of four stated reasons.
and, not stated but quite within international law, Saddam had been violating the treaty that ended the first gulf war. we didn't even need to go to the UN because of those treaty violations. drip drip drip.

sometimes, being an extremist is the best thing when it is about what is right. compromise isn't always virtuous, and in the middle of the road, you just get run over.

badger 7 years, 8 months ago

Gnome?

The left didn't have to do anything to undermine global and American respect for President Bush but sit back and let him go. He's done more on his own than an infinite number of liberals sitting at an infinite number of typewriters could ever have conceived.

GPS, by the way, is totally fallible. It's dependent on accurate satellite readings, accurate computer software translation of those readings, and accurate navigation based on accurate interpretation of the readings. It's a fairly well-known fact among those of us who use GPS nav for hiking that it's completely possible to be several hundred feet from where the GPS says you are, based on satellite position and triangulation (and also, sadly, that you can buy a unit at REI or Whole Earth that's as good as the units being issued to overseas troops). In disputed waters, which is where the Brits were, a couple hundred feet can mean one set of instruments says you're over a line (Iran's) and another set says you're not (Britain's). I, like Agnostick, tend to want more data before going off half-cocked on something like this.

Gosh, Marion, I have to disagree. I think the SAS isn't in position. Obviously, it's going to be MI6, and I know this because I totally hang out with James Bond, who has developed a fondness for Tito's vodka and Chuy's Tex Mex, so we go all the time target shooting with my HMNQ-90394Z Model Ephemera 1927 pistol, and drive around in my original Model T, which I got from my friend Henry Ford and know how to drive like a policeman. It reminds me of this song:

Mahna mahna Do doo dee do doo Mahna mahna Do do dee doo Mahna mahna Do doo dee do doo Dee doo do, Dee doo do do doot doo doo dooo.

Thanks,

Badger

badger 7 years, 8 months ago

Also, did I mention that I originally wrote that song?

I used to hang out with Jim Henson (too bad I never told him my sure-fire flu remedy, or he'd be alive today!) and one day he was saying how he needed a catchy little tune for some puppets he was thinking about making out of foam. I suggested he call them 'muppets' and not 'puppets', and reworked a ditty I remembered from some Swedish soft core porn (which I was watching because it had an original Wignum-Latterson Model X2938 racing sedan in it, the only one in the world besides the one I rebuilt from parts I got out of cereal boxes when I was a kid and cereal boxes still had real prizes in them) into 'Mahna Mahna' for him.

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

Marion, my point was/is that someone's getting wealthy/wealthier off of this latest incident!

I'm sure!

Porter 7 years, 8 months ago

HILARIOUS badger! You just won parody of the year as far as I'm concerned.

Porter 7 years, 8 months ago

Do you all think that if the Iranians use waterboarding, everyone will be cool about it. I mean, after all, it's not torture, right?

Christine Pennewell Davis 7 years, 8 months ago

well the iranian people have plastered the 15 all over the news so why not believe they are there? The issue of if they were in irans' waters is also to be ?? since the area is disputed on a daily basis. I do know that the British gov. can not just sit there and say oh well and they can not just overreact. This is a fine line case.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 8 months ago

Somebody should tell the president of Iran to call whoever is running Argentina these days & get some history on what happens when you step on the lion's tail.

ksdivakat 7 years, 8 months ago

I think everyone is missing the point. Suppose that was your family member who was captured??? These ar ereal people, someones mother and daughter, someones brother and son, somebodys husband, and Britan has stood by the US in all this mess with Iraq. We are duty bound as a nation to stand up with our fellow brothers and sisters and say enough is enough!

Mkh 7 years, 8 months ago

Posted by Marion (Marion Lynn) on March 28, 2007 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Aggie:

I think that more of the info for which you have been waiting is in now.

It is now clear that the Brits were in IRAQI waters, not Iranian waters."

Actually Marion the waters in question have been heavily disputed for decades as to who rightfully the controls them. Not surprisingly Iraq and Iran both claim ownership of this important water way.

Which is why both sides act as if they have the right to the authority of who is in these waters.

Gnome, your limitless end to blame "the liberals" for everything is ridiculous...I'd be laughing if I knew you weren't serious.

Christine Pennewell Davis 7 years, 8 months ago

agnostick what are you saying? not attacking just a califcation on my part. I was nor where you there not saying the brits are lieing or the iranian's just saying it isa fine line that must be tread. I do not think I posted anything that is untrue the area in question has been disputed by both countries for a long time, overreaction could lead to all out war and just throwing in the towel is not an option.

Christine Pennewell Davis 7 years, 8 months ago

and going t spelling school would be a good idea today sorry for the misspells.

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

Marion,

You're missing my point.

This incident could have been avoided. You mean to tell me that the US and Britian didn't know how dangerous that waterway was/still is? How hotly contested it is? Those sailors and soldiers should have been better prepared/armed for something like this! They were caught without any means of defending themselves!---Which I believe is exactly what the US and Britian were hoping for!

Now the US and Britain have the excuse that they need to make a military move on Iran!

But because this situation wasn't avoided........by summertime, you and I will be paying 3 bucks for a gallon of fuel (again)!!

And, like I said....someone will be getting rich(er) because of this (escalating) situation!

Christine Pennewell Davis 7 years, 8 months ago

and on afar more important note... I just saw a mouse in my house heeeeeelp send in the marines, fast.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 8 months ago

The Dwead Piwate Wove was swimming around dressed as a mermaid & lured the British sailors off course. Shiny side out, guys!

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

The sinking of the Maine. (A set up/lie.) The sinking of the Lusitania (A set up/lie.) The Gulf of Tonkin (A set up/lie.)

Agnostick, Marion, need I go any further?

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

Marion,

I gotta believe that the US and Britain knew that something like this might happen....and they made no attempt to beef up the forces in that area....or at least supply the forces that are/were there with adequate arms to defend themselves with.

Marion, the (perfect) timing of this "incident" just cannot be ignored.

You'd agree with me, I'm sure, that if Bush and Blair wanted (Needed?) a .....ahem!....."legitimate"....reason/excuse for making a miltary move on Iran.......then something like what just happened would be perfect!

It would be "tailor made"!!

To me, this incident was, in fact, tailor made!

Oh boy!, was it ever "tailor made"!

lol

Jace 7 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, well, I'm sure somewhere in the near future the US and the Brits will "put Iran in its place"......however, I just can't help but believe that when that happens the world will move one step closer to WWIII.

And when, exactly, will WWIII occur?

Oh, I don't know.....sooner rather than later, I'm sure.

In our lifetime, Marion! In our lifetime!

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