Pledge of Allegiance challenger to speak / LJWorld.com

Archive for Tuesday, March 13, 2007

Pledge of Allegiance challenger to speak

By J-W Staff Reports

March 13, 2007

A California man who gained fame for suing the government because of the inclusion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance will speak tonight on the Kansas University campus.

Michael Newdow, who also is working to remove "In God We Trust" from coins, will speak at 7 p.m. at Woodruff Auditorium in the Kansas Union.

The speech is sponsored by KU's Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics.

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Strontius 6 years, 2 months ago

So, how many SOMA members do you know to make that judgment, blue?

The anonymity of the internet makes for a safe environment to be a coward, no?

crazyks 6 years, 2 months ago

I remember reading about this at the time. Funniest thing was that the man didn't have custody of his daughter; she lived with her mother, and neither the mother nor the child had any problem whatsoever with her reciting the pledge in school.

Sounds like just another nut case to me.

prioress 6 years, 2 months ago

Pledging to pieces of cloth is wrong and disrespectful. Why should we be forced to repeat a poem written by a socialist to be good Americans? Watch what people do in their lives, not what they pledge to.

75x55 6 years, 2 months ago

"Open-Minded Atheists" AND "Agnostics"?

Does anyone else see the problem there?

SO, this means that these so-called 'Open-Minded' atheists are open to be converted to the one true Gospel?

Or are they just 'agnostics' that don't like the label? :D

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

"Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

=======================================

The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God". As he authorized this change he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

=======================================

Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWikipedia

=======================================

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/usconstitution/a/pledgehist.htm

=======================================

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

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jonas 6 years, 2 months ago

Why in the world would anyone go see this guy speak?

"Hi, I'm famous for being an annoying irritant. If you seek to be as irritating as me, you might become famous too!"

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Just keeping his 15 minutes of fame alive...I wonder how much he is paid for speaking?

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Maybe...just maybe...he will announce that he was the one behind the "godless" coin...that will make everyone happy and solve the mystery from the other forum!

bunnyhawk 6 years, 2 months ago

guess y'all were sleeping in history class................

clean your ears out and wipe the sleepy seeds out of your eyes............

this country was founded on the principle religious freedom...............NOT on the principle of imposing your religion on other AMERICAN CITIZENS who don't share your beliefs...........even if we are a minority..............Jesus will get you for this idiocy!!!! You'll end up in the 'morons only' section of purgatory if you're lucky!!!!!

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

Bunny, wake up! The COURT said that there is NO proof in NEWDORK'S case that says there is an establishment of religion endorsed by our government. NONE! Prove to me that our government has established some kind of religion within the Pledge of Allegiance. Well....?

BigDog 6 years, 2 months ago

He has the right to speak just like anyone else. I don't agree with him but heck there are a lot of people I don't agree with and they still have a right to be incorrect.

What he doesn't have is the right to change things for the majority bacause he is offended.

Confrontation 6 years, 2 months ago

I'm sure everyone would be on here screaming if they wanted to change it to "under Allah" or "under Aliens." Why not have your kiddies recite it at home and before school? Does it not mean as much if they can't throw their religion in the face of others? Hey, why don't they recite it at church, with their other worshippers of whatever sort? I don't care what religion you think the U.S. was founded on, since times have changed and no one should have anyone else's religion forced on them. Don't like it? Keep your brats at home.

jonas 6 years, 2 months ago

"Posted by right_thinker (anonymous) on March 13, 2007 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Come, come now jonas and whistlestop75, naysayers of Michael Newdow.

He is one of the most important voices for the far-left, secular-progressive today"

Only the most important as claimed by the far right, as incorrect as most everything else that they perceive about the left side of the fence. Probably due to how much easier it is to target the loons and then claim that they represent the left, and then tear them to shreds, than it would be to take a measured approach on the movement as a whole, and the many varied people who make it up.

The way you talk about politics reminds me of that new ESPN commercial, with the guy who can't stop talking out of his rear.

Not that that is solely your province. The far-lefts view of the right is as equal skewed and cartoonish as your own.

staff04 6 years, 2 months ago

"It is rumored they use the remains of aborted fetuses in their rituals?

Rumors?"

Innuendo?

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

"All atheists and agnostics are narcissists. By their own admission they believe in nothing but themselves. They don't share the values of most Americans because it would require them to believe in something greater than themselves. Newdork is the poster child for agnosticks and atheists everywhere."

"What's in it for me!"

Posted by Obamillary (anonymous) on March 13, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Agnostick, Please elucidate. Where have I preached?

Godless coinsLJWorld.com

Thanks a lot, Your Hillaryness! :D

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

spacystaci8 6 years, 2 months ago

I want to go and follow him around say the the pledge of allegiance over and over until he goes crazy, and then throw pennies at him.

jonas 6 years, 2 months ago

That's, errr, really silly.

ksmoderate 6 years, 2 months ago

Very Christian of you, spacystaci.

jafs 6 years, 2 months ago

This is an interesting issue, regardless of one's opinion about this particular person.

There is religious language in our founding documents - "created equal, endowed by creator" which suggests that the founders' religion did influence their ideals.

At the same time, they didn't want to establish a state religion, or interfere with religious freedom.

It seems to me that it would be better to separate church and state - people are still free to pursue their own religious belief/practices - who is harmed? As long as our government stays true to the ideals it was founded on (which it hasn't), what's the problem with this?

On the other hand, inclusion of religious language in state rituals does seem to open the door to possible imposition of one religion/group by the state, which would seem to me to be more harmful, and less consistent with our founding ideals.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

True, putting "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't violate the First Amendment. Nor does it in any way establish some sort of "national religion."

But the circumstances that got it there, and the reasons for putting it there in the first place (McCarthyism) are self-serving & hypocritical, if you go by the New Testament. It doesn't "honor God" for the pure sake of honoring God, but to set a distance between "us" and "them" (the USSR of the Cold War era). The Bible is reduced to a blunt instrument, and nothing more.

Wanna have a public prayer? Fine. Say the prayer, then recite the Pledge. Or vice versa. Putting a religious reference in the Pledge of Allegiance isn't a convenience, it's not a "time saver"... and it largely defeats the original purpose of the Pledge.

But don't take my word for it; follow the link above, and read what author Francis Bellamy said about his work. The man was a Baptist minister; if he'd wanted a religious reference in his work, I think it's safe to assume that he would've put one there.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Posted by couranna1 (anonymous) on March 14, 2007 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I pledge allegiance to the flag Of the united states of neocons and to the hypocrisy for which they stand a divided nation, under their god with liberty and justice for oil

That's how it goes isn't it?

Just wondering...are you an exchange student? Are your roots here in America? Did your parents never place their hand over their heart at a ball game when the national anthem played? What is your problem? If you hate America as your post suggests find a country that suits you. North Korea comes to mind....

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

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whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Lol rhd...people that truly believe that America is beyond it's problems shouldn't stay around to say "I told you so"...either leave or become part of the solution. Become a political science major...step up and run for office or leave the country. Find one that suits your ideas...get out if you think there is no hope. When couranna makes statements like the one posted, it proves he/she has no hope and is not part of the solution.

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

Sorry LJW for that last comment that was removed. It won't happen again. Folks, you see what's just happened? NEWDORK is winning. Hatred in America will not solve our problems.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

couranna, so as not to offend the true, free-thinking Americans, I'd suggest a small change to your "pledge."

"I pledge allegiance to the standard of the Fascist State of Neocon..."

Leave the United States out of it. Most extremists--conservative, liberal, Republican, Democrat or other--don't really qualify as true Americans anyways.

"I pledge allegiance to to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

No no & no I will say what I want the solution is tear this country down and start over where the real values of america are practiced and not that stupid love it or leave it crap you two are just bigoted freaks go back to faux news and be a sheep scumbags Posted by couranna1 (anonymous) on March 14, 2007 at 11:21 a.m.

Bigoted?...that usually has to do with race...I must have hit the nail on the head...are you from a middle eastern country? Or maybe you really are from Korea...it's okay...you can return home...no one will stop you...in fact, if you let us know when we will see you off carrying our American flag!

I just read the article about the event last night...a whole 50 people attended. Sounds like KU students and Lawrence residents are standing behind the speaker...NOT! LOL

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

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whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Posted by couranna1 (anonymous) on March 14, 2007 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

whistlestop75 actually once again you prove how totally stupid and moronic you are I am from Belfast Northern Ireland, my parents were born there schmuck. bring me your flag fool they look cool as they burn

Does that mean you are an American Citizen? Did you get your green card by getting married? Did YOU pledge your alligence to the United States AFTER taking the citizenship test? What a liar you are...If it is true that you are from Belfast...your opinion counts zero on American patriotism...your alligence belongs to another country...go home!

average 6 years, 2 months ago

I've got to give it to the JW's on this one. Pledging allegiance to a piece of fabric is absolute golden-calf idolatry.

I pledge allegiance to the Republic of the United States of America, a nation working toward liberty and justice for all.

But, the official pledge... in school, in Congress, joining the military, etc... is both pledging to defend a piece of fabric and that there is a fairytale sky-monkey.

Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho 6 years, 2 months ago

couranna, I thought you stated on another thread that you were born in the US. That would make you a US citizen.

deec 6 years, 2 months ago

A couple of points. Couranna, whom I do not know, has stated on these boards that her parents were immigrants and she was born in the United States and is, hence, a citizen. If the intent of the Eisenhower administration was NOT to officially endorse Christianity, as opposed to the "godless" communists, then why was "In God We Trust" added during his administration?

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

It seems that as a citizen, couranna would like to disavow her citizenship. Working to solve Northern Ireland issues maybe her true calling. When one likes to burn the American flag it isn't burning the patriotism of the symbol...it is a statement of destruction to the country. Why else would other countries intent on sending a signal even consider burning it to send a message to the American people?

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

rhd99, how much real reading do you do on this kinda stuff?

I mean, investigating things yourself... rather than just regurgitating the daily dose of neoconservative gruel served over AM radio and Faux News?

The Pledge of Allegiance--as originally written--is both a fitting tribute and an honorable tradition to America's most well-known symbol. It existed for 60 years without the stain of McCarthyism. 60 years of schoolchildren reciting it at the beginning of the day, two world wars, the "Greatest Generation." We survived many, many years with a Pledge that was separate and apart from sacred prayer and worship.

If Newdow has ever said or written that he wants the Pledge done away with entirely, produce the video or article, please.

I think it's high time that the 1954 Congressional act be rescinded, and we go back to the original text... or the pledge as recited in the 1940s.

You can say your separate prayer before or after the Pledge. I might even pray with you.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

sunshine_noise 6 years, 2 months ago

What is an agnostic? I don't believe in athiest - no such thing. I believe we ALL have a connection to God whether we want to admit it or not. Who is the first person called upon when a loved on dies, or is seriously injured and on the brink of life? Oh, God!! Who is the first one called upon at your most intimate moment feeling the most intense feelings? Oh God!! Whose name is spoken when at your wits end and so frustrated you could scream but instead us God's name in vain? GD!! So there are no atheist or whatever they are called. There are just people trying to hid their face from God for whatever reason, however one day we all will meet up with our maker then there will be no hiding. However, God bless you all, even the lost ones such as Michael Newdow. We need to pray very hard for him and the likes of people like him.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

Good for you, sunshine_noise.

So let's all say our prayers.

And let's all recite the Pledge to the flag.

Separate... but equal.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

ksmoderate 6 years, 2 months ago

Sunshine wins the most laughable "proof" for the existence of god!

God exists becuase humans use exclamatory figures of speech with the word "god" in them.....priceless!

Keep praying, sunshine...

Crispian Paul 6 years, 2 months ago

Strange that Under God was added to all paper money as WELL as the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's during the "commie" scares. Wonder what that says?

GofForever 6 years, 2 months ago

Here's my question:

Why is it okay to refer to God in school while reciting the pledge, but not okay to refer to God as a 'possible' alternative to evolution in science class!!

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

Stranger still that the once debunked boozin' Commie chaser has today become something of a patron saint amongst the Conservative Republican extremist hater militia.

Wonder what that says?

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org

drewdun 6 years, 2 months ago

"Oh HALLELUJAH! I just can't stop thinkin bout JESUS! I like to go to church and raise my hands towards God in heaven and sway gently to the Michael W. Smith song playing! 'I could sing of your love forever!' HALLELUJAH! And then, I speak: 'rakamakatolokon bramajamabingbongbookie piepislenokiotronikon! Where's the snakes? I NEED THE SNAKES!' Don't ya get it? I'm talkin to JESUS! HALLELUJAH!"

Fundamentalist Christians: your insane delusions amuse me. [Insert Howard Dean scream....HYEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH!]

rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

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rhd99 6 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

How is it different, r_t?

"Oh THOSE FRACKIN' LIBS! I just can't stop thinkin bout HILLARY! I like to watch Faux News and raise my hands towards God in heaven and sway gently to the Rush Limbaugh diatribe playing on the AM radio! 'I could spit on liberals forever!' DAMN THEM ALL! And then, I speak: ATHEISTLIBERALDEMOCRATSECULARPROGRESSIVE! Where's the blog? I NEED THE BLOG!' Don't ya get it? I'm talkin to RUSH! HALLELUJAH!" [Insert Howard Dean scream....HYEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH!]

I mean, really, right_drone... when you think about it... not much difference at all, is there? ;)

Don't believe me? Read your own posts. :)

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.newshounds.us/

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

drewdun, my apologies for not linking back to your original post. Fair use, though, since it was humor/satire. If you want/need a royalty check from my little "sampling escapade," just PM me your contact info, I'll send you a box of donuts.

--Ag

jcantspell 6 years, 2 months ago

Nature created wars and made humans ignorant greedy and hard headed. To control the population or eradicate the parasite called man if need be!

GofForever 6 years, 2 months ago

"Simple, because that is religion, not science."

That's my point! Keep religion out of school totally, or allow it totally. One or the other!

ksmoderate 6 years, 2 months ago

Yes, R_T, but christianists are certainly out to get those who are not "saved" -- that's their holy mission as evangelicals, yes?

And christianists sure complain, whine, and rant about "persecution" a lot.....DESPITE being a majority in this country...

drewdun 6 years, 2 months ago

rt: HALLELUJAH! You see the far-left, secular-progressive, George W Bush-hater, atheist, socialists (did I mention secular-progressive already?) for what they really are: far-left, secular-progressive, George W Bush-hater, atheistic, socialists. HALLELUJAH! Praise JESUS! "I could sing of your love forever!" Let all right-wing Christian fundamentalists UNITE in our hatred of reality, logic, science, facts, and in general, humanity. After all, JESUS wants us to be filthy rich, to not have sex outside of marriage, to believe that the world is 6,000 years old, to condemn those that don't think exactly like us, to think that all humans are dirty and sinners, and to believe that a man that lived in an obscure backwater 2,000 years ago and performed neat magic tricks has some sort of mystical power to defeat death and to send everyone, regardless of their deeds (and misdeeds), to paradise BUT ONLY IF THEY GIVE THEIR HEART TO HIM!

Can you say C-U-L-T?

But what's really funny is that the Jesus that I was raised with was not some sort of pyramid-schemer, or condemner of lost souls, or right-wing 'moral values' paragon, or vote-getter for the Republican Party. In fact, he was just about the EXACT OPPOSITE of all of the things that the wingnut fascist swine have tried to turn Him into in recent years. Then again, I was raised Presbyterian, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Agnostick 6 years, 2 months ago

"After some further analysis, I have diagnosed this as the "Fruit Loop Syndrome"."

And what does that leave you with, right_judger? I think I know: "POUNDIN' AT YOUR HEART WITH THE FIST OF GOD!"

http://www.mypartypost.com/watchvideo/1573/SNL-_Cracklin_Oat_Flakes

Me? That's easy!

http://www.mypartypost.com/watchvideo/1574/SNL-_Colon_Blow

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.newshounds.us/

whistlestop75 6 years, 2 months ago

Posted by Strontius (anonymous) on March 14, 2007 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If people are interested in knowing how SOMA functions, please go to the SOMA website and send me (Andrew Stangl) an email, and I'll be happy to answer any questions. SOMA works differently than most other groups I've encountered.

The attendance for this event was lower than we would have liked, but there's only so much you can do to let people know about an event like this. The campus sidewalks were covered in chalking advertisements, flyers were posted in all the dorms and and all over campus, press releases were sent out to other universities and professors, and some professors at KU even offered extra credit for attending. If I missed something that could have been done to increase turn-out, by all means let me know and I'll amend my advertising plan for next time.

Keep in mind that this week is also mid-terms week, which probably was the main cause for the low turn-out. Considering how many people expressed interest in attending the event, I was quite surprised more people didn't take advantage of opportunity. Oh well, more time for the rest of us to spend with Newdow.

I think it should also be known that atheist and agnostic people rarely have nor need "leaders" in the sense that most people understand the term. One of the byproducts of being such a hated minority in this country is needing to really know your stuff to defend yourself from the almost constant barrage of insult-laden questions and comments. This creates well-rounded individuals who are all capable of becoming great successes in the future, barring the inevitable prejudice one suffers for not believing.

The explaination of why the event only drew 50 people last night...Right Thinker...they are not afraid to believe in God or Jesus...they are too smart for that...THEY KNOW God and Jesus doesn't exist...THEY know their stuff!!!

aveteran 6 years, 1 month ago

rhd99: "The COURT said that there is NO proof in NEWDORK'S case that says there is an establishment of religion endorsed by our government. "

Nope. The court weaseled out by saying he had no standing to bring suit. And his name is NEWDOW. Your use of perjoratives adversely affects your credibility.

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