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Archive for Tuesday, June 19, 2007

Mormon issue

June 19, 2007

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To the editor:

Apparently Mitt Romney's being a Mormon was the least of his problems among the self-proclaimed pro-life folks in Kansas City this past week, but the coverage of that event reminded me of the difficulty that his religion seems to be for him among the voters he seeks to attract.

While I can understand people not wanting to vote for Romney (or any other candidate) because they think he's flip-flopped on issues that are important to them, ruling a candidate out because he is a Mormon remains a mystery to me. After all, aren't the Osmonds Mormon? Orrin Hatch? Bay Buchanan? Wilfred Brimley? Harry Reid?

Ruth Hull,

Lawrence

Comments

samurai22 6 years, 8 months ago

Well, I thought people in Lawrence were an open and accepting community. Reading this string of comments makes me concerned... Mormons (a nickname given to members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints) are Christian and believe in Jesus Christ. If you would like to know what members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints believe, visit the official web site www.mormon.org

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

erod0723: Well said. Nobody would ever be able to figure out what he believes or stands for because he tells everybody only what they want to hear.

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erod0723 6 years, 10 months ago

I wouldn't vote for Romney, not because he is mormon, but because he is a dbag.

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says: My point remains fully intact. No single person or small group of people can claim any form of significant inventorship for the internet.

As does my point: that Al Gore did not exaggerate even slightly when he said, during that CNN interview in 1999, "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

Ragingbear (Anonymous) says: Cone, could you care to explain to us why a translation of something in the 1800's has language that has not been in use for hundreds of years with exception of the Bible?

Nope.

Do you want a president who believes all this?

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

Cone, could you care to explain to us why a translation of something in the 1800's has language that has not been in use for hundreds of years with exception of the Bible?

Would you care to explain the Urim and Thummim?

How about showing us the original scrolls that the PGP was written on? After all, Moroni didn't take those back with him.

Also, there were no horses on the American Continent, yet there are many accounts of Horses in the Book of Mormon. The closest you got to horses are a breed that was roughly the size of a large dog. Those were not ridable.

What in the heck in a Curlom or Cummon?

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4th_grade_education 6 years, 10 months ago

My point remains fully intact. No single person or small group of people can claim any form of significant inventorship for the internet. There are no individuals or small groups that are "most responsible for its development."

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

http://scriptures.lds.org/

Check out Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

4th_grade_education said, I can name five: Kleinrock, Kahn, Cerf, Roberts, and Licklider. Of course the Department of Defense had a lot to do with it too: The myth that the internet was "invented" by any one person or small group of people is ridiculous. It was created as a response to Soviet nuclear threats by the DoD.

That's true, and two of the guys you mention, Kahn and Cerf, who WERE among the primary inventors of the internet, wrote this to acknowledge the important role Al Gore had in the evolution of the internet from an esoteric and barely useful DoD project to the Information Highway (Gore's term, by the way) we have today. Read their entire memo, and "took the initiative in creating the Internet" doesn't seem like an exaggeration at all. Here's the memo:

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200009/msg00052.html

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Eileen Emmi Jones 6 years, 10 months ago

"After all, aren't the Osmonds Mormon? Orrin Hatch? Bay Buchanan? Wilfred Brimley? Harry Reid?" - the writer asks.

Those people are not running for president. I wouldn't vote for them, either.

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Eileen Emmi Jones 6 years, 10 months ago

There was no "development team" that created the internet.

Al Gore pretty much single-handledly wrestled the funding to turn Arpanet into what it is today, from a reluctant Congress. He had the vision to see its potential, when almost no one else did. Without his work as a Senator and the head of that technology committee, the money would not have been there - or it would have come along much later. His contribution is easy to minimize and overlook but it's significant.

Gore never said he invented the internet, either. Every time someone repeats this, they are perpetuating a lie started for political reasons.

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

Packrat, I have lived a life where for some reason or another I have seen a lot of this country, and done many things. These include being homeless, working on a carnival for a season, being mormon for 4 years, living or at least driving through most of the lower 48, living in New Orleans, Daytona, farm country, the deep south and other places. I have also involved myself in local politics and read lots and lots of articles.

I don't know how old you are, nor does it really matter. I have met 90 year olds that have virtually no experience with life, and 20 year olds that have seen more of the world than I have. I would suggest that most likely that you have not even been on one true life adventure. My last count was closer to 20. Those experiences are what teach you about reality. Not school, not "being street" or even sitting around all day reading blogs.

I'm not going to justify my opinions to you either. I am quite aware of how these systems work, and am stating my opinion. If you have another, feel free to post it.

BTW, unless Al Gore was part of the development team in the 60's that created the government system that was a direct precursor to the modern day Internet, then he hasn't had much influence either. Probably played a role in a few FCC rulings. But that is probably about it.

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4th_grade_education 6 years, 10 months ago

"Al Gore did significantly contribute to the development of the internet and this has been acknowledge by the two guys most responsible for its development?"

Who are these "two guys?"

I can name five: Kleinrock, Kahn, Cerf, Roberts, and Licklider. Of course the Department of Defense had a lot to do with it too... The myth that the internet was "invented" by any one person or small group of people is ridiculous. It was created as a response to Soviet nuclear threats by the DoD.

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packrat 6 years, 10 months ago

Ragingbear, Have you done everything and been everywhere?

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

Honest information that says exactly what they want you to hear. You don't get to hear about Kolob and stuff until you have been a really really active member for at least a year.

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packrat 6 years, 10 months ago

I spoke to a friend. He gave me a list of sites for honest information regarding his beliefs.

You are all invited to visit www.mormon.org www.lds.org

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blackwalnut 6 years, 10 months ago

purplesage:

Are you the last dinosaur who still believes Al Gore said exactly that (he didn't), and who has not been informed that Al Gore did significantly contribute to the development of the internet and this has been acknowledge by the two guys most responsible for its development? We would not have the internet as it is today without the work of Al Gore - unless someone else had some the same work and had the same vision.

Google it up, pilgrim. That's the trouble with lies - they sprout wings and people too ignorant to check them out just repeat them over and over until they might as well be true.

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purplesage 6 years, 10 months ago

Soupcan, President's Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush are probably the "stongest Christians" who have held the office in recent years. Carter was then a Southern Baptist Christian and Bush is a United Methodist Christian. President Kennedy was a Roman Catholic Christian. None of these groups have any plan or theology to run the country.

Gov. Romney is a Mormon. Mormons are not mainsteam Christians; their beliefs differ significantly. However, I am not saying that Romney should not be considered as a candidate, his views considered, and an informed choice made. It means that if it came down to an H. Clinton vs. Romney race, he would have my vote.

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purplesage 6 years, 10 months ago

Do your think he could reinvent the internet?

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Stain 6 years, 10 months ago

Bring back Al Gore. He is not a moron.

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altarego 6 years, 10 months ago

The fact that Mitt Romney is a moron should in no way dissuade people from voting for him. If you think about it, all the candidates are morons. So, in fairness, we should all consider voting for Mr. Romney, not despite the fact he is a moron, but because of it.

I know, its been played. What can I say? I'm a moron too.

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Stain 6 years, 10 months ago

soupcan (Anonymous) says: I find all the comments very interesting, however when Kennedy became president I was told by a strong Protestant that he was going to make everyone join the Catholic church. Hmmmmm, didn't happen, funny how folks get panic stricken when a strong christian runs for an office.

soupcan, much has gone down since the Kennedy era. The rise of religious groups as a political force and the fusing of religion and politics, many think, has been a damaging thing for our country. It's hurt the process of selecting a president as well, as candidates flip flop all over the place, feeling like they have to please this particular group while not alienating everyone else. It's time to reject the destructive force of the people who don't believe in separation of church and state.

I personally don't give a hoot who my president worships or how, but when a religious sect with a political agenda (a minority) gets the upper hand over the rest of the population it becomes a concern.

It isn't the same country Kennedy ran in.

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soupcan 6 years, 10 months ago

If you think about it all religions are cults, they want you to follow their teachings, give them your money, etc. hmmmmm food for thought.

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unelectable 6 years, 10 months ago

the difference between a cult and a religion? tax-exempt status.

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soupcan 6 years, 10 months ago

I find all the comments very interesting, however when Kennedy became president I was told by a strong Protestant that he was going to make everyone join the Catholic church. Hmmmmm, didn't happen, funny how folks get panic stricken when a strong christian runs for an office.

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packrat 6 years, 10 months ago

I remember the debates about JFK being a Catholic and people being concerned that the Pope would run America. This is more of the same.

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OZ 6 years, 10 months ago

. . . . .

We should consult with Slimy Sammy (Stauffer/WIBW), my "god" is better than your "god," Bareback about this. . .

. . .

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." --President Thomas Jefferson . . . . . .

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purplesage 6 years, 10 months ago

So the Mormons take care of their women and children? Individaually, there are sterling family men who are LDS. A closer examination of their theology reveals some sinister things.

The LDS believe, "As Man now is, God once was." Translation: human beings can ascend to deity as Elohim has done. There are millions of spirit children needing bodies. Polygamy makes it possible for more of them to be born and have that body. For those who are worthy (a mission, a tithe, etc.) there is Temple marriage, a "spiritual union" between humans. A man may choose to call up his spiriutal wives to assist him in producing spirit children for the planet over which he become God.

They believe in an "open canon" - which means revelation continues and changes a significant as the circa 1976 "revelation" that the Negro race has a soul, after 140 or so years of denying that obvious fact.

The LDS Church and the Councilof Twelve believe they will step in at a crucial time in history and "save" America.

For a little more on the Mormons, check out John D. Lee and the Mountain Meadows Massacre or the current Mohave County court cases involving the fundamentalist sect in Colorado City, AZ.

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ihatelv 6 years, 10 months ago

I can only laugh that Scenebooster was finally put in his place.....

Do I need to quote the above posts before I say that....?

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spywell 6 years, 10 months ago

Can you imagine the hell Bill Clinton lives with at home. I would almost vote for him out of pity.

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chungasrevenge 6 years, 10 months ago

"In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers." - reminds me of......

http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165039/

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yourworstnightmare 6 years, 10 months ago

Lovely. The best the GOP has to offer is a mormon former governor of Massachusetts who was pro-choice until it no longer suited him.

Maybe Fred Thompson can save the day (chuckle), with his womanizing, drinking, and cuban cigar smoking.

Sweet indeed.

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coneflower 6 years, 10 months ago

I don't think it's bigotry to feel our country has been hurt by too much insertion of a particular religious group's agenda into government, and to be wary of yet another presidential wannabe who clearly will pander to a particular religious sect over the interests of the nation as a whole.

That he's willing to say whatever it takes to get elected just tells me he has no integrity. Who knows what he really believes, or what he would really do as president? He seems like a phony to me.

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4th_grade_education 6 years, 10 months ago

Douglas County: More backwards than you think.

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Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho 6 years, 10 months ago

Wow. Reading these responses makes me realize that the bumper sticker is correct. Kansas really is as bigoted as you think.

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Gary Sandell 6 years, 10 months ago

Scenebooster: Uh huh. And you know this:how, exactly?


So, you want a sense of what Hillary is really like? Here you have it.

"Where is the gddmn fcking flag? I want the gddmn fcking flag up every fcking morning at fcking sunrise." Said by the First Lady of Arkansas to her staff at the Arkansas governor's mansion on Labor Day, 1991. (Inside the White House, p. 244).

"Fck off! It's enough that I have to see you sht-kickers every day. I'm not going to talk to you, too. Just do your gddmn job and keep your mouth shut." Said to her Arkansas state trooper bodyguards, after one of them deigned to greet her with "good morning." (American Evita, p. 90)

"[You] fcking idiot." To a state trooper who was driving her to an event. (Crossfire, p. 84). Describing Hillary's general personality, Larry Gleghorn, a former state trooper, said: "She was a b*** day in and day out" (The First Partner, p. 119).

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4th_grade_education 6 years, 10 months ago

Bear, What gave you the impression that I was trying to help them?

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scenebooster 6 years, 10 months ago

"The only time she says something about "God" is when she adds on a "D***" while cussing out Bill or one of her staff. "

Uh huh. And you know this...how, exactly?

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

4th Grade, that does not help the argument for them at all.

And for those that said that I am an anti-bigot acting bigoted can go look at my other post. While bigotry on things like lifestyle and race disgust me, I still stand that religionists are to blame for many of our larger problems in the world. The US needs an agnostic president.

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4th_grade_education 6 years, 10 months ago

KU Law has accepted University of Phoenix graduates...

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Confrontation 6 years, 10 months ago

Ragingbear: If you want to visit an interesting site, go to: uopsucks.com/

There are many links there, including those that show businesses who refuse to reimburse tuition for employees who choose UoP. Also, there is discussion on UoP graduates who aren't even considered for employment because they attended UoP. I know someone who recently graduated from there with a Masters degree, and she can't find anyone who will take the degree seriously. These UoP classes are just as easy as the athlete classes at KU.

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Gary Sandell 6 years, 10 months ago

blackwalnut: O.K. , Now your'e getting a little more into it. I agree, Romney is flip-flopping and has on the abortion issue just to try to make it through the primary. He needs that conservative "pro-life" vote. Don't think that he will ever make it especially if Fred Thompson finally commits. Hillary is also doing her share of flip-flopping on the war issue. Look at her previous clips when the vote happend initally---she was running then, wanting to look tough for the more hawkish voters. Now she is calling it "Bushes War" because she wants to draw back in the more "far left" voters. I don't trust her any farther than I could throw a mormon!! (Sorry-just kidding!). Also when asked now, why she stayed with Bill, it was "because of her faith and relationship with God". Give me a break! The only time she says something about "God" is when she adds on a "D***" while cussing out Bill or one of her staff. Practically all organized churches that I know of ask and expect their members to tithe and support their church's finances, so that is not just a mormon thing.
So if you don't want a flip-flopper, maybe you should vote for Sam B. Or wait, he's a good catholic--but goes to the Topeka Bible Church--or was it the other way around. I guess he's flipping and flopping too...Oh well, never mind!

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blackwalnut 6 years, 10 months ago

gsandell: He has flip flopped on every issue because his #1 goal is to get in office. His Mormon faith is a problem because it is on the face of it a religion filled with racial and gender bigotry, and a church requirement is to tithe and otherwise support the church's finances, and we need a president who will not practice racial and gender bigotry, and put America first - not his church and its finances.

Romney's flip flopping on issues shows that he would say anything to get in office. That is not a person of integrity, and it is not a person worthy of leading our country.

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Gary Sandell 6 years, 10 months ago

Sounds like all of you "anti-bigots" are very bigoted when it comes to people of the Mormon faith. Should'nt you be judging his politics rather than his religon since they are supposed to be kept separate? What has he done politically that would not make you vote for him? That's the question that you need to be asking.

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blackwalnut 6 years, 10 months ago

I particularly love how the Mormons, when they hold a "blessing" ceremony for a newborn baby (sort of like a christening), let the father hold the baby and the men all stand around it while the mother and other women sit in the back and look on. Actually, I don't love that at all.

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

On a side note, University of Phoenix is responsible for a large amount of spam, tracking cookies, adware and scumware on the net. So that really makes you wonder. BYU would be a better school to go to than UoP.

Heck. University of Bugtussle would be better.

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

Bigotry and racism is part of the Mormon religion. Here are a few notes to write down next time some kid that was sent out into the world to bug you at 10am tries to tell you otherwise.

The mark that God put on Cain was black skin and a wide, flat nose.

Blacks today were fence sitters in the war in heaven.

The American Indians used to be white. Only those that grew wicked were made darker by god to let others know that "They were a vile and loathsome race.".

In the resurrection, when all people receive their perfect bodies, they will be white.

Until 1978, Blacks could be members of the church, but hold no priesthood office. The priesthood is given to virtually everyone by the time they are 12. Without it, you can't do anything. No power whatsoever in the church while everyone else is out doing stuff.

The Church practices a special blessing called a "Patriarchal Blessing". The church handbook clearly stated that if the person getting the blessing was black, they were to be told that they were "of the lineage of Cain" and leave it at that. Whites were told what of the 12 tribes of Israel they were from. 99% of the church is strangely of the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh.

And the reason why the church is so rapidly growing in South America and Africa is that the church has an extensive social welfare system that is providing tons of food to these countries that were otherwise starving. No wonder so many people are joining. They would join a church of Satanist, or volcano worshippers if they brought food to their starving country as well.

The church also boast much higher numbers than they really have. You see, once you join (by way of baptism) and are "confirmed", then your put on church records. These records can only be removed through one method, by disciplinary counsel. Being that many people join and then end up drifting away within 1-2 months of them doing so, you will find a local ward (congregation) claiming 400 members, but never see an attendance greater than 50.

In order to get your name removed from such records, you have to go and fill out a form requesting a church disciplinary counsel to be convened. In the form you will explain why you feel you should be punished(I've been a very naughty boy). They will then get all the local leaders together to discuss things. You can be there, or not. You will then get a letter in the mail telling you that you have been excommunicated and that there is a special place waiting for you that only Satan Himself and a small handful of other people will spend all eternity within. Most people call it Hell, but Mormons call it outer darkness.

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KayCee 6 years, 10 months ago

"The GOP could do worse than to pick Romney. At least there'd be "honor in defeat." I'll agree here, I sure don't want Rudy, even though I admire how he handled New York and 9-11. Best to wait a while and see what what developes among the candidates.

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Jamesaust 6 years, 10 months ago

"...but the coverage of that event reminded me of the difficulty that his religion seems to be for him among the voters he seeks to attract. While I can understand people not wanting to vote for Romney (or any other candidate) because they think he's flip-flopped...."

These two issues are connected. When you can quote Romney for literally any proposition under the sun (he aims to please - what would you like to hear him say?), the only factoid that seems firm about him is his religion.

Say what you will, he's the only serious Republican contender that seems capable of leading a moral family life. Unfortunately, that just highlights the GOP's desperation in 2008. You can't be a party emphasizing a holier-than-thou approach to public and private(!) morality and then put forward a collection of divorcees, spouse-abandoners, adulterers, and sleezy playboys (let alone liars and grifters and gamblers-anonymous members) as your Party's leadership. (Should we list which candidate matches which adjective?) The GOP could do worse than to pick Romney. At least there'd be "honor in defeat."

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blackwalnut 6 years, 10 months ago

Ruth Hill:

It is so easy to attract the "bigotry" label when discussing Romney's Mormonism. All I can say is, you should learn much, much more about this church and its financial interests and then you will understand why people are frightened about a Mormon president. There is no way Romney could be a faithful Mormon and not put his church, and its financial interests, above our country. Basically, Romney would deliver America to the LDS church, which is already far wealthier than the Catholic church despite the latter's much larger membership and much longer existance. The LDS church is a huge business enterprise.

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aquakej 6 years, 10 months ago

Ragingbear, you too? I used to be Mormon...ahh.....I'm soo glad I got out. Anyhow. He is probably right about the taxes. Since Mormons condemn alcohol, tobacco, tea, etc., it would make perfect sense for them to want high taxes on these items.
And moderationman, Mormons are pretty racist, as a group. They say they aren't, but they wouldn't allow black people to join their church (or become priests) until the late 1970s!! And even then, they only allowed it because of political pressure. That's why they got rid of plural wives as well: political pressure in the late 1800s. The reason they didn't let black people into their church was that the Book of Mormon says something about a famous battle in which the good people were white and the bad people were black. I saw one black Mormon in 10 years. I don't know why any Africans would join, given the facts.

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Bruce Bertsch 6 years, 10 months ago

I have to call BS Ragingbear. The LDS Church does not favor increasing taxes, in fact it takes no position on political issues. I would ask you, "What racism?" It is one of the fastest growing religions in South America and Africa. I guess the Mormons are infiltrating government just like the Catholics, Methodists and others. Much ado about nothing.

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Ragingbear 6 years, 10 months ago

Yeah. And their racism is much more readily displayed. So at least you know where they stand.

Too bad that the Church has been infiltrating government offices for years. Closest they have gotten was a Secretary of Agriculture known as Ezra Taft Benson.

Many may not know that Mormons also want to see dramatic increases in tax on coffee, tobacco, alcohol and tea. If Romney got in, the Church would not hesitate to run into the Oval Office and start making their own changes.

Believe me. I used to be a member. This type of behavior is typical.

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spywell 6 years, 10 months ago

At lease Mormon's take care of their women and children.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 6 years, 10 months ago

So you're saying that because all those people suck that Romney sucks too?

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gabbo 6 years, 10 months ago

I wouldn't vote for Donnie, Marie, Orrin, Bay, or Harry. Wilfred Brimley, however...

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