Archive for Wednesday, July 11, 2007
Pope: Other Christians not true churches
July 11, 2007
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Italy — Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.
The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders. “It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity,” said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries.
It was the second time in a week that Benedict has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-1965 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass.
11 July 2007 at 9:27 a.m.
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Centrist (Anonymous) says…
Out of touch, and irrelevant. There are much more pressing issues than a tit-for-tat over who gets to be the “real” church.
Gimme a break.
11 July 2007 at 10:04 a.m.
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crazyks (Anonymous) says…
This is really no different than what every other church says.
But appallingly arrogant.
11 July 2007 at 10:20 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
Well, good. Now American protestants can know how it feels when they tell everyone else that they are going to hell for not being a Christian at all.
11 July 2007 at 10:21 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
Let me rephrase that: “they will not be gaining salvation by not being a Christian at all.”
11 July 2007 at 10:23 a.m.
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Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho (Anonymous) says…
Let me see if I got this straight: The pope is saying that the true church is the one that has gambling/bingo on church grounds, priests who molest kids and a pope who worked with Hitler during WWII?
Jesus chased money changers out of the temple, but chain smoking gamblers with lucky trolls get a pass.
Okay. Got it.
11 July 2007 at 10:28 a.m.
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imastinker (Anonymous) says…
Kam Fong, that was completely out of line.
As a catholic, this seems like a stupid thing for the Pope to say. Who really cares? Of course, I believe that being catholic is the best way to get to heaven, but so do the baptists, protestants, and islamic suicide bombers for that matter. If I didn't think that I'd find another religion.
11 July 2007 at 10:29 a.m.
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Oracle_of_Rhode (Anonymous) says…
Let's all pray for this misguided Hate Pope.
11 July 2007 at 10:29 a.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
Humans just can't get along…not even Christians can get along with each other.
11 July 2007 at 10:37 a.m.
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hawklet21 (Anonymous) says…
Kam Fong was not out of line, because nothing that he said wasn't true.
11 July 2007 at 10:49 a.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
Don't forget, Kam Fong, that Catholics are also promoting the evils of birth control in AIDS infested Africa.
Sorry, imastinker, but you might want to find a new religion or just ditch superstitions in general.
11 July 2007 at 10:53 a.m.
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Oracle_of_Rhode (Anonymous) says…
Catholics often worship steamed-up windows, grilled cheese sandwiches, tree bark, wall stains and anything else that abstractly resembles a human face that could be construed to look like Mary or Jesus.
Catholic clergy have an insanely high proportion of child molesters in their midst, whom they protect and abet.
Now, the Pope, who once was in the Hitler Youth, who wears Prada, says if you ain't a Catholic you're gonna burn in hell.
I'm convinced! Catholics are number one! Let's begin the inquisition.
(Actually, I prefer a hybrid of Buddhism and trying to follow the words of Jesus).
11 July 2007 at 11:03 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
What a poorly edited clip of an article. This doesn't actually get into any of the actual detail at all, and is utterly confusing. If anyone wants at least a tiny bit more detail, try:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,2888…
11 July 2007 at 11:08 a.m.
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Kathy Getto (Kathy Getto) says…
Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho (Anonymous) says…
Let me see if I got this straight: The pope is saying that the true church is the one that has gambling/bingo on church grounds, priests who molest kids and a pope who worked with Hitler during WWII?
Jesus chased money changers out of the temple, but chain smoking gamblers with lucky trolls get a pass.
Okay. Got it.
__________________________________________________________________________
You weren't out of line, Kam_Fong, you just forgot to add destroys entire cultures and murders innocent people in the name of the church!
11 July 2007 at 11:16 a.m.
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acg (Anonymous) says…
If I ever decide to “find religion” in my life I'm definitely going for Catholisicm. What a racket, eh? You get to do whatever you want to do all week long and as long as you tell the shriveled old guy in the box on Sunday, you're good to go. He makes you say a few hail mary's and light the candle and that's that. Plus, you know the old guy in the box loves it. He gets to hear all of the dirty details. It's like every confession is an open letter to Penthouse Forum. Yep, that's quite a racket. I'm sure, btw, if there is a God, that he's not bothered by all of this in the least.
11 July 2007 at 11:25 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
Unfortunately acg, that is the same depiction I have of Catholisicm. However, in every church there are abusers of God's grace. The Pope is definitely not uniting anybody, that's for sure.
11 July 2007 at 11:33 a.m.
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b3 (Anonymous) says…
Has anyone else noticed that St. Johns is joke of a catholic church, it is too much of a hippy, feel good, love fest. Corpse Cristi is much more old school and the much more enjoyable. I hope that they start doing the latin mass here in Lawrence
11 July 2007 at 11:39 a.m.
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Bradley Menze (Bradley Menze) says…
Growing up Catholic I knew it had a very dogmatic perception of salvation but spiritually it did not meet my needs. In my late teens, I had an experience which transcended the spiritual, as it was physical and emotional in nature, too. I perceived this to be my “salvation experience” and soon found myself drawn to evangelical type of churches which were non-denominational in nature. Since then and relative to other denominations and Catholicism I was aware of what separated us but tended to focus on what we had in common. While wondering or even suspecting that such a view was likely in the Catholic heirarchy, I was disappointed to read this reassertion by the Pope.
11 July 2007 at 11:59 a.m.
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micah6_8 (Anonymous) says…
From the Vatican Website (Q&A):
“Fifth Question: Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?”
“Response: According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20].”
One of the great joys of being a pastor in my “middle ages” has been the joy of witnessing the gradual narrowing of the gulf between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. In my youth, I was disturbed when denominational differences set up social and religious barriers between RC's and Protestants, especially when my parents informed me that as a Protestant, I could never marry my 5 yr old “girlfriend” (I was the same age) who was Catholic.
In the years that passed, I felt so relieved that many of the gaps closed and I could share my faith and love for Christ not only with those of my denomination, but with other believers in the church universal, regardless of denomination. Broadening talks between Roman Catholicism and my own denomination have been encouraging and I, for one, felt doors opening, instead of remainng closed.
Now the new Pope seems to be slamming those doors closed, denying true communion between other disciples of Jesus Christ, declaring as illegitimate those outside of Roman Catholicism, denying the “whosoever” in John 3:16, as well as Romans 10:9 and scores of other scriptures that seem to regard legitimacy as a condition of faith, not denominational affiliation.
This is such a setback! I feel dirtied and diminished as a professing Christian, and as a pastor, as a result of the Pope's biased statements. I also feel diminished in that my sense of communion with believers in the Roman Catholic Church is similarly clouded and pushed away.
Apparently the Abrahamic Covenant, whose eventuality lies in the person of Christ, was only meant to be a blessing in all nations for those who believe in the Pope.
This is a shame!
11 July 2007 at noon
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trinity (Anonymous) says…
statements such as this are exactly the *why* of me not being a catholic any more. bleh.
hi hawklet! :)
11 July 2007 at 12:01 p.m.
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Ralph Reed (Ralph Reed) says…
Here's another opinion from cnn http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/…
Just so we have both ends of the spectrum.
I've not yet read the 16-page document from the Church so I can't compare either 75x55's link to fox or this one to cnn with the base document. However, both the fox and cnn online articles read like a series of soundbites and aren't really substantive. But, I do agree with 75x55 — the article in the LJW is poorly done.
11 July 2007 at 12:05 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
I'm convinced! Catholics are number one! Let's begin the inquisition.
============================================================
Oh, the irony. The current Pope used to be Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which at one time was called the Holy Office of the Inquisition.
It's interesting to note that Benedict was party to the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, or Vatican II, so this seems to be a case of sour grapes.
11 July 2007 at 12:07 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
b3, God forbid that a Catholic church be feel-good and incorporate love.
I have a former roommate who is [sadly] Catholic and gets vehemently offended if someone calls Catholicism a Christian religion. Yeah, they're the religion of acceptance.
11 July 2007 at 12:18 p.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
Kam Fong was right! If anything, he was to lenient. People should not forget that during the Middle Ages the Vatican was one of the most powerful entities in the world and used their power very suspectly, even invading other territories with their vaunted army. Here's some interesting trivia: Around the 10-1100's, three popes in a row died while having sex…of course none of them were married….and not all of their partners were girls…tata.
11 July 2007 at 12:32 p.m.
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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…
“Of course, I believe that being catholic is the best way to get to heaven, but so do the baptists, protestants, and islamic suicide bombers for that matter. If I didn't think that I'd find another religion.”
I love how you lump all the Muslims together as suicide bombers. You just couldn't bring yourself to say “Muslims,” could you? You're just as ignorant as this Pope and those who worship him as God's right-hand man.
11 July 2007 at 12:43 p.m.
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TheHeartlessBureaucrat (Anonymous) says…
Well…if there is a list of rules getting into the afterlife, I'll bet those policies are not changed or modified by the whims of humans. So…either we were already saved or already screwed.
So, if we use the “exclusivity mode of afterlife inclusion” and there's a doorperson with a velvet rope letting certain folks into the “Salvation Club” hotspot, they're probably not going to let the folks in line make decisions about admission.
Sorry, I'm going to wait for the one in charge to make that decision.
THB
11 July 2007 at 12:43 p.m.
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sourpuss (Anonymous) says…
The Catholic Church did not form until the 4th century, a good 300 years after the Jesus rigamarole. It certainly was not the first church. The Catholic and Eastern churches were basically one church until the 11th century, though they always disagreed on the “filoque” issue and that popped up during the early church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries.
The Coptics in Egypt are the closest to the early church left, but many were wiped out in the 9th and 10th centuries under a despot.
Remember kids, God speaks Latin! Or was that Greek? Or Hebrew… ah well.
11 July 2007 at 12:46 p.m.
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grimpeur (Anonymous) says…
From the headline:
“…true churches…”
Heh. Good one. Kinda like “reality television.”
11 July 2007 at 12:46 p.m.
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Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho (Anonymous) says…
The inferiority complexes of those who have chosen false religions is running rampant on these forums.
========
…it also seems to be running rampant in the Vatican!
11 July 2007 at 12:47 p.m.
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BigDog (Anonymous) says…
Confrontation
“Of course, I believe that being catholic is the best way to get to heaven, but so do the baptists, protestants, and islamic suicide bombers for that matter. If I didn't think that I'd find another religion.”
I love how you lump all the Muslims together as suicide bombers.
__________________________________________________________
Call me crazy but aren't all Catholics being lumped together in most comments here.
11 July 2007 at 1 p.m.
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Ralph Reed (Ralph Reed) says…
Ah, nothing like religion (or politics, or abortion, or bicycles, or sexual preference, or cohabitation, or [fill in your own word]) to bring out a well reasoned and intellectual discussion of the subject. Ya gotta lovit.
11 July 2007 at 1:13 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
He must not be a big fan of the reformation.
11 July 2007 at 1:18 p.m.
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Christian Hinton (Christian Hinton) says…
THB:
Nice post. I totally agree.
11 July 2007 at 1:19 p.m.
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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…
bigdog you are crazy. but regardless of that the pope is THE leader of the RCC and TRUE cathloics are comanded to take every thing he says as if God himself said it to them, something about infalability of the pope or something. So the leader of this faith has drawn the lines and most are just pointing that out.
11 July 2007 at 1:22 p.m.
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DonQuipunch (Anonymous) says…
Other Christians: Churches With Rampant Sexual Abuse of Children By Clergy Probably Should Not Be Pointing Fingers, Thanks.
11 July 2007 at 1:23 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
(Actually, I prefer a hybrid of Buddhism and trying to follow the words of Jesus).
Are these the words of Jesus you are trying to follow?
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
11 July 2007 at 1:23 p.m.
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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…
BTW I think this whole mess i somehow the result of the actions of Wal-mart, or Clinton (Bill not George) and li'l Bush
11 July 2007 at 1:23 p.m.
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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…
BigDog: Yes, but only as having superiority complexes, not as murderers.
11 July 2007 at 1:39 p.m.
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TheHeartlessBureaucrat (Anonymous) says…
Daddax98: Yeah…..look at em….none of 'em are catholic. Walmart, Clinton and Bush…the new Axis of Evil.
WWBD? What Would Bootsy Do?
THB
11 July 2007 at 1:47 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Hey, sourpuss (and others as need apply) -
What's the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the church catholic?
11 July 2007 at 1:58 p.m.
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absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says…
Okay you all. Simmer down. 100 words are NOT going to convey exactly what the Pope said. Since you are all in an uproar, get it from the source directly.
http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-20098
While Benedict isn't quite as “media savvy” as his predacessor, he knows his doctrine. What he states if fact. All Christian Churches have branched from the Roman Catholic Church. That's historical fact.
Oh…btw…
“…upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell will not overpower it.”
Matthew 16:18
Fire away.
11 July 2007 at 2:02 p.m.
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cath (Anonymous) says…
Daddax98, “the pope is THE leader of the RCC and TRUE cathloics are comanded to take every thing he says as if God himself said it to them, something about infalability of the pope or something.”
Only when the pope speaks “ex cathedra” is it considered infallible. If the pope said we should all eat Froot Loops for breakfast, no Catholic would be obliged to eat them. It is only in matters of faith and morals that he would ever speak infallibly, like the Resurrection must be believed or you should not consider yourself Catholic.
11 July 2007 at 2:06 p.m.
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rosben (Anonymous) says…
daddax98 (Anonymous) said
…the pope is THE leader of the RCC and TRUE cathloics are comanded to take every thing he says as if God himself said it to them, something about infalability of the pope or something. So the leader of this faith has drawn the lines and most are just pointing that out.
––––––––––—
Actually, to be more correct, popes speak infallibly extremely rarely. Within the last hundred or so years, a pope has only spoken infallibly (dogmatic definition) a handful of times. Pope Benedict has never spoken dogmatically.
I find it quite sad to see how much hatred and ignorance there is towards the Catholic church on this forum.
11 July 2007 at 2:11 p.m.
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absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says…
b3…St. John's is anything but a feel good love fest. St. John's folks are very action oriented and actually practice what they preach. Sorry if you had a bad experience there. I've had a bad experience across town..despite that, I'm still Roman Catholic, 100%.
11 July 2007 at 2:14 p.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
I'm Pastafarian. My heaven has a beer volcano and a stripper factory.
May all behold His Noodly Appendage!
Ramen.
11 July 2007 at 2:29 p.m.
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b3 (Anonymous) says…
Absolutely ridiculous- your statement is, well, absolutely ridiculous. My bad experience there has been going on for over 10 years, however, it has gotten a lot worse over the last 3 or 4 years, hmmm, wonder why that is. Church is not supposed to be an enjoyable hippy band jam session, rather it should be educational and the priest should be respectful.
11 July 2007 at 2:41 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
“I find it quite sad to see how much hatred and ignorance there is towards the Catholic church on this forum.”
I'm sorry, rasben, but some of us kind of get offended when somebody tells me I'm going to a place like helll just because I don't believe what they do.
“Hatred and ignorance” can easily be applied to your church as well.
11 July 2007 at 2:49 p.m.
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cath (Anonymous) says…
Roadkill, The pope did not say anyone who is not Catholic is going to Hell. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Rather than that being a cause for arrogance (and I do realize there are plenty of people who do wrongly do so), it is a grave responsibility for a Catholic to act more like Christ than anyone else. The Church only claims itself to be the ordinary means of salvation. There are other ways, such as by fire, or desire, that one can gain heaven.
11 July 2007 at 2:49 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Yup - the gospel is offensive to many, R_R.
11 July 2007 at 3:04 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
cath, I wasn't specifically talking about the Pope…just christians/catholics in general.
Rasben said that there is a lot of “hatred and ignorance” when it comes to the Catholic church and I pointed out that I don't appreciate anyone telling me that, b/c I don't believe in their superstitions, I'm going to be sent to a fiery pit and burn for all eternity.
Sorry if that comes off as “hatred” or “ignorant” but I get a little offended to their rational…I don't tell anyone that they're going to be tortured if they don't believe what I believe in.
BTW, I have no clue what your talking about in your description of the Church and the fullness of Truth…it sounds like nonsense to me but to each their own.
11 July 2007 at 3:06 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
“Yup - the gospel is offensive to many, R_R.”
Yup, to the few of us who prefer logic and reasoning in our view of the universe.
11 July 2007 at 3:10 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
b3, the service shouldn't be enjoyable?
Spoken like a true Catholic.
11 July 2007 at 3:14 p.m.
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absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says…
b3…If you are referring to Mass as Church, then perhaps you were improperly educated (as I was) and you have the wrong intention of the holy Mass. It's not about education, it's about being present to God, through Christ in Word and the sacrifice of the altar…Eucharist. I sincerely apologize for the style and personality of what you have encountered. I believe that is what the Pope is trying to correct in his allowing the Latin Mass back. To come back to what is central in the Mass…Word and Body. I agree, sometimes the music style steals the attention of those present. I beg your patience.
11 July 2007 at 3:18 p.m.
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independent (Anonymous) says…
The only way to heaven and eternal life is a narrow path. There is no universal religion or general belief in a god somewhere that will lead to eternal life though many churches want you to believe this. It is much easier for the world to believe that as long as we are “spiritual” we are ok, BUT, the only way to heaven is………
heaven is a free gift–romans 6:23 kjv
it's not earned or deserved–ephesians 2:8-9 kjv
man is a sinner–romans 3:23 kjv
man cannot save himself–ephesians 2:8-9 kjv
god is merciful and does not want to punish us–-1 john 4:8b kjv
god is just and must punish sin–-exodus 34:7b kjv
christ is the infinite god-man–-john 1:1,14; 20:28 kjv
he died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us–isaiah 56:6 kjv
have faith and trust in jesus christ alone for eternal life—acts 16:31 kjv
An ecuminical religion is very dangerous as is Catholicism. There is only one way to everlasting life and that is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Never put faith in a catholic priest to forgive your sins, he cannot. infant baptism is not found in the Bible. Also, muslims, islam, allah are in direct opposition with the Bible and the teachings of Christ no matter what some websites claim.
http://www.bible-truth.org/fundbapt.htm#…
11 July 2007 at 3:24 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
“An ecuminical religion is very dangerous as is Catholicism. There is only one way to everlasting life and that is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Never put faith in a catholic priest to forgive your sins, he cannot. infant baptism is not found in the Bible. Also, muslims, islam, allah are in direct opposition with the Bible and the teachings of Christ no matter what some websites claim.”
Yawn…thanks for the nonsense though.
11 July 2007 at 3:26 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“I don't tell anyone that they're going to be tortured if they don't believe what I believe in.”
Neither do most Christians - they're just passing along the warning. Ask Oracle_of_Rhode from 10:53 am post. He'll surely be able to tell you who pointed this doctrine out and how he tries to follow that word.
Seriously though - it is too bad that this message can be delivered too bluntly and in the wrong spirit - but it is difficult to NOT emphasize the scope of that disaster. A good read:
http://edwards.yale.edu/images/pdf/sinne…
11 July 2007 at 3:32 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
“they're just passing along the warning”
Um, that's the same thing as telling me that if I don't believe what they do, then I'm going to burn for eternity. How do you not see that?
11 July 2007 at 3:32 p.m.
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absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says…
Independent…funny how you quote from the Bible that the Catholic Church has given you. How can you paraphrase scripture verses, out of context to get where you are at? Help me here!
The Catholic Church can and does trace it's roots right to Jesus Christ alone. And sola scriptura doesn't work either. Jesus is always revealing Himself through the tradition of the Church. This is why the Catholic Church holds the depth of the Truth that we can't begin to assemble in this piddle of a forum.
11 July 2007 at 3:34 p.m.
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paladin (Anonymous) says…
Clem: Damnation! That thar pope says I'ma goin ta hell, then thats good nough fer me. He oughta know. I'ma guessin he's kinda like the counslurge a god. Takes care a all a god's bidness here on earth. Kinda like a CEO a the whole shebang. Too durn old ta be a dang catholic now. Ain't much point to er. Thanks pope! That thar put ma mind ta ease a might. Mights well live er up from here on out. Quit hoggin that thar jug Zeek an pass er round.
Zeek: Heeyuck! Heeyuck! Pope er not, heres to ya.
11 July 2007 at 3:38 p.m.
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EXks (Anonymous) says…
How long did it take the citizens of Europe to cast off the yoke of catholic oppression, perhaps 500 years or so?….and now Latin America, the last bastion of catholicism is fleeing this institution in droves, converting to various evangelical doctrines. Perhaps this is why pB XVI is mouthing off.
11 July 2007 at 3:38 p.m.
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micah6_8 (Anonymous) says…
77x55 asks the difference between the RCC and the church catholic. That is a great question to ask for it has large implications for both RCCs and other Christians.
From a Protestant POV: The Church catholic (catholic is another word for 'universal') is that body of believers who believe in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:16), have accepted Him as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9-10), and who have embodied His ways (John 15:14, et al). This is regardless of denomination.
The Roman Catholic Church is specifically that body of believers by the same name. It is one of many Christian denominations
From a rcc pov: It would be correct, especially based on the current Pope's latest disaster with words, to equate the RCC with the church catholic, for as far as they are NOW concerned, all other churches are illegitimate, and therefore cannot be considered part of the Church catholic (or universal), OR the RCC.
Does anyone find it interesting that the head of the first Church in Jerusalem was not Peter, but in fact, James? See Acts 12:7 & Acts 15:4-22 You will notice that this original church was the church the apostles reported to, discussed their policies and doctrines at, and from which the earliest church decisions were made from. As you read the chapter 15 passage, do you notice that it was in fact James who “made the decision”? Did you notice that it was to that church and to James that Peter was reporting to in chapter 12?
Who was it whom God appoointed to be the head of the Church in Ephesians chapter 1? Was it a mere mortal?
I could go on…………..
11 July 2007 at 3:41 p.m.
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absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says…
Roadkill…The Church never has said “if you don't believe in what we do, you are going to burn in hell.” The Church is NOT here to judge. Now, those you've encountered might say this but knowing the depth of the Church, we owe it to ourselves to seek the truth beyond what we experience. Muslims believe in peace, but our current experience by a few, wouldn't tell you that. Does that mean that I think Muslims are going to hell? Absolutely not? If they've never learned who Christ is, they can't be held accountable.
11 July 2007 at 3:49 p.m.
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cath (Anonymous) says…
Roadkill, if it is all superstition why would you care if anyone said you were going to hell? I would never judge another human being like that. It is not my place. And, as a Catholic we hear that we are the ones headed to hell all the time, and it has never really offended me. And as far as the fullness of Truth, that means God has revealed Himself through the Church. It doesn't offend me if you do not believe that and I hold no ill will toward anyone who does not have the same beliefs as I do.
11 July 2007 at 3:53 p.m.
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b3 (Anonymous) says…
The only ones not held accountable are children.
11 July 2007 at 3:56 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“From a rcc pov: It would be correct, especially based on the current Pope's latest disaster with words, to equate the RCC with the church catholic, for as far as they are NOW concerned, all other churches are illegitimate, and therefore cannot be considered part of the Church catholic (or universal), OR the RCC.”
I think perhaps this is more of a disaster in reporting, and the rather convoluted nature of this theological debate. I don't think this is the exact position of the Pope or the RCC - but given that I'm from an protestant evangelical background, I'll not step into that particular stretch of water.
11 July 2007 at 4:04 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
absolutelyridiculous wrote:
“The Church is NOT here to judge.”
No, but those who belong to the Church do plenty judging. And that's another thing that irks me…people saying they don't judge and that they're just passing long information or warnings.
11 July 2007 at 4:07 p.m.
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cath (Anonymous) says…
b3 that is not true. anyone who seeks the truth although ignorant of the Gospel or the Church can be saved
11 July 2007 at 4:08 p.m.
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Roadkill_Rob (Anonymous) says…
Cath, you don't get offended b/c you're taught that if you do what the Church tells you, you'll be okay and avoid hell. I get offended b/c, first of all, it insults my intelligence and two, b/c it's rude and disrespectful.
11 July 2007 at 4:09 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
A very good article!
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200210/je…
The Atlantic Monthly | October 2002
The Next Christianity
We stand at a historical turning point, the author argues—one that is as epochal for the Christian world as the original Reformation. Around the globe Christianity is growing and mutating in ways that observers in the West tend not to see. Tumultuous conflicts within Christianity will leave a mark deeper than Islam's on the century ahead
by Philip Jenkins
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http://www.catholiceducation.org/article…
The Next Christianity philip jenkins
In looking back over the enormous changes wrought by the twentieth century, Western observers may have missed the most dramatic revolution of all. While secular movements like communism, feminism, and environmentalism have gotten the lion's share of our attention, the explosive southward expansion of Christianity in Africa, Asia, and Latin America has barely registered on Western consciousness. Nor has the globalization of Christianity — and the enormous religious, political, and social consequences it portends — been properly understood.
11 July 2007 at 4:17 p.m.
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EXks (Anonymous) says…
The Church never has said “if you don't believe in what we do, you are going to burn in hell.”
––––––— ahhh, maybe yes and maybe not….BUT…..
Let's put this statement in historical context …..”if you don't believe in what we (the catholic church) do, you are going to be KILLED”
1.The Crusades
2. The Inquisition
3. Mass extermination of indigenous peoples
4. Killing Jews for NOT converting during the Middle Ages.
5. Silencing Galileo
11 July 2007 at 4:21 p.m.
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cath (Anonymous) says…
Roadkill, I am not offended because I really do not care what someone who thinks they know something about my Faith does or says. Do you really not think Catholics are not insulted and their intelligence questioned all the time? How could it insult your intelligence and not mine also? If anyone tells another they are going to hell I would guess it shoul