Archive for Saturday, February 3, 2007

As society sees it, Obama is black

February 3, 2007


Apparently, it comes as quite a surprise to some people that Barack Obama is black.

I'm driven to this realization by the response to a recent column in which I referred to the senator as African-American. Many people wrote to correct me on that. Among the most memorable was a guy who said: "I heard his dad was a radical Muslim from Africa and his mom was a white atheist from Kansas City. If that be the case wouldn't he be half a black man and half a white man? If he's a half breed, shouldn't you do a correction?"

Then there's the gentleman who wrote following Obama's mild criticism of a recent comment by Sen. Joseph Biden to the effect that Obama was the first mainstream black presidential candidate "who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy." The e-mail writer saw Obama's response - he called the comment "historically inaccurate" - as a fatal misstep, sign of a philosophical alliance with the dreaded Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and it changed, he said, his view of Obama. "Up to now," he wrote, "I did not see him as an Afro American."

Most folks were less ... strident than these two, but the core concern was the same: Obama should not be identified as African-American.

To which there is an easy answer: I call him African-American because that's what he calls himself.

There is, however, another answer that is not so easy.

If Obama asked to be identified as biracial, I would accommodate him because I believe that, within broad limits, people should be allowed to define themselves as they please. But with that said, I must confess I've always found that term rather meaningless insofar as the African-American experience goes.

That's not to criticize anybody who feels compelled to honor a multiplicity of heritages. For the record, many - maybe most - African-Americans are multiracial. One of my ancestors was Irish. My wife has Japanese and American Indian forebears. But my point is less about how one sees oneself than about how one is seen by the world at large. And I'm sorry: you can be as "biracial" as you want; so long as your features show any hint of Africa, that world is going to give you the treatment it reserves for "black."

Assume for a minute Obama didn't have a famous face. Assume he was just another brother tooling down Main Street. Do you really think the cop who pulls him over for no good reason is going to change his tune if he is told Obama's mama is white?

"Oh. Sorry, Mr. Obama. I didn't realize you were BIRACIAL. Have a good day."

No way. You may be many things, but if one of them is black, that trumps the rest in terms of how the world sees you. Black is definitive.

Granted, this is, at some level, a silly conversation: as a scientific construct, race is meaningless. But as a social construct, it's anything but. So Obama becomes, inevitably, a Rorschach inkblot of our racial maturity. Meaning that what people see when they look at him so far seems to say more about them than him.

Which brings us back to Biden's remarks. I'm not qualified to judge the "nice-looking" part. But articulate? Even their critics would concede that Shirley Chisholm and the Revs. Jackson and Sharpton - all black, all former contenders for the presidency - talk real good.

Bright? They seems intelligent enuf.

Clean? I stood near Jackson in an airport once. He didn't smell.

What Biden surely meant to say is that Obama is the first black presidential candidate who is potentially electable. But what he wound up saying is revealing and what it reveals is not pretty. Biden was not the first. He won't be the last.

Meantime, I've got two words of advice for those folks who are surprised to learn Barack Obama is black:

Eye. Doctor.

- Leonard Pitts Jr., winner of the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for commentary, is a columnist for the Miami Herald.


just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

Powell and Rice are now unelectable for their disgraceful performance in BushCo, helping push the nation into the most ill-advised and poorly planned and executed war in US history.

jcantspell 11 years, 4 months ago

R.T race is such a touchy subject
This forum is not big enough to handle The on going endless debate. And im pretty sure that your statement will cause some one to call you a racist. Behavior may be the reason for the treatment "reserved" for blacks? Do you mean all blacks?

dianforsythe 11 years, 4 months ago

I don't understand why Mr. Obama would have to choose any ethnic group as he is the product of an American mother and African father - he is simply an American. I would feel better about him if he would not embrace part of his heritage and reject the other - why can't he simply be an American running for president? I want to vote for someone who has America's best interests at heart and not a select group.

jcantspell 11 years, 4 months ago

dianforsyth Even if Mr. Obama did not choose any ethnic group. The world around him would choose one or him. Sad but true

I Like to say I'm people colored

cuchulain9 11 years, 4 months ago

"people should be allowed to define themselves as they please."

Ok, all my ancestry is from Ireland, but I'm now defining myself as Swedish :) (with apologies to Woody Allen).

Obama IS biracial, now matter how others might define him. (I have this thing about 'reality', not popular in certain political circles, but true nonetheless.)

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

No, the genesis of RT's comments are quite simple (or should I say simplistic?)

Pitts is a libral, the topic of his editorial is race, therefore Pitts is a racist.

jcantspell 11 years, 4 months ago

j-a-b-o-t-b are you saying any one who talks about race is a racist?

jcantspell 11 years, 4 months ago

Blacks are a platform for Democrats; that's the problem. Now Democrats are jittery about Obama, so let's blame whitey (again). Separate and divide good one. Are not most democrats white! (Blame whitey) racist all ways that when they want to start truble.

jcantspell 11 years, 4 months ago

this was fun got to go to yoga by butt ill be back

stevehow 11 years, 4 months ago

Obama is simply the best candidate---having listened to several of his speeches through completion on C-span, it is clear to me, a white man, that no other candidate has a more sound understanding of the issues facing the country. I have studied his voting record in the Senate--and again he is the only candidate who has consistently voted on principle. As for "experience"----look what it has brought America today---the talking head "experienced" politicians have allowed the debacle in Iraq, buried us in debt, destroyed our environment, set in motion the worst anti-american feeling around the world ever, created a climate of complete corruption in Washington, done nothing while our economy is exported to China, allowed our education system to fall to the worst level of any developed nation, cemented our position as having the highest percentage of people in poverty of all but one of the top developed nations in the world.....I AM VOTING FOR OBAMA because I believe he is the best candidate---all this talk about "race" is irrelevant to what is best in a CANDIDATE!!!!!!

Claire Williams 11 years, 4 months ago

I think it is premature to jump to conclusions about who "is simply the best candidate". To be a responsible voter sir, you should look at all of the candidates.
Check Out:,_2008

for information and website links to all the candidates from both major parties and all third parties.

jvoran 11 years, 4 months ago

I hadn't thought about the issue until last night when it suddenly hit me how the "racial" factor influences and colors (no pun intended) our social and political actions in this and every country.

Barack Obama is as much "Caucasian" as much as he is "Black." No homo sapiens on this planet differs from any other by more than about .1% of their genetic composition. Why does Obama's African heritage give him a label? Without the expression of his father's genes through the somewhat darker skin coloring and the expression of those genes in the texture and appearance of his hair would he be separated through verbal and written description from "white America?"

Is John McCain described as the "Irish" or "Scotch-Irish" or "Scots" "White" candidate -- given the most probable heritage based on his surname? Giuliani's Italian heritage is mentioned in some articles. First of all, does it matter, and secondly does it carry the same "baggage" as Obama's "African" heritage?

For those who would deny the "racial factor" in social and political issues look at recent events squarely in the face and at your own assumptions and your actions based on those assumptions.

If those of Afro-American heritage -- or whatever is the politically correct term of the moment --describe their experiences as racist and form "Black" or "Brown" caucuses, is there perhaps a reason?

lwt76 11 years, 4 months ago

right thinker, Pitts job as an editorial writer is to write about what is relevant within his experience. Therefore, his experience as a black man in a white dominated society. Unfortunately our society has not evolved enough to disregard ethnicity and judge Obama for his political beliefs, voting record (simply the facts). As a society we will judge Obama on his ethnicity and as jcantspell says if he didn't define it, we would for him. Could you imagine if he publicly defined himself as white? The backlash from both african americans and caucausins would be terrible! White people would say - he's not white he looks black; black people would say he was hiding from his identity and a "sell out" etc...

I have to agree with Pitts when "you can be as "biracial" as you want; so long as your features show any hint of Africa, that world is going to give you the treatment it reserves for "black." ". We live in a society where we are very ethnically divided and therefore judged by this.

lwt76 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal_Davis... if only they were baseless racial suspicions.... the tone and content of your comment only proves his point. It is about perception and unfortunately for many perception is reality. There is nothing I can write to show you how biased and ignorant your statements are. I'm not saying that only the "white" population is guilty of this divide - it is a two way street. Unfortunately though power is held by the white majority and therefore we wield the power to make the changes, yet we don't, instead we continue to denegrate those that speak out and simply expose what is going on and calling it as they see it. Ignorance is bliss... but doesn't help anyone to make changes and evolve our society.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

Did you even read the editorial, Randall, or did you just go straight to your stock strawman argument to cover up your own insecurities about your own latent racism?

KWCoyote 11 years, 4 months ago

I had the impression that what Biden was getting at was that Sen. Obama has an upper-middleclass professional demeanor and in every respect sounds like a ruling-class guy instead of a brutha from the hood. Yet he just got to the Senate and most people aren't familiar with where he stands on the national issues of the day. Obama has a track record in the Illinois legislature, and he got a book published recently that from what I've seen is inspiring. Another guy with a stint in the Illinois legislature and little national experience won the Presidency and did pretty good---Honest Abe. Still, the press has been fawning over Obama as if he's Christ and the Buddha.

This flap is much ado about nothing, except for how touchy many Americans are about race. Biden is a top-quality candidate for the Presidency, and if Obama goes for it and gets it, he'll do fine too. There are many outstanding Democrats who have declared or are considering it, so let's just give the campaigns some time to get their views and concerns expressed in a collegial way.

yourworstnightmare 11 years, 4 months ago

Some of these comments (r.t.'s in particular) remind me of Stephen Colbert's "I don't see race" schtick.

"People tell me I'm white, and I take their word for it because I don't see race".

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"Why does it matter?"

You'll have to ask people like dambudzo, but he/she won't give you an honest answer.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

As one of the mutiracials to which Pitts refers, let me offer him, and Obama, some advice: when it comes time to complete the "race" section of any document, be it an employment application, or a resume, leave it blank. It just doesn't matter.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

and, Pitts, and Obama, if you would quit talking about it, so would everyone else.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

Society sees Obama as black, I don't think most people make the distinction that he is bi-racial.

The classification comes from the history of slavery and the "one-drop" rule. That being if you had any African blood in you, Afro-Am/Black was your race.

Many times this is carried into today, even through the uncounscious. For example, Tiger Woods is considered a black golfer, Derek Jeiter accepted the Hank Aaron award, Hally Berry is often refered to as a sucessful "black actress", etc, etc. And If Obama happened to become President, he would undoubtably be called the "first black President" (except by those who consider that to be Bill Clinton's title).

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

Just as I suspected, Randall-- you're just being defensive about your own not-so-latent racism.

You don't have to stay that way, if you desire to progress beyond your present neandertal level. It's your choice.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

Regarding the "one drop rule," it appears that it was Obama who chose to identify with the "black" side of his lineage, even though his black father was absent, and he was raised with his white mother and her parents as a child, neither white nor black. It also appears that Barack did not decide he was "black" until his teen years....;

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

And, if we have lots of drops, what does that make us?

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

Does one "round up," "round down," divide, or multiply?

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

Division is wrong; definitely, no dividing.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

Godot, I'm not sure you grasp what I'm saying. It did not matter what Obama "chose" his race to be , society had already decided for him that he was black. This thinking (which I'm not saying is morally correct) goes back to the "one drop" rule, meaning if you have any African blood you were considered all Black. It didn't matter how many other "drops" you had, you were still considered black. I think this same mentality exists in society today.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

The only people who recognize, or even remember, the "one drop rule" are the ones who take the time to research it and revive it, thus undoing a generation of societal work meant to overcome such racism. Give it up. It just doesn't matter now.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

I disagree Godot, I think the "one-drop" rule is still prevalent in the subcounscious of the American mind, note my examples above.

"It just doesn't matter now"

Are you saying that race doesn't matter in America anymore? That's just funny.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"It just doesn't matter now."

Are you serious? Do you really think that no one will take note of Obama's (apparent) race if he becomes the first African-American (or choose your favored descriptor) major-party nominee? Do you honestly believe it will have no effect on who a large percentage of voters choose to vote for?

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

"Posted by right_thinker (anonymous) on February 3, 2007 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal) Das, Pitts is the one talking about it constantly, like Dems.....he is a racist. I am not a racist, I merely point out the obvious. As far as left leaning, yes I disagree with all left leaning ideology."

Paraphrase: Why can't he just shut up about the reality of an unfair world, and let me enjoy my birth heritage as the powerful majority?!

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

OMG Marion what a find! Gee that just says it all.

I can't believe that America was racist in 1858, can anybody else? You must be a history professor with insight like that Marion.

Ha Ha HA!

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

Posted by Randal_Davis (anonymous) on February 4, 2007 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So what if "society labels" Barack Osama black? So what?

So Everything Randal, that is the entire point of the editorial. Society sees Obama as black. This alienates him from certain sections of white voters. However, if he tries to pander to his white heritage who could lose support from black voters. He is in an unusual situation.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

Yes, MKH, race is not supposed to matter anymore. Some of us work very hard at not making race an issue in the way we interact with others, in the way we raise our children and teach them to interact, and in the way we view the future; others base their lives and careers on the opposite.

When the topic is politics, and fitness for public office, the only things that should matter are the issues, and the mind and the heart of the candidate.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago

Regarding Condi Rice, there is a person who would make a good presidential candidate.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

True Godot, that idealism is what Utopia must be like. But unfortunately that is not the real world, the one most of us live in.

I would love it if we were all holding hands and singing Kumbaya, but it's not happening.

"race is not supposed to matter anymore"

Yeah it's not politically correct anymore, but that didn't stop it. Just look back at some of the comments from your fellow Lawrence citizens in this thread, or many other threads...racism exists.

In the Northern Georgia town where my father was raised the Klu Klux Klan STILL holds parades on Main St....tell them that "race is not supposed to matter anymore", I'm sure they will recieve your ideas with open liberal minds.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal, I get it. Your the typical adult white male who is very threatened by the rise of the black man in modern society. Your fear is showing and it's really rather sad. I'm sure you felt much more comfortable in the good ole boy system.

Godot 11 years, 4 months ago


And in the Kansas town where I was raised, there are still celebrations of maleness, subsidized by taxpayer dollars, otherwise known as college football and basketball, where women are subjugated to the roles of cheerleaders, or Bling on the arms of the men in power.

Lots of those men are black, some are white.

So, life sucks.

Get over it.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

"Get over it"

Get over what Godot? I'm not crying, just trying to bring you back to reality.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

I'm sure that those males who are subjugating women to various roles are also discrimitory of powerful women like Hillary. Just like racist whites are to Obama, and racists blacks are to every powerful white male.

Thanks for proving my point.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

"I can't be a racist, my kids have black friends!!"


hahahahahahaha Thanks, I needed that.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

"And I even let them into my house!"



Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Am I the only one who caught the Blackie comment, or is that not considered racist anymore?

As a "half-breed" myself, I identify with black; or consider myself that. And it's funny, beacuse when people say i'm half, so i'm just as much white, I tell them I use the KKK rule. If a truck load of KKK members pull up, what would they be more apt to assume I am. Black or White.
Most of the time it gets an akward smirk, not knowing whether to laugh or not, but it plays on what the article writter said. It's all a perception. No one would consider Obama white. Period. To argue why can't he be, is usually a platform for people who just want to argue against what is black. And if they are well spoken, liked, and smart, then they can't be.

As far as Randall and RT: You act as though blacks and other minorites don't still suffer. As though having a month of trivia and a couple of grants solves all the problems. The reason people "complain" is beacuse they have a legitimate complaint/concern, that hasn't oviously been fully answered.

And if complaining about being a political pawn, blatent racial profiling, and in many instances, being a second class citizen...still, makes one a racist, then count me in.

It's people with your outlook that continue to drag on something that should be beneath us by now, but until you and any other subsequent thinkers like you die out, it will continue to be a battle that we could better put our efforts elsewhere.

Emily Hadley 11 years, 4 months ago

We do acknowledge race. The issues are still quite complex and very important to understand. You have to get past being unable to even discuss it (without flipping out and name-calling) if you want to progress.

We, both as a state and as a nation, are infantile in our ability to live together and uphold racial equality, and it will be an awfully long time before we recover from the economic disparity that racism has created and upheld, as well as the staggering domino effect that that racism and disparity has on every aspect of our lives.

I am much more afraid of running into "right_thinker" in a dark alley than I am of running into Mr. Pitts.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

That article says nothing of value, just so you know. Nor does it sustain a point, admittedly, a hard thing to do since it doesn't come to the point until the last few paragraphs.

Would you admit that it's possible that these interpretations are solely your own? By "your" I must add, I refer to yours and the people who's articles you linked.

Maybe it's that "hate crime" sells more than "crime." Who knows? Not I.

And not you.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

Oh yeah, and a google search led to several articles about the Carr's on the national stage, inluding a spot on CNN that would have required a pre-printed article as well, since they assumed some foreknowledge, within a few hits, so your writer is also lazy or a liar. Just an FYI.

Linda Endicott 11 years, 4 months ago

So somebody noticed that Obama is black? Or would be considered black?

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, it doesn't matter to me, but considering that we've never had a president who was black before (or even just considered black), the odds are probably against him.

Hey, did anyone notice that Hillary was female? They did? Why should that make any difference?

Yet it does. Whether it should or not, everyone here knows that it will make a difference on her chances of winning. Just as everyone knows that being considered black will make a difference in Obama's chances.

Should it be that way? No. But you're not going to change all of society by election time.

Just because racism, or sexism, is technically against the law, and not PC anymore, doesn't mean they don't still exist in America.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

"Most visitors to Free Republic are attracted to our very popular (and, warning: addictive) conservative news and discussion "

That sounds to be unbiased.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Haha Randal, that is simply fantastic!

It must be nice to live such a life where racism and equallity are normal parts of your society. Now if you would like to join us back in the real world.

How ignorant to think all is well, and it's just blacks complaining to do so. That's the conservative thought process of everyone wants something for nothing and all minorities do is complain about something that happened a long time ago, bearing no resemblence to the actual present where your thoughts are the ones that only prolong the racism.

You're probably one of those guys who say the white male is the most discriminated against person in the

You share more with neo-nazis then you do the basis of what this country SHOULD stand for.

Oh, and I like the link. So, it's to be understood that blacks never invented anything, and given your thought process, probably good for nothing but cheap labor, but now that slavery is over.....what are we good for.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Laughing stock would be that the conservatives shot themselves in the foot, then ther stomach, then the arm, and then the face.

Do dems pander to ethnic groups, sure, but is it better then sonservatives just not caring, you bet.

And Randal, that was a very valid point comparing you to a NEO-nazi. The fact that you feel like your being attacked beacuse your white, and all your power is dwindling, so you hold on to your racist sentiments and blame other peoples problems on the fact that they are lazy, inept, you fill in the blank, and you as a dominant white male should, and will be the eventual victor in your battle against self pity.

By the way you talk, it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't believe the holocost happened, you blame all muslims for terrorism, blacks for crime, mexicans for tarnishing this country. You should take your self imposed elitism and jump in traffic. Probably the most productive thing a righty could do for betterment of all.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

Right-thinker: Errrr, wha?

Sometimes, I swear, it's like you stop actually talking and just start leaking words. They're coming out, but they don't actually connect to anything.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal, just beacuse your ignorant, and try to form it into some intellectual babel, doesn't mean it's so.

All you have spewed from the begining is racist intolerance, and blamed the media for progressing some type of pity for the blacks.

How many other racist comments could you possibly make, or refrence before your realize your only part of the problem and in no way close to helping solve it.

It's not about not letting people voice their opinions, it's about talking about an issue that's serious, and since your on top, any counter arguement is left biased and with no merrit. As though you being some type of super trooper for the O'Riley army proves anything you say to be correct.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"it is time to speak with a therapist to address your deeper issues."

Given your obsessive defensiveness over your not-so-latent racism that you have on full display in this thread, perhaps you should heed your own advice, Randal.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

That ignores the many variances and singularities of the many diverse societies and communities of people that make the human race interesting.

Windlass: Your focus of time is too short. Widen your perameters. Or don't, but your assertation is too foolish to take seriously, which makes you the same.

werekoala 11 years, 4 months ago

"They avoid the overwhelmingly good news about our economy at any cost."

As silly as the rest of the debate is, I take exception to this claim in particular. By no shape is our economy in "overwhelmingly" good shape. Corporations are seeing high profits. So are CEOS and the upper class.

But for the average Joe, things aren't too good - wages aren't keeping up with costs, benefits are disappearing, health insurance premiums are rising at 6 times the rate of wages, and there's less job security than ever. Productivity and working hours have both increased 33%, yet wages have only risen 11% in the same period.

What I'm trying to say is that the value of the NYSE is only one measure of the strength of our economy, and a silly one at that.

werekoala 11 years, 4 months ago

"Liberalism is second only to terrorism as the most harmful influence ever inflicted upon our nation a close second at that."

This is a really, really stupid thing to say. One of the most hysterical hypocracies I see today is the way "conservatives" are able to demonize the liberal ideas of today, while simultaneously embracing the liberal ideas of yesteryear.

Like having a 40-hour work week? Or the US Pharmacopia that regulates drug standards and purity? Or civil rights for women/minorities? Or a ban on child workers? Or worker's comp? Or clean food and water standards? (and so on. . .)

All of these were "liberal" causes 100, 70, or 40 years ago. Yet rare is the conservative today who will take a stand against these advances. I doubt any of the conservatives on this forum would, thus making them all "liberal", had they been born a few decades ago.

And in 30 or 40 years, the "conservatives" of the future will have given up their futile rear-guard actions of today, and will claim they would never dream of opposing such obvious benefits as universal health care, gay rights, and abortions.

Instead, I'm sure they'll have some new cause to rally to, and be no more willing in the future to admit to error in the debates of the present day; than they will today admit to error in the debates of the past.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago


So taking your platform that liberals are using race and sexual orientation to get votes and equating that to nearly terrorism is so absurd that words defy me.

While that's the dems agenda, pumping fear into the very soul of every American to the point where they stop trusting eachother, seems to acceptable behavior to provide support for their agenda. Not to mention the oversight of sexism and racism, and sprinkling a lil tax cuts for big business and you have the decline of the American culture. Congrats!

I just hope your one of the few so you don't have to suffer with us lil people.

werekoala 11 years, 4 months ago

"This economy is so good that there are millions of illegals dying to get into this country!!"

Having a surplus of low-rent jobs doen't relfect a vibrant economy. Far from it, the influx of illegal workers, along with outsourcing/globalization, is one of the major factors worsening the lot of the american worker.


"President Bush's tax cuts are working. Keep up the good work!"

President Bush's tax cuts have been an unmitigated disaster -- tax revenues from increased economic activity have come nowhere close to equaling the lost revenues from the tax cuts. And believe it or not, it is important to balance our nation's budget - something the Republicans failed to do horribly over the past 6 years (cut spending? - a little easier to preach about than to actually do, huh?)- even failing, at the end, to pass the normal spending bills.

Plus, if you're going to send kids across the world to die, the least you can do is not cut taxes and then tell them, sorry, this is all the support we can afford you. I can't think of another wartime tax cut in history -- can you?


"Productivity is up because of advances in technology."

No, it's up for a number of reasons - including the fact that most salaried people work 45-50 hours a week, and the changes in labor laws under bush reclassified hundreds of thousands of workers as "managers" exempt from overtime compensation.

Most organizations have cut all the fat, and half of the the meat as well - one person is typically required to do the job of two, or be left with no job at all. You can't keep going on like that forever - something has to give.

I'd be curious - what major advance in technology in the last 5 years are you attributing a 33% growth in productivity to?

===== "During the ninties the NASDAQ and NYSE was the ONLY measure the liberals used to measure the economy."

Hah, only if you're completely ignorant. The measure I'd use for determining the strength of the economy in the 90s would be the same I'd use today: Median wage growth vs. cost of living and inflation, and the income disparity between the wealthiest 1% and the middle percentile of workers. In the 90s, all figures were strong, these days, they are horribly weak.

The NYSE has historically been a good measure of the nation's economic health because the economy has been relatively isolated, and the trickle-down effect worked, at least in part. For instance, a company might close down a factory in NY but open one in OH, so the $$ stays in the economy. Nowadays, a company can fire half its staff and replace them with Indian tech support, and make a bundle while cutting billions out of the domestic economy, making stock values increasingly less useful in determining overall economic health. hell, even in the 90s they were overinflated.

werekoala 11 years, 4 months ago

"You're talking crazy. Those are all conservative issues."

You're high -- the platform of the American Communist Party in the 1920s was something along the lines of a 40-hour work week, overtime, an end to child labor, Social Security, and workman's comp.

Conservative forces opposed every single one of those issues. Historically, they want a government that governs least. and each of those advances represent an increase in the power of government. Yet they are so obviously beneficial that no conservative today would dream of attacking them.

I'll give you $10 if you can find a reputable citation for conservative championship of any of those causes.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

"Posted by Dambudzo (anonymous) on February 5, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course it does. That's the idea. But, I guess liberals like comparing and judging people."

No, I think liberals are all for tolerance, aren't they? Personally, I think both the tolerance and the no-dileniations philosophies miss the boat on reality. Of course, that's what happens when you view life in black and white.

errr. . . metaphorically speaking.

For that matter, why IS it black and white? I guess to call it as it is, soft pink and burnt umber, is too complicated for daily use. . .

drewdun 11 years, 4 months ago

Right-wingers have trouble dealing with reality. This is apparent reading their comments on here regularly. Really sick, sick people.

BTW, I'm glad you found a new soulmate rt. Or maybe randal is the new incarnation of con-man (then again, maybe not; he can at least form grammatically correct sentences unlike your former intellectual wh**e).

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

The thing I like about you Right-Thinker, is how you can post that, and that other one where you called blacks a fringe group, and then still pull that outraged high-road hurt feelings schtick with a straight face. Literarily speaking, of course.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"Gotta love that eternal doom & gloom of the Angry Left. Lol:"

No one appears angrier than you on this thread, Randal.

ksmoderate 11 years, 4 months ago

Reading the word "Libism" oddly makes me crave a beer or a nice jigger of whiskey. Is it 5pm yet?

Centrist 11 years, 4 months ago

Mr. Obama is "African-American" in the TRUE sense of the word, unlike the multitudes of other Americans who call themselves that.

If you're born here and you do not have a parent born in Africa, then you are not African-American.

It's time to get past the hypocrisy.

Centrist 11 years, 4 months ago

And while I'm at it .... Native Americans are left out of the political discourse altogether. How must they feel when every single day, there are these discussions about "black" and "white" issues, like there are only two major races in this country?

ksmoderate 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal, a little compassion is in order.

Stop. And think.

If you were a Native American in 1870, wouldn't you feel as if the Whites were stealing your land?

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

It's a good thing that there is the internet for people like Randal. Without it, he would simply simmer in his shack plotting revenge on his co workers at McDonalds.

I would love to have one of these angry lower class blackies he speaks so highly of in front of his face and see how much he would truely assert his whiteness.

But it won't, he'll cower down, and still tell people he's not racist beacuse he has one black friend. God bless the internet right Randall!

Oh, and it's cowards like you who spew racist intollerance on the internet that fuel the fire to overcome it, and in doing so not only prove the point, make it a national issue that will be resolved.

Again, thanks.

Carry on.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal, the instant you start calling people blackies and grouping people into certain standards of living and action, yes, you do become a racist.

I'm sure it stems from some trauma that happened when you were young by a minority hence your otherwise comical approach to viewing life.

I'm glad I live in a community where you are the minority.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

That such conversations have been gaining volume and attention is great. Confronting this issue and forcing resolve is just exactly what folks like me are doing.

So being racist against what you think is racist, gains what? More ignorance? Your debating skills are about as helpfull as a hole in a condom.

Gabe Hoffman 11 years, 4 months ago

Randal, you are so far off that you can't possibly be offended by what you say. At this point your just trying to get a rise out of people. By someone getting mad that your being racist, and then calling them racist, or accusing them of being their stereotype when provoked proves nothing aside that you know how to piss people off. good trait! And when hit with resistence you dig into your good ol' boy goody bag and pull out any and all racist comments you can think of. And if you don't think you're racist, you are sadly mistaken.

No one has called you whitey, and as far as confrontation, it's a valid point to say you wouldn't be racist in front of someone, because you wouldn't, hence your endless internet banter.

I'll be the big boy here and just leave it alone, because it hasn't been an intellectual conversation, rather, how mad can you get people.

You must be real popular in the chat rooms and forums.


just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"the most vocal angry minority group with their endless bitter bitching about the past and petty crap."

No, the angriest minority is the angry white male loser who is no more creative than to resort to their not-so-latent racism as the catchall excuse why they are such losers -- and you're exhibit # 1, Randal.

jonas 11 years, 4 months ago

hahaha. This one got pretty nasty, didn't it?

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