Archive for Wednesday, December 5, 2007

Europe shares concerns about weapons capability

December 5, 2007

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— A surprising U.S. intelligence assessment that Iran shuttered a nuclear weapons program in 2003 has done nothing to diminish concerns over Iran's defiance of UN Security Council demands or its lack of transparency, analysts and Western diplomats close to negotiations said Tuesday.

Some analysts said the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate report - which ran counter to Bush administration arguments that Iran was pursuing a weapons program - seemed to sink talk of military action.

Still, diplomats familiar with negotiations, including high-level talks in Paris this weekend among major powers, said the European allies as well as Russia and China understand that Iran needs to be pressured in order to abide by its commitments to explain its nuclear program. A third round of economic sanctions, now under discussion, is still a viable option, they said.

"The question of clarity remains," said Cristina Gallach, aide to European Union envoy Javier Solana who expressed disappointment last weekend after meeting with Iran's nuclear negotiator Saeed Jalili. "We've been prudent. As far as we can tell, our policy of dialogue and pressure should not change based on this report."

One European diplomat said the new intelligence report "was surprising" and "set a far different tone for the U.S.," but "the possibility of sanctions remain." The diplomat added, "We still want Iran to give us good reason to trust them."

Comments

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

Of course, they are concerned, but it's a concern rooted in hypocrisy. Nuclear weapons, and nuclear technology in general, present grave risks for all living species, including humans, regardless of which country deploys them.

It's time for the US and other nuclear powers to fulfill their obligations under Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaties and begin serious efforts to disarm. Until that happens, criticizing Iran or any other country for wanting similar weapons will ring hollow.

ksdivakat 10 years, 5 months ago

Ok I just have a question that I hope someone can answer...last night on the news I heard them play a blip-it of what bush said about the Iran nukes, he said "they have been, and still are, and will be a threat, as long as they have people who have the knowledge to make a nuclear weapon" So he went from saying that they WERE making necular weapons to now saying that they are dangerous because they may have people who have knowledge on how to make a bomb....so my question is.....how do you address that?? Do you just blow Iran off the map so that in case there is somebody with knowledge, then they will get blown up?? That question actually came from my 14 y/o as she was watching it with me, and i didnt have an answer so im asking the good people on the blog today.......Just what is the intent with Iran?? Im confused and dont know!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"Just what is the intent with Iran??"

Fearmongering. And the posts of the BushCo sycophants that are sure to follow today will show that with about 30% of the US population who are Dittoheads and Faux News consumers, this tired method will continue to work.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

Thanks for proving my point, as I'm sure you'll continue to do all day, RT.

drake 10 years, 5 months ago

ksdivakat asks "Just what is the intent with Iran?? "

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gives us a pretty good indication w/ his own quotes:

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

"Israel is destined for destruction and will soon disappear" Israel is "a contradiction to nature, we foresee its rapid disappearance and destruction."

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim...."

"There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world, ... The World without Zionism."

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,"

"All over Europe and the countries under Western rule, an anti-Jewish movement has been concocted. The climate of propaganda and psychological warfare on the one hand and on the other hand using the issue of ovens burning human beings, they have concocted a myth of deprivation and innocence for the Jews of Europe."

"With God's help, the countdown button for the destruction of the Zionist regime has been pushed by the hands of the children of Lebanon and Palestine . . . By God's will, we will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future."

"A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel."

Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish."

ksdivakat 10 years, 5 months ago

Wow...you guys are all very smart when it comes to politics, even if you dont agree both sides have very valid points. I guess I just want to know what the President plans to do with Iran since he said that "if they have people who have knowledge of making anuclear weapon then they are dangerous" What does that mean?? Does he want to blow up all of Iran in case somebody there knows how to build a bomb?? I must say that I do believe that we cannot allow another country to touch israel or we will face the wrath of a very angry god, I know alot of you dont beleiev it and thats fine, im not trying to debate the issue, i just want to know what are we gonna do about it, should it happen?? And how the heck does the government know that they arent building bombs? How do they know that iran stopped that years ago?? Are they taking Irans word on that??or have there been weapons inspectors in there?? I need to educate myself fast on this as the election is in 11 months and i want to be an informed and make an educated vote for whomever is the better candidate.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"Just what is the hypocracy (sic), here?"

Perhaps if were to educate yourself a little, you would be able to see that I clearly pointed out the hypocrisy.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

Yet again, W has made us look like fools to the rest of the world and lied to Americans and the world. It's going to make it difficult for them to follow a US lead even if there is a good reason to do so because they will be skeptical of us. This is a monumental blunder at the hands of W's administration that will cost us dearly for years to come. They knew about the contents of the NIE around June 07 and still put forth the scare tactics.

Bush's brain, whoever that might be today, should advise him not to do anymore press conferences. He just ends up looking shameful and ridiculous. They've lost all credibility across the board. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. It is about trust in our government.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is crank without absolutely no power to do anything except make stupid pronouncements, in contrast to cranks like Bush and Cheney, who not only make stupid pronouncements, but have the power to destroy the world, which they have shown the very real intent to do.

The real leadership of Iran, although they are superstitious cranks just like our fearless leaders, know that they'll immediately be hit by the Israelis with devastating results. While I agree that MAD is a mad way to operate the world, right now, it's all we have.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"Still can't answer the question, can you?"

I answered it, but you're like the the little kid stuck on the question "why?" no matter what response it elicits.

Fatty_McButterpants 10 years, 5 months ago

"just another bozo" - I believe that many people said that the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese army were just "crank[s]" and had "absolutely no power to do anything..." and they beat the most advanced military that existed at the time.

Also, I love your condescending comment toward ksdivakat. As though she's just not smart enough to grasp your oh-so-wise comments. Please. You read like every other person in the world who loves to bash the President, but at the same, offer no viable solutions. You love to protest, but actually participating in the process, to try and make it work, is beneath you. But I guess that is just for the uneducated peasantry, right?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

And yet you are unconcerned that two of the most belligerent people in the world control a military that spends more than the rest of the world combined. That's priceless idiocy, DL.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

LIke I said, they are cranks, but even most cranks aren't suicidal-- lust look at our cranks-in-chief-- both of them draft-dodging chickenhawks.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"How them sour grapes tasting, buddy?"

If by grapes you are referring to the disasters they have inflicted on this country, pretty damn sour.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"But I suppose to a supporter of such noble world leaders as Hussein, Chavez, and Ahmadinejad,"

I don't support them any more than I support Bush or Cheney. But it's Bush and Cheney who think it's OK to invade and occupy anybody they don't like.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"Talk about hypocrisy!"

Still clinging to that willful ignorance just like you do your favorite blanky.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

"Have a good Christmas, bozo, I'll be in Tortola."

Awesome, PA. Sounds like fun. Have a great time!

drake 10 years, 5 months ago

flock of jayhawk,

The NIE report was released on Monday and Bush was briefed on it last Wednesday. Your claim that Bush new about it in June is a lie.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

drake (Anonymous) says:

"flock of jayhawk,

The NIE report was released on Monday and Bush was briefed on it last Wednesday. Your claim that Bush new about it in June is a lie."

Try again. NBC News reported, and several news correspondents from different agencies in the press conference pressed him about this, that the latest NIE was out in June and that Cheney's office prevented it from becoming public until now.

Before you try to call me a liar, check your facts.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

DirtyLinen, The fact that there is worldwide concern about Iran is no mystery. In fact, if you can digest the headline and the story within, other countries around the world have no good reason to depart from the path of NPT. It sure makes the case more difficult when the US has cried wolf, though.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

In W's own words at his press conference, he said that he was told some time ago that "there was new information". He was asked by members of the press corps whether he had been advised not to keep beating the drums after that revelation and he said he was not told that. Now why would they ask that question? Because it raises a bunch of questions about the situation and the press corps pounced on it.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

DirtyLinen, Think NPT. That may get you thinking in the correct context. Besides, that's what they are referring to. What would happen if the world walked away from NPT? It has nothing to do with liberal/conservative, but with a multilateral treaty. Leave it to you to portray it that way.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

DirtyLinen, You still aren't getting it. The rest of the world is interested in having Iran, at least, comply with the NPT. Right now, Iran is not. They (Europe, Russia, and other signatories) are very intersted, as they should be, in pressuring Iran to comply with the NPT that the Iranian government signed in 1968.

When the US is out there claiming WWIII is eminent and even threatening the possibility of military action for Iranian nuclear weapons programs -- clearly an effort to convince other nations of the world that they need to go along with us on that -- while at the same time we have reason to believe that there is no Iranian nuclear weapons program, it makes us look like either fools or liars, take your pick.

The NPT effort is still in place. Other countries that are exerting pressure needed to state, despite the obvious misstatements and misleading of the Bush administration now that the latest NIE is public, that there is a reason to continue with pressure on the Iranian government to comply with NPT. So, you get the headlines and articles that you read and misinterpreted.

I hope that it is a bit clearer to you now as to what I mean.

drake 10 years, 5 months ago

Can anyone think of anything that happened in 2003 that would have made the Iranians stop their quest for a nuclear bomb?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"Just for the record, bozo : you did know there's a difference between non-proliferation and disarmament?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty#Second_pillar:_disarmament

The NPT's preamble contains language affirming the desire of treaty signatories to ease international tension and strengthen international trust so as to create someday the conditions for a halt to the production of nuclear weapons, and treaty on general and complete disarmament that liquidates, in particular, nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles from national arsenals. The NPT's Article VI elaborates on the preamble's language, urging all State Parties to the NPT, both nuclear-weapon states and non-nuclear-weapon states, "to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control."

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

drake (Anonymous) says:

"Can anyone think of anything that happened in 2003 that would have made the Iranians stop their quest for a nuclear bomb?"

According to W, the NIE says that it was the stick-and-carrot approach.

drake 10 years, 5 months ago

Hint: Something really big that happened in 2003 against a country that also had nuclear aspirations....

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"The NPT is basically worth about what the paper it's printed on"

Whatever you believe about the NPT, there is a double standard w/ regards to nuclear weapons. Cranks like Bush and Cheney get them, cranks like Ahmedinejad don't. And do I need to remind which country is the only one which has ever actually used them?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"So as I asked before, remind me again which country it was that Bush and Cheney go on the world stage and say "must be wiped off the map?""

Your two John Waynes aren't men of mere words. Two down, and at least two to go.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

DirtyLinen, answers in-line: "The only way Iran could not be complying with the NPT is if they are crossing the line between peaceful use and weapons use. Are you saying they have done so?"

That's not true at all. There are a multitude of ways that a signatory could be non-complaint.

"You said the president "has made us look like fools to the rest of the world" which is patently untrue, as Europe : no matter how you try to interpret the statements in the story : is in agreement with the president that the burden of proof is on Iran."

It is true that our President and his administration has made us look like fools. Since he has made a claim while at the same time had reason to believe that it is not true, that in itself would increase the burden on us multifold to prove that it is true. That is a bad position to put us in, especially when there is so much at stake. So, the rest of the world finds it necessary to move forward with efforts based on their own merits and apart from the President of the US. If you read some of the other articles currently circulating in the media concerning the matter and read a copy of the press conference, you'll see that is a huge matter that arises from this disastrous mistake.

"then the only way to assure that Iran does not make weapons is to keep them from enriching uranium."

That's one way, but not the only way. Why, then, would it be important to check to see if there is a weapons program? By your logic, just the possession of the technology to enrich uranium equals the possession of the capability to make a nuclear weapon, and that simply is not true.

"and in a pretty short amount of time have working warheads."

You have grossly underestimated the process required to clandestinely produce a nuclear weapon. I have not seen or heard of any intelligence estimate or assertion on the part of anyone, including our government, that puts that process at a "pretty short amount of time".

Your statement concerning NPT withdrawal is ridiculous. Anytime a party to NPT has withdrawn or even threatened to, it has gotten the intense attention of the world. To think that they could get in the scenario that you stated and not have some very serious consequences shows a lack of understanding and perspective of global relations. But that is consistent with the positions you have held up for display here.

What I thought was either very telling or just another "Bushism" is that he said "stick and carrot" rather than "carrot and stick". The way that usually works is that you hold the carrot out and if they don't take it, you use the stick to encourage them to do so. The other way around, you beat them with the stick without putting the carrot out there first. It seems to me that the stick and carrot approach probably doesn't have as much success as the carrot and stick approach, otherwise it would be more widely used.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 10 years, 5 months ago

"The question was which country did Bush and Cheney go on the world stage and say "must be wiped off the map?""

OK, I'll play along, even though I know you'll just ask "why?" again.

Remember the Axis of Evil, after which Iraq was essentially wiped off the map?

a_flock_of_jayhawks 10 years, 5 months ago

DirtyLinen writes,

"Somehow, in the Axis of Evil speech, I don't recall any mention of wiping them off the map, nor has that happened, despite your overdramatization"

Call it "nation building". Ring a bell?

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