Archive for Tuesday, September 26, 2006

Commissioners to decide fate of Iraq war referendum

September 26, 2006


The next theater for the war in Iraq may be Lawrence.

City commissioners are set to decide tonight whether to place a question on the November ballot allowing voters to call for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

The request - made last week by the Lawrence Coalition for Peace and Justice - is advisory in nature, but it already has sparked debate about what role the city should play in voicing its opinion about one of the more controversial issues of the decade.

"I'm wrestling with it," City Commissioner Boog Highberger said. "I think it would be good for our elected officials to know what Lawrence residents think about the issue, but I'm struggling with whether it is the role of city government to conduct an opinion poll.

"I'm afraid it could be awfully divisive for the community, and not accomplish much."

The issue may have a tough time winning the necessary three votes to be placed on the November ballot. Highberger was one of three commissioners who said last week that he was willing to consider the issue. Commissioner David Schauner was another, but he said Monday that he's now leaning against putting the issue on the ballot.

"It is such a complicated issue, it may not be appropriate for a referendum," Schauner said. "This is the most complicated issue you could ever ask to be flattened into an in-or-out type of decision."

That hasn't stopped other communities from doing it, though. The Wisconsin Green Party successfully placed a similar question on the April ballot of 32 communities in that state. Twenty-four of the communities, including Madison, home to the University of Wisconsin, voted to call for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

In Vermont, 56 communities had town hall meetings in March where citizens voted on the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. More than two-thirds of the communities approved of a withdrawal.

In 2004, San Francisco became the largest community to speak out on the issue. Voters there approved a referendum calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops by a 2-1 margin. Milwaukee has scheduled a similar vote for the Nov. 7 election.

Allan Hanson, a member of the Lawrence Coalition for Peace and Justice, said Lawrence has the chance to become part of an important national movement.

"This is a good way to get public opinion expressed in this country," Hanson said. "If we are the only community in the country that does it, nobody will notice. But if we are part of a groundswell, it can make a difference."

Reader poll
Should the Lawrence City Commission hold a townwide referendum on the Iraq War?

or See the results without voting


Opinions of Lawrence residents Monday on Massachusetts Street were mixed.

"It seems like it is much more of a federal issue," said Lawrence resident Gary Patterson. "It is not something you just simply decide to bring the troops home. Besides, our vote wouldn't matter."

Denise Diamond, Lawrence, has a nephew who is about to deploy to Iraq.

"He might be mad if the city did something like that, but I would support a vote on it," Diamond said. "I want us to do something to get the troops home. My nephew is 18 years old, and I don't think he has any idea what he's getting into."

Members of area veterans organizations said they had some concerns about calling for a public vote on the issue.

"All I can tell you is that I do know that what we're doing over there is the right thing," said Paul Benner, commander of Lawrence's Veterans of Foreign Wars post and a veteran of the first Gulf War in the early 1990s. "I don't have a lot of tolerance for uninformed people, and these folks calling for this seem to be pretty uninformed."


armyguy 11 years, 5 months ago

Just a big waste of money, why not put round a bouts to a vote? At least the city could do something about them.

ksmattfish 11 years, 5 months ago

City officials should stick with city issues. We vote... errr... Diebold elects federal officials to deal with national issues.

Sacerdotal 11 years, 5 months ago

Bogus; we need a rational Iraq strategy, but this is not helpful.

SettingTheRecordStraight 11 years, 5 months ago

A stupid idea. Don't make Lawrence a laughingstock with this baloney.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Those that say our military is not fighting for our country are liars. Yes, that means you Toni, toni tone. Anytime a serviceman or woman puts on the uniform and risks their life, under orders from the Commander and Chief, they are serving our country. How shameful it is that folks like Toni can sit at home here in Lawrence and be a Monday morning armchair quaterback to young men and women that demonstrate true courage and patriotism rather than stick a knife in the back of America by politicizing the war on terror for their own gain.

Whose the ruling class that's evil? 51% of the American public choose Bush, and by choosing Bush choose to stay the course and to fight radical Islam. The reality is, radical islam, individuals that strap bombs to children and women are "evil", not the majority of American's, America's serviceman and women, or our elected leaders as Toni, toni tone would claim in typical drive-by fashion.

It is highly interesting that individuals like Ttt88 will without the slightest hesitation condemn our servicemen and women for their bravery, but when it comes to condemning truly evil men and women like Osama bin Laden get mired for decades on end due to an intellectual constipation of this dialogue of debate called "we have to understand our enemy and can never pass judgment on them." Such mindset is why we cut an ran in Vietnam, such mindset is why Hilter rolled through Europe. It is amazing how Democrats as a demographic are not more christian, because their political philosophy towards national security resurrects Neville Chamberlain on constant basis.

Toni's fashionable condemnation of our servicemen and women by refusing to acknowledge their bravery accomplishes the same thing Fred Phelps does when he goes to funerals and vilely celebrates their deaths. Such intellectual feats are truly to be proud of. Its like a badge of intellectual prowess in Ttt88's liberal circles. But the rest of America honors their memory and thanks God that there are still men and women with a boiling ferver of love for the greatest country in the history of the world such that they are willing to caste themselves into the lion's den of hell without pontificating for decades on end as a result of intellectual constipation.

As for this retarded resolution to condemn the war, it illustrates how out of touch with their duties these City Communishers are. We all just want decent roads, sewers to flush our waste down, clean water and safe streets to live to raise our children. The prime meridian does not run through Lawrence, Kansas, as some mush heads in City Hall narccicistically believe. Regardless of whether you agree with the war, hate Bush and refuse to accept reality, pursuing such a resolution only serves to divert attention, money, man-power and resources away from the proper focus, providing the needs of the citizens of Lawrence.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

No, OBL, Al Z, and radical Islam's cause is NOT "ill-perceived" as you say. It is being correctly perceived as evil just as Hilter's cause was correctly perceived as evil. Keep up the good work though trying to sell the American people on the fact that our perception of the these murderers is "ill".

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Marion I would file a lawsuit for abuse of position and violation of admisistrative law.

Boog should have known better, I think some of his brain cells have melted.

He is however busy too with the EPA Office of Inspector General iInvestigation of Kansas Department of Health and Environment.

Yes it is true. They were notified the week of September 12, 2006 I believe.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

No doubt Toni it is your view that Nazi Germany's cause was "ill perceived" that allows you to compare the United States of America to it. You continue to enlighten us.

Steve Mechels 11 years, 5 months ago

I think we should put it to a vote over whether or not we should vote on the war! ;)

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Liberals->17 years->Pearl Harbor=United States Declares War

Terroist attacks started 1979->United States apathy->hundreds more die in embassys across the world->United States notes it on the news->U.S. servicemen killed in sidewalk cafe Spain->U.S. notes it on the news->U.S. ship gets bombed->U.S. talks about it for a few days-> 911-> finally U.S. takes action...Liberals yell "illegal" war...

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Great post Rationalanimal! Thank You! Of course tony88 will not understand your post. His/her liberal brain has been totally corrupted.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Roundabouts would probably stop terrorists.

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago


You don't have a clue how lucky you are.

shockchalk 11 years, 5 months ago

asbestos, thank you for the post. rational animal, thank you as well.

tony88, by all means, don't let the FACTS or the TRUTH get in the way of your vile, unpatriotic, ignorant, republican-bashing posts. After all, you are NEVER biased or wrong about anything. Maybe you should go back and read some of what you's very disturbing to say the least.

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago


The reason William the Great was able to balance the federal budget and amass a federal surplus was governmental fiscal policy called "pay-as-you-go."

You should google it and try to learn instead of ignoring years of Defense Department and Pentagon strategic/budget planning inre our military force preparedness. Clinton did exactly what the Defense Department and Pentagon requested him to do.

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago

Clinton did exactly what William Cohen, his Republican Secretary of Defense, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended he do inre the US military.

He worked hard with the military to make the necessary changes from a force designed to counter a massed Soviet threat in Eastern Europe, to a moblie force able to make fluid responses to international terrorism.

Perhaps your experiences lacked the scope to encompass these changes.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Besides the NIE has been released, and the AP got it WORNG ... TWICE on the same story> I never want to hear the statement the AP is "objective news organization" They are pro Hamas, pro hizbullah, anti BUsh, and anti American.

How do they call themselves "respected journalists".

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Did you see Right_thinker, that the Dems wanted a "Closed door" debate on the leaking of the NIE?

THat is going to lie at the steps of Sen. Kennedy and Sen. Durbin.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Good report...and I am sure the missing part of the document are the recommendations on how to stop or slow down the terroists. We really don't want that info OR do we? Wait...I can hear the liberals cry out for public access...and so it goes.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"Perhaps your experiences lacked the scope to encompass these changes."

What working on bases throuought Europe and Asia as well as the US??? Perhaps the limitations of your incarceration gives you the misleading perception that everyone is as limited in vision and experience as you.

Your hubris is absolutely psychotic and spooky...and is laced with a lot of "issues" NO ONE is that good or knows that much about a situation.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Boog should have known better, I think some of his brain cells have melted.

He is however busy too with the EPA Office of Inspector General iInvestigation of Kansas Department of Health and Environment.

Yes it is true. They were notified the week of September 12, 2006 I believe.

Wilbur_Nether 11 years, 5 months ago

shockchalk wrote: "tony88, by all means, don't let the FACTS or the TRUTH get in the way of your vile, unpatriotic, ignorant, republican-bashing posts."

Wow! tony88's posts are ignorant?

middleoftheroader 11 years, 5 months ago

RT your description of those two sides was brilliant... i couldnt have described a better reason to stay out of both lanes... incidently in times when i have veered to one side or another i have found that the right is SLIGHTLY better than the left

middleoftheroader 11 years, 5 months ago

though its worth noting that one must go left in order to pass those who move slowly on the right

not_dolph 11 years, 5 months ago

Thank goodness the commissioners are spending their "valuable" time on the important issues of te City of Lawrence. Never thought of us as being compared to Madison, WI, the "Cities of Vermont," or San Francisco...but way to go! What a laughing stock.

Sigmund 11 years, 5 months ago

Oddly, the City Kommission will not allow a vote on the SLT and other local issues but intend to waste their time and our money on issues they can have no influence on.

common_cents 11 years, 5 months ago

"I want us to do something to get the troops home. My nephew is 18 years old, and I don't think he has any idea what he's getting into."

Yep... the military NEVER tells these people what is going on. There are never any training sessions on poison gas, gunfire, paratrooping, or what to do should you be captured and tortured.

It's the policy of our military to get young men and women and keep them completely blind to what war is about. For that matter, they don't even tell them where they are going, they just hand them a duffle bag and put them on a plane... there are no windows on the plane either. They only know where they are going and what they are doing when the get there.

Or, they get the "we are going to hand out food to starving people" routine. THEN they put a gun in their hand for the first time and say, shoot or be shot.

Bad military people... they are evil to our kids.

sarcasm off again

Just remember, your grandparents and great-grandparents were kids when they fought to keep this country free from attack. You destroy their efforts with every breath.

What is happening now is nothing compared to what has happend in the past. Our grandparents and great-grandparents stood behind our country, loved our country and fought for our country. It is VERY evident. Get your crap together and start believing in yourselves again. We are NOT evil.

KS 11 years, 5 months ago

I agree with all of the above. If they want to know, send out a survey in the water bill. Otherwise, stay out of this. Not the duty of the City. Who's running that place down there? This is a non-issue for the City of Lawrence.

Stephen Roberts 11 years, 5 months ago

I have a few important isuues that also need to be on the ballot.

Do we need roundabouts?

Are they a waste of money?

Taste Great or Less Filling?

After you smoke dope, what is your favorite munchy?

Do you think one of our commisisoners uses illegal drugs?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 5 months ago

With an administration that lies to the American people about nearly everything, particularly this war, and a Congress that ranges from complicit to too timid to confront them on it, sanity has to come from somewhere.

Let's have the vote, and maybe they'll begin to get the message in Washington that it's time to stop the war now.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 5 months ago

Oddly, Sigmund, the commission is probably not going to allow a vote on this issue, and there has been no referendum proposal on the SLT presented to them.

Ceallach 11 years, 5 months ago

They can't agree on and set in place a rational plan for repairing potholes and sidewalks, but the commissioners have time to "wrestling" with the issue of war strategies in Iraq!!! It's now official, the inmates have taken over the asylum.

If people want their national representatives to know how they feel about Iraq they should contact them directly. This is just another indication that this commission is so very full of itself.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Ttt88 wouldn't know slander if Fred Phelps called his mother a right-wing/Pat Buchanan loving, homophobic conservative.

Toni, your only removed in body from the Fred Phelps protests at military funerals, but definitely there in spirit. Keep up the good work knifing our country in the back while young men and women are engaging terrorists in the middle-East so that you have the luxury of pontificating with your lib buddies at the Boog Pig about why our enemies hate us so much and how its our fault. It is a symetrical lack of courage that causes one to intellectually cut down those of truly demonstrative courage.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 26, 2006 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

by the way, rationalanimal, i never mentioned anything political. i don't stand with the democrats or republicans. the whole notion of doing so is completely flawed.

One wonders if tony88 even votes. You know what they say----if you don't vote, don't complain.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Nice back peddle of magnimous proportion Toni. Is that a flip-flop? or a cut and run? I can't tell which.

And no I don't want more troops to die, and I don't celebrate their deaths as you and folks like Fred Phelps do. I honor their memory by giving them respect in life and in death. I honor them by acknowledging they have died wearing the uniform of the United States military and subsequently whether or not I agree with the policy of the Executive Office, I concede that their blood was shed like all former U.S. soldiers with the intent to preserve the Constitution. I honor their memory by acknowledging they showed courage by willingly and bravely offering the ultimate sacrifice on the alter of democracy. Words you and liberals in this country don't understand because you're too busy making the argument that our enemies' causes are "ill conceived".

justthefacts 11 years, 5 months ago

so.....what did they decide last night? No follow up story today probably means they saw the light....

drewdun 11 years, 5 months ago

"Just remember, your grandparents and great-grandparents were kids when they fought to keep this country free from attack. You destroy their efforts with every breath"

Uhh, I thought they were fighting to keep us free, and doesn't that mainly mean freedom from government control of our speech? Once again, the right-wing is schizophrenic in their 'freedom-loving' authoritarianism. And by the way, common-cents, we the American people are not evil; YOU and the minority of people that support the GOP ARE evil.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 26, 2006 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"That sounds like something Al Zarqawi said to recruit more soldiers to fight his ill-perceived cause."

Thank you for showing everyone on here your true loyalty towards America. While individuals like Toni view the causes of men like Al Zarqawi as "ill-perceived", the folks living in a rational peaceful society see him for what he is, a cold blooded murderer. A man that ruthlessly delights in killing innocent citizens for his delight and to perpuate his radical views on the world. There were some in Europe that believed Hilter's cause was ill-perceived as well. Tell that to 6 million jews who were slaughtered b/c individuals like Neville and the neo-Neville Chamberlains didn't have the guts to call "evil" evil. Our 18 year old young men and women do and that's why they where the uniform. And that's why is so offensive when people like Fred Phelps overtly dishonor their sacrifice and individuals like toni intellectually dishonor their sacrifice by saying they aren't fighting and dying for our country. Your comments of Al Zarqawi's cause being ill perceived illuminates the liberal philosophy on national security perfectly. Thank you Toni.

drewdun 11 years, 5 months ago

"You chose to believe it because the news never"

It must be comforting to Republicans to believe that their leaders are paragons of truth and morality when all available evidence show just how false this perception is. Once again, active supporters of the Republican Party value their 'team' more than they value truth, their country, their Constitution, reality, and sadly, even more than the lives of our soldiers. Which leads me to reiterate: the Republican Party and their supporters are a cancer on our nation and democracy.

drewdun 11 years, 5 months ago

"Keep up the good work knifing our country in the back while young men and women are engaging terrorists in the middle-East so that you have the luxury of pontificating with your lib buddies at the Boog Pig about why our enemies hate us so much and how its our fault. "

Once again, I thought they were fighting for our freedom over there? Oh, that's right, you're a FASCIST; your definition of freedom is the freedom to agree with the Republican Party.

And as for 'knifing our troops in the back,' don't you think sending them to an unnecessary, illogical, and completely politically motivated war to be killed and maimed is a bit closer to actual violence towards them, as opposed to liberals supposed rhetorical violence in opposition to the war ? (As if speaking out against our troops continuing to die so Bush and his pathetic little sycophants like yourself can save face is violent.)

Active supporters of the Republican Party are the lowest form of human life.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

tony88 said

So you want more troops to die, rationalanimal? And you want to increase the terrorist threat? How unamerican can one get?

Do you really think these soldiers, sailors, and marines have no brain to understand what they are fighting for? Do you think they are all Republicans? Are they desperate to sign up because they do not have the intelligence to understand or reason? Did their recruiters lie to them?

As far as increasing terrorist threat they are about to release the document that you are basing your assumption on very soon. As with most things, the slanted media chose to pick up on what will sell papers and sell advertising because of increased sales. You chose to believe it because the news never

justthefacts 11 years, 5 months ago

What an utter waste of time for a city or county to even consider - let alone hold - a non-binding vote on this topic. For people who want their voices to be heard, attend a rally, write editorials, contact your FEDERAL elected officials (the ones who can actually set or could change current policies) and get involved in the electorial processes that lead up to changes you want to see. A county/city holding a non-binding election on a national agenda/policy/topic is useless and will waste tax dollars. Can't our local representatives actually do something that is not a joke?

Snoop 11 years, 5 months ago

After someone called my attention to this my first thought was to come up with some comment that could adequately convey my dismay with the very idea that the city of Lawrence would even consider doing this. "Considering" doing this tells me all I need to know. But I just don't care. If the city of Lawrence wants to be in the category of "liberal city of buffoons" then go ahead. Maybe Perky Katie will come to Lawrence and do her news broadcast from here. Air America can host a show from Liberty Hall. Bill Clinton can do a safe interview with someone on the channel 6 news staff, John Kerry might actually stop the damm train this time! Laughing stock or not I love Lawrence. If you libs want to feel like you did something, by all means vote on the issue. Dedicating time and money to meaningless crap is what you do best, right!

Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 5 months ago

and just what is this supposed to change?? nothing but the next few days of reading on this should be interesting, and entertaining.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 26, 2006 at 2:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is ridiculous. It reminds me of the "i know you are but what am i" bit.

While i'm insulting this nation as you so believe, i'll go ahead and say that Nazi Germany was rife with nationalism (just as you and your ilk are). And the Roman Empire was probably splendid for the rulers... while it lasted.

Good point tony88----some of us believe that it is your "ilk" that is destroying this country with your liberism. Our "nationalism" is standing behind the troops and letting them know that we appreciate them keeping our constitution alive, our liberties secure, and our nation safe. With the stroke of your keyboard, you let them know that they are stupid for joining the services, stupid for being in Iraq, and in being there, they are putting our Nation in jeopardy. If you think there are no Lawrence soldiers, saliors or marines who check this forum because they are homesick then you are living in a dreamworld. Even if you are anonymous, you are still heard throughout the world because of "Gore's" invention----the internet.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 26, 2006 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Our "nationalism" is standing behind the troops"

Exactly, but where is your REASON. Nationalistic passions should be suspect. Imagine if some good nationalistic Germans on the inside had seen through his evil and propaganda.

Let's turn that around---it took 17 years and Pearl Harbor before the United States took a stand against Germany due to the liberals who wanted to stay out because it was "just jews" they were killing. How many years have we waited as a country to fight back NOW and how many have died leading up to Iraq? Feeling better now about your stand...don't use Germany---the United States government did nothing to stop that genocide until it was almost too late.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Timeline is not started in 1979. Iraq provided sanctuary and money to terroist training camps.

Frankly, I wasn't trying to draw a comparison to German Nationalism. I was trying to show you just what your liberal stance has cost this country to date. Sorry you didn't get it. Liberals have affected this nation negatively throughout history. Apathy to the general population only lasts until something comes along to wake them up. I would say 911 did it.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"Attacking Iraq was not a part of the war on terror."

That would be your opinion and not supported fact. You may believe it, but that don't make it true.

" Liberals yell illegal war at Iraq, not at war on terror. Keep your facts straight."

OK get yours straight, it is NOT an illegal war. Congress voted on it AND continued to fund it. IT was the will of the people to do this. IF that will has changed, the congress will have a different makeup after the elections in November.

But calling it illegal when Congress gave the President the authorization (both Dems and Repubs) is lying on your part. The Authorization to use force in Iraq was what was needed to satisfy the WPA.

IN the Iraq Resolution, the WMD was one reason to Start up with Iraq, the other was to compel Iraq to comply with the UN Security Resolutions. That was done to satisfy libs that did not want the US to act UNILATERALLY.

Look how far that gets us with n> Korea or Iran.

As usualy libs have a very poor record of judgement with these types of countries.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

Oh, I am speaking of the present as well. You are speaking of presidents, I am speaking about the pressure liberals put on the public with their views. Just like your tactic on declaring my position to the Germany Nationalist. A calculated move to make one feel insecure about speaking out for America. I will dress red, white and blue, paint "God Bless America" on my house and volunteer for any effort to support the troops. I will campaign for who I think is best to lead our nation and I will be in the voting booth come election day. If that offends you tony88, I truly cannot apologize.

prairiepollyana 11 years, 5 months ago

tony88 you remind me of holygrailale. In fact, I would say you two are the post alike, i.e. your post of 3:34 P.M. today on this forum. The way you disqulify another poster and call their intelligence into question. Of course, everyone assumes that you are male due to your name. Everyone also refers to holygrailale as a female. It is good that this forum is anonymous after all. As I wrap my American Flag closer to my body, I am thanking the powers that be that there is NOT that many Liberal radicals in Lawrence after all.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Toni, you have derailed. I can see you down at the Boog Pig foaming at the mouth from anger. Yo, reality check, despite Al Franken's angry attempts, comparing America to Nazi Germany and Bush to Hilter is just totally beyond the bounds of reality. We were attacked on 9/11 by radical Islam. We were attacked for decades earlier by islamic extremists. The point of radical Islam is to convert by the sword. The systematic strategy of radical Islam is to first dominate the middle east. That's why murderers like Al Z, or as you say "men whose causes are ill-perceived", are in Iraq. The next step is to erradicate Israel off the planet. The next step is to convert the world by Jihad.

The reason islamic extremists hate America, is because we stand between tyranny and murder and say your going have to come through us first if you want to conquer and oppress the world. That's why it is so vile for folks like you and Fred Phelps to dishonor our servicemen and women in life and in death. They are willing to give their live for a cause that seeks peace and democracy.

Your are right in bringing Nazi Germany into the dialogue for comparison. But, where you and Al Franken, and other libs fundamentally fail in the comparison is by misapplying the comparison. That is, while you compare America to Nazi Germany, you should be comparing Nazi Germany to radical Islam. The historical facts just do not support comparing America in this conflict to Nazi Germany. For now, just relax, take a deep breath, and count down the days on your special edition Al Franken swimsuit calender until Bush is out of office. Yes, he will leave office, and another President will guide the country. If the American people choose a Democrat, then that's the will of the people. Until then, keep "x"ing the days off your calender. We all did it when Bill Clinton was in office.

Clinton's mamby pamby liberal wrist slapping is part of the reason why we are in the dilemma we're in. You see Toni, if someone doesn't do their job, someone else has to. Bush, is cleaning up from Clinton's failure to make tough decisions and stand up for our servicemen and women. True leadership is going forward in a cause that's right. Leadership is not failing to act because it will offend evil people. And yes, since you brought Reagan into the debate, Reagan took on the evil empire and brought down. The Soviet Russia was an evil empire. Reagan was the greatest President in the 20th Century because of it. Sorry to spoil your reading club fun by pointing out the bad fruits of authors like Lenin.

Lastly, you keep using the word "slander" as a passing shot. I don't think it means what you think it means. Kind of like "ill perceived".

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"It has been proven, therefore, it is not an opinion."

HOW has it been proven that it Iraq is NOT a part of the WoT??UBL thinks it is! Good enough for me, in fact the only people that believe as YOU do are liberal Americans who hate Bush.

"Mine is straight, i said "Liberals yell illegal war at Iraq..." I didn't say "the Iraq war is illegal". You seem to make alot of presumptions here."

You holler it is an illegal war every time. IF not true, why upset with the conditions????

GREAT post RaqtionalAnimal, GREAT POST.

Rationalanimal 11 years, 5 months ago

Yes, folks who love democracy do semi-worship the flag. Why, because it symbolically stands for transcendental concepts of peace, constitutional form of government, virtue, God, and freedom. You have not made an accusation that is to be ashamed of. The fact you made such an accusation is a further enlightment into the mindset of liberals as you have so aptly earlier demonstrated by saying the causes of Al Z and OBL are mis-understood. Well, the rational majority does understand Toni.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Here is the NIE in question. One needs to read ALL of it to get the gist of it.

It makes sense, and DOES NOT say what the libs want it to say.

Clearly, whomever leaked this NIE did it to try to pound on BUsh and the Republicans, however, this NIE does the exact opposite. It makes the statment that IRAQ MUST be won. There is no "wait n' see" then leave.

There can only be win.

Hard to take into the Nov. Elections with their current talking points.

Additionally, it renders this "City Vote" on Iraq meaningless, and the largest joke in these United States. WHAT A BUNCH OF BUFFONS!! It is NOT in the best intrests of the country..that is according to this democrat leaked NIE.

It is ironic is it not???

ksmoderate 11 years, 5 months ago


Any NORMAL person abhors the term "cut and run." It means nothing, and misrepresents many. Remember when RNC chairman Mehlman went on Meet the Press to try to change "cut and run" to "adapt and win?" didn't work so well, did it. I guess its indivisiveness didn't appeal to the average uber-right-winger.

Also, this report (the NIE) is not sensitive to our security. If it was, why is Senator Roberts calling for its declassification? By your reckoning, does that mean he hates america too?

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"Also, this report (the NIE) is not sensitive to our security."

The "sensitivity to our security" was not the point of the NIE being leaked. It was the patently false analysis and statement that the US Forces in Iraq made the terrorism threat worse for the United States. Not the case. Not what the NIE was stating or the concept behind this material.

Sen. Roberts called for and Pres. Bush declassified the NIE to rebute false claims posed by the leakers, mainly Sen. Durbin of Ohio, and Sen. Kennedy. IF they (Kennedy and Durbin) politicized the NIE, all that the Pres. did was let people see what was there.

That is called fair and balanced. It takes a truley open mind to see the objectivity of the Republicans on this one.

By your recokining on this KS ain't.. a moderate, you are a left winger.

middleoftheroader 11 years, 5 months ago

Buddhism speaks of "the middle way". On the Temple of Apollo is written the motto: "moderation" in all things". Mathematics extols the "Golden Mean". Essentially, they are all speaking of "balance", i.e., finding the perfect mid-point at which one does not list either too far right nor left but achieves a fine and delicate balance. When you think of it, our entire life is a kind of highwire "balancing" act as we attempt to stay on the "straight and narrow" path that will lead us on to our goals and dreams. If we get "off track" by going too far left or right we have to "rebalance" or harmonize ourselves in order to get back "on track".

ksmoderate 11 years, 5 months ago

If I'm a left-winger, then the uber-right wing has dragged our political spectrum WAY off to the right.

Asbestos, I'm OK with Bush declassifying to support himself; that's what supposed to happen. I was reply to RT's statement of "GWB de-classified parts of it but not all of it, that is sensitive to our security." I probably misread his statement, as I read it like there was a period after "all of it." If so, my bad.

RT: "If the shoe fits." Terrible. "Cut and run" is not a shoe that fits. What do you think it means?

And I'm not offended. You can call me whatever your little brain wants to, as I and the other moderates are only entertained/saddened by the Lunatic Fringes!

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago

You conservative are a mixed-up bunch.

The NIE states very clearly that, due to the invasion/war in Iraq, we are much more vulnerable to terror attack, and we have pretty much inflamed the entire Muslim world against us . . . as if that wasn't more or less obvious to anyone who doesn't depend on the trog idiots at Fox for their news.

Your idiot president screwed up. He shouldn't have invaded Iraq; he should have kept Saddam as a foil against Iran - but that's a complicated piece of diplomatic strategy beyond the ken of your Texas idiot.

Some of you conservative wretches have opined that William the Great did not prosecute the war on terror properly; some have even contended that he gutted the military strength of the nation.

You are wrong, irrationalanimalcreature. Clinton was responsible, along with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for completely revamping our military from a force designed primarily to fight a European Cold War, to a force designed to meet the fluid challenges of international terrorism.

The force that invaded Iraq was conceived by military planners in the Clinton Pentagon.

No need to apologize; your opinions are worthless in any event.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"The NIE states very clearly that, due to the invasion/war in Iraq, we are much more vulnerable to terror attack, and we have pretty much inflamed the entire Muslim world against us..."

If we loose, and if we don't kill Zarkawi, (which we did). So we gotta stay, AND get more agressive. NOne of the Cut and run or "Phased redeployments". IT has to be fought there. Then the jihadists will loose interest if they are beaten back. It is all in the NIE. But you don't want to talk about winning right? That would make George look pretty wise, and you simply cannot accept that.

Xeno this report and your response prove ther very thing you libs and Bush haters have been saying over and over is NOT TRUE.

Iraq IS part of the War on Terror. Has been, will continue to be, and the Dems need to understand that we have to win now for sure.

So the NIE let's all the US know that the Dems have been lying when they say "Iraq is not part of the War on Terror".

That is what lack of intellect and being governed by an emotion of BUsh hatred gets you Xeno, bad judgements and poor analysis through circular logic.

God this is FUNNY!

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"You conservative are a mixed-up bunch."

You are the mentally challenged individual that can't read a whole report, and has the audacity to only report what he wants to say.

I KNOW what is in the report, I READ it before I posted it here at 6:18 PM, but will post it here for you. Xeno, you ned to get the document, and quit relying on warped "news" outlets like the AP. They too left out the "winning bit" and only reported the EXACT same thing you did, but no indepth analysis.

Here it is again READ it this time:

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

"Clinton was responsible, along with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for completely revamping our military from a force designed primarily to fight a European Cold War, to a force designed to meet the fluid challenges of international terrorism."

Clinton was responsible for "gutting" our military during his administration. THAT is WHY he could balance budgets, he spent NOTHING on the military. That is one thing I will criticize him on cause it is TRUE.

That is partially why Pres. Bush has such a deficit, he had to rebuild most of the military. Just talk to ANY Government contractor like a BOeing, or Lockheed. Pres. Clinton was anti military and did not fund it.

You are a biased air head.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Xeno talk to people who were in the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Talk to contractors at the Army bases world wide. Whilst YOU aere in the slammer, some of us wer out there working at these military installations....and the budget was so slim we darn near shut down major needed bases.

Maintenance was cancelled. That is also when lots of air craft were not airworthy.

You have NO CLUE about this and are reacting on blind loyality to your hero. That is fine. But you have no clue on the matter at hand, which was funding the military.

The GAO also did a report onthe rediness of forces after the Clinton disaster. Out of 15 divisions active, only 5 were fighting strength in the USA.

He did a terrible hatchet job on the military. It was not "pay as you go". It was "NO PAY FOR THE MILITATY".

"Clinton did exactly what the Defense Department and Pentagon requested him to do."

That is why they had to park all the F-4s and de-miled the 2 gen f-16s that wre in service too. I don;t need to "google" anything. I have first hand knowledge.

YOU sir are an idiot and you need to know that "google" doesn't give you all the relevant information.

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago


Key Judgments

United States-led counterterrorism efforts have seriously damaged the leadership of al-Qa'ida and disrupted its operations; however, we judge that al-Qa'ida will continue to pose the greatest threat to the Homeland and US interests abroad by a single terrorist organization. We also assess that the global jihadist movement-which includes al-Qa'ida, affiliated and independent terrorist groups, and emerging networks and cells-is spreading and adapting to counterterrorism efforts.

¢ Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists, although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and geographic dispersion.

¢ If this trend continues, threats to US interests at home and abroad will become more diverse, leading to increasing attacks worldwide.

¢ Greater pluralism and more responsive political systems in Muslim majority nations would alleviate some of the grievances jihadists exploit. Over time, such progress, together with sustained, multifaceted programs targeting the vulnerabilities of the jihadist movement and continued pressure on al-Qa'ida, could erode support for the jihadists. We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse. New jihadist networks and cells, with anti-American agendas, are increasingly likely to emerge. The confluence of shared purpose and dispersed actors will make it harder to find and undermine jihadist groups.

¢ We assess that the operational threat from self-radicalized cells will grow in importance to US counterterrorism efforts, particularly abroad but also in the Homeland.

¢ The jihadists regard Europe as an important venue for attacking Western interests. Extremist networks inside the extensive Muslim diasporas in Europe facilitate recruitment and staging for urban attacks, as illustrated by the 2004 Madrid and 2005 London bombings.

The question all you mixed-up conservatives should ask yourselves is: "Was this war necessary?"

Now that we're in it, we're stuck. Thanks a lot, Cheney & Co. How pleasant it is to read paens of reverence for the Chief Cowboy Idiot, merely because he is "our President" in a time of war. If he were any good, he would have stayed out of Iraq, focused all our attention on Afghanistan and Africa, and killed OBL.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

I know, I already read them at 6:12, and posted them here at 6:18. SO you cut and pasted them here, like you discovered it first and understand it. And like the intelectually dishonest poser that you are you did not post it all. You missed a few bullet points and it is 4 pages. Blantantly misleading. Here is the link for the FULL NIE AGAIN, this time READ IT:

Sorry dude, you are also about 5 hours late.


"The question all you mixed-up conservatives should ask yourselves is: "Was this war necessary?""

According to the NIE....YES emphatically. Iraq was a gathering place. COntinues today, but is a magnet for terrorists. WHAT PART OF THAT DID YOU NOT READ!!!!



What did you want us to do to people bent on killing Americans...BUY THEM ICE CREAM?


Do not sit here and play yourself off as a person with great reasoning whom has admitted to doing time for murder. ANd that you have significant insight on what is good for peace is laughable.

YOu have spit nail ovewr every terrorism fighting tool in the arsenal and pissed about how the President did it.

Well genius, what do you a self admitted murderer expect us to do with terrorists that want to kill Americans, with out tappijng international phone lines, without following their finance, without coereced interrogation, without forcing them to go to Iraq and fight there.

WHAT is your brilliant solution other than bitching about Bush????


VERY intellectually Dishonest, by not posting the whole NIE. There are 4 pages. You missed a few bullet points.

lunacydetector 11 years, 5 months ago

if the united states cuts and runs we will be seen by the arab world as a weak sister. just as we cut and ran from somalia, osama bin laden recognized us as wimps - so he got more aggressive. clinton is to blame for bin laden's more aggressive tactics, because he pulled us out of somalia and he didn't do anything when bin laden hit the USS Cole AND he didn't do anything when bin laden hit the US embassies.

if we cut and run we will be setting ourselves up for more terrorism stateside. the war in iraq is like a candle attracting moths. we are the candle, and the terrorists are the moths. the terrorists are taking on our military instead of us, and the terrorists don't have to travel too far. who would you rather have fighting bin laden's terrorists, the u.s. military in a foreign land or a collection of policemen and firefighters stateside?

xenophonschild 11 years, 5 months ago

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put if off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. - Isaiah 46:1-48:22

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Xeno that had better not be a threat. Else wise I will call the local constabulary. With your record that was not a very smart thing to post.

ASBESTOS 11 years, 5 months ago

Well what was the outcome of the City Commission meeting? Are they or aren't they?

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