Archive for Wednesday, September 20, 2006

City Commission asked to put Iraq question on ballot

September 20, 2006


City commissioners are being asked to allow for a citywide vote in November on whether American troops should be fighting in Iraq.

Members of the Lawrence Coalition for Peace and Justice told commissioners at their Tuesday evening meeting that they think a nonbinding vote would be an important way to send a message about the war to U.S. leaders.

"The war in Iraq is without doubt the most important issue facing Americans today," said Allan Hanson, a coalition member. "It is a very crucial issue. I think the voice of the people, in this case the voice of Lawrence residents, needs to be heard."

A majority of city commissioners said they are interested in formally discussing the idea for a November vote at next week's City Commission meeting.

"I see no harm in having a general discussion about it," said City Commissioner Mike Rundle, who was joined by Commissioners Boog Highberger and David Schauner in asking to put the issue on next week's agenda.

The remaining two commissioners, Mayor Mike Amyx and Commissioner Sue Hack, said they would withhold their comments about the validity of the proposal until next week.

Hanson said the coalition is not asking the City Commission itself to take a position on the war. He said the opinions of the five commissioners are no more relevant than any other five Lawrence residents. But getting commissioners to approve placing the measure on the ballot is the only feasible way that the question could be put before voters this November.

The resolution the coalition is seeking Lawrence voters to approve asks the U.S. government to begin the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq on Nov. 8 - one day after the election - and for the withdrawal to be completed no later than July 1, 2007. The proposed resolution cites that the "stated reasons for the American-led invasion of Iraq have proven to be false and groundless."

Hanson said his research indicated that about 30 communities in Wisconsin had similar ballot measures and several communities in Vermont had passed resolutions calling for a troop withdrawal at their town meetings. But he said he was not aware of any community that was planning a citywide vote on the issue for this November.

Douglas County District Clerk Jamie Shew said late Tuesday evening that adding a question to the Nov. 7 ballot still was possible, but that a decision would need to be made soon.

He said his staff members are reviewing a proof of the ballots that will be used in the November election and are set to take them to the printer.

Shew said he would need city commissioners to make a decision on whether to place the issue on the ballot no later than at next week's meeting. Time is of the essence because advance voting for the election will start in about four weeks, he said.

Members of the coalition - who have peace rallies each Saturday outside the Douglas County Courthouse - conceded that any vote by Lawrence residents likely would not have an effect on U.S. policy.

Eutin group welcomed

Families across the city currently are playing host to eight students from Lawrence's sister city of Eutin, Germany.

City commissioners at their Tuesday evening meeting recognized the students, who arrived Saturday and will be in the community through Oct. 22.

This is the 16th year the cities have had an exchange program.

Retirement community gains 4-1 approval

Commissioners on a 4-1 vote approved a development permit for a new retirement community on 24th Place Terrace between Crossgate Drive and Inverness Drive.

City Commissioner Mike Rundle cast the lone vote against the project. He said the property should be required to have sidewalks on both sides of the street to serve the elderly population that's expected to live there.

City code changes receive go-ahead

Commissioners gave the city's legal staff the authority to begin cleaning up the city's legal code.

One of the higher-profile changes involves the regulations regarding concealed carry of a firearm. Staff attorney Scott Miller told commissioners the city needed to make changes in its code to match new state legislation.


Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years ago

ok bad spelling and rambiling sorry more jave needed.

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

racist how?? people of any color can ride a camel... I have!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

Despite your claims to the contrary, perhaps you should change your name to ilovewar.

Tychoman 11 years ago

With every disgusting letter you type, conservativeman, I am ASTOUNDED that you're still on these boards, with your hate-filled, close-minded, inflammatory, offensive, personal attacks against the majority of the posters.

lunacydetector 11 years ago

is this why the Peaceniks call our soldiers "criminals?"

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"What is the point exactly?"

The point is crystal clear-- do you support withdrawal of US forces from Iraq, or not?

Danimal 11 years ago

As someone who served two tours in Iraq in the Marines this is a pretty good example of why I can't wait to leave Lawrence. What ticks me off about this is that it's impossible to get anything constructive on the ballot, but something completely pointless will get on easily. I hate this town.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

Funny how leaving the troops in Iraq to be killed and mutilated for no good reason is "supporting them." Up really is down around here.

ilovelucy 11 years ago

Even though I'm opposed to the war, I will not add my vote to the idiot's voice. This is about as ignorant as they come.

Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years ago

well bozo what does that say about you being on here? But hey this is a free country.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Saddam Hussein needed to be taken out. Had Bush told us the TRUTH, and been HONEST with his citizens, he might have more support. If he had planned this out more carefully, he might have more support.

He didn't. He lied to us numerous times, and bungled any possibility of good planning.

Stop calling liberals pro-terrorist, pro Iran, anti-American, and "libtards."

Will Skepnek 11 years ago

Really, does this "non-binding" vote frighten you war mongers?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"You'll get as much news coverage and the government body won't look so stupid."

Repetition of unsupported assertions only makes you look stupid.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago


I guess you don't understand. I consider this an idiot move. Kansans should not be looked at as stupid and for the city to even consider placing this on the ballot is stupid. Clear enough?

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

"They might, however, lose interest in us if we would stay the hell out of their business."

That strategy was tried already. It was the "pre 9/11/01 tactic". It lost us quite a lot. Evil and danger will grow if left to it's own devices.

Yours is one of the most obviously WRONG statments made. Remember "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

bozo on the bus

Your opinion means more than mine? Oh well, living with "your" assertions may make my day a little more difficult. Support placing this question on the ballot. The silent majority will speak with a check mark.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

what good does it do for the citizens of Lawrence? Give them a voice? Just set a date for a protest in the street and issue them a permit for a parade. You'll get as much news coverage and the government body won't look so stupid.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Posted by just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny how leaving the troops in Iraq to be killed and mutilated for no good reason is "supporting them." Up really is down around here.

Funny how times have not changed much and we have Bozos leading the charge

lunacydetector 11 years ago

if you skip a question on a ballot, doesn't it make your ballot null and void? hmmm

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

"Now Go Away or I Will Taunt You a Second Time. I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

Oh now look you made me pee my pants.

Sacerdotal 11 years ago

Pointless; fix the streets and tend to your own knitting!

Godot 11 years ago

Hansen, did your friends happen to conduct a poll asking the Iraqi people whether they wanted Al Qaeda in Iraq to pull out?

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

I'm sure the Iraqi people are glad to know they aren't worth supporting. We went in and dissmantled the hideous regime they were living under and they are really trying to get up on thier feet, but screw um. let's just pull up our pants and go home and leave them at the mercy of what ever crazy camel jockey can kill them off the fastest.

Godot 11 years ago

tychoman wrote: "Godot, what am I supposed to do, walk down Mass. Street with effigies of all those idiots you listed burning in flames and singing the National Anthem?"

No, burning in effigy is something only a third world mind would contemplate as an effective strategy.

I would suggest you go to Iraq and march in front of a mosque that is supportive of Al Qaeda, carrying a sign that says, "Stop the killing!" Or, better yet, enter the mosque and make that statement.

Godot 11 years ago

Tychoman, if you are against war, why don't you protest against Al Qaeda? Against Ahmendinijad? Against Hezbollah? Against Hamas?

cowboy 11 years ago

good lord , rename the kommission agenda and reporting to " News of the wierd "

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

It doesn't say anything, momma. I'm not the one complaining about the chance to vote on this question (and, yes, you can vote "no" if you don't agree.) Nor am I complaining about the lack of other referendum questions on the ballot.

middleoftheroader 11 years ago

unfortunately i doubt it would work Marion... as i said before it's useless and hopeless with some people

justsomewench 11 years ago

Perhaps if the ballot options are:

a) yes b) no c) this coalition must be a band'o'freakin' idiots

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

(d) we want to win the 2000 election (e) we want Gore (f) yesterday was much beter with Bill

middleoftheroader 11 years ago

how about a ballot initiative to eliminate "calming circles"?

Jean1183 11 years ago

You have got to be kidding!

This is the dumbest thing I've heard since Lawrence had a "Dada" or "Doodoo" day---can't remember what it was/is called.

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

Some one from the white house called me just this morninig wanting to know what Lawrence thought about what color toilet paper to buy for the west wing bathrooms. can you all get that on the ballot so I can let them know?

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

And just how should the question be written? Maybe something like this:

Do you support the war in Iraq?

Or this:

Do you support pulling the troops out of Iraq?

How would you word an "opinion" poll on an official ballot? When you vote for a specific issue, usually the governing body has the ability to do something about whatever the measure is. The city has no authority to do anything about Iraq. What is the point exactly?

prairiepollyana 11 years ago


Your suggest you have to be a resident of Lawrence to have an opinion on this question on the ballot. My guess is it would make the state news and probably national news, but then what would be different? The state school board made the news with Intelligent Design and the A.G. made the news with his ideas on youth and birth control. I guess we could all look at this as another progressive move in the name of the citizens.

Godot 11 years ago

September 18 was a dada day - that is probably when they (CPJ and PLC) cooked up this idea.

There are only four more dada days left: September 22, October 1, October 17, and October 26.

Maybe sanity will return after those days pass.

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

whistlestop, do you even live here? it's spelled Lawrence, not 'Lawerence'

Tony this is a blog, not a spelling puper it aslo donna beee a grammer test. tha issewes get us all riled up and people are typing fast, balancing their coffee on thier nee and eating powdar surger dounoutz. if you want to grade papers, go voluntear at a skrull some whear...

Kelly Powell 11 years ago

i do not consider myself a "warmonger"....but I will say I get a pain in my rectum everytime i see symbolic bs like this going on in our town.....I'm all for protest...It's the lame theatrics that set me on edge.

monkeyspunk 11 years ago

One giant waste of time. You think that Dubya and his gang don't know that the war in Iraq is unpopular? Is the LCPJ really that dense?

We don't need a ballot to know that most Americans would rather have our boys and girls home, or atleast fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, rather than in Iraq. Pffsst.

What a waste of time and funds.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

How stupid...and these people got elected? I guess they need a week to check with their friends as to how the voting population will look at them if they seriously consider this issue...if they have room put something on the ballot that would help them do their jobs...they have no jurisdiction over what the federal government political games...

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

If there is a referendum, the vote would almost certainly be in favor of withdrawal, as it would be in most places in the country right now, which is precisely why the warmongers on this board are protesting so loudly.

Linda Endicott 11 years ago

If it's non-binding, then what effect will it have, anyway? If it's non-binding, then why attach dates to it? If it's non-binding, then what does a vote on it mean?

Considering the cost of elections anyway, shouldn't ballots be left to those issues where your vote counts, and can actually change something?

Tychoman 11 years ago

Why shouldn't this be put to a vote? I haven't seen any good reason not to. Since the nation didn't get a chance to vote on this stupid war, we can do our part to let the federal government know how unhappy we are with it.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Conservativeman, you are one of the most disgusting people I have had the displeasure to debate with.

Thinker, I can handle myself and that belltower comment was FAR from funny.

If you 5 or so nitwits think I'm "against America, pro terrorist, pro Iran," etc., show a remark I've made that proves your idiotic points.

Godot, what am I supposed to do, walk down Mass. Street with effigies of all those idiots you listed burning in flames and singing the National Anthem?

Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years ago

so some people want to waste peoples time and money on a vote that will have no meaning and will not have any affect on the war is this about right? I am all for people protesting the war but not when these same people want to waste money of the hard working people of this city on a vote that will not have any valid meaning I am sure these people could find a better way to get in the news than this.

cowboy 11 years ago

yeah this makes sense , 50% of the country is republican , a republican business owner would really think this was a great place to put thier business. Just get a gun out and shoot yourself in the foot now !

lunacydetector 11 years ago

you didn't like my rolling the eyes bit? i thought it was funny.

but i do roll my eyes everytime i read something new about our commissioners. i bet most people do too!

middleoftheroader 11 years ago

omg where do i begin?................................................................................................ nevermind it's useless and hopeless. i'll just say that if it is on the ballot i'll skip the question because of it's non-binding powerlessness.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

The imperial misadventure in Iraq will already has already cost us at least $2 trillion, and further alienated nearly everyone else in the world. If Lawrence as a city can say that sanity should prevail sooner rather than later merely by voting in the next election, what harm is done?

And if any of you want something else on the ballot, do what the LCPJ did, and present it to the commission.

Or you could continue to just log in here and endlessly and repetitively whine.

Godot 11 years ago

If the Coaltion for Peace and Justice wants to make a real impact, they should plan a trip to Baghdad. There they should parade around with their peace signs right in front of the green zone. Or, better yet, they should go directly to Anbar and meet with AlQaeda in Iraq and convince them to lay down their bombs and IED's and divest themselves of their bomb vests.

Maybe Hansen could arrange that for his next sabbatical; better yet, do it for the holiday break. What better gift can Hansen give to the world?

whistlestop75 11 years ago

If you want Lawerence to be a laughing stock to the majority support it...but why waste the effort? Why not appeal to the city council to put on the ballot something that would actually help Lawerence...a question to the state of Kansas...Should the Legislature financially support the Unniversity of Kansas and supply the funds to repair the state owned buildings that was promised? No...I guess that would be going too might help the city of Lawerence...

whistlestop75 11 years ago

You might as well just ad a vote on the Budweiser horses to the makes as much sense....and it will send the same negative message...don't bring the horses here because you don't put the bit in their mouth gently enough and this vote will tell your friends and neighbors serving in the military that you don't support could even give them the message that the town doesn't want them back because they served in that "war" that nobody in Lawerence wanted...history repeats itself...

Kelly Powell 11 years ago

people have been screaming for the chance to vote on issues that have to do with living here, and THIS is what they give us? An opinion poll? Between this, our local signing of the kyoto agreement and the "symbolic " secession from the country a few years back i am truly baffled....Please make your political statements on your own time and at least try to do your damm job you were voted for....

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

THey are trying to get into the news. Additionally, if they go to DC they can show some libby COngressional person their "taking a stand" against the Bush admin.

SMelly politics. NO City has ANY business passing meaningless resolutions, about business that simpley is not in their list of things to pay attention to.

THis is radical politics, and someone wants in the newspaper more than they actuallywant to do their job.

FInd out whom it is and recall them.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Stay out of this, sybil. I can handle only one troll at a time. I'm not God, Jim!

prairiepollyana 10 years, 12 months ago

I agree right-thinker. She does add to the forum but her "bully" tactics are way overboard.

ilovelucy 11 years ago

BoZo: I won't be changing my name to Ilovewar. I abhor what is happening over there. But we're in in and I will support the troops while they are there. I have friends that are there. Even they don't agree with Iraq but they will honor the commitment they made. By my statement regarding my vote, it's simply this.....the three idiots waste time and taxpayer monies by coming up with these asinine ideas and agendas. As long as they persist in that, I will persist in annoying them whenever I can. Simple. They...are...idiots! They need to go-Thank you.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"For all of you that are so harsh on Bush and hate him so much. Here is a test. List some of the things you admire about him and policies of his that work with Iraq and the WoT."

I don't "hate" him any more than I hate other mass murderers I've never met, and I can see no point in fabricating such a fictitious list of accomplishments.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

Well Swbsow, what is the abuse?

Godot 11 years ago

swbsow, we are actually having an election in November that will determine whether congressmen and senators keep their jobs. Votes cast in those ballots will have real impact. Hijacking the ballot box for a partisan publicity stunt, as LCPJ proposes, is arrogant and disrespectful of the electorate, and the goal is to undermine our system of representative democracy.

Godot 11 years ago

Oh, geez, I am so sorry. Osama is dead. Has been since late 2001. Someone on Larryville said so, so it must be true!!!

My bad.

Godot 11 years ago

Well put. Now, go further. Put into words your declaration of war against a particular regligion.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

"My colleague holygrailale is absolutely correct: contradiction without content is not dialogue."

Well Xeno you certianly do a lot of that.

not_dolph 11 years ago

You've got to be freakin' kidding me. Vote on "this" you morons!

monkeyhawk 11 years ago

I seriously and stongly encourage the commission to put this "proposal" on the ballot. I think it will achieve a number of unintended consequences.

Since there are so few items that the funders of the city are "allowed" to vote on, this would definitely set a new precedent. The city and county have been reluctant to give the citizens a say on such matters, especially when there are alternate methods to accomplish their goals.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

I M done with you swbsow, post on, but you will not accept that someone else understands issues better than you do.

I handed you your arse in a handbag here.

EVERYONE can see it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"After all, it was the colleges that started the anti-war movement during Vietnam. "

Which is precisely why it should stay on the ballot. This war was boneheaded from the start, designed primarily to promote through fearmongering "the war president's" reelection chances in 2004, and to get massive no-bid contracts for his buddies.

Stop the war now.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

BOZO you forget the War Powers Reslolution, CONGRESS voted to allow it.

The President Can only do it unilaterally in times of National Energency, or full decleration of war. It was done by stature....

SO, congress is the warmongers, not the President.

It would then be the Congressmen that are getting contracts for their buddies,

the predsident cannot do this all by himself.

lovineveryminuteofit 11 years ago

Trolls! This is why I do not often post.

Godot 11 years ago

hmmmm. "regligion." sorry, can't even come up with a pun to cover up that typo.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Godot, if you call the situation that we're in Iraq "winning," you need help.

Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years ago

ok the vote would be a waste of paper because we have no say per say on this issue that would be the commander and chief, congress and the rest of d.c. and I hate to tell alll the bickering people but all presidents have lied to us all poloticians have lied it seems to come with the job. This is a issue that should not be on our ballots and takes away, in my opinion, from real issues, city and state, that we need to look at and the commision is just giving in to pressure on an issue they know they have no control over so they can duck other issues in this city.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

How did these guys get a NIE that is not "De-classified"

I searched for the NEI here: and here:

ALL I can find Xeno is a bunch of leftr wing sites saying the same thing you just posted.

SO I will wait for the actual document, and read it for myself.

You and your ilk have already blown your objectivitity.

Godot 11 years ago

"Anyone of them could be a threat to anyone who is not a part of their worldview."

Spoken like a true Islamic fanatic.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"BOZO you forget the War Powers Reslolution, CONGRESS voted to allow it."

I'm not forgetting anything. BushCo had their enablers in Congress, both republican and democrat, and they ought to be tried for the war crimes they allowed BushCo to commit.

But instead, they're passing CYA legislation that will allow BushCo to imprison people without charge or any right to due process forever. Fascists.

xenophonschild 10 years, 12 months ago

Once again, the wisdom of my colleague holygrailale is proving out to be true.

She advised that we essentially ignore the conservative troglodytes who infest this site, for they are ignorant, abusive, insulting, and do not add anything positive to any discussion.

I am going to follow her advice.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Yet another "If you criticize iut, how would YOU fix it?" Useless.

davisnin 11 years ago

The world renowned KU Student Senate does crap like this all the time. I'm glad the city council can rise to the intellectual heights of hungover kids.

So there were no WMDs (that were found, they are in Syria)... sure I'll give you that

So nearly everyone regrets going into the war.... seems so now.

So we should pull out now and just abandon the democratically elected government and every person that enjoys the freedom from a murderous dictator and let the country collapse into a full on genocidal civil war where the only winners will be Iran and the terrorist puppet government they install... great idea.

dviper 11 years ago

Headline: City Commission asked to put Iraq question on ballot

My first reaction to this was:WTF?

Second reaction was: Welcome to Lawrence Kansas: sigh

I kept waiting for Mayor Amyx to cut this guy off. He let this guy (probably a radical PLC supporter) continue to ramble on and on, repeating the same ole Liberal lies about the war and President Bush. I hope the mayor remembers the precendent that he set, when someone speaks up in a future commission meeting and makes the same type of statements about Hillary Clinton or any other Liberal political candidate, that he allows them to speak fully without hinderance.

I'm probably giving this guy Hanson too much credit for intelligence, however I think this is could be about a strategy to get more Liberals to vote, especially college aged kids. The Liberals are desperately trying to make the up-coming elections a 'one issue election'. Without the war as a unifying issue among Liberals, the DNC (Democratic National Committee) has got nothing. They (the Liberals) can't agree on much of anything besides the war.

The city commission will probably pass this bad idea, with a 3-2 vote at a minimum. After all this is the same commission that sent a 'disapproval letter' whining and complaining about the Patriot Act to the Feds.

Godot 11 years ago

Drewdun, this began as a discussion about a group of people who are , as they present themselves, and their resolution, anti-war, not anti-Bush. But, thanks for clearing up their true agenda.

If they were truly anti-war, the LCPJ would follow my suggestions of going to the source to try to stop the violence. They have the wherewithall; many are well-healed professors with plenty of vacation time and lots of money to spend on travel.

You have highlighted that the effort by the LCPJ to put the Iraq issue on the ballot is not about peace, it is simply anti-Bush. It is partisan.

Partisan favoritism should not be the subject of a municipal voter referendum.

We are having a mid-term election. That is all that is needed.

Porter 11 years ago

Radical "Islamofascists" are not going to stop killing, rioting, and terrorizing no matter what we do.

They might, however, lose interest in us if we would stay the hell out of their business.

The only way the "War on Terror" will reduce terrorism is if we wipe out an entire religion. I hope that's not part of the strategery.

drewdun 11 years ago

The cons are really on today. Pathetic little weasels.

"is this why the Peaceniks call our soldiers "criminals?" - lunacydetector

You should turn your lunacy detection-device on yourself - you might be surprised by the results.

"He is pro terrorist and pro Iran." - conman

When will you learn that opposing Bush and the war in Iraq does NOT make a person 'pro-terrorist and pro-Iran?' I know spouting far-right talking points is easier than thinking for the knuckle-draggers among us, but please, try harder - this rubbish is oh-so-tired and untrue.

I am a liberal - I hate terrorists and the president of Iran is clearly an Islamic extremist. However, recognizing the evil over there does not preclude one from recognizing, and fighting against, evil in our own nation. Please get this through your thick skulls: Opposing Bush and the GOP does not make one un-American; if anything, it makes us the quintessential Americans - we are exercising the rights that make America a great nation. In another nation, a would-be dictator like Bush would have silenced his critics long ago (not that Bush and the pukes haven't already tried), however the democratic institutions of this nation are much stronger than the latest band of extremists to come down the pipe. THANK GOD.

As for 'hating America:' let me say this very slowly - speaking for myself, I don't hate America,


lunacydetector 11 years ago

this iraq vote is freaking ridiculous. knowing this bunch we have in power - it will no doubt be put on the ballot.

i propose we hold the city commission elections earlier than usual. i can't stop from rolling my eyes everytime i read an article about our commissioners. it's become involuntary. i think they've given me a medical condition. something for the new england journal of medicine.

if you see me in public, i'm the good looking older black guy who keeps rolling his eyes all the time. maybe i should start hanging around on mass street. i'd fit right in. now i get it!

Tychoman 11 years ago

middleoftheroader, I'm not letting my emotion cloud my judgment. I'm using practicality and rationality to influence my judgments, unlike the White House. You say this will hurt the morale of the troops? Their morale is ALREADY low. If you think a ballot initiative of a town of 85,000 people will lower the morale of 200,000 troops 8,000 miles away, you're crazy.

This is in regards to the war, not the troops. I'm sick and tired of people saying that if I don't support this illegal war, then I don't support our troops. That's such a hypocritical load. Saying we don't want the war is also saying we want them HOME, where they belong.

Godot 11 years ago

swbsow, the US did go to war with Iraq, and we won.

You did not answer my question.

Godot 11 years ago

I'd rather vote on the route for the SLT. Why wont the PLC put that on the ballot?

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

The Imminent threat in the WPA is to the forces being engaged.

The Imminent threat in the WPA is to the forces being engaged.

The Imminent threat in the WPA is to the forces being engaged.

The Imminent threat in the WPA is to the forces being engaged.

Did you get that????

Godot 11 years ago

I watched the Clinton interview again. I revise my earlier prediction about the Clinton Global Aid, I misremembered or misheard. It actually will be called the "Clinton Global Initiative."

CGI. Remember that acronym, folks, you will grow to hate it.

middleoftheroader 11 years ago

tychoman, 1. why shouldnt this be put to a vote? because ballot initiatives are supposed to be for that which will be declared legal or illegal. liberals have already done a fine job of showing how this war was started illegally. and this initiative would not. 2. you say you havent seen any good reason not to. that's because you have let your emotions on this issue cloud your judgement. marion has made a fine point about how this will hurt the morale of the troops. this may very well be an illegal war. and it may be better for us not to fight in it. but if we are going to. we need to make damn sure we win it or the consequences will be far greater than if we lose. 3. you say the nation didnt get a chance to vote on this stupid war. thats because a nations citizens dont vote on whether to go to war or not. 4. you say we can do our part to let the federal government know how unhappy we are with it. the federal government doesnt give a rats @&& if the citizens are happy with war or not. besides even in justifiable wars why should a nation be anything but unhappy with having to fight in it. wars should not be decided based on its citizens happiness anyway.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

tony88 It's America. Love it or Leave it. Campain for office. Do something, anything, but quit your whining. We are at war, in Afganistan AND Iraq. Have you ever thought how dangerous it would be if we ditched Iraq while it is young and unstable to just let Syria or Iran in the door? We are there and anyone with common sense knows we can't just pull up and leave. Get a grip.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"Do something, anything,"

It would seem that LCPJ did exactly that. They went to their local, elected officials, and asked for a referendum to tell the folks in Washington exactly how we Lawrencians feel about a very important issue.

And despite all the piing and moaning here about what a waste of effort this will be, you've all wasted more effort on this forum piing and moaning about the possible inclusion of this question on the ballot than will be spent by commissioners, county election officials and voters combined.

Iraq is a disaster (now mostly of our making) and we can't make it any better. Time to get out, now, and this referendum will show that most people in Lawrence believe that.

Kelly Powell 11 years ago are pissing and moaning just as loud as your opponents.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

Then WHY is Congress and democrats in congress agreeing to fund one?

You gotta answer that question before you go on ranting, otherwise, your response cannot be taken seriously as it tries to place the balme with a circular logic.

IE Only Congress can declare war.

OK fine.

Why are they passing appropriations to fund one????

That is not the President there... and you know

But you keep leaving that part out.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

"Can't respect our own Government? That is how democracy works."

You are obviously deluded if you think this Congress or this president or this war has anything to do with "democracy."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

Pissing and moaning are in the eye of the beholder. But I'm not the one who can't stand the idea of a little checkmark on a ballot.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

Contrary to what you left wing nutcases say.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

I guess you did not learn anything from Clinton with his bit with Chris.

At least he keeps swinging, and I will he said... trys.

Kelly Powell 11 years ago

I can think of better things to have a check mark next to...That is the whole point of people ragging about this....There are issues that could be settled with a vote....This is just more theatrics that amount to zilch....Is it hurting anyone? it really doing anything?no....that is what makes it frustrating, it's so dammed innocuous and saccharine that it pisses people off more than an unpopular vote that would actually do something would.

Tychoman 11 years ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years ago

No, all the fuss is precisely because it might actually do something-- begin to drive home the message that the war must stop, and it must stop sooner rather than later.

Kelly Powell 11 years ago

Really? well i guess this is an opinion we differ in...I personally do not see how this will do anything other than make some people in this town feel all warm and gooey inside.....which in my opinion is as bad as doing nothing.....token spectacles such as this does not raise consciousness, it just makes those that allready believe have a false sense of accomplishment.....But hey, if you want useless fluff on the ballot, go for it.....This is a personal opinion towards you....I truly believe you do a disservice to the progressive party if you agree with everything they say or do......Yes men never help in the end.....if you truly cannot see where this debacle has upset people then we really will never meet on common ground.

Kelly Powell 11 years ago

exscuse me...WHY this debacle.....

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 22, 2006 at 9:45 a.m.

Quit whining? "which is the primary problem. whatever happened to government 'by the people and for the people'? this state of affairs is what the founding fathers would call grounds for a revolution." that sounds like a sober statement to me. You call it whining? Hmmm.....

The last time I looked the American people cast votes for the President and they elect all who make up congress...Congress votes on the Presidents declaration of war and this IS "by the people...for the people"...your argument on revolution does not hold are whining...

jayhawks71 11 years ago

Wow, all these people against the people voting... What, you don't want to vote on every possible issue that comes up? You only want to put things to a vote when YOU it bothers you? Well, then you afford everyone that same opportunity. I think the citizens should vote.

I wish Marion's "dingy" would sink once and for all.

Tychoman 11 years ago

Okay, we got rid of Saddam Hussein. And we're doing SO MUCH BETTER!

gphawk89 11 years ago

While we're at it, let's also have a citywide vote whether or not we should have to pay federal income taxes. This would be an important way to send a message about income tax to U.S. leaders.

What a stupid waste of time and money...

Tychoman 11 years ago

Marion, who doesn't live in Lawrence, threatening a postcard campaign? How laughable.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

SBWSOW can't you post anything else?

"The last time I looked the American people cast votes for the President and they elect all who make up congress...Congress votes on the Presidents declaration of war and this IS "by the people...for the people"...your argument on revolution does not hold are whining..."

Are you aware that there has been no declaration of war for Iraq?"

Good lord you are a broken record....and totally wrong.

Are you aware that congress has passed funding on this war 3 times, so if it is illegal then congress (with democrats who are yelling that the war is illegal) keep voting to pay for it and by doing so tacetly supporting it.

So just stop the "illegal war" crapola on every darn thread. Yes we know you hate Bush, Get over it, but the terrorists are worse, and it is NOT our actions that cause harm....appeasement does.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago


"Again, you do not understand the War Powers Resolution."

Your site ModernTribune is a left wing radical site that hates george. What were you expecting from them objectivity? NOT!!

It does NOT matter what your take is on the war powers act, the fact is we ARE at war, and have soldiers and everything. You are picking anc choosing what you want out of the war powers resolution, and your discusion is out of context and mis representing the process and giving congress a pass on their responsibilities.

WHY? Because you hate Pres. Bush. The man can do NO RIGHT by you at all. So you go looking for any snippet that yopu can find, and if it does not make the arguemtn for you, you cut and past OUT OF CONTEXT.


"And again, you claim I make this argument all the time when I have posted this 2x. Both today. And again, you claim I hate Bush. You seem to do that a lot when people disagree with Bush's policies. Generalize much?"

That is right, you past the same fecal material and biosolids over and overs AS IF that makes it true. It is no more true than your wacky "imminent" threat.

Who cares about Resolution 1441, what about the 154 others that you do not talk about at all.

Again it is the only one that you can use for you flimsy weak a$$ arguments.

You are a mental midget that knows how to cut and paste. That is the extent of your debate skills. SO DO you generalize much?


But since you do not READ the actual Resolution, but you do take it from a Left wing editor what it is , here is the actual Resolution 1441.'UN%20Security%20Council%20Resolution%201441'

Look at the first 2 pages: it satates that members can "USE ALL NECESSARY FORCE to enforce compliance with 660. Read the damn document, quit taking political wonkery as fact!

The last page is good too. But the Document is Nov. 8 2002.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

This is my last post on the topic because YOU SWBSOW do not read what you post here from YOUR link:

It is quite clear that CONGRESS DID give the President the authority, and HE did not lie or mislead. IF there was, andy lying or misleading the congress helped.

here are the relevant parts from the Joint Resolution Authorizing the use of force in Iraq:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ YOU have blathered on about and only about the "immenent threat" as the sole part of your argument however look at this part of the resloution, states the second part you left out (as usualt) to enforce the UN Resolutions. It was also a the "continuing threat" of Iraq. That was already determined independent of the WMD.


(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."

In short Congress authorized the US to enforce the Un regulations.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Under the "Presidendtial Determenation:

"(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and ..."

SO your definition of determination left out the fact of the UN Resolutions AGAIN! "Peqaceful means" will not bring them in compliance with UN Security Council Resolutions. Thay had 17 they were in material breech of.


NOw for your take on the "War Powers Act".


(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. -- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. (2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. -- Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution."

There it is for all to see. ALL OF THE CONGRESS, stated while voting for this that it WAS consistent with the War Powers Act.

SO it is NOT an ILLEGAL WAR. IN fact is is quite well documented that it is NOT

That is why Democrats should just shut up on the "Illegal war" thing and the City Council should just drop this issues totally.

It is nice to hand someone their hat in an argument. IT is even better when you use their own material.

That is it for this discussion and for me on it.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

OK this is the last one:

The War Powers Resolution:

Section 2 is the revelant one here.

"SEC. 2. (a) It is the purpose of this joint resolution to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgement of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.

(b) Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

(c) The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

SWBSOW you and other have kept on yelling that "there is no declaration of war" so it is illegal. HOWEVER it just shows you did not read Section 2 (c) of the War Powers resloution. It can be implemented by Decleration of war or national emergency (9/11) or by STATUTE!!

That (By statute) is EXACTLY what the Authorization to use force in Iraq is "(2) specific statutory authorization"

So now I have FULLY discredited your line of thinking that you cut and pasted and taken out of context from wibsites and people telling yu what you wnat to hear.

Why would you do this, what is the underlying motivation? It certianly is NOT a search for truth.

It is motivated by either blind party affiliation or blind hatred of Bush.

ALl the ANit Bush vitriol follows the same level of lying on the left. True, he is not the sharpest tool in the shed and there are others I would wish for as President, however they are not there and Bush is.

Support his and llok for the truth. There has been more lies dumped on Pres. Bush than anyone ever thought to put on Pres. Clinton. In politics payback is played this way and is expected. Hopefully, we will move on from here and get to the heart of the issues and the heart of the matter.

Terrorists are bad. Iran with nukes is bad. Chavez is bad. Annan is bad (but is soon to go). Illegal immigration is bad.

All the rest of ths issues are minutia to the US of A at this time.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Thank You Asbestos, you have won the argument hands down! With Free Speech there comes the responsibility of the reactions of people. There are those who in turn use the words to convince the majority they are right, it snowballs across the internet and encourages the terroist leaders to continue their religious war, because our nation is divided and easily conquered. Swbsow is repeating her convictions of why Bush is wrong, but the message she is sending is one of division in America, not unity. If you think that terroist would not look at message boards posted in the heart of America in a major college town, you have your head in the sand. After all, it was the colleges that started the anti-war movement during Vietnam. Lawrence leaders should say no to this question on the ballot and move on with the business of the city.

xenophonschild 11 years ago

An hour ago, a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) compiled by the sixteen disparate agencies responsible for intelligence gathering reported that the war in Iraq has made the U.S. more vulnerable to terrorism and terrorist attacks.

If anyone can still find rationale for waging an unnecessary war in the wrong country, you will soon be alone.

Anyone looking for a reason to despise George Bush need look no further. Stupid. Brash. Ignorant. And dangerous . . . to his own people.

Elect Democrats in November who can kill the right Muslims in the right places.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Posted by xenophonschild (anonymous) on September 24, 2006 at 11:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

An hour ago, a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) compiled by the sixteen disparate agencies responsible for intelligence gathering reported that the war in Iraq has made the U.S. more vulnerable to terrorism and terrorist attacks.

If anyone can still find rationale for waging an unnecessary war in the wrong country, you will soon be alone.

And these were the same agencies responsible for the intelligence report that congress and the president relied on to start the bombing of Iraq. You can't have it both ways. Either their report that Sadam had WMD was real and this one is as well, or this one is false like the one in 2001.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

From a confused BOZO:

"I'm not forgetting anything. BushCo had their enablers in Congress, both republican and democrat,..."

Then that would mean a MAJORITY, which would mean a MANDATE. That would mean your position is a MINORITY POSITION.

That is what happens in Democracy. Just becaue it doesn't go your way, does not mean it is illegal, or immoral. You lash out at all the things that are done, but refuse to accept that YOU are in the minority opioion, ie with democratically elected leaders with representative government.

Can't respect our own Government? That is how democracy works.

Throwing a fit and saying everyone lies is absolutely thick headed.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

No swbsow you got your hat handed to you.

"You are reading way too much into a statement of fact in that there has been no declaration of war by Congress."

They did it by statute, and congress gave him the power. Pres. Bush cannot be abusing the war powers axt because the congress gave him that authority to go into Iraq, and he must report every 60 days. How is that abusing the act. It is perfectly within the constraints of the limitation of executive power by the legislative branch throught the War Powers Act of 1973, and applied via the Joint Resolution to authorize the actions in Iraq.

How has he abused it?

It includes enforcing all the resloutions from the UN Security Council. IN FACT, it REQUIRES him to enforce them.

How is that abusing the act?

YOu cannot explain it because you don't know and you can't explain it, so you just keep repeating it.

SO, EXACTLY what has been done that is an Abuse?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "And I'm not saying it is an illegal war because there has been no declaration of war."

Doesn't have to be a "Declaration of War". The Congress gave him authority, you can call it a war, peacekeeping, whatever you want, because congress gave him the authority, and he can do what he has to do to comply with the congressional mandate in the Joint Resloution for Iraq.

You are slowing down.

"It is hard to do a victory dance if the person already said the exact same thing that you did."

Then just accept that you are wrong then and cannot analyze things properly or read properly.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

Three issues here, War Powers act The Joint Resolution for Force in Iraq And UN resolutions.

I have already explained how YOU have picked and choosed what you wanted to incorrectly. NOW you are on "ABUSE" of the WPA, because everything else you have said has been wrong.


All statements made by YOU SWBSOW:

"I'm fairly confident that Congress was not anticipating the use of military force to last this long."

Where is this from? Your opinion. The WPA and the Joint Resolutionon Iraq, both allow the for "Extended deployments". I doubt YOU were in that particular briefing nor were the left wing bloggers.


"However, the ostensible "statutory authority" granted to the President to was conditional."

Based on just what part of the WPA or the Joint Resolution? That is an OPINION you have. There is NOTHING stated officially AT ALL that the authority was "conditional". That is an unsubstanciated statement, well really a lie.


"The Iraq Resolution only granted the President the right to determine whether the standards required by War Powers Act Congress were met."

Negative! That is also not true. When you are depolying forces and committing forces in the field the requirements of CONGRESS is that all information be given BEFORE they VOTE to give that authority.


"The WPA required "clear" evidence of an "imminent" threat by Iraq to the U.S. to justify war. "

Nowhere in the WPA does it state this.


"In any event, the President could not enforce U.N. Resolutions or otherwise deal with the so called Iraq threat, absent "clear" evidence of an "imminent" threat by Iraq to the U.S. An Act of Congress, the War Powers Act, the law of the land prevents war on abstract concepts of emerging or gathering threats that may occur sometime in the future. The law is specific that threat must be clear and imminent. Threat alone is just simply not enough to go to war. "

That is covered int the Joint Resolution for forces in Iraq, and YES it was to make IRAQ comply with UN Security Council Resolutions.


"But we found out later on that all of that justification was false. And now we are stuck in a civil war in Iraq with no seeming end."

Opinion and conjecture. Irrelevant to the WPS, the Joint Resloution, and numerous UN resolution.

No offense but you stink at this.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

"I don't even know where to begin. You obviously have not read the Constitution and obviously skimmed the War Powers Resolution."

You don't know what you are talking about.

OK ONE more time for YOU because YOU are Slow;

The WPA, in 1973 states how the Congress will enforce and oversee the Handling of war with the Executive authority. Came because of a DEMOCRATS WAR in Viet Nam.

The Joint Resloution for Use of Force in Iraq explains HOW the current Executive and COngress agree on HOW to appley the WPA and on what concerning IRAQ. IN THAT Resolution 2 issues 1) WMD, and 2) Compliance with US Security Council Resolutions.

You stated:

"Again, UN resolutions cannot be used for the War Powers Resolution."

Not in there, it is in the Joint Resolutions for Iraq, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT??????

You got it now or you still mixing thes things up? BTW bothe the WPA and the Joint Resolution for Iraq are BOTH RESOLUTIONS, so I guess neither one makes any difference. According to you:

"Asbestos, a resolution is not the same thing as a statute."

From :


"The President has to request authorization from Congress. Congress does not intiate this authorization."

WRONG.! The Congress CAN initiate the action IF there is 30% of the member ship. YOu tell me I have skmmed it, you are full of it.


As for this : it is a congressman's newsrelease, and NOT statute of resloution. Talk about clueless!!!


"It clearly defines it is to be used when there is imminent threat to the United States. "

The only use of "imminent" is in the "imminent threat to US Forces", not Imminent threat to the United States> Have you even read this document????

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The War Powers Resolution very clearly states there must be imminent threat for the President to have authorization to utilize military force. "

NOWHERE does it state this, you made that up or one of the left wing blogs stated this. I CAN FIND THAT NOWHERE IN THE WPA!!! YOU ARE LYING!!!

ASBESTOS 11 years ago


"You do understand that Republicans hold the majority and that it is very unlikely that they would vote to do so?"

NO really, they are in the majority?? SOunds like that is the "will of the people then under democracies. DOesn't it?

" Even though the imminent threat has proven to be false?"

Irrelevant because FOR THE THIRD TIME, CONGRESS approved application of the WPA for WMD and For Compliance with the UN SEVCURITY RESOLUTIONS.


From your link


(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.


"The abuse the President has committed is to continue to rely on the imminent threat requirement in regards to Iraq."

That is called lying or obfuscating. That language is not in the WPA or the Joint Resolution and is a red herrring. If that is all you can produce, please just stop, you have made yourself look like an arse.

And from your own like

"Provisions of the War Powers Resolution (P.L. 93-148) "

So is it statute or not?

As for Paul Calls I agree, we should have declared war on Afganistan and Iraq both. The reason we could not was because LOUD MOUTH DEMOCRATS DID NOT WANT US TO BE UNILATERAL!!!

Good lord, Pres. Bush went this way BECAUSE that is what the Dems wanted, a multilateral position. That was to give the Dems their political cover. Look how these ugly people treat the man that gave them political cover. HELL he should have just cone unilateral and vbeen done with it.

There is no pleasing You people at all.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

8(c) For purposes of this joint resolution, the term "introduction of United States Armed Forces" includes the assignment of members of such armed forces to command, coordinate, participate in the movement of, or accompany the regular or irregular military forces of any foreign country or government when such military forces are engaged, or there exists an imminent threat that such forces will become engaged, in hostilities.

Where the astriks are is the only place other that a Pres. Carter case on the same issue.


HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY THAT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

And he (Swbsow) obliviously saunters on.

I need a scoop Ice cream cone for my forehead.

"And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies."


How come everyone flipped??

Out of the mouth of a Liberal Senator. Arguing against EVERYTHING YOU JUST Said.

Godot 11 years ago

I cannot believe it. I am watching the Clinton interview on Fox. He just said, and I quote, "I have never criticized George Bush." Then he waggled that smelly finger of his right in Chris Wallace's face.

Lying liars and the lying lies they tell. What is really sad, is Clinton believes himself.

Did you realize that, even though he was Commander in Chief, Bill Clinton was powerless? That he could not control the Pentagon? That he could not control the CIA? That he could not control the FBI? That he did not have the power to fire George Tenet? That he could not take the iniative, via executive order, to force the CIA to kill bin Laden? That the vast right wing conspiracy prevented him from taking control of his administration?

Who woulda known that the greatest president ever was really just a victim, that he was not responsbile for anything he did?

This man has gone off the deep end. In this interview, Clinton finally reveals himself to be the megalomaniac he has been hiding behind his fake joviality.

Reminds me of Richard Nixon.

Godot 11 years ago

Another revealing insight gleaned from Bill Clinton's verbal (and nearly physical) attack on Chris Wallace on FOX:

Now that Clinton is free of the constraints of the constitution, and is luciously wealth, he has visions of doing everything that he could not do as President of the US. He, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and other people with "real money," (Clinton's phrase) will unite to re-make the world the way it should be, in accordance with the vision of the ultra-rich, ultra-liberals. After all, they are rich. They must know what is best for all of us, right?

So, folks, our future will be one where Clinton's Global Aid holds all the wealth and power. Global Aid will be funded by tax free transfers from the estates of the uber-rich, who will, in return for their gifts, earn seats on The Board of Glogal Aid. And Global Aid, being a charitable, 501(c)(3) organization, will not be subject to taxation.

The Board of Global Aid, unhindered by the burdens of the Constitution, taxes and the UN, even the Geneva Convention, will take care of us. They will give us everything we need - a living wage, affordable housing, free health care, indoctrination via education (or re-education, as deemed appropriate) and sidewalks or a bus to anywhere we want to go, as long as we live really close together, so we are easier to control, and as long as we do not question their power to rule us all, and as long as we join them in their battle against the ultimate Evildoer, WalMart.

No problemo. Eh, Chavez?

Godot 11 years ago

SWBSOW, we are not at war with a country now. We won the war with the government of Iraq in the spring of 2003. We are now in a police action with Al Qaeda and various Islamic religious factions who are fighting us, and each other, for control of Iraq and its wealth.

At the same time, the US is engaged in a struggle with a world-wide network of Islamic extremists who have called for the conversion, or death, of anyone who is not a fundamentalist Muslim.

If you were to author a declaration of war to encompass this struggle, how would you word it?

Godot 11 years ago

"If you want to combat terrorism, why not start with finding & capturing OBL? "

He is dead, haven't you heard? In fact, he died of natural causes in 2001. GWB directed the CIA to cover up his demise, and to create all these video and audio tapes of OBL in order to make US citizens afraid, and therefore dependent upon the GOP. And GWB ordered the CIA and special forces to bomb the trains in London and England, and they even killed all those children in Chechnya to help bolster the ratings of Puti-put Putin, who GWB thinks is a great guy.

In fact, OBL was portrayed in the films by a former KU basketball player who has since gone under cover, having had major plastic surgery and who now appears as a very small person on Geico commercials.

Didn't you know? I read it on, so it must be true.

Godot 11 years ago

swbsow wrote: "There are extremists in every religion (with maybe the exception of Buddhims, AILAB and I were joking about that part one time). You'd have to do that with all religions."

Excuse me, but I have not heard that the Buddhims or AILAB (whoever they are) have declared Jihad on Israel and the US, and all non-Muslims. This has been done, specifically, by OBL, and, most recently, by the Jihader in Residence of Iran, in the name of Allah.

Godot 11 years ago

Tychoman, the US did win the war over Saddam. The government of Saddam collapsed in 2003. Laying down arms running and hiding the way Saddam's army did pretty much means the army has lost. There is no semblance of the former Baathist regime; it is no more.

The disgraced and beaten Baathists, in concert with their ally, Al Qaeda, are now fighting to regain power under a new name, Al Qaeda In Iraq, murdering their countrymen-women-and children without regret in an effort to create strife and unrest. As a result, the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds are all fighting. Just as Al Qaeda wanted.

The challenge for the US is to see that Iraq does not become a base, and a bankroll, for Al Qaeda.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago


How can anyone be so thickheaded? Congress votes for funding of your non-war. If Congress really wanted to pull out of Iraq OR Afgahnistan they would push the issue and NOT fund it. Why do they? Because the majority of the American people think they are on the right track in keeping the troops in place, and they know it.

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

SWBSOW you are the most ignorant thick headed individual on this site. How can you be so absolutely dense?

Give it a rest, you were blown out of the water. NO matter how you pose, you have no concept of what your are trying to talk about. It is over your head. A level of complexity you have proven over and over you do not even understand the simplist of parts of it.

Let it go.

Your last posts show you lied, by saying you are not a democrat. Only a democrat with the democrat talking points would say that.


xenophonschild 11 years ago

You conservatives are a mixed-up bunch.

The NIE dryly notes that we are not safer as a result of the Iraqi invasion; on the contrary, we are at a much greater risk of attack.

Some of you choose to attack the intelligence agencies as being responsible for providing bogus information to your precious Present Occupant, but none of the agencies suborned George Tenet to feed Colin Powell false information so he could sway a skeptical United Nations to accept at least a credible argument for invasion.

Now, if it wasn't any of the agencies, then who could it be? Hmm. Why, could it be Dick Cheney? Yes! Of course!

Cheney and his clique of coporate jingoists wanted the U.S. to use our military might to "shock and awe" those pathetic twits who couldn't wait to surrender to our unmanned drones during the First Gulf War. They misread Iraqi psychology in particular, and Arab psychology in general. And 2800 Americans have died for their mistakes.

So much for your "objectivity."

Godot 11 years ago

Again, swbsow, I challenge you to provide the verbiage that would be consitutionally acceptable in declaring war against, not a country, but a sect, or sects, but not all sects, of Islam?

Islam is not a country, is it? And, from what I read and hear, Islam is a religion with many facets, many interpretations?

How would you, in all your wisdom, advise the president in addressing this situation? Advice and consent, not obstruction and obfuscation, is, after all, the obligation of the Senate to the President.

Specifically, how would you, were you a Senator or a Member of Congress, propose this?

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Thank you Marion. You said it best. While we will be accused of wrapping ourselves in the flag of patriotism there are those who want to burn it in protest. I can think of a few on this forum that feed the Islamist position because of crossing the t's and dotting the i's. Way to go my fellow Americans.

Godot 11 years ago

swbsow wrote: "This is not about a religion or religious sects. It is about terrorism and terrorisys are not limited to a religion."

Oh, swbsow, Osama would be so proud of you for your obfuscation! Good job, oh, Jihadist!

The fact is, this is exactly about Al Qaeda and other Islamic declarations of war against all who do not convert. Convert, or die, that is the promise.

Godot 11 years ago

BTW, HGA, Islamic radicals, by definition, do not need the US to provide them with an excuse to organize and fight.

What was their excuse for organizing and fighting when they attacked the embassy in Kenya in the 90's, and bombed the Cole in 2000? Were they prophesizing the election of George Bush and just getting a head start, or did they just hate us because they wanted to rule the world and we stood in their way?

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Posted by swbsow (anonymous) on September 24, 2006 at 11:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, prairiepollyana, heaven forbid we actually would take our Constitution seriously .

There is no patriotism for those who would ignore the Constitution.

Were you talking Constitution OR War Powers resolution? Remind me because I believe there is about a 200 year difference in the documents and many Supreme Court rulings on what the Constitution actually says. The War Powers Resolution on the other hand has not been challenged. I wonder why when you feel like most Americans feel as you do?

xenophonschild 11 years ago

Well said, HGA.

Democrats who assume power in the upcoming elections will successfully prosecute the war against Muslim fundamentalists without betraying the Constitution

John McCain, Lindsay Graham and John Warner - Republicans all - showed themselves to be Americans first, and deserve our thanks for standing up to the neofascists in the present administration.

And William the Great went among our enemies at Fox and scattered them like chastened curs. They will tread more cautiously in the future.

And doesn't this latest version of "Godot" seem a lot like our deeply-lamented, lately-departed "hero of Saliwa"?

ASBESTOS 11 years ago

"The NIE dryly notes that we are not safer as a result of the Iraqi invasion; on the contrary, we are at a much greater risk of attack."

NICE try Xenoid, but that NIE has NOT been released, and has NOT been declassiied, and Se. Kennedy needs to shut up. The one line in the NIE with the so far released material is reported NOT the bulk of the assessment ans supposedly contains suggestions to eliminate the sectialian violence in Iraq, as well that eminating from Iran ans Syria.

So shut up about the NIE, all you know is what Yahoo. AOL, and PA, are reporting form some left wing web blogs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From SWBSOW:

"This group is responsible for 40,000 Columbian deaths in the last decade."

With all the CRAP that the Dems have hurled at the Bush Admin., do you think for one minute they would do anything unilaterally? Do you think that they would ever again go to another nations need or defend the homeland with all the grif and crap and withering fire that they have been assailed by for trying to do the right thing???

Do you think for one minute this group is going to do ANYTHING that will lable them liars, misleading people, or crooks, or the devil???

No the Bush Admin is gunshy. Brought to you by some self serving libs that could care less about the country and are MISLEADINGLY wrapping themselves in the flag to defenc deciet.

SWBSOW you are one of those. NO matter how it is explained to you it is beyond your reach and grasp that the war has been carried out with all protections in place. But you are NOT going to accept it. WHY?? You are more in tune to not liking what a Republican Admin comes up with, rather than analyzing facts and realizing what was done right.

For all of you that are so harsh on Bush and hate him so much. Here is a test. List some of the things you admire about him and policies of his that work with Iraq and the WoT.

I do not like Pres. Clinton and thought he acted alittle weird with Chris Wallace, however there are things and policies I do like about the man. Your ture, let's see how objective you are.

prairiepollyana 10 years, 12 months ago

Posted by holygrailale (anonymous) on September 26, 2006 at 6:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)


Review of the posting history will reveal that three people on this thread noted your poor English skills.

Three people: holygrailale tony88 just-another-bozo-on-the-bus

Out of the three, you are the only one to resort to using twisted words that you present as proof. You have been so brainwashed you have no concept of what you are saying, nor will you consider another person's view. You would argue with a signpost as long as your "information" was presented in the mainstream media. What a joke!

As I walk away from this "discussion" I will wrap myself in the American flag and pray the city commissioners are not stupid on their decision to place this question on the ballot.

ForThePeople 11 years ago


You forgot to add: lovineveryminuteofit janeb prairiepollyana en4cer ihatetotellyaso

You people are crazy, swbsow is not who you think she is! And I hope that the person you are stalking is pursuing legal action.....this has gone on way too long and needs to be stopped.....LJW MODS, ARE YOU PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO THE PSYCHO STUFF GOING ON UNDER YOUR NOSES? YOU ARE ALLOWING YOUR FORUM TO BE USED AS A VEHICLE FOR HARRASSMENT!!!

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

After reading many postings by holygrailale, one would ponder if being an English teacher by day and poster by night might be a crossing the line. The frustrations expressed by world politics seems to be taking it's toll, and the grailale cannot resist expressing disdain on the unsuspecting author who dares to post against her. I am afraid to post anything due to the fact she may give me an F on subject matter or grammar.

ForThePeople 11 years ago


Thanks for the advice, I'm fully aware of the legal avenues available.....and so is the individual that is being stalked!

I just think it's irresponsible of the JW mods to allow the forum to be used in this way!

as_I_live_and_breathe 10 years, 12 months ago

Posted by holygrailale :

Uhhh, A.I.L.A.B........"That's My Bush" was satire.

Uhhh, yeah, I know that. It was hysterical and I would bet Bush tivo'd it.

ForThePeople 11 years ago

WRONG Marion.....not the same person, but if your so sure...why don't you come up with some proof. I can tell you right now though, that swb has never registered or posted at RCT! And you are mistaken about swb on this site as well! Enforcer is incorrect and has really "barked" up the wrong tree on this one.

xenophonschild 11 years ago

George Bush's daughters probably love him.

Maybe his wife does. I doubt if his father truly respects him; the father remembers too vividly the son's drunken rages, the threats to assault him physically, the cocaine use, the drunk driving, the need to get him out of town, to hide him in the Texas Air National Guard, hid somewhere in a friend's political campaign.

The father undoubtedly remembers how his son was a failed oilman, how he never made a cent from all the oil-field explorations and drilling he did. The father must remember the funny business with the Texas Rangers, how his son wound up an owner without putting any in of his own money. George Senior must remember, after his mediocre progeny used his name and rich friends to take the Texas statehous, how the funeral home scandal unfolded, followed by the business dealings with Arbusto and Osama bid Laden's family, and the way Junior pandered to the fundies by murdering Karla Faye Tucker.

All in all, George Walker Bush should have spent his life as an insurance agent, or real estate broker, in Katy, Texas. We would all have been so much better off.

ForThePeople 11 years ago


The fruit hasn't fallen far from the tree!

ForThePeople 11 years ago

Posted by HGA:

Enforcer was a problem long before swbsow even showed up and you know it.

Yes, and she also was using multiples prior to that as well!

as_I_live_and_breathe 11 years ago

I like Bush. I like the way he looks at his wife. ( cannot say that for any recent democrats)

I like the way he talks. I like his jokes and his sense of humor. (democrats are pretty unfun)

I like that he's taken the war to the ones who want it and kept it for the most part off American land. (Democrats want to wait till they come back and have an intervention)

I like that he does what he says he's going to do and doesn't flail about trying to make everyone happy thereby comprimising his posiiton and our security. (no explination needed.)

I like the way he is with his girls. I like that he likes his ranch. I wish he'd come to my house for dinner.

I also love the short lived comedy central sitcom, THAT'S MY BUSH. and I bet he did too.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

holygrailale said;

PrariePollyanna, your disdain for me has nothing to do with my criticism of your English but more to do with my criticism of your statements.

You implied that we had declared War (the War Powers Act) on Iraq when we have not. Error of fact.

You also stated that swbsow wasn't in the majority with regard to public opinion on the Iraq invasion but you were in error with that statement as well.

I'm not a teacher, just someone who is attempting to figure out what the hell you are trying to communicate.

Not my bloody fault you don't know how to express yourself.

I find it interesting that you holygrailale, claim to not understand my postings but then try to interpret what you don't understand. Makes me think that you do that with the "facts" you so readily post to the unknowing that might fall for your tactics.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

lol holygrailale


I would say you use a "baiting tactic" more than facts and people fall for it. Tomorrow the city commission will make a decision on this issue. I hope sanity rules and they decide to keep the question off the ballot.

prairiepollyana 11 years ago

Another great tactic...attack when questioned.

I'd prefer not to listen to biased news coverage and not go blindly along my way.

I'll have to remind you that you stated you did not understand my postings, but here it is again, you are reading things into the posts and interperting what you would like them to say.

xenophonschild 10 years, 12 months ago

My colleague holygrailale is absolutely correct: contradiction without content is not dialogue.

A very relevant point was made recently one of the troglodytes who infest this site. He opined that William the Great was a "poor trailer park hillbilly that (sic) cheated and lied for everything."

That is a telling comment, not only about the individual who posted it, but the mind set of those who share his stunted version of reality.

What if William Jefferson Clinton had been born wealthy, with a rich, powerful father? I'd wager that the conservative wretches who infest this site would bow and grovel at his feet; conversely, that William the Great was born poor, and that he won all he achieved in life by strength of will and intellect, fills them with discontent, for he achieved much, much more than they, from their relatively privileged background.

Poor conservative wretches. So miserable, so transparently miserable - the amusing angle is that they are so dense they probably can't even grasp how miserable they truly are.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

From Xeno to show him talking out both sides of his er face.

"My colleague holygrailale is absolutely correct: contradiction without content is not dialogue.

A very relevant point was made recently one of the troglodytes who infest this site. He opined that William the Great was a "poor trailer park hillbilly that (sic) cheated and lied for everything.""


Quite a statement you did there Xeno, If you would have just stopped, but YOU went on...and did the VERY SAME THING you are giving other grief about! Geez dude! YOu follow it up with this:

"That is a telling comment, not only about the individual who posted it, but the mind set of those who share his stunted version of reality."


Now just how is that any different? I know, because YOU said it. YOu are right, it is a telling statement. You do what you criticize other do and YOU are totally unaware of it.


ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

I left out the psycho quote from Xeno, that was the saem as he was complaining of others:

"Poor conservative wretches. So miserable, so transparently miserable - the amusing angle is that they are so dense they probably can't even grasp how miserable they truly are."

How is that different from your complaint of :

"A very relevant point was made recently one of the troglodytes who infest this site. He opined that William the Great was a "poor trailer park hillbilly that (sic) cheated and lied for everything.""

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

"She advised that we essentially ignore the conservative troglodytes who infest this site, for they are ignorant, abusive, insulting, and do not add anything positive to any discussion."

That is saying yur argument is no good and you lost the debate. then you label your adversaries as ignorant abusive, etc.

YEAH, well how the mighty Lawrencian Liberals have fallen. The intellectuals whom claim to have an open mind and sound judgement, have NO FACTS and cannot defend their position on IRAQ, because they HAVE NO POSITION other than to bitch at Bush.

When You have no facts and complain about others use of english and punctuation well!

This is what is the probelm with today's liberalism, you are not as intelligent, and insightful as you think.

You have had you hats handed to you by a few stupid conservatives, now you don't want to play anymore.


ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

Well it's like the Plame story that has been discredited and shown for what it is. But it still gets rehashed.

That is much worse than poor spelling. I will accept poor spelling and bad grammar anyday if there is original thought and good analysis. Even if the analysis is wrong.

What I see out of the left is repeat the story so many times that people start thinking it is real. Then when the truth comes along, no one can recognize. ANd Yes the Right does that as well.

But it is much more worse than a spelling or gramatical error in my book. That is why I ignore them and think they are no big deal. Criticism of them to me are no big deal either. But I do try, and I do suck at typing and editing. Analysis and fact finding OTOH, I am good at that.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

Fisrt HGA the President did not commit treason, second Ms. Plane was a CIA Analyst,..not a Secretservice agent, that is a different department It is not that this Republican is SOOOO bad, it is that you hate and disagree with him SOOOO much. YOu ignore the fact that this man changed the very way we look at and react to terrorism.

WOuldn't know about the last 2, as I don't hit women, I open doors for them, and I don't drink more that 1 drink an evening.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 12 months ago

HGA all your posts are regurgitated old news. You left out all the stuff that has happened since Armitage came forward. You have posted NOTHING that is recent and revelent since his disclosure of being the "primary source".

IF Plame was a NOC, then Armitage Outed her by his own admission. Why is he not being investigated and prosecuted???


You can't scream "Carl Rove" on this one.

Please. You put yourself up as an intellectual, please debate like it too.

Using old reports as "fact" when the disclosure rendered a whole new playing field is intelectually dishonest.

Carl ROve may piss you off, You may hate Pres. BUsh and VP Cheney, however, it was Armitage who had the big mouth.

It was the press that ran story after story on a non-story, when the real story was........

how did Joe Wilson get put on that Niger trip when he did not have the experience nor the clearance inviolation of the CIA nepotism regulations?????

THAT is the story.

Godot 10 years, 12 months ago

HGA wrote: "I stand corrected.

I guess Joe Wilson wasn't the Ambassador in Niger but I think you can see that his curriculum vitae in Africa is impressive. " A little flustered, are we?

ASBESTOS 10 years, 11 months ago


YOUR vaunted references to your New York times article that was reporting on the Special Counsel's report was that Joe WIlson "was not qualified to go opn the trip" because he did not have the necessary experience in "blackmarket transfers of materials" nor did he have the necassary experience on radioactive materials or ordniance grade uranium". Fine hw was in NIger, OK. But the rest is counterproductive to the needs of the mission.

YOU, HGA need to read your own soruces!

The only thing your list of dates showed is that Joe WIlson is a first class beaureacrat and but kisser. Nothing more.

His "Ambassador experience" has NOTHING to do tracking down ordniance grade uranium.

To even try to make that claim is crazy and dishonest. That is the difference between having a Phd. and wisdom. I will take wisdom any day.

ASBESTOS 10 years, 11 months ago

YOur "wisdom" is really insanity. That is what all the manical haha's indicate.

You cannot see any different perspective other than your own. All your blather in no way points to the main issue and the main point.

THAT point remains.

IF all you say is true:

WHY is Mr. Armitage, being the "primary source" not under arrest?

Explain that one to me!

Here ya go from a right wing blog wiht Joe Wilson's quotes from his trip to Niger.

National Review (I know you won't read it, others will)

Austin Bay Blog:

Washington Post:

The nest Hurrah: The Outing of Joe Wilson:

More "Joe Wilson is a liar:

More Joe Wilson lied:

More Joe lied:

There is a mountian of information and opinion out ther HGA, you just choose only to show your side. Well, I did not and try to stay out of the political blog and make my own mind up. You however want to play "link fight" and "quote" fight! FINE. BUt it is not discussion is NOT LEARNING!

SO don;t even try to talk to me about being an "open mind" (yours is as closed as it gets) and "wisdom", as you cannot get past your own preconceived notions and have to follow the party line all the way.

You talk about haveing a mind of your own...WELL DO YOU???

ASBESTOS 10 years, 11 months ago

WAY off topic of YOUR own argument.

That point is .... again,

IF all you say is true, as big of a deal as you say, and correct:

Why is Armitage not under arrest for outing Plame?

Can't answer that basic FACT can you?

Your last post BTW was as you say:


Misrepresentation and distortion is all you have.


"Joe Wilson went to Niger on the CIA tab and confirmed that."

Joe WIlson sat around a pool and talked to NO ONE of any Significance. What a loon!

"Yes, I have read the non-blog sources and you are misrepresenting what they say."

Oh and you NEVER do that. You do that exact same thing constantly AND you misrepresented your last 3 references.

as_I_live_and_breathe 10 years, 11 months ago

"What if William Jefferson Clinton had been born wealthy, with a rich, powerful father? "

then he'd be a republican!!!!

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