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Archive for Saturday, September 16, 2006

Pope’s remarks prompt Muslim anger, protests

Catholic leader quotes obscure jihad text

September 16, 2006

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— Pakistan's legislature unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of reviving the mentality of the Crusades.

Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on Islam and jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that many fear could burst into violent protests like those that followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

By citing an obscure Medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman," Benedict inflamed Muslim passions and aggravated fears of a new outbreak of anti-Western protests.

The last outpouring of Islamic anger at the West came in February about the prophet cartoons first published in a Danish newspaper. The drawings sparked protests - some of them deadly - in almost every Muslim nation in the world.

Some experts said the perceived provocation by the spiritual leader of more than a billion Roman Catholics could leave even deeper scars.

"The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world," said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy. "The cartoons just came from an artist."

The pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

Worshippers protest comments made by Pope Benedict XVI after Friday prayers at Egypt's Al-Azhar mosque, Cairo. A growing chorus of Muslim leaders have called on the pope to apologize for a quotation he cited about Islam.

Worshippers protest comments made by Pope Benedict XVI after Friday prayers at Egypt's Al-Azhar mosque, Cairo. A growing chorus of Muslim leaders have called on the pope to apologize for a quotation he cited about Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," Benedict said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

The pope did not explicitly agree with nor repudiate the comment.

On Friday, Pakistan's parliament adopted a resolution condemning Benedict for making what it called "derogatory" comments about Islam, and seeking an apology. Hours later, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret about the pope's remarks Tuesday.

Notably, the strongest denunciations came from Turkey - a moderate democracy seeking European Union membership where Benedict is scheduled to visit in November as his first trip as pope to a Muslim country.

Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi has tried to defuse anger, saying the pope did not intend to offend Muslim sensibilities and insisting Benedict respects Islam. In Pakistan, the Vatican envoy voiced regret at "the hurt caused to Muslims."

But Muslim leaders said outreach efforts by papal emissaries were not enough.

Comments

Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

The action:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."-- Emperor Manuel II Paleologus, in a dialogue with and a Persian scholar in 1391; as quoted by Pope Benedict XVI in Regensburg last week.

The "eager to prove the Pope and Paleologus right" reaction:

"If the stupid pig [Pope Benedict XVI] is prancing with his blasphemies in his house, then let him wait for the day coming soon when the armies of the religion of right knock on the walls of Rome."-- Ansar al-Sunna, Iraq

"We tell the worshipper of the cross that you and the West will be defeated... [Allah] enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen."-- Al-Qaida, Iraq

The courageous Muslim reaction:

"The Pope's words, while quoting the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus, about the expansion of Islam through the sword, either at Muhammed's times inside the Arabian Peninsula and after his death outside it (with some exceptions), underline an undeniable historical truth."-- Magdi Allam, leading Muslim commentator in Italy

"The Pope is threatened because he has said things that every single honest and reasoning Muslim should accept: the historical truth."-- Magdi Allam, leading Muslim commentator in Italy

The reactionary Western liberal knee-jerk reaction:

"Radical Christianity is just as threatening as radical Islam in a country like America where we have a separation of church and state. We're a democracy here."-- Rosie (Burkhas aren't so bad, they're actually quite slimming) O'Donnell

The "radical" Christian counter-reaction:

"I forgive, I forgive."

The last words of Sister Leonella Sgorbati to those immediately around her as she died in Mogadishu after being shot by two of the Prophet's more intrepid sons, who were quite eager to prove the Pope correct. (So "intrepid" BTW, that they shot her in the back!)
See story at: Zenit.org. "Religious in Somalia Died Forgiving Her Killers," MOGADISHU, Somalia, SEPT. 18, 2006

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fcraig 7 years, 10 months ago

How come I never see Jews " Demanding " an apology from the Islamic world for wanting them " Wiped off the face of the earth "?

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Steve Jacob 7 years, 10 months ago

fcraig, your right, but "evil and inhuman" from the pope? Why is it the more religious you are (any of them) the less tolerant you are of others?

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fairylight 7 years, 10 months ago

Why is it news? Unless or until the Muslim community, in America and across the world come out and publicly state they do NOT agree with the head lopping, suicide mongering, murderousous tactics of what many now see AS the Islamic religion........I have to beleive most Muslim DO want Westerners and/or NON Arabic Muslims DEAD!

I realize that periodically there have been tiny blurbs on the news and in print from a tiny portion of SOME Muslims saying they do not agree with the terroristic approach or this jihad. HOWEVER, We are not seeing this in droves!..Until they begin to chant, squeal and protest IN NUMBER against the murdour of Americans or Westerners, Untill they IN PUBLIC and in numbers decry the violence of jihad, I will continue to beleive that ISLAM DOES want us all dead!

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Moderateguy 7 years, 10 months ago

Well said fairlylight. So the Muslim community is outraged by the Pope referring to a quote from a medieval text and a cartoon in a newspaper. Well, the rest of the world is outraged by the horrific murders commited every day throughout the world in the name of your so called peace loving religion. If you are a peace loving Muslim and are offended, good. You should be offended, but not by anything the Pope said. I personally have no use for Christianity either, but the believers of peace need to take back their religions. Let's see some banners and yelling in the streets about that. I'm not holding my breath for that one though.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

I am tired dog tired of muslims being insulted all the time. They need to grow a thicker skin.

They are outraged just because westerners and other religion are in existence. Our very existence is what humiliates and insults the yahoos.

I am tired ot THEIR inate intollerance and issues of self esteem.

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Tychoman 7 years, 10 months ago

Wow I wonder what the world would be like if most Christians took their religion as seriously as the Islamic nations that were insulted by this.

The pope shouldn't have cited that in a speech, anyway. What possible point could have been made?

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jonas 7 years, 10 months ago

"(insert misc. cause) prompt muslim anger, protests."

While, clearly, the pope is an idiot for saying what he did, muslim folk need to learn to frickin' relax. It's just a religion, the whole world doesn't hang in the balance. They should try to be more like Christians, and just mutter loudly when they get insulted. Less damage that way.

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BrianR 7 years, 10 months ago

Islam has a long way to go before it has as much blood on its hands as the Catholic Church.

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Tychoman 7 years, 10 months ago

Marion could you translate your question into English? It doesn't make any sense.

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GardenMomma 7 years, 10 months ago

"...and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'" Doesn't that sound like it's saying that trying to force your religion onto someone else by force is what's "evil and inhuman?"

I don't know in what context the Pope was citing the text, but the excerpt here seems to me that it is intended as a warning about trying to force your religious beliefs upon others by force.

Remember, these things were said in the 14th century (that's 700 years ago) and who knows if that is the actual wording. But it does make a bit of sense if you think about it. Isn't it because people are arguing over whose "god" is "better" or "right" that many wars are fought? I think anyone would agree that wars are "evil and inhuman" and that fighting a war to turn others to your own beliefs is also evil and inhuman. That's how I interpret this quote.

Of course, the LJW doesn't cite the entire quote from the Pope or even why he said it. Typical.

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paladin 7 years, 10 months ago

Oh, hey! Just who is the Pope anyway? Is he somehow, miraculously, related to Jesus Christ? Mmmmmm, I don't think so. St. Peter, or Peter? Nah. He is just another schmuck trying to make a living and being able to do it on the backs of the poor and disadvantaged. And, he''s a success! Look how he travels, and how he lives. The muslims are angry about the expression of arrogance and power, as they perceive it, of one man, claiming deity, telling them anything at all. They perceive this as a threat, and rightly so. The Pope should not get involved in worldly affairs and confine his energies to seducing and maniputating and fleecing his flock.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Jonas, Why is the Pope an idiot? He quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

I think if anyone is an idiot, it looks like it was Manuel Paleologos II. He's the one who said.. ."Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

Sounds pretty accurate to me but then I only have current headlines and news breaks to go by.

Also, the Pope did not explicitly agree with nor repudiate the comment. He simply pointed out that for a long time Muslim have been p/$$ed off and mean.

So now growing chorus of Muslim leaders have called on the pope to apologize. Well I'm not exactly the Pope, but I'm a snapper so here's my appology.

I am so sorry.
I am sorry that the "prophet" you chose to follow was a homocidal war monger.

I am sorry that your leaders are mysogynistic, hatefilled troglydites that think the best way to prove that islam is a religion of peace is to bomb a synagog and behead somebody.

I'm sorry that you are humorless, intolerant, red-necks. May no God but God have mercy on your souls.
Mea Culpa-Mea Culpa-Mea Culpa

Everybody happy now?

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xenophonschild 7 years, 10 months ago

Death to Islam.

Death to all the old sky-god religions, those pathetic, age-old lies that inflame small minds and threaten our very existence.

I'll be glad when we suck the last drop of oil out of headbanger-for-Allah land, so we can leave and they can slap flies and scratch themselves while they consider how insignificant they and their vile religion are.

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paladin 7 years, 10 months ago

They are reacting, and acting, just as they did against the Crusaders, not so long ago. Is it wrong? I don't think so.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Thank you swbsow.... What a nice speach.....How come they didn't latch on to this quote.

"Not to act reasonably (with logos) is contrary to the nature of God," said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university. "

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Maybe it was the nicest one he could find about them????

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paladin 7 years, 10 months ago

Evidently, we are ready to try to kill them all. Let er RIP!

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

I don't think we should kill them all. we should just take the kids under 5 or 6, that haven't been fully indoctrinated into the haters club and sterilize the rest so we can get and keep the numbers down and then put them on a reservation with no tv. radio or newspapers so they can't get upset about what goes on the the real world. and forget about them......

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

And in Turkey, the ruling party likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini .

LOL

this is rich.... the muslims want to eliminate all the jews and the POPE IS LIKE HITLER?????

in the words of another poster.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Kelly Powell 7 years, 10 months ago

wow! somebody managed to insert redneck in their rant about islam....I wouldnt of guessed it possible.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

I would agree, but you also don't lop off their heads or fly a plane into a building.

Seriously ... you can talk smack on Jesus all day long and most rational people aren't going to go berserk and strap bombs on their children and send them to the mall.

So Pope Ben was a hitler youth? ouch.. well that does make him the devil obviously.... surely he couldn't have had any kind of change of heart over the past decades...Maybe hit the confessional??.... said a few Hail Mary's and got all that taken care of?? ...... Is he currently rounding up Jews for a free train ride?

I haven't heard any sermons lately calling for me to kill a Jew for lent.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

swbsow... they get up set over the sunday comics.... mini skirts, journalists, education for women.... most any type of progress.... jews, christians, buddists, anyone that isn't muslim breathing.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

"What is the saying? You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

Do you suppose that is in the Koran?????

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jonas 7 years, 10 months ago

I don't know if the Pope IS an idiot, just said that he was an idiot to use that particular quote, because it sounds bad and insulting, and the islamic community is. . . twitchy, at best.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Yes, Swb I am - And I am also aware that a HUGE majority of Christians speak out against the KKK and are not millions of them.

I would agree that all KKK members should be subject to the same deal suggested in my post of 6:03 pm. as should the Phelps of Topeka

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Brandon Devlin 7 years, 10 months ago

Hold on folks. . .maybe the Pope didn't "use poor judgement" when he quoted that text. . .

It could be that he is calling for a true dialog between non-Muslims and those non-extremist Muslims who don't believe that the Jihadists are really following the teachings of Muhammed and the Qur'an. There are scholars who believe that the whole "spread by the sword" piece is really just pointing to a "zealous" spreading of the word, not specifically a violent method.

If Muslims really don't believe that the Jihad is the "way to go," then we really do need a dialog so we can come to an understanding and so that we can fight a common enemy. . .because as I see it, just as many Muslims are being killed everyday as non-Muslims by the extremists.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Ok first off, after reading this, i realize we need to create a new industry. A service that would provide personal policy wonks to every American to help us make sure we don't accidentally say something that someone else MIGHT for what ever reason, might dissagree with them...

If it's in your book, your bible, that you should take a sword to anyone that doesn't subscribe to your belief, why would you be upset that someone mentions it.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Posted by swbsow (anonymous) on September 16, 2006 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

AILAB, have you actually read the Quran? I'm curious as you seem to think you understand Islam as a religion.

Do you know that the Quran mentions Jesus several times, referring to him as "God's beloved one"? Did you know that Islam shares the same creation story as Christians and Jews?


No I don't understand Islam as a political force. I understand some muslims think that they are a peace loving religion but thier leaders, the big wigs, or big turbans or what ever, they ain't.

Yes, I did know they speak of Jesus. why wouldn't they He's the bomb.... ooopps Not bomb like BOOM bomb like the coolest. he's not all "off with their heads". why did they pick the scociopath to follow after Abraham?

Creation "story"? What, you mean they believe in creationism ???? poor ignorant fools.

Look your arguments are good but they are directed at the wrong people. I DON"T think we should kill off a race of people. I would REALLY like it if thier leaders were able to sit down and rationally discuss the needs of the world .... but time and time again, they have proven that is NOT in their agenda and for the most part the majority of thier followers plod along after them like sheep.

I can't respect that any more than I can respect a catholic that knowingly protects pedophile priests. If your church leader is bad..... remove them.....

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

I think the muslims are the ones that missed the point of the speach....

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

lol yes i can see the headlines Buddists demand reincarnation of all dead people. Those refusing to be reincarnated are forced to be cockroaches for three lifetimes.

You keep bring up all these christian nuts like reed and robertson but really .... I haven't seen a recent video of them or their followers cutting off the head of a National Enquirer reporter.

And I know in the past, christians have been pretty blood thirsty but.... for the most part, in recent history haven't - christians have evolved to the point that we don't or feel the need to kill people who don't worship our way or who for some crazy reason were born a jew.

Some muslims seem to be stuck in the dark ages and the rest of the world really doesn't want to go back there.

You are right, It is difficult to get a true dialog going if you make inflammatory statements (deliberate or not) about people's religion. But it's also difficult to dialog when your head is 10 feet from your body.

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BrianR 7 years, 10 months ago

My commentisn't silly, its a fact. Do your research.

Marion, you're putting words in my mouth - I would never want a Muslim extremist to harm a hair on your head, or anybody else's head for that matter.

The jihadists must be stopped, they want to dominate the world and that simply isn't an option in my opinion.

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roger_o_thornhill 7 years, 10 months ago

Nothing like an intolerant comment (intentional or not) to expose other's intolerance. Nothing like referring to large, LARGE groups of people as though they are all of one mind. Also I love hearing people talking out of their asses as much as doing it myself.

REMINDER TO ALL! All sorts of people have killed all sorts of other people for all sorts of reasons. No one has a monopoly on murder or stupidity.

Note to people who are offended by others feelings of offence: This doesn't make sense! It is like getting mad at someone because they are mad at someone else.

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I_was_there 7 years, 10 months ago

Someone commented that the Muslims need to be rounded up and confined in a place without any tv, radio and newspapers? Meanwhile, most of the opinions expressed here were formed without first hand knowledge of ANYTHING. You are relying on reports you are getting from tv, radio and newspapers. And the generalizations about Muslims and the statements that suggest that they are mostly all bad people is just plain ignorant.

I live in the United States in a neighborhood that is majority Muslim with Hindus a close second and Christians badly trailing in third place. I have Muslim friends and Hindu friends (oh yeah, and Christian friends). I have been to the mosques with some of my Muslim friends to experience their religion. Personally, I was raised a Roman Catholic but I consider myself an agnostic and I believe that more inhumanity has been done in the name of religion than any other belief system (and that means Communism). Nonetheless, when I go to a church, synagogue, temple, or mosque, (which is not too often) I respect my hosts and do not insult their religion. And it is a pretty good exercise of discretion not to insult other religions, generally. Definitely, the Pope used poor judgment. He should come out and say he disagrees with the remarks he quoted; not just express regret at the angry reaction to them.

In my experience, all Muslims I know think that the acts of the individuals who flew those planes into the WTC are to be condemned. They will tell you that if you talk to them. Who are you to say that they are required to hold a press conference denouncing extremists? When was the last time you or the Pope held a press conference denouncing the KKK? I can't remember the last time I saw that happen. Unfortunately, peacful Muslims quietly attending their mosques is not very newsworthy. Also, peaceful Muslims (who are the vast majority) do not owe an apology to anyone for the acts of those few extremists who take up arms. Of course, loud crowds burning the Pope in effigy and carrying around heads on sticks is a much better news photo than the vast majority of peaceful Muslims quietly going to their mosques. No one is going to get a Pulitzer for the latter.

as_I_live_and_breathe: you need to read more history and expand your horizons...or lock yourself in a room without tv, radio or a newspaper.

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I_was_there 7 years, 10 months ago

While most Muslims I know condemn the extremists that flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon, they will also tell you that they strongly disagree with American policy towards Israel. While we defend Israel on the grounds that they are a democracy, the Arab world looks as Israel as a state that was created by America after the end of WWII and that it was akin to me giving your car to my friend. They see America as the country that engineered the give away of Arab land to Jews who mostly immigrated to Israel from Europe (and now from Brooklyn). (Please spare me any historical arguments on this point. I have heard them all.) This is the source of much resentment by Muslims worldwide regardless of whether they are peaceful Muslims or extremists.

I hope this helps, none2.

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I_was_there 7 years, 10 months ago

Pilgrim says there is no refutation of the quote!

The Quran preaches family values more strongly and directly than the Bible. The family is the root of all in Islam. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the centrality of the family is also the basis for the role (some say subjugation) of woman by devout practitioners who want their women to be much the same as evangelical Christians - i.e. barefoot and pregnant in the home - while the men make all of the important life and family decisions (albeit in consultation with the wife).

Sounds very evil and inhuman, eh? Seems only about spreading the religion with the force of a sword, eh?

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

swb - Ok look I can't justify anything for abortion bombers but you have to agree at least they stay on task. I mean they hate abortionists so they attack abortionists. I can simply choose not to kill babies and for the most part those folks will leave me alone. Do I think the bombers should be punished - yes Would I convict them myself - yes. and I would have not problem invoking the death penalty if they killed others in the attack. Hypocritcal? I suppose but there has to be rules as well as freedom and responsibility and order ( oh the 70's flower child in me is throwing up) . Blowing people up is bad, m'Kay?

Can you give me and other non muslims a suggestion as to what exactly we can do to keep radical islamofacists from killing me in a random suicide bombing? They aren't really too specific. I suppose I could convert but... really I don't think I can fit jihad in between my spinning class and my volunteer work.

Iwas there, you say : "Nonetheless, when I go to a church, synagogue, temple, or mosque, (which is not too often) I respect my hosts and do not insult their religion. And it is a pretty good exercise of discretion not to insult other religions, generally. " I would TOTALLY Agree. So how do you justify the actions of radial islam? They are not only insulting my religion, they are cutting the heads off my nuns.... come on. You would be the first in line to condem a christian for doing the things these freaks are doing.

You also say: "Definitely, the Pope used poor judgment. He should come out and say he disagrees with the remarks he quoted."

I think he did disagree with the remark he quoted. The whole point of the speach was how we should not use violence to bring people to GOD. Or are you saying the POPE should say that Mohammed never said to spread the faith by the sword? He should rewrite history to make M. less threatening and more user friendly?

I am so confused ..... Why would ANY non muslim defend these radicals. You would never defend fred phelps or Charlie Manson. Maybe you are right and I should go to my room. Hopefully no one will take a notion to bomb it....

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Scene, we are discussing the fact that right now, in this century, radical muslims are killing innocent people.

I'm not scared that a crusader is going to crash thru my place of employment and run me thru with a sword.... I do worry that a sleeper cell might ram a carload of explosives in to my childs school.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Posted by I_was_there (anonymous) on September 17, 2006 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"While most Muslims I know condemn the extremists that flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon" Please watch our for the ones that don't .....

Posted by I_was_there (anonymous) on September 17, 2006 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"The Quran preaches family values more strongly and directly than the Bible. The family is the root of all in Islam. " So encouraging your kid to become a suicide bomber is a family value??? I suppose there were those times during the teen age years that I might have agreed to that.....

I more and more think there needs to be more cafetieria muslims. Just pick out the happy parts and stop the hating part.

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BrianR 7 years, 10 months ago

Marion, I didn't mean to equate what one group did to what another group is doing now, just to state that the Catholic Church is'nt just a hapless victim of history. In fact, it could be argued that they once posed a similar threat to the world. Not exactly, just similar because the obviously didn't have the weaponry the jihadists have or the internet, etc.

Dominionists of all stripes need to be stopped - there is room for all.

Anyhoo, I definitely don't want anything to happen to you because you are the only person I know who can truly appreciate the curative properties of Guinness, you know, in small, medicinal doses.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

The Quran preaches family values more strongly and directly than the Bible. The family is the root of all in Islam

that nun who got her head cut off had family.... the people in the WTC had families... I guess islamic families are more important than non islamic families....OOOHHH that's right.... we are infidels.... lower that the snake... we should not be allowed to be outside in the rain for fear that a drop of rain that falls on us should splatter on to a pure muslim and defile him.....

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

I_was_there:

"While most Muslims I know condemn the extremists that flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon, they will also tell you that they strongly disagree with American policy towards Israel. While we defend Israel on the grounds that they are a democracy, the Arab world looks as Israel as a state that was created by America after the end of WWII and that it was akin to me giving your car to my friend. They see America as the country that engineered the give away of Arab land to Jews who mostly immigrated to Israel from Europe (and now from Brooklyn). (Please spare me any historical arguments on this point. I have heard them all.) This is the source of much resentment by Muslims worldwide regardless of whether they are peaceful Muslims or extremists."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

First: "Most muslims" DON"T condem those activities of WTC and the Pentagon. Besides what they do not like about Israel is NO reason to kill Americans.

Second: The US did NOT creat Israel, EUROPE did, specifically Britian. IF the Islamo-Idiots cannot read a history book, well that is no reason to get the U.S. Using YOUR analogy "it would be like me keying your friends car because someone else hit mine". What a stupid statement.

Third: you can obviously see that Arab resentment is thne misplaced because of point number 2. "Like the poor marksman you are, You keep missing the target"..Cap'n. Kirk to Kahn. (Cool huh! Kahn, you get it?)

Fourth: the Islamic people need to take a worldwide chill pill. They get "humiliated" or "resent others" at the drop of a proverbial hat. A cartoon sets them off and they rampage and kill, the Pope makes a statement they burn churches and kill a nun. I think the price for their "humiliation" is as was the rage in the Israel-Hizbullah conflict, "Disproportionate" as was their reaction to the cartoon in a Danish newspaper.

If their price for "humiliation" is riots and cutting peoples heads off, then I guess following that proportionality, a few well placed nukes for our soldiers and those In the 9/11 victims, Kohbar, Beriut barraks, etc. would be just fine.

As stated in the "Legend of Billie Jean" "What's fair is fair"

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

Aren't we the Citizens of the United States of American allowed by the world to be "outraged" or feel "humiliated" by these unrealistic Islamo-idiots?

Do we have the right as a nation to respond in a prideful American way? Or do we need Koffi's permission.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

Swbsow,

"AILAB, have you actually read the Quran?"

I don't know about AILAB, but yes, a number of times. Not very interesting reading as I'm not a nomadic desert wanderer with a habit of worshipping rocks and a penchant for camel's milk, hence I was not really the target audience!

Was this question rhetorical or were you getting at something specific?

"Do you know that the Quran mentions Jesus several times, referring to him as "God's beloved one"? Did you know that Islam shares the same creation story as Christians and Jews?"

Yes, and it mentions the Virgin birth, venerates Mary and attempts to regurgitate OT figures and stories while tying them to Arabian peninsular culture. The problem is that it does it all very poorly. Knowing something of the period, the prophet developed, as a caravan guide, an imperfect understanding of Judaism in general and Christianity in particular, being exposed to Nestorianism, hence his wrong interpretation of the Triune God being Father/ Son/Mary. This also led to his error in believing the "Advocate" promised by Christ was none other than himself (Mohammed), as opposed to the Holy Spirit that showed up 50 days after the ascension of Christ at Pentecost.

The "peaceful" Suras were written prior to the prophet's conquests of Mecca and Medina when Mohammed had no political power and was still struggling to bring monotheistic concepts to Bedouins. After the capture of the holy cities, political power was consolidated, aggression became the instrument and the Suras expounding the virtues of killing nonbelievers were written.

"As far as Jihad, many Muslims can't agree on what that really means."

But, here's the peach: many do agree and they are the ones who can manipulate a marginalized people with a massive inferiority complex who live under corrupt governments. It goes something like this: (1) when beneficial it means the internal struggle over vice and temptation for those living in Dar-al-Islam; (2) also when beneficial it means open combat in Dar-al-Harb.

"I think it is far more productive to focus on the things that we share and I think on focusing on those things will encourage more of the moderate Muslims to come out and help defeat the extremists."

While focusing on those things we have in common is great and helps build trust, ignoring what separates us can be disastrous by setting us up for continued struggle over even longer periods of time. People should be free to say as they please and the Pope's comments were true (citing relevant sources) and on target. The thin skinned should grow up. Truth is not watered down to palatability (although this seems the default position of many on this board). His religion is attacked by East and West with impunity with all matter of slander and disinformation, but you don't see his adherents cutting off heads, flying planes into buildings, setting off IEDs, or strapping on a suicide vest.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

RIght on Lepanto!

Stated much better than my post. Kudos!

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I_was_there 7 years, 10 months ago

Again, a few Muslim extremists commit an act and many folks on this site are quick to condemn all Muslims, either explicitly or implicitly.

ASBESTOS writes "the Islamic people need to take a worldwide chill pill." And I bet he can count the Muslims he knows on one hand, if that. So he has no brief to write that "Most Muslims DON'T condemn WTC and Pentagon" except that he believes what he wants to believe based on the press reports that conform with his pre-established views.

AILAB writes "that nun who got her head cut off had family.... the people in the WTC had families... I guess islamic families are more important than non islamic families....OOOHHH" He ignores that approximately 100 of the dead, including at least one NYC firefighter, who died at the WTC were Muslims, and by responding in this manner he implies that all Muslims are extremists.

I am probably wasting my time on you folks who seem dead set in your prejudicial and parochial views.

I am not defending ANYONE who kills anyone. Those people suck! But if you do not understand how people think, and you don't learn from history, you are bound to continue to alienate all people that are different from yourself, and you are destined to suffer the same slings and arrows as those who passed before.

Finally, yeah the Pope correctly quoted 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II. When will he start quoting Hitler? And I guess he'll do that correctly, too. I think he could choose better folks to quote.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

"and by responding in this manner he implies that all Muslims are extremists."

No he most certianly did not. His posts show a very good ability to differentiate, between Islamo terrorists and Fatithful muslims. YOur saying and implying he is racist and is sterotyping ain't gonna work here, cause it ain't true.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I am not defending ANYONE who kills anyone."

NO but you are going out of your way to Ciriticize someone with a VALID position that Terrorist muslims have no call at all to be offended.

It is time for this religion to take a chill pill or excommunicate those that ate killing in Allah's and Mohammed's name. They either need to take action and shut up this faction or get out of the way.

This islamic extremism is a cancer on the world and needs to be cut out.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

I_was_there,

"I am probably wasting my time on you folks who seem dead set in your prejudicial and parochial views."

As I'm sure are we.

"Finally, yeah the Pope correctly quoted 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II. When will he start quoting Hitler? And I guess he'll do that correctly, too."

Had Hitler commented he would have done so with no contemporary experience and certainly with no subject matter expertise, so his would be an irrelevant citation. Palelogos on the other hand, well, let's just say he was intimately familiar with the Seljuk and speaks with a bit more authority.

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Godot 7 years, 10 months ago

Pope quotes a 14th century Byzantine who says that Islam calls for conformity to Islam by force of the sword, and the Muslim Imams respond with threats of death, Muslim followers with fire bombings of Christian churches, and the back-shooting murder of a Catholic nun serving children in a Muslim hospital.

At the same time, Muslim warriors kill many other Muslims who cooperate with a perceived Christian nation (aka the US), and the Imams do not issue a comdemnation of those murders.

Actions speak for themselves.

Muslim leaders in Kansas, where are your public condemnations of the murders of Muslims by Muslims, and of Christians and Jews by Muslims, in the name of Islam?

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Tychoman 7 years, 10 months ago

Godot, Muslims and imams all over the WORLD have made these condemnations you people scream for whenever something like this comes up. Try reading the news instead of just looking at it.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

Das Ubermime, I wasn't able to handle anything in sufficient detail, but please respond to what may be lacking. I condensed your comments as much as possible.

"Ah, but Lepanto, your argument hinges around the quote being either accurate or appropriate, a position which I will maintain is neither. Accuracy: The quote states that all of the ways in which Islam is different from other religions are evil and inhuman with special reference to jihad and conversion by force:They do not have policies of eating babies or stealing from small children, at least not that I know of, so I cannot say that the religion as a whole is "inhuman". Rather, it seems that the greatest argument comes from the conversion by force."

These are narrow definitions of "inhuman." Writers through the centuries as diverse as Pascal to Churchill to Victor Davis Hanson have thought otherwise. Islam today is characterized by the subjugation of women, the still barbaric practices of "justice," the inability to break the bondage of a slave/master relationship with God, which clearly is at the root of their inability to reconcile with modernism, and worstly, a culture which produces nothing, but religion. To see it any other way, is to view the exceptions as opposed to the rule. Islam has produced numb societies of no jobs, no technology, and nothing even resembling laissez faire, only a burning furnace of blame displacement onto others (the West) for the conditions in which they find themselves here in the 21st century.

I believe this is "inhuman."

"It is certainly not true that Muslim countries have always tried to convert people by force (though there certainly are examples of this as any Zoroastrian will tell you), and many countries had a policy of taxation for other religions, rather than violent conversion -- as you are well aware given that you have discussed such a thing on another thread. However, violent conversion also characterized numerous Christian conquests as well."

Conversion was rarely the issue of Christian violence. This is a deep issue that will require much room to explain. For brevity, I'll make one comment and expound upon it if desired. During the Crusades, conversion of the Saracen was a very low priority. The crusaders wanted Jerusalem and the near east, lands that were formerly known as staunchly Christian.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

Das Ubermime (Continued):

Here's quick proof. In the 200 years of the existence of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and Outremer, never was a move made to conquer the Arabian Peninsula or Mecca and Medina. The Crusader kingdom wanted to take back and establish a presence to defend what they believed was rightly theirs, namely Jerusalem and eastern Med to clear the way for pilgrims south. Conversion was never a real issue. Evangelization took the normal course of today and was left to monks and the likes of Francis of Assisi and Ignatius Loyola, who quickly abandoned the notion seeing the futility.

"I'm sure you do not need reminding of the crusader policy of killing everyone and let God sorting them out."

In 1099, Godfrey pleaded with the governor to give up the city, once it was clear it would fall, rendering something along the lines of: I plead you relinquish and safe passage will be given, as I will not be able to restrain the passion of the soldiers if they must fight further to take now what they may have to pay for in more blood. It is the details of history that are the devil. Mercies were rendered (most certainly this case). The sack would have been something Titus Flavius would have recognized from a thousand years earlier who reclaimed the city for Rome. This is not an excuse, just context. Wholesale barbarism is often mythologized for some ridiculous modern political agenda, but rarely supported by facts.

"Nor do you need reminding of what the Spaniards did to people of other faiths when they completed their conquest of Spain."

Das U, it was a reconquista! The Spanish fought for 700 years to take back what was their own, taken from them by the Muslim Moors in the 8th century. Force of arms and the Inquisition were the methods to achieve this by the 15th century. The Inquisition was a tribunal for those professing the Catholic faith. It was not a tool of conversion. It was a tool of enforcement. Those who converted, but practiced Islam in private were in deep pooh.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

Das Ubermime (Continued):

"Heck, when you throw in the conquest of the Americas and the violence associated with the Reformation in the Holy Roman Empire and England, I think it starts to become apparent that characterizing Islam as being innovators of violent conversion is far from the truth. A better argument may be to say that Mohammed's role authorizes the use of force:So I think it is very shaky ground to consider holy support of violence to be a innovation of Islam."

As far as use for proselytization purposes, I think it is clear from history that it is. Before the West ever dreamt of Crusade (and this was no conversion instrument), Islam enjoyed 400 years of near unopposed conquest. In 100 years, Islam swept from Mecca to The Pyrenees. Martel stopped them in Poitiers-Tours in 732 and keep them out of the Frankish kingdom, but Catholic Spain was no more, the near East and North Africa (to include Augustine's home) were overrun, and Asia Minor threatened. All were forcibly converted or put under the Jizya and given no juridical rights even then. Everywhere it expressed itself, it converted not to a king, but a Prophet. It did not engage in reasoned argument to convert, but overwhelmed through violence or threat of it.

And it would be well to remember here that Christians who have done violence have done so contrary to the teachings of their founder not in fulfillment of it as with Islam.

"Now, do Muslims corner the market on modern day violence? No. Not even close. Think about the last 100 years, for instance. You have the Holocaust, the Romanian death camps, the lynchings of blacks by the KKK (technically a Christian group), abortion clinic bombings, : and gay bashing, just to name a few."

First, not all of these were examples of Christian violence as I'm sure you'll agree. Hell the KKK is not a big fan of the Pope last I checked. Second, the secular state in the 20th century has proven itself quite more capable of mass graves than all religions of history combined. Thirdly, attempting to draw a moral equivalence between the near non-existent numbers of human lives lost in abortion clinic bombings or mass suicide to the substantial number of human lives lost in the name of late 20th century/early 21st century Jihad is simply specious and an argument only the religiously indifferent/hostile would attempt to make.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

Das Ubermime (Continued):

"People are people and no religion is going to change that. Every now and again, one religion or another has a period of decades where they comprise the larger percentage of dickitude, but that doesn't mean that the other religions are inherently that much nicer. People are people. With the above in mind, I do not see any reason to view the quote made by the Byzantine Emperor to be accurate in the slightest. In fact, the only redeeming quality of the quote is that it is in fact a quote. But does that make it appropriate?"

Yes, Islam as a culture must face the facts of ITS past. There is no end to the opponents of Christianity demanding this or that and condemning the hypocrisy of this Pope or that King. This I have little problem with and it should be expected in a secular pluralistic society. Islam is neither. No meaningful dialogue will ever take place until this occurs. Facing the facts of its past it exactly appropriate. Giving Islam a pass, while its more intrepid adherents continue to attack without provocation, reinforcing the illusion of moral superiority to the street, verges on immoral. The freedom to say as one will is a noble right. The freedom to kill innocent people is one that should be denied universally. And should be condemned with minimal regard to the strength of language used.

"What if the Persian Emperor had replied back by saying "The only thing new about Christianity is the deification of a bastard (not intended as profanity) peasant whose desire to martyr himself superceded his sense of self-preservation" and that this quote was used in a speech by a caliph who represented 1 billion people."

Not a good comparison. Firstly, the comment is not an established fact. Secondly many have said such. Thirdly, if a world leader today were to quote such a thing, I fail to see realistically that any Western Christians would resort to bombing Mosques, street protests, denotating IEDs indiscriminately, hijacking 767s and using them as fuel-air explosives, or cut the heads off of people with no culpability in the matter and then post the video on the internet.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

"Would that quote be appropriate? No. It is a horrible thing to say and should be deplored by anyone seeking open dialogue. It is foolish to quote Hitler at a Jewish wedding, and it is foolish to quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor on Islam."

We will disagree here with all but quoting Hitler. I am not indifferent in the matter as history has shown that one culture (Islam v. any other) must be the master of the other or there will be conflict. Quoting a Byzantine emperor who's kingdom in the not too distant future was to become Ottoman after centuries of attack since Manzikert in 1071, is completely appropriate. Pope Benedict is a champion of a defense of the West and believes that Europe must be awakened to a threat it has allowed inside its gates since the advent of the sedation culture since WWII.

A careful look at demographics in Europe may convince one that they are beginning the long slow stare into oblivion, but the clincher that they are in trouble should be who and what are filling demographic gaps internally, coupled with a re-emergent and hostile Islam externally, which historically has not been a good thing. Whether one believes it or not, discounting the threat as mere paranoia is foolish. Believing that Islam will embrace secularism is a dangerous and futile hope as its history shows no precedent for such a thing. Western liberals scream separation of Church and state as if there were even a remote possibility of it being otherwise. Islam, on the other hand, knows no other position but the fusion of the two. Believing in a peaceful co-existence is also a dangerous hope, as with the Prophet in the 620's, he was meek and humble when in the minority, but a lion when he became the majority. These flames are already burning hot, fanning them with strong language is a lot like blowing on a bonfire.

It is only prudent to speak the truth and illuminate the Western masses. I see it as a good thing; How many have heard of Paleologos or Byzantium, for that matter, for the first time this week?

Take care Das Ubermime,

Lepanto

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jonas 7 years, 10 months ago

Lepanto: YOU'RE WRONG! FISH HEAD!!!

/not really, but that was fun to say.

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Sacerdotal 7 years, 10 months ago

Papa needs some new advisors; most inappropriate comments. We need to find areas of common concern, not new divisions. While much of Europe was living in mud huts, our Muslim brothers were living in cities and palaces and, after my church outlawed thought, saving our history, literature and science until we "woke up" during the Renaissance.

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Sacerdotal 7 years, 10 months ago

"On the other hand, Mohamad did lead armies for instance in the battles between Mecca and Medina. I do not know whether Mohamad himself carried a sword. If he did, I also don't know if he used it to injure or kill someone. Nevertheless, he was involved to some extent in battles that took place."

Our Popes led armies too. The mace was invented so the clergy could bash people's heads in; this was considered moral and much better than using a sword, which was used, after all, to pierce Jesus' side. We all have blood on our hands and need to pray for peace...together..........

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 10 months ago

Sacerdotal

"We need to find areas of common concern, not new divisions."

I agree buyt the Islamic extremists DO NOT want to find any areas of common concern. If you are not on their team, you are an infedel and not worth much, so killing is no big deal.

We have been trying to "understand" and not "humiliate" these folks, but they are WAY more touchy about things than need, and from their own side. This make the effect of dialouge with extremists a a foregone conclusion.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

Thank you to the Pope for pointing out that America has nothing to do with how hatefilled radical islam is....We weren't even around in the 14th century....

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lunacydetector 7 years, 10 months ago

could all the violence exhibited in the arab world (killing, bombing, beheading etc.) be a result of the inbreeding in the middle east?

if there is a village of 300 people and half marries their first cousin, you'd think that eventually the family tree will turn into a stick.

here is a world map that shows the inbreeding. overwhelmingly, in muslim nations it is promoted - over 50% marry within their own family.

http://www.consang.net/global_prevalence/globalcolourlarge.jpg

the dueling banjos song comes to mind.

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lunacydetector 7 years, 10 months ago

alqaida in iraq has issued a fahtwa against the Pope.

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

NOOOO Iraq has NOTHING to do with terrorism.....Alqaida has never even BEEN to Iraq.... geez don't you know any thing?

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

And this just in on the religion of "peace and love" (that we really need to just understand) front:

On Friday, a Mogadishu cleric called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill the pontiff for his remarks.

Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin tells the followers of the religion of peace and love:

"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim."

You may recall that some intrepid sons of the prophet in this particular district on sunday took those words to heart and, being unable to afford a plane ticket to Rome to fulfill the explicit wishes of their local Imam, took implicit action and murdered an elderly Italian nun at an Austrian-funded SOS children's hospital in Mogadishu.

Oh BTW, in true manly fashion, they shot her in the back!

Her name was Suor Leonella Sgorbati.

I don't know about the default Islamic apologists here who think a little more understanding is needed, but this doesn't seem an effective argumentative technique to take against someone who has just questioned your religion's relationship to violence.

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SpeedRacer 7 years, 10 months ago

I thought it funny that most of the reactions from the muslim world were that they objected to the portrayal of the followers of Islam as violent, and if the Pope didn't retract that statement they were going to kill him and all westerners.

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gr 7 years, 10 months ago

"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim."

I doubt Mohammed could be offended. Maybe it was someone else who was offended. At least a good excuse to act in whatever way they want.

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craigers 7 years, 10 months ago

SpeedRacer, that was exactly what I thought when I read the reactions from most of the Muslims. What? You think we are violent and inhumane? We will show you... bomb 5 churches, threaten to have more suicided bombings. But evil and inhumane? Nah...

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as_I_live_and_breathe 7 years, 10 months ago

what is an insult to Mohammad and Islam?

well apparently:

working in hospitals for women and children, the west, reporters, showing them your shoe, being christian, the south, being jewish, education, other people making money, the east, internet, tv, newspaper, the truth, electricity, tall buildings, the north, white people, love, running water, smiling, speaking, writing.. but that's all, really.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

And in other news:

"Al Qaida warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world..."

Well, with their harem of Western liberals enabling them, who know no position but finding scandalous statements (gasp!) so as to extract apologies for barbarians, Al Qaida and the associated whack job jihadists must be well please with the success of their information campaign in preparing their battlespace.

Oh yeah, other news: that bearded dingbat in Iran (you remember the one who believes in the Mahdi and wants more than anything else to acquire nuclear means so as to be a player in the ringing in of the era of chaos and destruction necessary for Mahdi's return) encourages more protest against the Pope.

Now granted this is primarily due to the fact that he and his ilk have a seventh grade education and can't comprehend that whole religion and reason thing as lectured by a multiple doctorate.

Did I mention AhmeniJIHAD (the seventh grader above) is the charismatic leader of a nation of third graders?

I'm sure I just don't understand these people!
In my best Kronk voice: RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

More news from the Jeruslam Post:

"Citing the words of the Prophet Muhammad, Muslim religious leaders in the Gaza Strip on Sunday warned Pope Benedict XVI that he must "accept" Islam if he wanted to live in peace."

It would seem that Palaiologos was a relevant and credible source to cite after all! The truth seems an offense to the sons of the Prophet and their enablers in the West.

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Lepanto1571 7 years, 10 months ago

And for some good news, from the covering Muslims who condemn the violence of the their religion's Jihadists; we have found one! And much to the dismay of many on this board, he defends the Pope!

Perhaps a Muslim may serve as an example to Western liberals of the need for truth in matter.

Magdi Allam, a leading Muslim commentator in Italy, has has written a major editorial for an Italian national newspaper, Corriere della Sera, defending the Pope:

Excerpts:

+"The Pope's words, while quoting the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus, about the expansion of Islam through the sword, either at Muhammed's times inside the Arabian Peninsula and after his death outside it (with some exceptions), underline an undeniable historical truth. The Quran itself states it; furthermore, the forced conversion to Islam of the whole Byzantine Empire in the East and South of Mediterranean, and the further expansion northwards in Europe and Eastwards in Asia, demonstrates the point made by the Byzantine Emperor. It is foolish to deny the truth..."

+"In the mid Nineties one of the most prominent scholars in Islamic studies, the Egyptian Mohamed said al-Ashmawi, told me that he did not approve the Arab tribes' military conquest of Christian lands in the Mediterranean and that he would have preferred Islam to expand in peace like it did in South-Eastern Asia. The Pope is threatened because he has said things that every single honest and reasoning Muslim should accept: the historical truth."

+"It is time that both the West and Christianity stop thinking that they are the cause of all that happens, either good or evil, inside Islam and all over the world. The ideology of hate is an ancestral reality inside Islam, since its early beginnings, due to his refusal to recognize and respect the plurality of religious communities which are natural..."

+"This is the tragic truth of the ideology of hate which binds together all Muslims obsessed by anti-Americanism, anti-Westernism and by the prejudicial denial of Israel right to exist. They are able to find many pretexts to fly into a rage, from Israeli occupation to the American war, from the cartoons about Muhammed to the Pope's words. Nevertheless the problem is inside Islam itself, an Islam that extremists turned from a faith in God into an ideology aiming at the imposition of a theocratic and totalitarian power on everyone who is not like them. And I am really scared when I realize that even the so called moderates have given up their minds to enter upon a "holy war" in which they will be the first victims."

The other side speaks (granted, a small voice), but is on target. While condemning the motives and actions of the Jihadists, he also condemns the view of pathological appeasement common to many here on this board.

A brave soul indeed. He may have to seek asylum within the walls of the Vatican after the predictable fury of fatwas start flying calling for his death!

Ironic? Nope.

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davisnin 7 years, 10 months ago

"My wife was mouthing off about me being violent the other day. What a load!! I smacked her with a baseball bat for spouting such lies. Then she had the nerve to turn down the thermostat and turn on ROCK N ROLL music!! What torture! So I cut off her head." -excerpt from "The Mohammed Diaries"

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xenophonschild 7 years, 10 months ago

Death to Islam.

A ribbon of radioactive glass from Morrocco to the farthest reaches of Borneo if they continue their campaign of assault against the West.

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