Archive for Wednesday, October 25, 2006

Preachers draw jeering crowd at KU

Two traveling preachers wearing anti-homosexual T-shirts and preaching anti-homosexual sermons withstood jeers from hundreds of students

October 25, 2006

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Michael Venyah, a traveling minister, shouts messages condemning homosexuals and people who practice other religions while surrounded by hundreds of jeering Kansas University students.  Wearing anti-homosexual t-shirts, Venyah and a colleague made an unannounced stop at KU around 11 a.m. on Wednesday at Wesceo Beach.  Soon after, hundreds of students gathered around and some made placards to attmept to block Venyah.

Michael Venyah, a traveling minister, shouts messages condemning homosexuals and people who practice other religions while surrounded by hundreds of jeering Kansas University students. Wearing anti-homosexual t-shirts, Venyah and a colleague made an unannounced stop at KU around 11 a.m. on Wednesday at Wesceo Beach. Soon after, hundreds of students gathered around and some made placards to attmept to block Venyah.

Two traveling preachers wearing anti-homosexual T-shirts and preaching anti-homosexual sermons withstood jeers from hundreds of students this afternoon on Wescoe Beach at Kansas University.

The gathering started about 11 a.m. when students walking around campus spotted the two men.

Michael Venyah and Chris Lemieux said they travel around the country and often stop on campuses as part of Soul Winners Ministries International.

At Wescoe Beach, Venyah stood up, held a Bible and shouted various messages condemning homosexuals and people who practice other religions telling them to "repent of their sins."

Hundreds of students crowded around the steps to watch and made signs to block Venyah's face from view. At one point, someone threw a condom onto Venyah's shoulder.

A few students held rainbow flags while others shouted to drown out Venyah's message.

"It's really sad. Especially when they don't really listen to the other point of view. I'm glad that there are actually people saying he's wrong," said Chris Thomas, a KU sophomore from Overland Park.

Lemieux said he and his preaching partner try to reach "all non-believers," and that they often face such opposition. The two made an unannounced visit to KU, he said.

"Because that's one of the sins that people are committing on campuses, and that really divides people on whether they are following Jesus Christ or not," Lemieux said of the pair's anti-homosexual message.

At least three KU Public Safety officers monitored the crowd. Capt. Schuyler Bailey said at 12:45 p.m. that no violence had been reported.

Comments

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

"What a mature attitude. I weep for the future."

I weep for our past because of people like you we aren't the best society that we can be--rid of closeminded hypocrites like yourself. Don't give me that "walk on by" crapola, they're still there and even if somebody walks by and does their best to ignore them, they still see the signs and hear the hatred coming from those preachers.

irnmadn88 8 years, 5 months ago

I think there is a place in Topeka for them. Fred would welcome them...

Steve Jacob 8 years, 5 months ago

Aren't we just supposed to treat them like the KKK and just ignore them? TV crews (or newspaper people) will not come if it's just two nuts on a soapbox yelling at nobody.

shockchalk 8 years, 5 months ago

Opinion,

Thank you for a wonderful and enlightening post. We are supposed to share the good news and I hope that Christians will remember to speak the truth in love. We don't "hate" the homosexual but we do believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong in the eyes of Jesus. We are to love one another, not condone sin.

opinion 8 years, 5 months ago

scenebooster,

You are certainly right that "not everyone believes in the Bible...". And if a Christian trying to share the Gospel does not acknowledge that, I doubt their message will be well received. That happens quite often I am sad to say.

I would like for you to think about something though. I am a Christian; I completely believe the Bible; in God; and that without the saving blood of Jesus, I would get what I deserve as a sinner which is hell. This is completely real to me. If you know this about me, and you know that I am sure that without YOU trusting in Christ, YOU are under the wrath of God, what would you think of me if I didn't at least try to tell you about it? If I had a disease, and I found out that you were sure you had a cure for it but didn't tell me, I would not think very highly of you. Granted, this is not often the motive Christians use. They often hold their salvation over others like they are better. This is not what Christ wants us to do. You may not believe what I believe, but because Jesus has told me to share this love, I must.

Scenebooster, I addressed this to you but I am really not trying to personalize it. You just made the comment that opened the door for me.

Snorkel 8 years, 5 months ago

So, uh, Pilgrim. You're here complaining about a double-standard that the "looney left" has about free speech. Let me ask you this - what double-standard?

Can you truly not see the vast gulf of difference between being against an ideology and being against an entire class of human being?

Or maybe you don't want to see the difference?

dlkrm 8 years, 5 months ago

"It's really sad. Especially when they don't really listen to the other point of view. I'm glad that there are actually people saying he's wrong," said Chris Thomas, a KU sophomore from Overland Park.

Uhh, wait a minute. Wasn't it the shouting mob that wasn't listening to the other point of view? Why was the mob so threatened by a view that opposed their own?

SettingTheRecordStraight 8 years, 5 months ago

Snood, We agree on one thing-- so much for free speech on KU's campus!

cellogrl 8 years, 5 months ago

Because they were stating it offensively would be my guess. I agree wtih irnmadn88. Go find your place with Fred and get the hell out of my face!

snood 8 years, 5 months ago

I saw the guys handing out Bibles today in front of the Union, but not these guys. I saw them last year though, and everyone was peacefully watching them, thinking probably the same thing, "what nuts!"

I don't support messages of hate, but so much for free speech on KU's campus!

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

Actually, that comment was for OldEnuf...

Why would they die out, Gr? The odds of every animal within a certain community being gay would be astronomical.

I would think animals are just as humans are. Some are gay, and some are not. As for the nature vs nurture idea, I think nature has more to do with it. This would explain why there may be only one gay child within a family, even when there are several children. All of them were raised the same way.

Although nurture has a lot more to do with how many people are comfortable with being open and honest about being gay. Far too many people, in the quest for being accepted into society, or even accepted within their own family, have pretended to be something they are not.

I personally do not believe that being gay is a choice. Why on earth would someone deliberately choose a way of life that will guarantee they will be ridiculed, harassed, and discriminated against?

But the thing that gets me is how many heterosexual people who are against gays think it's a choice. And it only makes sense to me that if homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality has to be as well. Yet, whenever I ask someone at what age they decided to be heterosexual, no one ever has any comment.

I'm heterosexual, and I don't recall deciding to be so. Do you?

saudipoo 8 years, 5 months ago

Fred wouldn't accept them, they are black.

Laura Watkins 8 years, 5 months ago

personally i think that this is more of a free speech and reactions issue and less of a "they are right or wrong in their opinions about homosexuality" issue. hate speech may be annoying, hurtful or fun (depending on how you personally view it), but hate speech is legal as long as you are not causing people to commit a crime (i.e. saying "kill all the gays; here's how!").

FROM ACLU'S WEB SITE: The U.S. Supreme Court did rule in 1942, in a case called Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, that intimidating speech directed at a specific individual in a face-to-face confrontation amounts to "fighting words," and that the person engaging in such speech can be punished if "by their very utterance [the words] inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace." Say, a white student stops a black student on campus and utters a racial slur. In that one-on-one confrontation, which could easily come to blows, the offending student could be disciplined under the "fighting words" doctrine for racial harassment.

Over the past 50 years, however, the Court hasn't found the "fighting words" doctrine applicable in any of the hate speech cases that have come before it, since the incidents involved didn't meet the narrow criteria stated above."

i think that some of the students reacted appropriately, i.e. holding up a rainbow flag. squirting ketchup on a person's shirt because you disagree with their opinions is not the way to deal with it. i may completely disagree with everything they said about...well...everything, but that's my opinion. they are entitled to preach whatever they want, just as we are entitled to not listen.

Bubarubu 8 years, 5 months ago

"Yes, and look at who the protestors were. Certainly not conservatives."

Not relevant to the argument. You asked about liberal speakers getting heckled, I provided examples. Thanks for not responding. Really helps with dialogue.

"Look again. They basically played matador. You just couldn't hear them shout "Ole" as they stepped aside."

They separated the two groups who were getting physical over the banner then closed the curtain. What would you have them do, pull out billy clubs? Violence as a response to nonviolent expression?

All of that being said, you've still not responded to the overwhelming bulk of that post. When you'd like to engage in substantive discussion, let me know. I'm still waiting.

Nate Poell 8 years, 5 months ago

"... so much for free speech on KU's campus!"

Oh indeed. They were not assaulted. The fact that there was a countervailing student crowd didn't mean that they were unable to air their views. Chances are if they had contacted administration officials, they would have had the opportunity to air their views in a more controlled venue, but they decided to just wing it and wound up failing miserably. Couldn't have happened to two more deserving fellows.

BOE 8 years, 5 months ago

"Anti-Shellfish Preachers anger crowd at Red Lobster, get pelted with mostly eaten crab legs...

..film at eleven

ksmoderate 8 years, 5 months ago

Yes, poor them. C'mon everybody: AAAWWWW.

Homophobes.

blackbird13 8 years, 5 months ago

Rock Chalk Jayhawks!

Yes, of course, the preachers had a right to be there and to state their position, but it makes me quite proud that KU students also stated theirs.

feeble 8 years, 5 months ago

SettingTheRecordStraight:

Free speach means you get to say your message, doesn't mean you get to compel people to listen. Don't want to be heckled when saying your bit? Choose a better venue.

BrianR 8 years, 5 months ago

They got exactly the response they were expecting to get. Unless they're complete idiots, which I doubt, they knew this is exactly what would happen.

Now they can say they've been persecuted by whomever they decide the jeering crowd represents to them.

KSChick1 8 years, 5 months ago

a student came in and told me about the other student's protesting against the preachers

the students held up signs to counter what the preachers were saying and one of the signs said, "I had chili for lunch"

now that is freaking hilarious and appropo of nothing

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

A lot of people, myself included, believe that homosexuality is morally wrong and scientifically unnatural. A LOT of people, and we are not all bigots. Some, like Fred, are hatemongers who are not standing up for a moral position as much as they are simply embracing hate. I do not hate anyone for being in a gay lifestyle, but I will not condone their choices either.

This really isn't news. This has been happening every year on Wescoe Beach for as long as there has been a Wescoe Beach. The LJW is just trying to get us riled up, and we are falling for it.

manhattanite 8 years, 5 months ago

"Why is it that some of the sins outlined in Leviticus are ignored (shellfish, polycotton, etc.), but homosexuality is a clarion call for conservative Christians?"

They are not ignored, but you have to take the Bible as a whole, not just pick out certain parts. The book of Hebrews sets out the New Covenant vs. the Old Covenant to some extent, though it can also be found in other books in the NT. There are specific differences. In the Old Covenant, God's chosen people were a political ethnic entity. In the New Covenant, they are all those who have His law written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34). To be consistent, we must also not ignore clear teachings of the New Testament. Mark 7:19, for example: "For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")" The food laws given to the civil / ethnic Israel are repealed in the New Testament. Though some will disagree with this, a common way of understanding this is by viewing the laws of the OT in 3 categories: Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral. Civil laws were those related specifically to ethnic Isreal and are no longer in force now that the New Covenant is not with any specific ethnic or civil group. The ceremonial laws mainly had to do with the temple and sacrifices. But Christ came as the final sacrifice and thus did away with all of these. Their purpose was to point to His coming. So after He came, their purpose had been fulfilled. This leaves the moral law, which is summed up in the great commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength." This has never and will never be repealed. The sin of homosexuality would fall under the moral law.. furthermore, it is called a sin in the NT as well as the OT. There is really no Biblical case to be made for this sin to be a part of the civil or ceremonial law or for it to no longer be considered a sin.

Romans is very clear on this, as is 1 Corinthians 6. What was the sin of Sodom? (Hint: Why was it called "Sodom"?)

But you are right that it is wrong to just single out one sin and rant on it only. However, most people are not openly promoting sins like murder or rape. What would be the point of going around telling people that murder is wrong? I don't know what these preachers were saying and so I won't defend them or their method. But a person must see and be broken over their sin in order to see the need for a Savior from that sin. This cannot happen if sin is not at least dealt with.

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

I personally don't think any religious groups should be allowed to just show up on campus and start preaching. Students are paying to get an education, not put up with any religious fanatic that decides they want to preach on campus (especially when they are just preaching hate).

Many say these people are harmless, but when I was student at KU my friends and I were harassed many times by religious groups. All we wanted to do was go to class, but instead we would be followed, being told of our sins and how we were doomed to hell. I paid to have access to that campus, so why should these folks from out of town be allowed to just show up to start trouble? Do we want religious groups on campus everyday preaching hate?

I'm at least glad that the crowd made it clear that they were not welcome. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it is wrong for these people to show up and push it down everyone's throats. If they were students, had gotten permission to be there, etc... It would be more tolerable. There has to be a limit and regulations to non-student, non-campus groups making the campus into their own personal pulpit.

snood 8 years, 5 months ago

Whether it's these guys, the hari krishnas, peta people handing out pamphlets with gruesome photos of dismembered animals, students giving "religious conversion surveys," mentally disabled people handing out Hawk Sheets, or guys giving you fliers about the next big "dance party" at liquid there's bound to be someone trying to sell you their message that pisses you off during your time at KU!

Oh, and there is a such thing as a heckler's veto. Not that I support these guys or anything.

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf - you are entitles to your opinion about what YOU believe is morally wrong, but that doesn't mean that those who don't think as you should be harassed about our life choices.

You are incorrect about it being scientifically unnatural.

One particular book is helpful in this case. Bruce Bagemihl's "Biological Exuberance," published in 1999, documents homosexual behavior in more than 450 animal species. The list includes grizzly bears, gorillas, flamingos, owls and even several species of salmon.

"The world is, indeed, teeming with homosexual, bisexual and transgendered creatures of every stripe and feather," Bagemihl writes in the first page of his book. "From the Southeastern Blueberry Bee of the United States to more than 130 different bird species worldwide, the 'birds and the bees,' literally, are queer."

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp

ohawkfan 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm not proud of the students that stated theirs, most of them were acting very immature, and shouting senseless things, even though I admit it was funny. The best course of action would be to just ignore the crazy man, not feed him the attention he craves.

Kmat, I understand where you are coming from in some instances, but the hateful preachers were being harrassed by the students more than the other way around in this case. They threw eggs, condoms, and shoved signs in his face for the couple hours I witnessed. If you didn't want to listen to it, just move along.

SettingTheRecordStraight 8 years, 5 months ago

Why is it always ministers, members of the Minutemen, or conservative who always get SHOUTED DOWN!! !! !! Those who disagree with a point of view do not have the right to yell, shout, belittle, block or throw condoms at those with whom they disagree.

Lucky713 8 years, 5 months ago

Hee Hee. My roomate took the "I Ate Chili For Lunch" sign...

Bubarubu 8 years, 5 months ago

When you choose to present your message in a public place, then you risk a negative reaction that overwhelms the message. These guys had the right to speak on Wescoe Beach, certainly the students who disagreed had the right to respond. Is throwing condoms polite? Not really. Does that make it an illegitimate response? Nope. The notion that these two guys should have access to campus to preach their message that intentionally alienates and demonizes people but students on campus who disagree should have to politely wait to write letters to the Kansan or the Journal-World is absurd. When you enter the public sphere, you risk getting rejected by the public.

don_burgess 8 years, 5 months ago





This article raises many important questions ....

Where do these two guys stay when they are traveling around the country?

Do they stop at a hotel during their travels? Do they get a double room or save costs by sharing a single? Do they sleep in a motor home? Do they camp in the woods and share in the beauty of nature?

What do they do to pass the time during the long, hard hours being on the road?

Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking about these two "traveling preachers"?

Has anyone seen Brokeback Mountain?

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"that doesn't mean that those who don't think as you should be harassed about our life choices"

Where did I say they should be harrassed? You demostrate the intolerance of the left (which is identical to the intolerance of the right) when you lump all of us in the same boat as Fred. Thanks a lot.

I don't think that gays should be harrassed any more than an adulterous man should be.

I don't think gays should be kept from employment in our schools any more than a fornicator should be.

If we persecute people based on their morality, then who will be left to run the prisons? No one is "good" but God alone; so as a person who has been known to sin (which is also not morally correct or natural), I'd rather we not start burning gays at the stake again. I probably couldn't stand the heat when my turn came.

But, saying "do not bash gays" is NOT the same as saying "homosexuality is OK".

snood 8 years, 5 months ago

Oh yeah I forgot the magazine salespeople. They're the worst...

schwutev 8 years, 5 months ago

just for the record-i have the "i ate chili for lunch" sign in my dorm right now, it was left on wescoe beach...

the other side says "i am an idiot"

KSguyinTX 8 years, 5 months ago

What we believe God tells us through the Bible, yes.

don_burgess 8 years, 5 months ago

Dog = sometimes gay Dog = God backwards

then dogs and god are sometimes gay.

boomersooner4ever 8 years, 5 months ago

I believe in free speech and Im glad they were able to speak what was on thier minds :) This is America the beautiful right? I of course do not agree with thier views but at least I know I can say what I want. Now everyone back to your lives.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 5 months ago

"Apes? Jeez, Eride."

I am sorry but I thought most of the posts in this thread were of a joking nature, how could I have known some of you people were ACTUALLY being serious.

These guys came up on campus stood on one of the busiest places on campus and started preaching hate and intolerance. They have a right to express their opinion and we don't have a right to express ours...?

SettingTheRecordStraight 8 years, 5 months ago

I wasn't there, but to say that these guys, no matter how repugnant their message was, were afforded free speech seems like a joke.

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

Snood - you sum it up very well. When attending KU, why should the students have to put up with every group trying to get at them? I guess I consider KU to be an institute of higher learning, not a free-for-all for every freak that wants to make their point. That's why I say that anyone not affiliated with the university that wants to put on a show should have to get permission from the university. KU had to have officers present to make sure nothing got out of control. That means KU had to waste money and time to guard these preachers. Why should the university's resources have to be used in this way instead of being used to benefit the students?

snood 8 years, 5 months ago

Well, to sell stuff technically they're supposed to. But, they'll argue it takes from the spirit of the college environment. And a lot of those people (like the peta people) are with student organizations, plus it would be wrong to deny student groups the opportunity to market their causes.

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf - I didn't say you harassed me, I said that I WAS harrassed on campus by religious groups that decided they should follow around anyone they thought was sinning. Why should anyone be harassed because of a difference of belief? That's not Christian!!!!!

You also need to remember that you are living in a country where some of us aren't "believers". Just as you have freedom of religion, I am entitled to have freedom from your religion as well.

Also remember that you may believe homosexuality isn't OK, but many of us DO believe it is ok. Try telling my cousin who is a fighter pilot in the Air Force that his gay lifestyle is wrong. It's sad he has to hide it to continue to serve our country (especially when he's been to war and many that stand against him because of his sexuality have just stuck a frickin yellow ribbon on the back of the SUV while stating how homosexuals are bad).

And, no comments on the homosexual animal kingdom??????????

Sarah Rahija 8 years, 5 months ago

I just want to say that I'm sorry ...

sorry for the actions of these men that said they were acting in the name of Jesus ...

sorry for the hate that is felt and even expected from "religious" groups ...

sorry for the hurt that is caused by people in God's name.

That is not what life is about. Christ loved people. He spent time with people of all walks of life, and I think, that the only time he yelled at people, it was the "religious fanatics". Isn't it interesting, that the people who are screaming about sin, are pushing people away with a message of hate, not love. Jesus said, "Come, follow me, ALL ..." The people who claim to love and follow Him say, "Change your ways or you're going to hell! You aren't good enough the way you are." Christ didn't ask for the perfect, He asked for people to come along with Him, on a journey, not an argument or debate.

I want to apologize, on behalf of all those who have hurt others with actions, words, and lack of action. We are the ones who should repent, and ask forgiveness from God and from those who are hurting. I'm sorry.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

Jesus never specifically mentioned homosexuality. His apostles did, and the Law of Moses did.

Before you all say "Jesus didn't say it, so it doesn't matter", keep in mind that he also didn't say anything about rape or a host of other obvious no-nos. He only preached for 3 years, and paper was really expensive...

kujeeper 8 years, 5 months ago

I say we throw the haters and the gays in a cage and let them duke it out.

weterica 8 years, 5 months ago

"Why is it always ministers, members of the Minutemen, or conservative who always get SHOUTED DOWN!! !! !! Those who disagree with a point of view do not have the right to yell, shout, belittle, block or throw condoms at those with whom they disagree." -Settingtherecordstraight

I agree with Settingtherecordgstraight! It's just so terrible out there for conservatives. Conservatives have no platform to speak, and when they do speak they are always shouted down! You never hear anything conservatives have to say.

Rest easy, Settingtherecord, someday we will take down the liberal-commie-fascist-Islamic-atheist-secular armies of intolerance and Kansas will be a conservative state; and, maybe just maybe, we'll get some political power nationally--maybe even a president who claims he was selected by God himself, and who God speaks through. That'd be so awesome! Finally conservatives would have a voice.

Then maybe the conservative position will get heard. Especially the awesome parts like how much God hates certain people. That stuff is totally rad!

(Although, I for one, as a conservative, hope that we can still play the victim card even after our glorious victory, because it really energizes our base.)

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"And, no comments on the homosexual animal kingdom?"

Why comment? Publishing a book gives no validity to the argument. You can find a book that "proves" about any position out there.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

" Jesus said, "Come, follow me, ALL ..." The people who claim to love and follow Him say, "Change your ways or you're going to hell! You aren't good enough the way you are." Christ didn't ask for the perfect, He asked for people to come along with Him, on a journey, not an argument or debate."

You can find plenty of scripture, even words of Jesus, that say that repentance is a part of salvation. Do not shy away from the truth. Preaching repentance is not the same as abusive language. As you stated, Jesus asked us to join him on a journey; but that is a journey that always begins with repentance (not to be confused with "perfection").

Bradley Kemp 8 years, 5 months ago

"A lot of people, myself included, believe that homosexuality is morally wrong and scientifically unnatural."

It's true that there's no shortage of such people. They're usually ignorant, sometimes hateful, but always -- always -- wrong.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"Bring back Jed and Cindy!"

Now those people has LUNGS. That's some real, hard-core-in-your-face-agree-with-me-or-burn-in-hell preaching. Old school. The memories...

epab 8 years, 5 months ago

OldEnuf2BYurDad: "..believe that homosexuality is morally wrong and scientifically unnatural"

Just a few issues, morals are generally determined by the individual, not the public that would be popular 'opinion'. Though this opinion is seen as quite archaic by our supposedly more open-thought American lifestyle. Moral's defined: sanctioned by or operative on ONE'S conscience or ethical judgment. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=morally

Regarding the scientifically unnatural; references to gay acts have been documented for centuries in many cultures. Also in the most innocent representitive of life, many animals have performed acts of homosexuality. Lastly in scientific studies there is evidence that might one day lead to proof of an actual homosexual gene.

http://rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/Science3.html
<--animals link(you can google gay animals for pictures too!)

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp
<-------link with info on science of homosexuality

    While your allowed to your opinion (I myself neither support, nor condemn gays), statements like the previous bother me because of the lack of context, and research

SettingTheRecordStraight 8 years, 5 months ago

"Don't want to be heckled when saying your bit? Choose a better venue." -Feeble

You've given up then, Feeble? KU is off limits to those who expect not to be heckled when discussing a controversial subject?

don_burgess 8 years, 5 months ago










I'm gay. I'm very very very very very very gay. So is Mr Ramirez. So are bears. All bears. Salamaders, too. We are all gay. If I was any more gay, I would be on fire.

People who eat chilli are very gay also.

Soul Winners Ministries International is a gay organization filled with gay members. It is very possible christ was gay.

Owls arent gay but they condone gay acts.

KU is a gay university. - especially the football players and their unusually large gay head coach.

OldEnuf2Byurdad is gay in limitless proportion. People who throw condoms are definetly gay.

Godot 8 years, 5 months ago

"morals are generally determined by the individual, not the public "

You must have learned that in public school.

It is, of course, wrong.

KSguyinTX 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm not saying it was right for the preachers to "yell" at anyone. Usually the preachers that go out and do "street" evangelism are yelling over the crowd because the crowd is talking or yelling to try to overpower the preacher. I wasn't at this one so I can't say that's the case here.

I do find it interesting though, that a largely liberal city and campus that allows the homosexuals to march down main street, to have clubs on campus and have all the freedom that anyone else has in town, get's so riled up that someone would stand up for their own beliefs and rights when that's what they want for themselves. If the students didn't like the message the preachers were bringing across, why didn't they just keep on walking? They didn't have to agree with what they said. Just like those of us that are Christ followers don't have to agree with what homosexuals believe. Both have the right to ignore the other.

We are called to bring God's message to the multitudes, whether it's as a missionary to China, India, Africa, or whether it's right here in America. These men are doing what they believe God has called them to do, and I honor them for that.

Would they have gotten any attention if they would have just sat there and held their Bibles and not said anything? No. Then they wouldn't have been able to reach out to the campus like they believe God has told them to do. It requires talking to people, and telling what the Bible says. These guys didn't wake up one day and say, "Hey I think I hate gays so I'm going to go around and tell them they are going to hell." They did their research in God's word, read what the Bible says about homosexuality and felt God's leading to go across America and tell people what God says about homosexuality.

It's not a matter of what people say, but what God says.

Bradley Kemp 8 years, 5 months ago

"Ok, prove it."

Is homosexuality unnatural? 1. It exists in both humans and other animals. 2. In humans, it is known to have existed at a fairly stable, persistent rate throughout history and across cultures. Everything about every human is the result of either genetic or cultural programming, or programming that combines the two. Any human attribute that is universal across cultures must be largely genetic (for example, that we speak languages, have arms instead of wings, have a certain persistent tendency toward homosexuality.) 3. The idea that any behavior that does not lead to reproduction is maladaptive in evolutionary terms is often trotted out as evidence that homosexuality is not normal, but it relies on the completely mistaken idea that individuals evolve. In fact, populations, not individuals, evolve, and there are plenty of ways to see a certain rate of homosexuality as adaptive for populations.

Is homosexuality immoral? 1. If you base your argument on the claim that because something is unnatural it is immoral, you're on shaky ground. Even if homosexuality WERE unnatural, that wouldn't say anything at all about whether it is immoral. 2. If you base your argument on some received notion of morality (as OldEnuf has pointed out, you "can find a book that 'proves' about any position out there," including the Bible), then it isn't subject to argument and thus can't be disproved.

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

kmat: "You are incorrect about it being scientifically unnatural."

OldEnuf didn't say it didn't happen in the natural world, but that it was unnatural. It would be my guess that animals are not homosexual at all, but like some dogs, want to poke it wherever it fits. It has nothing to do with a preference of gender, but a stimulation of body parts.

If you believe in evolution (whatever angle you approach it), if animals are truly homosexual, they would either die out or be at a very low frequency in just a few generations. There is no evolutionary advantage to being homosexual. Now, you can whine about birds or other animals taking care of family, but they only do it so they are able to mate at a later date.

Think through this a little. Organisms don't reproduce, they don't leave offspring, their preferences die out along with them.

============

What if it was two homosexuals going around campus saying, 'weez are normal human beans and weez got moe rights than anyone else'. What if there was a large crowd trying to drown them out. Then there would be lot's of people on the forum accusing the crowd of being homophobes.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"His apostles did, right? Specifically in Leviticus, right?"

If you are going to debate Biblical principles, read a Bible first. Leviticus was written thousands of years before there were any apostles.

Bradley Kemp 8 years, 5 months ago

"If you believe in evolution (whatever angle you approach it), if animals are truly homosexual, they would either die out or be at a very low frequency in just a few generations. There is no evolutionary advantage to being homosexual. ... Think through this a little. Organisms don't reproduce, they don't leave offspring, their preferences die out along with them."

What if they were genetically programmed to have a certain tendency toward homosexuality? As we seem to be, along with a stronger tendency toward heterosexuality? You would expect that programming to express itself in a certain minority of the population being homosexual, and that expression would persist as long as the population containing the programming persisted.

shockchalk 8 years, 5 months ago

This is the great thing about Lawrence. We are always SO tolerant. That is, unless you write or say anything that disagree's with the liberal left. Everyone has a right to state their opinion. Well, unless that opinion is conservative at all and then you are just a hate-mongering homophobe right???

don_burgess 8 years, 5 months ago

That passage is correct, Mr Ramirez. I see you are well versed.

I also enjoy Paul: 13:05
"If thoust are not the gayest shepherd in the flock, thoust lacks love of the lord. "

And, of course Matthew 6:15

"and thus the lord blessed him with fabulous garments and the strength to be gay in the eyes of the animal kindom."

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

I gotta go. If I don't get dinner on the table, my conservative wife is going to BEAT me.

Enjoy your debate.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

Just for the record: I've seen preachers on Wescoe Beach, soft spoken and quiet, who didn't yell and hate... but they still got heckled. Therein lies the hypocricy. People yell because they don't want it shoved down their throats? Even when it's being done in a respectful tone, they get heckled. Do not justify the hecklers.

epab 8 years, 5 months ago

gr: "It would be my guess that animals are not homosexual at all, but like some dogs, want to poke it wherever it fits. It has nothing to do with a preference of gender, but a stimulation of body parts".

Not a bad point but even that has been rebuked by our planets most gay-accepting species 'the penquin'

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL

and much to the embarrasment to religious establishments. Even attempts at reverting penquins from gay to straight have failed (though whether the fear/word of "god" was invoked at them is unknown). http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1275591.html

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

gr - you are sooooo ridiculous I have to laugh.

It happens in the natural world, but it's unnatural. What??????

You need to think this through a little!!! I do believe in science and evolution. The reason that species still exist, even though members of the species are homosexual, is because not EVERY member of the species is homosexual. I can't believe I am even having to point this out!

And, if two homosexuals were going around campus stating that they have more rights than anyone else and that only homosexuals are normal, then I would treat them the same as these freak ministers that came here to trash gay people. And it is quite the grown up thing for you to switch to idiotic language when referencing gay people speaking.

Bradley Kemp 8 years, 5 months ago

"That would explain your narrow-minded intolerant post."

I'm perfectly tolerant of people who are wrong. I haven't called OldEnuf -- or anyone else -- any unpleasant names, or suggested that they stop offering their opinions up.

I don't think you're intolerant or narrow-minded for disagreeing with me, and I would hope you wouldn't think the same of me for disagreeing with you.

Sarah Rahija 8 years, 5 months ago

I don't want to debate with anyone, I guess I just feel that it is not the responsibility of people to condemn others. As people, we are responsible for our own actions/thoughts, and I feel we will be held accountable for those at some point.

Jesus did ask his followers to repent, but I don't think he stood on street corners and yelled at passersby to repent of their sins. He built relationships with people, earned their trust, and through those relationships, the people asked questions that he answered. Many (mostly religious leaders) tried to trap him with "sticky" questions, but he always used God's word (IN context) to answer and teach. He confronted the woman at the well, but didn't shout out her deeds in front of the whole town, or chase her down the street waving his fists and yelling at her. He asked for a drink of water, and visited with her. He didn't shun her or make her feel unworthy, even though, culturally, he didn't owe her any acknowledgement. He saw she was hurting, and offered a different way of life.

Again, I'm not trying to argue or avoid truth, just a different point of view, which is mine, human, and quite possibly flawed.

Bradley Kemp 8 years, 5 months ago

"It would be my guess that animals are not homosexual at all, but like some dogs, want to poke it wherever it fits. It has nothing to do with a preference of gender, but a stimulation of body parts."

If that's what you think, then you must conclude that animals aren't heterosexual at all, either.

KSguyinTX 8 years, 5 months ago

Jesus also told his Disciple to go out and preach the good news(His word/the Bible) to ALL nations.

ohawkfan 8 years, 5 months ago

I still think people are going off the important point that the article addresses. Should people we allowed to throw eggs and condoms at people who are attempting to preach to people (however wrong or offensive they may be)? Clearly both sides of the issue have the right to freedom of speech, but the signs and hotdog even at times, seemed a bit overboard.

shockchalk 8 years, 5 months ago

Souki, but wrong, always--always--wrong.

Then you must conclude that you are right--always--right.

That would explain your narrow-minded intolerant post.

jayhawktownie 8 years, 5 months ago

between this and wal-mart, today might be the most fired up day in ljworld.com history.

i've got one thing to say to the two preachers and all of you gay-bashers.

karma's a bitch.

BOE 8 years, 5 months ago

by ohawkfan October 25, 2006 at 4:37 p.m

" Should people be allowed to throw eggs and condoms at people who are attempting to preach to people (however wrong or offensive they may be)? "

===

Absolutely not.

epab 8 years, 5 months ago

I dont trust Jesus anyways since he was just an overly talkative zombie.

Zombie n 1: a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zombie

So does this make Romero's cinema an alternative to the bible since it deals with interpretations of scripture? Or should i just go on believing that the 5 dollar bill I found in my easter eggs as a kid, are signs from god.

shockchalk 8 years, 5 months ago

Okay Souki, you are right that we should all be able to disagree and share our opinions. My only problem is you said you haven't called anyone any unpleasant names, but in your post you quote someone and then say how ignorant and sometimes hateful these people can be. I do think you should continue to post and I apreciate your opinion.

Bubarubu 8 years, 5 months ago

Incidentally, I've seen Jed Smock (another example of the college preacher) on a number of occasions on a number of different campuses. I've seen him yell and holler and scream and call women whores and call homosexuals sinners. When he did that, he got shouted down. I've also seen him (on Wescoe Beach, as it happens) sit down and discuss his views with anyone who would listen. When he did that, a dozen students were sitting around listening to him. Were they buying into what he had to say? Based on what I saw, no. Were they shouting him down or interfering with his message? Definitely not. The presentation does matter.

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

Wow.... captive penguins - how natural is that? And how many offspring did these penguins raise which were homosexual?

======

kmat,

Maybe I should have used the word, "normal".

As far as the language goes, isn't that what you and others thought these two were doing?

"You need to think this through a little!!! I do believe in science and evolution. The reason that species still exist, even though members of the species are homosexual, is because not EVERY member of the species is homosexual. I can't believe I am even having to point this out!"

I didn't say the reason the "species" still exist, but confronting whether there is a reason "homsexuals" of the species still exist.

Unless you are saying it doesn't have to do with genetics. Perhaps, choice?

Then, I would agree with you. Animals choose, people choose. Animals will kill others of their own kind because they detect a weakness in them. Whould you suggest animal behavior be used as a guideline for people's behavior.

========

Souki, I can only conclude you are being difficult. The context was speaking of homosexual animals. They don't leave offspring. If it's genetics, they would cease to exist. Therefore, my comment. Heterosexuals do produce offspring. Except for those who have genetic problems and they die out, too.

feeble 8 years, 5 months ago

"Don't want to be heckled when saying your bit? Choose a better venue." -Feeble

You've given up then, Feeble? KU is off limits to those who expect not to be heckled when discussing a controversial subject?

===========================================

A better venue could be something as simple as an interfaith panel or discussion, reserved through a student sponser in one of the many, many rooms or auditoriums on campus.

Preaching on Wescoe isn't about the message your selling, it's about the attention you are getting.

ohawkfan 8 years, 5 months ago

What next? Can we have multiple spouses? That certainly isn't "wrong" to some people. Slippery slope my friend!

kmat 8 years, 5 months ago

gr - do a google search and educate yourself. Yes, these penguins were captive. There are hundreds of species of animals that have been studied having homosexual relations in the wild.

You are a very narrow minded individual.

If you yourself were gay, or were close to someone who was, you would know and understand that it is not a choice (unless you want to live a fake life so you can be accepted by homophobes like yourself). My cousin didn't chose to be gay, my best friend didn't chose to be gay. Now bi-sexual, that's a choice (and a very fun choice).

monheim 8 years, 5 months ago

I stopped and observed this whole thing for probably a total of 45 minutes between classes, just because I found it fascinating. I didn't see anyone lay a finger on these men or threaten them or anything. Sure, people let them know what they thought, and there were people yelling negative things at them, but when you show up at a college campus intentionally trying to get a reaction out of people with an intensely negative message, people are going to yell at you. This kind of thing evokes strong emotions in people and that's exactly what happened.

Some in the crowd chose to yell at the preacher and call him an idiot, some resorted to actually trying to make a concerted effort to counter his logic and point out more positive Bible verses to him. As "rude" as they may have been...the people yelling back at him are just as entitled to free speech as he is. I felt like he and his companion were safe and were allowed to express whatever they wanted.

And besides...let's face it. I'm sure that the EXACT reason they were here was to get this kind of reaction out of us. There's no way they're going to reach anyone preaching with such hateful and negative language. They must have known that they'd get a reaction like this on a college campus. I mean, come on, the other guy was filming the whole thing! They were probably here so they could get some clips of guys kissing each other and being hateful back at them so that they can make a little video showing what they're "fighting against".

The only way to handle people with views like this is to let them have their free speech (and don't forget how lucky we are to have it!), and then IGNORE them! That's right...speech doesn't work when no one is around to hear it. Well...yes, I know I know--easier said than done, but it's the only way you can keep them from accomplishing their goals. They want attention...if you disagree with them, deny them that attention.

And as far as poor wittle conservatives getting "shouted down" on KU's campus...well, it's a liberal campus. If people disagree with you they're going to let you know--that's usually just how it works. I'm sure it goes both ways. Can you honestly say that someone preaching an anti-war message or an anti-bush message on an uber-conservative college campus might not receive the same treatment? We're all equally capable of yelling nasty things at each other--conservative or liberal. Oh, and something else I just realized...I like how whoever made the comment about conservatives being shouted down on liberal campuses made the logical leap that anti-gay = conservative all on their own before anyone else had said it.

If you ask me, the line would have been crossed if either of these men had been attacked physically or threatened, but that didn't happen. I'd also like to point out that the people up there with the signs, making out in front of him and what not were probably just as eager for attention as he was...

ranger73 8 years, 5 months ago

BOE- right to bear arms?

Mr. Ramirez- You are all over it today! LMAO!!!

MyName 8 years, 5 months ago

" Should people be allowed to throw eggs and condoms at people who are attempting to preach to people (however wrong or offensive they may be)? "

Certainly not! They must pick one or the other! It's way too greedy to be the person that throws both! Maybe if they find an egg flavored condom to throw, then they can throw two of them, but still, it should either be eggs OR condoms, not eggs AND condoms

don_burgess 8 years, 5 months ago

" Hey Jesus, remember that one time when you stood on the corner and yelled at those gays??!!!!

Yeah, dude, i was totally wasted!


Jesus? Wasted? Yelling at gays to repent? Nice. Very nice.

I'd be careful, Mr Ramirez. Dont forget:

Psalms 6:08

"He who maketh fun of the drunken lord heckling homos shall forever be cast down to hades."

Bone777 8 years, 5 months ago

Don_Burgess- now that was funny.

Mr. Ramirez - don't forget also

Psalms 6:28

"He who imbides in alcohol and lays down with RealDoll, will smell of booze and plastic at the gates of hell."

Bone777 8 years, 5 months ago

ShockerWildercat - I'm not sure what you're talking about. Could you be a little more descriptive/graphic........ SICKO

Bubarubu 8 years, 5 months ago

If Dawkins had chosen to speak on Wescoe Beach in an unscheduled, unstructured appearance, it would be a different story. If these two preachers had chosen to appear as a programmed event on campus, then this sort of response would be wildly out of place. Not comparable situations, but don't worry, everyone gets three strikes.

PS Goose-Goose. Gander-Gander.

youngitized 8 years, 5 months ago

I think they are missing the true meaning of Christianity. That kind of sounds like something Fred would do.

Godot 8 years, 5 months ago

"If Dawkins had chosen to speak on Wescoe Beach in an unscheduled, unstructured appearance, it would be a different story. If these two preachers had chosen to appear as a programmed event on campus, then this sort of response would be wildly out of place."

These two preachers would never have been given a sanctioned venue at KU,even if they had asked, unlike Dawkins, who was invited, and paid by KU, to present his views.

These guys are out of their league, but the response to their message, the violence, the shouting, the effort to drown out their speech, the battery (throwing the condom was battery), is so gutter, so disgusting, so disdaining of the tradition of respect for free speech at KU, that I fear for the future of freedom at KU if this behavior goes unpunished.

epab 8 years, 5 months ago

Either way both sides are representitive of free speech (aside from condom throwing). Maybe it's their respect for free speech that enabled the students to act as they did, when once upon a time blashemy was severly punished. Anyways the 2 gay bashers got the students attention, and the kids responded, albeit immaturely. Sounds like politics to me. Does no-one believe in the middle ground anymore..

JayCat_67 8 years, 5 months ago

Hmmm... If I read the article right, those of us who don't necessarily agree with the gay lifestyle, but aren't doing our part to stamp it out once and for all are also doomed to a permanent state of well done-ness. I suppose even the most rabidly anti-gay Jewish and Muslim folks are also SOL since they aren't following the "right religion".

Of course, when it comes to getting your message out without being heckled, I couldn't agree more. I mean really... How the heck are Phred and his inbred little mob supposed to be heard over those obnoxious motorcycle engines. And, I'm sure those phine pholks spent a good long time working on those picket signs. It's such a shame to hide them behind an American flag. Honestly, if you've lost someone in the war, just bury them and ignore those protesters. They'll go away.

sarcasmeter- DING DING DING DING DING!

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

If you're referring to the word "sodomy", that probably came from relatively modern culture, and was used by men to describe homosexual behavior, not God.

The problem with Sodom was not merely homosexuality. Infidelity, gluttony, deceit, worship of false idols...they also come to mind.

Godot 8 years, 5 months ago

Will you have the same viewpoint when the person on Wescoe Beach is denouncing all who do not accept the strict sharia of Islam? Will you dare to throw a condom on his or her shoulder?

Emily Hadley 8 years, 5 months ago

DID ANYONE NOTICE HIS SHIRT?

The bible verses on his (quite flamboyant) T-shirt equate homosexuals with thieves, swindlers, and "revilers".

The definition of revile is "To attack with harsh, often insulting language. Syn: scold."

That means that what these guys are doing is actually putting them in the same unrighteous class as, among others, the homos they are so freaked out about. Sweet.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

sublime 8 years, 5 months ago

Homosexuality is a sin.I don't believe it should be the basis of a sermon.I think the message should have been repentance.There are many sins not just the sin of being gay.I'm not down with Fred Phelps.His message is one of hate.God does not call us to hate our brother.The bible states that if you hate, it's the same as murder,and you will not enter heaven.We all need Jesus in our lives.It's never to late to give your heart to Jesus.We are all Gods children.All he wants is for us to give ourselves to him.God has blessed my life in so many ways.When my short time on this earth is up, I will spend my eternity with my heavenly father.We will all die .Where will you spend your eternity????????Think Im a Jesus freak? You bet I am.I love Jesus.Guess what, Jesus loves you too.He is waiting for you.All you have to do is ask Jesus to forgive your sins,and become lord of your life.Don't wait another day folks.If you want a relationship with the Lord in the next life,you must have one with him in this life......God bless

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

No one is asking you to condone homosexuality, OldEnuf. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most homosexuals don't even know you, and don't really give a rat's a** what you think or who you condone.

"If you believe in evolution (whatever angle you approach it), if animals are truly homosexual, they would either die out or be at a very low frequency in just a few generations. There is no evolutionary advantage to being homosexual. Now, you can whine about birds or other animals taking care of family, but they only do it so they are able to mate at a later date."

I would also like to say here that no one has even suggested that ALL animals are homosexual, even though homosexual behavior happens in the "natural" world. Just as ALL humans aren't gay.

Gee, there's all kinds of diversity in humans, and not one of them has ever been deemed "unnatural"...we aren't ALL male or female...we aren't ALL black or white or Asian or Native American or whatever other race...we aren't ALL tall, or short.

Just as in the animal world. If some animals are gay, it doesn't mean ALL of them are. Which pretty much shoots down your idea that they would die out if homosexual behavior existed in the animal world.

And Ranger...I, personally, think that we all should have the right to arm bears, too...

Marc76 8 years, 5 months ago

I was there all day and I was pissed this man was on my campus. Non-students have no rights to come on campus and preach hate or whatever. If it's a student who pays his money, I will give him or her a pass but some stranger has no bussiness there.

No matter what he has to say.

Bubarubu 8 years, 5 months ago

"These two preachers would never have been given a sanctioned venue at KU,even if they had asked, unlike Dawkins, who was invited, and paid by KU, to present his views."

On their own? No probably not. As the invited guests of a recognized student group? Sure they would have. No one invited them though, they chose this venue.

"the response to their message, the violence, the shouting, the effort to drown out their speech, the battery (throwing the condom was battery), is so gutter, so disgusting, so disdaining of the tradition of respect for free speech at KU, that I fear for the future of freedom at KU if this behavior goes unpunished."

Violence? Seriously? You mean the violence that KUPD explicitly said never happened? OK, just checking. Now, does throwing a condom constitute battery? I'll leave it to more legal minds than my own, but I hardly think it would attract the attention of any DA who has anything better to do...like cutting toenails.

Now, punishing students for reacting nonviolently against a message they disagreed with, that would threaten "the future of freedom". Seriously, try thinking before you type. That's about the most contradictory thing I've seen here.

"But passes as acceptable behavior, even in scheduled, structured settings, when the speaker is conservative. Ann Coulter is just one of the most recent examples."

I wasn't there, but as I understand it, the hecklers were eventually escorted out of the building by KUPD. I hardly think that counts as sanctioning their form of expression. As for the incident at Columbia, I don't think that was a smart or acceptable form of expression. I've also seen video of the event and it looks like uniformed security officers got on stage very quickly to shut the protest down.

As for liberal speakers getting heckled, it happened to Hillary last week (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10172006/news/regionalnews/war_foes_turn_on_hill_regionalnews_frankie_edozien.htm), Barbra Streisand was heckled at her own concert earlier this month, Ward Churchill was prohibited from speaking at campuses across the country because of threats of heckling and protests, and Howard Dean was heckled during a New Hampshire rally in 2004. You wanted examples, there you go.

"Will you have the same viewpoint when the person on Wescoe Beach is denouncing all who do not accept the strict sharia of Islam? Will you dare to throw a condom on his or her shoulder?"

Personally, I don't like to waste prophylactics, but just as that person would have a right to say his/her piece, I would have the right to react in opposition. Good job though on the really-easy-to-answer hypothetical though.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 5 months ago

I was there, trust me, no violence occurred!

Just a couple of apes spouting fallacies while a few hundred people politely told them why they were wrong. :)

afterONE 8 years, 5 months ago

You know, I'm a Jesus freak. I'm actually a pastor, but NEVER in a MILLION years would I condemn people. The church needs to understand the proper method of reaching people. It's not condemnation. We've tried that, and gotten nothing but bad reputations and rejection. How about we start loving the way Jesus did?

I think it's funny that the only people Jesus condemned ever, were religious people. Maybe he's trying to say something in that.

God forbid if I ever stop loving people...even those who are homosexual.

I believe it's time to be part of the solution, rather than the problem.

Who's with me?

feetxxxl 8 years, 5 months ago

what is tragic is that scripture has never indited the essence of homosexuality as a sin. the term homosexuality didnt exist until the middle 1800's and was created for medical purposes. western civilization that took upon themselves to translate scriptural verses with the word homosexual during a homophobic historical era. those who make the claim that scripture says this, have never studied those scriptures dealing with that subject ,and applied their understanding to spirit of fellowship and love in scripture. what you are hearing is not christ, but christian culture, which may or may not be the same. in this instance they are completely opposite.

drewdun 8 years, 5 months ago

"People live by moral and ethical codes, defying them at their peril, and structure their society on traditional marriage. We will not allow our society to be destroyed just yet." - parkay

Actually, there are now more single people in the US (including a large percentage who cohabitate without marriage) than 'traditionally married' people, in your parlance. And 'structuring our society around traditional marriage?' Maybe you think that, but not everyone does. I especially love the condescending tone that wingers take on these so-called moral or social issues - as if they have ANY room to judge anyone else. Didn't your king say something about that? Most righties seem to think that voting (R) and singing a few hymns a week makes them good people and makes their views more valid than others. Hence the gay marriage issue. They 'know' better than the gays that they can't be married, it would be immoral. Hey, I've got an idea - don't like gay marriage, DON'T MARRY SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX

manyblessings 8 years, 5 months ago

I don' t hate people who are gay. Jesus says to love our neighbor and even to love those who are our enemies and despitefully use us. However, God made it very clear that homosexuality is sinful. So is adultery, fornication, and gossiping. Anytime you are disobeying God you are committing sin. " All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one. " If you don't believe that homosexuality is spoken against in the Bible, read the book of Romans. Chapter one lays it out very clearly. Let us not forget, however, that ALL sin is an abomination to God and that we all need to ask God for His forgiveness and He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God loves the homosexual just as much as he loves the rest of us and Jesus died for the homosexuals too. We ALL need to repent and be saved before we can be justified on the day that we stand before the Lord.

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

kmat: "gr - do a google search and educate yourself. Yes, these penguins were captive. There are hundreds of species of animals that have been studied having homosexual relations in the wild."

Please, don't keep us in suspense any longer. Do tell us how many offspring these penguins had which were homosexual?

"If you yourself were gay, or were close to someone who was, you would know and understand that it is not a choice (unless you want to live a fake life so you can be accepted by homophobes like yourself). My cousin didn't chose to be gay, my best friend didn't chose to be gay. Now bi-sexual, that's a choice (and a very fun choice)."

Now doesn't that take the cake. One choice isn't a choice, but another DEFINITELY is?! And how do you know such things?

==============

crazyks: "Just as in the animal world. If some animals are gay, it doesn't mean ALL of them are. Which pretty much shoots down your idea that they would die out if homosexual behavior existed in the animal world."

Crazy ok. Where did I say or imply ALL? I'll repeat a third time, if it has to do with genetics rather than choice, those with the gene, HOMO, would die out. Those without the gene would not die out. What is it that you don't understand?

=========

feetxxxl: "those who make the claim that scripture says this, have never studied those scriptures"

For example, 1 Corinthians 6:9: " Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

Effeminate: malakov // malakos // mal-ak-os' //
Soft touch boy kept for homosexual relations with a man of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness of a male prostitute

abusers of themselves with "mankind": arsenokoithv // arsenokoites // ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace //
defile (one's) self with mankind one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

Sodomite: vdq // qadesh // kaw-dashe' //
male temple prostitute

Since the verse already specified fornicators and adulterers, what do you suggest the proper translation of "malakov" and abusers with mankind should be?

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

opinion: "If you know this about me, and you know that I am sure that without YOU trusting in Christ, YOU are under the wrath of God," ", but because Jesus has told me to share this love, I must."

I may not be fully understanding what you think about God, but I fear the worst. Let's jump to the endpoint. For those who choose to let desires rule their choices and say, 'we don't like God and we don't want God in our lives because we want what we want and we will have it', what do you believe God will do to them?

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

Tychoman,

I agree with Opinion: "To that, as the Scripture says, I said, that God will give them what they desire, which is separation from Him. This will be eternally."

However, you have a presupposition of what "hell" is. Opinion never said what he believed it was. How can you respond back with such a "pompous, arrogant, ignorant" reply? I think it's because of, "Now I can say what I've been dying to say". Sounds rather "pompous, arrogant, ignorant", without any attempt to understand, don't you think?

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

crazyks: "I would think animals are just as humans are. Some are gay, and some are not. As for the nature vs nurture idea, I think nature has"...blah, blah, blah.

I'm trying to talk genetics and you are trying to talk touchy-feelly stuff. Do you even understand genetics? Maybe that's why we're not meshing.

"I personally do not believe that being gay is a choice."

I think you are confusing "desire" with "choice". For example, I may have the desire to drag homosexuals behind trucks with gunracks in the back, but I have made the choice NOT to act upon that desire. Unfortunately, others have made the choice to act upon that desire.

Do you suggest that we all should act out our desires? Should our desires rule over our choices?

"I'm heterosexual, and I don't recall deciding to be so. Do you?"

Actually about the second grade. ;-)

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

To all you clowns who are complaining about the intolerance of Lawrence--Marion, Godot, Pilgrim-- are you listening to yourselves? You're calling students (who are exercising their free speech to oppose two bigots who spout hate and ignorance) intolerant?! SUCH hypocrisy!

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

Oh, please, Gr...

Children in the second grade aren't capable of making such a "decision", even if people could "decide". Children in the second grade don't even understand what homosexuality is. Hell, they don't even understand what SEXUALITY is, one way or the other. (And curiosity about bodies doesn't count as sexuality at this age...that is only the twist that adults have put on it.)

Just because you may have had a crush on a girl or even a teacher when you were in second grade doesn't mean you "chose" to be heterosexual.

Do you have "urges" to be heterosexual? Could you willingly decide not to act on those "desires"?

Could you "choose" to be totally asexual? And never have any sexual desire at all? This condition happens to people, you know. I don't suppose they "choose" it any more than anyone else "chooses" their sexuality.

I am heterosexual, and personally I didn't choose to be. It just happened. I do not recall any one defining moment when I "chose" to be heterosexual. And if they're being totally truthful (which I don't think you are; you're just deluding yourself), no one else has had such a moment, either.

opinion 8 years, 5 months ago

gr,

"what do you believe God will do to them"

They will get what they seek - separation from God, eternally.

opinion 8 years, 5 months ago

Tychoman,

gr said: "For those who choose to let desires rule their choices and say, 'we don't like God and we don't want God in our lives because we want what we want and we will have it', what do you believe God will do to them?

We have been given free will. gr asked about the person who chooses to not accept a relationship with God. To that, as the Scripture says, I said, that God will give them what they desire, which is separation from Him. This will be eternally.

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

Ah. Now I can say what I've been dying to say since you first posted that: That is the most pompous, arrogant, ignorant, cold sentence I've ever read on this forum!

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

And I'm sorry--and angry--that you feel the way you do. Closemindedness must suck. How does the world look in black and white, by the way?

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

Homosexuality isn't an ideology. And the students weren't demonstrating the same level of intolerance or hypocrisy of any kind. They weren't protesting the preachers' right to preach, they wereprotesting their content. I see no hypocrisy or intolerance. That's such a tired old argument "You're being intolerant of intolerance!" The students did the right thing by being "intolerant of intolerance." Be careful, Pilgrim, you're starting to sound like you're on the side of those preachers.

Snorkel 8 years, 5 months ago

Wait wait wait.

What do the teachings of Jesus have to do with a couple of bigoted neandrethals?

Oh wait, you guys don't believe in neandrethals, sorry.

Snorkel 8 years, 5 months ago

Pilgrim - If you could answer me, please. Do you see the difference between protesting against an ideology and protesting against an entire class of human being? Do you?

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

No, I read. Explain the misunderstanding and we can clear this up.

Pilgrim you are such a hypocrite. The students weren't violating the preachers' freedom of speech any more than the preachers' were violating the students' freedom from not being forced to see something obscene or offensive. And for the record, I don't go to KU. And Freedom of Speech says nothing about getting your own corner, the students did nothing wrong. The preachers decided to blast their crap in a certain spot (which they are free to do), but the students are also free to blast it right back in their face 6 inches in front of them.

Tychoman 8 years, 5 months ago

No, GR, I asked opinion if he was implying hell, and he said yes. The Scripture is mistaken and shouldn't be taken word-for-word like so many of you insist on doing.

Pilgrim, I am part of that group that got their own soapbox, and you're criticizing us and the students for being intolerant of your intolerance. It's just a circle that you insist on turning.

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

Tychoman: "No, GR, I asked opinion if he was implying hell, and he said yes."

Why is it that I get the feeling that whatever I write is not read? Did you stop reading once you found out I disagreed with you?

(Guess I'm not the only one....)

gr 8 years, 5 months ago

Tychoman: "No, I read. Explain the misunderstanding and we can clear this up."

I had said, I agree with Opinion: "To that, as the Scripture says, I said, that God will give them what they desire, which is separation from Him. This will be eternally."

You asked opinion if this is "hell" and he said yes. Then I said, However, you have a presupposition of what "hell" is. Opinion never said what he believed it was. and I accused you of "Now I can say what I've been dying to say " without attempting to understand.

So, let's try and take this slow and easy. Opinion believes people who don't want God around will eventually be allowed to get their way - separation from God. Hell, if you will. I did not see where Opinion defined "hell". But, you seem to have a preconceived idea of what "hell" is. Many people do. The Bible speaks of "hell". If you read it with your presuppositions, then you will find exactly what you want to back up your ideas of it.

However, just because you've "been dying to say" something, doesn't mean you are correct in your opinion when Opinion has not defined it. Only if he should define "hell" to be what you believe it to be, would you be in a position to say what you've "been dying to say". Don't be trigger happy when Opinion hasn't presented any target. If you notice, I had suspected he to have an attitude of what God would do like you do, but he said nothing of the sort. So, someone could press him for the specifics, or let it go for now.

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