Archive for Thursday, May 25, 2006

Anti-SLT letter going to the feds

Planning Commission votes to recommend dropping 32nd St. plan

May 25, 2006


Tonganoxie leaders say they want it. Lawrence leaders say they want it to go away.

That's the latest twist in the decades-old dispute surrounding a proposal to build a South Lawrence Trafficway aligned with 32nd Street through the Baker Wetlands.

On Wednesday, the Lawrence-Douglas County Planning Commission voted 7-3 to send a letter to the Federal Highway Administration urging it to abandon plans for the 32nd Street alignment. The vote comes as a public-comment session nears its close and two days after the Tonganoxie City Council - at the request of U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan. - voted unanimously to send a letter voicing support for the plan.

Earlier this month, Lawrence's City Commission voted 3-2 to send an official letter opposing the route, which also is opposed by environmental groups.

Wednesday's vote by the Planning Commission came after nearly two hours of debate.

The group agreed to send a version of a letter drafted by Commissioner John Haase that calls for abandoning the Wetlands route, focusing on building a connection between Kansas Highway 10 and Interstate 70 east of Lawrence, and expanding 31st Street to make a connection between the spot where the SLT now ends at U.S. 59 and an unspecified point on K-10.

But the letter won't go in the mail before revisions are made to tone down some language. For example, a section that recommends roundabouts to be built at intersections along the expanded 31st Street will be replaced to read roundabouts "or other appropriate-traffic control devices."

Chairman Terry Riordan, who voted against sending the letter, said the commission hadn't studied the issue closely enough to make such a detailed proposal. He questioned whether Haase's vision of 31st Street would do anything to solve traffic issues.

"This appears to me to be solely based on personal opinion," he said. "Do you really think that making the SLT a street with roundabouts and lowering the speed limit to 45 miles per hour will not be disruptive?"

Haase said his goal was simply to shift federal planners' thinking about the project and get them to explore an alternative to going through the wetlands.

"What they need in my judgment is something that piques their interest, and then they can look into the details," he said.

On Monday, the Tonganoxie City Council voted 3-0 to authorize Mayor Dave Taylor to send a letter supporting the 32nd Street alignment.

"With realization of the regional growth and commuter, commercial and industrial needs for efficient, safe traffic infrastructure, we see the SLT as beneficial to the populous as well as an element to attract new economic investment in the area," the letter states.

Caroline Trowbridge of the Tonganoxie Mirror contributed information.


average 11 years, 10 months ago

English teachers at Tonganoxie High may gently weep this morning.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Seems this commission has gotten a little big for its britches . a commission charged with making recommendations to the city/county now is overstepping its charter and speaking for us. Disband this commission now. LJW , please do the whole job of reporting and print the names and voting stance of these commissioners.

Jeff Goodrick 11 years, 10 months ago

What about us out in the county. That north bypass will only help Jefferson county. I live 17 miles from Lawrence and it takes longer to drive through Lawrence than drive to Lawrence.

Lonestar1 11 years, 10 months ago

Build the SLT!! We have been waiting for 20 years!

lunacydetector 11 years, 10 months ago

i have a theory that the ECO2 back door property tax hike must be on the outs and the environmentalists (progressives) are trying to force this losing issue by initiating these letters - which by the way, goes against what the populus voted for, approving the SLT years ago.

this isn't representative government. this is agenda to circumvent the citizens of lawrence.

come next election, let's vote the progressive commission out of office so some reasonable people can replace the cronies they appointed to all these commissions/committees.

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

This will be another long trail of hippies posting responses to save the frogs, salamanders, etc. Basically the commission and all of these people are ignoring the problems surrounding our great city, and don't care if the people that are forced to drive to work everyday have to deal with the congestion.

It will never get built...

lunacydetector 11 years, 10 months ago

...not with these people in office.

yes, expect some long cut-and-paste articles about east connectors or what not.

this isn't representative government in action. the citizens approved the SLT. to throw a monkey wrench in the works is a slap in the face to the voters of lawrence. this letter is all about trying to cause confusion on the federal level. hopefully, the feds will realize what is going on.

blessed3x 11 years, 10 months ago

In an attempt to save Merrill some time this morning. I will cut and paste for him:

The swamp is good for the following reasons:

" Pollution Control Wetlands filter water for free and thus lower the need for, or the loadings into, wastewater and drinking water treatment plants. Further loss of wetlands will lead to increased need for treatment plants and clean-up strategies. Water Supply Wetlands and major retention basins, providing large quantities of clean water for municipalities. Wetland losses will lead to loss of quality water supplies, requiring costly searches for new sources of water. Flood Control Wetlands help control flooding, and thus prevent the need for costly flood control projects. A one-acre wetland holds 330,000 gallons of water if flooded to one foot. Shipping By filtering tributaries and runoff, wetlands hold back vast amounts of sediment that would fill up navigation channels, saving hundreds of millions of tax dollars in dredging costs. Property Protection By preventing flooding and by acting as wave barrier to prevent coastal erosion, wetlands prevent loss of property. Property Values By serving as scenic open space and ad visual and sound buffers, wetlands enhance a community's amenities and therefore its property values. Tourism and Recreation By producing so much wildlife and fish, by serving as scenic open space, and by protecting water quality, wetlands greatly benefit businesses based on fishing, boating, hunting, swimming, and sightseeing, including the lodging, restaurant and service sector. Food Wetlands produce much of the fish harvested by the commercial fishing and aquaculture industries, and are the only place where cranberry, wild rice and other wetland crops can be grown. Natural Resources Wetland produce most of the furbearers for the trapping industry. Forest wetlands can be an important source of timber when managed properly. Fiscal and Tax Savings By performing all the above benefits for free, wetlands save billions of tax dollars by avoiding the need for costly flood, erosion, pollution control, dredging and water supply projects. They bring in fiscal revenues by supporting the recreation, tourism, food and service industries. By enhancing residential property values, they maintain higher tax revenues."


There, whew. Just sit back buddy and take another sip of that irish creme double latte espresso and give your ctrl key a break.

Sometimes that warm feeling of just wanting to help comes over me and voila!

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

while driving around the other morning it was so apparent that Lawrence has ignored traffic issues for the past 20 years . If Lawrence were truly up to date with streets we would have 23rd , 19th , 15th , 9th , and a variety of north south streets in fourlanes in good condition. what we have is old , small , dilapidated streets that have been butchered ,hacked and ignored for the past 20 years because no one in office has had the balls to do what is necessary.

Its time for a kicka@# infrastructure commission to be elected.

craigers 11 years, 10 months ago

The traffic congestion that would be helped by the SLT would be on 23rd and Iowa. An eastern bypass will do nothing for it. 23rd and Iowa will continue to be packed and crowded. I hope all that oppose the SLT will enjoy those roads. It will continue until down the road, they will recommend stretching the streets of 23rd and Iowa to six lanes to help traffic flow. It will be the Metcalf of Lawrence. Enjoy. I hope at some point, the road gets built, whether it is south of the river or the current 32nd st alignment that was "approved".

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

Looks like the pave-it-all-over kaffee klatsch is out in force this morning.

BTW, all the planning commission did was write a letter. It'll have all the force of a letter any of you might write-- or the one that the Tongy commission wrote.

GardenMomma 11 years, 10 months ago

Isn't there a way to compromise? Can't there by a southern bypass that doesn't go through the wetlands?

I agree that the traffic and road conditions on 23rd street are atrocious, but the wetlands are something worth preserving as well. There has to be a way to compromise. If that means driving a few miles extra, so be it.

I've seen some interesting suggestions in this forum on ways to get the traffic bypassing Lawrence and to keep the wetlands intact. Why haven't our leaders thought of those ideas? Has anybody written to them and made those suggestions?

erichaar 11 years, 10 months ago

"Anti-SLT letter going to the feds," the headline reads.

"Anti-PLC sentiment exploding in Lawrence" would be fitting for a future story.

Bob Reinsch 11 years, 10 months ago

Can we get going on his thing already? My wife works in Lawrence, we live in Lawrence, but I have to work in KC due to the IT glut in Lawrence. It takes 20 minutes on a good day to get from one end of Lawrence to the other. People can argue all they want about the benefits of an artificial swamp, but the fact of the matter is all those vehicles going down 23rd are going to spew whatever pollutants into the air in a residential area. Where is the common sense? Choosing frogs over humans? Idiocy.

Mike Ford 11 years, 10 months ago

actually, common sense seems to be winning out with the PLC's vote. They're getting the culmination of 150 years of dehumanizing comments (better not say racism!) that were directed at the original inhabitants of this area by the land speculators, corrupt politicians, and land squatters, who "Settled?" this state and disobeyed federal law saying that this was Indian Country. That was the 1850's, this is 2006, the attititudes haven't evolved (Oh, yeah right, this is Kansas, no evolution), and I see the same attitudes again. For the 32nd supporters, go read the "End of Indian Kansas" by William Unrau and Craig Miner. Take all of the 32nd supporters and put 19th century project pushers in their place. No difference? I thought so. The losers may whine, ( Yay!, it's about time).

warthog 11 years, 10 months ago

Somehow, I'm envisioning Lawrence as one big round-a-bout with no exits. "Come to think of it, you can't get there from here."

Cantbeleiveit 11 years, 10 months ago

Who ever these Idiots are they need to be taken out of thier positions as well! Build the dang Traffic way and be done with it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

Thanks for the contact into-- I'll be sure to let them know it was a job well done.

gccs14r 11 years, 10 months ago

The chambercrats didn't get it built, either.

Instead of the SLT, they should have built a park 'n ride lot at the Lawrence station for the interurban rail they should have built between Manhattan and Kansas City. Hop on at Lawrence, hop off at JCCC, then transfer to a metrorail line or bus for the last five miles to the destination.

Ken Miller 11 years, 10 months ago

Expect additional letters of support sent to the Feds from other Leavenworth Co. entities. Sen. Roberts is doing his best to go beyond (the fractured) Lawrence City Commission on this issue to generate support for getting the SLT built.

The political actors in the SLT play are continuing their maneuvering, with the level of frustration building even more. There is division within KDOT about the validity of the project, although it is not as pronounced (nor as public) as what we see in the City of Lawrence. Bottom line: don't expect to see an eastern leg of the SLT built any time soon.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Garden Momma. I'm in agreement that if the only way to get it built is to go farther south then it should be done that way. However the concern many have isn't the extra couple of minutes driving. It's the cost of extra miles of road plus 2 bridges. That is a huge cost.

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

I have a quick question.... Of all the people that OPPOSE the SLT being completed, how many actually live on the West side of Lawrence and would benefit from it. I would guess most of you live and/or work on the east side or center of town, and wouldn't use it, so you don't care.

There are a LOT of people that live on the West side, that work in the metro. These people are working in the metro, due to the low paying jobs in lawrence. Fix the economy of lawrence, and I'll even support shutting down the slt construction....

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

A while back, some engineers did some figuring on what it would cost to build south of the river, and also looked at estimates for building through the wetlands.

According to their estimates, KDOT lowballed the 32nd St. route they wanted, and exaggerated the costs of going south of the river.

JustLovingIt 11 years, 10 months ago

This is amazing and embarassing to me. Current Lawrence leadership is shortsighted and selfish. We have lost so much credibility as a community. Our City and Planning Commission needs a make over. Congrats to Riordan and the others who opposed this letter/position for standing ground....unfortunately, it is just not enough.

This just has to change in the coming elections or we will take 100 more steps backward.

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

The road is for the better of the ENTIRE population of lawrence, not a few elected leaders that don't know what they are doing.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony 88, do you have evidence that the major objection is from MANY in the community. From what I've seen and the people I've talked to (including many from Haskell) there just aren't that many objecting to it. The thing is that those who do object are very vocal. And before you ask for evidence, I don't have any, it is just my observations from talking to people.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

The main beneficiaries of this road will be the truck traffic that is seeking to avoid I-35 through KC, and the new US 59/ SLT will primarily serve as a KC bypass, not a Lawrence bypass.

Next will be the 10 per cent of the population who have chosen to live in west Lawrence and work in KC, or those who live in east Lawrence, and work in Topeka.

After that will be those who live in SE Lawrence, and want to shop at the big-box stores on S. Iowa.

For easily 80% of the population of Lawrence, completion of the SLT will have minimal effect on their daily lives.

Pilgrim, the Planning Commission is far more than an advisory board. They exist for the purpose of planning, as their name suggests, and it's entirely appropriate that they comment on something as crucial as this road in the planning of Douglas County's infrastructure.

And I have no doubt if the letter they sent was along the lines of your own opinion, you'd be cheering them on.

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago

Living on the east side of town I can say that there is a lot of traffic that would benefit from the SLT. It is hard to get to my house if I go down 23rd for any distance. If the trafficway was built then this would clear up some of this traffic because the people leaving Lawrence to go to KC would not have to use 23rd street at all. I don't understand why people of this town are so against something that WOULD help the city of Lawrence now and into the future.

fletch 11 years, 10 months ago

Let's ignore all of the environmental facts for a second (many of which are valid). It's also a burial ground. How many of you would be happy if the cemetary your parents, grandparents, children, or friends were buried in suddenly had a highway going through it. You'd be up in arms. Just because you might not understand native american rituals and practices, doesn't make them any less valid or sacred.

staff04 11 years, 10 months ago

Because only progressives and hippies care about the environment, right?


happyone 11 years, 10 months ago

I think the SLT is a BAD idea and always have. Now before I get jumped by everyone that is for the SLT, let me say that I live on the westside of town AND work in town as does my spouse. Anyone familiar with Lawrence can find other routes across town. 23rd street is NOT the only street that goes from west to east. Yes alternate routes may make you drive slower but there is less traffic and therefor you get across town much quicker!! I can get from one end of town to the other (even during 5pm traffic) in less than 15 minutes without taking 23rd St and without speeding. Most people that are for the SLT are not educated on all the ramifications it would cause to the environment regardless of where it is built. And not to sound bad but since it for people to avoid Lawrence perhaps you should consider other existing roadways. If in Topeka use 24-40 or I-70 to skip town on your way to KC (or visa versa) these can even be used from Lawrence.

Kaw Pickinton 11 years, 10 months ago

We need a bypass with an on ramp connected to every driveway in west Lawrence! Oh, we should also build a super-highway connecting Iowa St. with Eudora over Allen Fieldhouse through the county court house and Oak Hill cemetery. Why are we even screwing arond? Those things are man made, they can go. WE NEED MORE ROADS DAMIT! You try driving my Hummer H3 that I use to commute to work in Dallas every day, alone. We voted for this! And we all know how votes are ALWAYS right! Well except when we vote Rundle in over and over and over. Votes got us Bush & Iraq! The germans voted Hitler in, look how well that went.

If you think it takes to long to get to work because your work in another city, why not try moving a little closer to work?

Sigmund 11 years, 10 months ago

"Part time" residents pay full time real estate taxes, full time prices in shops, and full time sales taxes. Let the ecomentalist make their case for frogs needing a swamp and let the worshipers of dead Indian Spirits make their case (if they were going to be a Indian Gaming Casino there, I'm sure they would find away to apease the Great Pumpkin or whotever), and then LET THE ALL PEOPLE VOTE ON THE ISSUE!

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago

I don't care if people are against the SLT or WHERE it is trying to be built. You people who think that is is going to ruin the wetlands and all of its "sacred animals" really need to get a clue. Those wetlands were put there by us and we can take them out again and put them somewhere else. This is ridiculous, that road was started and should be finished. We were given money to build the road where it is now, not somewhere else that would be out of the way for people that WANTED to use it to commute to KC. Some people like living on the west side of town, but have a job that they like in KC, that is why they don't move closer to their job.

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony88.... the reason we respect God and religion is because that is what our country was founded on. Maybe if you respected our country's history you would realize that.

lunacydetector 11 years, 10 months ago

what, no comments about my theory of ECO2 going down the toilet? you know ECO2 -the joint chamber/environ'mental' cause to bring in obsolete industrial ground and give the environmentalists some taxpayer subsidized greenspace? where it was suggested a backdoor tax increase could be pushed through with the use of a property tax increase instead of a sales tax increase because the citizens wouldn't approve a sales tax increase? is/was the free greenspace a reward so the environmentalists would back off from their opposition of the 32nd street SLT alignment?

i hope to read an article about the demise of ECO2 in the very near future. it would prove my theory about these letters and the divisive tone from our city commissioners and the lawrence-douglas county planning commission (when are they going to split that group up, anyway?).

also, the citizens voted and approved the SLT years ago. where is our representative government? does representative government matter anymore or only the vocal minority of the special interest groups?

happyone 11 years, 10 months ago

BabyJay--If they like their house and their job then they need to quit B*THCHING about the amount of time it takes to drive there. They should have thought about that first. They should also be happy that they have a motor vehicle to get them back and forth and not a horse and buggy! Oh wait maybe they should be forced to use a horse and buggy for a week that should shut them up!!

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony 88, You'd better check housing costs in KC versus Lawrence. There are areas of Johnson County with higher housing costs, but not many. Lawrence stopped being the low cost place to live more than a decade ago.

lunacydetector 11 years, 10 months ago

POSTED BY tony 88:
"part-time" residents DO hurt the local economy, Sigmund, by shifting the revenue their jobs generate to KC and Topeka. they spend money in KC/Topeka on a daily basis. They exploit Lawrence for its lower housing costs and Kansas City for its higher wages.

tell THAT to boog and schauner who both commute to topeka for their incomes then try to run our city government. who are THEY exploiting?

Jay_Z 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony88--lower housing costs in Lawrence? Are you out of your freakin' mind? There are very few high paying jobs in Lawrence, so logically, many people have to work in KC or Topeka. Just common sense might try using it sometime!

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Baker has the authority and should drain the wetlands and do us all a favor. If you can't tell me where the graves are then stop talking about them. now were down to salamanders and frogs , who cares !

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

What you really mean to say is, "I don't care." Just because you're an asphalt-loving nimbyist doesn't mean everybody is, cowboy.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Hey bozo is your break at the merc about over now ? New is not always bad , quite frankly lawrence could use a lot of new , new streets , parks , housing , tear down the rental slums , new commissions , and a new start !

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

My numbers are guesses, but I have seen estimates of these things, and 10% of the population commuting to KC and Topeka who would use the completed SLT is probably pretty close to right.

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony88, what is your contribution to the city of Lawrence? What do you do that makes you so much better than the people that work in KC? I do, and I buy all of my supplies, groceries, etc in Lawrence. I don't contribute any $$$ to KC except for lunches.

This argument is not about where people work. It's about the freakin infrastructure of our town. If it stays like it is, the town will become overcrowded, and the environmentally safe igloo that you live in will be surrounded by high rises and sewage.

Let's clarify: - There's no proof of an indian burial ground out there - The land belongs to Baker, and was approved by them to build on it at the current route - The wetlands can be moved, and part of the agreement is to dedicate more land for them - People that work in KC contribute a TON of money to this community...probably more per capita than people that live in the city

Get over yourself. You are posting false statements about housing costs, and religion that have nothing to do with the issue. And the only reason you think there is a "lot of opposition" is because of who you hang out with.

By the doesn't matter if we vote on this. It's the State and the county that are going to decide on it, not the lawrence citizens.


just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"Hey bozo is your break at the merc about over now ?"

I don't work at the Merc-- never have, but is that intended as an insult?

BTW, when is your break over?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"The wetlands can be moved, and part of the agreement is to dedicate more land for them"

What are you thinking-- rent a Uhaul and buy a case of beer? Or maybe two Uhauls and two cases of beer?

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

A study done at ku in 2000 stated 25% of households have at least one commuter heading to topeka or KC. If youre going to spout numbers at least use google to get some accurate data !

hipper_than_hip 11 years, 10 months ago

Do you have a full time job in Lawrence Tony, or are you still in school?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"A study done at ku in 2000 stated 25% of households"

And if half of those live in an area that would require them to use the completed SLT, then my stats are just about right.

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

I am not understanding your argument, if we work somewhere else we should move away? That is a brilliant plan to bring dollars here! Get out you spending whores! bite bite bite. Do you not realize that spending $$ here is spending $$ here, period? My husband and his family own a company in KC and he foolishly met and married me, a Lawrence woman who will NOT live in KC (even though it doesnt have roundabouts and does have Red Lobster, dammit). He is not going to sell his family business to "keep it in Lawrence" and he is NOT going to live by himself in KC whilst I live here. Oh and I am a paying student at the University, also bringing $$ here. (BTW how about E85 station here, eh? that would rock) He stops at the grocery store here in Lawrence every night on his way home to his DG tax paid home, or we go out to dinner here (translation:$$ spent in DG CO). Now, should I forego my love of Lawrence, drop out of school, leave my family and stop exploiting Lawrence' laughable...low cost of living and move to KC?? Now, if, by exploitation, you meant "make productive use of" Lawrence then I think we do that, you're right. We pay plenty to live here and enjoy Lawrence. It is a symbiotic relationship.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

And on and on it goes.

On the one side those who want the countryside paved in order to save themselves the "burden" of travelling on overcrowded streets in their temperature controlled automobiles all the while spewing pollution it to the air and advocating the continuation of the flawed development policies that lead to the crowded conditions.

On the other hand, people who want to preserve a bit of our diminishing countryside by putting forth the audacious idea that the trafficway should be routed south of the river. This will cost more but they are willing to pay for that investment in the quality of community life.

After listening to years and years of this argument it is simply amazing how much of this boils down to the selfish arguments of convenience on the one side and the idealistic notions of valuing our natural surroundings on the other. It is a pity that the proponents of growth at all costs are so often successful and able to impose their shortsightedness on those who know better. That is the way this is shaping up. My only wish is for each one of the morons that has been bleating for the SLT, unchecked development and growth to have to endure the unabated continuation of the Metcalfization of Lawrence. What is that old saying....something about insanity is doing the same old things and expecting different results. "Lawrence, the insane burb."

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

I'm worried about $$$ for the freakin city you live in and take advantage of. If it weren't for the people that work in KC contributing to this city, it would fail. People like yourself that buy 1 gallon of gas for your scooter, and eat recycled food, don't make this city work. Find me a job in this town that pays me enough to afford my modest, 3br house, and I'll work here. Good luck!

As far as your other comments, they are ALL speculation. It's not worth arguing with people like you, because your hatred for the common good just clouds the issue. I'm done.

BTW, well said Marion and BabyJ.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

This is interesting-- it's the text from the website for the Planning Commission, cut and pasted from the PDF file of their bylaws.

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gccs14r 11 years, 10 months ago

I've been commuting down 23rd street from Kasold to Massachusetts anywhere from 7:30 to 9:00 in the morning for the last couple of months. What traffic? Anyone who thinks 23rd street has a traffic problem should go drive in a city somewhere.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago


Evidently you do not have the skills needed in this community to find a job to support your chosen (albeit, modest) lifestyle. Nevertheless, you have chosen to live here and commute to where you work. But, in order to make your commute a bit easier, you insist that we change the nature of our community by paving over a treasured natural area. Reminds me of a few three year olds I know. I want, I want, Iwant, I WANT, etc.......

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony88.... you are just stubborn and are not listening to everything that people are saying, you are turning others statements into something that is against your personal opinion. Yes maybe they are putting some money into the KC economy, but 99% of it is going to our own economy. Here is another thing to think about too, the way that Lawrence is growing and the smaller surrounding cities, they are eventually going to be suburbs or Lawrence. So having the SLT in the future will be very benefical in helping traffic.

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

Ok, so money is going to KC too. Is that a problem for you and if so, why? Why does it bother you so much? Do you really believe that most people CHOOSE a commute when they could just work here? ya know, the funny thing is, 8 years ago I turned down a job in downtown KC with a huge pay raise because I didnt want to commute. It meant a smaller home and less things. You would think I would be behind your argument, but quite the opposite. I dont have any vitriol for those who work outside of Lawrence. That was my choice and I would never expect or force someone else to think the same way; many simply cannot afford that choice. Do you have some secret high paying job in lawrence that we dont know about? I just retired from one of the only major corporations in the town and I know I was very lucky to make that kind of money. My husband and I could not support our family on the wages in Lawrence alone. I dont know how most people do it, really! The only people I know that do are local business owners THAT WE SUPPORT with our dollars here. If there isn't enough well paying jobs here to support the masses, then we go elsewhere. Why dont you ask your fabulous local Lawrence Chamber of Commerce president about his stand on union or wages?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

I don't care where someone chooses to live and work. But demanding that the state spend at least $210 million to cram a highway through Haskell's wetlands just to accomodate that choice does rub me as very wrong.

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago


Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you trash someones skills and abilities.... also what "treasured natural area" are you talking about. Because if it is the wetlands, they ARE NOT nautral. They were put there by people of this area. And I don't know what is so treasured about it... it is disgusting looking and it doesn't smell real plesant either. Are you driving by the same place that everyone else does?

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago

Also it isn't Haskell's wetlands..... not anymore. It is the BAKER WETLANDS, read the article correctly and you will see that.

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

obviously, traffic is a sore subject to a number of Lawrence residents. No one thing is going to be a solution and trashing people who commute is not a good start. If you notice, I didnt say one word about the SLT, for or against. Do not assume that one who commutes automatically is for the SLT. Gifford Pinchot, the first Chief of the Forest Service, summed up the mission of the Forest Service- "to provide the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people in the long run."

Jay_Z 11 years, 10 months ago

Who cares if some of the money stays in KC or Topeka? It's not possible to keep all the money in Lawrence....if we did things your way no one would be allowed to leave Lawrence and we'd live in a bubble. Sounds fantastic, enjoy it.

tkmoore 11 years, 10 months ago

Please lets vote them all out and start over before this mess gets really bad. It seem they must not have to drive in this town between 3pm and 6pm. GET THEN ALL OUT!

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago


I wasn't trashing so much as stating the unpleasant reality. If you cannot find a suitable job to your liking in Lawrence, then you do not have the right mix of skills and talents to get a job here. If you have to travel so far away to find something that does place sufficient value on your skills and talents, then I think you should not have a right to insist that your chosen home fit itself to the choice you have made to live here. That is the point. Hordes of people have moved here over the last 20 years because they like certain aspects of the community (and there is plenty to like, I will grant you) but then they insist that the community change in order to accomodate their choice. Sorry, but I don't think that is fair to the majority of us.

As far as the wetlands, it is a shame you cannot value the beauty of the place. You should wander out there some time. There are beuatiful things to see to those willing to get out of their cars and actually experience a bit of the natural world that lives there. It has been altered by man, no doubt, most of the planet has been. That does not mean that there are not natural wonders there. There are also hundreds of different bird species that you can see there are they migrate through the area. I've seen coyotes there, deer and bobcats, crabs, beautiful turtles basking in the sun, all kinds of different plants and grasses, trees and shrubs, muskrat, etc..... I could go on and on, but I guess you have your mind made up. No doubt the parking lot of the nearest Walmart and your manicured (and toxic) lawn are about as close to nature as you want to be. It is your loss, and it is a shame that you don't even recognize what you wish to destroy. Oh well, one day you'll enjoy a commute that is two minutes shorter. And the place won't disgust you any'll be a highway shoulder, or a parking lot, maybe a sub-division. NIce bland, lifeless conformity. Can't get enough of those places, can we?

chzypoof1 11 years, 10 months ago

Scott...don't run your mouth unless you know about the people you are talking about. I have the right skills for this town. But no one pays enough in the IT field in this town to afford a home. That's why I work in the metro. I would love to work in Lawrence, but no one pays well enough to stay there.

My wife works in town, and I love that.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

BabyJay13, Get out of your car and take a walk once in a while.

Read the articles but do some research too. Baker obtained the land illegally.

title 25, chapter 7, section 293a. "That no more than fifty acres of land shall be transferred under the terms of this section in connection with any single school property conveyed to State or local governmental agencies or to local school authorities..." Baker received 573 acres.

If I steal your car, can I keep it? I can sell it for a profit?

happyone 11 years, 10 months ago

I still think that the SLT is a BAD idea!!! There is no REAL need for it. (unless you want to over develop the south side of town more than it already is!!)

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

I'm tired of the "Baker got the land illegally argument." If there was merit to the argument there would be litigation pending and there isn't. I know I heard that there is only so much money available in the choice of what to litigate by the native americans, but that means the choices are based upon likelyhood of success, or on the impact to the tribes. Since the litigation hasn't happened either the tribes don't believe they have a legal claim, or they don't consider it as sacred of an area as some like to claim.

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago


Some people have great skills and still work in the metro and for one of the biggest IT health companies in the midwest. So know who you are talking about and don't group everyone into the same category. As far as the wetlands that you are talking about, I grew up outside of Lawrence, and I saw those kinds of animals on a daily basis, there are TONS of those kinds of animals around and you don't have to have a man made swamp for them to live in inside the city limits.

That is the biggest problem is the location of the wetlands. Those animals are not going to go extinct if we build the trafficway, they have plenty of other areas to live, and coyotes don't need to be that close to the city anyway, it isn't good for the household animals..... So would your idea would be for those animals to be able to wander around this close to our children, pets, etc.?

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

Well, a very eloquent paragraph about the wetland. That being said: I am a member of this community if I live here. I have rights equal to yours, like it or not. I have rights even if I am jobless! Last time I checked, employment was not on the voter registration form. That right exists whether or not I like the jobs in Lawrence, do not like the jobs in Lawrence, have talent and skills, do not have talent and skills, do not like green eggs and ham or do not like green eggs and ham. Why dont you place the same value on your fellow Lawrencians as you do the plants and grasses, trees and shrubs, and muskrats you defend?

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

oops, in my talentless and skillfree nature, I done repeated myself. I do like green eggs and ham.

Jay_Z 11 years, 10 months ago

Scott, the main talents/skills required to get a job here do not require a college degree--i.e. retail, food service, etc. The simple fact is there are very few jobs in Lawrence for college grads--or should I say jobs desired by college grads. Basically, a lot of people in Lawrence have more talents/skills than required by the job market in Lawrence, hence they commute to Topeka or KC.

wheremyshoes 11 years, 10 months ago

What has happened to the Lawrence community? Ultimately, natural resources are all we have and the wetlands are a natural resource. How much extra would it cost to build an elevated roadway with sound baffles to protect the sanctity of the wetlands? Petty bickering doesn't get anything done. Instead, how about a handshake and an acknowledgment from the "economic developers" that the wetlands ARE important to a lot of very well informed people. Would this road even be an issue if, instead of a wetlands, the land had already been developed as an Alvamar golf course? It's really all about socioeconomic values and the country-clubbers just don't care. And, oh yeah, your president still can't say nuclear.

BabyJay13 11 years, 10 months ago


I grew up around all different kinds of animals and the outdoors, so don't tell me to get out of a car and take a walk, I know what it is like, and I know what I am going to see. That isn't the point, and once again you all need to know the person you are talking about before you make your idiotic comments. I am tired of hearing your hippie liberal talk.... it is just annoying. I am done..... no matter what anyone says you all just have some other general comment that everyone has heard from you a million times.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Well of course many people commute from Lawrence in order to work. The city commission prefers it that way. They have taken a very anti-business attitude on many issues. When asked about the anti-business policies they put in place and the impact it has on well paying jobs, one of the commissioners went on record saying that the idea of Lawrence becoming a bedroom community was not a bad idea. Now the same commissioners that are in favor of a bedroom community are against doing things to improve traffic because of the commuters. With housing now more expensive in Lawrence than in KC or Topeka, traffic problems, etc. Soon we'll have people moving from Lawrence to KC or Topeka just like Tony 88 suggests. Then we'll be left without a tax base of businesses or homeowners.

Great Idea.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago


First, thank you.

Second, I am not, unfortunately, Supreme Ruler of the Universe. I offer you my opinion, nothing more. I think it is (insert your own derogatory adjective here) to chose to move to a city miles and miles away from where you work & then bitch about the burden of your commute. If you don't want to fight through traffic, across town, etc.... then don't move here & try to impose these changes on the community to make your choice easier. You can certainly argue that such an argument is your right & that is fine. But the end result of that argument, if you are successful, is the traffic, crowding, pollution and every other bad thing about big city living that is experienced across the country. That is not what I want to see in the future for Lawrence. How long before we have a beltway? When do the traffic reports start? That is where we are headed. I object.

Third, I don't coment here all that often but when I do I tend to reveal my low opinion of much of humanity. My fellow Lawrencians, such as they are, seem perfectly adept at insisting that the coutryside be ruined, wiped away, etc.. in order to suit their selfish needs and desires. I do not think we are at risk of wiping out the human species. Sadly the same cannot be said for the actions of "my fellow Lawrencians" who seem to be determined to pave and "develop" at the expense of much of our natural world. So, yes, I prefer to argue for the natural world because so few other people do. Tis my right.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

conservative, "If there was merit to the argument there would be litigation pending and there isn't."

Who said there won't be...

Timing is everything.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago


yes timing is everything, and the 32nd street route was decided 20 years ago if I understand the situation.

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

"Let us settle Kansas with people who will make it free by their own voice and vote." In accordance with this purpose, "The Emigrant Aid Company" was formed in Massachusetts. On arriving in Kansas, Mr. Branscomb and some others passed again over the Lawrence town site, while Dr. Robinson went up the Missouri river to Leavenworth and other points. On the evening of Sunday we encamped on the lands of the Shawnee Indians. On Monday morning we started early, and in the evening arrived at the Wakarusa river, within ten miles of our destination. Here we camped, and the next day reached our new home. Here we established our camp, and pitched our twenty-five tents, which made a fine appearance though somewhat soiled. On Wednesday the second day of August, we went to work setting up our claim to the lands, and preparing for permanent settlement." When the second party arrived they met the members of the first party and soon agreed upon terms of union with them in laying out the town. The members of the party were soon scattered here and there seeking claims for themselves. September 18th a meeting of the settlers was held to effect a town organization. The necessity for this arose from the fact that there were no laws regulating such matters. The only thing they could do was to set up a sort of voluntary municipal government. The name of the town had not been determined upon. It had been called Wakarusa, Yankee-town, and New Boston. After a full discussion it was decided to give it the name of Lawrence, after Amos A. Lawrence, of Boston. Mr. Lawrence was one of the first men of means to endorse the movement for the settlement of Kansas in the interest of freedom. He was a man of large wealth and belonged to one of the most distinguished New England families. He was also a man of wide personal influence. He was treasurer of "The New England Emigrant Aid Company," and a very liberal contributor to its funds. A little later he gave some twelve thousand dollars to help found a college at Lawrence, which ultimately became a part of the endowment of the state university.

**Darn! looks like we was set up by some filthy rich liberal elite Easterners to be a democratic and educated society. I wonder if Amos commuted?

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago


I'll remind you that I was not complaining nor arguing for or against any proposed SLT or other changes. I am simply shocked at your opinion of people who drive to other communities to work. It seems such a small trigger for such a low opinion.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago


"I grew up around all different kinds of animals and the outdoors, so don't tell me to get out of a car and take a walk, I know what it is like, and I know what I am going to see."

There are a lot of people who didn't. Give the city kids and everyone else a chance to have the same experience. Why would you want to deny people the chance?

BTW, you never answered my question... Can I steal your car and keep it?

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

"And there is nothing there that does not also exist elsewhere in Douglas County, so nothing will be "lost." Build the road!"

By that same logic, we have plenty of roads and need no new ones.

I wonder how many people in Wynadotte or Shawnee, or Jackson county, Missouri had the exact same view. How many of these sorts of places remain there? Has anything been lost from those comunities as a result of man's "development?"

I know people like you place no value on preserving such things, so it is pointless to hope to convince you to open your mind. But there is value to articulating an alternative to ignorance, so I'll offer my views for what they are worth.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago


I love how if others have different opinions or priorities than you do they are speaking from ignorance.

Jean1183 11 years, 10 months ago


I believe that 31st street was the initial route picked twenty years ago. The 32nd street route was a "compromise". The Corps of Engineers looked at at three possible routes (31st, 32nd, and south of the river) and determined that the 32nd street route would be best.

Build the SLT!!! I live on the east side of Lawrence and work east of Lawrence (but not in KC). I HATE having to go into Lawrence for anything due to all the traffic.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

Thanks, I tend to be enamored of my opinions too.

I do think it is sheer ignorance to insist on paving through the wetlands. What good reason is there not to pursue a route south of the river that enjoys vastly superior public support - with support meaning that people would pay the additional costs. How much time, effort, expense, etc... has been wasted on this blind insistence on routing it through the wetlands?

Name me the good reasons for running it through the wetlands that is not just that someone allegedly decided on it several years ago. I can name reason after reason that I am opposed. Please explain why it must, at all costs, even the costs of decades of delay and added expense, it must be placed through the wetlands and nowhere else.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago


Actually I've been voicing that I don't care where it is built as long as it does in fact get built (and soon). My understanding though is that the money is an issue. The costs of extra miles of road and two bridges aren't cheap. But I'm not of the opinion that it NEEDS to go through the wetlands, just that it probably will.

Probably should back up and state that it needs to be built to the south of town. The East bypass idea makes no sense to me since I don't think it will alleviate traffic, and would be redundant since another entrance to the turnpike is already being built in that area.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

Alright then. Room for compromise. I am not against the SLT being finished. I can accept a route south of the river. I do think that building the road will just encourage further ill-planned growth that will just contribute even more to the traffic probems, but if it must be built, at least build it south of the river.

Now, for all you pave the wetlands types. I still do not see a compelling reason why it must be 32nd Street & nowhere else. I don't buy the extra cost argument. There is far more support for finishing this project soon and at a reasonable rate than there is for the years of litigation, additional cost and unrelieved traffic that will result from insisting on the 32nd Street alignment.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

conservative, I believe this was the first time the 32nd Street alignment was mentioned.

"Placement of the new wetlands could be on either side of the Baker Wetlands, Rees said, and could play a role in what alignment is proposed for the unfinished eastern leg of the trafficway. He said the trafficway could follow 31st, 32nd, 35th or even 38th street, to connect to Kansas Highway 10."

lawrencechick 11 years, 10 months ago

These commissioners have some nerve sending a letter representing Lawrence, when 90% of the people disagree with their position. Build the damn road, so the frogs can stop choking on the constant exhaust fumes from the back up on 31st street. The next city election cannot come soon enough!

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

"These commissioners have some nerve sending a letter representing Lawrence, when 90% of the people disagree with their position. Build the damn road, so the frogs can stop choking on the constant exhaust fumes from the back up on 31st street. The next city election cannot come soon enough!"

Someone was saying something earlier about how I just labelled as ignorant anyone that differed from my views. Funny! I'll just ask that the thoughtful statement above be considered as my final rebuttal.

Wendy magillicutty 11 years, 10 months ago

to Macon47: thx! I guess I'd be braggin! :) I'm working on gettin him to move his family's 30 year factory here, but that'll take some work. What would we do with all them dern pesky KC employees? Would they still be evil commuters if they work HERE but live THERE?

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

scott3460, "I don't buy the extra cost argument."

No one should.

"The corps estimated its version of the south-of-the-river route would cost $128.5 million to build. The tribe maintains its route would cost $111.9 million, or as little as $92.2 million if bridges were narrowed to two lanes. The corps' chosen route, through the wetlands, is estimated to cost $110.2 million. "Why not do something that costs about the same, or costs less, and doesn't damage the wetlands?" Prager asked. Bob Smith, the trafficway project manager for the corps, said the corps did check out a variety of options for building a highway south of the river. The agency recently reviewed the tribe's suggestions and determined that it actually would cost about $123.2 million.

Not that cost is the overriding factor."

hipper_than_hip 11 years, 10 months ago

Is hunting or trapping allowed in the wetlands? I'll love to get a bobcat.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago

Hipper than hip:

Doubt that you'd see anything as wild as a bobcat there nowadays. Another "benefit" of the development that Lawrence has seen.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago


I think your alligator farm might have some trouble keeping it's critters alive through the Kansas winters. But it does serve as a useful reminder of the common result of man's efforts to "improve" upon God's handiwork.

lawrencechick 11 years, 10 months ago

Scott 3460- You've done a great job convincing people that you can see all sides of every situation. You're the kind of person however, that never gets anything done. Pick a side and stick to it. PS- If it were put to a vote, I'm sure it would get at least 90%!

davisnin 11 years, 10 months ago

If you hate the traffic move. If the road is built there will still be traffic. Johnson County, the place so many of you seem to want Lawrence to become, has lots of roads and lots of traffic.

Richard Heckler 11 years, 10 months ago

This concept has Tonganoxie in mind and actually provides more to citizens for the long term future.

Forget trafficway Friday, April 21, 2006

To the editor:

Why not agree on a south-of-the-river bypass and forget the obsolete trafficway concept? Spend tax dollars on a more practical application. Introduce appropriate plans designed to meet future needs, a plan that could bring Johnson, Douglas and Leavenworth counties together as partners. This requires bridges across the river. All three counties would benefit, thus would assist funding the project. Then, turn the entire road project over to the Kansas Turnpike Authority.

A south-of-the-river route would join County Road 1057 and Kansas Highway 10 to carry traffic north to Interstate 70 by way of I-70 connectors meeting a Tonganoxie turnpike interchange.

This concept accomplishes many things. It services:

¢ Johnson and Douglas counties' traffic going to northwest Lawrence or Topeka.

¢ the Eudora Business Park east of 1057.

¢ East Hills Business Park and the southeast Lawrence industrial park.

¢ the Lawrence airport.

And it:

¢ diverts traffic around the city.

¢ keeps the SLT out of the wetlands.

¢ reduces congestion for morning and afternoon commuters.

¢ might save Douglas County taxpayers millions of dollars.

¢ is a practical and prudent use of tax dollars.

¢ eliminates the need for an eastern bypass.

¢ eliminates much large truck traffic on 23rd Street.

¢ allows KTA fees to pay for the highway and the maintenance.

Building a road through the wetlands at any cost at this point in time is simply not prudent use of Douglas County tax dollars.

davisnin 11 years, 10 months ago

Imagine the new Starbucks opportunities. Lawrence will finally have enough jobs for everyone.

Mike Ford 11 years, 10 months ago

I will define racism. When one's religion is connected to the land and a specific tribe and their religion as identified and protected by federal law are attacked and disconnected from the discussion as to mitigate their legitimate stake in the stopping of this particular 32nd street route from happening, this is racism.

I can safely say that the majority of the people posting these ridiculous statements about the "Great Pumpkin" and casinos are doing so in veiled tongue. They're saying racist things without invoking the racist tone that would get their comment removed.

the consultation group that Baker hired for archaeological findings dug in a specific area, for PR reasons. So the average Joe would believe their assertions of no burials in the whole wetlands. You can count on most people not reading the whole story. Otherwise, I wouldn't be seeing all of the dumb, insensitive and uneducated comments that I see here. They were college kids from Colorado. And their dig was unconclusive.

Haskell was created by White People in the 19th century to kill Native culture through assimilation. Progress was viewed through the success of assimilation. It's funny now that the educated progressives are being attacked by the uneducated masses who don't know federal law and don't care if they break the law. I remember a meeting we had at Haskell where we warned them about the attacks we withstand on a daily basis for asserting our identity and culture. Guilt makes people say bad things as I'm seeing with these posts. I commend the PLC for standing against the "Might makes right" people who don't study laws, adapt or complain.

Scott Drummond 11 years, 10 months ago


Thanks for the compliment, although I am sure it was not intended. I am open-minded enough to see (understand?) the arguments on all sides of most issues. I also think it clear that I am in favor of a route south of the river. Perhaps you will answer my question about why the SLT MUST go through the wetlands and cannot go south of the river. No one else seems capable, or perhaps that is, willing.

Mike Ford 11 years, 10 months ago

In the choice words of one of my Cheyenne friends, my religion's been here, Christianity came on a boat with the rest of the problems.

Sacred sites like Poverty Point in Louisiana, the Nunih Waiya in Mississippi, the Creek Oldfields in Georgia, the Effigy Mounds in Iowa, the Serpent Mound in Ohio, and the Angel Mounds of Indiana were part of all Indigenous People's centers of worship. People like Marion show contempt for these sites which survived the destruction of colonization. These places were and continue to be places of worship for Native People unless the national park service steals them for display and people like Marion advocate the destruction of them because they are "Dirt". They may be dirt to the immigrants who came here 300 or 400 years ago. They're more than dirt to the ancestors of people like the Kaw, Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, Winnebago or Ho-Chunk, and Chahta people. They're our memories, our points of origin and reference. You advocate destruction of them and places like the wetlands, because you really aren't from here. I dare you to travel to a place like the Medicine Wheel in the Tetons of Wyoming and advocate the destruction of them. It wouldn't surprise me if you did advocate their destruction.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

Pilgrim, "It was a post from someone else in this endless string of threads on the SLT. Don't have time to find the specific post now. You can look for it yourself."

Hey, do your own work, site your source.

Richard Heckler 11 years, 10 months ago

Off the subject a bit but there are many traffic calming islands and roundabouts throughout the K.C. Metro. Overland Park was completing landscape work on what appeared to be a new roundabout on Santa Fe Drive. Santa Fe Drive has several traffic calming islands as do other streets that run parallel.

Brookside has more than I can remember.

Also so many neighborhood speed limits are at 25 MPH in both Kansas and Missouri of the KC metro.

Mike Ford 11 years, 10 months ago

macon47, your ancestors came here to Kaw, Shawnee, Miami, Kickapoo, Osage, Ottawa, Peoria, Delaware Potawatomi, Sac and Fox, and Munsee lands, and they squatted on tribal lands until the government paid the tribes to go away and let the boot-strapping squatters stay on stolen land. This wasn't 200 years ago. This was from 145 years ago up until the 1930's, when the Indian Reorganization Act was passed and white people could no longer steal allotments and ignore their sins as Christians.

In this time, tribes like the Choctaw of Mississippi employ all people, regardless of race, at the factories operated on the Choctaw Reservation in Neshoba County, Mississippi. Tribes like the Kickapoo and Sac and Fox in Kansas provide jobs with benefits in areas in Kansas where the next best cash flow involves driving 100 miles round trip to Topeka, or dealing weed or meth. Tribes have diversified WAY BEYOND YOUR ITALICIZED OUTDATED STEREOTYPICAL COMMENTS. WE ARE NOT WHINING ABOUT BROKEN TREATIES.WE WORK DAY JOBS AND STILL HAVE THE ENERGY TO DEBATE UNEDUCATED PEOPLE WHO ASSUME ALL INDIANS LIVE IN WIGWAMS AND TRY TO STILL BREAK FEDERAL LAWS PROTECTING US FROM THE THEIVING EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS WHO GRIPE WHEN THEIR ROAD IS STOPPED FOR VIOLATING FEDERAL LAW. I WORK A FULL TIME JOB, DO WORK FOR TRIBES, AND ANOTHER FULL TIME JOB. YOUR STEREOTYPING IS A JOKE!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"it is disgusting looking and it doesn't smell real plesant either"

If that were such a problem, it's a wonder there aren't a lot more divorces. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

"They have taken a very anti-business attitude on many issues."

If your definition of "pro-business" is giving business anything and everything they ask for and letting everyone else pick up the tab, then this commission is very anti-business.

Godot 11 years, 10 months ago

Touschkahouma has made a clear statement that his opposition to the SLT is about revenge; revenge and anger that Europeans took land from the tribes, and made promises that were not kept.

Lawrence is a community that includes a minority of people who are related to the culprits, the ones who made those empty promises. None of actual culprits are alive today. A majority of people who live in and around Lawrence have no familial connection whatsoever to what went down back then. But we also have a community of people who are direct descendants of the poeple who were victimized.

Touschkahouma wants revenge for his ancestors, and he thinks he can achieve that by halting the progress of the SLT, even though that progress might even help "his" people today. If he and "his" people would participate, positively, and take advantage of a unique opportunity, the power that only they have, rather than squander their power on exacting revenge, they would find themselves in a position of financial power that would allow them the gain the upper hand.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Would any of you disagree that the natives were once immigrants to this land , just about 12000 years prior to the euros ?

gccs14r 11 years, 10 months ago

There is no traffic on 23rd. There is no traffic on 6th St. There isn't much on 31st St. Even on game days the traffic is localized, manageable, and brief. I don't know what you poor babies would do in a big ol' city that has real traffic.

observer25 11 years, 10 months ago

Wetlands are great. So let's build the SLT on the 32nd street alignment and then we will have a LOT MORE wetlands. (Won't it go from something like 400 to 720 acres of wetlands?) One would think that anybody who loves wetlands would jump at the chance to get MORE wetlands, so close to the city!

The SLT will save fuel and reduce emissions from vehicles because they will not be stopped at traffic lights on 23rd street. One would think that the environmentalists would be in favor of the SLT.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

Right, godot, since all screwing of Indians by the government and white people is theoretically a thing of the past, by that definition this couldn't possibly be a thing they should worry their little native heads about.

Suck it in, stiff upper lip and that sort of thing, because won't those 10 lanes of traffic running through the south end of campus and over unmarked graves be a modern wonder to behold?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"So it was transferred to Baker from HEW not BIA. Thus, the statute you keep citing is not in play."

I bet you'd do great running a pawn shop.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago


Title 25 chapter 7 sections 293a :

"The Secretary of the Interior,..." the BIA

"...or his authorized representative,..." In your source that would be the General Services Administration and/or Department of Health, Education and Welfare.

" authorized to convey to State or local governmental agencies or to local school authorities all the right, title, and interest of the United States in any land and improvements thereon and personal property used in connection therewith heretofore or hereafter used for Federal Indian school purposes and no longer needed for such purposes: Provided, That the consent of the beneficial owner shall be obtained before the conveyance of title to land held by the United States in trust for an individual Indian or Indian tribe:..."

Alright now, the big finish...

"...Provided further, That no more than fifty acres of land shall be transferred under the terms of this section in connection with any single school property conveyed to State or local governmental agencies or to local school authorities."

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

I found a source that said in 1958 the BIA assigned 573 acres of land to the Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife and that the State Biological Survey was given management authority, then ultimately transferred to Baker. That transfer would be illegal also. I wonder which is the truth?

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

Pilgrim, I am new to reading U.S. Code (laws) and trying to get a handle on everything involved.

ALL I will say at this point is... thanks for the debate.

I will be rereading and rereading...

Jeff Goodrick 11 years, 10 months ago

Hey, if you want my 53' tractor and trailer clogging up your main streets, then don't build a bypass. In order for me to get through lawrence to get to the East Hills or Intec industrial parks I have to drive down 6th to Iowa to 23rd or K 10 to Iowa to 23rd (the only truck routes in lawrence) 31th is not a truck route (locals only). I get 4 mpg in city an would be happy to park my 80,000 lb KW on top of a honda, that pulled out of Wendy's thinking I can stop on a dime. You know if I don't show up with that truck load of steel or pumps people get sent home from work without pay, and I just pass my costs on to the buyer. It takes me about 25 min. to get through lawrence.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Things change but remain the same , you could take the characters from this thread and put them back into 1855 and the exact dynamics are present today as they were back then. Marion the somewhat crazed trader coming to town covered in skins with the half domesticated wolves following in tow , the pilgrim , tshuckahoma (sic) the elder , merrill the local newspaperman , kinda nerdy but out there in the mix , the cowboy and kc war pony , I woudn't want him as an enemy. Have a great weekend all , cheers

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 10 months ago

"If by that you mean doing it legally, you're absolutely right."

Pilgrim as pawn operator:

"This isn't stolen, is it?"

Prospective Pawner:

"Of course not. I found it."


"Good enough for me."

"But at least, unlike you, I have a demonstrable skill."

And it never ceases to amaze me how shamelessly you demonstrate those skills here.

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Bozo, my definition of being anti-business is in making it very unattractive for businesses to want to move to Lawrence or to expand existing businesses already here. I agree that not everything a business wants is necessarily in the best interest of a community, but then again having no businesses here isn't in our best interest either.

At least one commissioner really showed his anti-business stance when he groused about the payscale for some of the jobs at a business that received approval for a tax abatement.

"City Commissioner Mike Rundle cast the lone vote against the abatement. He said he was disappointed that 72 of the jobs would have an average wage of $10.50 per hour, which is just slightly above the $10.06 per hour living wage that companies receiving abatements are mandated to pay."

The minimum pay for jobs being created is 5% above the mandated levels (not taking into account what other jobs will pay) and the commissioner wants to grouse.

Mike Ford 11 years, 10 months ago

Macon and Godot,

There are law firms that exist to this day who involved in speculating on tribal lands so that Kansas could become an Immigrant state instead of a tribal state. A descendant of one the primary speculators/thieves of tribal land was my High School government teacher. His family is still operating in politics and has a law firm in Topeka.

I don't hate white people. I despise dumb people who are short-sighted and who expect others to bow to their short-sightedness. It sucks that a majority of the people making dumb comments on this post are Causasian. I would simply like to see these people more educated in a broader more empirical basis, so that they didn't make the hateful comments towards a history they didn't feel compelled to learn. A long road is ahead on this pursuit for me with this endeavor, but I pursue it.

On godot's comments concerning vengeance. Maybe I am, or maybe I expect a Judeo-Christian government to uphold their promises. Oh, that's right, they don't have to be perfect, they're forgiven. Don't worry about the people they committed sins of greed towards with murder and pillaging, all kinds of people have and are be killed in the name of religion. As to Warpony's discussion with Pilgrim, the fact that it took so many agencies to "Launder" this land ot the point where Baker could get it speaks volumes of shadiness, as I've asserted. I've seen the laundry path that was established for Baker to acquire the land. IT'S SHADY! And finally, like the Pine Ridge Oglallah Lakota People, Haskell shouldn't take a payoff instead of land illegally taken. The Black Hills were illegally taken in 1874, and the HASKELL WETLANDS were illegally taken in the 1960's. Money doesn't fix theft!

conservative 11 years, 10 months ago

Tony88. The commissioner in question helped write the ordinance that requires any company wanting a tax abatement to pay at least 30% above living wage level. That level, based on the commission's own ordinance is 10.06 per hour.

And no, I do not currently work for 10.50 or less, but have in the past worked for wages that were lower. Didn't like it and did what was necessary to improve my situation. But while making that low amount of money I was able to buy a house and support myself and my wife.

kcwarpony 11 years, 10 months ago

I am finding what tuschkahouma said to be true about the shadiness of the land transfer. I can not find two sources that describe the transfers the same way. Add to the fact that I have e-mailed questions to Baker a couple a times and have not received any reply so far, about two months ago. Advantage of being a private school (?), no need to answer questions if they don't want to. I'm afraid my curiosity may well send me into the public records...

cowboy! What a script idea! You just gave me something fun to work on this weekend. Already got a couple of casting ideas. I'll let you know when I talk to Hollywood. Have a good one.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Kcpony your are absolutely right , while working all day I have been thinking of the comedic opportunities to poke fun at ourselves , cant be too serious all the time ! The 2006 battle of the wetlands , Marion shooting alligators out of cannons , the anti road folks that were supposed to back up Haskellites showing up too late cuz they took the "T" to the battle. Now I suppose it could be a drama but a comedy would be damn funny.

Charles L. Bloss, Jr. 11 years, 10 months ago

The best thing about their new plan, is more roundabouts, one every block. The speed limit will be like 30 mph, but with a roundabout every block, one could never even get close to 30 mph. Amazing, the ignorance and stupidity of our fine elected officials. Thank you, Lynn

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

.....while Marions idea of firing live gators into the native defense line was brilliant , he had not forseen them turning to wads of flesh from the huge powder charge he loaded , but the flying gator heads still scared the crap out of em , and it was much more effective than the first attempt with flying nutria , that ended up like a large biological paintball episode.

cowboy 11 years, 10 months ago

Do you remember the movie " The russians are coming " , with Alan Arkin , Jonathan Winters , Bring it to the screen KC Warpony. Maybe Ric Averill could write the play , but it would have to be non politically correct.

...the save the wetlands attack brigade while full of ample hostility and rage against the wetlands boys , became bogged down in the mud flat roundabouts and were quickly pummeled in crossfire with the newly improved salamander machine gun , lesson learned , birkenstocks and combat dont mix !In a stunning defeat they were seen sobbing while hugging trees , oh the horrors of war.

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