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Archive for Monday, May 15, 2006

Sebelius questions Bush use of Guard troops

May 15, 2006

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— Gov. Kathleen Sebelius today questioned President Bush's expected announcement tonight that he will call up thousands of National Guard troops to patrol the Mexican border.

"If you take that number of National Guard troops out of home commitments at a time where we're looking for tornados and hurricanes and other natural disasters, I really think that leaves states in a much more compromised situation," Sebelius said.

Bush, in a televised speech this evening, is expected to say he plans to use the troops to support the Border Patrol along the 2,000-mile boundary between the U.S. and Mexico.

Sebelius said she has not been contacted by the White House on the plan, and didn't know if the proposal meant the use of any Kansas guardsmen.

"I guess I can tune on the television and see what we're told about it tonight, but we have not had any contact about this mission whatsoever," she said.

Bush will speak at 7 p.m. All major networks plan to cover the speech live.

Comments

staff04 7 years, 11 months ago

Satchel- I think you should read my post at 3:40pm yesterday. Yes, there were still illegals crossing under Clinton. But facts are facts, my friend, and the DHS and DOJ (Administration appointments, mind you) say that under Bush, enforcement has been absolutely slammed. It isn't a coincidence.

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satchel 7 years, 11 months ago

It's ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!! IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!!! KATRINA, GLOBAL WARMING!! NOW IT IS HIS FAULT WE HAVE 12 MILLION ILLEGALS!!

Where were the liberals when Clinton was in office, and yes even Reagan?? ILLEGALS WERE COMING OVER BACK THEN TOO!!! 12 MILLION ILLEGALS DID NOT COME OVER DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. You all act as though this is his fault. You all are a bunch of brain washed twits.

He was totally BRILLIANT last night and Sebelius is another liberal idiot.. Maybe Sebelius hasn't been called yet for a good reason.. HAS ANYONE EVER THOUGHT OF THAT? WE DON'T KNOW WHY SHE HASN'T BEEN CALLED SO DON'T BUY INTO THE KOOLAID.

You all don't see what has been going on for the last 4 or more years. The Liberal media, the libs in congress and elsewhere, and the libs like Sheehan have totally lied about Bush, and you all like sheep obey and follow. MEMOGATE ring any bells?

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usaschools 7 years, 11 months ago

I am not a race-baiter simply because I point out what I see as quite obvious. This issue IS about race, whether any of us want it to be or not. You may not make your decisions about the issue based on race. I may not make my decisions on these issues based on race. That does not mean that race isn't in play; which it clearly is. Nothing could be more obvious than the FACT that race is playing a huge role in the national debate on these issues. To deny that is to oversimply complex issues.

It may be easier for some of you to think of this issue in terms of absolutes and right/wrong simplicity. Reality is not that simple.

A rude poster asked what I would do. Since I have actually spent years of my life living and working among illegal aliens in two different states and two different decades, I feel I have insignts into this issue that are based on firsthand knowledge. I don't know that I am right, and I don't claim any expertise in solving this type of problem. However, I have felt for 20+ years that there should be some legal means for workers from Mexico and Central America to enter this country for the purposes of working here, that they should receive a fair wage, and that they should pay taxes on the money they earn. It has been my experience that many people come here in desperation. I have personally known people who came here fleeing the violence of death squads in Nicaragua and El Salvador that was funded by our taxes. I have known personally people who came here because their children had terrible disabilities- people who were advised in Mexico to let their children die, but who chose to fight for a better life for their children. Much more often than not, the illegal immigrants I have known have been people that embody the values of the USA - much more so than some people who were just lucky enough to be born here and so think they are entitled to look down on others.

Race plays no role in this? Yeah, right, and the police are always your friend and the government never lies.

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rightthinker 7 years, 11 months ago

Cons. Man--Nothing can make the blood stir and cause certain capillaries to thump like a smoldering hot latina.......I wouldn't be upset one bit if every women looked just like Selma Hayek.

Imagine, a world with no liberals and every female was a Selma Hayek clone........John Lennon got the lyrics all wrong.

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

rightthinker, I'm sure there is an endangered animal that would prohibit the use of a nuclear device on Mexico city. Maybe?

Deporting the ten million "el chupa cabra" here in the US is our first priority. We need them to serve drinks and clean rooms in our new Yucatan province.

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rightthinker 7 years, 11 months ago

by xeno:

"Why can't we pressure Mexico to do more to control its border?"

I was thinking maybe we could drop an A-Bomb on Mexico City and then annex the Yucatan peninsula to the US and make all beaches along the Caribbean coast mandatory nude beaches.

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xenophonschild 7 years, 11 months ago

What are these digital ID cards that Bush mentioned in his TV speech earlier this evening?

How are they going to issue them to "guest workers"?

Will there be real, meaningful penalties for employers who hire/use "guest workers" who lack digital ID's?

The 12 million illegals already in the country: if they don't know who and where they are, how can they be made to pay a fine, learn English, and "go to the back of the line."?

Why can't we pressure Mexico to do more to control its border?

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small_fish_in_small_pond 7 years, 11 months ago

God help people like rightthinker that has been "brainwashed" by the Bush Administration, which when all is said and done, will be the worse administration ever in American history....

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rightthinker 7 years, 11 months ago

by iud69:

"& CUT THE FEDERAL BUDGET NOW where it does not relate to national defense!"

I hate to be the one to tell you this iud69, but this IS totally related to national defense, have you been in a coma?

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rhd99 7 years, 11 months ago

Just so we're clear, cut the federal budget that raises government executive salaries for people on the high end who produce NOTHING!

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rhd99 7 years, 11 months ago

BRAVO, Governor. Now, President Bush wants to do more with less National Guard troops? He needs to do more with less Rove & other bureaucrats, & CUT THE FEDERAL BUDGET NOW where it does not relate to national defense!

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

Badger Wrote: "I'm not so sure this has been very well thought out."

Badger, I agree, it is my contention that we slow down and figure out a solution, not a costly knee jerk reaction to the constant attacks on the President. I am no fan of illegal immigration but I am less a fan of more spending.

Respectfully, Conservativeman

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rightthinker 7 years, 11 months ago

This is a big, big problem.

Some of the posts I read above nearly made me slump over and cry all over my keyboard. I don't want to believe we have people who think this way in America, but sadly, we do. God help us all, really.

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

Instead of Kansas and Montana, lets say Chihuahua and Kansas. 1/hr vs 10/hr. Does that help you get your head around why people move?

You need to stop looking at things from an individual, anecdotal view and ask yourself, why would an illegal put him/herself through all sorts of to get ahead? Your very proud about cleaning toilets for $9.00/hr. Do you still make 9/hr? If so I hope you don't have a family. If you had been driven enough, maybe you could have broken the law and gotten 10 jobs at 9/hr, subcontracted for 2/hr and a burrito (no racism there eh?) and pocketed about 65/hr (less your burrito costs). Unless you come from a wealthy family and are slumming for some sort of social experiment, we all have had crappy 5.50/hr jobs. Try and keep your " I worked for minimum wage and walked to school uphill both ways in my day" talk to a minimum.

If you look at this thread, most of you seem to get that the problem is not the immigrants but the demand for cheap labor. This labor pool undercuts the prevailing wage and lower wages throughout because the...

EMPLOYERS WANTS THEM TO.

So once again. Enforce the laws, but understand that labor is a commodity that follows demand and demand wants it cheap and off the rolls. 12000000 people worth.

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

Why wouldn't I want a job that pays $30.00 hour? Even if I am breaking the law?

You need to stop looking at things from an individual, anecdotal view and ask yourself, why would an illegal put him/herself through all sorts of to get ahead? Some of you did by cleaning toilets for $9.00/hr. If you had been driven enough, maybe you could have broken the law and gotten 10 jobs at 9/hr, subcontracted for 2/hr and a burrito (no racism there eh?) and poceted about 65/hr (less your burrito costs)

If you look at this thread, most of you seem to get that the problem is not the immigrants but the demand for cheap labor. They undercut the prevailing wage and lower wages throughout because the...

EMPLOYER WANTS THEM TO.

So once again. Enforce the laws, but understand that labor is a commodity that follows demand and demand wants it cheap and off the rolls. 12000000 people worth.

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jimincountry 7 years, 11 months ago

Bush should ask governors to arrange for deputizing the minutemen instead of calling them vigilantes...........how does he say vigilante in spanish.....anything like coyote-ki.yo.tay' It's sad!

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badger 7 years, 11 months ago

I'm a little confused.

Are the governors going to be asking for the Guard to be deployed in their states? Is this an acute crisis requiring a Guard presence? How long will they be there? Is there an exit plan for El Paso?

What will happen if one of the governors fails to request the Guard presence? What will happen when hurricane season fires up again? Where will these Guardsmen live? Tents? Hotels? Permanent structures? Where will the money come from? The equipment, given that a lot of Guard equipment was sent to Iraq and never came back?

I'm not so sure this has been very well thought out.

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bankboy119 7 years, 11 months ago

BunE, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If enforcing the laws makes me racist then so be it, I'm racist.

Just because one law makes one group of people, whether it be based on sex, religion, skin color, etc, prosecuted more often than others does not automatically make it racist. Especially when the people we are talking about are not even citizens. They're illegal and do not have the right to be here. I don't care if their standard of living is worse down there; it's not my fault nor my problem. I don't care if it's better up here; wait in line.

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one_more_bob 7 years, 11 months ago

The 12th Cav is right there at Ft Hood, if memory serves me.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Oh, I thought it was because the guy at $5/hr will do the work that you won't do. You're just going elsewhere to work. What happens when you find you can't work b/c it's all illegal workers?

I've cleaned crap out of toilets for $9/hr, maybe I should have sub-contracted an illegal alien for $2/hr or maybe a promise of a burito.

Yea, it's undercutting the cost of work, but then, it sounds like SLAVE labor. But as stated before, it does not seem like the govt wants to put teeth into laws that already exist.

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

Oh and yes you can enforce the laws of the land thank you.

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

OK, if I have a job that pays 5 bucks an hour in Kansas and I find out about a job that pays 30.00/hour in Montana, I am gonna think about it. Especially if it pays cash. Even if I am on house arrest I am going to consider it. I take the chance to make life better for me and my family. Even if it is illegal.

You know, if you are loosing your job to an illegal, don't blame the illegal, blame the employer for deciding to hire someone illegally. If they can do the same job as you for 1/4 the cost, why wouldn't they? Make yourself so valuable that they can't replace you.

There is always going to be someone gunning for you.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

I can see the restrictions for the Guard now. 1) If you see illegal imigrants crossing, call the INS on their position.

2) If they confront you, do not attempt to defend yourself or touch them, they may sue or cry that their rights are being viloated by you being in their way.

3) Not authorized to cary ammunition, doing so implies that you are protecting something or are threatening poor defenseless Mexicans.

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staff04 7 years, 11 months ago

BTW, I do believe we should put the Guard on the border, but only as an emergency deployment. Any deployment needs to have a strict timetable and other milestones/stipulations that the Administration and Congress must meet to continue.

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Agnostick 7 years, 11 months ago

C-Man writes:


"Mexico has potential to be an economic powerhouse, it lacks leadership at every level. Mexico won't be fixed by us, only by themselves."


CORRECTAMUNDO!!! And as long as you welcome cheap Mexican labor across the border with open arms (not to mention tax-free pay, free health care at the local hospital emergency room, etc.), they won't stay at home and fix the problems in their own country. Why bother fixing the leaky roof, drafty windows, and faulty wiring in your own home if you can just waltz into the house next door and pitch a tent in your neighbor's living room, and help yourself to whatever's in their refrigerator?

And you're also CORRECTAMUNDO 'bout the leadership. Vicente Fox's domestic economic policy can be summed up in two words: "MOVE NORTH!"

The southern border needs securing--and the National Guard is the best way to do that at the moment.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

P.S. BunE: Good argument, but remember: Nobody is forcing these people at gunpoint to sneak across the border. If they choose to enter illegally, we have the right to "choose" to keep 'em out!

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staff04 7 years, 11 months ago

Hagar-

"Democrats are at their best on domestic issues."

First, I don't think our border problems are international problems, but I get your drift. Based on the rest of what you write, it seems that you are hinting that Democrats are not well equipped to handle this problem, so I thought I'd give you some facts from DHS and DOJ:

The number of those apprehended and detained at the border declined from an average of 1.52 million between FY1996 and FY2000, to 1.05 million between FY2001 and FY2004 a 31% decrease.

The number of illegal immigrants apprehended in the interior of the country (all states except Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and parts of California which are included in the border figures above), declined from an average of 40,193 between FY1996 to FY2000, to 25,901 between FY2001 and FY2004 a 36% decrease.

Actions against employers are down from a peak of close to 8,000 during the Clinton years, to an average of less than 2,200 in FY2003. In fact, in FY2004, the Justice Department obtained only 46 convictions for employer violations of immigration laws.

So, I think the point here is that, under this Administration, we have seen enforcement of immigration laws take a pretty big hit. Sorry, but that don't exactly hint at confidence...

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

BunE; So it's about race? Mexicans will do jobs that Americans won't do? Ask yourself, how long it will be before a Mexican is doing your job? It's an epidemic that must be stopped. I think re-activating the 12th Cav. is the best idea yet.

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

The last thing we need to do is set up a "marshall" plan for central america. The government of Mexico is so corrupt that any money sent will probably not make it to the people that could use the development. Mexico has potential to be an economic powerhouse, it lacks leadership at every level. Mexico won't be fixed by us, only by themselves. The only way we could fix mexico and the immigration problem is to annex mexico. But that would be a can of worms we best not open.

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hagar 7 years, 11 months ago

Again a Democrat Governor is challanging a Republican President on International policy. Democrats are at their best on domestic issues. Kathy, leave international policy to Washington and concentrate on getting more money for education!

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one_more_bob 7 years, 11 months ago

The 12th Cavalry regiment was formed in the early 20th Century to help secure the border with Mexico. Time for a sequel?

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

This is about race and class. How do we choose to use labor in America? So far we need 12 million people here to keep wages artificially low. Who do we use?

Well, we use the admittadly clumsy and artificial classifications of race to visualize certain individuals as worthy of certain jobs. You may not look at it that way from an individual point of view, ( you may say thinkgs like "my best friend is black...or mexican") but the instituional cultrual hegemony that exists in modern society cannot be ignored from the perspective of the entire issue.

12 million people, predominately of color and you say its not a question of race?

Hm.

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fletch 7 years, 11 months ago

It's funny, anytime we see another country massing their troops on the border of another country, it tends to mean that country is about to stage an invasion.

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bankboy119 7 years, 11 months ago

There goes the race card again. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with laws and immigration. It's not our job to make sure people in other countries are comfortable when we have problems at home. That's like saying I should be taking care of usaschools family while I can't support my own. That's BS.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

That's it, we need to have a national round up! $1000 for every illegal brought in to the INS. $5000 for every family turned over.

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BunE 7 years, 11 months ago

Sending soldiers? Building a wall? Nope, not a solution.

We need to look at what brings people here. Dollars We have asked for cheap lawn care and roofers on demand; 4.99 value meals and bricklayers @ $10.00/hr-cash. We certainly got what we wanted. Illegals don't want to leave home, they do however want to earn enough money to make life a little better for their families.

Instead of spending all of that cash fighting windmills, lets set up micro-loans and educational programs. Invest in Mexican infrastructure upgrades etc, a South American Marshall plan.

Notice how the immigration from Europe slowed as their standard of living was raised (in some places above ours!) 1945 was 61 years ago and look how far we have come.

This would be cheaper overall, more neighborly, would allow for American investment, most likely stave off a Venezuala-type governement in Mexico, and actually be a fix rather than some misguided band-aid.

Have the courage to look forward 5-50 years America.

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Arminius 7 years, 11 months ago

usaschools:

"It is a poor substitute for substative action on immigration. It is another example of Bush's poor skills as a leader."

What would you do, race-baiter?

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usaschools 7 years, 11 months ago

I agree with Paladin and WilburM. This is purely political posturing and has nothing to do with protecting our nation. It is just an attempt to appeal to the jingoistic (if not downright racist) tendencies of Bush's base in hopes of boosting his sagging approval ratings. It is a poor substitute for substative action on immigration. It is another example of Bush's poor skills as a leader.

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small_fish_in_small_pond 7 years, 11 months ago

W's policy is simple: What is the least I can do to make it look like I am doing something. In otherwords, I'll make it look like i am on the side of legal immigration. But you know he is in bed with big business.

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

Agnostick, Illegal aliens are allowed protections under US law, the basis being the constitution. They are allowed the protections accorded to due process.

The INS is responsible and should have the resources to stop illegal immigration. The Congress should pass laws that allow the INS easier methods to expell them. This may require a constitutional amendment. But to say it is a national emergency is hyperbole. If you look back on our history we at one time had so many german speaking immigrants that our national language could have easily been german, english or both. My point is that we have time and we should look into this problem with clear heads and a clear plan. Something I regret to admit neither party is capable of doing.

So unless the laws are changed President Bush is doing what he can.

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WilburM 7 years, 11 months ago

This is pure symbolism from a desperate President. We have no immigration policy, so we are going on a war footing. It won't work, it will be costly to the US and to Kansas, in a host of ways, and it will make immigration reform (which the Senate was actually making some progress on) all the more difficult.

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staff04 7 years, 11 months ago

So who has the RIGHT answer? Bush and the Republicans?

When Congress passed the Intelligence Reform Act in 2004, they mandated that an additional 2000 border patrol agents be added. Bush's budget this year requested funding for 210 agents.

It also mandated 8000 detention beds, and to date only 1800 have been funded.

To be quite honest, I pretty much expect this plan to be the same lip service we have gotten on this issue for the last 6 years.

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Agnostick 7 years, 11 months ago

C-Man, I understand that you and your conservative corporate brown-nosers need all the cheap slave labor they can handle... but compromising national security is no way of acquiring that slave labor.

Civilian law enforcement agencies have enough to worry about in their own counties and communities, without having to do the job of the federal government, as well. Unless the border communities are getting a significant chunk of DHS money to pay for all the extra manhours, equipment etc., let the local LEOs take care of their speeding tickets, DUI checks, and local crime issues. The NATIONAL border is an issue for the NATIONAL government... and NATIONAL TROOPS.

As nonimbyks pointed out, the illegal aliens escaping into our nation are not "citizens"; therefore, Posse Comitatus in no way applies to them, or any perceived "rights" you may wish to hand over to them on a silver platter.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Oh, we don't need a draft, we have the "back door draft" right now. Once you are in, you can't get out even if your contract is over.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Who's going to pay for it? Who the F pays for your roads? The same person(s) who will pay for the silly war in Iraq.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad 7 years, 11 months ago

I bet the guys who are charged with marketing the armed forces to our young men and women are all wishing they had made other career choices.

"Join up! Be promised opportunites. Get sent to one of the hottest places on earth. Blow up (or be blown up by) people who are so desperate, they will do anything."

How does one "promote" that?

Does Bush realize that if Iran sets off a nuke he'll be the first president in a quarter century to institute a draft? We are spread so thin right now. If we need more border patrols, then DO THAT. Fund the appropriate program rather than "call up" our troops.

Bush is going from dumb to dumber.

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staff04 7 years, 11 months ago

"I also say we should buil a 12ft stone fence with electrifies razor-wire on the top of it."

Who's going to pay for it? I don't think we need one, so I don't want to pay for it...

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Observer, Yea, I really don't need to keep my way of life.

Ummm... I bet you would hate me if I came and sat in your house demanding food, shelter and medical support, began legal action to kick you out of your house that's now mine, and stole your job! Mexican, Arab, Iraqi, Russian, I didn't pick who borders the US.

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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observer 7 years, 11 months ago

aren't the minutemen a hate group? They sure hate the mexicans.

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Arminius 7 years, 11 months ago

observer:

"some how the minutemen remind me too much of KKK. "

Somehow you remind me too much of an idiot. There is absolutely no basis to compare the Minutemen to the KKK, which, BTW, has historically been a hate group associated with the Democrat Party.

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observer 7 years, 11 months ago

some how the minutemen remind me too much of KKK. got to protect our way of life no matter who it hurts.

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Raider 7 years, 11 months ago

I say he should deputize the Minutemen! Let them guard the border legally. I also say we should buil a 12ft stone fence with electrifies razor-wire on the top of it.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Homeland Security TITLE 6 CHAPTER 1 SUBCHAPTER VIII Part H Sec. 466. Congress finds the following:

Nevertheless, by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President's obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection, or other serious emergency.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

Exactly agnostick, and the illegal alien situation is not about upholding citizen rights since they are not citizens but infact invaders into our homeland.

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Agnostick 7 years, 11 months ago

C-man, what's the point about "posse comitatus?" It's a Reconstructionist law that has no bearing whatsoever on this situation.


"During peacetime each state National Guard answers to the leadership in the 50 states, three territories and the District of Columbia. During national emergencies, however, the President reserves the right to mobilize the National Guard, putting them in federal duty status. While federalized, the units answer to the Combatant Commander of the theatre in which they are operating and, ultimately, to the President."

http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/protecting_our_world.asp


There is currently a gaping hole in our southern border. This "gaping hole" stretches from Brownsville, Texas, to the Pacific Coast. Millions of illegal aliens are streaming through this gaping hole; some of these people (thought admittedly, not all) are criminals above and beyond the act of illegally entering our nation. I'm talking about drug trafficking, gang warfare, and more.

If this doesn't qualify as a "national emergency," then please enlighten us as to what does qualify...??

Might wanna loosen or tighten the bolts holding your tinfoil hat in place, C-Man... depening on how much paranoia you choose to run rampant with.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

I'm not too sure about the Posse Comitatus Act would solve this issue either. The border is a national boundary; the purpose of a standing army is inherently for defense of the nation state and it's territory. The borders will never be secure until a military presence can be established and becomes a real deterrent to any invading force. Right now we have invasion w/o force and the US government has no protective measures to stop it and nobody willing to face the facts and take invasion by another nation state seriously.

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Shardwurm 7 years, 11 months ago

The Guard is governed by Posse Comitatus just like Active Duty. As Paladin mentions, using them in support roles is fine.

For years Kansas has used its Guard to watch pot fields. When the culprits show up they call the KBI or local police (who know they're there) and they come and arrest them.

Same concept here.

I agree with DaREEKKU - the well is drying up. Almost all Reserve and Guard have been committed to a deployment somewhere. Right now there are three types of Guard/Reserve: Deployed, Just Returned, and Getting Ready to Deploy.

It's only going to get worse as many of them have had enough of multiple rotations and the second-class status they enjoy while on Active Duty.

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nonimbyks 7 years, 11 months ago

12 million and growning too late! I'd rather be here at home mobilized for TWO years or longer in the US guarding the borders than doing the BS I did with my company for 12 months in Iraq/Kuwait this past year.

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paladin 7 years, 11 months ago

I believe, the intention is to use Guard troops in support roles, not to actually patrol the border. They already have been doing that. So, nothing is really going to be done any differently than what has been done. This is simply a political gimmick to help push through the "guest worker" plan, an appeasement, not a substantive or meaningful new tactical action.

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conservativeman 7 years, 11 months ago

Posse comitatus act! The President is using guard troops because the law applies differently to them as opposed to Active duty troops which are hamstrung by the law. There really isn't another course of action he can take. It is however 12 million illegals too late.

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DaREEKKU 7 years, 11 months ago

And where exactly does Bush plan on getting these guards? Were they the same guards that responded to Katrina? The same ones that we keep here at home for other natural disasters? Oh wait...he sent them all overseas....Bush needs to relearn Math.

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