Israelis back fight for survival / LJWorld.com

Archive for Friday, July 28, 2006

By Michael B. Oren - Special to the Los Angeles Times

July 28, 2006

In 1982, following the massacre of 800 Palestinian civilians in Beirut, Lebanon, about 500,000 Israelis took to the streets.

Although the Palestinians had been killed by a Christian militia and not by Israeli troops, the demonstrators demanded the ouster of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, who had sent the militiamen into the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps.

The protesters also were furious about a war that was intended not, as the government originally claimed, to defend northern Israel from Palestinian rockets but to alter the balance of power in Lebanon, a goal they considered optional. As a result of the rally, Sharon was forced to resign.

Twenty-four years later, the Israel Defense Forces are back in Lebanon, occupying swaths of the south and bombing Beirut. Hundreds of Lebanese civilians have been killed - by Israelis, not by their proxies - and immense damage caused. Much of the world and the media are as critical of Israel's conduct in this war as they were in the previous one, insisting that the Israeli attacks have been "disproportionate."

Israelis support action

Yet, in contrast to 1982, Israelis today are overwhelmingly supporting their army's actions. And apart from expressing regret over the loss of civilian lives, they show no sign of wavering. Israeli flags and banners proclaiming "Be of Strength and Courage!" (a biblical quote) literally line the streets.

Why? What makes this Lebanon war different from the last one?

To begin with, Israelis, too, are under fire this time. During the last few weeks, Hezbollah has shot more than 2,500 rockets and mortars at Israel, killing at least 17 civilians, wounding 500 and forcing more than half a million people to flee. The attacks from Lebanon coincided with aggression from Gaza, where Hamas terrorists fired about 1,000 Kassam rockets at Israeli towns and farms.

On both fronts, Israeli soldiers were the victims of unprovoked ambushes and kidnappings. And these attacks have come despite the fact that Israel is no longer occupying any part of Lebanon or Gaza. The war, Israelis now know, is not about borders but about the existence of the Jewish state.

Israelis also know that Hezbollah cares nothing about civilian casualties on either side. On the contrary, Hezbollah wants Israel to cause the maximum amount of collateral damage among Lebanese in order to expose Israel to international condemnation. That's why Hezbollah missile launchers are routinely deployed in civilian neighborhoods.

As a rule, Israeli forces warn Lebanese civilians to leave the battle areas, but eventually they have no option but to destroy these structures or risk losing more Israeli lives to the rockets fired at them. The Israeli air force also must knock out the roads, runways and bridges that Hezbollah uses to replenish its arsenal.

Saving Lebanon

More pressing than the need to defend Israel's heartland, however, is the need to protect Lebanon from Syria and Iran. Counterintuitive though it sounds, Israelis understand that the only way to save Lebanon is by bombing it.

After languishing for years under Syrian occupation, Lebanon has been hijacked by the Syrian-supplied and Iranian-directed Hezbollah. The Lebanese government and army are powerless to control this force, much less disarm it. Hezbollah's burgeoning power not only permits Syria to continue its occupation of the country but, more perilously, it enables Iran to realize its dream of establishing an unbroken arc of Shiite militancy from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf.

An Iranian takeover of Lebanon not only threatens Israel's security but also that of moderate Sunni states throughout the region, and it endangers Europeans and Americans.

A line in the sand

In mounting its counteroffensive against Hamas and Hezbollah, Israel is drawing a line in the sand against the Iranian leaders who have sworn to wipe it off the map and who, for that purpose, are developing nuclear power.

Israel's purpose is not retribution but survival.

In 1982, Israel's objective was to install a pro-Israeli government in Beirut. But its goal today is to prevent Lebanon from becoming a fully armed outpost of Iran.

Needed to help accomplish that is a robust international force to secure Lebanon's borders from all foreign encroachments, disarm all illegal militias and establish the sovereignty of the democratically elected government in Beirut.

Sharon, who eventually returned to politics and became the first Israeli prime minister to recognize the Palestinians' right to statehood and to uproot Israeli settlements, now lies in a coma. He leaves behind a legacy of one Lebanon war that most Israelis opposed - but also a sense of sobriety and resolve that has persuaded Israelis to support this Lebanon war and steeled their determination to win.

- Michael Oren, a senior fellow at the Shalem Center in Jerusalem, is a reserve officer currently serving in northern Israel.

Discussion

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28 July 2006
at 6:34 a.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

Israel stole most of the land which comprises their “nation” from Palestinians during and after the 1948 war; there will be no peace in the Middle East until the land is returned and Israel ceases to exist.

The truth is sometimes hard, but it is truth nonetheless.
28 July 2006
at 7:01 a.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

NO it is NOT the truth. Just because you post it over and over does NOT make that true. The land was all given back to the 1967 UN and Middle east agreement.

Get over it Xeno!
28 July 2006
at 8:11 a.m.

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leehayes (Anonymous) says…

are you serious???!?!?!? “On both fronts, Israeli soldiers were the victims of unprovoked ambushes and kidnappings. And these attacks have come despite the fact that Israel is no longer occupying any part of Lebanon or Gaza. The war, Israelis now know, is not about borders but about the existence of the Jewish state.” this is stone cold laughable!!!!
israel as victims? guess what ? not he only ones now! - the international community ain't buying it. Israel, like it's neighbors, stand in defiance of many un resolutions - each side picks and chooses which ones it wants to defends. the ONLY thing that makes sense in your statements above is this ” The war, Israelis now know, is not about borders but about the existence of the Jewish state.” it has ALWAYS been about the state of legitimacy: Israel vs Palestine.
It is not surprising that many, writing about the formation of the Israeli state, never site groups like IRGUN (initially known as Hagana Bet,) or LEHI (also known as the Stern Gang) who fought extreme and active terrorist bombing campaigns against the British occupation of Palestine at the time. In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish Immigrants and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status. AND what happened then? The 1948 Arab-Israeli war which in large part is still seething today. The fact remains - no matter how anyone spins it, no matter what UN resolutions are passed, Jews and Arabs are like Oil and Water. It will take a mindful and diligent International police action - on all borders to keep them separated while the UN sits with all parties and enforces ALL resolutions that have been ignored by ALL parties for the past 50+ years. If Israeli truly wants PEACE, they must allow this to happen in the occupied territories as well. Additionally, Israel must be forced to admit and allow UN Nuclear weapons inspectors into their arsenal. They must come to the table without AIPAC and the collusion of the US NeoCon agenda.
The civilian population of all states involved are being killed. The PEACE is obtainable only thru negotiations, not thru occupation, terrorism by resistance, or state approved.
But the main question who will be left standing and at what price? I know there are MANY Israeli's who truely want peace. WHere are they? where are the Americans in opposition to the NeoCon Agenda? Speak up NOW!
28 July 2006
at 8:12 a.m.

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David_Williams (Anonymous) says…

Being of the same age, roughly, of the Israeli State, I recall through my years the wars, attacks, resentment, envy, and hatred directed at the Israelis, much of such wrath being from Western, not Arab, sources, including not a few in the UK and US. The general thrust of this article is undoubtedly correct. Israel continues to fight for survival against implacable enemies. Those who disagree should take time out to reflect on their own prejudices and ask themselves why they hate the Jews so much. Iranian and Syrian involvement is of substantial concern. Be in no doubt of the parallels with the rise of Nazism in the 1920's and 1930's.
28 July 2006
at 8:22 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

This article is a mere piece of subjective approach towards the conflict. Blaming Hizbollah for every misdeed of Israelites.

I want to ask the writer and all its admirers why Israel is targetting civilian installations in Beirut. Hizbollah is concentrated in the south why it doesnt bomb just the south? Why did they hit UN post despite repetative stopping signals? was it just a mistake?

From Hizbollah the missile only fell into the “illegal territory” after Israeli “ambushes” in Beirut.

It is worth noticing that in the concluding part the writer deem the Hizbollah as illegal militia. Hizbollah is not at all illegal. Hizbollah was made to oust the illegal occupation of Israelis from Lebonon. And presently it has a good number of Labonese mandate.

If Hizbollah is illigal than what do you call Irgun whose motive was to usurp land from locals of Palestine. And after the creation of the “Illegal State” they(Istaraelis) made Irgun's leader Menachem Begin, the Prime Minister of the “Illegal State” .
28 July 2006
at 8:39 a.m.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

I appreciate the article. I've been asking “where are these rockets coming from?” 2500 rockets (not IEDs) is something that only a military force can acquire. These terrorists are clearly more than just an organized para-military force, they are being supplied in a completely different way than al-Quada. This is a terrorist ARMY, not just some guys with some anger, C-4 and assualt rifles. Syria is lucky that they aren't being bombed… by G.W. Bush. Hezbollah is being supported by a STATE, not just nameless, faceless oil princes. Syria is stepping over the line from being “terror friendly” to actually facilitating terrorism. DIRECT support and supply. That's serious business, and completely different from what, say, IRAQ was doing when we attacked them.

Someone remind me again… why did we attack Iraq, and what were we planning to do about Syria?

I'll also say this: the presidential candidate who makes the most noise about energy independence and making ethanol a mainstream fuel will get my vote. Period. We HAVE to get our hands out of the middle east.
28 July 2006
at 8:49 a.m.

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powershopper (Anonymous) says…

xeno - Israel occupied the land, they did not steal it.

lee - Israel's current operations in Lebanon is in retaliation for an invasion of their sovereignty , and subsequent detainment of a member of the IDF. Also, your thoughts may be a bit more credible if you have the correct dates. It was the UN partition plan of 1948, not 1947. Before defending Hezbolla, keep in mind they use civilians as human shields for their terrorist operations.

Yousuf - Very compelling argument, yet subjective. How do you feel about suicide bombers, terrorism, and martyrdom?

28 July 2006
at 9:03 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

xeno you really need to chill with the complete hate it is not good for you They have the right to be where they are. You are really show traits of a certain org. here in the us that where sheets you know that.
28 July 2006
at 9:07 a.m.

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Todd (Anonymous) says…

Israel used military force to expand/define its borders. What states haven't done that? (or had it done for them)

Come on, what would the world prefer: a peaceful Israel where the Palestinians were exterminated 50 years ago or a messed up Israel with constant fighting and bickering?
28 July 2006
at 9:21 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

cman getting scary we are agreeing alot but hey works for me.
28 July 2006
at 9:22 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

powershopper- What do you want out of a man whose everything has been “purposefully” destroyed…shelter has been usurped by the settlers, whose dearest ones have been brutaly killed or in the Israeli Jail (Another-Guantanamobay) without any legal grounds…Suicide bombings or bunch of flowers?

You said, “Before defending Hezbolla, keep in mind they use civilians as human shields for their terrorist operations.” No weight in this blame!! If they are using human sheilds then they are every where in the lebonon…Even in the UN post thats why IDF bombarded UN facility. True?

over to you Mr. Powershopper or to other Israeli Sympathetic
28 July 2006
at 9:42 a.m.

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leehayes (Anonymous) says…

HEY - check your own , a quick google un partition plan israel will give 1947 - which led to the Arab-Israeli war of 1948.

and by the the way -prior to the capture of IDF soldiers- what has Israeli IDF forces been doing systemically in Gaza for the previoust 2 weeks?
Enough of this finger pointing - everyone on BOTH sides needs to come to the table and address the mutliple un resolutions passed. Lets get the ARMS out of the mid east. if Israel gets arms from the US - why is so Unconscionable for their enemies to get arms any way they can? it;s not and for this reason - US should stop arming Israel, leave the NeoCon agenda at the dump and let negotiations begin. All voices of humanity must speak out against the aggression of wars.
28 July 2006
at 9:55 a.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

“..the NeoCon agenda…”

Please explain to me what that is and what clarify what you mean by “neoCon”. Those terms are thrown around way too much and people don't know what they mean.
28 July 2006
at 9:59 a.m.

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leehayes (Anonymous) says…

I'd like to add, that your assumption that i am a supporter of Hezbollah is a classic AIPAC switch and bait argument. Nothing i have written claims support for this NEW war. But to respond, No I don't support Hezbllah, But i do recognize the roots of it's exsistance belong in 1982. I am neither in support of Israeli aggression velied as defense, yet i acknowledge that there is a right to exsist. Lastly, again, the US government's determined interference with it's arms trades and economic agenda for the Mid East under the thin guise of Democracy has been fueling the riff instad of bringing the table to the front. I am appealing for recognition and accountability on all fronts, and a serious adjustment in the minds of everyone everywhere to address the root issues to solve very complex problems that are resulting in the death of civilians every where. War will not work. Only negotiations will.
28 July 2006
at 10:03 a.m.

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leehayes (Anonymous) says…

neo con - neo conservatism
heres a quick link
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

for The Project for the New American Century.

28 July 2006
at 10:13 a.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Fine but What is a “neoCon”? What exactly IS Noe Conservatism? I KNOW what Conservatism is (bet you don't by the content of your posts), what is the “Neo” part.
28 July 2006
at 10:17 a.m.

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leehayes (Anonymous) says…

Here is a map of the UN 1947 Partition Plan.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/j…

here is what Israel looks like today:
http://www.appliedlanguage.com/maps_o…
28 July 2006
at 10:32 a.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

Ahhh, the new antisemites. Lawrence moral relativists, take note, now's the time to join the Islamofascists and facilitiate your own assimilation into Sharia!!

A former Canadian general has noted that before the UN observers were killed by IDF fire, they had reported that the IDF was firing near their position out of “tactical necessity.” In other words, the Hezbos were using the UN post as a shield. It is a tribute to modern munitions that so few Lebanese have been killed in this war. Unfortunately, you have the Hezbos to blame for nesting near the Lebanese people who they clearly don't care about.

Yousuf??? There are no Israeli settlers (all caps for no reason) in Lebanon. WTF are you talking about? Hezbos attack Israel because they are bitter over getting their a$$es handed to them every time actual war breaks out. Hezbos are just an outlet for Iranian frustration over their diminishing grasp on control of their region. So, go ahead and defend the Iranians. Here's a fun article on the grotesquesly sick, dieing culture of your beloved child raping Iranians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes…
28 July 2006
at 10:47 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

for some reason I can not post on the world war has already begun article today but I see xeno has been on there as well saying the same old thing he/she has been posting in here.
28 July 2006
at 11 a.m.

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powershopper (Anonymous) says…

Lee - conceived in 1947, excercised in 1948. This why it is typically referred to as the UN Partition plan of 1948 (1947)*.

As for your thoughts on embargos veiled in the democratic process, do you want modern military arms in the hands of fundamental Islamic terrorist hell bent on the destruction of Israel, The United States, and our way of life. What should we do, allow them to have access to stinger missiles, chemical/biological weapons, and even worse, Nuclear weapons? The major difference, Lee, is policy. The Western world refers to civilians killed in combat as collateral damage. Israel, the US and other western countries do their best to give civilians the option of evacuating. This is usually done with radio broadcasts, airdropped flyers, and even phone calls. Hezbolla, amongst other terrorist organizations, get on to buses with men, women, and children and blow them up with no prior warning. The distinction is usually called Terrorism vs. modern warfare. The major difference being that modern warfares rules are dictated by the Geneva convention. War, in political conflict, is typically unavoidable. As is collateral damage. Lives are ultimately lost; property destroyed.

The major difference, however, is how the goals are achieved. The western world fights war to end conflict, come to a resolution, and ultimately better lives. Terrorists, sole objective is to destroy lives through barbarism until the infidel is exterminated. Fundamental Islmacism will not stop until ever man, woman, and child on Earth is f*cking the football.

Though I am not a huge fan of George W. One of the more intelligible things he has said while in office is “you are either with us, or with them”. In this particular case, he couldn't have been more right.
28 July 2006
at 11:03 a.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

Lee, what you ignore is that Irael didn't just invade East Jerusalem and the lands in the north. Israel was invaded and repelled the invaders. They maintain the those new borders as a buffer against the crazies firing rockets at them. It doesn't make much sense to share control of Jerusalem with someone who is trying to invade. When Syria and Jordan (and Egypt, if they hadn't been so inept) invaded Israel and violated Israeli borders in 1967, they pretty much lost their claim on the original territory — as often happens in unprovoked war.

As has been stated previously, those who support the Arab claims on Israeli land should examine why they tacitly advocate the death of Jews, and the arming of terrorists who are opposed to Israel. Anti-semitism runs deep in this country, and it's not surprising that the left has vestiges of the Jew-phobia of our nation's past.
28 July 2006
at 11:05 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Dear Canadian Passport….I used the term settelers for humanbeings(?) illegaly living on Palestinian territory.

You said, “Hezbos are just an outlet for Iranian frustration over their diminishing grasp on control of their region.” I said, “Israel is just an outlet for American frustration over their diminished grasp on control of Iran(ref to: Islamic Revolution in Iran by Iranians not from outside Iran!!).”

BTW: The words(..like this > a$$es) you are using gives all of the civilised world a notion that you are uncivilised or from some Uncivilised Society.
28 July 2006
at 11:06 a.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

I think executing 16 year old girls because they are rape victims is uncivilized, but okay.

28 July 2006
at 11:12 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

16 year old girl”s”>>>>You have exaggerated.
28 July 2006
at 11:13 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

always gets off track.
28 July 2006
at 11:13 a.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

Yousuf, buddy, America supports Israel because, if we didn't, the Islamofascists would destroy it, burn everyone living there, and most likely enslave any survivors.

I'm still confused as to why the Hezbos would care about settlers? They operate out of Lebanon. Settlers LIVED in Palestine. Since Iran does nothing to support Palestine, I'm confused as to why you are using the issue of former Israeli settlers to justify the murdering Israelis by Hezbo terrorists. Such is the nature of terrorism though, the ends justify the means. The only good jew is a dead jew, right Yousuf!!
28 July 2006
at 11:20 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

“we all live in a insane world”
28 July 2006
at 11:22 a.m.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

Forgive my arrogance, but I think I can sum this all up in two statements:

1) There are NO heros in this, and everyone has become both victim and perpetrator in this conflict. They are all lovers of hate, on both sides. For this reason, this will NEVER end: they are both working as hard as they can to raise up another generation of hateful young men. When the hate is no longer embraced, this will get better, but since it doesn't appear that peace is valued by either culture, this continues, ad nauseum.

2) No one owns the Holy Land. It was taken from the Canaanites by genocide and occupied by the Isrealites. It has changed hands so many times, no one can count. So, if you can dig up a Canaanite somewhere in a Jerusalem coffee shop, give the WHOLE thing over to him and kick everyone else OUT. Otherwise, everyone there is a squatter.
28 July 2006
at 11:32 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Pal Canady, Ok, for a minute take this hypothesis true that if America didn't the Islamofascists would destroy israel.
And tell me why did America strongly supported isral's creation?
28 July 2006
at 11:34 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

now tell me were we even around during their creation?
28 July 2006
at 11:35 a.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

or did you mean modern creation?

28 July 2006
at 11:58 a.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Dear mommaeffortx2 and all, check out the interesting chronology here http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/p…
Worth reading!! the story of getting control of Middle East the oil rich region….
The following date(in the above mentioned link) is my answer for your query>”October 4, 1946: On the eve of Yom Kippur, President Truman issues a statement indicating United States support for the creation of a “viable Jewish state.”“
28 July 2006
at 11:58 a.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

If one doesn't believe that the Israelis have a claim to any land in the middle east, then there's not much ground for discussion here. America supported the creation of Israel for a variety of reasons. I'm sure some would argue that it was to fulfill biblical prophecy, and some would argue that it was a counterbalance to communist forces in the mideast. But, the honest answer probably has more to do with there being a bunch of Jewish refugees from the nonexistant holocaust who needed a place to go and wanted to go to their homeland. For some reason, they didn't want to stay in Germany. Must have been the nonexistant holocaust.
28 July 2006
at 12:06 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

mommaeffortx2:

I hold no malice for Jews; I simply do not believe it to be in the best interests of the United States to support Israel. It is a nation founded on thievery, kept afloat by American support and money, and serves only to antagonize Muslims - who have oil.

Let Israel disband and the Jews come here. They would be a welcome addition - much better educated and more attuned to traditional Western values than what has been pouring across our borders for the last quarter century.

You inference to the sheet-wearing pukes was a vile insult. They are coward dogs. If you hate somebody, kill them. Don't wear a sheet or march in parades carrying signs.
28 July 2006
at 12:10 p.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Dear CanadianPas…, Why America didnt gave them a state of their own…they could probably give alaska to the Jewish Refugees to live. Why a place in MidEast?
28 July 2006
at 12:13 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

“I think executing 16 year old girls because they are rape victims is uncivilized, but okay.”

They are called “honor killings”, if the person does not carry out the “honor sucicide”.

What does this Islamic fundamentalism have to do so much with killing and sucicide?

As for the “Necon” definition I am still waiting!

The herat of the matter directly stated. Civilizatin are judged opn how they treat non-combatants. If the US or Isreal accidentally hits the UN or civilians it is a “war Crime” or “intentional targeting of civilians”, which it clearly is NOT.

However, Send in some non guided rockets and sucicide bombers on a civilian population or fly Jets into “civilian buildings, HEZBO's, Al Quaida the and Islamic facists are called Freedom fighters, and NOT terrorists. That fine and major distinction is NOT made or realized by those defending Hamas, Al Quaida, Hizbullah, ad naseaum. That Fine and Major distinction is NOT made by those who berate Isreal and the United States for Opposing these uncivilized and uncaring people. YOU are the Problem, not supporters of Isreal and the US.

“The major difference, Lee, is policy. The Western world refers to civilians killed in combat as collateral damage. Israel, the US and other western countries do their best to give civilians the option of evacuating. This is usually done with radio broadcasts, airdropped flyers, and even phone calls. Hezbolla, amongst other terrorist organizations, get on to buses with men, women, and children and blow them up with no prior warning.”

This Guy gets IT! THose of you who do not agree and not getting IT, ie not enlightned, and NOT intelligent, and NOT rational. Your decision is suspecy. IT usually comes from a blind alliegeance to a POlitical Agenda or thought process with no vision or concept of the future!

” The distinction is usually called Terrorism vs. modern warfare. ”
28 July 2006
at 12:18 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Xeno…wrong…again!

“I hold no malice for Jews; I simply do not believe it to be in the best interests of the United States to support Israel. It is a nation founded on thievery, kept afloat by American support and money, and serves only to antagonize Muslims - who have oil”

The US has to give Isreal Money, the UN does not finance or help Isreal for it's “humanitarian problem”. That's right, Isreal herself built bomb shelters. The Hizbullah? They bought rockets, and when their civilians get creamed for their misdeeds and using them as “human shield”, they cry to the UN and the UN cries about the “Humanitarian Crisis”! What a bunch of POO!!!

I will concede all UN issues to you IF. Isreal gets paid the same amount of MONEY form the f..in un that has been given to all the terrorists groups, to buy bombs to use on Isreal.

THEN and ONly then, will the US stop funding Isreal.

That is right, pariety in the UN. Bolton rules!!! and the Dems ought to confirm him. He is the right man at the right time in the right job, period.
28 July 2006
at 12:22 p.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

Yousuf, if we would have put the Jews in Alaska, there is no way Hezbo rockets could reach them, and then Hamas bombers would have to fly all the way there to blow up coffee shops. How could the muslims be expected to eradicate the world of Jews if we put them so far away from them???
28 July 2006
at 12:25 p.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Asbestos:You said, “Israel, the US and other western countries do their best to give civilians the option of evacuating. This is usually done with radio broadcasts, airdropped flyers, and even phone calls. Hezbolla, amongst other terrorist organizations, get on to buses with men, women, and children and blow them up with no prior warning.”

Kindly, Refer to us atleast one instance when Israel pre-alert the civilians in Beirut before targetting them?
400 deaths (“collateral damage”) alone in Beirut(even more than that!)!

28 July 2006
at 12:31 p.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

The Israeli warnings are well documented. You see, they don't like to kill women and children on purpose. It's not their battle strategy, unlike some othe groups.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21072006/325…

http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/07/22/…

I'd love to hear Yousuf's explanation for why targetting civilians is justified.
28 July 2006
at 12:35 p.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Canady…
You mean to say that the motive of creation of israel was that the creators didnt want to see a peaceful mid-east. and they succeded in their plan!! The game of fire and blood was started in the mideast and still continues… Right?
28 July 2006
at 12:39 p.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

I didn't say anything remotely like that. I think you were reading the Hezbollah training manual.

Israel was never meant to destabilize the mideast. It was about refugees returning to their historic homeland.
28 July 2006
at 12:39 p.m.

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Yousuf (Anonymous) says…

Canady…mate…thats why i wrote Beirut…the links you are referring is saying about southern lebonon….beirut has the lion's share of COLLateral damage!
28 July 2006
at 12:41 p.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

Yousuf, tell me that Hezbollah doesn't want Lebanese civilian casualties. Say that out loud with a straight face.
28 July 2006
at 12:52 p.m.

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CanadianPassport (Anonymous) says…

I just want to know why it's okay to target Israeli civilians. It's easy to distinguish IDF from Israeli civilians. Shockingly, it's harder to distinguish Hezbos from your average Joe or Muhammed. Everyone knows that if Israel is targeting a civilian vehicle or building, it's because Hezbos are hiding weapons in trucks, ambulances, mosques, houses, etc. It is their strategy to bait the Israelis into attacking the terrorists while they are in close proximity to civilian targets. Every educated person knows this. It's a big joke to Hezbos when Lebanese civilians die, because it's part of their strategy. But it's a very transparent strategy to gain sympathy.
28 July 2006
at 12:58 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

and round and round we go we we end no one knows.
28 July 2006
at 1:12 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

I just read that lebonon has refused help from jorden who has set up a mobile hosp. to help with the injured because they did not step up and condem isreal. Just kind of struck me as conter productive for the victims.
Aslo you all do relize there is no solution and this battle will continue for longer than we will be around?

28 July 2006
at 1:17 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

“Why America didnt gave them a state of their own…they could probably give alaska to the Jewish Refugees to live. Why a place in MidEast?”

Jewish Refugees?
28 July 2006
at 1:24 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

why is it that most people seem to think the Isrealies immigrated to the middle east? It is their birth place as well they just happened to be born to servitude and slavery.
28 July 2006
at 1:27 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

now pilgram egypt is tech. in africa as you well know..
28 July 2006
at 1:36 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

comes darn close does it not? bty just joking with you
28 July 2006
at 1:49 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

really pilgram was not controdicting any thing you said just having fun
28 July 2006
at 2:07 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

ha ha ha ha thanks I will keep that in mind. And try to spell better.
28 July 2006
at 3:30 p.m.

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rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…

Frickin crazy monotheistic desert religions man…….I wonder if your god (you all share the same one) has to cordon off the afterlife with buffer zones and dmz's…….I swear, if it was not my distaste for ritual I would become a barley worshipping polytheist right now.
On a side note, i love it when we the west is called “crusaders”…..the army should use it in their recruiting ads….have a commercial of a knight in full suit of maile with a sugar loaf helm,kite shield and spear, riding into a medeivil town…..Computer morph him into a marine riding the turret of a tank through the same town except there are coca-cola and t mobile billboards on the walls , all the while blaring some iron maiden for background music……there aint no off switch on this genius machine baby!
28 July 2006
at 3:37 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

“(you all share the same one)”

Incorrect.

28 July 2006
at 3:43 p.m.

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Lepanto1571 (Anonymous) says…

Buddha, worshipping barley (even as a polytheist) can be hazardous due to hangover. :)

Profound genius on the marketing idea. Of course, some sensitive greasy hair with pencil arms will cry about how the Marines are so barbaric or some such mindless pooh.

Good one!
28 July 2006
at 3:48 p.m.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

There are a LOT of easy parallels that can be drawn between our current policies and the crusades. That's one aspect of Muslim culture that most westerners do not “get”: they are still really, really mad about the crusades. We think of it as ancient history, and the actions of a bunch of misguided English dudes, but for them it's a fresh wound and quite relevant to what is happening today. We need to do all we can to create policies that allow us to be less “hands on” in middle east affairs if we ever want the muslim world to lighten up on the “infidel” talk.
28 July 2006
at 3:58 p.m.

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Lepanto1571 (Anonymous) says…

old:

“There are a LOT of easy parallels that can be drawn between our current policies and the crusades.”

Please feel free to expound.

“English dudes?” Well, instead of correcting it, I'll just say that you're probably right due to the anemic understanding of history today.
28 July 2006
at 4:05 p.m.

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powershopper (Anonymous) says…

Old - we are infidels because we indulge, adulterate, view women as equals, excercise free speech, and promote the progressiveness of human-kind. Fudamental islamics hate the fact we don't apologize for the way we live nor adhere to THEIR standards dictated by the edict of the Quran.
28 July 2006
at 4:06 p.m.

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rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…

75…..How can you argue this? judaeism, christianity, Muslim…..that is the order it happened…..They all share the old testament,hence the same concept of a all powerful and ever present god who created the universe……If you take offense at this, turn the other cheek.
28 July 2006
at 4:08 p.m.

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powershopper (Anonymous) says…

……If you take offense at this, turn the other cheek.

rednek - Only if he is a Christian ;)
28 July 2006
at 4:09 p.m.

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rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…

Actually they used to call us “FRANKS”…. As in the Frankish (french) …..And we generally called them moors….Good ol stereo types have been around a long time.
28 July 2006
at 4:11 p.m.

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powershopper (Anonymous) says…

weren't moors from N. Africa?

28 July 2006
at 4:18 p.m.

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rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…

Yep….but since they occupied spain for awhile that became the generic term for all muslim people of darker than beige skin.
28 July 2006
at 4:19 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

wow go away for alittle bit and things really heat up
28 July 2006
at 4:23 p.m.

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Lepanto1571 (Anonymous) says…

Correct Buddha, we were the “Franks.” (ding, ding, ding) Of course we consisted of Brits, Normans (post Conquest-hence civilized [just a bit of Viking humor), Germans, etc.

We used to only call the Muslim inhabitants of Spain and North Africa “Moor.” The Arabs of the Outremer were typically referred to as “Mohammedan, “Saracen,” or believe it or not “Infidel.”

Then came the Turk. Then the stereotypes really began to fly.
28 July 2006
at 4:35 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

history 101
28 July 2006
at 4:35 p.m.

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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

sorry just had to
28 July 2006
at 5:25 p.m.

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rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…

lepanto…..I spaced those off…..I can expect an ass whupin from my sca friends with middle eastern personas.
28 July 2006
at 9:29 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

Instead of the beginning of another world war, perhaps we are witnessing the beginning of the end of Israel.

One key nuance will be whether or not young Israelis will be willing to make the grueling sacrifices preceding generations made to secure their nation.

Another important nuance will be the United State's continuing support for Israel, and conditions that will be attached to our support. China is lurking on the sidelines, eager to exploit Middle East turmoil for its own advantage. America's Middle East policy is influenced, in part, by Arab oil states who look with increasing exasperation at Israeli assaults upon Muslims.

Would that we were as strong and focused now as in the Clinton years, when our international prestige, military power, and economic weal were high. Unfortunately, our prestige and military power have been piddled away in Iraq, and our economic strength must wait a return of Democrats and fiscal discipline to flourish again.

Let Israel disband, voluntarily. We should welcome them to our shores. How formidable we would become in international finance, medical research, arts and letters as a result of their influx into our society.

But it won't happen. They will fight and kill each other, for generation after generation, or until one uses nuclear weapons on the other, and triggers a biblical holocaust.
28 July 2006
at 9:32 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

I forgot to note that, to punish us, don't be too suprised in the future if Arab oil-states insist that international oil contracts be pegged to the Chinese currency, instead of the American dollar.

When that happens, get ready for a depression that will make the 1930s look like a dinner party … with $8 dollar a gallon gas.

28 July 2006
at 10:11 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Xeno, you just tied WAY too many things together with absolutely ZERO relevance to each other, and ZERO facts to support the claim! YOu expect us to listen to it…much less buy it?

You call this expositon in thought “nuance”? Look it up in the Dictionary.

The “Nuance” of young Isreali's taking to fight, the answer is YES, emphatic, NO “Nuance” ther at all.

As for your other “Nuance”, CHina is already there, and while Arab states are exhasperated at the Isreal?palestine thing, they are MORE Exhasperated at the Yahoo in Iran, and Syria, as well as Hizbullah. THat is Nuance, and YOU missed, because you won't accept it.

As for your Clinton Love and Bush Hate, fine, but that is ALL you have. You cannot think outside THAT particular BOX, in any way shape or form.

WOrld affairs were in the CLinton years for the US was Appeasement. It got 2 planes in the towers and one in the Pentagon. Alseep at the switch is NOT a goop policy manuver, regardless of your Bill-Love. Other countries liked for one reason only, Bill pulled out the Checkbook, end of story. Had nothing to do with policy or will.

The Clinton years Decimated our armed services, and gutted our intelligence.

Yeah, that is right, all the Hell you give GWB was from the Intell department that your “Willian the Great” put in the CIA and NSA. Remember the Reno attorney general, that was better????? The CLinton Admin. tore apart our intelligence community. YOu cannot argue out of that one.

Whjere hga loves to quote the 9/11 commission report, check what it said about the CLinton administration. It wasn't even as good as the Current admin.

That is fact! Waiting to be called names or to have the thread go off on a seperate irrelevant tangent tangent.
28 July 2006
at 10:12 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Xeno posted not very smartly:

“I forgot to note that, to punish us, don't be too suprised in the future if Arab oil-states insist that international oil contracts be pegged to the Chinese currency, instead of the American dollar.”

That would be GREAT news! The Chinese dollar is Tied to a lower level on the Dollar. Our currency would be worth more then! Wrong line of thought from a intellectual wanna bee!
29 July 2006
at 6:02 a.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

dumb and dumber:

Perhaps you rocket scientists should consider the impact on America's domestic economy if international oil contracts are no longer pegged to the dollar.

The rest of the industrialized world no longer subsidize our use of oil. Instead of other countries having to earn dollars in hard foreign currency to pay their oil bills, we would have to earn enough reserves of another currency - Euros, Chinese, whatever - to pay our oil bill.

Tell me again, rocket scientists, how great that would be.
29 July 2006
at 8:18 a.m.

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jonas (Anonymous) says…

The problem is that many Islamic folk take their religion way too seriously. When they become more like Christians, and just talk about how pious they are, without putting real thought into it, and the true die-hards are laughed off as crazy extremists, the world will know more peace.
29 July 2006
at 7:15 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” (google for the author)
30 July 2006
at 4:38 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

It is always gratifying to show loser troglodytle neo-con fascists the truth.

Perhaps - not often, but occasionally - one of them will experience an epiphany, such as Dumb ( (assbestos)and Dumber (rightthinker) did recently in a posting about the price of oil being pegged to either the dollar or the currency of some other country.

Dumbo Repooblican troglodyte conservative neo-con fascists need, and should, listen more closely to liberal Democrats, for we are the voice of the reason - and the voice of the future.

Again, it is a vile blasphemy for Rebooblicans to claim they have some kind of magical mandate on patriotism and/or love of country. They don't seem to grasp that, when idiots like Cheney & Co., with their Chief Idiot Cowboy as mouthpiece/spokesman, make a wreck of our foreign policy they expose us to great danger.

We can only hope that St. Hillary will come to our rescue in time before the Arabs slit our throats over oil.
30 July 2006
at 4:39 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

BTW, wonder what the families of the four UN observers murdered by Israeli forces think of the conflict in the Middle East?
30 July 2006
at 6:03 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

Murdered? You have proof positive of intent do you?

30 July 2006
at 6:48 p.m.

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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…

I guess you missed all the IR film footage from the attack camera, clearly showing rockets being launched right beside the buildings that later got targeted.

Also, the blast was much larger than the ordinance used, suggesting that just like in Iraq, GAZA, etc. these cowards hide in and amoungst civilians, and store weapons in civilian areas, schools, and mosques.

Isreal also TOLD the UNIFIL to go in and get those people out of there…the UN forces refused. Koffee stated that in the Security council meeting this morning!

Hizbullah is the reason those people are dead
30 July 2006
at 8:17 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

The longer the conflict goes on, the more popular Hezbollah becomes, not only in Lebanon, but throughout the Arab world.

Not exactly the outcome we want, or can afford much longer.

Idiocy piled on top of idiocy.
30 July 2006
at 11:09 p.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

“So far, the Israeli campaign in Lebanon appears to be strengthening the militant Islamic group Hezbollah and its allies in Syria and Iran and weakening Lebanon's fragile democratic government, not the other way around.

In the longer run, critics say, Bush and Rice's refusal to intervene more forcefully is helping push hezbollah to new heights of popularity across the arab world, sowing anger at the tacit U.S. backing of the Israeli offensive and weakening America's relations with its friends in Europe and the Muslim world.

sunni leaders in saudi arabia, egypt and elsewhere initially criticized hezbollah for sparking the crisis by kidnapping two israeli soldiers and launching rockets into israel. but the mood is rapidly shifting.

“What was striking in the early days after the beginning of hostilities was the widespread criticism of the Hezbollah, including by Arab governments,” Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor under Presdident Carter. “I am afraid that with the conflict continuing, the radicalization of the Arab masses is going to become more pervasive, the sympathy for the Hezbollah more extensive, and as a consequence, the prospects for a favorable outcome beyond some sort of ad hoc solutions will be reduced,” Bryzezinski said.

“The conflict in Lebanon appears to be fusing together two longtime enemies, Sunni and Shiite Muslims, large swaths of whom are now united in anger at Israel and the United States.” - W.P. Strobel, McClatchy News - 30 July 2006

Pay closer attention. Clear your mind of Israeli propaganda and see the truth.
31 July 2006
at 6:27 a.m.

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xenophonschild (Anonymous) says…

The idiot-liar Arminianus:

When will you learn? Attack the message - if you can - but not the messenger.

You cannot gainsay that Hezbollah is profiting in prestige and popularity in the Arab/Muslim world from this latest round of internecine warfare in the Middle East. You need to determine the ramifications - which might be asking too much of you - and apply them to understanding what is happening and what might possibly transpire in the future.

Have a nice day.
31 July 2006
at 7:16 a.m.

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Porter (Anonymous) says…

I have to agree with xeno on this one.

Fighting terrorism with large-scale military strikes is like fighting a fire with gasoline.

Killing civilians is only going to create more terrorists.