Archive for Monday, December 18, 2006

Dining operation seeks special-use permit

December 18, 2006


Lawrence-Douglas County Planning Commissioners this week again will consider whether an East Lawrence home should be used as a special dining establishment.

At their meeting Wednesday, commissioners will consider a special-use permit for Krause Dining at 917 Del. City commissioners previously denied a rezoning to allow the private dining facility to be operated out of the single-family home. Now the owners, Robert and Molly Krause, are asking for a special-use permit that would give them the ability to resume operation of their business.

The meeting is set to begin at 6:30 p.m. at City Hall, Sixth and Massachusetts streets.

Commissioners at the Wednesday meeting also will consider giving approval to the Transportation 2030 Future Land Use Map.

Planning commissioners also will meet at 6:30 tonight at City Hall. Items on that agenda include:

¢ A preliminary plat for Midnight Farm, a residential living facility proposed by Community Living Opportunities. It would be on 40 acres at 2084 N. 600 Road.

¢ A conditional-use permit for a light aircraft landing strip at 2142 N. 300 Road.


hipper_than_hip 11 years, 4 months ago

How many customers at a time does this private dining facility want to serve? And how many times a week does it want to serve dinner?

cork_dork 11 years, 4 months ago

Rewarding someone for illegally going about the process to begin with (and getting busted for it) by allowing them to do what they set out to do in the first place is so completely wrong!

Why bother having any laws or rules if you are going to break them?

hipper_than_hip 11 years, 4 months ago

"they want to serve 30 at a time 4 nights a week."

That's way too many to run a business in a single family neighborhood. I was thinking it was more like two or three couples two or three times a week.

It sounds like they want to run a regular business, so they need to take the plunge and rent or buy a building, like the ex-Hereford House.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

cool - cool down! You've stated your OPINION, now shut up! You make so many assumptions that you are laughable.

"There are several historic structures within 500 feet of this property and the block which it is located within is really a single family residential district."

Let me see here, run down bus barn - it sure looks historic.

Charlies neighborhood dive - yep, historic.

Cinderblock warehouses and manufacturing facilities - oh, yes again, historic.

30 diners does not mean that 30 parking spaces will be used...I seriously doubt that each diner will drive separately, at least that has not been my witness when we have dined there years ago.

Re: the it is okay for Budweiser, Miller, Coors trucks, not to mention Coke distributors (ha that is pretty funny - coke), trash trucks to traverse the alley to service Chariles but not the rest of the block? Have you sat outside in surveilance to determine how many and when delivery trucks will be stoping at the Krause establishment? Hmmm...stalking perhaps?

You allude to the fact that they would be most busy during the holidays...clearly, you are ignorant. If they are serving 4 nights a week, they will be sold out each night.

Your heresay argument about drug reps and their "under the radar - cover up" activity is just that - heresay from a desparate person like yourself who is determined to prevent someone from running a small business directed at a narrow market...people are not going to be breaking down the gates to EAST LAWRENCE to line up - there is an established clientelle...and they aren't the types who are clogging up the roadways, or driving through neighbor's yards, or littering on their way in or out!

You need to get down of your high horse and crawl back into your little hole - cool!

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Hey cool - since you are a self-proclaimed Historic Resources Commissioner, why don't you state your identity. I would be very surprised if you were not prohibited from STATING YOUR OPINION - OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, CAMPAIGNING AGAINST AN APPLICANT in a public forum on a matter you voted on. What kind of monkey proceedings do you run on that commission? We already know what kind of monkey proceedings the city commission runs!

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

shadower - on previous threads in previous articles on this very subject, it has already been noted that they were not in compliance. They are trying to take the steps to get into copmliance...what is so wrong with that? Give them the credit for trying to get the correct permits, certificates, etc.

Don't believe all the hype you read on here. When people get scared, they start spreading all kinds of hyperbole.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

cool for you I meant heresy - for everyone else I meant hearsay...thanks for the spelling lesson. At least you knew what I meant.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

cool wrote - am anonymous in he forum because of such hostile and somewhat ignorant people like you.

Since we are handing out spelling lessons the forum is not gender specific, so I think you spelled "t"he incorrectly.

Also of interest...take a look at your "hostile" comments above. Way more hostile that what I wrote.

cool wrote -there are many historic RESIDENCES in this neighborhood.

Name some historic homes within 500 feet of the Krause structure (not including the Krause structure).

shadower - unless I misunderstand your comment - it applies to everyone, supporter or not. I would suggest that if cool wasn't trying to make a federal case of this, then he/she wouldn't have posted 11 posts with arguments as to why folks should show up and lobby against the permit request.

Anything in ELNA is a FEDERAL CASE.

cool wrote - if you or i lived on the same block would you reallly want this next door ?

I would rather have that than a bus barn, or a run down shack. This is a good thing for the neighborhood and for the city. Maybe you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it is not a good thing.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Essentially you have already outed yourself cool by your various admissions and examples provided. It won't be long before you are figured out - and in reality I could care less. I just think it is a gross misuse of your power to work a request through your "commission" and then go out and publicly work "for or against" said project. That is not your role...and I would think most would agree with me. Leave the campaigning to those not serving in an "official" capacity.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

not when you tout your role on the HRC you are not! Your undue influence is just the opposite - you hold a title and a position, whether it is elected, volunteered, paid or otherwise. You are the worst kind of political schmuck to hide behind some veil of anonymity. You had your turn on the HRC - great. You voiced your concern there. Don't tout your HRC status in voicing your PERSONAL OPINION. If that is the case, then who the freak cares what your role on the HRC is. I wouldn't have, but you so proudly stated your position, so you should name yourself. What a joke!

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

That is rich! Now we will have an East Bottoms Residential Area - a sub chapter of the East Lawrence Neighborhood Association. Classic.

Again, the properties that you list, may or may not qualify for historical status - some might push the 500 foot limit, but it cheapens your claim a bit and - again, makes you less credible. Keep this up for the rest of us.

cool wrote above - There are several historic structures within 500 feet of this property and the block which it is located within is really a single family residential district.

By this definition a lot could fall under "historic structures" like a falling down garage, or a remnant stone foundation that is probably the gateway to some underground railroad.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

He disagrees with you, so he should shut up, right, not dolph?

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Bozo - no, but he shouldn't brag about his role on the HRC then recruit folks to protest the request at the hearing on Wednesday. There is a distinct difference in disagreeing and misusing your role in the public process.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

cool, you have one thing right - you have said all you can say.

You seem to be retreating from your strident positioning earlier in this thread - your post a couple above is probalby what you should have said from the beginning and then stopped at that point.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

"he shouldn't brag about his role on the HRC "

I didn't take it as bragging. I took it as testimony that the process had been abused-- this was brought before the HRC as a residential property while seeking approval for improvements and additions that were clearly intended for a commercial structure.

While personally I think this facility could be acceptable in this particular location, because of the alegal, if not illegal, route taken by the owners, approval for this special use could set a difficult precedent for the city.

Constitutionally, laws are supposed to be implemented equally. As cool points out, what's to prevent anyone in a residential neighborhood from setting up a BBQ and selling out of their driveway?

It'd be a shame if the Krauses can't continue this business, but because of the untenable position they've put the city in, if they are rejected in their request for a special use permit, it's pretty much their own damn fault.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Bozo - the moment cool talked about his role in the decision making process, he gave up his option to advocate for or against this issue. Had he simply made comments anonymously (as he continues to do), would have been no different than you or I posting here. But to let folks know that you sat on a quasi-governing board which heard this matter, then voice your personal opinion about what you think should or should not happen and then encourage everyone to go to city hall and rally against is a gross abuse of his responsibilities in the process. In many posts, you and I are on the opposite sides of issues, but, here we can find agreement in the rest of your missive. And I agree that most everything connected to this request is probably not "normal operation." But things aren't really normal anymore anyhow, are they? Robert could stand a dose of humility now and then as well, but not one that causes him to move his business to Chicago and beyond.

Yeah, I hope they approve the request. I just think people keep missing the point. Yeah, he was violating the law in his prior that he wants to try to get the correct permit, certificate, people cry out about how he previously went afoul. Fine him, levy a new tax, whatever, I don't care, but folks should not be upset that he is now trying to become appropriately credentialed to conduct business in the Delaware location.

lynnd 11 years, 4 months ago

good lord i don't have the energy for this again. go back and read the previous posts, on the previous articles about this.

yes they were out of compliance before, but they also got bad/incorrect advice from the city. they've now taken steps to get into compliance.

i for one find it ironic that the HRC doesn't approve of this because they think it damages the "environs." krause's aren't even building anything new, but HRC thinks they're going to ruin the "environs" of the (new) harris development at 8th and penn? if you were at the previous planning commission on this topic, even the planning commissioners questioned this ridiculous line of thinking.

if anything this will improve the neighborhood.

jafs 11 years, 4 months ago

Trying to get a "special use" permit after having been denied rezoning doesn't sound to me like trying to "do the right thing", but more like trying to get in through the back door after being denied access through the front.

Also, if they did in fact just try to run the restaurant without even applying for rezoning in the first place, that seems wrong. It's obviously not a "residential", but a "commercial" undertaking, even if it is a rather small one.

I think that cool is as entitled as anyone else to express his/her opinion in public - has anyone read the 1st amendment recently?

Also, it sounds like the city has managed to shut HRC out of the process, which he/she is upset about, justly imho.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Well, thank God for the League of Women Voters...this sure is something that is right up their alley - NOT.

jafs, if you don't think a special permit request is doing the right thing, then you need to run for the city commission and change the law...they created this designation/category for situations just like this. So, I guess they are trying to do the "right thing."

If cool wants to promote his personal opinion, then he should resign from the HRC. Certainly, he should not tie the two together as he does in the outset of this thread.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

So now not only should cool just shut up, but so should jafs and the league of women voters.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

If I say yes, Bozo, will you go away too?

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

You're missing the point bozo - it is not about people that disagree needing to "shut up" as you put it. In fact, I never suggest that to either the League or to jafs. Merely pointing out that it is quite a strange subject for the League to take a position on, and that, again, IMO Krause is trying to do the right thing...yet people continue to get caught up in (read my earlier post) "he didn't do it right before." Dude, just give the guy a chance.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

Personally, I think the Krauses should be given the permit, but only when the city can be certain that it doesn't set a precedent that allows others to follow their example.

I think they should also pay commercial property taxes on the portion of their property that's used for the business.

Given that one of his only competitors in town, Pachamama's, just spent upwards of $1 million to play by the rules, it's only fair.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

I dont' know how you get around the first point, since clearly any type of special permit would be precedent setting. If you dont' want the city to set precedent, then they cannot approve the Krause permit. If I read your post correctly, you are not saying that that is what you think should happen.

I agree with the other stuff you posted, and did last nigth as well.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 11 years, 4 months ago

I think the way you avoid setting precedents is by changing the code to say that anyone engaging in a non-conforming use before requesting a rezoning or a special use permit will become automatically ineligible for one.

I believe that this special permit would be non-transferable, which is also appropriate.

lynnd 11 years, 4 months ago

I think the reason they (the city) went the SUP route is so they didn't have to worry about setting precedents for others. The city balked at changing the zoning, because that would have opened more doors for others, or made it difficult if the Krause's left the property, because it would have already been rezoned.

The SUP is a way of allowing them to operate legally, without changing their zoning, and it has specific restrictions to them. If they sell, the next owner doesn't automatically get the SUP that they had.

I'm all for cool having opinions, but I don't know why the HRC is so concerned about this when there are so many other bigger issues. Krause's aren't even modifying their structure. Why does HRC care so much?

lynnd 11 years, 4 months ago

Something else that I wish people would remember is that the Krause's were not necessarily knowingly violating city ordinances when they operated previously.

They were told by city staff that they could operate under their current zoning as "in house catering" and since catering was allowed under their current zoning, they would be fine. Apparently that was incorrect, but that's not the Krause's fault.

Everyone keeps yelling about them operating illegally and getting caught, and now trying to get in the back door, but that's not necessarily true. I believe a geniune mistake was made, based on bad information from the city, and the Krause's have done everything they can to do things right.

lynnd 11 years, 4 months ago

And, as a resident of east Lawrence, I'm far less concerned with "commercial encroachment" than I am about the slumlords and homes that are not maintained.

The Krause property is still a HOME. They LIVE there. Just because they operate a business as well doesn't mean it's not still residential. What about day care providers and Mary Kay salespeople? I know they're technically in a different classification and a different type of business, but it's really not all that different. And the Krause's have done a fine job of fixing up a formerly decaying house.

conservative 11 years, 4 months ago


Being a bit inconsistent aren't you????? With the Krauses because supposedly the city gave bad information to the business they should be given a special permit and the regulations rewritten.

In the case of Walmart however where there was city approval for the store, in your opinion they shouldn't be allowed to build.

lynnd 11 years, 4 months ago

"Trying to get a "special use" permit after having been denied rezoning doesn't sound to me like trying to "do the right thing", but more like trying to get in through the back door after being denied access through the front."

================================ The SUP was the city's suggestion after they denied the rezoning. The city denied the rezoning request because they felt that the business did not technically fit CN-1 (or whatever it was) zoning guidelines, although the planning commission thought it did. The commission said that a SUP was a more appropriate route for this business It's not like they're trying to 'get in through the back door.' In fact if I remember right, the Krause's lawyer had wanted to do a SUP in the first place, but someone at the city said they should do rezoning. Obviously that didn't work. Perhaps if the city would quit changing their minds and be consistent some of this could be avoided.

12345 11 years, 4 months ago

Running a fine restaurant that serves alcohol is an enormously expensive endeavor, and it really disappoints me that Robert and Molly have apparently gone out of their way to avoid as many taxes and fees as they can. They are incredibly gifted at creating and serving food that is beyond comparison to any other I've ever had the pleasure to consume. It is expensive, but truly exceptional, and absolutely worth it for special occasions. It is a shame and a loss for this community that they went about this the way they did.

J Good Good 11 years, 4 months ago

I think he was commenting on the fairness to other businesses who pay their taxes and operate above the board, or for that matter put their businesses where they are properly zoned instead of expecting the city to fix their questionable business decisions....

pelliott 11 years, 4 months ago

I hope they get permission to do it. I live in East Lawrence and think they should get to do it. it is unusual, and unique, and so what. A little more freedom. They made the property look good. As for East Lawrence residents not eating there. I would, but not very often if it was real pricey. But Pachamamas is not that great and the service reaches bizarre. Snotty rude behavoir isn't really high tone. Their hostess needs meds and training. The Hampshire St. Bistro is ok food, but dark and can be very slow. The best steaks are at Don's. but I admit to having a good one at the Long Horn. Ole tapas continue to surprise me with good food, great sauces. For tapas the servings are huge, maybe not tradition but I forgive a lot for good food. Maybe the little house could donate free meals for 4 people every two months. They could send the coupons to me and I would make sure the quality of food justifies the special use permit.

Mkh 11 years, 4 months ago

Lawrence needs something like this to stay, heck I think we even need more of them.

It's too bad the way they went about it, but the bottom line is if Lawrence looses this it will be for the worse.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Are you drinking, cool? You already posted that story. Have another...toast to you.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Doesn't sound like ELNA does either, but the city says that special use permits are an agreeable solution in certain cases...and I bet that they allow those in your neighborhood. It is not akin to zoning.

I didn't know that the pig had pool tables.

not_dolph 11 years, 4 months ago

Sorry cool, not terribly interested. Don't know our "local friend" is, but I am sure I could come up with the same type of "stuff" on the history of why and how of the Krause project. I know them well, and I know every step they went through when they were rennovating their home. Not sure your friend knows ALL the details.

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