Archive for Monday, August 28, 2006

Resident to sound off on dog ordinance

August 28, 2006


Agenda highlights ¢ 6:35 p.m. Tuesday ¢ City Hall, Sixth and Massachusetts streets ¢ Sunflower Broadband Channel 25 ¢ Meeting documents online at

Bottom line

City commissioners will hear concerns about the dangerous dog ordinance from Lawrence resident Kathy Gragg, whose dog has been cited because of the ordinance.


City staff members are not recommending any changes to the dangerous dog ordinance. They say the law, which can require owners to keep their dogs muzzled or in a secure cage, has been effective in reducing dog bites. The law also allows the city's Municipal Court to order a dog to be put to sleep if it is a repeat offender.

Other business


¢ Presentation of the Foundation Award to EMR Inc.

Consent agenda

¢ Approve City Commission meeting minutes from Aug. 15.

¢ Receive minutes from various boards and commissions.

¢ Approve all claims.

¢ Approve licenses as recommended by the Department of Administrative Services.

¢ Adopt on first reading Charter Ordinance No. 38, repealing Charter Ordinance No. 19, relating to city purchasing practices for certain city improvements. Four affirmative votes are required for a charter ordinance.

¢ Adopt the following ordinances on second and final reading:

a.) Ordinance No. 8028, allowing the temporary sale, possession and consumption of alcoholic liquor Sept. 9 on the west side of South Park.

b.) Ordinance No. 8031, adopting the 2006 Edition of the Standard Traffic Ordinance.

¢ Adopt the following resolutions:

a.) Resolution No. 6676, authorizing the mayor to execute Surface Transportation Project Agreement No. 139-06 with the Kansas Department of Transportation and Agreement No. 126-06 for the construction of Kasold Drive from Peterson Road to the Kansas Turnpike project.

b.) Resolution No. 6678, authorizing the issuance of general obligation bonds in the amount of $1.2 million for construction of Kasold Drive from Peterson Road to the Kansas Turnpike project.

¢ Authorize the mayor to sign a release of mortgage for Corene Nelson, 443 Maple.

¢ Approve work of art permit for Peoples Bank, 4831 W. Sixth St., pursuant to Lawrence Arts Commission recommendation.

¢ Approve recommendation to enter into a contract with Treanor Architects to conduct a feasibility study and needs assessment of sports and athletic facilities in Lawrence in an amount not to exceed $63,000. The Lawrence school district, Douglas County and Lawrence Chamber of Commerce are partners in the funding of this study.

¢ Approve right-of-way permit application and request for city financial participation of $5,000 for "Get Downtown," a live musical event.

¢ Receive city manager's report.

Regular agenda

¢ Receive comments from Kathy Gragg concerning animal control ordinance.

¢ Receive staff report concerning population estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau and authorize official challenge of the Census Bureau estimates.

¢ Receive meeting summary report from Black & Veatch for the Wakarusa Water Reclamation Facility and direct staff to proceed with land acquisition discussions for 530 acres of property south of the Wakarusa River between North 1175 and North 1100 roads.

¢ Consider motion to recess into executive session for 20 minutes to discuss possible acquisition of real estate.


BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

The Grinstead letter is one of the most fascinating pieces of fiction I've seen in a long time.

And I wonder: Hey Midge, if your powers of prognostication are so keen tell me, should I bet on the Chiefs?

Will my (big, scary-looking harmless) dogs ever bite someone even though they've NEVER bitten anyone before?

Will I or someone in my family bite someone?

How many fingers am I holding up?

What did I eat for breakfast?

jcantspell 11 years, 6 months ago

And it was written. That no animal shall own another animal. But all animals shall be free! To tare up trash and poop in yards!

Rover 10:16

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

Because in 50 years of having dogs I've never seen a dog that is as set in its ways as a person is. That is, dogs unlearn behavior much more quickly than people do and I have yet to meet a dog that flat out couldn't be trained and controlled.

My questions is, how could you hold a person who would make such a bizarre claim as "the most knowledgable animal [person] in this town? They obviously haven't a clue. They have an agenda.

Left field, indeed. Read Cesar Millan, I have.

I find this "bad dog" talk disgusting and the people doing the talking uninformed.

Many people aren't willing do do the work that comes with having a dog, THAT is where problems come from.

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

Sybil, The Grinstead letter is on the City web site with the Commission agenda stuff. --B

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

And some of God's creatures taste like chicken.

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

I have nothing against Midge personally OR the Humane Society, I've adopted from the Lawrence Humane Society and will again.

When the HS was overwhelmed with dogs and cats from an out of county shelter last year, I went to the store then delivered over $100.00 in dog/cat food and cat litter to the shelter. I am a huge supporter and this issue won't change that, I just think Midge's position on this animal is patently wrong. Frankly, the world needs more Midge Grinsteads and people dedicated to her work.

CanadianPassport 11 years, 6 months ago

I'm just a caveman. When I see an eclipse, I think, "Oh no, is the moon eating the sun?" That's the way I think, I'm a caveman.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

I'm pretty sure I like dogs allot more than I like people. For one thing, they can't talk. Or at least speak English. For another thing, they can't write or use a computer. And, they are loyal. And love unconditionally. I've never met a person like that. And, they don't complain too much and they don't nag. They can run off, but its usually not on purpose and its nothing personal. And they like you just because you're you. I've never met a dog that I couldn't get close to. It, sometimes, takes some time and some patience and good and honorable intent, they're keen on that, but it can be done. I think that there are no mean dogs, only mean people who teach them to act that way. Dogs aren't evil, but evil people can cause them to be bad. Anyway, I like dogs allot.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

most people that want fish buy an aquarium.

a taller fence would've been saved a lot of grief here, it seems.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

See Dick run. See Jane run. See Spot run. See Dick and Jane run. See Dick run after Jane. See Jane run after Spot. See Dick and Jane run after Spot. See Mr. Policeman run after Dick and Jane and Spot. So what. Who cares? Only them. Leave them alone and they'll run home, wagging their tails behind them.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

true enough, paladin. i don't care. i have my own fence to mind, but worrying that the neighbor's unminded spot was going to bite my in-her-own-yard jane is one of them.

sorry, sybil, you don't wait for the toddler to pull the lamp on their head before you realize you have to move things out of their growing reach. a parent doesn't require an ordinance to determine how far to move the lamp back.

it was an error in judgment, at best. i don't even know if she's disputing that she screwed up by not giving the pooch a proper roaming ground, but in the end, a bigger fence would've kept the dog in.

carolannfugate 11 years, 6 months ago

Some posters are simply sour grapes. Where's the Love? anything worth having is worth fighting for.

whiteoleander 11 years, 6 months ago

my Mother always says " If you can't play with the big dogs stay on the porch"

Guess we know who be the Big Dogs and who be the Porch sitters.

Sent you a message Mr. Flint.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

(atouk must've forgotten the...)



carolannfugate 11 years, 6 months ago

I have to work but plan to tape the meeting. I see merit to this case and the smoking ban case too. Has anyone heard what is going on with the Noise Ordinance?

ForThePeople 11 years, 6 months ago

Posted by justsomewench (michelle m.) on August 28, 2006 at 8:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(atouk must've forgotten the...)



HEHEHEHE! Interesting dialogue in this thread....that's for sure!

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

I still say give her the dog back. Do we punish parents every time some snot-nosed little brat comes up and spits on us or kicks us with their tiny annoying feet? No. Even when they bite or harass us, we still just take it. There's no justice in this world if you can't hit an annoying and harassing small child with a rolled-up newspaper the same way you cuff a dog on the nose with one too.

Let the dog live. Midge Grinstead is awesome.

ForThePeople 11 years, 6 months ago

Midge Grinstead clearly stated that she felt the dog was a threat to the public and her feeling was that given the opportunity, the dog would bite.

enforcers, (or whoever she is today) time would be better spent adopting another dog, instead of fighting for one that she will not get back!

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

i see no harm in letting the dog live provided it's in an environment where it has the appropriate enclosure, training, and supervision/attention it needs, but...

chances are, if the dog has been caged for this long, none of these have been addressed in the interim, either.

lord knows how the dog is conditioned to respond now. i'd venture that, if it wasn't truly a 'dangerous dog' before, chances are that it has all kinds of potential now. too bad the fence couldn't've been a little higher.

funny. this is all remarkably similar to the state foster care system.

janeb 11 years, 6 months ago

On Free Speech

Memorable Quotes from Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939) Jefferson Smith: You see, boys forget what their country means by just reading The Land of the Free in history books. Then they get to be men they forget even more. Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books, Miss Saunders. Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't, I can, and my children will. Boys ought to grow up remembering that.

Jefferson Smith: Either I'm dead right, or I'm crazy!


janeb 11 years, 6 months ago

[the filibuster begins] President of Senate: The Chair recognizes... Senator Smith! Jefferson Smith: Thank you, sir. Clarissa Saunders: Diz, here we go. Jefferson Smith: Well, I guess the gentlemen are in a pretty tall hurry to get me out of here. The way the evidence has piled up against me, I can't say I blame them much. And I'm quite willing to go, sir, when they vote it that way - but before that happens I've got a few things I want to say to this body. I tried to say them once before, and I got stopped colder than a mackerel. Well, I'd like to get them said this time, sir. And as a matter of fact, I'm not going to leave this body until I do get them said. Senator Joseph Paine: Mr. President, will the Senator yield? President of Senate: Will the Senator yield? continued

janeb 11 years, 6 months ago

Jefferson Smith: No, sir, I'm afraid not, no sir. I yielded the floor once before, if you can remember, and I was practically never heard of again. No sir. And we might as well all get together on this yielding business right off the bat, now. [laughter from the gallery] Jefferson Smith: Now, I had some pretty good coaching last night, and I find that if I yield only for a question or a point of order or a personal privilege, that I can hold this floor almost until doomsday. In other words, I've got a piece to speak, and blow hot or cold, I'm going to speak it. Senator Joseph Paine: Will the Senator yield? President of Senate: Will Senator Smith yield? Jefferson Smith: Yield how, sir? Senator Joseph Paine: Will he yield for a question? Jefferson Smith: For a question, all right.

Senator Joseph Paine: I wish to ask my distinguished colleague, has he one scrap of evidence to add now to the defense he did not give and could not give at that same hearing? Jefferson Smith: I have no defense against forged papers! Senator Joseph Paine: The Committee ruled otherwise! The gentleman stands guilty, as charged. And I believe I speak for every member when I say that no one cares to hear what a man of his condemned character has to say about any section of any legislation before this House. President of Senate: Order, order, gentlemen. Jefferson Smith: Mr. President, I stand guilty as FRAMED! Because section 40 is graft! And I was ready to say so, I was ready to tell you that a certain man in my state, a Mr. James Taylor, wanted to put through this dam for his own profit. A man who controls a political machine! And controls everything else worth controlling in my state. Yes, and a man even powerful enough to control Congressmen - and I saw three of them in his room the day I went up to see him! Senator Joseph Paine: Will the Senator yield? Jefferson Smith: No, sir, I will not yield! And this same man, Mr. James Taylor, came down here and offered me a seat in this Senate for the next 20 years if I voted for a dam that he knew, and I knew, was a fraud. But if I dared to open my mouth against that dam, he promised to break me in two.

Good Luck to Enforcer and Luna.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

Jimmy Stewart was at the meeting? Wow! If I'd known that, I woulda gone. Now, HE'S a great actor. Thumbs up for the puppydog! Please, o mighty emperors, spare this poor unfortunate. For he has committed no offense. But then, in the world in which we now live, that is no longer a prerequisite for punishment. All that is needed is that one demonstrate the potential for committing a crime, be suspected of thinking about possibly committing a crime, or be in disfavor of someone in authority, or looking allot like some others of the same type who have actually committed crimes in the past. We've come a long way as a People, wouldn't ya say Jimmy? The poor puppydog isn't the only one for who the judgement of authority is at hand. So too, it is for us all. It seems, often now, that wisdon and mercy and understanding and compassion are in very short supply, particularly as demostrated in the actions of those of "authority".

badger 11 years, 6 months ago


The more people get pulled out of this conversation, the less sense it makes...

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

Right arm! Power to the Pistol, er I mean People, er I mean Steeple! Allot of them Muslims is possible terrorists. Just you wait and see. They're such a burden on us civilized folk. What to do. Gitmo? It'd be much safer only havin to deal with the French. Like the Poodles; their nice.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

All I know, that is of any value, is based on personal experience. In my line of work, I go into allot of people's homes and have met allot of puppydogs. I have met several Pit bulls. Every one of them was scary looking, but proved to be among the most intelligent, warm, friendly, playful, loving, loyal, and obedient dogs I've ever met. I would not hesitate to adopt any one of them as my own. Perhaps, they were good and decent doggies because their significant persons were good and decent and loving people, too. That's all I KNOW.

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

Wow the 10:27 a.m post pulls out almost all the myths about pits.

Where do people hear this crap?

Do people feel so powerless that they have to blame breeds of dogs for social problems? The same thing happened in the past with Rotties, Dobermans and even the gentle German shepherd; pit bulls are the scapegoat breed of the new millennium.

It keeps being stated and it continues to be true no matter what nonsense gets posted or printed in the news to the contrary: It's not the dogs, it's their people.

Dogs need routine, structure and rules. Owners who don't provide these things are negligent and their dogs could be dangerous regardless of breed.

Talk about being soft on crime, ignore the people who ARE the problem and get rid of the dogs. Then the bad people will take their action somewhere else and the problem persists. Nice logic and nothing changes.


acg 11 years, 6 months ago

Does anyone know what happened at this meeting last night and whether or not chicky gets to keep her dog? If nothing else, let there be an end to it so I don't have to sift thru anymore "Luna is the next massiah, luna is the most beautiful dog ever, luna is made of freakin' creme cheese" posts from what's her face!

BrianR 11 years, 6 months ago

Are we sure there aren't gangs that fight teacup poodles? Really, they're the perfect breed, who would hear them?

Years ago, I was attacked by a German Shepherd, it wasn't the dog's fault.

I'm sorry about your wife's attack. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Still not the dog's fault.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

Wait, I'm cornfused. A dog killed your wife? Bummer. And, she had nightmares about it afterward? Weird. Would you like to talk about it?

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

my lhasapoo is a crackbaby (rescue dog) and the only dangerous thing about her is that she's damned ugly, god help her. she thinks she looks like a watchdog, but people just leave because they can't bear to keep looking.

if the city could legislate against ugly, we'd be in a buttload of trouble.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

My momma always used to say that ugly is as ugly does. And, I think she also always used to say that crazy is as crazy does. And stupid is as stupid does. But, maybe not. Can't remember. But, she talked allot.
Without saying very much. Or, said allot without talking very much. Oh well.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

wouldn't be the first time i've heard i have a talent for saying so very much without saying a dammed thing at all. if you were talking about me, that is.

damned ugly dog, anyhow. her pet is even uglier. at least we get to keep our stuff and we can afford the fence, though.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

Wouldn't talk about you in a negative way, whatsoever, cause you are very cool and I like you, too. Don't know you or your dog, neither, however. Your puppydog is probly better off being ugly, cause she's probly made up for it in strength of character. And in other good ways. Be my guess.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

moira- if i understand it correctly, the city commission wasn't interested in changing the ordinance and this had nothing to do with letting the dog in question off the hook.

i'm pretty sure all she could do was gripe, so i'm guessing that's what happened at the meeting. griping.

i could be wrong.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

btw, paladin, thank you. (i owe you money, don't i).

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

Bull Terriers or Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull Terriers are seperate breeds. George Patton had a Bull Terrier, who was his constant companion during WWII. They have the reputation of being extremely loyal and affectionate and loving and a great dog to be around kids. They, evidently, are often confused with Pit Bulls.

whiteoleander 11 years, 6 months ago

"The mayor tried to shut her up/hurry her along but it was Schauner who said anything to Corliss about looking into Kathy's allegations."

No the Mayor did not see what carestandards had to do with the Ordinance and Kathy pointed out "everything" since care standards are included in the Ordinance. If the City sets standards for owners then they too should be held to those same standards. Mike Amyx did question the Safer test procedures. The Shelter is manned by mostly volunteers, last year there was an incident where a volunteer poured bleach into water bowls. How was that error made? the shelter stores water in old bleach bottoles, making it easier for volunteers to transport. In the specific incident the Shelter called a Vet to come and save the dog. Kathy has made contact with that volunteer and she is willing to testify to the standards and practices of the shelter.
The reason Schauner was so concerned was Kathy pointed out the massive liablity issues to the City based on the Ordinance as it stands The error on the part of a volunteer also speaks to the quality of training practices at the Shelter.

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Marion be nice to Agnostick.

Are they seriously going to euthanize the dog?

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

What on earth are you two arguing about?

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

At least I made it out. Now I'm stuck in long pause...counts grades 15th grade. Holy crap it never ends!

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Another typo, Mer E N.

It should read "Agnostick."....or agnostic if you really want to chip away at this man. I can tell that you purposefully misspelling his name is what keeps him up at night. NOT the safety and welfare of his family, NOT the security of his pension, NOT the gay marriage debate, NO!! It's the fact that Marion's clever enough to misspell a person's name

Agnostick: "Don't do it! Don't misspell my name-OOOOOOOOOOOOOH you misspelled my name I'm mad now!"

Marion: feeds ego and assumes that misspelling users' names during arguments makes all the difference in the world when argument is obviously going nowhere

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Marion I was kidding. Lighten up, or grow up.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

does anyone know what has a of LHS incarceration has done to this dog's disposition? by now, midge may very well be right. i'd want to bite someone after a year in a cage.

justsomewench 11 years, 6 months ago

i don't believe enforcer's the one to do the job. the dog was 3 months old and has been out of her life for a year.

give the dog to someone with the means (time, temperament, facilities, expertise) to take proper care of her. just because enforcer cares with all her livelong heart doest not mean she's a good (dog) parent.

fairylight 11 years, 6 months ago

I do 'volunteer' work in a specific arena. That does not mean I am not qualified, it means I donate my expertise to a cause or organization I feel is deserving.

SO..if volunteers ARE doing the temperament testing, that does not mean they don't have the knowledge or experience to do the job correctly.

fairylight 11 years, 6 months ago

Re Sasquatch: "Fairylight- I meant no disrespect towards volunteers. It's a liability issue. You don't let someone who is not getting paid Temperament test a possibly vicious dog. I personally thank you for your volunteer work wherever it may be. The world needs more people like you."

I never felt any disrespect, lol!..I am much in favor of open dialog and lively discussions!..

I do not volunteer in animal temperment I in fact do NOT know if a volunteer can legaly be used to do so. My point was simply that simply being a volunteer does not make a person UNqualified. I know you get my drift, lol.

Regarding volunteerism (sic) I do volunteer in the area of my degree. IT is not pet/animal related, so perhaps I was comparing apples to oranges? I would be interested in knowing more tho. WHY would it be frowned on for a volunteer to do temperment testing? I am going to have to argue liability being directly related to wages paid. I may well be wrong, but that simply does not make sense to me.

whiteoleander 11 years, 6 months ago

We received notice today Luna is still alive. Mom is very happy. " Kathy, Luna is still here and will be here until the resolution of this case. Amy "

whiteoleander 11 years, 6 months ago

The Prosecutor really thought the fight was about jail time and fines. So he dropped the charges and fines to make Enforcer drop the appeal and was surprised to see she did not.The Prosecutor became so angry over this he was sreaming at Enforcer outside the court house. I tried searching archives to see if anyone else had challenged him on dog charges and found there was none since these last additions. awhile back there was a puppy mill case with Akita's where the woman fought but the conditions were very bad at the kennels and many of the dogs died as a result. That case cost the City and the county alot of money so after it was done they got together and added things to the law.
There is also the Dog Fighters and the many problems in catching them. Mostly they get their dogs by default when they get the owner on other charges.
Enforcer said it is unheard of for a Prosecutor to drop charges after a conviction so I looked that up too and there has never been a case that this happened either. Sometimes the higher court overturns a conviction on appeal but not the way this happened. They should just stop and let Luna out of there.

fairylight 11 years, 6 months ago

That has been my main question since this saga began. I asked point blank if 'enforcer' would allow a responsible pit bull rehab to take possession of this animal , in order to save it's life. The response was a flat out NO .,

It is apparent she would rather see the dog caged, ultimately killed, that relinquish control of this animal. How is that sincere love , as she'd put it?

I know for a fact that several responsible, reliable and capable rehabilitating organization offered to take this dog, out of the confines of the pound AND out of the city in return for the agreement to allow the dog to be adopted IF the dogs temperament allowed, otherwise the dog would have been housed for life in a responsible, kind environment. UNLESS the dog was found to be overly aggressive and beyond rehab.

THAT WOULD have been the kind thing to have done. Instead, it seems the intent is to cause more hate and and shelter monies spent on nothing that improves anything.

Such a waste and such a shame.

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Marion I have seen no evidence from Agnostick or Fairylight that warrants the abuse you've been lashing on them for countless weeks. Lay off them. Besides, that last sentence from Kathy Gragg's letter is VERY offensive.

fairylight 11 years, 6 months ago

Let's see, Sybal says 'there was only 1 offer', Marion says there were none..Which is it? Before you call me a liar, you may want to put your money where your mouth is.

Ms Gragg had offers from legitimate sources, she was quite adamant that she was NOT giving away what she referred to as a member of her family. Plain and simple. Ms Gragg would have been required to relinquish ownership, and she simply would rather see the dog die than do that.

One time the story is the dog escaped because a faulty door, then another story is that a 17 year old mistakenly let the dog out, another rendition posted was that the dog was playing and accidentally climbed over the fence when no one was looking...Which is it? ( TWICE) the dog has escaped and been the focus of animal control.

I hate to see any animal destroyed that has value and potential. I also find it distressing that poorly bred animals..ones with the predisposition of biting, are not only allowed to breed, but encouraged to do so!

YOU KNEW the rules to having this breed in the city, yet you felt you were above the need to follow them . You did NOT have adequate arrangements for this dog, else she would not be 'in the pen' now, would she?

There is no one but yourself to blame for this. Accept responsibility and try to do better next time. If you do not have the means to build a secure area...including burying the fence line, then do not do another animal the dis service of dragging them to you home!

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

You people are nuts. In my past life as a dog, I wouldn't have wanted to live with you. It would have been uncomfortable. I would have tried to escape, too. I would rather have lived with Jerry.

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Lighten up, Marion. Your posts make you look like a raving lunatic.

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

Sybil, I'm newagehippiechick? Girl, please.

paladin 11 years, 6 months ago

ms. wench- Its so uncomfartable when one is afflicted with the re-runs. Maybe its a synergy kind of thing; a joint force of such awesome power and magnitude and unstoppable momentum that darkness becomes light, dull becomes bright, ugliness becomes beauty, and falsehood becomes truth. Naaah!

ForThePeople 11 years, 6 months ago

Oh, golly, DaleRogers, leave us not bring ponies into this mishmash.

OMB....ok, now that was the funniest comeback I've read on this whole thread....HEHEHE! Good God....the dog issue is bad enough....but bringing in ponies is opening up a whole 'nuther can of worms. I'm most certain there are 'city ordinances' dealing with farm animals....yikes.....I won't even go there! LOL!

ForThePeople 11 years, 6 months ago

Oh who's stalking who? The manure is getting deep!

Yikes....did someone say vicious farm animals are loose in the city...LOL!

Tychoman 11 years, 6 months ago

I admit, Dale that I was thinking "Evans...Dale Evans?"

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