Lawrence and Douglas County

Lawrence and Douglas county

Fitness club members criticize tree with Birthright message

Some offended by Christmas display in lobby of Body Boutique

December 19, 2005


Three Lawrence women have canceled their memberships at a women-only gym after finding a Christmas tree in the lobby adorned with plastic figures meant to represent fetuses.

The women quit Body Boutique, 2330 Yale Road, last week after entering the business and taking notice of the small tree on a table by the entrance, they said.

"This is insidious. This is in my gym," former member Kelly Jones said.

The fitness center, Jones said, was a place to promote physical and mental health, not to push a polarizing issue, like a woman's right to choose, onto the gym's clientele.

Jones said that she contacted Body Boutique co-owner Lorinda Hartzler last week, telling her that she was offended by the tree and asking her to cancel her 90-day contract.

Body Boutique, 2330 Yale Road, has a Christmas tree in the lobby adorned with plastic figures meant to represent fetuses. Three women recently quit the gym  because they were offended by the ornaments on the tree.

Body Boutique, 2330 Yale Road, has a Christmas tree in the lobby adorned with plastic figures meant to represent fetuses. Three women recently quit the gym because they were offended by the ornaments on the tree.

Hartzler said that Birthright of Lawrence, a local nonprofit corporation that offers pregnancy counseling, contacted the business asking whether it could place a tree in the gym. She said that the company explained that they had no political agenda and that they intended only to assist pregnant women in their decision-making process.

"It's not like the babies are morbid," Hartzler said of the tiny figures in the tree. "It's not graphic at all."

The tree contained a dozen blue and pink stockings, each stuffed with a plastic figure and attached card that labeled the dolls as being "between 11 and 12 weeks old."

The tree also held coupons for Birthright videos, pamphlets and children's clothes. Other coupons included savings on a video titled "After the Choice," another video showing abortion procedures, a brochure on the morning-after pill and a card that offered quart-size, press-and-seal plastic bags.

Birthright of Lawrence intended that people take a figure home in exchange for a $5 donation.

Hartzler said the tree was in support of women and their children during the holidays, and that it was not intended to upset clients.

"I didn't want to offend anyone," Hartzler said.

But Jones and the other women who asked to cancel their membership, who asked not to be named, said that to them the tree sent an anti-abortion message, regardless of what the organization stood for. Jones said that she thought Hartzler was trying to alienate the abortion-rights segment of the gym's membership.

Another member, Pam MacDonald, planned to cancel her membership, saying that her child has to see the tree every time she enters the gym because the tree is so close to the day care there.

"That's not an issue that a 4-year-old needs to be exposed to," MacDonald said.

But other members of the gym voiced support for the decision to put up the plastic-figure adorned tree.

Gym member Kathy Marshall said that she was happy the gym worked with community organizations and took a stand on issues when other businesses did little to support the community.

"I just don't understand what all the fuss is about," Marshall said.

Jones said that in conversations with Hartzler, the gym would not refund any money Jones had already paid for her 90-day contract.

Hartzler said that she would need to speak to members one-on-one to decide if she would refund any money.

"I don't even know if the tree is going to stay there," Hartzler said. "I will take everyone's opinion into consideration."

Carol Rao, a volunteer at Birthright, said that if people were complaining about the tree, she would consider removing it from the gym.

"It makes me sad to think that anything we did offended them," Rao said. "We're not here to fight a fight. We're here to help."


awomack1 12 years, 5 months ago

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Ember 12 years, 5 months ago

11,846 days have passed since the Roe v. Wade ruling.

WW2 lasted roughly 6 years in Europe.

2,190 days.

6 million / 2,190 days = 2,739.7 people died per day in teh Holocaust.

40 million/ 11,846 days = 3,376.6 abortions per day.

Sounds like a huge discrepancy, and it is. A discrepancy in time.

11,846 - 2,190 = 9,656 days difference.

9,656 days * 3,376.6 abortions per day = 32,604,449.6 abortions.

40,000,000 - 32,604,449.6 = 7,395,550.4 abortions in the same length of time as the Holocaust.

1.39 million extra deaths from abortion than in the Holocaust. Again, seems like a drastic difference in numbers, until you realize that only the deaths of the Jewish are recorded in that 6 million. That does not count the homosexuals, people of other than Caucasian ancestry and political/war prisoners that were also killed in the camps.

Marion, flat out, abortion should be legal.

Stop and think about it. We are talking about the sanctity of the human body. Without the mother, the fetus is practically incapable of surviving the gestation.

A fetus, until roughly 22 weeks, give or take a couple of weeks, has all of the ability to survive the umbilical cord being cut as an appedix does after an apendectomy. I think 18 weeks is the absolute bare minimum required for enough cellular division to have occured before medical science can intervene.

I am not a fan of abortion, personally. I am a BIG, BIG fan of allowing others to chose what they wish to do with their lives. I, as a human being, have no right to dictate another's actions in life whereas it concerns their body.

Do you honestly believe that you are so morally superior that you, and others that believe as you do, have the right to remove a single choice from someone electing to do something that is completely legal?

You are almost as bad as Fred Phelps if you say yes. I say almost simply because you have yet to demonstrate at the funeral of a person that had an abortion. You at least have that much decency.

lunacydetector 12 years, 5 months ago

the position of being personally against abortion but favoring another's right to abortion is self contradictory and morally baffling. it is exactly like saying you're against child abuse but if your neighbor does it, you won't stop them.

this isn't a reproductive issue, the reproduction has already occurred.

slavery was once legal. did that make it morally right because the law said it was legal?

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. - i guess that didn't apply to blacks back in the day, just as it doesn't apply to unborn babies today - (and that is the struggle mothers have when they are 'choosing' -to either kill their child or not kill their child).

Steve Jacob 12 years, 5 months ago

Missing the point. Not a business major, but I would think on the first day of class, you learn, "Don't offend the paying customer"

tce73 12 years, 5 months ago

When my daughter (who is 5) asked what the tree was, I happily took one of the babies off the tree and told her, "Look, isnt this neat? This is how you looked when you were in my belly. So little!"

As 5 year olds do, she seemed interested for maybe a minute - tops. No permanent damage done, suffice it to say.

I have no idea why a conversation with a child about this tree has to turn into something more than it is - something so "uncomfortable." You tell them the truth. Its a baby. Is that difficult to explain? Shouldnt be.

grammierre 12 years, 5 months ago

Again the minority are trying to dictate to the majority as in the three people who are offended by this tree. Sounds like the membership voted to have this tree. On the business side of it, I guess it should suffice to refund the money to the offended parties but not take down the tree. Also, has the four year old taken down one of the stockings and read and understood what the tree stands for?

Ember 12 years, 5 months ago

Child abuse is illegal.

Abortion is legal.

It will be a sad day when it is no longer legal. Roe v. Wade has existed too long. It's too ingrained in the American psyche.

I'd rather see abortions done in the U.S. under medical supervision rather than see them done in Mexican back rooms.

Abortions will continue, whether you want them done or not. The problem is no longer how to end the situation. The problem is how to control the situation, but rather how to regulate it properly.

Ember 12 years, 5 months ago

Or perhaps you would like to see a 5-600% jump in foster children, considering we already can't place them nearly as fast as they are entered into the system.

Drain the state coffers that much faster. Always the best solution, apparently.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Maybe I'm making this to simple, but for me, the problem isn't people getting abortions. The problem is people needing abortions. Maybe if the opponents of abortions spent there time, and money, educating people on how not to get an unwanted pregnancy, or there money on research to solve the medical problems that require abortions to save the mothers life. I'm a grown adult, and been around the block a few times. I've never meet anyone who just got an abortion because they didn't "feel" like being a parent this week. There is almost always a larger social problem, it may be abuse, financial, or health relayed. How about fixing those problems. Once again, the anti-abortion folks need to spend more time fixing the problems with society that leads to abortions as opposed to trying to make abortion Illegal.

cms 12 years, 5 months ago

Ember, you hit the issue at its core. Abortions will happen because unwanted pregnancies happen. Vera Wade. Think Vera Wade.

moveforward 12 years, 5 months ago

"the position of being personally against abortion but favoring another's right to abortion is self contradictory and morally baffling"

Yo Lunacydetector...

What do you not understand about dual spheres or morality... about respect for believes... and compassion for difference. You cannot legislate everything that bothers you. You should read more... maybe challenge yourself with a higher level of literature.

Truth, right, correct... they are all subject to values, perspective and context. Are you going to tell me that you have established the 'real' absolutes?

Kookamooka 12 years, 5 months ago

Anybody want to buy my membership to Body Boutique from me? I only have it through February.
Sounds like many of you are anti-choice and would fit right in there. It would be awesome if you all could get together and rent the yoga studio for a bible study! Lorna sounds really religious. It would be the absolute best place to work out! With so many like minded women.

cowboy 12 years, 5 months ago

First Rule of Business ,

Don't speak with your customers about religion or politics . If your offended by this "innocent" display speak with your pocketbooks. The owner cannot claim "dumb" here , she seems to have a successful business but if you offend a large group of people you might want to question these moves. Whats next , "The Intelligent Design Tree "

bankboy119 12 years, 5 months ago


"What do you not understand about dual spheres or morality... about respect for believes... and compassion for difference. You cannot legislate everything that bothers you. You should read more... maybe challenge yourself with a higher level of literature.

Truth, right, correct... they are all subject to values, perspective and context. Are you going to tell me that you have established the 'real' absolutes?"

But yet those who believe in abortion can legislate it so that they can get an abortion? Sounds like they're legislating what's bothering them. People are trying to have Christmas removed and crosses removed because it "bothers" them. What you seem to not understand is that if something bothers you, you should take action against it.

As for the 'real' absolutes, you should probably check up on some reading as well. When I was in school and they were teaching us about 'relative' values they would point to Einstein's Theory of Relativity. That sounded like a convincing argument until you read in a book outside of class that Einstein said "Relativity is for physics, not morals." (The quote was something like that.) It's amazing how distorted some people take the real truth just to push their agenda.

Jeff Barclay 12 years, 5 months ago

I think Lawrence should be applauding Body Boutique! It is those that would drop their memberships that have the agenda. How could making a statement about life ever bother someone?

lkm 12 years, 5 months ago

As a Member I think it is great that my gym does continous fund raisers. I am very proud to say My gym cares about other people and our community. Being a mother with two children and a fabulouse husband and getting through the challenges of raising children IS HARD. I can not imagine raising a child on my own. To me the tree is clearly a way to help mothers who have "chosen" to keep there babies and need assistance! As of now it is a choice. Just like these dicruntle members have the "choice" to walk by the tree and ignore it and go to the work out area and relieve the overly built up tention in there lifes. As for my children walking by the tree daily... They have never even noticed it. But I agree with with the member up above I would simly say look this the size you where in mommy's tummy at 11 weeks old... isn't that cute! As a long term member I would like to say Lorinda Hartzler you rock! KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Dani Davey 12 years, 5 months ago

bankboy - people are trying to get rid of Christmas!? Holy conspiracy Santa! They must be stopped! How are they doing it? Have they proposed legislation to ban Christmas trees? Has President Bush issued a presidential decree wiping the 25th off the calendar? Are they forcing Santa out of the mall and closing all of the stores?

classclown 12 years, 5 months ago

Maybe they should have padlocked them to the doors.

With all the things that have been going on lately, I wouldn't be surprised to see an entire issue of News Of The Weird dedicated to Lawrence.

moveforward 12 years, 5 months ago

"What you seem to not understand is that if something bothers you, you should take action against it."


I do understand Bankboy. But I believe in tollerance. I am not so arrogant to think that only my way is right. It is however, right for me and my family. But then again, maybe you know all and we should ride the heretics out of town.

BTW - regarding your Einstein analogy... don't know that he was one of the great studies of morality... his expertise is elsewhere. Smart people know a lot, but not everything. What I could learn about probability from Michael Jordan...

BJ 12 years, 5 months ago

Don't push your believes on me. I am old enough to make up my own mind. The only thing BB should push on me are push-ups. That's what I'm paying for and nothing else.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago

From Ember:

Stop and think about it. We are talking about the sanctity of the human body.

You are absolutely correct...except I would contend that there is a human body inside the mother also. What about the sanctity of that human? If the baby inside the womb is not a human...then what is it? I dare you to tell my wife (or any other pregnant mother who cares about the child inside of her) that their baby is as significant as an appendix.

An abortion because of risk to mothers health is reasonable. Abortion because of convenience is flat-out murder.

concerned_citizen 12 years, 5 months ago

Who flippin cares? The owner can do whatever they want in their business. The members can work out at any of the other gyms in town, or at the community centers for FREE. You wanna talk choice? There it is. Can't we get back to real news like the size of Mirecki's bruises?

Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho 12 years, 5 months ago

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hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago


By the way...your analogy about the appendix isn't exactly correct. The appendix is always with the mother and doesn't grow or change over time To carry out your analogy, you should have compared the fetus with a tumor. Your argument doesn't sound nearly as impressive when you call the fetus a cancer, does it?

By the way, I am not a BIG fan of abortion either. But I am a BIG, BIG fan of a mother having the right to choose (not to have unprotected sex).

Amandak 12 years, 5 months ago

Body Boutique should, in no way, be bullied into refunding the memberships of those offended by this tree. This is a non-issue and is not even newsworthy. I can't beleive the Journal World even printed this lame story; just to appease a few whiners out there that think ther beliefs and opinions are all that matter. I'm "pro choice" and not the least bit offended by this!! For those that are, don't go to the gym. However, I'm sure there is not a clause in your contract that affords you the right to cancel it beacause you get offended the gym's X-mas decor. Get a life!

ThePoolBoy 12 years, 5 months ago

Hey... I'll buy your membership from you.

Oh, wait. I'm a guy. I can't join your club because I have a penis.

Now, as a business owner, If I opened up a "men's only" club I'd be shut down within minutes.

badger 12 years, 5 months ago

Body Boutique is a privately owned company, if I understand.

They have every right to make political statements and moral stands using their business space.

The people offended by the display are private individuals.

They have every right to take their business elsewhere.

When you mix your politics with your business, you risk losing the business of those who disagree with you. I don't shop in places that publicize politics in opposition to mine, plain and simple. I have a friend who refuses to eat at restaurants if they cite religious reasons for being closed Sunday, and won't give homeless people money if they put 'God Bless' on their signs, because he opposes the wearing of religion on one's sleeve in the arena where you try to get people to give you money.

I think that Birthright was disingenuous when they said they had no political agenda, because the "After the Choice," video has a blatant anti-choice bias, and I've read their brochure on the morning-after pill. It's anything but agenda-free. You don't get to put out things that have an obvious bias and then claim you have no political motives. Are they so unaware of the political currents surrounding abortions? I do have to ask what the plastic bags are for? It didn't make sense to me. Does it mean something I don't know about?

Body Boutique, whether it intended to or not, has politicized its business now. It will gain support among those who agree with those politics, and lose support among those who disagree. I'm bothered by those who say it's 'no big deal,' because to some people it is a very big deal indeed.

I believe that if every member who feels strongly that abortion should be legal cancelled her membership, then Body Boutique would be given an accurate representation, in a very clear financial sense, of the effects of its decision to become involved in a political issue. They may lose a lot of business over it, or just these three women. I can't say.

cf 12 years, 5 months ago

The tree at Body Boutique was in no way taking a stance on abortion or a womans right to choose. The tree was simply benefiting the pregnant women of Lawrence. There was no mention of a pro-life/pro-choice issue. I am a member and I think things have gotten blown out of proportion.

Ember 12 years, 5 months ago

And I contend that the fetus is not a viable lifeform.

6 weeks into a pregnancy, let's sever the umbilical cord and observe what happens. The fetus dies. It is incapable of sustaining it's own life aside from that which the mother provides by sustaining her own life.

Cut the blood flow tot he liver, what happens? The exact same thing.

Cut the blood flow to the thyroid gland, and what happens? The exact same thing.

You are arguing from a philosophical standpoint, whereas I am stating flat out facts of nature. Philosophy is great if you intend on thinking deep thoughts on not having a job, but beyond that, it is subjective for every single rational human being on the face of this planet. I can no more dictate to you what you can and cannot believe than you can for me.

Well, I suppose I can dictate it, but simply because I utter the demand does not mean that you are required in any way, shape or form to adhere to that demand.

Yes, the genetic make-up of the fetus is most assuredly human. I highly doubt a female is going to spawn a litter of puppies or even a single chicken egg. Of course it's human, genetically.

The base truth of the matter is that the brain of a fetus is not capable of performing the duties that it will after a specified number of cellular divisions. A first term abortion is no more heinous than removing a herniated disc from your back or an inflammed gall bladder.

Hate to break it to you, but the human body has it's own form of abortion already.

It's called a miscarriage.

What is the genetic material dividing and multiplying in the womb? By genetic definition, it is definately human.

Is it actually alive?

To be alive, truly alive, one must be conscious of one's environment.

Cut and paste this link and read it. You might find it informative.

Ember 12 years, 5 months ago

Marion, I would suggest a few minor genetic changes or a degree in medicine.

One is impossible and the other is highly improbable. I leave it to you to figure out which term I apply to which option.

frittata65 12 years, 5 months ago

Oh, and for the record, none of the 3 of us are overweight.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 5 months ago

Then go to Iraq, Marion. They'd probably even give you a few medals for doing it.

craigers 12 years, 5 months ago

First things first. The baby is innocent no matter what the circumstances are. And for people above to even hint as saying abortion is doing a good thing by limiting babies being born or being used as a population control is horrible. I agree with you Bankboy about absolutes. By people saying that what is right for them might not be right for us is invoking an absolute. Believing that you are right and sticking to what you believe is not arrogance no matter what mud people want to sling. Life is precious no matter how you want to bundle it.

As for the people wanting their money back... Get real. You signed a contract and that means you are obligated to pay. If you are so offended at this decoration, then you need to chill out and relax. Just because you think it pushes a pro-life motive doesn't mean it is pushing that feeling on everybody else. Remember according to most supporters of abortion it isn't right for you to push your beliefs on me because abortion might be right in my situation but not yours. Well this decor might not offend everybody, so be tolerant and get over it. If not then just suck it up because you aren't getting your money back. Seems like a pretty lame attempt to draw negative publicity on a gym that not only tailors to women but offers daycare for the mothers. I think it is a great gym.

craigers 12 years, 5 months ago

Ember, your examples are flawed as well. What person wouldn't die if all food sources were cut off from them? Are you not a viable life form because you depend on others to farm and make the food so you can consume it? The mother eats and nourishes the child. Just because we can make our own meals doesn't make us any better of a human, it just means that somebody took the time to show us how to do so. If all food was taken away I imagine all of us would die unless we could just live off of water for the rest of our lives.

craigers 12 years, 5 months ago

Okay Marion, it really isn't funny. It is actually nauseating. Could you quit talking about that stuff?

Jamesaust 12 years, 5 months ago

A fetus decorated Christmas tree in a gymnasium? Seems like a particularly poor choice in time, place, taste, and method. That the business owner has a right to such poor judgment is obvious. Perhaps it should be called a "Mirecki tree."

Staci Dark Simpson 12 years, 5 months ago

Lets take bets on how long this post gets. I am betting at least 150. Good for Body Boutique! Abortion is murder no matter how you slice it.(no pun intended) There are so many people out there who want to adopt an American child. Pregnancy isn't an easy thing to go through to give up your child but then we all know what causes pregnancy. Why not do something to avoid it? Children are a gift from God, not to be thrown in a dumpster.

Rossp 12 years, 5 months ago

The tree has nothing to do with the fitness club. They were asked to have the tree placed in this facility so if anyone needed this service they could contact this other company. It is there with the brochures for anyone needing the services to contact this other company. This does not mean the fitness club is for or against abortion. There are many women/families that need to talk to someone and the company (not the fitness club) can be contacted. It's just there letting the people know that this company is there for anyone.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

I don't know that it's "correct" to compare the abortion deaths to the Holocaust. "My outrageous tragedy is worse than your outrageous tragedy"? Whenever we talk about millions of deaths, it's bad. We don't need to debate how much worse 40M is compared to 6M.

I've long considered opening a business, in part so that I can spend my time doing and thinking what I want to do and think. If a private business wants to put up messages with a political or religious message/agenda, that is their right. I wish I had that kind of freedom in my cubicle here in corporate America. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to take their business elsewhere (as the story points out). It's called a free market society.

I keep hearing about the horrors of Mexican back room abortions. We hear about how girls in the 60's would kill themselves attempting the coat-hanger technique. Does anyone have any stats on that? I mean, are we really killing tens of millions of unborn people (who have no say in the decision) in order to save [insert unknown figure] teens (who do have other options)? I find it unfathomable that we (society) actually believe that the relatively few teens who would die (few is my estimation, please look up "relatively" before calling me insensitive) if abortion was illegal are justification for the millions we are now killing every year. Because "some" girls will not choose the alternatives (avoiding pregnancy, adoption, keeping the child) we make it legal to murder millions of unborn people. It's illogical to me. Is there ANYONE posting here today who actually thinks that ALL of these unwanted pregnancies would end in the death of the mother if abortion was illegal? From the standpoint of human economics, wouldn't fewer lives be lost if abortion was illegal? I very much get the impression that abortion is legal for the sake of making life "convenient". Who "wants" to give birth to a child at the age of 15? We are a society that has nearly lost all sense of what it means to take responsibility for its actions. Because someone doesn't want the responsibility (or the shame) of carrying a baby for 9 months, we just kill them. If my wife becomes dependent on me in some way, and I find that inconvenient, will all of you be OK with me dispatching her?

Consider this: if the law was changed, and the mother was required to have the baby and watch it take its first breath and make goo-goo sounds before being killed, killed by the mother's own hands, how many "abortions" would take place? Abortion today is like attacking a village with a cruise missile fired from a ship. It's much easier when you never get face-to-face with the victim. Making abortion legal has given murder an acceptability that it doesn't deserve. Find half a dozen 30-year old women who got abortions as teens and ask them how they now FEEL about what they did. Nature itself tells women to protect their children. Abortion goes against nature.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago


In your point about cutting off the umbilical cord, you are correct. But how does having a dependency on another organism make the baby a non-viable life form? There are thousands of examples of organisms in nature that depend on other organisms for food supply....are these not viable life forms? And of course if we cut the blood flow to the vital organs of a fetus it would die....that would be the case for any one of us humans. Are we not viable life forms? As you can see, these are not philosophical answers to your points, but facts of nature.

You said, "A first term abortion is no more heinous than removing a herniated disc from your back or an inflammed gall bladder...."

Once more your analogy is incorrect. Let's just call it a tumor instead of a fetus. It is really just a cancer growing inside of the mother, right?

You said, "Hate to break it to you, but the human body has it's own form of abortion already.

It's called a miscarriage"

You are correct....what does this have to do with anything? The body naturally has the miscarriage if there is something wrong in the pregnancy (such as a dead fetus).

you said, "To be alive, truly alive, one must be conscious of one's environment"

Is a baby any more conscious of its environment right after it is born than right before it is born? Maybe a newborn baby isn't alive, truly alive....

I'm sorry, but your arguments are just as "philosophical" as mine.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 5 months ago

As the saying goes, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Otherwise, if you are really against abortion, then put your efforts towards limiting unwanted pregnancies and making sure that if a woman does become pregnant, carrying the pregnancy to term won't mean a life of poverty and neglect for both her and her child.

mrsoul 12 years, 5 months ago

A Christmas tree with fetal Jesus ornaments surounded by tapes of aportion procedures to help pregnant women in Lawrence provided by Birthright. This is not a political statement? What would Jesus say about this? This was a covert mission by No Choice that was exposed by 3 women who want to work out in a non threatning environmet who now have to pay for 90 days of non-membership because they would have to walk by a tree that tells a lie.
Would the business hang condoms on the tree? Would the business add helpful information for women and girls who have been impregnated through incest and rape? This issue is not so trivial to just say they are helping women who are pregnant. Many of these women don't get to go home to a 3 garage house in fairyland. How about a diaper collection. A formula collection. Warm clothes and blankets. A condom collection. Provide some real help that is not backed by a political agenda to make pregnancy a torture for a signifiant number of women. As for the Biology of what a fetus is to a woman? Basically it is a parasite that sucks life out of the woman until it is "born". It really knows nothing until it is about 2 years old or so. A gym for women only was a great idea. Now it is a gym for Anti-Choice women. To me that seems sad.

mcoan 12 years, 5 months ago

When each person who is anti-choice (remember, they are still the minority in survey after survey) stands up and says:

1.) "I want you to raise my taxes so that any person making less than 80% of the median income can get free birth control," and 2.) "I will adopt a baby 'of color' this year" and 3.) "Only comments on this issue from women should be considered."

Then, and only then, will I believe they truly understand the issues surrounding abortion. And then, and only then, will I believe they are SERIOUS about reducing abortions, instead of just legislating morality for the MAJORITY.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago

I think Jesus would say that every life is sacred....What do you think He would say mrsoul?

hawkeyes 12 years, 5 months ago

In my line of work, I see MANY women who use abortion as birth control. IT IS INFURIATING!!! Is having a baby really so tragic that you must kill a human being? These women see it as an inconvenience that they have to scrounge up another $300 (or more) to cover their mistake. It's no big deal...just like they have to cover a home repair or something.

"Oops, had too much booze at the Cadillac Ranch last night and had a fling. Guess another baby dies while I give up my allowance for another Prada purse! Mommy and Daddy would be so mad if I made them a Granparent right now."

"Darn. The guy that I am dating isn't really 'The One'. Bye, bye, baby. I've got to meet some other fish in the sea."

"Sorry, little one...I have a big promotion coming up at work and this just isn't convenient."

Some of these women conceive after an abortion and ironically have problems carrying to term. They are devastated that they have lost an infant at the same gestation that they had an abortion in previously. "A bunch of cells" yesterday and a real baby tomorrow.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

I may be beating a dead horse here, but did nobody read my post from this morning. The simple fact that people are still debating back and forth about a stupid tree just proves my point. Everyone seems very passionate about this, people are more concerned about who's wrong and who's right that nothing is being done solve the problem. I think it's fair to say that even those of us who are pro-choice don't want to see women getting abortions. So there's common ground, Pro-life and Pro-choice advocates can agree, we'd all like to lessen the amount or abortions. As I said before why can't we all work together to end the NEED for abortions, then abortions wouldn't be happening. Everybody wins, people have there freedom and babies aren't being killed. It's gonna take compromise on everyone's part, I'm speculating here but I'm guessing a lot of the Pro-life people are also anti-contraception. Well, pro-life people, would you rather have babies killed or just simply not conceived? Why do I feel I'm the only one thinking out side the box on this? And Pro-chose people, like myself, I'm ok with a law or policy that looks at a woman's situation, and if there isn't a health risk to the mother or baby, the women is of reasonable means to support a child, and other than the simple fact she doesn't want the baby she can't get an abortion.

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

I want to make sure I have this right: a business doesn't say "Merry Christmas", so we're all exhorted to boycott and exercise the power of the market. There's nothing political or controversial about the retailer until people start wanting to hear "Merry Christmas" and accusing anyone who doesn't say it of waging a "war".

Another business puts up a display from a local organization, and the display promotes a particular, controversial political stance. The customers of that business who would choose to stop patronizing that business are called "whiners", they need to chill out, they have no right to pull their business. Just making sure we have the situation right...

As for absolutes, I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion. I don't want my wife, my sister, my friends, to have one. I especially don't want them to be in a position where they would feel they needed one. I also don't feel that it's my job to tell everyone what they should be doing. The idea that what I believe should be the law simply because I believe it is absurd. For example, I disagree with the display of anti-choice displays, whether on a tree or on the street, that highlight pictures of aborted fetuses. I don't think there should be a law against it.

OldEnuf, of course we don't have stats on how many teens in the 60's went to back-alley abortions. It was illegal and collecting data on illegal activity is, almost by definition, a hard thing to do. How many women are prostitutes? How many drug users do we have? How many illegal immigrants cross the border each day? Neither you nor I know the answers to those questions, and even the most expert opinions are still not accurate.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

I hope there isn't some rule that says I can't post two comments in a row but I'll take my chances. Hawkeyes, I hope to have an advocate in you. Would you agree that the problem is the way people think about abortions? Wouldn't you rather see less people needing abortions coming into your office with the kind of attitudes you describe? Again, I suggest we spend our time and money fixing attitudes, not trying to change laws or policies.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago

Our governments already legislates morality (murder, theft, etc.). Why should the murder of un-born children not fall into that category?

Sigmund 12 years, 5 months ago

"This is insidious. This is in my gym," former member Kelly Jones said. Ummm, wrong Kelly, it is not your gym, you're just a member. Find the pro choice gym to go to, or learn to deal with the fact that intelligent people honestly disagree on this issue. You might even try gently explaining your reasons why you believe what you believe.

I really wish I had time to follow and contribute to this debate today, but alas I don't. Suffice to say that abortion is legalized killing of a baby and likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago

I agree completely with the concept of decreasing the number of abortions. Having legalized abortion is NEVER going to help decrease the number of abortions. Unfortunately, decreasing the number of aborted babies is not the agenda of the pro-death is conserving the rights of the mother.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago


I'm with you on all but #3. Only a woman can place a value on a life? I'm not sure if we will adopt within the next year, but we are heading in that direction, as are some of our friends.

Bozo: I remember a good political cartoon in the 80s that was criticizing Geraline Ferraro for being against abortion (she was Catholic), but supporting the dems pro-choice platform. The cartoon was a drawing of Pres. Lincoln giving a speech. The caption said "if Geraldine Ferraro had been Lincoln's speech writer..." and the word bubble above Lincoln said "Hey, I'm against slavery... but if you want to have a slave or two, that's OK with me". What you wrote makes no sense to me. "If you don't like murder, then don't do murder, but don't prevent me from doing it". Roe v. Wade is as entrenched in our laws and our culture as much as slavery was in 1860. And, just like slavery, it needs to go away.

What's wrong with society? We don't know the difference between right and wrong anymore. This is why we have democrats wanting to legalize the killing of children and a republican president who invades a sovereiegn nation for no good reason. Even the late great Carl Menninger was concerned enough about this trend to write a book called "Whatever Happened to Sin?". As a mental health pioneer, he recognized that what was causing us so much harm was that we have lost touch with the idea that morality and sin are not "relative", "situational" or "conditional". Wrong is wrong, every day of the week. Wrong applies to all people equally. Allowing ourselves to cozy up to what is wrong is making us all sick.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Hobb, why do feel that legalized abortion will never decrease the number of abortions? If people don't need them, then there would be less abortions, legal or otherwise.

Aiko 12 years, 5 months ago

Pro Abortion is the women's individual right!

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago


Why? Just because it is? Just because you have never lived in a world where that wasn't the case? Why?

I constantly challenge myself on why I believe the things I believe to better understand why I think what I think. WHY are women in our country entitled to kill their unborn children? Someone, from a morality standpoint, make an arguement. Abortion is not only killing our unborn, it is also killing our capacity to even understand right from wrong. When we kill children because it is a "woman's individual right" even though our own consciences tell us it's wrong, we are destroying our very hearts. We have turned on ourselves as a race of people when we cannot see that killing our children is wrong, and that being wrong, it supercedes how we have chosen to define individual rights.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago


Because it hasn't yet. Do you really think the number of abortions has dropped since abortion has become legal? And why would legalized abortion decrease the number of abortions. Making abortions legal, doesn't decrease the "need" (want) for them. In fact, the opposite has happened. I'm curious why you think that legalizing abortions would ever decrease the "need" for one. are right. This ultimately comes down to personal responsibility...not personal rights and entitlement. People need to grow up and take responsibility for THEIR actions!

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Hobb- I never said that legal abortions decreased anything. I tried to say, that if time and money were spent on solving the social and medical problems that caused women to get abortions then it won't matter that abortion was or wasn't legal. Now, I'm not dumb enough to feel that there ever will be a time when no one in the whole US will want or need an abortion. What I'm hoping is we can get to a place where people don't get pregnant until then want a child, and medical advances are made that eliminate the health risks that endanger the mothers or babies life where a abortion is an option.

I'm just trying to point out that it seems no one is working on getting to that sort of environment right now. Also, to turn the question back at you, what makes you think that by making abortion Illegal would stop them from happening. Yes, people not willing to break the law may not get one, but there are going to be people willing to break the law, try to terminate a pregnancy in other fashions etc. Once again, it doesn't matter what's legal or Illegal, the problem again is people needing/wanting an abortion. Not the act it's self.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

Babarubu said "I also don't feel that it's my job to tell everyone what they should be doing. The idea that what I believe should be the law simply because I believe it is absurd." Let's put this in perspective. Do you think the systematic extermination of the Jews was wrong? Would you be OK if Bush stated that he didn't really see what was wrong with it, and was considering signing a bill into law that would make the killing of Jews legal? Would you say "it's absurd for me to tell the Jew-killers that they shouldn't do that"? I cannot believe you actually think what you wrote. It would disturb you if a family member did it. Why? Because you have a conscience, you know that it's wrong, and it would be a tragedy if it happened in your family. If it's wrong, STAND AGAINST IT! Your wishy-washy approach is what is making us so weak as a nation. What should the posted speed limit be on 23rd Street? I don't know, and I don't think it's a big issue. THAT is the kind of topic where we say "Hey, it's not a big deal, so keep your laws off my body", which is why speeding only get's you a small fine. Killing people is different. We execute people for murder, but if someone wants to have an abortion, somehow it's just a choice for them to make. Scott Peterson got convicted of killing his unborn son, but if his wife had aborted that same child, we'd be OK with it? SOMEONE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME from a moral standpoint. HOW can that baby HAVE value and NOT HAVE value all based on the "situation"? Who here is willing to post that they believe that Scott Peterson could have used an abortion defense regarding the death of the child?

woodlawn 12 years, 5 months ago

It's a business. They have the right to do what they want. Luckily I don't have to support it or get into a drama debating the pros and cons of choice.

I do plan to cancel my membership, not beat them up for their politics I happen to disagree with. I do support their right to say it - I'm just not paying for it is all.

My dollar is my vote in this republic. I can withdraw it from businesses I don't like and use it to buy fairly traded merchandise or whatever I think is good use of my resources. I don't think lecturing them one way or another will raise the level of debate one iota.

mom_of_three 12 years, 5 months ago

Lacy Peterson was 8+ months pregnant. You can't debate an 8 month old fetus, and an 8 week embryo/fetus (assuming an abortion). It is two different cases. Two different scenarios.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

Abortion is a human sacrifice. Like a Meso-American tribe killing children to the God of [whatever]. We are killing our own children for whatever selfish means we think we need/deserve/have-a-right-to. "I don't WANT the obligation of this child, so I will kill it for my own ends/goals that I feel I'm entitled to pursue." Do you think those ancient tribes were doing the right thing?

How many of us were upset by the way the Catholic church handled the sexual abuse scandals? Speaking for myself, I was upset because I saw a church that refused to openly address the situation at hand because of the financial consequences of doing so. Really exposing those priests would have cost them their reputation and a lot of money. So, they decided to take the moral low road instead of taking a stand and saying "we need to do what's right, even if the consequenses are great". The result? Generations of boys had their innocence sacrificed for the worldly agendas of the church. It was just like abortion: allow the the kids to be killed for selfish reasons. How many of you pro-choice people find these actions by the church to be "wrong"? How come it's wrong in one context, but not another context? Someone help me understand.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

So mother of three, you would have not called the death of Lacy's child an offense if she had only been 3-months along? Give me an honest answer to this direct question: what kid of emotions would have welled up in you to find out that Scott had killed his son who was only 3 months old? No biggie, or disgust?

spikey_mcmarbles 12 years, 5 months ago

If men gave birth, abortion would be legal.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago


Do I think that abortions would stop if made illegal? No. But even if one mother decided not to get an abortion because of the law, then in my opinion the law was successful.

Of course the solution is to make it so abortion isn't an option. But isn't that what birthright is about? They are just providing support for the mother and giving options (such as adoption) for the baby. Why is this wrong to people who are Pro-choice? The people at birthright are not stopping people from having abortions, they just want to provide more options (choices). Isn't that what you pro-choicers are all about?

StirrrThePot 12 years, 5 months ago

Once again, it is Christmas and everyone has something to complain about. Now, instead of the presence of a tree, it is what's on the tree.

I saw the same little tree in my church's office and didn't think a thing about it because it was in a church. I can see why this may cause some adverse reaction if displayed in a public business place. At the same time, I think people over-reacted. I think the business owners thought they were doing good by supporting an organization that helps women.

Let's face it, EVERYONE has an agenda these days. This country is so divided it baffles me. We'll never win any war in Iraq qhen we can't even get along with and respect the views of people in our own country. It is to the place where we think every little gesture is political--and maybe it is. Who the hell knows anymore?

badger 12 years, 5 months ago

craigers, I think the women involved do have the right to ask for their money back, though they shouldn't automatically expect to get it, and they shouldn't sue if they don't.

A dissatisfied customer, whatever the reason for the dissatisfaction, has the right to say, "Your product is no longer usable to me, and I want a refund on what I've already paid." A business owner or manager has the right to decide (as this article says that Ms. Hartzler will be doing on an individual basis) whether or not to give that refund, lose the money, and have someone go away maybe having a little less bad blood, or refuse the refund and risk bad word-of-mouth references - bad references they might have gotten anyway.

If the presence of this tree truly makes the club unusable for them, then they aren't able to use services for which they've paid and requesting a refund is not inappropriate. Before people go off about 'get over it' remember that a lot of women use health clubs not just to work out, but to relax, to de-stress, and to go someplace where maybe they don't have to worry about politics, or debate, or people having heated political fights while they exercise. It seems that the topic of abortion has reared its head in that health club, and as it's one with no easy answers (unless you're a flippant raving moron willing to ignore the sociopolitical consequences of keeping OR changing policies on abortion) there will be debate and discussion, which is likely to become heated. Regardless of my politics on the matter, having my place of relaxation polarized and politicized would make it less relaxing for me, and so I'd get less value out of it.

badger 12 years, 5 months ago

I'll also say that it's pretty interesting to see the number of people here vehemently opposing the idea that a woman might have an abortion. I don't seem to recall most of you jumping into a conversation the other day in which a woman was attacked as 'irresponsible' because she and her husband chose not to abort. A number of the most vocal abortion opponents were notably absent in supporting her in that choice (while some of the most vocal choice proponents were notably present in supporting her decision), and some were among those adamantly insisting that she ought not to be having the child because to do so was irresponsible.

The crux of the argument in favor of legalized abortion comes not when someone who has had unprotected sex and taken no precautions gets judged and hated on for being pregnant, because it's easy to say, "This person should not have chosen to take risks." The crux comes when someone who is within the 'acceptable' realm of who society allows to get pregnant is judged and hated on, because not everyone who is faced with a unplanned pregnancy was sexually irresponsible, and those of you with flippant, "She had a choice; it's called not having unprotected sex," responses seem to either forget or conveniently ignore that.

So, you all just go on with your pigeonholing and name-calling, but this thread just proves my point, that there is no way a discussion that touches on abortion cannot become emotionally and politically charged, which leaves those who put up that tree either woefully naive about its effect, or blatantly lying about their expectations of its reception.

Quo_Vadimus 12 years, 5 months ago

"and a card that offered quart-size, press-and-seal plastic bags."

Can someone please explain to me the purpose of the quart-size, press-and-seal plastic bags?

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

We really need to look at hawkeyes' comments. It is our acceptance of recreational sex that also needs to be addressed. Anyone having sex with strangers (men and women) is sorely lacking in self-esteem and self-respect. The moral roots of these ills need to be addressed as mental health and spiritual health issues. But, because we ARE so accepting of recreational sex (and the many emotional disorders that lead people to participate in such activities), we cannot IMAGINE how we'd make it without the ability to abort. When society learns about how "special" sex is supposed to be, we'll quite cheapening it, and we will all be a little better off. And, we will not be so addicted to abortion.

But, I'm not holding my breath on that one. It has taken me some time to gain an understanding of it myself.

craigers 12 years, 5 months ago

badger, I would have to disagree because these women agreed to a contract for the membership. Just like a retail store as you were referring to has a return policy for products that don't work or aren't what they wanted, so does the gym. Usually gyms sell you a membership and just because you don't want to go to the gym anymore you are under a contract that has to be paid. They are legally binding documents, so I don't think they deserve their money back. That is why you can sign up for smaller terms of length for these memberships, in case things come up and you don't want to renew, but you can't just expect to get your money back when you already gave the money to the client for the services. If the gym was going to be closed, then I see a need for a refund, but the services are still available but those that paid for them are just choosing not to go. I don't think they can legally call for a refund.

Should I be able to ask for a refund for the days I don't think I will feel like going to the gym in the future of my contract? I don't think the gym owners would give in to that and I don't think just because these women don't feel like going back to that gym, I can't see a refund being likely.

craigers 12 years, 5 months ago

I sometimes find the smell of other people in the gym make me feel like that area is unusable but I can't call for a refund due to smelly people. And the music they play at the gym isn't my type of music, but instead of trying to crush the music in the gym I go to I ignore it and have my MP3 player that plays my type of music. I don't think I should make the gym change just because I don't like something about it.

Kookamooka 12 years, 5 months ago

The quart sized plastic bags are for the mothers to put over their heads so instead of having an abortion they can just kill themselves. Which, by the way, may be the only option these women will have if abortion is illegal. People don't remember how, in the olden days, before abortion was safe and legal, women would bleed to death performing their own. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop it from happening. The consequences are just much more horrifying. It almost becomes a debate between the life of a "potential" person and the life of a "fully actualized" person. And the men who knock these women up, they have to be held responsible for something! But what?

avhjmlk 12 years, 5 months ago

bankboy, I have to take issue with your 7:48 post:

"But yet those who believe in abortion can legislate it so that they can get an abortion? Sounds like they're legislating what's bothering them."

The problem with your logic is that the pro-choice platform and the pro-life platform are not exact opposites of each other. The pro-life platform is to remove the legal option of abortion--to tell people that, because those with the power to craft laws believe abortion should be illegal, it is now illegal and unavailable. The pro-choice platform is to retain the legal option of abortion, not to force all women to have abortions.

avhjmlk 12 years, 5 months ago

Quo, my guess is that they are representing the size of what has been aborted, but I'm just guessing.

avhjmlk 12 years, 5 months ago

Or, I suppose, what hasn't been aborted, if the tree is referring to the 6-7 week fetus.

avhjmlk 12 years, 5 months ago

Sorry, 11-12 weeks. Just reread the article.

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

I go to Body Boutique. I don't really want any religious-based stuff in the gym I go to, since my contract did not state that "you will be exposed to various religious/political views while trying to get yourself healthy." I would have gone to a different gym if I had known that they would be doing stuff like this. Unfortunately, my membership isn't up until April. I will not be renewing my membership. Plus, I think those 3 women may have left because the gym is overcrowded with only 9 treadmills, 2 ellipticals, 10 bikes and way too many unused stairsteppers. Crappy gym, crappy attitude.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Hobb-Your view is to simplistic, what if a law was passed and that one babies life was saved. You view that as successful? What if as a result of that same law, 10 mothers died because they weren't allowed the abortions that would of saved there life? How is that success?
I've all so never been to a clinic, pregnant, considering my options, but I have a hard time believing that there are doctors and nurses telling women, "You know what you need? An abortion, that's the only route for you" I don't by that. Like I said, people need to stop spending time and money trying to pass laws or challenge RvW and instead do something that keeps women from needing abortions. Education, research, and support for women who are in a position where they are considering abortion.

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

"Do you think the systematic extermination of the Jews was wrong? Would you be OK if Bush stated that he didn't really see what was wrong with it, and was considering signing a bill into law that would make the killing of Jews legal? Would you say "it's absurd for me to tell the Jew-killers that they shouldn't do that"? "

Being Jewish, and, you know, human, I would not agree with Bush's actions. I think genocide is a bad thing, and I'm in a pretty clear majority on that point.

But if you honestly think that the killing of a person who has been born and is self-sufficient (biologically speaking) is medically or morally equivalent to ending a pregnancy in which the fetus is unable to live on its own, biologically reliant on a self-sufficient person to survive, then there's no middle ground for us to debate. So why would I oppose abortion for my family and friends? You leap to the assumption that I would rely on a moral argument. In fact I think that abortion is a difficult medical procedure that carries a number of physical consequences, and treatment for those consequences has been stigmatized by people who think they have dominion over what happens inside someone else's body. By the way, I oppose most plastic surgery on the same grounds.

You bring up Lacy Peterson, and I think her murder was a terrible thing, and I think Scott Peterson should spend the rest of his life in jail as a result of his conviction. I fundamentally disagree with fetal-murder laws. I don't believe you can murder something that isn't alive, and an organism cannot be alive if it is biologically unable to survive without constant physical attachment to another organism. So you identify a problem with the laws: we have fetal-murder statutes on the one hand and legalized abortion on the other. I agree that it is a problem, and rather than imposing one sense of morality on everyone, we should not impose such morality when there is a conflict and instead abolish fetal-murder statures. If you are morally opposed to abortion, then don't have one, don't support one. If someone else having an abortion in some way affects your moral standing, then I think your system of morals is out of whack.

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

And since I forgot to mention it, the state has an abiding interest in controlling speeds on the roadways, chief among them, keeping living people from becoming otherwise through the recklessness of someone else. That's a very different thing than a medical decision which does not impact the state.

breeze 12 years, 5 months ago

I just wonder how Birthright and Body Boutique felt that this tree would promote the idea of peace on earth and goodwill towards man(kind). This should be a season of kindness and understanding, not perpetuating division and upset.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 5 months ago

"But Jones and the other women who asked to cancel their membership, who asked not to be named, said that to them the tree sent an anti-abortion message, regardless of what the organization stood for."

I find crosses offensive, does that mean we can remove them and/or rip them off people's necks? You know, actually I find churches or any sign of organized religion offensive, I think I'll protest and make them remove that as well. While we're at it we'll remove any White House memorabilia from Lawrence because how Bush made us go to war offends me. See where I am going with this....DEAL with it! Seriously! The center gives women a choice if they choose to stay pregnant or if they choose to have an abortion. I think those two women should be ashamed of themselves. Also, since a simple baby is apparantly offensive, does this mean I shouldn't market my aborted fetus Antenae toppers for vehicles?

frittata65 12 years, 5 months ago

Marion, are you implying that Birthright would like plastic baggies for when they perform abortions?

Godot 12 years, 5 months ago

Good for you, Ms. Hartzler. The women who do not want other women to know that abortion is not the only choice, who are so afraid of information that they would suppress it, should "choose" another workout facility, one where they will be more comfortable. Maybe they should check with Planned Parenthood for a list of gyms that restrict their membership to females who are pro-abortion, and that ban all forms of communication that do not express the Planned Parenthood party line.

I just hope they don't show up at my gym and start complaining about free speech there, too.

My advice is, don't give them a refund unless your membership agreement says people can back out their contracts just because they are offended by perfectly legitimate free expression.

Linda Aikins 12 years, 5 months ago

Please don't encourage Marion. I think anyone that gets removed this much ought to be removed permanently. Remember our dear friend extreme_makeover (may he rest in peace)?

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

It is funny to me that all those people on here who support Body Boutique's "free speech" right, just happen to be pro-life. They'd all be freaking out if Planned Parenthood provided handouts at their gyms. This is a gym, not a place to teach religion and politics. BodyBo should be honest with prospective members before they join. They should let them know that the gym will be a place for religious/political engagements. We just want to exercise, so stop ruining a place where we go to get away from "all of it."

planetwax 12 years, 5 months ago

I'm a ten year member of that gym. I saw the plastic fetuses stuffed into stockings, hanging on the tree. I took one out, looked at it, raised an eyebrow, thought it was tasteless, picked up my child from the daycare, then left. I hope they do take it down, but it's really not that big of a deal, and won't determine my status as a member. There have been better reasons to leave, but I keep going since I like an all-women gym and the friends I see there. Oh, btw, I have a picture of a real fetus, the one I lost via an ectopic pregnancy that ruptured. The hospital folks never asked me if I wanted to keep it for burial, but threw it away before I had a chance to ask for it. On the other hand, that guy got to keep his amputated foot. Go figure. It's a wild, wild, world and there are clearly too many humans on this earth for me to be forcing other humans to give birth against their will. But, really...that's not what the article was even about.

Miyagi_Rules 12 years, 5 months ago

Godot and DaREEKKU, I completely agree that this is an over reaction, but I don't feel bad for the business in this case. They should know the heated and politically charged nature of abortion and unless they were truly wanting to make a statement they should have avoided the controversy.


I disagree with you, the pro-choice and pro-life camps ARE direct opposites of each other when it comes to the basic question of whether or not a fetus is considered to be a human life?

If your answer is "yes" then you have to attempt to legislate morality, because I think most, if not all, of us would agree that it's wrong to take an innocent human life.

If your answer is "no" then a fetus is little more than a bunch of cells growing and feeding off of its mother, which makes it perfectly legitimate to terminate the pregnancy, and also makes it problematic to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

Because of these two basic stances the abortion issue will probably never be resolved (maybe I can win the title of 'captain obvious' for this statement). All of the other debates about how we as a society would deal with having thousands of unwanted babies enter the world, or even the fact that "people will still have abortions" are completely secondary to the basic question.

NewBie 12 years, 5 months ago

Confrontation: I have a great idea - if youre so dissatisfied with the gym and its "crappy attitude," simply dont go back. Work out on your own, where you can avoid these "religious/political engagements."

Ive noticed that Body Boutique supports numerous organizations, and I think thats great. Am I pro-choice? Yes. Was I offended? No. Get over it.

So sorry to hear you wont be renewing your membership. Im sure that will be a great loss. Maybe this is a great way to weed out people like yourself. Ahh, maybe then the other members will have less of a "crowd" to deal with.

Good riddance.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Weather your pro-life or pro-choice, the middle 80% of those camps would be able to find a middle ground where babies where being protected and personal freedoms aren't be taken away. The problem is it's the extreme 10% on each end that are running for office, challenging laws, protesting clinics, etc. Those far left and right individuals aren't going to be reasonable. If those of us that fall in the middle, slightly leaning one way or the other would just come together and find a common middle ground then this debate would be solved. Of course, how something like that can happen is beyond my metal capabilities. It is a wonderful thought all the same.

NewBie 12 years, 5 months ago

Well said, 76_IH_Scout_Dad, but youre right - it wont happen. SAD!

StirrrThePot 12 years, 5 months ago

"It is funny to me that all those people on here who support Body Boutique's "free speech" right, just happen to be pro-life. They'd all be freaking out if Planned Parenthood provided handouts at their gyms. This is a gym, not a place to teach religion and politics."

Excuse me, but I am pro-life and I see pro-choice literature, bumper stickers, etc. everywhere and do not freak out about it. Who cares? People have made mountains out of molehills with this because they think they've been oppressed. Real life means that there are people who disagree with you, so get over it.

I still think it was a matter of the business not thinking about their actions and not a legitimate attempt to push their beliefs on people. It doesn't make it right, it just makes it a mistake.

For crying out loud, BB said they were sorry--why does everything have to be a f** conspiracy? Thank you to the Bush Admin and extremists on all sides for turning making this country paranoid and fearful of our own countrymen's actions.

allateup 12 years, 5 months ago

These women should not be returned their membership fee. Body Botique did nothing to render their membership unuseable.

NewBie 12 years, 5 months ago

"Too bad the owner didn't pull the display at the first complaint, seeing it was going to be a problem, like removing a poster from the window that's offensive."

Actually, from what I understand, I think the owner only got one complaint - last Friday - and the tree was taken down this morning at 5am.

But lets take this opportunity to bad mouth all the practices that a particular business enforces. Thats a great idea - way to focus on the topic at hand.

avhjmlk 12 years, 5 months ago

My point was, really, that legislating the pro-choice camp's "morality" does not force someone who is against abortion to have one. However, legislating the pro-life camp's "morality" does, indeed, prevent someone who is pro-choice from getting a legal abortion. The pro-choice camp's legislative outcome, therefore, is not exactly opposite that of the pro-life camp.

76_IH_Scout_Dad 12 years, 5 months ago

Newbie, thanks for pat on the back, appreciate it.

This world isn't black and white, right or wrong. Abortion seems to be one of a few topics that for some reason people can't come together on and find a compromise. I'm pro-choice, and I don't want to see kids aborted for no other reason than an unwanted pregnancy. But, I want my rights and my wives rights protected, some day we may be in a position where for health reasons we may want to consider all our options. And I want all of those options protected and available to us. I also know there are a million different scenarios, and one policy or law can cover every single scenario.

I often wonder while driving out west towards CO, when I see all the "Abortion Kills" billboards how many of those die hard pro-life supporters have adopted children. How many have volunteered to talk to teen's about responsibility, choices. I wonder how many of those fine people have rescued a young women who's being abused by a husband or worse, a father. Just idle thoughts that run threw my mind as I eat up the miles heading west. I usually stop thinking about it as I zoom past the adult super store and notice the 15 half rusted out pickup trucks parked out front.

allateup 12 years, 5 months ago

What if Planned Parenthood were allowed to put a tree right next to Birthright's? Would there be this controversy? One would wonder what kind of ornaments would be hung on their tree?

Kookamooka 12 years, 5 months ago

The planned parenthood tree would sport condoms. Are they offensive? (maybe to the MEN who should WEAR them!)

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

allateup--Planned Parenthood provides a number of services that may or may not have anything to do with pregnancy or abortion. If they put a tree up advertising those services, I'd have no problem with it. If they were to put up a tree promoting the abortion services they provide, I would have a serious problem with it.

allateup 12 years, 5 months ago

bubaruba....I don't think the ornaments that were hung on the Birthright Tree were offensive were they?

allateup2 12 years, 5 months ago

The only thing PP promotes is abortion. They don't need to promote any other sevices because the public schools hand out condomns with our tax dollars.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

Bubarubu stated "an organism cannot be alive if it is biologically unable to survive without constant physical attachment to another organism".

So... are you saying it's dead? Or that it's a vegatable? Would you mind if poeple started eating aborted fetuses, or making dog food out of it or fertilizer? Why not? If it's not a person, not human, not living... then it's like a chicken, only less than a chicken because a chicken is alive. Give me an answer to that question: what is the morally correct thing to do with those aborted fetuses, and WHY is that the correct thing to do?

It IS alive, regardless of whether or not it is viable on it's own. It is human, and unique from it's mother by virtue of it's DNA. It is NOT a GROWTH to be removed like someone would lance a boil.

Apart from these arguements about rights and what is or isn't alive is this fundamental issue: do people still value people? Do we long to see the next generation live and grow, or do we lack affection for the well-being of others? It has been said that a culture can be measured by how it cares for it's weakest members. What do our laws and beliefs regarding abortion say about our culture (who is more vulnerable than a fetus)? You say that it's not viable on it's own? If I put a one day old baby out in the middle of a pasture and walk away, will that baby prove itself "viable", or will it die? Then why not kill it as well? Do you see what happens when our lack of appreciation for life is diminished by our "relative" approach to morality? The logic behind abortion can be used to justify many atrocities.

Change fetal murder laws? Do you realize how many people include sonograms as part of their family photos, and how many people name their not-yet-born children? If they lost one of those children due to a criminal act, would you tell them "it wasn't a person anyway"?

wonderhorse 12 years, 5 months ago


"There are thousands of examples of organisms in nature that depend on other organisms for food supply....are these not viable life forms?"

Yes, they are viable life forms. We call them parasites.

Godot 12 years, 5 months ago

Confrontation wrote: "I go to Body Boutique. I don't really want any religious-based stuff in the gym I go to."

Then I assume you do not attend gyms that offer yoga or tai chi, either.

Godot 12 years, 5 months ago

Miyagi: "They should know the heated and politically charged nature of abortion and unless they were truly wanting to make a statement they should have avoided the controversy."

It was a display about helping mothers and babies. Since when is that controversial? It was the perception of the women who complained that it was about abortion. That was not the intent of the display.

With your line of thinking, they'd better close their day care, too, because seeing all those children around the gym might offend the women who could not or chose not to have children.

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

NewBie: I wouldn't go back to the gym, if they'd stop charging me. Until then, I'm forced to put up with waiting for a machine. Also, I don't care if body boutique supports other organizations, as long as they are health related. Ms. Thang can run the place and donate her money to these organization in private. Don't push your views on me.

I imagine I won't be the only one leaving this place. There is such little response from the management. Maybe they should put more time into creating a better gym for fitness, instead of finding ways to share their ideologies.

lkm 12 years, 5 months ago

I'll tell you whte is wrong with society. SIN

badger 12 years, 5 months ago

allateup said:

"bubaruba....I don't think the ornaments that were hung on the Birthright Tree were offensive were they?"

That depends on what the plastic bags were for. Some have implied a couple of pretty disgusting interpretations of them, and no one has supplied an inoffensive reason for sealable quart bags to be on a Christmas tree.

Allateup2 said:

"The only thing PP promotes is abortion. They don't need to promote any other sevices because the public schools hand out condomns (sic) with our tax dollars."

Wow, your ignorance is showing.

Planned Parenthood is one of the few places left where poor women can get low-cost prenatal care, annual health exams, birth control, STD advice and diagnoses, and cervical cancer screenings.

They offer a wide variety of services and options to people who have no insurance or no jobs. for the last 15 years or so, I have taken friends there for such widely varied reasons as pap smears, women's wellness exams, post-rape counseling and examinations (yes, including the availability of a morning after pill), pregnancy testing, pregnancy counseling (which actually focused on the strong need for prenatal wellness and mentioned abortion only once, as in, "Abortion is also an option, and I can make more information available to you if you'd like," before going back to a much more detailed discussion of vitamins and diet), depo provera, birth control pills, and STD testing.

It's people like you that stand outside clinics and chant Bible verses, and someone probably not very much different from you who slapped the pregnant woman I was escorting into a PP clinic for a low-cost routine prenatal exam (because neither her job nor her husband's offered medical insurance) in the abdomen with a Bible a few years back. He used a lot of words I won't repeat here, but thankfully the strength of his arm was as weak as his understanding of the New Testament, and she didn't lose the baby.

The thing is, there is no forum, anywhere, into which the notion of discussing abortion can be introduced and not raise strong feelings one way or the other. When a business chooses to be that forum, it gets to deal with the effects of people's strong emotional reactions, good and bad.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

Wonderhorse's comment is interesting because the whole "it's not alive, it's not a person" argument leads us to a place where we actually do start thinking of the unborn as something to distain. And why not? Would I kill what I don't hate? I pull weeds from my garden because I hate the weeds. I place no value on the weeds. I wish my toenails would quit growing, and I have yet to understand why I have toenails, so my having to trim them is an adversarial relationship of sorts. A parasite is exactly what an unborn child is when we seek to exterminate it like so many heartworms. Not a family member, but a mistake and an unwanted creature. We can't say "feed the children" in the same breath that says "kill the unborn children". But we somehow do.

Jklshkl 12 years, 5 months ago

Here's the scoop on the baggies... The cards were not offering the baggies, but requesting donations of them. Each baggie holds up to 5 diapers. The press and seal baggies hold the wipes and keep them sanitary and moist. These baggies full of diapers and wipes are then given free to women who need them. I think it is a great idea and a great use of the baggies. In fact, I think I will donate some today!

Terry Bush 12 years, 5 months ago

No one's mind is going to be changed in an exchange like this. So the answer is pretty simple. Like what the business did? Then give them your money and support their actions. Don't like what they did? Then don't go there and don't give them your money. It's still a free country, with free speech. The above discussion sets forth a myriad of factual, moral, & personal view points. And I bet no one has convinced anyone to change their initial opinion or reaction to the story. Share your ideas and information, yes. But masochists aside, no one wins supporters to a cause (or a business) by calling them names or browbeating them.

wonderhorse 12 years, 5 months ago


Hobb gave what I thought was a good lay definition of a parasite. I merely pointed out what I thought he was describing.

hobb2264 12 years, 5 months ago

That's very sensitive many children, (oops, I mean parasites) do you have?

I guess I don't understand why adoption isn't a better option than abortion. Maybe I'm misinformed, but I was under the impression that there was a surplus of parents looking to adopt.

jewelster 12 years, 5 months ago

To those of you arguing that you cannot be against abortion for yourself but at the same time support another woman's right to choose, how about this?

You have a family member who needs a kidney transplant. It is discovered that you are a perfect match and unless you donate your kidney, said family member will die.

Should you donate your kidney? Of course.

Should you go to jail if you don't? Of course not!

How does this example relate to the abortion debate? The pro-life stance is that the fetus has a right to life. But because that fetus depends on someone else's body to live, it's not that simple. Just like in the organ transplant example... The person requiring the kidney has a right to life, but that does not supersede your right to decide what to do with your own body (ie. whether or not you want to donate your kidney).

Just because something is, in your mind, the "right" thing to do, doesn't mean it should be law!

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 5 months ago

Wow. I need to add abortion to my list of things that get Lawrencians exorcised (a pun relevant to this story), in addition to evolution and roundabouts. I think the vitriol over roundabouts still is the most caustic, which says something, I think.

The fact is, no one knows when life begins, although a newborn child and a grown woman are most definitely alive. The question of when life begins is unanswerable because it differs with different people and different perspectives.

Some even think sperm and egg have the capacity for life and thus should not be wasted.

This is precisely the sort of issue that cannot and should not be legislated or dictated. It should be left to the choice (there's that word) of the woman who is harboring the embryo/fetus.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 5 months ago

There are also many practical matters to consider here.

Outlawing abortion will not stop abortion. It will simply push it underground where safety and good medical practice are poor, or abortion will be available only to those who can afford to fly to another country (just like the good old days) or who can pay for it illegally.

The good ol' days of coathangers and secret flights to Denmark. Ahh, dontcha miss 'em?

maudeandcecil 12 years, 5 months ago

After reading the blogs associated with the Body Boutique article, I'm compelled to clarify that there is an error in the story. I did not request a refund. I did however request that the normal 90 days of notification to terminate my membership be waived. Again to be clear, I do not in anyway believe I am owed a refund. Furthermore I respect the right of the owner to deny my request for an early termination. Whatever she decides, I will cooperate. Legally I am obliged to do so.

To be fair, at the time that I signed my gym contract, I could not have known that the owner would egregiously use her business to further an anti- choice agenda. Had I known, I assure you, I would not have entered into a contract with the gym. In fact, my decision to contact the Journal World regarding the tree was done so to inform members and women considering becoming members that Body Boutique is a anti-choice establishment. For many women that is perfectly okay, but for others it is not.
Therefore in the spirit of Choice, I choose to terminate my membership. Perhaps others will follow. Or at least, now they will know what they are getting into.

NewBie 12 years, 5 months ago

"Body Boutique is a anti-choice establishment."

Ahhh, the beauty of free speech - you can say those statements when you believe them to be true, even when they are not factual.

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

Maudeandcecil: I completely agree! I wish I would have known this, too.

JohnS 12 years, 5 months ago

Perhaps the complainers feel guilty about something.

gr 12 years, 5 months ago

'Outlawing Meth will not stop Meth. It will simply push it underground where safety and good medical practice are poor, or will be available only to those who can pay for it illegally.'

But, I'm not sure it'd be wise to allow special drug establishments where people can get high safely.

gr 12 years, 5 months ago

No one knows when life begins for a individual person, but there are some who are trying to say they know how life began for the whole universe?....

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

"Give me an answer to that question: what is the morally correct thing to do with those aborted fetuses, and WHY is that the correct thing to do?"

Depends. If the fetus is very undeveloped, then stem cell research may be an option. If the fetus has developed to the point where such a use is no longer feasible, then it should be disposed of as medical waste, just as if you took out an appendix, lost an arm, or had liposuction. Moral correctness, however, should not be the basis for legal pro/prescriptions.

If possession of DNA was the sole factor in determining humanity, then what about folks with Fragile X syndrome? Down's? DNA is the same between all organisms, what matters is chromosomal count. People with some genetic disorders have different counts. By your definition, would they no longer be people? Corpses also have human chromosomes, should we not perform autopsies anymore? If genetic material is the only criterion, then you walk into a very dangerous place.

With your infant in a field example, you've decided to really ignore the argument. A fetus is biologically incapable of survival. Disconnect it from a particular human being, and it ceases to have any metabolic function. An infant, on the other hand, is just physically incapable of providing for itself. Separate it from its mother, and it can be fed by someone else. If you truly cannot see a distinction there, even if you don't think the distinction is important, then we've found the problem behind the abortion debate.

As for your last argument, that people include sonograms in their family photos, people include dogs in their family photos as well. The Christmas cards I've received in the last two weeks have more pictures of dogs than people. Should we now prohibit people putting their dogs down in the case of serious, terminal illness? I mean, that's the slippery slope someone later says we are headed down, so why not stop it there? People assign value to all kinds of things; fetuses, dogs, books, cars, homes. Just because someone assigns value to it doesn't mean it should automatically have the full force and protection of the law.

Finally, someone else addressed allateup's idiocy about Planned Parenthood. What is most notable is that they are concerned with women (and with men, actually) throughout their lives. Annual exams, pap smears, birth control, counseling, pre- and neo-natal care, and yes, sometimes abortion. Birthright, on the other hand, has no interest in preventing pregnancies or caring for women prior to their being pregnant. Even before a girl begins puberty, Planned Parenthood can provide services of all kinds. Birthright doesn't. Don't equate the two. It makes you look silly.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 5 months ago

Buba, you missed my point completely about the DNA. You say it's not human, yet it has human DNA, and a unique set of DNA. You want to treat the argument as if it's part of it's mother, therefore she can do what she wishes with it. But it's not part of her, it is unique. The genetic anomolies you mentioned are mutations, and therefore not relevant to the argument.

I'm staying put with my comment about the viability of fetuses. When my wife was born, she was kept alive using artificial means because she was very premie, only 2 pounds. By your standard, her death would not have mattered because as "not viable", she wasn't a person. You draw this "line" regarding the REASON why the fetus is dependent on its mother that I completely reject.

Every woman should feel a natural desire to protect her children. Nature tells us this. The women who leave abortion clinics in tears are telling you this with their tears.

I included my cats in my "family photos", but that doesn't mean that they have the same value as a child in those same photos. My point, which I'm sure you understood better than you wish to reveal, is that for many people, the unborn people in their families are already members of that family. They are loved before they are born, in the way that people are supposed to love other people. My argument was not that I think any creature in a photo is a person.

I see your responses as you making sure to respond in order to continue to lend validity to your perspective, but in the end, you are still simply rationalizing an atrocity.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 5 months ago


What do meth and creationism have to do with abortion? Stick to the subject at hand.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 5 months ago


This turn of phrase of yours is an excellent example of extremism: "I see your responses as you making sure to respond in order to continue to lend validity to your perspective, but in the end, you are still simply rationalizing an atrocity"

There is no room in your dogma for reasoned consideration. This black-and-white militancy is exactly what we don't need. You have seized the language of the righteous moral crusader.

Rock on, Osama.

passion 12 years, 5 months ago

Confrontation When is the last time you worked out? Are you mathimatically challenged? Thanks for freeing up one of the SEVEN ellipticals. Crappy Attitude = Cappy state of mind.

Bubarubu 12 years, 5 months ago

Every variation in DNA is, at some level a mutation. Simply having human DNA is not sufficient to justify life. By that count, mice that are genetically altered to be susceptible to human diseases could be called human. Humans that receive transgenic organs could be called pigs, since they now have the DNA of a pig. My point is that DNA alone, chromosomal structure alone, is not sufficient to define "life". I'm not arguing whether a fetus could become human, but whether it is alive.

As for your wife being an example of viability, I would say that only through the miracle of modern technology (anyone else see Doonsbury today and laugh themselves silly?), we can do things we never before thought possible. In the case of your wife, I'm sure her parents wanted her, and wanted her to live. Based on the research I've done, at 2 lbs., your wife would have been born at approximately 23-25 weeks. At the point that a fetus is capable of metabolic functioning on its own, then the question of life changes significantly, which is why Roe distinguished between the second and third trimester.

Your concern with what women "should" feel is, frankly, insulting. You don't get to dictate to anyone what they should feel about anything. What about the women who suffer post-partum depression? What would you say to those women who don't feel what you think they should?

As for your cats, and the people who think of their unborn children as members of the family, that's fine. They are free to act as they choose based on those thoughts. The mere existence of those thoughts does not entitle them to legal recourse. My point, which you probably missed, is that your opinion, your thoughts, your feelings, are not a valid basis for OUR laws. I read a study recently of talk about politics. What the researchers found was that most of the arguments made were egocentric and based in personal examples. The problem is that, when people adopt the view that their experience is representative of all experiences, it reduces the entirety of argument to the validity of their personal narrative. What about people who have other, competing narratives? If policy becomes nothing more than reflection of a singular experience, and excludes the possibility of other experiences, then it's not policy, its tyranny of the anecdote. Your wife was viable as a preemie, therefore all preemies must be viable. Your neighbor felt nothing but love for her kids and wanted to protect them, so everyone must feel the same way. The pro-life/anti-abortion position is rooted in this totalizing effect, so that my actions somehow affect your moral evaluation.

I'm glad you see my responses as simply "lend[ing] validity to my perspective", but even in that comment, you're saying that my perspective is not actually legitimate, just reinforcing the tyranny of the anecdote I mentioned. Pro-choice policies do not require anyone to get an abortion, they do not enforce a viewpoint.

passion 12 years, 5 months ago

Change you attiduted and you will get different results life/happiness is a choice.

"Pehaps the complainers feel quilty about something" Maybee they do John? Maudeancecil. Maybe Birthright can help you find counciling for the skellitons in your closet. Just a thought!

lkm 12 years, 5 months ago

." I don't shop in places that publicize politics in opposition to mine, plain and simple. I have a friend who refuses to eat at restaurants if they cite religious reasons for being closed Sunday, and won't give homeless people money if they put 'God Bless' on their signs, "

I want to know does your freind stand beside the homeless person and encourage others to not give this homeless person money because of his 'God Bless' sign???? Or is this simply his decision and he allows other to make there own stand? Does he stand there and say... Don't give him money checkout his sign, oh no no he has God on his sign dont help him, go to the next homeless person he has a brown bag you can drop money in but do not help this one... that would be very rude don't you think?

I believe that is the same anolagy these three women are doing. It is so twisted to take a small business just trying to "give" and making a puplic riducule out of it for there own belief and insecurities. I heard a member called to canceal her membership today because of this misscrude article. She has not been in to work out since August' but is affended by the FETUS tree. (up for less than a week in DEC) Excuses excuses excuses... wow what a ugly can of worms these ladies opened. Do you know national average says only 10 percent of people never use there gym membership! Yes they are looking for every and any excuse to get out of this obligation so they can sit at home and eat bon bons or in this case find some one elses life they could disrupt. I find it discusting so many people do not think before they act... or they just think of themselves. Actually it just breaks my heart!

My Gym "technically Hartzler gym" had a sadness about it today while I was there... So unfare. But I do believe good always outways evil and this to will pass!

Good night and God Bless

ru4life 12 years, 5 months ago

When I studied anatomy 30yrs ago, we were warned that showing any disrespect to the cadavers would mean automatic removal from the faculty. Now students are taught to abort living humans. You've come a long way baby.............. So much for WWII holocaust and never again!

frittata65 12 years, 5 months ago

lkm, what breaks my heart is that MY gym has been turned into a political arena. I called the gym last Friday and BEGGED the owner to take down the tree. I said it is a political polarizing issue (see above if you don't believe me) and I don't want that in my safe place, my sanctuary of a gym. I had no intention of cancelling my membership until my opinion was treated so indifferently by the owner of the gym. It's too bad she couldn't keep her political beliefs out of her business, but don't worry I won't be getting fat on bon bons, I already checked out some pilate DVDs from the library.

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

Passion: I don't know what a "Cappy state of mind" is, but I'm sure you have it. If you had even half a brain, you would realize that there are only 2 decent ellipticals at the gym, and 2 other pieces of junk. Apparently, 2 plus 2 equals 7 in La-La-Passion-Land. Maybe you should hit the math books and stay out of the gym for a while.

Confrontation 12 years, 5 months ago

Isn't it funny that Passion just created an account today? Maybe she should just go back to her desk job at Body Botique and leave anything intelligent to someone else.

enochville 12 years, 5 months ago

Scout_Dad: Let's do it. As I've said on another abortion thread a few months back, I am all for helping women. And I am all for helping children, born or not. I love them both. I am Pro-life, but I do make exceptions for medically necessary abortions. I think we should do better as a society at enforcing child support. I know that right now there is not a healthy, white baby who could not be adopted this instant. All white women with healthy, white unborn children can know that adoption is always an option for them. But, we need to do more to encourage the adoption of minority children and children with special needs. My wife and I will adopt once I am established in a career (it is not requisite that we run faster than we have strength, or adopt before we are able).

I'd like to turn the conversation to why women get abortions for non-medical reasons to see if after we have gathered those reasons, we might be able to work toward alleviating those reasons. The purpose is two-fold: help women and save babies' lives.

No one can promise that every child saved from abortion will have a happy childhood. It is my value and belief system that even a crappy life is better than no life at all. Maybe the child would choose the crappy life, if he or she knew the situation he or she would be born into, or maybe he or she would choose death. I do not feel that anyone should make the decision for the child. Biologically, almost any organism including embryos fight desparately for life if they have the capacity to fight at all. I understand that not everyone agrees with me there. I respect your right to have your opinion.

To whomever said that pro-lifers did not support some couple in choosing not to have an abortion: I must have missed that article. I would have supported them if I had known about it.

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

Hey Marion, you should thank God that He influenced your mother to choose to let you live. You know, we live in a society with screwed up values; we are fulfilling bible prophesy by calling evil good and good evil. You must know, whether you agree with it or not, that the master mind behind the abortion issue is Satan. Jesus said that the devil is a liar and that his purpose is to steal, kill, and destroy. On the other hand, the purpose of God is to give life. So the author of death and murder, that is, abortion, is Satan. I am on God's side, not too worried about people's opinion since He is the one that will judge us all according to the standard He has established, not according to some cheap law that calls murder a choice.

I believe in the woman's right to choose. So let them choose not to get pregnant since the great majority of women aborting human beings have control over the issue. Don't get pregnant so you don't have to commit murder.

passion 12 years, 5 months ago

confrontation Your code name is confrontation, that should say it all! Some people are just confertational and it leaves them in a crappy state of mind 24-7. Maybe before you go spitting your negative opion out on people you should know what an elliptical is. There is seven!

passion 12 years, 5 months ago

And for the record I do not have a desk job at Body Boutique. I am a business owner and a long term member of an awsome gym. I think it is you confrontation, who has a desk job.

pixiemom 12 years, 5 months ago

I am also a soon to be former member of BB. The owner was only conciliatory after the press got involved. She was very rude and callous towards the people who complained. She had no plans to take down the abortion tree and told the members who didn't like it they could cancel their memberships. It was her gym and she'd do what she wanted.

As for Birthright - they once locked a friend of mine in a room for 2 hours and forced her to watch anti-abortion films all the while telling her she was going to hell. A wolf in sheep's clothing. She went in for the 'free pregnancy test'. Thankfully, it came back negative or who knows what they would have done. This was years ago and not in Lawrence, so the Lawrence chapter may not do this. But to say that Birthright does not have an agenda is ridiculous!

Who doesn't know that women feel very strongly about this issue? I don't buy for a minute that she didn't mean to offend anyone. Fetuses on a Christmas tree? That is beyond sensationalistic and offends me as a woman, a mother and a Christian. Anyone with any business sense knows to keep politics and religion out of their business. This woman is making money in spite of herself.

NewBie 12 years, 5 months ago

Oh come on. How is she making money in spite of herself? Poor business decision? Yes. Offended many? Yes. Apology made? Yes. Check out their website. Whether you believe the apology or not, its there. Im a member, a pro-choice member, who was NOT offended. And since when is it the abortion tree?

Over and done with. She will lose some members. She will gain others. Let it go. You dont like it? Youve made your decision. You wont be back. Fine.

This back and forth and back and forth and criticizing the gym as a whole, and its equipment, and its staff...OVERKILL!

Find a better place for yourself. Damage is done. Enough already!

Godot 12 years, 5 months ago

"Anyone with any business sense knows to keep politics and religion out of their business."

Unless, of course, your business is running a newspaper.

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

Maybe the owner of the gym thinks she's still in the halloween unholyday. :)

lkm 12 years, 5 months ago


I truly believe in a weird kind of way you and I our on the same page. We are both HEART BROKEN that our gym has been turned into political arena. We just believe it got there for different reasons. As a long term member I have had many conversations with the owner over the years. She cares greatly about her members and there opinions. Body Boutique is the only gym I ever heard of that has a suggestion box that gets read weekly and the owner personally responds to all of them.

The way I understand it you were the only member who spoke to her regarding the fund raising tree on Friday. Kelly Jones never spoke to the owner, that is one of the many discrepancies in the story. One member out of two thousand brings there concern to the owner and she is suppose to immediately remove what she and many others viewed as a simply fun raiser to help mothers and babies. The owner has a very large job trying to please all her members, all with many different agendas. One member came in yesterday when I was there and said "oh the tree is gone that's too bad". Another person said "I thought it was a baby shower tree for all our new mom's around here". Being in a business that serves people for seventeen year, it does not make since that any business owner would immediately remove the fund-raiser. I hope we all have learned great lessons from this.

God bless

God Bless

BoycottKansas 12 years, 5 months ago

Wow...The FlatEarth Society of Kansas has much to be proud of...Can't speak a second language in the hall-ways of a highschool in KC/Homo hating Baptist in Topeka, who picket Marine funerals and ask for more Americans to die in Iraq/banning evolution in schools...

MarilynBr 12 years, 5 months ago

The tree seems most appropriate for the season. Mary, the mother of Jesus, dealt with an unwed pregnancy after all. What if she had chosen to abort the Savior of the world?

gr 12 years, 5 months ago


I think you read loud and clear what the argument had to do with abortion.


Nop Enotgoingto 12 years, 5 months ago

I worked for L&L Dodd's Salon/Gym ( Color/ Body Boutique) for nearly two years. Everyday in the Salon we were allowed to only listen to christian music, not even a Celine Dion CD was allowed. My personal life was under constant scrutiny and I was always being asked to attend Salon/Gym Bible studies. I was nearly forced into doing a cuts-for-christ to benefit the Owner's sons private christian school, without pay... while my own first grader sat in a class with 25 students and only one teacher/adult at New York Elementry. I doubt very much there is any innocence in the gesture of hosting the tree. Any person who can withhold the final two paychecks illegaly of a single mother of two kids six weeks before christmas dosn't have a very charitable bone in their body. Anyways, I do believe that if business are going to take a stand for their private beliefs than they must plan for this kind of reaction.

Nop Enotgoingto 12 years, 5 months ago

I Also think Passion works in the salon maybe... owner/manager?

frittata65 12 years, 5 months ago

I would hope the manager/owner (passion?) would have much better spelling skills.....

Sorry about your experience namastem, it sounds like I did the right thing by quitting.

pixiemom 12 years, 5 months ago

nanastem - where do you work now (if you feel comfortable saying)? I am currently looking for a new hairstylist since I used to get my hair cut at color salon. I would love to support a single working mom in a REAL way.

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

Mary was not an unwed mother, she was ESPOUSED to Joseph, or betrothed, which in the Jewish tradition, meant much more than just engagement. You see, one of the reasons God announced to Mary at the time He did was because she was soon to conceal the marriage with Joseph. God would have never put the seed in Mary's womb while she was single. God chose a virgin-married woman.

pst 12 years, 5 months ago

Now I think things have gone to far.Why would anyone want to attack someone because they didnot do their job? I am sorry things did not work out for you at Color. But to say hurtful things is wrong. I personally helped you and your kids as much as I could. So to hear you slam us really hurts.

Nop Enotgoingto 12 years, 5 months ago

PST... Hi pen ( congrats btw on the baby ), I am not attacking Salon/Gym, I am simply stating things that happened, and they did. How did you personally help me and my kids, by kicking me when I was down? by signing the bible given to me by LM when I was let go? I still send people to your salon do you send people to me? Taking my last two paychecks was illegal and the state sided with me. I did my job and I did it well, I genuinely care about people and how they feel and look and you telling me I did not wounds me deeply. I could have sued for discrimination but I thought of the people I once thought of as friends and my own Karma and I chose not too. (P.S. sorry to anyone else who reads this its a little of the subject.)

It come's down to one simple thing... Don't push, what's fine for you is fine you, why does everybody else try so hard to mold people to their beliefs? If you are pro-life that's great, that doesn't mean everybody else has to be, If your pro-choice that's great, if your Christian, Jewish, agnostic whatever, that's great. I am going to be me with my own thoughts, opinions, and beliefs. Who would we be if we were all the same? You can not have happiness without sadness, you can not have life without death. People no matter what should be the best person they can, and to allow others to do the same. Think of other people, imagine yourself in their shoes, life is different for everyone, we all come out of it differently. Diversity is part of the beauty of the world.

Nop Enotgoingto 12 years, 5 months ago

Additionly... if you are going be a faith based business, or Force your political prefrence that is fine... Let the people know ahead of time. thats why a christian book store says that it's christian, thats why the womens gym says women. that is why organic food says its organic or the catholic school says its catholic, or a womens bathroom says it womens etc. etc. You cant get mad if you walk into the gym and it's all women!!! If you were to say we are a faith based womens gym/salon nobody could realy complain.

revsolly 12 years, 5 months ago

It is great that what would seem to be an inoffensive little display would stir up so much discussion. It is good that people are talking about this. It may help people to clarify their thoughts on the matter and review their stands.

Some here have suggested that the resulting "foster children" would drain state coffers, or that the pro-lifers should do other things (as if they don't) to prevent abortions by preventing the need for abortion. These are red herrings as the vast majority of children who's lives are allowed to continue, either remain with their birth mother or father, or are adopted by loving couples. My wife and I have 3 adopted children, so far.

Education does need to be done. That is one of the purposes of this tree. However, children in the womb are dying today because too many people don't care for them or their continued life.

echocry 12 years, 5 months ago

To put it vaguely all those that don't support pro-choice can go and adopt all those children that are in need of loving. nuturing permant homes. Because the tragedy of that is the result of a women birthing a child she did not intend to have, either leaves the child in a foster home or in an unwanted home. This may not be the case always but is more probable. And to be pro-life and to think that is ok to terminate the life of a rape concieved fetus is ludicrus. That life is no different from any other life concieved. And for a local buisness to display this kind of opinion and expect a positive response or no response at all would be unreasonable.

This buisness has had numerous reports of unfairness and trying to push it's religous/politcal views on it's employee's and clients. Maybe if it was advertised that it was a christian organization that would be fine. But this is just pushing a view on customers that walk throught that door that have to see and read what that tree stands for. So I just say, that if you are going to take a stance on an oppinion, expect an honest answer.

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

Abortion Statistics - Demographics

* Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young. 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
* Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.
* Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.
* Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

* 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
* 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
* 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
* 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
* 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
* 7.9% of women want no (more) children.
* 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
* 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

As you can see, the prevailing reason to murder, or abort, a human being is SELFISHNESS. Again, women, DECIDE NOT TO GET PREGNANT SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO MURDER A HUMAN BEING.

The problem here is that people don't want to take responsibility of their actions, so it is easier to destroy life than to preserve it. How about we extend the abortion time window to 30 years, and we just abort rebels and all those that don't contribute righteousness to life. That way we'll avoid all sorts of problems in society.

And don't bring that issue of a rape pregnancy, because that is not even 2% of the cause of abortion. People in today's society want God out of their life, they don't want to follow His commandments concerning sexual behavior, and so the product is teen girls and young women who become promiscuos. No wonder they get pregnant when they shack up with 10 different guys in a month, or week, or whatever.

You are decieved if you think you can do with your life whatever you want. That is impossible! You must realize that everything you do, every choice you make, affects everyone around you. Why don't you grow up and start taking responsibility for your actions. I can garantee you, if you live under the authority of Jesus Christ, nobody will rape you, you won't get pregnant out of wedlock, and you will have kids at the right time, and you will love them because you will not be selfish.

Don't you realize that this modern lifestyle represents the kingdom Satan? Selfishness, murder, promiscuity, perversion... etc. What are these pro-choice people going to tell God when they give account for everything they've done? What are they going to say about the commandment, "You shall not murder"?

cosmoshead 12 years, 5 months ago

I'm not saying this to condemn anybody. I am not saying that because you have aborted a child (dren) you will go to hell. Abortion won't send you to hell anymore than any other sin you have committed in your lifetime. Individual sins are not the problem. What sends people to hell is their sin nature that drives them to sin.

All you have to do is to come before God right where you are, acknowlege that you are a sinner, ask Jesus Christ to forgive you, believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead, and you will be saved. You will become a new creature. The bible says that when you get born again, your body becomes the temple of the God Holy Spirit. So God will begin to change you from within, and your wants will change along with your motivations, concerns, priorities, and attitudes.

A person who has aborted is not worse than a person who has not. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Godot 12 years, 5 months ago

If there were a YWCA in Lawrence equal to or better than the beautiful facility in West Topeka, I wonder if all the pro-choice women would refuse, on principal, to use it.

ljs 12 years, 4 months ago

I had an abortion a year and a half ago. It was my choice. Call me what you want.

I was dating a man I was committed to. I was on birth control. I began showing symptoms of pregnancy, but I was told that it was the birth control. I ignored the symptoms and continued b.c. until it was obvious that it wasn't the b.c. I failed 4 at home pregnancy tests. Finally, I had one professionally done. I was three months pregnant. I have no health insurance. 45 thousand debt from college. I drank (not habitually) and smoked cigarettes. And took birth control. As far as I knew, it was already dead. And if not, it would have starved to death because there was no way I could afford feeding it. No one would be willing to adopt a mentally handicapped child, no matter what anyone says.

It was a difficult choice, but it was the right thing to do.

I had a hard time dealing. But the more women I talked to, the more I realized that most women have had an abortion. None of them selfish. just genuine concern for the life of the potential child and their own. Condemn us all, but we're just making the decisions we have to make at the moment the problem is set before us. That doesn't make it easy or make us selfish, flippant, "into murder" or any less human.

I know it was my choice. I don't consider it murder. It's not fair to throw me in a group who uses abortion as birth control. I took all the necessary precautions to prevent pregnancy.

As a woman, we are expected to be so many things. We are expected to want to be mothers, to be nurturing, to make decisions for ourselves based on laws not made by women and then stand there as we take criticism for the choices we make based on those laws. We are expected to say no to sex or be on birth control, while men try to push their right to not wear a condom because "it feels better." So does not gaining 30 pounds from being on b.c. for 6 years. So does not having to take a hormone every day. We don't get to walk away and wash our hands of the feelings our decisions bring, good or bad. No matter what our choice, respect us.

I just wonder how many women on this message board have had abortions. How many pro-choice?anti-choice? I know it isn't any of my business, but it will give everyone a little perspective. Being ashamed to share our stories, being vague "beliefs" doesn't give others the perspective of a person who has been through the experience. Not sharing our stories, being silent, prevents the world from seeing women who seek abortions as human beings. It lets us be seen as teens and irresponsible women who can't spell and who aren't politically conscious. I know I'm not the only one here.

cosmoshead 12 years, 4 months ago

ljs (anonymous):

I know deep inside you know what you did was wrong. I understand that you are trying to apeace your conscience by all of these excuses you write. You have no way to prove that the human being in your womb was already dead or was going to be born defective. But most importantly, you are not the god of the person you chose to get pregnant with in the first place, to decide he or she should die because you don't feel ready to raise them.

I understand that this evil society pushes laws and things on women and that if they don't know how to place limits on those laws, you can be very oppressed by them. However, it is a matter of choice whether or not you run your life by them. If you know who you are and are well established in your priorities, nothing can move you to the left or to the right.

You need to stop being childish and start taking full responsibility for your actions. God set up laws in the world and one of those laws is about conception and creation of a human being by the sexual union of a man and a woman. And it is a proven fact that even the safest birth control system is not 100% effective.

Now the only reason you think you can choose to "abort", or murder, is because the person being aborted is defensless and because you are protected by a satanic law that allows it. Just like in canibal societies it is legal to eat another human being and it is a crime to kill a canibal person because he/she was trying to get some food. However, under the absolute principles of God Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, murder is murder whether you call it your choice or whatever. You will answer for your choices whether good or bad. Nobody condems you - your own choices, conscience, and the devil do. Jesus said to the Jews in John 8 that they were of their father the devil, because they wanted to murder him; because the devil is a murderer from the begining. Like begets like.

The solution to your problem is very simple. First, surrender your life to Jesus Christ and make Him your Lord and Savior. Second, learn from the bible how to make good choices and how to run your life according to the principles of God. You know, life is so much easier when you abide by God's commandments... you have no idea.

I know what I'm saying is very confrontational, but somebody needs to tell you the truth. Like I said before, aborting a child or telling a lie is just as bad in the sight of God. Your individual sins won't send you to hell, but your sinful nature. When you surrender your life to Jesus Christ, God changes that sinful nature into the nature of God Himself. You see, God will change you from inside out.

Godot 12 years, 4 months ago

Wow, a new justification for abortion: college loan debt!

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