Archive for Saturday, December 17, 2005

Protesters arrested at Army-Navy recruiting office

December 17, 2005

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Lawrence Police arrested seven protesters this morning after they spent hours chained by their necks to the doors of a military recruiting office.

Protests organizers said that the group locked themselves to the doors of the Army-Navy recruiting office, 2223 La. St., in honor of others who have faced more serious consequences fighting the war in Iraq.

"A lot of people have gone to prison for protesting the war," Dave Strano, a protest organizer, said while watching the scene. "We wanted to do something to honor them."

Mark Warren, a Lawrence Police spokesman, said all of the protesters who chained themselves to the doors were arrested for criminal trespassing after police asked them to remove themselves from the recruiting office.

Other charges, including interference with the duties of a law enforcement officer, could be filed later, Warren said.

For any more on this story, pick up a copy of Sunday's Journal-World.

Comments

Ragingbear 9 years, 6 months ago

They didn't chain themselves to the door. Somebody tried to see if your tounge would freeze to metal if you licked it, and everyone else was trying to pull them off....

Steve Jacob 9 years, 6 months ago

Thats going alittle bit too far, protesting the war. If you want to be helpful, do it in a way that does not make you seem "nuts".

italianprincess 9 years, 6 months ago

I'm truely not happy with the war either, but do people really think that all the protesting they do is going to make it all stop?

james bush 9 years, 6 months ago

Do these showoffs really want a country with no military? Maybe they want us all "to just get along." Then terrorists will let us live in peace until they decide when and how to annihilate the western civilized world. I'm happy that there are men and women who want to serve the country and are brave enough to be warriors.

Jamesaust 9 years, 6 months ago

"...chained by their necks..."

Don't anyone question their intelligence.

Aiko 9 years, 6 months ago

I saw them as I drove by today and what a bunch of bafoons..

hurlehey 9 years, 6 months ago

Dave Strano is a jackk@#. Mostly he's got short guy syndrome and just wants attention. A hardcore "anarchist" who works at a corporate business.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 6 months ago

Protests stopped the viet nam war after 50,000 americans died.

Godot 9 years, 6 months ago

Only 48,000 to go. If that is your measure, then, at the rate it has been going, the "war" will go on until 2050.

redfred 9 years, 6 months ago

Leave it to Strano to be standing on the sideline watching. That's real comitment to the cause.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 6 months ago

my impression is that these, and the antiwar deaniac michael moore demorats in DC are actually becoming more desperate in their behavior and their haste to declare defeat, just as we are winning in IRAQ!
yes, we are winning, RE the December 15th election with a turnout higher than what we ever usually have for elections! 65% +! more on this below.
these people like Dean and Kerry with their shameful defeat statements of about a week ago, on the verge of this election, trying to seize defeat from the jaws of victory! I believe that they actually are hoping for our failure in Iraq, and want to demoralize the troops to do that, just to prop up their own power and because of the rabit deaniac/moore base of their party. t#$h we are winning in Iraq: some facts the mainstream media will not report:
extremely successful election Dec. 15th, with minimal terror violence. overall, carbombings, way down. IED's, number way down, like less than half. some Suni groups which supported terrorists, have turned over their operations and are political and participating in the process instead of promoting terror. the Iraqi army/security forces took primary responsibility for election security, successfully, and has been increasing every day its share of turrain under independent governance.

-- so, when I see these scruffies, or Kennedy/Kerry/Dean/etc., I just smile and note their increasing desperation!

bunch of foolish idiots, local and demorats in DC.


What will these local scruffies do when the war is done and won? start protesting "globalization?" or "corporate rule?" or maybe they'll just start protesting polyester?

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

From Arminius:

merrill:

Good point. It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Let's not allow them to do the same thing with Islamofascism.


These folks should have stayed within the law.

Questions for Arminius:

(1) Would Indochina be free from communism or other repressive forms of government if not for the American protesters of the 1960s?

(2) Do you believe that Americans should not be free to lawfully protest circumstances when such protests might create outcomes that might ultimately be detrimental to American interests?

(3) Is there anything unique about America, with regard to the ability to protest lawfully (such as 99% of the anti-war protests of the 1960s), that distinguishes us from repressive regimes?

Confrontation 9 years, 6 months ago

Wouldn't it have been more entertaining to take away their key and leave them out there? If they want to show the real struggle of the soldiers, then let's help them.

memoirs_of_a_sleepwalker 9 years, 6 months ago

Or maybe they'll just start protesting you, Bearded Weirdo.

And you believe that we're winning. I suppose that's what W told you, so you and Arminius and John 1945 blindly believe. It seems you are the "foolish idiot."

unholyking 9 years, 6 months ago

Let them protest, let them hold there signs and lock themselves to inanimate objects for peace, I'll still shake there hand because they pay taxes that pay the wages for America's miltary salaries. So thankyou!!

unholyking 9 years, 6 months ago

And no matter how much you disagree with what "W" is doing you still support him by paying your taxes all be involuntary if you live here in the U.S. but you do have the option to move out........

mefirst 9 years, 6 months ago

Bearded Gnome--"we're winning in Iraq!!!" What are we winning? I thought Iraqi's were supposed to be the big winners, y'know, the Democracy prize...Seems to me we're the big losers in this war...

200+billion/year on rebuilding another country's infrastructure (after we bombed it to shreds--yeah, that's progress!), thousands of lost lives--Iraqi, American, and others, tens of thousands maimed, suicide bombers proliferating like rabbits, a world that views us with contempt, a whole generation of children who will live with the post traumatic stress their parents will bring home with them (that's always fun...dad was an infantryman in Vietnam), millions of dollars paid out in disability compensation to veterans--don't forget medical expenses and drug and alcohol treatment...the list could go on, and for what?

What do we win? Well, armchair warriors get to sit back and play cheerleader, living vicariously through others who are actually fighting this war, ummmmmm...we get to pretend we're united country, all patriotic, all loving our country...what a warm, cozy feeling, eh? People who do absolutely nothing to support the troops other than putting a magnet on their car or saluting the flag now have a sense of purpose, the rich get richer (I know there are a lot of you out there who still don't get this concept...), and uh, the rest of the world gets to crack jokes and poke fun at our ignorance of the world, our flat out refusal to give a sh*t what the rest of the world thinks, and our arrogance.

You're right, Mr. Gnome...we are winning!

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Arminius:

You did not answer any of my questions. Incredible. My questions were straightforward. What gives?

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Arminius:

I'll allow you a "do over."

Questions for Arminius:

(1) Would Indochina be free from communism or other repressive forms of government if not for the American protesters of the 1960s?

(2) Do you believe that Americans should not be free to lawfully protest circumstances when such protests might create outcomes that might ultimately be detrimental to American interests?

(3) Is there anything unique about America, with regard to the ability to protest lawfully (such as 99% of the anti-war protests of the 1960s), that distinguishes us from repressive regimes?

hurlehey 9 years, 6 months ago

uh how is illegally chaining yourself to the door of private property a lawful protest?

mefirst 9 years, 6 months ago

All of you so eager to obey the law...you need to realize that the quality of life you enjoy here in the United States (worker's protection, civil liberties, civil rights)--most were obtained through ILLEGAL protest, as well as legal protest.

Instead of whining about these protestors and condemning their actions, you need to be reflecting on how these freedoms you enjoy really came about...we should be thanking the people who have protested through the generations for our freedoms. They're the TRUE HEROES!

What have military interventions in foreign countries really done for this society? Thank your lucky stars for the people who are willing to protest!

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

From hurhlehey:

"uh how is illegally chaining yourself to the door of private property a lawful protest?"

Who said that it was lawful?

Ragingbear 9 years, 6 months ago

The rules of protest are rather simple, but many people don't seem to get the concept. A protest must not break any other laws by doing so. This involves trespassing, harrasment, assault of any kind, public disturbance (Going through a suburb with 500 people at 1am chanting and wailing music or whatever) and have to be lawful at all times.In many places, a permit is required. However, they cannot deny your right to protest, only the means in which you do so. Although sometimes the government takes this too far, but that is what courts are for. This does not mean you can just do whatever.

Also, if you are instructed by the police to move, leave, or otherwise, then you must do so. Once again, if you disagree with what they are doing, that is what the courts are for. But if you get arrested for failure to follow instructions from law enforcement officers, then not only will you get arrested, but most likely those charges will stick. And contrary to what many people think, you will not become some sort of martyr if you get arrested. You will probably get probation, a fistfull of fines, and perhaps spend a few weeks in jail.

Going onto private property, and then chaining yourself to the door is illegal. You are tresspassing first of all, secondly you are impeding anyone who is trying to enter, leave, or conduct business there. You are also creating a public disturbance, as other businesses in the surrounding areas are affected because people will go elsewhere that day rather than be harrassed by protestors. Then there is the fear that they will get mean. I know I would think twice before going to a shop in that plaza with protestors of that nature there.

I don't know if Lawrece requires a permit for this type of protest. With the amount of protest in this town, I would guess not. But if they refused to unchain themselves and leave as soon as the police showed up and told them to, then they were tresspassing. Moreso, they could get nailed with other charges like obstruction of justice (usually a BS charge meaning you ticked off an officer), and resisting arrest.

There were better ways this could have been done. Instead, these people just made fools of themselves, and perhaps got some frostbite. It's cold out there.

Ember 9 years, 6 months ago

Densmore, if I might take a stab at answering your questions.

1.) It's truly impossible to tell if Indochina would have been free of Communist influences after the hasty retreat of American forces. You may as well ask if fire would be a different set of colors were we in a different atmosphere.

Personally, I believe the protestors eventually hampered the war effort, not through impeding the flow of troops and/or supplies into the area, but through willful destruction of the American spirit. I studied no such protests that occured during the Korean War, which was fought for much the same reasons as the Vietnam Conflict. I'd site other examples of it, but that was the last true armed conflict aimed at stemming the flow of Communism outward from the U.S.S.R. and China.

2.) By no means should the right to protest be denied an American citizen. At the same time, however, there are laws and guidelines in effect for the staging of a protest that should be followed. The right to protest is a very sacred right in the United States, but at no time should such demonstration be allowed to continued unlawfully. Simply because you have issues with American policies, be they foreign or domestic, you should never be excused from adhering to the laws of this country.

3.) I assume that you are not intending the oxymoronic concept within this question.

Nearly all repressive governments were quite strict about the concept of protesting that government, usually in the form of violently dispersing the protestors through various means. Case in point, I give you the student protest in Tianamen Square.

The greatest difference, in my mind, is not that the protests are allowed, within the limits of the law, in this country, but the simple fact that I have never heard of an instance in which any protestors were arrested by the police and subsequently abused and/or killed. No matter how grievious the offense during the protest, any charges that are brought against an arrested protestor are within the confines of the law.

unholyking 9 years, 6 months ago

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unholyking 9 years, 6 months ago

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Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Ember:

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

My questions were meant to open up several angles of discussion, one of which was as follows:

Arminius contends, "It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia." If that was the case, and I must confess that I think that the spread of communism in that region was inevitable despite our best efforts, then the strongest American influence, with regard to what ultimately happened in Indochina, is attributable to social movement as opposed to the wishes of the military-industrial complex. This then, was the result of Americanism. If we are Patriots, we honor the results of Americanism, despite the fact that the results were not what some of us would have wished.

Again, from Arminius:

"It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Let's not allow them to do the same thing with Islamofascism."

That sounds un-American. Arminius seems to be saying "Do not let the American public sway the government."

I say this: Let us allow Americans to do what they believe is just. If in the end, we lose a singular endeavor, such as in SE Asia, we nevertheless win a larger victory by virtue of the fact that the people were able to influence the government. What could be more "American" than that?

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Arminius:

By the way, are you a commie? You appear to prefer strong centralized decision making, oblivious to the voices from the citizenry.

jayhawks71 9 years, 6 months ago

italian princess, stop being such a wallflower. from the first time i ever saw you post, you are always about being passive.

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

From Arminius:

"It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Let's not allow them to do the same thing with Islamofascism."

Also from Arminius:

"They should have that freedom..."

So, which is it, Arminius? Should we allow them to say what they wish and accept the consequences, or not?

Also, please respond to the following:

Arminius contends, "It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia." If that was the case, and I must confess that I think that the spread of communism in that region was inevitable despite our best efforts, then the strongest American influence, with regard to what ultimately happened in Indochina, is attributable to social movement as opposed to the wishes of the military-industrial complex. This then, was the result of Americanism. If we are Patriots, we honor the results of Americanism, despite the fact that the results were not what some of us would have wished.


Arminius:

Were the 1960s war protests an act of Patriotism or something else, such as subversion? C'mon big guy, grab the bull by the horns. Address me head on, instead of side-stepping the issue. Or, are you too much of a knothead to understand the questions posed to you?

Godot 9 years, 6 months ago

How do you quit a war when the other side doesn't want to quit?

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Arminius:

I am waiting for your post that declares Bill Clinton as the reason that South Vietnam was over-run by the Reds.

One-two-three-four, I love the Marine Corps!

If you were in the Corps, you were changing bed sheets in San Diego. Quick-how many rounds of 5.56 did your M16 magazine hold? Quick-what was the difference between the civilian round's brass casing and the military's version of the .223? How about the 7.62 and the .308 WCF?

Godot 9 years, 6 months ago

Still waiting for the answer to my question.

james bush 9 years, 6 months ago

Vietnam war was escalated by LBJ but Kennedy started our "assistance" with military advisors. The liberal left gave victory to the North Vietnamese. Marion, thanks for the pointing that out to these posters. Enemies of the US depend on liberals, peaceniks, and left wing dems like Teddy Kennedy, Pelosi, Durbin, Shumer, Leahy and Dean to help their cause in Iraq. Maybe even Jane Fonda will make a comeback and show up on a terrorist's pickup truck Baghdad.

President Bush may not be glib like Clinton or inspiring like Reagan but he beats all the competition the dems have to offer. We all better hope he's correct and we get the Iraq military up to speed. Losing by running away is no option in Iraq in my opinion.

Godot 9 years, 6 months ago

That's a great thought: Jane Fonda in an orange jumpsuit with her arms shackled behind her back.

"Come on, girls. Work it, you can do it.....5, 6, 7, 8, bend forward, from the waist, get your forehead to the floor..."

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Wrong answer, Arminius. I did not ask what you learned in boot camp. Also, in no way did I suggest that all Marines went through San Diego. It is my suspicion that San Diego is where you ultimately landed, if in fact you were in the Corps, and you probably didn't touch an M16 after learning how to fold linen and change catheters.

Also, for the third time, please respond to the following:

Arminius contends, "It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia." If that was the case, and I must confess that I think that the spread of communism in that region was inevitable despite our best efforts, then the strongest American influence, with regard to what ultimately happened in Indochina, is attributable to social movement as opposed to the wishes of the military-industrial complex. This then, was the result of Americanism. If we are Patriots, we honor the results of Americanism, despite the fact that the results were not what some of us would have wished.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 9 years, 6 months ago

Merrill (and others): just out of curiosity, if 50,000 people dying over the course of 10 years is so heinous, how come people don't get upset that about that same number of people die each year in auto accidents? (most of which are caused by people being reckless - speeding, talking on their cell phones, etc.

classclown 9 years, 6 months ago

Densmore:

Stop talking trash about the Marine Corps. It's obvious you don't know anything about it. You are attempting to get a rise out of Arminius, but all you are managing to do is show yourself to be a fool.

=====================

Arminius:

A John Wayne? I doubt anybody that's been in no earlier than the mid 80's would know what that is. Even if they've managed to have seen them sometime, they probably only know it as a P38 if they even know that much.

For extra fun maybe he should be made to explain what a quadrafoil is, who Chesty is, who Dan Daly is, and how all the nicknames originated. For starters.

compmd 9 years, 6 months ago

pity:

"put them on a transport plane and kick their a**** out about 500 feet above the ground over Iraq without parachutes."

You just stated that the government should kill people for nonviolent protest. *

I hear things from the President that say thats exactly what Saddam would have his troops do.

"You are all weak minded...and waste our perfectly good air."

Weak minded and a waste of air, eh? You know, there was this guy in Germany about 65 years ago who thought the same thing about a certain group of people.

Congratulations, in an attempt to show what a real patriot and supporter of our troops you are, you actually showed yourself to be representative of everything this great country stands against. Your suggestions here are outrageous and the words of someone who really doesn't know what they believe in. I would also think it is likely that with those words, you could be on W's spy list. Good job.

  • Note: I'm not saying that these people shouldn't be punished for illegal protest. I am saying that the punishment should be appropriate; in this case, likely a fine.

pity2bu 9 years, 6 months ago

compmd, Your the one weak minded, a fine, get real, i'm a true patriot and supporter! I have fought to keep your a**** free and to be able to sit around a protest about nothing. Spy list, you been reading to many non fiction books with the other morons.

Jail time and lots of it.......................

Its people like us that have to fight so that people like you can breath our fresh air.

classclown 9 years, 6 months ago

pity2bu:

"I think they should have placed them all on the bus without any questions and then sent them directly to Camp Lejuene for boot camp, as they appeared to be there to sign up and the weren't leaving until they were sworn in."

====================================

Camp Lejune doesn't have a boot camp.

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

From Classclown:

Densmore:

Stop talking trash about the Marine Corps. It's obvious you don't know anything about it. You are attempting to get a rise out of Arminius, but all you are managing to do is show yourself to be a fool.


Classclown and Arminius:

I wasn't talking trash about the Marine Corps. If I came across that way, I apologize.

Also, you are correct-I was trying to get a rise out of Arminius. I apologize for that as well, including this apology to Arminius: I am sorry to have swayed away from the issue. I am sorry for having questioned your service as well.

By the way, I can't answer some of your suggested questions about the Marines. I wasn't in the Marines and did not imply that I was.

Now that I have set the record straight, I'll try to get back to the issue.

Arminius set me off with the following:

"It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Let's not allow them to do the same thing with Islamofascism."

Now, please set aside all of the previously posted garbage by yours truly and focus on the following:

Arminius contends, "It was our fellow Americans who aided in the spread of communism in Southeast Asia." If that was the case, and I must confess that I think that the spread of communism in that region was inevitable despite our best efforts, then the strongest American influence, with regard to what ultimately happened in Indochina, is attributable to social movement as opposed to the wishes of the military-industrial complex. This then, was the result of Americanism. If we are Patriots, we honor the results of Americanism, despite the fact that the results were not what some of us would have wished.

The above is the crux of the matter, in my humble opinion anyway. If the American public has the power to turn the tide against our involvement in war, it is a good thing, is it not?

pity2bu 9 years, 6 months ago

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meggers 9 years, 6 months ago

ragingbear- By definition, I believe civil disobedience requires that a law be broken. A lawful protest, complete with a permit, does not meet the definition. I'm sure the protesters knew they were breaking the law- that was the point.

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

Arminius:

My point is as follows. While the American public's influence might produce an undesirable result, the greater victory is that the public acted as a free people and made a difference.

In time of war, it might be tempting for our leaders to say "public opinion should be thrown out the window because they do not know what is right." That is dangerously close to the next step, which is "This wartime election (not this particular war or time, but in general) should not be held because we are at war and the anti-war forces might vote us out of office, with terrible consequences once we withdraw our forces, etc."

I believe that I understand your position. Not everthing should be a popularity contest. However, it is ultimately up to the public to decide whether our involvement in any war is the right thing.

Densmore 9 years, 6 months ago

from Arminius:

"I think there are times when leaders have to consider public opinion, yet act contrary to it when he believes it is necessary."

Agreed.

compmd 9 years, 6 months ago

oh my pity,

"i'm a true patriot and supporter! I have fought to keep your a**** free...Its people like us that have to fight so that people like you can breath our fresh air."

Its too bad you feel that people like me are beneath you. People like me, who have years of experience in law enforcement and most recently military aircraft systems and weapons system design, and I'm probably one of the youngest people in the field. Implementing passive IR seekers to air-to-ground missile platforms was one of my favorite projects. Sure, missile warning systems will go off if you fire at something, but there is no way to tell what the target is because nothing is actually "painted." Leaves the bad guys guessing.

How about directed energy weapons? I just finished a design with a few other engineers to develop a solid-state airborne laser platform. No muzzle flare like a gun, no plumes like a missile, minimal thermal gradient around the beam itself, completely silent, and invisible to the naked eye. It has an ablative effect on metals and can blow a quarter-sized hole through 1/2" high-carbon steel in half a second from a low-flying stealth aircraft 13,000 feet away. There are many types of missions in which this can be used. Also imagine the psychological effect on the enemy: stuff blowing up and no idea why. I can send you a copy of the preliminary design report if you'd like.

Unmanned surveillance aircraft are what I see a lot of now. Don't you think the pilot is much happier to not have AA fire and Stingers aimed at him?

No, I'm not in the sand with my finger on a trigger. I have great respect for the brave Americans who are, including yourself. Don't look down on all civilians. We know you're working to keep us safe. But there is a symbiosis that many people fail to recognize: they forget that there are lots of us working to keep you safe, too.

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