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Archive for Thursday, December 8, 2005

Mirecki resigns leadership position

Colleagues urge professor to give up chairmanship

December 8, 2005

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The embattled Kansas University religious studies professor who drew ire from Christian conservatives for his derisive remarks on an online discussion board has stepped down from his post as department chairman.

"Professor Mirecki said he thought it appropriate to step down and did so on the recommendation of his colleagues in the department, and I have accepted his resignation," Barbara Romzek, interim dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, said Wednesday. "This allows the department to focus on what's most important - teaching, research and service - and to minimize the distractions of the last couple of weeks."

The tenured professor who had planned to teach a course on intelligent design came under fire recently when his remarks about the course and other statements made on an Internet discussion board became public.

Mirecki said the class would "be a nice slap" in the "big fat face" of religious fundamentalists. He later canceled the course.

On Monday, he reported to local authorities that he was beaten by two men who made reference to the controversy. That incident is under investigation by the Douglas County Sheriff's Office. Lt. Kari Wempe, a sheriff's spokeswoman, said there were no new developments Wednesday.

An interim department chair has not been named.

Tim Miller, a professor in the department of religious studies, said Mirecki has chaired the department for about three and a half years. Miller said he hoped whatever happened next would be for the good of the department. He said he hadn't seen much of Mirecki recently.

"I don't think we know very much," Miller said of the reported incident.

KU spokeswoman Lynn Bretz declined to comment Wednesday about Monday's reported attack.

Andrew Stangl, president of the KU Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics, said he was disappointed that the university had not made a formal statement about the attacks and would be quite disappointed if the chancellor or others were not responding because of cowardice or a desire to see the matter go away.

As KU's Strong Hall keeps quiet in the wake of the reported attack, five of the city's religious leaders spoke out Wednesday.

Peter Luckey of Plymouth Congregational Church, Thad Holcombe of Ecumenical Christian Ministries, Gary Teske of Trinity Lutheran Church-ELCA, Raymond Fancher of First Presbyterian Church, and Randy Beeman of First Christian Church compiled a statement condemning the reported violence against Mirecki (read the statement).

"As religious leaders in the Lawrence community, we condemn the hate and violence escalating around this whole debate as contrary to the message of the Gospel we proclaim," the statement read.


Local religious leaders from left, the Rev. Thad Holcombe, campus minister at Ecumenical Christian Ministries, left, the Rev. Gary Teske of Trinity Lutheran Church, and the Rev. Peter Luckey, senior pastor of Plymouth Church, have released a statement on the reported attack of Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki.

Local religious leaders from left, the Rev. Thad Holcombe, campus minister at Ecumenical Christian Ministries, left, the Rev. Gary Teske of Trinity Lutheran Church, and the Rev. Peter Luckey, senior pastor of Plymouth Church, have released a statement on the reported attack of Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki.

Peter Luckey, senior pastor of Plymouth, said he wanted the country to know that there were people in Lawrence who were deeply offended by the reported attacks.

Teske, senior pastor of Trinity Lutheran, said he regretted the hurtful things that Mirecki said and also was alarmed at the response.

"I just think there needs to be some voices speaking out and calling for people to tone down," he said.

Teske said there were options beyond violence in words or deeds.

"It's the other options that hold the promise of us being able to live together, work together and find a common ground," he said.

Comments

David Theis 8 years, 4 months ago

Can intelligent design pass the following...until it does it gets no credit from this science teacher. I already babysit your kids, be the parent they don't have at home. Help them with their problems because they CAN trust us, now you want me to teach them religious based topics that they should get at church or at home but you are too busy with your life to do those so why not force it on them thru state BOE idiots, their day is limited we will eventually have total control of the BOE soon so enjoy the limelight, you know it wont last.

Here we go! 1. Make an observation. 2. Form a question based upon that observation. 3. Suggest an answer to that question based upon past experiences. 4. Plan your experiment. 5. Gather your data. 6. Record and organize your data. 7. Either ACCEPT or DO NOT ACCEPT your hypothesis based upon your data.

Scientific method folks, us scientists do it faithfully and daily. The simplest form is called Problem Solving. Most of all it is easy to do and most people do it. Enjoying my snow day and STILL teaching! Have a good day!

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Bob Forer 8 years, 4 months ago

Obviously, the professor's comments were not worthy of a college professor. But I am profoundly puzzled that the adminstration would make public statements condemning speech which is constiututionally protected. but remain silent when religious zealots remove from state educational standards firmly rooted and universally accepted scientific principles.

We are the laughing stock of the nation. And we can't just peel it off and stick it on the school board, no, not when the states flagship university sits on its thjumbs and looks out the window while a small band of zealots determime state educational tandards based on rigid fundamentalist religious dogma. As the leading educators in our state, are you not ashamed to sit on the sidelines silently while our state is bullied by a Kansas Taliban, who have the termerity to walk into your central olfficeds like a gestapo agent and demand that something they disagree with be stricken. By engaging them in discussion you legitimate their action. why do you think the KC columnist felt he could then issue a public threat to the newspaper to cut funding if you failed to comply with his request. I find it unbelievably outrageus that educated persons with a resposibilty to our great school and to basic Democratic principles would sit and take it while it is disseminated in the press with absoloutely no response. A vulgar intolerant individual with extreme views bullies and threatens us and we have no response???? . Isnt there one one person among you who can defend our honor. shame on all of you. I am embarrassed to call KU my alma mater

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Bob Forer 8 years, 4 months ago

I am amazed that not one faculty member has made a public statement of democracy. .outrage that the fundamentalists would dare ask, in a free society, for protected speech to be censors. these folks are dangerous (just the ones who try to foist their beliefs on the public as the official party line; I know some great ones who respect)

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MadAnthony 8 years, 4 months ago

Prof Mirecki's biased comments seemingly nixed him teaching the course, in the interest of dispassionate academics. KU will certainly still teach on creationism, id and evolution, as it certainly should. And it should in its schools of liberal arts. (See Jeremy Rifkin, dated work Algeny (1984) for a fine explanation as to why Darwin's theory caught on as well as it did, when it did. Good social science.)

Here is what you Mirecki disciples need to get. Mirecki's problems went from bad, but survivable, to worse, and possibly fatal from a career perspective, when he decided to report a beating at the hands of his ideological enemies. IF true, it should have helped him. But the burden of proof was his to make. He did not. He did not release med records (correct me if I am wrong) he did not give any detail to the police (correct me...) his story seemed contrived to many in the community and just too darn convenient AND none of his loyal disciples came forward to report that they had witnessed his wounds firsthand. (If I am wrong, who is voucing for him. The Provost did not.) Prof Mirecki is, it would seem, in hiding as far as the wounds are concerned.

Get this....the beating is what finished this prof off. He gambled in reporting it, and it appears that he lost. Instead of his peers being moved to pity and his defense, they were moved to take away his chair. They were the ones closest to the event and to Mirecki, not any of us guessers blogging this out. I trust them, even though most of them differ from me as to worldview like night and day. KU hung Mirecki on meat hooks, when they could have instead circled the wagons and protected him. Why? Maybe because they were scared of the big bad religious right. Maybe. But more likely because they simply did not believe the professor. It is a tragic loss for Mericki, and I do feel compassion for him. That being said, he poured the cup and it will not pass. He must drink it like a man, and the chips must fall where they will.

In other words, get off of the free speech crap. This is about so much more than free speech. If you do not realize that you are willfully ignorant.

And you disciples of the Evil Dr.P do not really believe in respecting free speech either. Correct me if I am wrong, but had Mirecki been a conservative Christian K-State science prof who stated on a private board that he found Darwin nothing but an apologist for the British Empire and a white supremacist, and this hypothetical prof had shared that he studied cellular science, astrophysics, probability theory and the ancient writings and, after all of that, decided that ID was the only theory that made any sense,......would you be defending his right to free speech, or calling for his immediate termination to save Kansas from being humiliated in the national spotlight.

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cowgomoo 8 years, 4 months ago

I've yet to see someone accurately define fundamentalism. It's easy enough to look up. The basic tenets are taught in the majority of evangelical churches. Summed up, it is a belief in (or that)... (1)Scripture is without error or fault (2) the virgin birth and deity of Christ; (3) the substitutionary view of the atonement; (4) the bodily resurrection of Christ; (5) The imminent return of Christ.

I ascribe to all of the above, but I don't think that ID should be taught in science class, that men rode on dinosaurs, that the earth is 6000 years old, or that Prof. Mirecki is an evil person.

I do think that Prof. Mirecki's class was a proper academic topic, that he had a right to say what he did, that I have an equal right to speak out against such statements and that to do so is not censorship.

Most evangelicals that I know and have spoken with agree with all the above.

It's easy to buy into stereotypes and it's fun to knock down boogey strawmen, but it's not very useful in the final analysis.

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Bob Forer 8 years, 4 months ago

During the last few months six Christian Fundamentalists, who believe in a literal translation of the entire Bible (i.e., the earth is 6,000 years old, etc) have declared war on our freedoms as Kansans and Americans and seek to foist their narrow, militant, backward,.sexist, and racist nonsense on an entire state. Without scientific backgrounds and armed with paid professional "experts" with clear religious bias, they staged a hearing that made the State of Kansas the laughing stock of the world. At the conclusion of the hearing they arrogant removed from the Kansas classrooms universally accepted science beyond reproach as if it belonged to them save a handful of "scientists" whose religious belief system proclaims as "truth" the entire word for work statements of ancient religious tracts of the dark ages. Ironically, they are afforded the opportunity to practice a minority, backward and primitive faith by virtue of the First Amendment, but also wish to force beliefs down the throats of an entire state like a bunch of Nazis. They are also driven by the same delusional malice of early Christians who sought conversion of Jews, and if not forthcoming, Jewish murder. Ths is fascism. And in the midst of the battle Chancellor Hemmeway offers his position that there is room for creation, when better judgment dictates that he refrain from adopting or extolling religious views. Shame on you

And for you, Provost. After the course is announced one of the conspirators an intolerant religious bully seeking to usurp our free society as his own medieval fiefdom of religion fascism demands that you interfere and censor a legitimate academic pursuit and you give him audience and engage in discussion as if he has a legitimate request??? . This man has plans to extend his hegemony of thought, and therefore seek elimination of what you has been already accepted as worthy of academic pursuit, and is protected by the first amendment and you tolerate and legitimate,. When an religious Nazi comes into the central academic office of a major American university , the only American thing to do is to show him the door . That you are entrusted with protecting our most important , and commodity, free knowledge and the discussion of ideas, and you discuss it??? The account of it appears in the newspaper

,

And where are the rest of the faculty members and administrators. I am not suggesting that the Prof.'s comments were well advised, but professor has free speech guarantees. You are not requireded to say anything, but you do???

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MadAnthony 8 years, 4 months ago

P.S. Thanks be to god (or the rocks of the Royal Gorge) or the goddess or whatever the beating that may soon come will be a slight one, given the beaters. Unless they turn out to be profs from K-State, that is.

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MadAnthony 8 years, 4 months ago

Given the lack of support Doc Mirecki is receiving from his academic and administrative overlords, and given that the resounding silence may portend his academic demise at KU, I (shuuder) fear that he may soon be beat once again, this time by effete academes in scarlet caps and wool gowns exiting a Scion with Greenpeace bumber stickers while muttering something about degree envy.

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Harry_Manback 8 years, 4 months ago

Poetic-

I didn't say that stuff you said I did. I was quoting someone else. I'm not a Christian, but I don't think intoleration of anyone is ok.

In fact, since you said i should watch south park, how about we all go to "Toleration Camp" together.

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topeka 8 years, 4 months ago

Laughing (my friend),

With regards to Mirecki, you say you don't know him and you've never met him before. Neither do I, and neither have I.

Now, interestingly....

I believe that his physical assault claim, from the way in which he has described it, sounds a little strange. Evidently, you feel just the opposite. You seem to think that what he says happened to him is highly plausible (and more than likely). I think I can correctly assume that you are going by a hunch......just like me. So, in a sense, we are both going by a hunch......but we are coming to two different conclusions.

As far as ID goes.......I believe it's possible that there is a "higher plain/state-of-consciousness beyond "life on Earth". Did that someone or someting create Earth? I don't know. We'll never know...."until we get to the other side", as they say. I sure as heck hope that when we all die our bodies don't just simply decompose.....and then that's it! That's the end of you and me! Nothing more! No higher state of consciousness and/or awareness. That, to me, would be a pretty depressing thought! Depressing in oh-so-many ways! I mean, you'd like to think that there's a reason for why we all are capable of doing good deeds. When we do good deeds for others, we do it to make them feel better, to make us feel better, and, hopefully,we do good deeds so that we can "rest peacefully" in the next world (wherever and whatever that may be). And for all of those people who spent their whole lives doing bad things to other people (and now they are deceased) I believe that they are in a place where they are very much aware of what they have done while on Earth and now they are in a perpetual state of anguish, regret, torment, and sorrow!

I personally think that if there is something "out there" it will directly consist of what you and I made of it while we were here on Earth living our daily lives. You know that old saying...."You made your bed, now lie in it!" (Or is it "lay in it"?? I always get that expression confused!)......Well, as long as we each draw breath here on Earth, we are all in the process of "making our own beds".

So, that's the extent of my "beliefs beyond Earth" goes.

Have a good night, Laughing.

I'll be talking to you soon!

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Bubarubu 8 years, 4 months ago

Crispian, please don't talk without at least minimal information. Tay-Sachs is statistically more common among Ashkenazic Jews (Eastern European descent), but Epstein-Barr is mononucleosis. Mono is the "kissing" disease, notoriously common among college students, not the Jewish disease...unless you're implying that we Jews are more likely to be "kissing"...

More importantly, however, I think you're not wrong about Mirecki's motives in resigning. Remember, he got beaten up while driving around and thinking his way through some things. It is entirely possible that what preceded his attack had led him to reconsider his position already.

I'd also stand with kes18. I don't know Dr. Mirecki, but I have heard from some people who have taken classes with him and they have said nothing but good things. In their opinion, he has been respectful, rigorous, and scholarly in class. As an undergrad, I took a class on Islam from the city's Lutheran pastor. The only reason I knew he held a position outside of the university was because I saw his name on their sign while driving around. His interest in Islam was academic, not personal, but 7 years later, his class is still one of my favorites and one that has affected me deeply. His lack of bias, his interest in the material as an object of study, and his devotion to the education of his students reflected the highest standards of academia. Students of Dr. Mirecki's say the same things about him. Sure he made a mistake, and a substantial one at that, but his scholarly reputation is more then enough to keep him in classrooms on Mt. Oread.

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laughingatallofu 8 years, 4 months ago

A couple of comments...

First of all, let me say this: I don't know who Prof. Mirecki is, never met the man. But, he is a tenured professor at KU. Most of you probably don't know what that means, or how you attain that status. If you don't, you ought to Google the terms "tenure" and "academic freedom" and see what you come up with.

While you're at it, you might also look up "privacy", "freedom of speech", and "first amendment" and see what pops up in your browser.

Some of you who have a brain (and not just a keyboard and a web browser) may be able to connect some of those terms and figure out what I'm talking about.

My guess is that Prof. Mirecki is going through hell right now. Some of the hell he deserves, most of it he doesn't. Put your self in his position and think about how you would handle the press, the bloggers (yes, that means you and I), the guys in the pickup truck, etc.

Prof Mirecki isn't the only academician under the gun. Check out:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10369726/

Now, granted, the guy in the above article is an untenured professor, but he is being let go not because he wasn't a productive member of Yale, but because he stirred up some "controversy".

Maybe KU got it's instructions from Yale.

I'm rambling, and there's more snow to shovel. I'll let the rest of you hash this out.

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citizenx 8 years, 4 months ago

Umm, no one ever called all Christians fundamentalist Christians. Why would we? Those who are fundamentalist, are. Think the universe is 6,300 years old? If this is your belief, you= fundie. Did people ride on dinosaurs and did Noah's Flood occur? Is Noah's Ark on top of Mount Ararat? If you think so, you= fundie.

Teaching religion as science would be a fundamentalist idea. Having faith in naturalistic axioms or laws until they are proven otherwise, in order to solve real-world problems is not teaching science as religion, as some might say. That's science. However, ID is teaching religion as science. Which is horrible, because ID is clearly not science.

In the modern world, the interpenetration of some disciplines by others is not a good idea. If you hate modernity, then you must want to go back to the dark ages! If that is the case, you're probably a fundamentalist. Modern science requires a separation of different disciplines--if you don't like that, move to Iran or maybe Cambodia--somewhere where they think the state religion thing is awesome.

We would all be lost without science as we would all be lost without God. Who ever said God doesn't belong in this whole thing--just in a different context! All fundies are free to think about how God might have caused evolution to happen, but it might be a frusturating matter. Thinking about this is not rational--it's requiring faith. In my state University science course, you fundies need to stay the fukk out of the curriculum. I won't go calling religion science, either. So this is all quite fair.

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Godot 8 years, 4 months ago

ruskastud said: "this is a discussion about stupid white people..."

This is illuminating. I've been trying to pinpoint just who "fundies" are, according to SOMA. SOMA members on this forum have tried to tell us that they believe a fundie is anyone who has an anti-modernist view of religion.

Now it is clear that "fundie" is actually code language for "white fundamentalist christian." I might be willing to bet it is even narrower than that. It might mean "white, southern or midwestern, Christian."

And here they were trying to make us think their dislike of fundies had nothing to do with race. tsk tsk.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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Crispian Paul 8 years, 4 months ago

It's called Epstein Barr (the "Jewish" disease). Also, Tay Sachs is common in "ethnic jews"

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Crispian Paul 8 years, 4 months ago

He's tenured. Can't fire him. He didn't resign altogether, just as dept head. And for all of you who would use this as proof of your POV that he deserved to be fired and/or beaten and/or that he's a liar, he did say that he was resigning due to public backlash....I think he may have meant being beaten up because of his exercise of free speech. What irritates me the most about some of you conservative folks is that you often are all for curtailing free speech that you dislike, yet support our president who went to war to defend our "freedoms" and "way of life" which, gasp, includes freedom of speech. Ya can't have it both ways ya'll

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CanadianPassport 8 years, 4 months ago

Good one :) I'm going to hit the road now and slap my own fat face so I don't fall asleep on the way home.

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ruskastud 8 years, 4 months ago

CanadianPassport- While your reference to Dave Chapelle was clever, this is a discussion about stupid white people... And no, I'm not referring to any sides with that statement.... (however, I really am referring to the ID freaks)

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CanadianPassport 8 years, 4 months ago

Can we just go back to arguing about whether or not the beating was faked?

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kes18 8 years, 4 months ago

The majority of people don't realize that we use the word "myth" or "mythology" as a term that has neither negative or positive connotations. A myth is nothing more than a narrative about a sacred reality which is supposed to disclose information about the ultimate truth concerning basic human questions (such as the origins of life or the cosmos). Therefore, the creation stories of the Bible are myth. On the other hand, I'm aware that Mirecki knew that most people would look at the word "myth" and think that it meant a false belief and that's why he thought it would be a slap in the face to the fundamentalists. Aside from the intent of using the term, there is absolutely nothing wrong with labeling the biblical creation stories as myth.

As I was saying before, we need a professor like him because of his areas of expertise. What if I wanted to take a class on the Dead Sea Scrolls, Mirecki worked directly underneath some of the people who first worked on translating the material. What other professor KU would have given me the opportunity to take a class such as that? Who would have been more qualified than Mirecki here at KU? Well, no one. For the record, I never heard anything which could have been construed as anti-Jewish comments in that class. And if it hadn't been for how much I enjoyed Mirecki's classes and his insight, I doubt I would be a religion major right now.

Someone should not be fired based on personal beliefs, especially when they don't even come across in their teaching (which by the way, is how the academic study of religion works....for all of you who don't know that).

I hope Mirecki continues to teach classes in the department of Religion (and no he should not be moved to any other department at KU). I, for one, would be more than happy to enroll.

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kes18 8 years, 4 months ago

The articles I've read say that Mirecki still plans to teach at KU. I can honestly say that the department of Religious Studies needs a professor like him. Many people here fail to grasp the idea that personal opinions should be separate from the academic study of religion. In all, they fail to grasp the concept of the academic study of religion and how it works objectively. I've had classes with Mirecki (over Jewish and Christian topics) and I've never heard any negative remarks about any beliefs.

I've heard comments from other people in the classes about why they don't like his teaching. But let me say this, the topics they had problems with were not Mirecki's personal opinions. The topics (such as who wrote the Bible?) and the conclusions of these topics discussed in class are overall HEAVILY SUPPORTED by the majority of religious scholars. I think that this is what many people don't realize. And to criticize Mirecki or the Religion dept. here at KU is outrageous. If someone has a problem with the topic above, they really should be criticizing the academic study of religion as a whole. This, in my opinion, is a result of people criticizing something they don't understand.

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CanadianPassport 8 years, 4 months ago

Grownups know that you won't be held in high esteem if you make sweeping generalizations about groups of people. Mirecki's comments were obviously public (good move!) and obviously in poor taste. And to give the impression that you're teaching a class just to piss people off displays some real knuckle-dragging stupidity. You generally don't get away with that when your job requires you to be respectable and highly visable to the public. That's why Mirecki is in trouble with the principal. Yeah, though, he definitely had a right to say it. It's just a freakin' idiotic thing to do if you'd like to keep your job. For further explanation of this, see Dave Chapelle's "When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong."

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opinionated2 8 years, 4 months ago

ive... what is wrong with the hillbilly nature? NOTHING!!! Happy season to you too!

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Ember 8 years, 4 months ago

Oh please.

If Jay Leno had suggested Mirecki's class during his opening monologue, how many would have gotte up in arms over it? I HIGHLY doubt that there would be people clamoring for his removal as the host.

So Dr. Mirecki had an opinion. Gasp.

He shared that opinion with others. Double gasp!

Are people that are involved with education not allowed to have an opinion? The man works in the Religious Studies department, and he was still able to garner enough support that the class would have been added to the list of classes available the next semester.

And as to my 'thick skinned' comment earlier.

Everyone in this country is so paranoid about insulting someone that it is becoming pathetic.

Stereo types are a bad thing, but if you are NOT acting along the lines of the stereo type, what is the problem? At that point, they are simply words. Big deal.

I notice no one goes out of their way to avoid the phrase 'white trash'. Never heard anyone say Caucasian trash.

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

PHS -

I accept what you say with the exception of two words:

"without repurcussion (sic)"

All actions have consequences, and all words can be overheard, transmitted, or taken out of their original context. One should recognize that and work under the assumption that there is really no such thing as a totally safe venue and there is no guarantee of privacy whatsoever in this life.

Being an adult about engaging in debate on sensitive topics means understanding that every word, every phrase, every opinion has a potential consequence, and not lamenting or claiming you're being deliberately attacked when you are reaping the whirlwind sown by your own speech. You may reserve the right to be insulting, arrogant, disrespectful and rude, and I shall not gainsay you. You may not, however, retain the right to be so without also accepting the consequences of that decision.

The uproar of the last few weeks is the consequence of the exercise of free speech, the consequence of the expectation that one can say whatever one wants, even if it's offensive to others. I am saddened that it's brought out such rancor and disagreement in places like this, and that KU has responded with so little character, and that people seem to regard direct attacks on people as an appropriate means to respond to what could be an insightful and thought-provoking debate.

You say you accord Christians (I'm assuming that you speak of them as a whole in this) the respect 'most people' accord Raelians or Scientologists. When you make a dismissive blanket statement like that, it may be accurate, and it may be your right to say it, but you should understand that if that is how you will express yourself, the response to what you say will be colored through that filter.

We are all, ultimately, accountable for our own words and ideas.

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

I grant Christains as much respect as most people grant Scientologists and Raelians.

Although I disagree, I respect your personal beliefs and lifestyle. At the same time I accept the fact that there will always be some people who disrespect other peoples' religious beliefs and lifestyles. As the bumper sticker says, "Kansas...as bigoted as you think." I also agree with the bumper sticker that says "Hate is not a family value". I wish more people felt that way. People shouldn't call a person a terrorist just because they happen to be Muslim, a fat-faced fundie just because they happen to be Christian, or refer to all Wiccans as devil worshipers. Such sweeping generalizations simply aren't true and are quite hillbilly in nature. It's wrong to use other peoples' hate as an excuse for us to hate as well. That having been said, I'd like to wish everyone a healthy and happy Festivus season.

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MadAnthony 8 years, 4 months ago

Any guesses on the headline for the next Mirecki story?

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

Badger - points well taken. Perhaps you're right, but I still maintain our right to be insulting and even belligerent, within our own discussions.

When it translates into "going after" people because they believe differently than I do, I think then we have a problem. As you pointed out, we have been constantly under attack by people often unwilling to even fully recognize our status as citizens or patriots, let alone equals.

It may be unwise or even an inferior idea to retaliate in kind, verbally, but we maintain the right to do it without repurcussion... just as I would maintain the right of the next religious studies department head to declare that "atheism is morally bankrupt" or some other drivel without calling for his job.

I do my best to be respectful of my fellow citizens, but I cannot grant special status to one idea just because people ask me to. I grant Christains as much respect as most people grant Scientologists and Raelians. I attack fundamentalists of all veins, even atheist fundies, on the rare occasions I encounter them. I think that's plenty fair.

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

Dickie - it should be obvious to anyone else that the guy saw the Star of David and mistook her for someone born of Jewish blood, which he clearly had racial issues with.

I am from the deep south. We have lots of people who talk like that-- I believe 99% of them are Christains... but that's beside the point. Judaism is a bit tough because they have largely conflated the ethnicity and the belief system, but "kike" remains an ethnic slur and not a religious slur. If you use it as a religious slur it means you're a moron, like that guy. Surely you can grasp this?

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

PoeticHeteroSapien said:

"Harry, I don't understand why you (and apparently a lot of Christians) can't grasp the difference between an ethnic/racial slur, and a religion. Religion is an idea. Ethnicity is a person. You have a religion. You ARE your ethnicity. Really, I don't see how hard this is to grasp.

I can pick on Judaism, Atheism, or Islam all day, even by calling them funny names. What I cannot do is pick on the ethnicities that make up those groups. That is why it is fine to call me a "heathen" in fun, but not to call me a "cracker." My atheism is an idea, and thus is open to public ridicule and scrutiny. Period."

Actually, being Jewish can be an ethnicity, Poetic. Though it's a religion, there are also those who consider themselves ethnic Jews. There's at least one genetic disorder (I can't quite recall the name of it; it's a hyphenated name) that is considered to be unique to the Jewish population, and rarely found outside of it. The admissions form at my university allowed you to choose 'Jewish' if you opted to give them your race/ethnicity.

For some, the lines blur about ideologies, lifestyles, and ethnic or cultural identities. For me, it's simple enough to suggest that mocking and belittling someone because of what they are (female, black, gay, blind) or what they believe (pagan, Christian, atheist, Republican, moderate) is still mocking and belittling them either way.

Things like South Park aren't mocking Catholicism or Christianity or even Robert Smith of the Cure. They mock extremism, and they make fun of people whose image has overtaken their substance. The satire of those who become hyperbolic and hysterical parodies of what they claim to represent doesn't present justification to treat others disrespectfully simply because you think their beliefs are 'funny'.

You may respond that the 'fundies' attacked you, your beliefs, or those you care about. Be that as it may, their ill-bred actions do not justify anyone else's attacks on them, including yours or the professor's. They make the attacks understandable, and I may agree with the sentiment that lay under them, but all the same attacking someone based on his beliefs is a dangerous fight to get into, and one that should be entered into with the full understanding that there will be blood and it will be ugly. The far right has shown an absolute willingness to draw that blood and start those fights, and it's much to my chagrin to observe how often those who claim to be on the side of reason allow themselves to be provoked into unwise displays of temper and hubris.

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

Yeah Godot, same to you. Thanks for picking and choosing what I say, rather than listening to what I'm saying overall.

When the dominant group tries to dominATE people, I fight against them.

Wouldn't you, if you weren't part of it? You should too, as part of it, but I know it's a bit much to expect.

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

Dickie -- please listen to what I am saying before you mouth off again.

The word "kike" would be an ethnic slur against people of the Jewish ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Jew is an ethnicity. You can be a Jew and not believe in Judaism, and vice versa. I know two people peronally who practice Judaism who are not born Jewish.

================= My friend Joyce was not born Jewish either. A drunk at a Blackhawks game in Chicago called her a kike when he saw her star of David necklace after she bumped into him, causing him to spill his drink. Seeing that she was a Jew, he felt it necessary to insult her religion. Are you saying that Jewish converts should not be offended when someone calls them a kike? I find that unfathomable. I despise such hateful speech.

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Godot 8 years, 4 months ago

PHS said, " I'll continue to fight against the dominant religious group in this country "

I am so verklempt. Just last week you made a big deal out of not being "against" Christianity, but rather "for tolerance." And I believed you. Now look what you've gone and done.

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topeka 8 years, 4 months ago

I have a feeling that Mister Mirecki's days of both living and working in Lawrence are numbered.

But that's okay, I wouldn't worry about him and his future, if I were one of his supporters! He'll land on his feet someplace else, and he'll be just fine! After all, there's plenty of other college towns in other states that would just love to have him live in their town and be a part of their campus! I'm absolutely sure of it!

Good luck, Mister Mirecki!

"Mister Mirecki....Boulder, Colorado is on the phone! Line one, sir!"

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

Dickie -- please listen to what I am saying before you mouth off again.

The word "kike" would be an ethnic slur against people of the Jewish ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Jew is an ethnicity. You can be a Jew and not believe in Judaism, and vice versa. I know two people peronally who practice Judaism who are not born Jewish.

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blue73harley 8 years, 4 months ago

jackmofo - as a certified redneck, I have taken no offense at your posts today and have found them amusing. As for pickups, sure I have one. It's an '86 F150 Supercab long bed with fake bullet holes, real rust and a seat as big as the sofa in your house. But I don't know anyone with a red visor and I have never stalked a professor...honest.

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

I can pick on Judaism, Atheism, or Islam all day, even by calling them funny names.

I could never imagine calling anyone a kike, as was once experienced by my friend Joyce who had converted to Judaism some years ago. But I suppose it is your right to say such things. I respect other people's religious beliefs and lifestyles. Some people feel the need to be bigots. I guess it makes them feel better. Like the bumper sticker says...

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ModSquadGal 8 years, 4 months ago

Poetic-Hetero-Sapien:
You hit the nail on the head. Brilliant.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

Oooohhhh snaps! You'll done pissed off Poetic now! You get em' Poetic!

opinionated2 The cookie will be in yoor Holiday stocking.

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pepper_bar 8 years, 4 months ago

Posted by PoeticHeteroSapien (anonymous) on December 8, 2005 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"You have a religion. You ARE your ethnicity. Really, I don't see how hard this is to grasp."

Wow. Well, this is certainly one point of view.

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

Ascot -

I am tolerant. If you think "tolerant" means I have to respect it, you're just wrong. Seriously.

I tolerate your religion in that I would never try to prevent anyone from freely practicing their religion as they see fit. In fact, I work really hard to fight FOR religious tolerance and freedom, along with the rest of SOMA, as has been pointed out. We work with the Wiccan Pagan Alliance, and many of the other religious student groups on campus, to put on events that help us understand one another so we can all live in harmony. Is that not tolerance?

You seem to think "tolerance" means giving your ideas some special, protected status, free from ridicule and scrutiny. Or you think that just because this idea is dear to you, that it must be dear to me, somehow. If you expect me to bow down in holy reverence to the idea of the Judaeo-Christian Yahweh/Jehovah, or to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and never say anything bad about those who think they are real, you're just plain out of your mind.

The "Kansas: As bigoted as you think" stickers were, I remind you, a reaction to the OVERWHELMING RESPONSE BY CHRISTIANS against a community of people very dear to me-- homosexuals. Many of my dear friends are gay or lesbian, and I watched the Christian right in this state attack them in word and deed.

I say again, until the Christians genuinely respect the beliefs of others that are different from their own, they DO NOT get to ask the rest of us to grant their own ideas any protection. In the meantime, I'll continue to fight against the dominant religious group in this country as they continue to attack my friends and I, and laugh when they claim they are the ones under attack even as they pass anti-gay-marriage (and also anti-unmarried-couples) amendments to our state constitution based almost entirely on the majority religious belief.

In other words: HA!

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

Can anyone quote me calling anyone thrashy? I will give you a cookie.

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

Poetic "I've learned something today....." I hope all out there do the same. Learning and science can be fun!!!!

If everyone would eat Chef's "Chocolate Salty Balls", the world would be a better place.

Peace

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

There is NOTHING that says anyone should be even remotely respectful of your ideas about God, I'm sorry.

Apology accepted. I understand that it's not easy for some people to be tolerant. As the bumper sticker says, "Kansas...as bigoted as you think."

In the meantime, I'll respect your beliefs, the same way I respect everyone else's.

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allateup 8 years, 4 months ago

Prospector: People use this blog to say what they THINK all of the time. Get over it!

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

<<>> -HarryManback

Harry, I don't understand why you (and apparently a lot of Christians) can't grasp the difference between an ethnic/racial slur, and a religion. Religion is an idea. Ethnicity is a person. You have a religion. You ARE your ethnicity. Really, I don't see how hard this is to grasp.

I can pick on Judaism, Atheism, or Islam all day, even by calling them funny names. What I cannot do is pick on the ethnicities that make up those groups. That is why it is fine to call me a "heathen" in fun, but not to call me a "cracker." My atheism is an idea, and thus is open to public ridicule and scrutiny. Period.

There is NOTHING that says anyone should be even remotely respectful of your ideas about God, I'm sorry.

The only thing that must respect your ideas about God is the government and its various parts-- because it is a government of you and of me. That means it also has to respect my ideas about God as well, though, in schools and in courts and before the law.

But Christians often work very hard to make the government and its components hostile to my ideas about God-- where's the respect in that? I don't see you crying about the fact that my children will be forced to say "under God" as part of their pledge, because of the actions of Christians to change that pledge in 1954 from its original neutral tone.

When you start respecting my beliefs in all things, THEN you can demand that we do the same for yours. Until that day, fuhgeddaboutit.

Really, get over yourselves. And go watch some South Park.

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

Stop thinking and say only what you know.

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topeka 8 years, 4 months ago

I'm thinking of one word/thing right now (with relation to Mirecki).

"Titanic"

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lv2ride 8 years, 4 months ago

jackmofo...

If you get a kick out of being an idiot, that is fine I am just sorry that you are waisting others time doing it. I am NOT putting words in your mouth, they came right out of it, your mouth. I am finished with your immature game!! If you want to stereotype people that is on your shoulders. Thanks but I don't smoke. Like I said, Have a wonderful day.

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neopolss 8 years, 4 months ago

PoeticHeteroSapien, I find your post to be right on the money. I hoestly have no problems with Merry Christmas either, and recognize that some say happy holidays because of the fact that their is more than one holiday in these months. I tend to roll my eyes more and more these days. People upset because Christianity is not up front and on display. I wonder how offended they would be if the President had sent out Islamic cards? Or Hanukah? I'm sure then I'd hear how they don't need religion being pushed on them.

Silly.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

liv2ride,

Nobody called anyone that a has a truck "trashy". You are putting words in my mouth. The fact is that the "alleged attackers" were driving a "pick up truck" and anyone who attacks people on the side of the rode is crazy. ok. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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cavtrooper 8 years, 4 months ago

If in fact Mr Mirecki was assulted he will face a real struggle to gain any sort of crediblity. No witnesses, little to no evidence besides his statement and injuries that might be self-inflicted. Worst of all the FACT that over the last decade there have been at least 15 incidents of faked incidents involving (use your favorite label) liberal/progressive/anti-Christian/loony lefties who claimed to be victims. They turned out to be liars who faked evidence and used the platform of these "hate crimes" to further their cause in the media and inflame public opinion. I do agree that there is a possiblity that Mr Mirecki WAS soundly thrashed, however there is the possiblity that he was the instigator of the incident and got thumped for running his mouth and aggresive driving. Feeling that his 'civil rights" to engage in verbal abuse and willful violation of common courtesy had been violated he decided to file a modified version of the attack to both cover his butt and make a good martyr for the cause in the process. Just a thought, but feel free to flame! I helped to protect the 1st so I feel I have the right to use it...

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kuthruandthru 8 years, 4 months ago

"On a broader level, why do we even allow KU to teach Religious Studies? Isn't this getting pretty close to the State of Kansas endorsing or promoting religion? I'm not really comfortable with tax dollars being spent for this. Anyone else share my concerns?"

Religion is more than just faith, it is an incredibly powerful cultural influence. No your tax dollars aren't supporting a religion, KU offers a plethora of courses on a variety of different religions. Now if someone said that only christianity could be taught at KU, then you should be concerned.

I took the Living Religions of the East course when I was at KU and I didn't convert to Budhism, Hindu, or any other religion we learned about, but I did gain insight how different religions came to believe what they do. So now when I meet someone who is Islamic, I know who Muhammad was and why his life was so important.

Even an athiest has to agree that religion has played a powerful role in the development of our cilivization. So to say your tax dollars shouldn't be used to promote religion, well sleep tight knowing that there is no promoting going on, just teaching.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 4 months ago

Mirecki's only mistake was to assume that the "private" forum he was posting on was indeed private. And there is no evidence whatsoever that he conducts his classes any differently from the others you took in the KU religious studies dept.

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lv2ride 8 years, 4 months ago

jackmofo...

ok, you may calm down. I am not the one getting bent out of shape, I simply stated that maybe they were people who, have nothing to do with being country or "redneck" at all, driving a truck! chuck norris or not, that is stereotyping country people as being bad. and yes I can be sarcastic with the best of them but not when it is repeatedly "joked" about (as you put it). I am particular about how people refer to the country life style because so many times it gets turned into "trashy people" as you have managed to do today. That is like when people classify ones who live in a trailer house as "trailer trash"- UNCALLED FOR!!! Maybe I should have directed this towards EVERYONE who have made the stereotyping comments throughout these forums, but today it has just been you making the comments. It takes more energy to get upset...I was just posting my opinion. Do with it as you wish. oh, and Jackmofo, have a wonderful day!!!

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Harry_Manback 8 years, 4 months ago

No, Harry, he expressed his honest opinion about an intolerant and willfully ignorant group and their efforts to impose their superstitions on everyone else

PS to Dr. Mirecki- Don't piss off the wrong people!

I agree that some Christians are like this, but he overgeneralizes and makes it seem like he dislikes Christianity, and that everyone who believes in Creationism or ID is crazy and wrong. He may think that, and so may I a little bit, but it's not his place to pass judgement upon others at the expense of the university.

He wants to illustrate the ignorance of the religious right by blasting all Christians, which in turn makes him look just as ignorant!

I had no problem with this class being taught, I just believe that they should have someone who's a little more objective about it.

I've taken several religious studies classes at KU, and they all try to remain impartial. However I did take a religion class once (at JCCC) in which the Bible was taught not as literature (as it should've been), but as the truth. It felt like I was in Sunday school. What Mirecki would have done with this class is the opposite of my experience, but it's no more right or justifiable.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

Praise Be to The Great Swift Kicker!

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 4 months ago

No, Harry, he expressed his honest opinion about an intolerant and willfully ignorant group and their efforts to impose their superstitions on everyone else (who happen to outnumber this group.) He did so on what was at least nominally a private forum, not a public one.

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

Those of you blaspheming Chuck Norris (peace be upon him) need to stop! It is my belief that Chuck Norris (peace be upon him) is the only one who can save us from ourselves. As we find ourselves hurling hateful words at our fellow citizens, atheists, fundamentalists and pickup truck owners, we certainly deserve a flying front-kick to our collective sternum from Mr. Norris (peace be upon him) to knock us down and help us re-examine our priorities.

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Harry_Manback 8 years, 4 months ago

Will someone please explain to me why we have to be so careful of everyone's feelings?

Whatever happened to being thick skinned?

Call somebody a "Chink" or a "Darkie" and let us know how that works out for you. If they get angry, tell them to be more thick-skinned. I prefer to show people respect, regardless of their background or religious beliefs. Lack of tolerance is why people say Kansas is "as bigoted as you think."

I agree. His intentions were discriminatory, pure and simple. Even though he discriminated against the majority, it was still discrimination. He made the university look bigoted.

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

Smitty, if you'll note, I said that where I live is populated by the under-40 crowd (leaving me no walks to shovel for elderly neighbors), and that the population of elderly shutins surfing the net is a fairly small one, which it is.

Nowhere in that was the statement that there's no one here over 40, or that the elderly are technologically illiterate. sticks out tongue and makes faces

And just put a little piece of black electrical tape over the blinking 12:00 like everyone else does. It's a secret kept from those over 40 that no one actually knows how to program a VCR, but we come over, push some buttons, and tell you that it should work just fine now. We also stick our heads under the sink, tap the garbage disposal a couple-three times with the wrench, and then say, "No, sorry, the whole unit is shot. We'll have to call a plumber or get a new one."

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Calliope877 8 years, 4 months ago

PoeticHeteroSapien,

Good post. I thought Jon Stewart did a good job for challenging O'Riley. O'Riley calling Comedy Central "Secular Central" blatantly expressed his lack of humor and overwhelming stupidity.

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newssleuth2814 8 years, 4 months ago

lv2ride,

Jackmofo hit it on the dot with his "Crazy Redneck" comment because these losers followed a man and when they caught up to him beat him enough to send him to the hospital. This could be considered "Crazy Redneck" behavior

No matter what you try to call them, they're essentially worthless %##^&* trash that are sorry excuses for country people or whatever else they might claim themselves to be.

I hope they're caught and arrested and get 10 times the abuse in prison, but maybe that's a little to much "redneck justice."

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smitty 8 years, 4 months ago

badger, all this nonsense has been posted by the under 40 crowd? Thank gawd! I was loosing faith in my generation there for a while.

love and peace analog senior

BTW can you help me program my vcr?

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

For Pete's sake I was talking about Chuck Freakin Norris! lv2ride it's called sarcasm.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

Jeez......lv2ride......relax.....it's called a joke.

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lv2ride 8 years, 4 months ago

jackmofo...

He will be the only one who can fend of all the "Crazy Rednecks" driving around in their "Big Pick Up Trucks"!

Tell me, Why is it that just because they are from Kansas and drove a "Big Pick Up Truck", they are "Crazy Rednecks"!!! YOU are giving the "country" people a bad name. Just because people drive pick up trucks and live in a rural area...does NOT mean they are all bad. The people driving that "Big Pick Up Truck" could have never stepped foot on a farm or in a rural area, for that matter, before that morning. anyone for sterio-typing? Just contact Jackmofo for a session.

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PoeticHeteroSapien 8 years, 4 months ago

What part of "you are the largest social group so you will be the target of the majority of lampooning jokes" do the Christians not get?

All this talk of Christian intolerance is absolute and utter horse crap! I think Jon Stewart put it best:

"Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion.... perhaps around their necks? And maybe--dare I dream it?--maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively."

Secularists put up with assaults, smears against our names, and insults/name-calling pretty much constantly throughout our adult lives. We're called communists, compared to Hitler, and assumed to me absolutely without morals everwhere we go. We're misrepresented and derided and it's almost entirely due to the overwhelmingly Christian majority's leaders INTENTIONALLY (we think) spreading misinformation about how we think and why we say what we say. You only need to visit any average Christainity discussion forum to see it.

On South Park last night, a statue of the virgin Mary crapped blood onto the head of the Pope. In this country, we do things like that. But Matt and Trey are paid a million bucks for it, and Paul loses his job because Christians feel oppressed even while they control everying, even most of the laws.

Intelligent Design IS motivated by religion. The religionists have been clear about this. Mirecki told the truth, even if he did it with a sneer, in what he felt was a relatively private are that would NOT offend anyone who did not go there intentionally seeking to be offended. And you have done nothing but assassinate his character for it ever since.

And as an avid atheist, I have no real problem with Christmas celebrations-- it's the major holiday of the largest social group in the country. I get it. What I DON'T like is the National Day of Prayer in which the (oppressed) fundamentalist Christians gather with the governors and senators of various states to pray on the steps of their state capitols to the Christian God, while those of us not in the mainstream watch from the sidelines, waiting for our 43rd Christian President to make his statement in support of these oppressed capitol-steps-praying-people.

The charge that picking on the vast majority is equal to racism is insane. The charge that Christianity is under attack is insane. It is everywhere you look, and stronger than ever. What IS under attack is your ability to throw it in my face in our SHARED facilities, like government insitutions. If it's something that belongs, like the government, to you AND me, it must be neutral. When you tell me that neutrality is oppression, then you are in fact oppressing me. Again.

Stop.

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merrywidow033 8 years, 4 months ago

quick comment on my way out the door. sigmund: "Had he pulled a similar stunt to offend or embarrass Muslim's, Jew's, Native American's, or any other groups religious beliefs he would have been forced to resign"

you do realize that creationism is a shared thought among the Jewish AND Islamic faith, right? any Abrahamic religion follows that same belief. the Christian Old Testament is the same Torah that I read.

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b_asinbeer 8 years, 4 months ago

Happy Hannukah everybody! :o) May all the ID classes be taught from a Jewish point of view.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 4 months ago

Correction-- there is no tolerance for intolerant "christians."

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

PS......people have to pay good money to see my thick skin.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

I don't like it when people say Merry Christmas, I am more of a Merry Xmas kind of guy.

Are people so bored in this country that we have to worry about how people great each other during the "Holiday Season". Get a life people. Quit borrowing everybody elses.

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bankboy119 8 years, 4 months ago

So why don't all of the secularists out there become more "thick skinned" and get over the fact that people say Merry Christmas? There is no tolerance for Christianity but everything else is acceptable. It's ridiculous.

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Jane 8 years, 4 months ago

badger, thanks for the tip and your short comment. esad.

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

Uh, I'd be happy to shovel an elderly neighbor's walk. However, being as we only got 1/4 inch of ice last night and I live in an apartment complex full of people under 40, I'm a little at a loss as to how to go about that. I suppose I could go over and say, "Ma'am, as you appear to be somewhat on the other side of 35 from myself, I would like to designate you an honorary elderly neighbor and shovel your walk for you. Oh, I see the apartment complex already put down some salt. Well, uh, do you need to be helped across the street or anything?" I'm pretty sure that would get me punched in the head.

Jane, by the way, you'll probably get a better response asking them, instead of asking us. There's a fairly low percentage of the elderly shutin population that spends its time online browsing webforums. You may even actually have to leave the computer, and your house, and go analog to find them.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 4 months ago

You're a little premature there, kpippen, but given your rush to judgement, why should we expect any different on your "i told ya?"

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tir 8 years, 4 months ago

Oh, yeah, it's definitely a red-letter day for the Religious Right. The headlines proclaim: "Mirecki resigns leadership position" and "Kansas ranks last in science". Surely the Coming of the Kingdom must be at hand.

So what's next, folks? A ritual sacrifice culminating with KU offering up Mirecki's head on a platter? The vultures and jackels are already gathering; the smell of blood is in the air. Gimme that Old Time Religion.

Don't mind me--I'm just a bit frustrated today as I witness the State of Kansas and its flagship university sinking slowly back into the primordial ooze.

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kpippen 8 years, 4 months ago

hate to say 'i told ya so'.... but ....."i told ya so". hoax.

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Jane 8 years, 4 months ago

Good idea macon, i live near 10th and Connecticut, any elderly that need snow shoveled around here?

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KayCee 8 years, 4 months ago

"Andrew Stangl, president of the KU Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics, said he was disappointed that the university had not made a formal statement about the attacks and would be quite disappointed if the chancellor or others were not responding because of cowardice or a desire to see the matter go away."

I doubt it's cowardice or wanting things to go away. The Univ. along with the sheriff's dept. probably doubt the 'aleged beating'. It's got too many 'iffy' statements in the report.

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macon47 8 years, 4 months ago

Except for the looney toons in lawrence, No one really cares about this "ISSUE".. we grabbed some Nationwide media attention for a few days,That's about it.. Everyone knows about who Lawrence thinks are are Or strive to be, but not a lot of people in the USA are glued to the TV to see what the latest crisis in douglas county is. Fact is no one gives a darn but a chosen few. WHY DON'T ALL OF US GO SHOVEL AN ELDERLY NEIGHBORS SIDE WALK INSTEAD OF BLOWING OFF STEAM ON THIS FORUM?

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Souki 8 years, 4 months ago

"He will resign within a week."

If he does, that letter will probably be on stationery from the chancellor's office.

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blue73harley 8 years, 4 months ago

Note to self - put "The Dummies Guide to Polictical Correctness" on list to Santa...err I mean list to Generic Holiday Figure.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

I do believe in being respectful to others.........but at the same time trying to be "PC" in this country is WAY out of control. There has to be some kind of middle ground. People need to take a valium and freakin relax just a little bit. Stay out of everybody elses business. That goes for both sides.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

I think the difference between racial bigotry and noting that fundamentalists aren't using all of their brains should be clear.

Ignorance has a choice.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

average has it figured out. average has had coffee this morning.

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

Will someone please explain to me why we have to be so careful of everyone's feelings?

Whatever happened to being thick skinned?

Call somebody a "Chink" or a "Darkie" and let us know how that works out for you. If they get angry, tell them to be more thick-skinned. I prefer to show people respect, regardless of their background or religious beliefs. Lack of tolerance is why people say Kansas is "as bigoted as you think."

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Robert 8 years, 4 months ago

I hate to say this but KU really should not pressure him to resign. Thanks to KU for letting me down in withdrawing the class.

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Sigmund 8 years, 4 months ago

I find it hard to believe that the Chair of Religious Studies at KU would go out of his way to offend a large number of religious people of any persuasion. Had he pulled a similar stunt to offend or embarrass Muslim's, Jew's, Native American's, or any other groups religious beliefs he would have been forced to resign. There is no reason why Christians should not expect equal treatment from the Department of Religious Studies.

On a broader level, why do we even allow KU to teach Religious Studies? Isn't this getting pretty close to the State of Kansas endorsing or promoting religion? I'm not really comfortable with tax dollars being spent for this. Anyone else share my concerns?

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Ember 8 years, 4 months ago

Will someone please explain to me why we have to be so careful of everyone's feelings?

Whatever happened to being thick skinned?

If fundimentalists don't care for the nickname they have been given, they should either proffer a different nickname for us to use, or just blow it off.

We're not in Pleasantville here, folks. I, personally, make no apologies for my opinions unless they are proven wrong. Personally, I think mocking fundies is fun.

Think of the great puns they can give us.

Fund Raisers: "Fund the Fundies" Bake Sales: Fundie Fudge Comic Strips: Fundie Funnies Religion Fund Drives: Fundie Relief Elderly Fundimentalist: Old Fogey Fundie

The list could be endless. =)

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average 8 years, 4 months ago

I understand tenure and not wanting to move, but after the letter from Chancellor Bob saying the University will not stand up for anyone's freedom, I'd resign the chair and be entertaining job offers from spineful universities. He is certainly a well-enough regarded researcher to land on his feet at a university that won't kick him around.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

I think Chuck Norris will replace him actually! He will be the only one who can fend of all the "Crazy Rednecks" driving around in their "Big Pick Up Trucks"!

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ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 8 years, 4 months ago

I think we all saw this coming. Hopefully he'll be replaced by someone a bit more tolerant of other peoples' religious beliefs. Live and let live, I say. Or, as Chuck Norris once said during a Speed Stick commercial, "The best defense is not to offend." It's okay to have a difference of opinion, but there's no need for hateful speech. That goes for people on the fundamentalist right, as well. Best of luck, Mr. Mirecki.

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Jane 8 years, 4 months ago

Observer, no I'm not using university equiptment to post. I am home today, dead battery and too much snow, too many beginners on the roads. Have a great day.

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

Jane, since you said you work in Strong, hope you aren't using KU eqipment and aren't at work while posting your "Personl opinions" here.

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Jane 8 years, 4 months ago

There is nothing here for him anymore, I think you are right jackmofo.

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jackmofo 8 years, 4 months ago

He will resign within a week.

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

Another shining example of KU administration lacking the guts to stands up to the fundies and right wing legislators.

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Ember 8 years, 4 months ago

Not being a Christian, personally, I saw nothing wrong with Mirecki's comments. He was stating his own personal feelings, which is a right given to him by the Constitution.

Fire him? He should be given a pay raise for calling I.D. exactly what it is. Were I.D. not religious based, would anyone be upset?

I highly doubt it. Nothing in life should be so sacred that it should be above scrutiny and sarcastic comments. Life itself should be joked about.

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

Have you ever heard of freedom of speech? That's what also allows you to mouth off and rant stupidly.

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Shardwurm 8 years, 4 months ago

Not enough. He should be fired.

The left wing would want his head if he had done something similar regarding religion.

So fire him now.

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kitkat 8 years, 4 months ago

Isn't that nice "a group of pastors" became involved and wrote a letter. I wonder if they missed the part in the bible about casting stones. I do not want religion taught in school but I find it inappropriate for religious leaders to circle around and individual in an effort to destroy him.

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Noah 8 years, 4 months ago

The press release on KU's website is accompanied by a pdf image of Dr. Mirecki's resignation letter. It is written on the letterhead of Dean Romzek's office, not Dr. Mirecki's department. ??

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