Archive for Tuesday, December 6, 2005

Mirecki treated after roadside beating

December 6, 2005


Douglas County sheriff's deputies are investigating the reported beating of a Kansas University professor who's gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists and Catholics.

Religious studies professor Paul Mirecki said he was beaten early Monday morning on the side of the road in rural Douglas County by two unidentified men who'd been tailgating him in a large pickup truck. Mirecki said his attackers made references to the controversy that has propelled him into the headlines in recent weeks.

"I didn't know them, but I'm sure they knew me," he said.

Mirecki said in a phone interview that the incident happened as he was "going out for breakfast, taking a drive and thinking about things." He declined to say exactly where it happened, and the sheriff's department did not release the location, except to say it was south of Lawrence.

Mirecki said that when the pickup truck began tailgating him, he stopped his vehicle hoping it would pass. Instead, the men pulled up directly behind him, he said.

Paul Mirecki, chair of the KU religious studies department.

Paul Mirecki, chair of the KU religious studies department.

"They got out, and I made the mistake of getting out," he said.

Mirecki said the beating began almost instantly. The men punched him about the head and shoulders and struck him with a metal object, he said.

About 6:40 a.m., sheriff's deputies were called to Lawrence Memorial Hospital to take a report on the incident. Mirecki was treated at the hospital and released.

"I'm mostly shaken up, and I got some bruises and sore spots," he said.

The sheriff's office is classifying the case as an aggravated battery. On Monday afternoon, the office asked for the public's help finding the suspects. Mirecki described them as two white males between the ages of 30 and 40, one wearing a red visor and wool gloves and both wearing jeans.

Anyone with information is asked to call Crime Stoppers at 843-TIPS or the sheriff's office at 841-0007.

"The information that we have is pretty basic," Lt. Kari Wempe said. "Our investigators are working on it right now."

Mirecki recently wrote online that he planned to teach intelligent design as mythology in an upcoming course. He wrote it would be a "nice slap" in the "big fat face" of fundamentalists.

The remarks caused an uproar, Mirecki apologized, and KU announced last week the class would be canceled. Mirecki also has been criticized for online postings he made about Catholicism dating back to 2003.

As news of Monday's events spread, Mirecki's supporters expressed shock.

"This whole incident is starting to cast doubt that I can actually share my thoughts effectively without someone waiting for me at my car," said Kansas University student Andrew Stangl, president of KU's Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics.

One of Mirecki's most vocal critics, conservative activist John Altevogt, said he couldn't imagine anyone he knows doing such a thing.

"This should be investigated thoroughly, and whoever did this should be punished to the full extent of the law. You don't beat people for either their faith or their lack thereof," he said.

But Altevogt said he was skeptical about whether Mirecki's report was legitimate.

"He (Mirecki) has very little credibility left," Altevogt said. "The one thing that could save his bacon is to become a martyr of sorts, or to elicit sympathy from being the victim rather than the persecutor."

When told that some people were questioning the truth of his report, Mirecki fired back.

"The right wing wants blood, period. They're not going to stop until they see blood. They're not into anything else," he said. "Whatever I do, whatever I say, they don't believe anything because that's the way they are... I know what happened. I got the hell beat out of me. They can say what they want."

KU religious studies professor Tim Miller said he saw Mirecki on Monday and that he looked "scraped up."

- Staff writer Ron Knox and 6News reporter Brooke Wehner contributed information to this article.


Sandman 12 years, 6 months ago

What a soap opera.

To quell the critics who think Mirecki staged this, perhaps he could take a lie detector test?

Jayhawk226 12 years, 6 months ago

I'm starting to think that I didn't move to Kansas and instead ended up in Texas.

I gotta get the heck outta the Bible belt.

cpenning 12 years, 6 months ago

The article says that Mirecki "gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists and Catholics." I am only aware of the one mailling list email that was made public, and I don't remember it saying anything about Catholics (granted, the press has only reported the most inflammatory snippets from that one email.) Has there been anything other than the SOMA email(s)?

sharron5rs 12 years, 6 months ago

Musta been a light beating, cause the people I know that have been beat, have not been able to drive themselves to the hospital.

trinity 12 years, 6 months ago

i'm wondering why a description of the alleged truck hasn't been given? i mean, if somebody is following me, surely you can see in your rearview the make&color of a vehicle, no?

this all just sux really bad...staged, not staged, whatever; it just reeks.

rtwngr 12 years, 6 months ago

It was me and my partner "freethoughtgranolachomp". Except it wasn't a truck it was a VW microbus. We didn't exactly beat him we chanted mantras at him. He laughed, fell down and then started crying. We got scared, got back in the VW, smoked a bong, and then got lost somewhere aroung Lone Star Lake.

ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 12 years, 6 months ago

This type of staged "beating" happened several years ago to a talk show host named Morton Downey Jr. He did it to gain sympathy when he felt the establishment was against him. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

Sounds like all you rightwing wack jobs are getting to display the closest thing you have to tolerance-- schadenfreude.

crono 12 years, 6 months ago

Several things here don't seem to add up to me:

  1. If a pickup truck was driving behind you in the early morning in a deserted rural area, and two men got out holding a large metal object, and you were still in your car, would you get out to go talk with them?

  2. Where was he going to have breakfast south of Lawrence at 6 AM?

  3. How did those in the pickup truck find him? Were they waiting at his house? In that case Dr. Mirecki should have noticed them right away. How would they just randomly find him in the middle of the country?

  4. As has been mentioned above, why no more precise description of the vehicle? Kansas law requires license plates on the front of the vehicle; from where Dr. Mirecki was standing, it seems this should have been plainly visible to him. Wouldn't he have noted that when the altercation clearly was to become violent (or after it became violent)?

  5. A beating for one minute? Just about the head and shoulders? As has been mentioned above, not much of a beating as far as beatings go.

  6. It has been reported that they made remarks about the recent controversy. What exactly did they say?

  7. Dr. Mirecki's description of the perpetrators: "two white males between the ages of 30 and 40, one wearing a red visor and wool gloves and both wearing jeans". That could be nearly anybody.

I don't mean to be insensitive to Dr. Mirecki. No one deserve to be beaten, and if he was beaten for his remarks, that is a despicable evil. But the lack of detail and consistency in this story really leaves me wondering whether Dr. Mirecki's account is fabricated.

cavtrooper 12 years, 6 months ago

Reminds me of another professor (not at KU) who claimed her car was vandalized by "right wing Bush supporters" after she made some inflamatory comments prior to the last election. (I thought they were fairly mild, but hey..) Turned out this pillar of the community trashed her car herself and filed a false police report. Something smells, but if he was assulted as he claims I hope the perps get the full extent of the law. Somehow I don't think they will get caught.....

kansasboy 12 years, 6 months ago

HAHAHAHAHAHA. I think the beating was just a BIG MYTH!

KayCee 12 years, 6 months ago

To all the common people this report 'smelled' the first we heard it. If they find the 'two', I'll admit there are a few 'nuts' in this world who do these things, but I'm not holding my breath. Crono posted a list of good questions and comments.

Steve Mechels 12 years, 6 months ago

Cronon wrote "Kansas law requires license plates on the front of the vehicle..."

Not sure where you are from but no it doesn't.

If Mirecki did fabricate this, I am sure the SO will figure it out. Unfortunately, if the beating did occur, it wouldn't surprise me. A state full of close-minded individuals that doesn't allow academic freedom is sure to have some even more extreme individuals (e.g., Fred Phelps) that would do something like this.

crono 12 years, 6 months ago

You're right, it is the back of vehicles, not the front... my bad. Still suspicious to me that he didn't notice the plate as it was driving away, then, though.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 6 months ago

Just like ID, the conspiracy theories that Mirecki did this to himself are simply wishful thinking on the part of right-wing fundamentalists.

Grundoon Luna 12 years, 6 months ago

Sounds like Jeff County vigilate justice to me. anyone remeber Wild Bill the cabbie. this was in 1981, Bill dabled in herbs and white truckers (sold at Raney's, the stuff was actually Haysthme). Consequently , his wife didn't like the folks hanging around or living here and talked him in to moving near Oskie. His siste-in-law lived with them and was selling acid at the high school. Though she was getting it from elsewhere, and unbeknownst to him, the locals blamed Bill. The Jeff County goon squad hired his cab near the Lawrence Opera House (now Liberty Hall) and took him out near Wells Overlook where, acccording to Sherrif Rex Johnson, he was "accidentally" run over multiple times. Watch your back Prof. I suggest getting a team of Pastafarians in full pirate regalia to accompany you wherever you go. i know you regard no diety, but I will pray to the Goddess and the God for your safety. Let mw know if you feel you need a protetion spell. I'd be happy to oblige.

ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 12 years, 6 months ago

"Dr. Mirecki has a doctorate from Harvard in Theology, published multiple books and articles" ========== Wow, that's very impressive. With that much intellect, you'd think he would have been smart enough to get a license plate number.

jranderson 12 years, 6 months ago

Does anyone else see how silly all of this is? Maybe it's not silly anymore if someone was actually hurt. At first I thought "I can't believe this." Then I thought, "No, wait, I can." THEN I read the comments and couldn't believe people were STILL fighting over it. After this! And how insensitive we all are.

Jill Flessing 12 years, 6 months ago

I really like the "myth of the redneck".... ha!

but please... who the HELL would stage a beating? of any kind? And most men I know WOULD get out of their car... I mean, he may be a professor but in fear, that testostorone thing kicks in!!!!!

I have a couple questions... at 6:30.. is it still DARK??

most of the professors I know tend to be WAY behind the times.... did he HAVE a cell phone???? perhaps not!

I think there is a lot of crap flinging going on here... if you were stopped and approached by two men... who on EARTH knows what you would have done IN THE MOMENT!

I'm sure there will be more info to come on this!

I"m not much of a Christian, but please - judge not - lest... you get the point.

ksmattfish 12 years, 6 months ago

"Maybe it's not silly anymore if someone was actually hurt."

But he was an enemy of the Christian right, so it is funny, and appropriate behavior. The laws that were broken were merely laws of goverment, not the laws of God. He's lucky he wasn't stoned to death. Possibly this experience will make him see that his blasphemous freedom of speech will not be tolerated under the Lord.

1) Ban books (except The Book). 2) Dilute the quality of education for the youth. 3) Beat up the intellectuals.

Ahh yes, the plan is coming together nicely....

pepper_bar 12 years, 6 months ago

i hear the cops filed the professor's statement under: Mirecki's Beating and Other Mythologies.

dirkleisure 12 years, 6 months ago

What a fool! He didn't look up from his beating to get a license plate number! And the full details of his attack aren't being published in a news story!

You think maybe the full details are in the hands of the authorities and not in the hands of Brooke Wehner? Did you consider that for even a second?

Besides, isn't just the BELIEF he was attacked enough? You don't have to actually have a WITNESS or DOCUMENTED FACTS in order for something to be true. It's called Intelligent Design.

"I have a lot of questions after reading this story, so it must not be true." You're a stay at home schmuck who posts way too much on the local paper's website.

Leave the investigating to the authorities; go back to making inane comments about "science" and watching the 700 Club.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

Obviously, it is clear that it was dumb to get out of his car the way he did. Even he agrees with that. But, remember: at 6:40 it's danged DARK out. I can see why he didn't get a good description. Also, he didn't get into a fight. He was attacked. There is a big difference between those concepts. When you are on the ground, trying to avoid the blows, you aren't asking the guy "are you six feet tall, or closer to 5'10?... hold still while I get a good look at your tatoos... is your truck a Chevy or a GMC?..."

By the way, if I'm up at 6:00 a.m. on the south side of town, I'm heading RIGHT for First Watch (there must be a number of good resaurants open at 6 a.m., Crono). You people act like this is SOOOOO suspicious. Man, some of these posts make Lawrence look like we are a bunch of morons.

Also, please quit calling these attackers fundamentalist. The fundamentals of Christianity says to NOT do this kind of thing. We sing a song at church called 10,000 Angels that talks about how if Jesus had wanted to, he could have called 10,000 angels to save him from suffering on the cross, but instead chose to die. Spiritually minded people understand that God does not need us to fight (literally) his battles on the playground with the class bully. If God as issues with Mireki, God is big enough to handle it without me or anyone else swinging a pipe at his head on a country road.

My opinion: God protected Mireki on that road. Two guys, a metal pipe... he shouldn't be walking and talking right now.

These bozos who attacked him are just misguided sickos who are so dumb they have probably already been caught. PLEASE do not call them fundamental Christians. They threw out the fundamentals when they came up with this plan.

enochville 12 years, 6 months ago

I condemn the assault on Dr. Mirecki. Just as we ask moderate Muslims to condemn the use of violence by radical Muslims, I as a moderate Christian condemn the use of violence by radical Christians, if that is even what they were.

muffaletta 12 years, 6 months ago

Crono should totally be a investigator -- good work man. Sarcasm.

This seems like perfect behavior from the Christian right to me.

avhjmlk 12 years, 6 months ago

Yes, at 6:30 am it is still dark enough for a truck make, perpetrator facial characteristiscs (and considering how butt-freezing cold it was this morning, maybe they were wearing those all-the-way-over-the-face stocking cap things--I would have been if I was going to go kick someone's butt outside in rural DgCo), and license plate to be difficult to make out.

I mean, really. If you were whalloped over the head after you visited First Watch (don't know if that's where breakfast was, but it's on the south side of town, and on the way to heading out farther south, say to the Wetlands, to have a drive/walk to clear your head--Mirecki's not the only person on the face of the earth to feel the need for a head-clearing brisk walk in the midst of personal turmoil), would you really have the forethought to catch a license plate? What's to say that they didn't BACK UP, then pull a 3-point handbook turn, and drive off the other direction?

And, whoever said that he probably didn't have a cell phone (or at least have it with him) might be exactly right. I would much rather attempt to drive myself to the hospital with a brain-ringing headache and a busted up face than wait in the cold for some random person to drive by. Besides, would YOU wait for them to come back and beat the crap out of you again, or would you try to get away.

As for getting out of his car, maybe he thought the drivers wanted to tell him his rear lights were out. Maybe he hoped it was someone who knew him who happened to run across him on the road.

Do you find it THAT hard to believe that a whacko who would beat him up wouldn't also tail him from his house, or whatever. Sheesh. I watch CSI. Maybe they stuck a GPS beeper on the bottom of his car after they bought it at the local radio shack.

Let's let the authorities figure it out. None of us were there.

avhjmlk 12 years, 6 months ago

OldEnuf--maybe we should meet at First Watch sometime. We totally had the same thought. (It just took me a long time to type my response, so I didn't see you mention First Watch before I did.)

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

Wow. There's a whole lotta hatin' going on.

You know, I wonder if the 'fake!' finger-pointers would find it easier to accept the idea that he was beaten if it weren't for the fact that the sort of people who would beat someone up in a situation like this are kind of likely to think they're doing their god's work.

The license plate thing's been covered, so I'll make a few other points. I haven't ever been beaten up, but I have been in an accident where the person got out, looked to make sure I was OK, and then drove off. Not only did I not get a license number, I couldn't even describe the car or the driver who'd looked me in the face for a full ten seconds and spoke to me, because I had a concussion and I was shaken up - from the headrest hitting my head just once, for far less than 'about a minute'. I couldn't remember what color or gender the person who hit me was. I then drove myself to the ER, got a wrap for my sprained wrist and some instructions for my concussion, and was 'treated and released.' The ER doc, as was his protocol, called the police to report an injury related to a crime, so the police came and I filed a police report. In light of this, Mirecki's actions and those of the hospital and ER seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Ask a police detective, and he'll tell you what rotten eyewitnesses average people make. They remember things like, "He was average height," and forget things like, "He was wearing white greasepaint with a red smile painted on, he had big shoes, and I think he smelled like french fries."

You know, if CNN picks this up as an aside to their recent article about the class, it will get spun all out of recognition and Kansas will become the place where people who oppose Creationism get beat up by rednecks at the side of the road.

Noemon 12 years, 6 months ago

I dismiss the idea the Mirecki fabricated the beating. I know him, to some degree, having taken a number of classes from him over the years, and having socialized with him a tiny bit. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing he'd do.

Furthermore, I don't see that he has all that much to gain from doing such a thing. Altevogt asserts that doing so would "save his bacon". Save his bacon from what? He's a tenured professor. He isn't likely to have to go looking for a new job over this.

I agree that the story seems a little off, but I suspect that has more to do with not all of the facts making it into the article than anything else. As the story develops I think that it will all make more sense.

I do question whether the attack actually had to do with the recent controversy though. It may have, and there may very well be details that didn't make it into the story that make it clear that that was the case. If so, I'm sure (well, okay, I hope) those will be made public in future coverage of this incident. As it's reported, though, it seems just as likely that the driver of the truck felt like Mirecki had cut him off or something, and decided to pound him for it. That's happened to me more than once, although I wasn't foolish enough to pull over and let them do it.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

First Watch is the Pachamama's of breakfast, baby!

One of the best things about eating at breakfast places is the quality of the cooks and servers. Druggie slackers do not go to ANY job at 5:00 a.m. Good service, skilled cooks.

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

But staff...

I thought the ASS was the sign of the Democrat? Are you saying you suspect the Liberal Menace?


By the way, not only is First Watch over on the south side of town, so is IHOP if you're in the mood for that instead, though First Watch is LOTS better. Plenty-odd places to get yourself some breakfast in the wee hours.

BDub 12 years, 6 months ago

Who in the world would stage their own beating over something like this? The idea is ridiculous. Does he really gain anything by it? Not in my opinion - and certainly not enough to get a beating for.

Regarding suspicion because the news story doesn't contain enough details... We only know what the story tells us. We don't know everything that he told the police.

These people who beat him certainly don't understand what Christ was about, so I hope they weren't pretending to defend Christian values. Pea-brained morons at best, and I hope they serve time in jail.

Even the very conservative who despised Mirecki's comments (I'm not conservative and I didn't like them much either) should be angry that this would happen in our state. Violence such as this is never justifiable, and it's awful that it's happened here. I find it appalling that people on this board are looking for excuses or claiming it couldn't have happened.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

"These bozos who attacked him are just misguided sickos who are so dumb they have probably already been caught."

Hey, Oldenuf, we bozos have a bad enough reputation without getting blamed for this. We may have big red, honkin' noses, be it's a known fact we don't drive big pickups trucks, although some of us drive really tiny ones, mostly in parades.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

My apologies to the Clown Anti-Defamation League.

Please, whatever you do, don't sic Jesse Jackson on me!

CitizenX: Normally, I get really upset with statements like "fundies are VIOLENT", but I'm not going to rip you for that. The truth is, some people cannot manage having their beliefs attacked or scrutinized. Where you have religion, you will always have a fringe of nut-jobs who lose perspective (if they every "had" perspective) and they attack college profs on deserted roads or they make a shoe bomb and try to blow up a plane or they mix poison into a vat of Cool Aid and tell their followers to drink it up... "Faith" is not a flawed concept, but it does sometimes attract unstable people who are looking for answers, but not looking for "God". Those are the kinds of folks who commit these kinds of crimes.

You know how I know these perps are mentally incompetent? A hobbit with a bad knee could beat up a religion professor on a dark road. TWO of these guys with a metal pipe went after him, and he walks away from the attack with "scrapes". Truly, these guys are lame on multiple levels.

If all "fundies" are violent, then these guys are losing whatever street cred they thought they had (or, would that be "church cred"?). Membership in Violent Fundies of Douglas County Club... REVOKED!

oxandale 12 years, 6 months ago

Well, at the hour he was beaten up, it would be difficult to see the make/mode of any vehcile. Kansas actually doenst requrei having a plate on the front on the vehicle. As for the eatings to the head/neck/shoulders, any one can receive a whole range pf damage to anywhere that is being beatn. Doesnt really matter where he weas beaten or how long he was beaten, in the grand scheme of things, he was beaten. He is fortunate he wasnt seriously hurt. But, being beaten primarily to the face area (versus being beaten mostly on the back/legas, etc) advertises to the outside world taht he has been assaulted. And being who he is, it isnt difficult to connect the dots that he may have been assaulted for his vocal opinions.

erichaar 12 years, 6 months ago

Today's Kansas City Star Metro section, front page: "Kansas Professor Reports Attack, car forced off road before beating"

"Forced off road"?

Cati 12 years, 6 months ago

The following should be how the story was reported by Press....


Two armed terrorists affiliated with the bigoted "Redneck" movement in the Midwestern "bible belt" of the United States, assaulted an esteemed university professor for having religious beliefs that were different from those held by the Christian fundamentalist right wing, Monday morning, authorities report.

Mirecki has been under fire from the fundamentalist right wing for having an open mind and using his experience and education to form opinions of his own regarding Christian systems of belief.

This case seriously brings into question as to whether religious freedom and freedom of speech is still a right in the United States. It also points to the dangerous conclusion that Christian terrorists are adopting Islamic Terrorist tactics against fellow American citizens..."

take that, you!

crono 12 years, 6 months ago

I can understand that it was dark, and therefore Dr. Mirecki may not have been able to get details about the attackers of the vehicles.

But if we're blaming darkness for that... then we also have to acknowledge that darkness would have affected the attackers as well. It seems to me, then, that one of two scenarios is possible:

  1. THE ATTACKERS PLANNED AHEAD OF TIME: These attackers were staked out outside Dr. Mirecki's house all night. When they saw him leave, they followed him until he was in the countryside and ambushed him.

I see problems with this scenario. Wouldn't Dr. Mirecki have noticed he was being followed? And would he really have gotten out of his car to face people who had been following him from his house all the way out into the country? And, if they went to all the trouble of staking out his house, why just pound him around the head and shoulders a few times and then leave? A thoroughly planned attack would likely have involved a more violent assault.

  1. THE ENCOUNTER WITH THE ATTACKERS WAS BY CHANCE: A couple of people, angry about Dr. Mirecki's comments, were riding around in a pickup truck out in the country on Monday morning. They come up behind a car. They recognize it as Dr. Mirecki's car. Just happening to have a metal object conveniently available, they decide to tailgate him and get him to pull over, and then proceed to beat him up and leave.

This scenario seems more plausible, but also has problems. Namely, it rests on the attackers recognizing Dr. Mirecki's car... certainly possible that they knew this, but also not at all common knowledge. Remember, IT WAS DARK... and they approached from the rear... therefore they could not have recognized Dr. Mirecki himself, but must have identified him via his vehicle.

I'm not saying either of these scenarios is impossible. I'm not saying an attack on Dr. Mirecki was justified; on the contrary, such attackers should have the book thrown at them. All I'm saying is that the details don't add up to me, as they have been explicated in the UDK and the LJW thus far. I'm not trying to be incendiary... these are honest questions, and if they have honest answers, that is great and I hope they will come to light.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

Good point, Cati. This attack may be an isolated incident, but let's face it, nearly every religion in the world has some history of violence in it's past. The Inquisition. The ENTIRE history of Mormonism. The recent Islamic terror actions. There is nothing that says that a misguided Christian would make different choices from that of a misguided Muslim. Nutcase means nutcase even if you append "Christian" or "Athiest" on the end of it. And, if you get a few of them together, you then have a "movement" of those nutcases, which in today's global environment, could easily lead to organized terrorism on the part of the [fill in name of any group here].

bondmen 12 years, 6 months ago

What's the political operation called when one creates a situation where an apparent wrong is committed and damage inflicted with the goal to create an appearance of attack by your enemy thus casting aspersions on your opponent? The colonists dressed as Indians when throwing tea overboard to protest taxation without representation; Hitler burned the Reichstag and blamed his targeted political opponents; Clinton used Waco and Oklahoma City to castigate and berate his opposition. Of course the angry professor's incident pales in comparison to these historic events but it remains; this is a very effective countermeasure to create a false political backlash and generate sympathy to save a cushy university job which is in jeopardy.

In viewing the reactions from some posters it's clear this tactic can inflame one's targeted population group otherwise known as campus brownshirts. Is there no end to how far the hate in some anti-Christians bigots will carry them in their zeal to crush their religious opponents?

craigers 12 years, 6 months ago

I hope these suspects get caught. Is this debate really worth beating people up over. I mean I have strong feelings but I would never beat somebody for them. If I was ambushed I would try to defend my self but never be on the offensive. Chances are these people will get caught and then they will say God told them to do it. These people are doing a complete disservice to God. They are just idiots looking for a reason to beat somebody up.

I hope Mirecki gets well soon.

mikwitie 12 years, 6 months ago

Religious fanatics are all the same no matter who their god is. Their agenda is to push their "BELIEFS" on the whole world and they will resort to any and all methods. Mirecki was probably sick of listening to the BS and said some things he shouldn't have. I'm sure John hasn't ever done anything like that. As for the credibility I think the shoe fits on Mr Altevogt. Teaching faith based beliefs to all children in Kansas just doesn't make sense.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

Just wondering, Crono, is it possible that you question Mireki's story because you disagree with his position on ID?

dirkleisure 12 years, 6 months ago

crono - commercial break on 700 Club?

All of your questions will be answered by law enforcement, not by reporters for the local paper, and certainly not by a reporter for the university's student paper.

Give it a rest. Now, back to Pat. I'm sure he's calling for more beatings. I must remember to lock my door tonight, don't want you and your Pat Robertson clones coming after me with a steel pipe.

Shardwurm 12 years, 6 months ago

Good stuff everyone!

Beating or not he's a fool.

mefirst 12 years, 6 months ago

Who is this Altevogt guy? He has no credibility...this crime should be fully investigated and it's a shame, but by the way, I believe Mireki staged the whole thing to be a martyr. You can't have it both ways Altevogt. Why not come out and say what you really mean? You have no sensitity toward what happened to Mireki.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

What a reach, Crono. So... a couple of rednecks who were out at 6 a.m. had enough time on their hands that when they luckly came upon a man they coincidentally and mutually hated, and had a pipe on hand, were able to notice, in the dark, that is was Mirecki, and without even discussing it prior, decided to attack him.

Dude, if I'm in my car at 6 a.m., I'm going turkey hunting, and I don't have time for beating up college professors.

You are demonstrating what a lot of these people are posting: that some are so sensitive (read: insecure) about their beliefs that they do (or post) things that are irrational in order to feel better about themselves. What is wrong about admitting that two pseudo-Christians probably beat up someone who they found threatening? If that's what happened, it's not a bad reflection on MY faith, is it?

Sarah Mathews 12 years, 6 months ago

C'mon you guys... It's so obvious- anyone who believes in evolution is a big, fat, liar with a penchant for beating themselves up. It's in The Book.

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

Gee, PorkRibs, perhaps he didn't see 'Two yokels in a pickup truck.'

Perhaps he simply saw two fellow Kansans, who have over and over touted their compassionate nature, who claim to be reasonable, rational, and logical, and assumed that even if the ensuing discussion were heated, it wouldn't necessarily resort to violence.

Perhaps he hesitated to prejudge another human being simply based on appearance and vehicle, and wasn't inclined to assume that it was a couple of yokels out to administer a butt-kicking.

And to all of you "OMG it must be fake because they HAD TO either stake out his house and he HAD to have noticed that or it was totally random and HOW did they recognize his car?" folks: Nowhere in the article does it say whether or not he'd already eaten said breakfast. You're going off half-cocked on partial information (how often is that going to be said here today, in some form, before it sinks in?) in a newspaper story.

The third scenario is this: Most breakfast restaurants around here, notably First Watch and IHOP, have separate sections where you could see someone who wouldn't really notice you, especially as he is entering or leaving. If the restaurant is at all crowded, there'd be no reason for two guys to really stand out. It's perfectly plausible that he was having his breakfast, two people who find him objectionable saw him, he left, they followed, mayhem ensued.

Again, it's all zebras for some people. Yes, it's perfectly technically possible for him to have faked the attack. There's no evidence that he did, though, and there is evidence that he actually was injured. Yes, there are a lot of questions the newspaper doesn't answer. That's kind of a newspaper's MO, though. They print enough detail to get people tizzied so they'll buy tomorrow's paper.

I think it's a cheap shot on Altevogt's part to dismiss it as an attempt to 'save his bacon', and I think that if the perpetrators are caught (and I certainly hope they are), he's going to look pretty stupid for implying that Mirecki faked the assault. I think, actually, that there are some people who just have certain things in their heads and that no matter what anyone says, they're going to twist it into somehow, some way, Mirecki setting this up and doing it on purpose.

b_asinbeer 12 years, 6 months ago

Wow...I didn't know the republicans (not just the extreme ones) writing on this board and all across the state of Kansas had this much hate built up inside....I suggest 8 years of intensive therapy and lots of prayer for your soul to be saved....Good luck guys. Let me know how it went at the end of that 8th year.

bondmen 12 years, 6 months ago

Anybody here willing to take bets on how long it'll be before the Douglas County P.D. files charges against the anti-Christian religion department head prof. who beat himself up (or had a black leathered kinky boy toy work him over) for making up charges and filing a false police report?

Or do some of you brainy campus brats believe there is no such thing as a 'false' report? Afterall, if it's true for you then that's all that matters - right?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

Actually, the reactions of those who are accusing Mirecki of faking this are quite understandable. All they have to do is ask themselves what they would do if they were in his position. Of course, it doesn't occur to them that Mirecki is not like them.

har_de_har_har 12 years, 6 months ago

Ze French judge awards ze mesewer porkbut ze 9.9 for ze blind rage and ze 10.0 for ze naked hate. Zis puts porkbut az ze current leader for ze Cheese zat smells like ze Feet Award. Zut!

Sarah Mathews 12 years, 6 months ago

Yes, I am more inclined to believe a person who gets medical treatment after an apparent attack, than some dude claiming a "black leathered kinky boy toy" was hired. If that makes me a "brainy campus brat", so be it.

PoeticHeteroSapien 12 years, 6 months ago

OldEnuf - your points are well considered and full of wisdom. You're exactly right-- two rednecks in a truck who share Altevogt's long-standing disgust for Mirecki and anyone like him decided to take matters into their own hand and rough him up so he will stop feeling so free to express opinions they don't like.

What does that have to do with Christianity? Nothing. It's as against Christianity as the people who say that hippie war protesters are evil enemies of the USA, forgetting that Jesus said "blessed are the meek in spirit" and "blessed are the peacemakers."

Loonies are loonies no matter what group they belong to, and being a fundy doesn't make you a loon. It's just that most loons out there happen to be a fundy of some type. Yes, there are also atheist fundies, if they have some other ideology to enshrine as a faith, like Stalinism. It's a story repeated a million times over, in every religion and place.

"In viewing the reactions from some posters it's clear this tactic can inflame one's targeted population group otherwise known as campus brownshirts. Is there no end to how far the hate in some anti-Christians bigots will carry them in their zeal to crush their religious opponents?" - bondmen <<<

I sure hope by "Brownshirts" you mean the anti-alliance forces in the movie Serenity... because if you're calling us SA Nazi Brownshirts in a roundabout way, you're a serious jerk. What can you possibly mean by "is there no end?"

Mirecki is reported as having a broken tooth and having bruises from being struck by a heavy object, possibly metal. Are you seriously saying that we, the one atheist/agnostic group on campus, decided to inflame people against the FORTY Christian student groups on campus?

And for you people who have never been beaten up (as I did, being a heathen growing up in the deep south, many times), I challenge you to identify two rednecks in twilight hours after being ponded to near-unconsciousness, and remember it hours later for a report to police. Good grief, the amount of Monday-morning quarterbacking here is amazing.

So, no, OldEnuf, it has no reflection on your faith or even on Christian fundamentalism. I'll call out those who say so right now as wrong. I know lots of Christian fundamentalists who take that whole "Jesus called us to be men of peace" thing very seriously... it's a shame this militant Christian movement has so recently made us all forget that most Christians are peaceful people at heart and by philosophy. I just wish your voices were the loud ones right now.

Peace and understanding be with you all, faith or no.

princess 12 years, 6 months ago

Alas, the reputation of the great state of Kansas takes yet another beating before the eyes of the entire nation.

This is just sad all around.

b_asinbeer 12 years, 6 months ago

PorkRibs is a terrorist...let me phone the KBI and the FBI...that should take care of all of our problems.

fossilhunter 12 years, 6 months ago

So, Porkribs, Mirecki intelligently designed his own beating?!

jessehattabaugh 12 years, 6 months ago

On behalf of the state of Arkansas let me extend our thanks for this and the rest of the ID debacle in your state. You see our state doesn't rank favorably in studies of poverty, education, bigotry, or violent crime. However, Louisiana always keeps us out of last place in poverty, Mississippi makes us look like Rhodes Schollars, and Kentucky has more incest (at least we like to think so). We can always count on our nieghbors to look worse than we do... well other than that whole thing with desegregation and the national guard being called in and everything, but everybody's forgotten about that... right?

So we are all happy to see the great states of Oklahoma, and Kansas so vehemently supporting outdated superstitions even to the point of violence. By comparison, we all look like progressives, even though half our counties are stuck in prohibition. So again, thank you Kansans. We are as happy to stand next to you as a moderately attractive girl is happy to stand next to a fat chick.

LarryFarma 12 years, 6 months ago

From post by Sandman on December 6, 2005 at 5:44 a.m.

To quell the critics who think Mirecki staged this, perhaps he could take a lie detector test? ---

In one of the Dirty Harry movies, a crook pays someone to beat him up in order to falsely charge Dirty Harry with police brutality. When Dirty Harry sees a picture of the guy's injuries, he denies the charge by saying, "I would have done a better job."

This attack -- if real -- was not only very wrong, it was just plain stupid. It transformed a laughingstock into a martyr. The attack undid -- and then some -- all the good work of the people who exposed Mirecki's bigotry.

princess 12 years, 6 months ago

Oh good gravy people, Arkansas is thanking us. We have hit a new low indeed! :)

Redneckgal 12 years, 6 months ago

Something sounds strange here to me. I think maybe this fellow is trying to stir up a little attention?

midwesterner 12 years, 6 months ago

well if it was dark then the details would be sketchy because visibilty would be poor to say the least...and there could always be factors that we the people are unaware of....also for those of you who ever wondered why people dont report cases of violation or abuse...well maybe they think you'll assume they made it up. pretending to be beaten up, and having bruises to show it is pretty difficult to accomplish.

midwesterner 12 years, 6 months ago

ksmattfish i hope your joking cause i dont think any faith would find that accpetable.

Mr_Christopher 12 years, 6 months ago

Not only do some people this he did this to himself, they think intelligent design is science.

A scary world we live in....

tir 12 years, 6 months ago

Some of the comments on this board literally make me sick. Professor Mirecki is the victim of a violent crime, and a lot of you are acting like he is the criminal, or saying that he deserved it. No matter what Mirecki wrote on the KUSOMA listserve, he did not deserve to be beaten up for it. Nor does he deserve to have people accusing him (and in some posts apparently trying and convicting him) of faking his own beating. That is just horrible and disgusting and wrong. In the name of justice and fairness and human decency, at the very LEAST you ought to give the man the benefit of the doubt and reserve judgement until the investigation is completed and the facts of the case are out.

Personally, I believe him, and I hope his attackers are soon behind bars where they belong.

PoeticHeteroSapien 12 years, 6 months ago

He had a tooth cracked out. He is on pain killers right now.

I don't think that's the kind of "attention" a person wants to stir up. If he had wanted to stir up attention as a martyr, he could have driven his car carefully into the ditch and said someone ran him off the road. Or he could have reported a confrontation that he fled from successfully.

But he doesn't want attention. He has tenure-- what he wants is LESS attention, to go back to his nice cushy job. This just puts him back under the microscope and lets everybody (who hates atheists or anyone else who challenges Christianity) speculate about his integrity.

No, I think if you suggest that this is fake, you need to take a step back and question your own motives, not his.

Mari Aubuchon 12 years, 6 months ago

I am truly disturbed some of the reactions to this crime,which range from justification to outright denial. If this was, indeed, an act of vengeance for Mirecki's statements, then we face an even greater need to change the present climate of our nation than has been obvious in the last few years.

We are continually bombarded by media coverage of the "War On Christmas" and the "Culture Wars". We are also repeatedly told by certain religious and political leaders that the great natural disasters we have seen in the last twelve months are God's retribution for sin and lack of "true" religious belief. Add to this the continual branding of criticisms of the current administration or the war in Iraq as an unAmerican activity and we have the recipe for violent civil strife.

I have had enough of war.

Chocoholic 12 years, 6 months ago

I wish you a speedy recovery, Prof. Mirecki. Peace and blessings to you.


(That's supposed to be a flower for you.)

pepper_bar 12 years, 6 months ago

if Mirecki wanted to make his comments against Christianity anonymously, he could have done so.

He clearly sought fame and notoriety, and used his professorial credentials as a means to gain credibility among the anti-Chrisitian community.

trinity 12 years, 6 months ago

sure wish people would stop using the word "redneck" as if it's a horrible thing. i identify often as a redneck; it's a conscious choice to live in an undersophisticated manner! :) i love everything from opera to ballet to classic movies to atv's to demo derbies to great literature...period.

whatever the circumstances and case surrounding this alleged beating by these alleged bad guys-it is just a stinkin' sucky shame. kansas is truly turning in to a joke! and that is what saddens me the most.

PoeticHeteroSapien 12 years, 6 months ago

Pepper - what does that have to do with anything? He's the faculty sponsor for the student group SOMA. Of course he talked with us under his own name... we all do it. We all joke like that. What exactly are you suggesting? That because he is a professor, he shouldn't feel as free to joke about whatever he wants within the group? You're crazy if you think that.

The only reason this is an issue is because people out there think that it's okay when Pat Robertson says atheists and sinners caused a hurricane to kill people... but "hate" when Mirecki uses the word fundies and laughs about how the fundamentalists are going to get pissed off at his new course, designed to piss them off by its very nature. Oh, and he picked on the pope, backslid believers, and the idea of transubstantiation.

I don't see how those comments are "against Christianity" in the slightest. Please justify your statement, because you're not making much sense to those of us who stop to think about it rationally.

pepper_bar 12 years, 6 months ago

poetic: i find your position absurd on all counts and won't waste my time arguing with you about it. congrats, you win.

The_Voice_of_Reason 12 years, 6 months ago

To the right wing Christian conservative wacos who beat up Dr. Mirecki: Stop trying to push religion onto people! It says in the Bible to go out and spread the word of God, not to beat it into them. Stop trying to take away a guys right to exercise his freedom of speech. You're making all of the normal open minded free thinking Christians look like idiots!

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

To those of you saying he's just seeking notoriety and publicity:

Hmmm, let's see. He's published and respected in his field. He's recognized as an authority in his area of study. He's a tenured professor at a large state university, given the freedom (within certain apparent political restrictions) to develop coursework and work with student groups as he chooses. The story of the class and its cancellation has already hit CNN and other major news sources, days ago. The nation is well aware of what's going on in Kansas. Backwater burgs around the nation breathe sighs of relief every time a Kansas Christian Right Conservative opens his mouth, because they feel kind of enlightened, the more our blowhards blow.

So, of course, he's going to stage an attack and have himself physically injured to risk that tenured position, all because he really really wants his picture in the LJWorld some more. I see.

Is this the part ID proponents keep talking about, where you believe something with no credible proof and insist that others participate in that belief with you despite an absence of meaningful data, and create speculative fiction to justify believing what you do but call it 'reason' or 'science' instead of admitting you just believe it because it makes you happy to do so?

I seem to have drunk the wrong Kool-Aid this morning, because I just can't see that light, Brother Jones.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 6 months ago

It's really sad. If Mirecki had been a Christian advocating "intelligent design" and gotten beaten, the aggressors mentioning he was a "fundy freak" there would have been a search party by now. Police would be putting up road blocks and the whole nation would be up in arms. A sad world we live in when only white republican straight males are entitled to freedom and justice, NOT TO MENTION there wouldn't be any close minded supposed "Christians" saying he did it to himself! Kansas makes me sick, I'm utterly and completely ashamed to say I come from this festering cesspool from hell. You all make me sick. You are making a mockery of our justice system. We are truly the ones left behind in the war on civil liberties. This country would be better off without religion shoving it's head up our governments backside. It's time for the Christian Community to not only condemn those actions against Mirecki but to apologize for how they have treated him and portrayed him in the media. I only ask for the same thing that they would/ and do demand but what they would be able to get because they always whine untill they get their way. And people wonder why people call Americans stupid......

Crispian Paul 12 years, 6 months ago

Kansas Law does NOT require front license plates.....try doing a little research before posting something simply because it supports your point of view, Crono.

If this did occur, how very Christian of the attackers...

OldEnuf2BYurDad 12 years, 6 months ago

Red visor. Like I said: incompetents. They don't even know how to dress like ignorant rednecks.

Well, this is my last post of the day. It seems that 98% of the english vocabulary has been used in this thread and there are reports of shortages taking place in Canadian gradeschools. Poor little tykes can only say "take off" until they can replenish their supplies. So, I'm conserving my words.

Crispian Paul 12 years, 6 months ago

I take issue with many of the comments here regarding if this did in fact occur....a good number of these comments state that he was "stupid" for getting out of the car, not getting a license plate number, so on and so forth. It is this very type of attitude that perpetuates a "blaming the victim" approach in our society. What was he doing out at 6 am? Why was he in the country? These remind me of the types of questions rape and sexual assault victims face when dealing with law enforcement and public oppinion. Does it matter what he was doing at 6 am? Does it matter where he was headed to breakfast at? Does it matter if he didn't get a license plate number? Do any of these things mean that this incident, if it did occur, was his own fault? I know many sexual assault victims and domestic violence victims through my work and life and nearly every single one of them has faced a similar line of questioning. The implication of this is "it's your own damn fault" if you're "stupid" enough to allow yourself to be assaulted....I would like you victim blamers to be assaulted and find out just how much you remember in terms of details such as clothing or license plate numbers.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 6 months ago

nice kpippen, because leaving is really the American way isn't it! I thought we were supposed to be a melting pot and promote welcoming people into our country? So is the new slogan, "Welcome to Christian America, Agnostics take the first exit please." I think not. Grow up. This is situation pisses me off.

Shardwurm 12 years, 6 months ago

"Alas, the reputation of the great state of Kansas takes yet another beating before the eyes of the entire nation."

Who cares? And who cares what Arkansas thinks?

Sheesh people, try gathering your self esteem from something other than the assinine performances of a few dozen people from our State.

Either that or move to Missouri. You'll like it there.

staff04 12 years, 6 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Crispian Paul 12 years, 6 months ago

A post was made that perhaps Mirecki could have made his comments anonymously and since he did not, was clearly seeking notoriety. Perhaps. Or perhaps he is not a coward who is unwilling to take credit for his comments and beliefs...

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

Dear prospector:

I don't know that this was a racial issue, meriting a KKK reference.

Those of you who receive our discrimination for non-racial purposes like spirituality would like to politely request that you please stop monopolizing all the discrimination and hatred as racial issues. We non-Christians are finding ourselves sadly underrepresented at the tradeshows and DiscrimiNation seminars. Not to mention that last week, someone confiscated my secret decoder ring and told me I can't come to the meetings any more unless I collect some bona fide discrimination.

There is enough for everyone to share if we all work together.

Most Cordial Regards, Badger

staff04 12 years, 6 months ago

Redux: I would like to announce the results of the qualifier I announced for today's board in my 9:53am post. In short form: plumberscrack sharron5rs trinity rtwngr ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie blue73harley cavtrooper kansasboy KayCee The_Original_Bob-sorry Bob, but I clearly stated the rule... pepper_bar dirkleisure redneckgal topeka kpippen bondmen, with two particularly ignorant posts was almost the big winner, but.....

drum roll please....

In second place, ladies and gentlemen, we have, with three of the more defensive, paranoid, and above all, asinine posts...crono!!!!

And, the moment we've all been waiting for....

The winner, and undisputed champion of the redux, is PorkRibs, whose asininity is only rivaled by his callous!!!

Congratulations to all who played!

Oh, I did want to mention a couple of others, who made different lists...Oldenough2byourdad: you started off the day on the ASS list with your first post, but your subsequent posts showed a well thought out, formulaic understanding of why you aren't like those who DID make the list. I hope you aren't disappointed.

Also, I would like to thank bozo, badger, and wendt for keeping things light while making sure that those on the list know what foolishness they were espousing. Thank you all for playing. I hope to see you all again soon!

princess 12 years, 6 months ago


Let's try to stick the subject rather than dodging it by telling people to like it or leave it. It really is childish and although I do not know you, I would like to assume that it is also beneath you.

staff04 12 years, 6 months ago

Oh yeah, and Shardwurm, they aren't going to leave just because you told them to, just like they aren't converting just because you told them to. Unfortunately for you, that isn't how the world works. When you realize that, I believe you will truly find peace.

bkt_1977 12 years, 6 months ago

"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!"

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: / Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

"Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better. The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself."

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

"Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

Please stop to consider that Christianity (as well as other religions), the laws of this country, and the laws of science all hold that without comprehensive information, no reasonable judgment can be made.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 6 months ago

You're right bkt_1977 ....unfortunately for the large majority of Christians "reason" doesn't exist. They simply spout off what their preachers tell them too which is usually parallel with what people like Pat Robertson think. I don't have a problem with Christianity, I have a problem with some of it's interpreters. Christianity isn't being questioned, we question how it's FOLLOWERS interpret and misinterpret, and have been for thousands of years right from the point of translating it on paper, the holy scripture. I know there are good Christians out there, where are you all? Surely you must see how bad your religion is looking right now because of what people are doing "in the name of God."

pepper_bar 12 years, 6 months ago

i do wish Mirecki all the best in the healing process, and i hope that this whole ugliness lies in everyone's past in the very near future.

badger 12 years, 6 months ago


Where are they? Look more closely at this board. I direct you to the following:

"Posted by enochville (anonymous) on December 6, 2005 at 9:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I condemn the assault on Dr. Mirecki. Just as we ask moderate Muslims to condemn the use of violence by radical Muslims, I as a moderate Christian condemn the use of violence by radical Christians, if that is even what they were."

And also to the following:

"Posted by craigers (anonymous) on December 6, 2005 at 11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I hope these suspects get caught. Is this debate really worth beating people up over. I mean I have strong feelings but I would never beat somebody for them. If I was ambushed I would try to defend my self but never be on the offensive. Chances are these people will get caught and then they will say God told them to do it. These people are doing a complete disservice to God. They are just idiots looking for a reason to beat somebody up.

I hope Mirecki gets well soon."

Craigers and enochville have been highly vocal about their beliefs on this forum. They have represented themselves as devout Christians. Their responses, as people who have made themselves very well-known as examples of their faith, constitute what it is my impression the reaction of a person who truly 'gets' the teachings of Christ really should be.

badger 12 years, 6 months ago

Dear prospector:

Well, thanks for nothing. I had planned to use your refusal to validate my need for an equal share of the discrimination as the necessary act of discrimination I needed to get my decoder ring back.

Now, in light of your apology, I'm going to have to stalk Right-Wing Conservative chat rooms with the user name 'HappyMcWiccanPants' and wait for them to start calling me names.

Most Cordially, Badger McWiccanPants

donsalsbury 12 years, 6 months ago

I'm just wondering whether Silence_Dogood had evolution or creation in mind when he/she said:

"I have to try to encourage them [students] to see things from multiple perspectives, and to constantly question the dominant ideologies that construct us as humans."

Because I believe this was the whole point of the BOE debate to begin with. Here's hoping that's the case....

( )

bthom37 12 years, 6 months ago

Religion of peace strikes again?

Burn baby burn!

badger 12 years, 6 months ago


That was YOU!

I thought your post cadence seemed familiar...

ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 12 years, 6 months ago

From a Morton Downey Jr. bio:

"In 1989, as fascination with Morton Downey Jr's show had begun to wane, he was involved in an incident in a San Francisco International Airport restroom in which he claimed to have been attacked by neo-Nazis who painted a swastika on his face and attempted to shave his head. The failure of the police to find evidence supporting his story, let many to suspect that the incident was a hoax and a plea for attention."

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

I hope they catch his attackers, but I suspect there won't be any arrests made. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that Mirecki's story sounds fishy. Let's see, he's an "educated" guy who gets tailgated by hill-jacks in a pickup truck, then decides it's a good idea to confront them in a rural area with no witnesses. When he steps out of his car, he finds himself face to face with weapon-wielding fundies. Doesn't this sound a bit strange to anyone? Am I the only one who isn't falling for this hook, line and sinker?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

Sounds to me like you have totally internalized way too many teevee plots, ascot n dickie.

midwesterner 12 years, 6 months ago

i agree with tir it's like saying a girl deserves to be raped who wears a short skirt or low cut one ever deserves to be assaulted and no one deserves to be punished for having controversial views...this is all just so ridiculous and i can't believe i'm seeing some of this being said...aren't we supposed be civilized and modern???

bkt_1977 12 years, 6 months ago

I find it interesting (and pathetic) that this thread degenerated so quickly into finger pointing. The individuals who posted hateful, illogical, judgmental rants are exactly that: individuals. They are not representative of any particular group, even if a majority of them may have a certain religious affiliation, or be of a specific political persuasion. It is sad, really, how many people lack critical thinking skills. I am not convinced that any particular belief is the "right" one, but I am certain of this: If we do not seek to better ourselves and to tolerate those who live, speak, and believe differently, then we can never claim to be "right". Is it too much to ask that the speculation & blame cease? Perhaps a legitimate discussion might ensue.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 6 months ago

Do you want me to start listing all the assault and batteries that weren't faked over the last 30 or 40 years, topeka? I would guess that a few thousand posts on this thread ought to handle it. That'd really prove something, wouldn't it?

staff04 12 years, 6 months ago

Ascot- Per my post at You have plenty of company.

PoeticHeteroSapien 12 years, 6 months ago

It's a common tactic, Just_another.

An unpopular girl I knew in highschool was sexually assaulted by a couple of football players... and the first thing everyone said was that she faked it, and suddenly everyone started telling stories of girls they knew who had faked sexual assault reports.

Forget the fact that she went to the hospital over it and was traumatized. She had to have faked it-- she was unpopular and wanted attention, they said! That was the only thing most of the students in my school wanted to believe.

Those of us who were her friends got to watch her go through/relive the trauma of the assault for years afterward, but the part that really hurt her the most was that everyone was so quick to believe she had lied about something so heinous just to get attention.

Dr. Mirecki's TOOTH is broken. If someone suggested to my face that he had faked this, I'd probably try to punch them in the face hard enough to break their tooth and ask them (quietly and calmly) if they still felt he had done that to himself just for attention.

badger 12 years, 6 months ago


You're right. I agree absolutely. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows the story is fishy.

However, anyone with more than an ounce of sense doesn't make snap judgments about the actions and motivations of people they've never met based on a thousand-word-or-so newspaper article and too much conspiracy TV (do they have a Conspiracy Channel, and no one's told me about it?).

An ounce of sense puts you right at about the brain-class of 'Intellectual Featherweight.' Lucky for you, there's plenty of company in that class, and you'll never run short of people to battle wits with; this is good because both parties run out of ammunition so quickly.

ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 12 years, 6 months ago

staff04, naturally I'm shaking in my boots and very scared about being "on your list". Perhaps I'll stage my own beating, chipped tooth and all, to make it look like I was attacked by one of my fellow liberals who took issue with the fact that I dared to question Mirecki's story. After all, here in the the United States we are expected to be good citizens by doing what we're told and not ask questions.

Mike Ford 12 years, 6 months ago

I have to laugh. Not at what happened to Dr. Mirecki, but at all of the chest-beating going on here. This kind of action isn't new. It happened to the Jewish People of Spain in the 1400's. It happened to Galileo in an arguement over scientific doctrine that contradicted the popular religious views of that day. It happened to the Wampanoag People and Pequot People in the name of religion. I was brought up in a Christian home. I'm not a Christian, and I'm a good person regardless.

The fact that this violent act occurred is indictitive of how organized religion is used as a judgement tool both racially and socially.

All one has to do is listen to "Killing in the Name of" by Rage Against the Machine, to see one side of this equasion. This society has become facist in it's intolerence of anything beyond a given norm. The reason ID is villified so much is that it's a tool of the fascists to push their views upon others. Personally, these ID supporters ought to be forced to see that they're not the "Victims". We're simply not going to take their bullying anymore. I don't say this as a part of any religious movement. I say this as a tolerent person.

JS 12 years, 6 months ago

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." - Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux

To those who question the authencity of Mirecki's account I have a couple of questions and a comment:

The questions first. Why do you think that people might be receptive to the idea that the beating (and I'm virtually positive that it did happen) had more rather than less to do with the fact that he'd been in the centre of a heated controversy over blasphemous comment made against religious fundamentalists?

Could it have something to do with the fact that islamofascists have been using the same tactics for years now, and that most dispassionate observers view Christian Reconstructionism (of which ID is a pawn) as little or no different from radical islamism? Try googling 'Salman Rushdie', 'JyllandsPosten death threats cartoons', and 'Lenny Flank reconstructionist Ahmanson'.

And the last question: Could the fact that fundamentalists have threatened the academic freedom of the KU and resorted to threats of illegitimate interference with the running of the university in direct violation of every code of civilised behavior have something to do with the readyness to jump to the aforementioned conclusions? The willingness to respect academic freedom has historically been a very accurate measure of a group's willingness to follow the other basic rules of civilisation.

And now for the comment: Being beaten is scary. The shock can very well take longer to heal than the physical wounds. Because what you don't know is just how much of a psycopath the goon beating you really is, and there's squat all you can do to prevent him from bashing your head in if he decides to go the whole nine meters.

After the fact you don't consider securing evidence. You don't take licence plates or call the police immediately or any of the dozen or so other things that sound so reasonable after the fact. What you do is put as much distance between you and the assailant as humanly possible.

It's a spinal-reflex reaction that we've probably inherited from waay back on the evolutionary tree, and in a natural environment it actually makes sense, because if the fecal matter is so deep that you're not even landing a single blow on whatever you're up against, then bugging out as fast as you can without wasting time and energy on anything else provides a rather marked advantage when it comes to survival. And most savannahs aren't big in police stations anyway...

lunacydetector 12 years, 6 months ago

...all i can say is...morton downey jr. for those too young to remember him, he was a loud mouth TV talk show host who died a few years ago.

after his show was cancelled, in order to get publicity, he attacked himself with lipstick and a wall in an airport restroom claiming it was done by a group of Nazi's. upon further examination, it was determined the swastika was drawn on his forehead backwards, and since there was hate writing on the bathroom mirror - he later confessed that he did it to himself.

...why would someone stop in the middle of nowhere for a tailgating truck, and why would someone stop during the darkest time of the day (darkest before dawn), and why would someone get out of their car under these circumstances? it just doesn't sound very 'intelligent.'

MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

I know, maybe it was a Mr. Red (a member of the Federalist Society) who beat the agnostic theologian on the road with the lead pipe? Maybe even Sam Alito????

My reasoning:

All of the Founders believed in ID and most all of our foundational political documents are predicated upon ID. "Providence" those ignorant knaves called the infinite personal who guided creation and placed Law in the hearts of men (make that "people" for those who need me to say that to keep reading).

Thus it only makes sense that a follower of the Founders, aka a Federalist, took the metal to the professor (mildly, thank God!)

Leaving sacracism behind, I must ask: Are we (I should say you), by rejecting ID as laughable at best, rejecting the core of the creed that defined our culture? Are we burying the past? Are we too sophisicated to carrry on the legacy?

YES WE ARE. Brave New World dawning in America. Stay tuned for details. (See past 30 years for prologue).

And buckle your seat belts, for cultural collapses can get bumpy. Very bumpy. See Germany circa 1930. See France circa 1790.

I see a bad moon on the rise.

And, again, anyone else willing to consider the possibility the good religion prof may have taken a cue from that great cinematic event called Fight Club? Remember how the almost termination was turned into a fine separtion package? Or is that simply off the table given the good prof's popularity and liberal sheen? Why, the favored elites would never deceive us, would they? No, only if they were Christians!

Fairstudent 12 years, 6 months ago

I support Mirecki and even his e-mail comments, the only place ID has in a modern University is a class that exposes it for what it is, mumbo-jumbo. What ever happened to the seperation of church and state? Clearly religion and politics have been mixed together, and the student suffers.

Charles L. Bloss, Jr. 12 years, 6 months ago

No one deserves to be beaten for what they say in America. That being said, people do need to think about possible reactions to what they say or do. When I was growing up in the 50's & 60's this sort of thing happened, but it was usually a fist fight, and that was it. Today shooting off your mouth can get you killed. Flipping the bird to someone who cuts you off in traffic, can get you killed. The other day a guy pulled right out in front of us on K-10. We were going the speed limit of 65 mph, we had to slam on our brakes to avoid hitting him. I was angry so I cussed the guy out, in my car with the windows up. When we stopped at a traffic light later, this guy was angry at me. He was cussing, making all kinds of motions, etc. I will never understand it. The guy was angry at us when he almost caused an injury accident. He would have most likely been the one killed, too. I could have gotten shot by cussing at this guy, when he was way in the wrong. Mirecki brought on what happened to him. He let his opinions be very well known, and it came back to bite him in the ass. You have to think before you make statements like Mirecki did, or cuss at a guy like I did, and consider the possible consequences. We were both lucky we weren't killed. What happened to him was wrong, but his mouth brought it on. Thank you, Lynn

MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

Dr. Mireki, Please release the medical records and the police report to the LJW reporters. (The few who can stand to be politically incorrect should the facts mandate it.). You, good doctor, can put an end to the wild conjecture here and now and ensure that this rabid questioning of your character is stopped, at least as to whether you really were beaten with a metal object and fists by two bible thumping (and atheist thumping) rednecks. I implore you, by whatever deity you revere, or, in the alternative, by the ancient rocks of the Royal Gorge, to do the right thing and release the hidden records of your beating.

Godot 12 years, 6 months ago

MadAnthony, you took the alphabet out of my post, particularly with regards to Fight Club.

My KU alum son and I were seated in the outdoor section of Salty Iguana this past summer when he came for a visit. He lives and works far south of here, in a big city. When his gaze caught a "Kansas, as bigotted as you think," bumper sticker he said, "What the F**k? Do you have any idea what it is like down south? To even have something like that on your car would be saying, "Hey, come beat me up!"

I wonder what bumper stickers Mirkecki sports on his car?

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Christianity is about love. If someone does not get it they should try to learn it. Most blokes here are under the influence of satan, whose main objective is to beget more haters as in this crackpot blog. To hate under the name of GOD is the worst form on sin that a man can commit (read the Bible if you can and you will find out, if you cannot read, it is ok. Just love.) Learn to love not hate. Hate the sin not the sinner. If this is all too much for the hateful, venom spewing crackpots, tell me, we christians will pray for you. As of now, you are practicing satanism. Forgive them oh lord, for they know not what they are doing.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Jesus, my master said "Love thy neighbor." Certainly some of his alleged followers do not follow this. Instead they are hate filled bigots and thugs. They are no more christian than satan is god! Shame on all the people who cannot love and instead spread hate. DISGUSTING indeed. Sympathies to Mirecki fellow whoever he is. God bless all including the hate filled bigots.

Godot 12 years, 6 months ago

MadAnthony, again, good post. Dr. Mirecki has privacy rights under HIPAA. He would have had to have given LMH permission to release his information in order for LMH to even have confirmed that he was a patient there, let alone to discuss his condition. Unless, of course, the LJW's information came from Mirecki, himself. Good call.

The next question is, what role does Stangl play in this episode? He is certainly prominent in LJW's coverage over the past few days.

Godot 12 years, 6 months ago

To Observer, I am quoting my KU grad, atheist, son's response to a bumper sticker that, according to his understanding of today's urban culture, is asking for a fight.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

If someone's KU grad son is saying it. The father must teach him something better. There is something called first amendment. Also tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. Making stupid statements is not a good idea as Mirecki is finding out. If you do not like someone's opinion does not mean you should beat him up. Also, US constitution does not give license to be a thug. So peole can have whatever bumper stickers they can have and not expected to be beat up.

GreenEyedBlues 12 years, 6 months ago

This event was just another example of intelligent design at work.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Evolution advocates also need to realise that the theory is not fool proof. Just as the religious bigots are mad so are the scientists who are fanatical about their theory. But nobody in their right mind (I see few here) should think they can go around beating guys who do not subscribe to their view. The evolution theory does not explain well several mechanims at the cellular level. Seen at that level it does indicate a certain amount of directed evolution. So either side to think that they are right and the other side is wrong shows a certain amount of arrogance, intolerance and ignorance. On the other hand, self aggrandizement in GOD's name is perhaps the worst sin. That will fetch you a good deal of time in HELL. SO beware.

Try to get some education in religion and science. The kind of arrogance and intolerance on both sides is a disgrace. STO being school kids. GROW UP!!!!

har_de_har_har 12 years, 6 months ago

If I should live to be 100 years old, I could never produce all the bile in my spleen that I would want to vent on the toweringly arrogant amateur detectives that have been posting on this thread today. Just because you can act out every episode of CSI with sock puppets doesn't make you an authority on investigations. What you are reading in the news media is almost certainly NOT the whole story. This case is still evolving. Everybody has both an anal aperture and an opinion. Sounds to me like the two have been getting mixed up on this board. Maybe the spleen doesn't actually produce bile, I don't know & don't have time to look it up right now.

PoeticHeteroSapien 12 years, 6 months ago

You do know that the medical records related to this assault are part of the investigation and will of course be available to the police on that basis, right?

And Andrew Stangl is the student president of SOMA. His role in this should be obvious-- study for finals.

Geezus, you people need to get out of your basements and take a walk in the real world for a while.

And yes, I'm from the deep south-- you would get beat up for your bumper stickers. That's why I live in Lawrence, and proudly display a "Kansas: As bigoted as you think" sticker on my Civic.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Idiots who cannot read and write post here. Not all, but many. These bigots have respect for neither science nor christ, my savior. These wingnuts have neither evolved nor have been intelligently designed. ON the one hand we have scientific "evolution" fascists and on the other we have these religious fanatics. Terrible combination we have. I suggest you all take a break and give youeself a break. Jesus said "love thy neighbor" most of you canot lov youself, hence your deprivation. The scientists are arrogant and egotistic and cease to be followers of science because of this. I think al these asses should be thrown in some planet to quarrel among themselves. GOD what a combination. Wingnut fascists and science jokers!!!GET LOST and disappear!!

GreenEyedBlues 12 years, 6 months ago

"GET LOST and disappear"? Using God's name in vain? If you're truly of one of God's children, you'd stop mudslinging and demonstrate the compassion to which you are called.

MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

Let's just all set at the feet of lindssucks and be enlightened.

On what basis does an atheist and evolutionist say that what happened to the good doc was "wrong." Looks alot like survival of the fittest to me. Is it "wrong" for one grizzly bear beats the hell out of another to establish territory? Shouldn't atheists take their vodka straight up and give up on such Shakespearian concepts as "right" and "wrong?" Let's be consistent you darn eggheads. If there is no God, everything, even bitch slapping a Harvard grad, is permissible. Get a metaphysic that allows value judgments or sit down and shut up.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Compassion will be shown, not by me but by the lord, upon repentence. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The so-called Buddhist karma plays its role. I urge people to respect one another and not hate each other. I urge compassion for fellow beings. For this to happen one should do some introspection and repent. Repent, Repent. This not easy and will not come from going to church on a sunday and forget god on other days nor does this come from confessing to a priest, who sexually abuses children on weekends. Repentence to one's lord within and compassion to beings small and big brings salvation one is told. But seeing wingnuts here makes one wonder how this is all possible. But it is... even these creatures upon repentence will be forgiven. GOD is so great as that...

sweatpeagj 12 years, 6 months ago

Why is everyone assuming that they followed him from his house? Could they have possibly seen him eating his breakfast at one of the above mentioned eating establishements? Decided that they didn't like the comments that he posted and covered extensively by the media ( and been run into the ground by the same people posting on this site) and wanted to teach him a lesson? I know that a lot of people carry some form of protection in their vehicles because well you just never know what might happen. Why is everything always a conspiracy theory? This really isn't CSI or any other made up television series. Real life is made up of dumb people doing dumb things on a daily basis. Since you have posted on LJW website you must have read other incredubly stupid things countless times. If this man was attacked it is a sad statement for the state of Kansas. Yet again. It does sound like there are questions that need answers but who are we to be the ones to try to answer them. Does that mean if one of you honorable posters got beat up and didn't have all the answers to the very questions that are being asked here does that make your attack any less real? Think before you judge who knows who all reads what is written here and could be offended. The anonimity you perceive you have here isn't all that sacred or hard to figure out if someone really wanted to. I don't have an opinion wether this is true or not only, the victim, the police, the hospital, and the perpatrators can say it is or isn't. If the hospital called the police upon treating this person wouldn't they have found some evidence of battery? I am sorry to all those who said he should have gotten beaten worse in order for it to be believable. Do you think that if they did do this maybe they also thought about teaching a lesson and then getting the heck out so nobody saw them? Sunrise wasn't far off when this attack allegedly happened. Just wondering..

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Evolution at celullar level definitely seems directed evolution. The theory of evolution has big gaps in it. This does not mean that the wingnuts are right. What I am saying is for men and women of science to be followers of science in its true spirit. They ae behaving exactly as their fanatic opponents. Some amount of humility should be good for both sides. Coming back to the evolution debate, it might be a good idea to be a little humble and admit that there are certain subtle things that the present theory of evolution does not answer at the cellular level for instance. Science need not contradict religion at all. Only brazenly arrogant scientists say this. As the great Einsteing said "Religion without science is blind and science without religion is lame." Even though some causes at a cellular level can be traced to chemical processes, it is a complete mystery why a specific process, among billions of possible ones, takes place at a given time is a completel mystery. To a neutral observer, without a bias, it seems as though the evolution is directed at this level. Certainly ther is more mystery than science can answer. As far as haters and wingnuts are concerned, they need to learn tolerance and compassion. GOD help them.

Calliope877 12 years, 6 months ago

Posted by b_asinbeer (anonymous) on December 6, 2005 at 12:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"PorkRibs is a terrorist...let me phone the KBI and the FBI...that should take care of all of our problems."

I used to work at the KBI. They grow some good weed in the basement....they have to keep up with all the new breeds out on the streets these days, you know....I just thought I'd throw that in.

MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

Help me out here, master. Am I a hater or a wingnut? How can I tell, or must you make the Pronouncement? How can I aspire to your level of syncretistic enlightenment, Obi won lindnobi? And what is your term of unendearment for non-believers? No sure I see one in your loving and compassionate posts? Just scientists (like you, I your undergrad yet?) and arrogant scientists. Hmmmmm. Are you a Raelian or Scientologist by any chance?

Grundoon Luna 12 years, 6 months ago

Lindssucks, you sound incrediby biased. Have you not been reading about these events? Abrahms stating that you CANNOT belive in evolution and the bible? Or the science teacher at Vertias stating that it's hard to reconcile the first 3 chapters of genesis with evolution. You are just as bad that those you call "wingnuts." My brother is a geochemist/geocronologist and has dated object to be millions and millions of years old. Yet he is a devout catholic. these things aren't difficult to reconcile for a lot of scientists and just because they defend evolution and want to expose ID for what it is - NOT SCIENCE BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION - doesn't make them all athiests/agnostic. They just aren't letting blind faith dictate what they know better.

MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

Azure, you really should advise your brother to not date those significantly older than himself, it seldon works out. AND I doubt that your brother's catholicism cuts any bait for lindssucks.

It retrospect I was too hard on Obi won Lindnobi. (And for that i apologize, sincerely.) He/She at least gives a stab at trying to reason with terminology, evidence and interpretation. Some are so indoctrinated they simply cannot get past bumber sticker thought on evolution "vs" ID "vs" the biblical texts.

Azure, how about my more metaphysical posts. Make any sense to you, a convinced evolutionists who evidently finds ID absurd.

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

I did not damn science at all, azure attitude. All I am saying is that it is good to keep an open mind. Science cals for it. To negate evolution is being a wingnut. Mad anthony, if subscribe to the nagation of evolution, then u are a wingnut. Otherwise you are a cool dude. I am a scientologist, in fact Tom Cruise calls me everday and asks about the state of evolution of Mad anthony!! He is very keen on you progress. It now seems like you have been intelligently designed and I will tell Tom that. Perhaps you should join us at scientology convention. We would love to see someone as intelligently designed as you are. YOu are sheer designer material.. maybe they should clone you so that we have many intelligently designed mad anthony's.. PEACE!!

lindssucks 12 years, 6 months ago

Apologies gratefully accepted Mad anthony. I still think you are a cool dude. I will tell TOM that!! :---)


MadAnthony 12 years, 6 months ago

Lindssucks, You have found the path to my heart by massaging my massive ego. Tell Tom I will join as soon as I get over my irrational fear of volcanoes.

Having now been forgiven for allowing my fingers to grow to sharp, I am "cleared" to hit the hay.

Maybe tomorrow.........and good night to the good doctor. I do hope he is well, and hope he will release all of the records as to this unfortunate event so that all of us inquiring minds can find rest. ;)

Evil_Dr_P 12 years, 6 months ago

This is the Evil_Dr_P, ya know, I'm such a twit. After I got beat up by the fundies, I calmly drove to the hospital and was realeased after 3 hours (2.5 hours spent filling out paper work and answering questions).

The deputies learned of the attack by coming to the hospital. I guess I was so badly injured, it didn't occur to me to use my cell phone and call the cops and get them chasing the fundies as soon as possible. I thought I'd drive to the hospital first since it was too hard to dial 911. It didn't occur to me to stay at the crime scene and wait for the police or an ambulance. No siree sir...I'm such a twit.

I should have been hopping mad that the fundies beat the hell out of me, and should have gotten the cops on their tail ASAP. I guess all my Harvard education knocked me clean of common sense. For some reason I wanted to give the criminals a couple of hours to flee the crime scene.

You know, when it's only about 10 degrees farenheit at 6 am, I'm really eager to step out of my warm car and meet some billy bob's that are tailgaiting me. I don't know why I do the dumbest things. I mean, my body was telling me I should just leave the window up and stay in my car and let those guys just walk right up and say their peace.

You know, the other dumb thing is these guys were tail gaiting me. I slowed down, they didn't try to pass. I sped up they still tailgaited me. They showed they had benevolent intentions when they're only a few feet from your rear bumper at 65 mph. This slowing down, shifting of lanes, and speeding up, goes on for about two minutes. Well, I start thinking to myself, "these guys must really like me! I've just got to stop and pull over and say howdy."

And you know, I reported to the student paper my injuries like my chipped tooth and that I was released from the hospital after 3 hours.....I won't answer all those calls by the reporters made to the cell phone (which I should have used to call 911 after I got the hell beat out of me).

I remember as they were beating me up, they were screaming at me about the course on creationism. I tried to tell them to lighten up, that I did more to further the fundy cause by my stupid actions than anything they could ever do. They agreed, and stopped the beating, and that's what saved me from being beaten to a pulp. I got out of it just being a bit "scraped up".

They asked if I could wait on calling the cops till they got good and far from the crime scene. I said, "no problem, I'll go to the hospital first and let the police know that way. That'll give you at least a couple hours. How does that sound?"

Evil_Dr_P 12 years, 6 months ago

You know, I just realized those Fundies were pretty bright. How in the world did they realize they could ambush me by tailgaiting me.

They must have ran me through a Meyer-Briggs psychological profile and said, "Shazam: according to the way Mirecki thinks, all we have to do is tailgate him, and he'll pull over and walk out and meet us".

Tell you what, these fundies had predicted my behavior down to a science. They knew all they had to do was tailgate me, I'd pull over, they'd step out, and I'd come out and say howdy even in 10 degree weather, even after they were aggressively tailgaiting me for 2 minutes.

They had me figured out. Gee, I don't think I give these guys enough credit.

DuQuesne 12 years, 6 months ago

Jeez, Prof. Them rednecks musta ruffed you up purty good - they done knocked loose yer F7 key. -Schuyler DuQuesne

bigjim 12 years, 6 months ago

Evil Dr P., interesting post. I too wondered why you pulled over and got out to talk with the guys that were tailgaiting you. You got out even before they got out. Weird. Who would do that? Road rage is common and I certainly wouldn't jump out by myself and look for a fight. You could have at least waited for a safe place to pull over where others might be around to help or be witnesses. Not too smart for a professor. I'm eager to see how your whole debacle turns out.

bigjim 12 years, 6 months ago

I did a search on Google news for Mirecki and found the following site.

"A Kansas University professor was hospitalized after religious fanatics who disagreed with his position on Intelligent Design attacked him...

Boycott Kansas! Kansas has decided that it's cute and amusing to attack gay people and their families. As long as they maintain this attitude, I'm boycotting Kansas. I invite you to join me."

Are they saying Mirecki is gay? Maybe that's why he got out of his car to meet those two guys.

bigjim 12 years, 6 months ago

By the way, I didn't in any way intend for that last post to be a slam on gays. I'm just trying to figure out what really happened and why.

Citizen 12 years, 6 months ago

Lindssucks said: "Idiots who cannot read and write post here...:

I just thought I'd point that out.

JS 12 years, 6 months ago

"All of the Founders believed in ID and most all of our foundational political documents are predicated upon ID."


"And buckle your seat belts, for cultural collapses can get bumpy. Very bumpy. See Germany circa 1930. See France circa 1790.",,2-1798944,00.html

You should Google 'Godwin's Law' too.

Oh, and one more thing: I though all the creationists were lying in their teeth when they said the debate over ID was about science not politics, religion and culture. Thanks for proving me right. Care to testify so before the Supreme Court if and when the Dover Dolts or the Kansas Kooks appeal?

"I see a bad moon on the rise."

So do I. A mushroom-could-shaped bad moon. Have done ever since that unmigitated idiot dubya did his little end-run around what passes for a democratic process on your side of the Pond.

"And, again, anyone else willing to consider the possibility the good religion prof may have taken a cue from that great cinematic event called Fight Club?"

I've considered that. But what has happened here dovetails too neatly with what we have seen from other religiofascist groups over the years. I have an exercise for the readers: Compare and contrast the Mirecki beating, the events leading up to it, and the 'debate' following it with the ditto regarding the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. And if nobody replies, I'm gonna take a page out of Lenny Flank's book and repeat the question until I get an answer or you run away.

"No one deserves to be beaten for what they say in America. That being said, people do need to think about possible reactions to what they say or do."

No, what you need to do is put these fascists behind bars and throw away the key. Preferably the traitors George 'Weapons of Mass Deception' Bush, Dick 'Torture is OK' Cheney, Paul 'Screw The UN' Wolfowitz, Rupert 'Noise Machine' Murdoch, and Carl 'Scooter Libby' Rove can accompany them. I'd say Pat(wa) Robertson too, but he really belongs in a mental instution, not a prison.

"Dr. Mireki, Please release the medical records and the police report to the LJW reporters."

Med records contain sensitive information which are no business of yours, and publishing police reports before the fascists are caught wouldn't exactly be a three-digit-IQ thing to do, would it now?

JS 12 years, 6 months ago

"Christianity is about love."

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." - Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux

"Evolution advocates also need to realise that the theory is not fool proof."

They do. But so far there has been no substantiative challenge to it. In fact, there's not even been an attempt. What there has been is a string of lies, political games, more lies, PR stunts, and yet more lies. IDC is empty. Scientifically and otherwise.

"Just as the religious bigots are mad so are the scientists who are fanatical about their theory."

Very few are.

Science is, however, carried out in scientific, peer-reviewed journals, not high-school textbooks.

ID has published a lot of the latter and absolutely nothing in the former.

Thus, ID isn't science. The scientists are simply pointing that fact out. They aren't being 'fanatical' or 'close-minded.' They are being professional and honest.

"The evolution theory does not explain well several mechanims at the cellular level."

True. Currently. But that's subject to change.

"Seen at that level it does indicate a certain amount of directed evolution."

Wrong. That's an argument from ignorance. There is not positive evidence for ID.

"The kind of arrogance and intolerance on both sides is a disgrace."

'Both sides' my foot. So far the intolerance and arrogance has been unilaterally on part of Dumbski, Ahmanson, Lyin' Luskin, et al.

I suggest you read the Dover trial transcripts.

"ON the one hand we have scientific "evolution" fascists [...] The scientists are arrogant and egotistic and cease to be followers of science because of this."

Where? Point out one, bitte. Surely, since you use plural, that shouldn't be too hard.

"On what basis does an atheist and evolutionist say that what happened to the good doc was "wrong." Looks alot like survival of the fittest to me."

That comment is - as Pauli is famously quoted remarking - 'not even wrong.'

Claim CA002 at the Index of Creationist Claims.

JS 12 years, 6 months ago

"Get a metaphysic that allows value judgments or sit down and shut up."

Get a grip, and read some Voltaire. When you have gained a little actual culture or some measure of civilisation (and I mean the real thing, not the sorry excuse that passes for it in the US) we can talk. Until then, you'll never rise above the level of a flamebaiting troll.

"Some amount of humility should be good for both sides."

I know of very few scientists who do not possess humility. Watching neutron stars collide in galaxies a million light years away does give you a really wonderful sense of perspective.

What scientists do not have is any patience for stupid, political hacks who want to tell them how to do their jobs despite having less than three percent of their credentials and half that fraction of their IQ.

"it might be a good idea to be a little humble and admit that there are certain subtle things that the present theory of evolution does not answer at the cellular level for instance."

It might also be a good idea to realise that this is an argument from ignorance.

"Science need not contradict religion at all."

In fact it cannot contradict religion at all. Because religon deals with the supernatural and science deals with the natural. The two areas do not overlap. The problem is that some religious yahoos don't get that and want to play politburo commissars.

"To a neutral observer, without a bias, it seems as though the evolution is directed at this level."

To a neutral observer without bias, it seems that evolution is poorly understood at that level. Directed evolution isn't science, it's theology.

"Certainly ther is more mystery than science can answer."

Indeed. But at least we, unlike religion, don't simply forfeit.

"Posted by Evil_Dr_P (anonymous) on December 7, 2005 at 1:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This is the Evil_Dr_P, ya know, I'm such a twit."

Posing as someone else is poor netiquette.

  • JS

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