Two Kansas University students went on FoxNews' nationally televised "The O'Reilly Factor" Thursday night to defend KU professor Dennis Dailey's human sexuality class.
But host Bill O'Reilly refused to buy the arguments of the students, Rick Sullivan and Jen Hein, that the class didn't show pornography. And O'Reilly criticized Dailey for not judging pedophilia as wrong and for showing films of handicapped people having sex.
"Look, you guys, I appreciate you coming on. But I have to say, anybody listening to this conversation, they're going to be shaking their heads here," O'Reilly said after interviewing the two students.
"Because it looks to me like this professor has a sexual problem of his own that he's imposing on you, under the guise of all this highfalutin discussion. You can learn about these things in many different ways."
O'Reilly said he was particularly concerned about Dailey's views on pedophilia.
"If this man is saying he can't make a judgment about adults having sex with children he doesn't deserve to be on the University of Kansas campus."
Sullivan was able to inject one final retort to that statement.
"I believe he judges the behavior and not the person," Sullivan said.
"Well, that's fine," O'Reilly said, thanking the students for being on his show.
"We'll keep the nation informed about what the governor of Kansas is going to do here."
O'Reilly had Sullivan and Hein on his show as a follow-up to his Tuesday show, which featured state Sen. Susan Wagle, R-Wichita, and Jessica Zahn, a student intern for Wagle who was enrolled in the human sexuality class this semester.
On Tuesday's show, Wagle and Zahn said Dailey showed pornographic films and the vaginas of young girls in his class, titled "Human Sexuality in Everyday Life."
Wagle has tried to shut the class down by getting a bill approved by the Legislature to defund KU's School of Social Welfare if such a class shows obscene material. Gov. Kathleen Sebelius line-item vetoed the bill.
Wagle has said she would continue her crusade against the class while the Kansas Legislature is in its veto session this week.
Hein and Sullivan were contacted by O'Reilly's show Thursday. The students were interviewed by O'Reilly via satellite at about 5 p.m. from the KU Alumni Center by the Kansas City Fox affiliate.
O'Reilly started the segment saying the Kansas Legislature has "postponed the vote on pulling funds" from KU "because of the antics of a professor who teaches a sex course, among other things. The professor has shown his students porn movies, has expressed sympathy for pedophiles and has a wheelchair sex day in his class."
O'Reilly asked Hein if the class was a big topic of discussion on campus.
"It's not so much there are different opinions going around," Hein said. "I think there's one major opinion going around: that these allegations are ridiculous. And the students, we don't know where they're coming from."
O'Reilly started asking questions one by one, as a prosecutor might ask a witness during a trial.
"Has this professor used pornographic films in the class," he asked Hein.
Sullivan tried to interject, but O'Reilly wanted Hein to respond.
"We watch videos in the class, yes," Hein said.
"This is a no spin zone, Jennifer," O'Reilly said. "It's a porn film or isn't it. Rick, is it a porn film?"
"No, it's not pornography," Hein said.
"I would call it sex, Bill. There it is. Now what do you want me to know about it," Sullivan said.
"X-rated movies. You see people having sex on the screen, right," O'Reilly asked.
Sullivan said, "Bill I would caution against some sort of an FCC rating system on the curriculum."
O'Reilly, cutting him off, said "You're doing a dance that doesn't do you any good or me any good. The guy's showing you flicks in the class that show people having sex. Yes or no?"
"Yes," Sullivan said.
"OK. What is the purpose of that, in your opinion?" O'Reilly asked.
"I think the purpose of that is to get us used to the idea of having sex so we can begin to think objectively about it," Sullivan said.
O'Reilly asked Hein what the purpose of her watching the X-rated films would be.
"I wouldn't call them X-rated films," Hein said. "But as far as the class goes, it's a human sexuality class--"
O'Reilly cut her off, saying "OK. I don't need the lecture from you, Jennifer. I want to know your personal reaction to watching an X-rated movie in that classroom. What good does it do you?"
Hein told O'Reilly she had a positive experience in the class and wasn't offended.
"That's fine," the host said. "What do you learn by watching an X-rated movie in a class, Jennifer?"
"Videos in the class have helped me understand the subject matter in the class a little bit more, and what we're trying to accomplish," Hein said.
O'Reilly continued his grilling: "OK, let's get specific. You're watching a sex film. You're seeing two people having sex, OK? Now you know, as a young woman, what that is. Did you have to see it? How did that help you?"
Hein said she thought that the videos have actually helped her, "because it breaks down some of the barriers that we deal with when talking about the subject."
O'Reilly asked if it made her less inhibited in discussion.
"Absolutely," she said. "I think that it's good because then we're all on the same page. And we all knew, kind of what messages that we deal with, about the sociology of it."
The host said, "The guys down on Times Square, they can make the same statement."
O'Reilly said he was merely trying to find out what the lesson plan was for the class. He said the class has a "pedophilia day."
"Apparently this guy, the teacher, said he can understand why some people are pedophiles. Did that happen, Rick?"
Sullivan said Dailey told the class that "he cannot approach any form of sexual abuser, be it a pedophile or anyone, with a personal judgment as a counselor because he would not be able to help them if he did that," Sullivan said.
O'Reilly wanted to know if Dailey had told that class that he could personally understand why some adults would be sexually attracted to children.
"Yes. And a lot of that, he believes, stems back to abuse in earlier years," Sullivan said.
O'Reilly asked Hein if she had a reaction to that statement from Dailey.
"I thought it was a good lecture that day. It was about sexual misuse. By dealing with these kinds of subjects, it helps us to be able to go out into communities and deal with people who are sexually misused and sexually abused," Hein said.
O'Reilly asked her if she believe that society should make a judgment about adults having sex with children.
Hein said she didn't understand what O'Reilly meant as having a judgment. To that, the host said she should, perhaps, take an ethics course to go along with the sexuality course.
"I have had a couple," she said.
Moving on, O'Reilly wanted to know about the "wheelchair sex day" and what that added to the students' understanding of human sexuality.
"The whole point of that, Bill was to let us know that even handicapped people do have sex, and that they are humans like the rest of us," Sullivan said.
"And you didn't know that before?" O'Reilly said.
Sullivan said there was a student in the class who corroborated what Dailey said, that people don't tend to view handicapped people that way.
"They tend to view them as freaks or mutants and really they're just people like the rest of us," Sullivan said.
O'Reilly asked if they were shown a video of handicapped people having sex.
"It was quite interesting, really," Sullivan said.
"From your point of view it might have been," O'Reilly said.