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Archive for Thursday, July 5, 2012

Court case causing more delays for SLT project

July 5, 2012

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When it comes to the South Lawrence Trafficway project, Lawrence is used to waiting.

Both supporters and opponents of the project to build a bypass through the Baker Wetlands are finding the waiting game extends to the legal case surrounding the roadway, too.

The U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in mid-January heard a case regarding whether the road project had the necessary approvals to build through the Baker Wetlands. Attorneys at the time had speculated a ruling could be issued by the court in 90 to 120 days. But as July 4 has come and gone, followers of the case are wondering when a decision may come.

A spokesman with the court said recently only the three judges who heard the case have any clue to when a ruling may be issued.

“We don’t have any idea until the court tells us they have a judgment they are ready to have entered,” said Doug Cressler, chief deputy clerk for the 10th Circuit. “The timetable is related to so many variables, including the number and complexity of issues.”

Several observers had expected the South Lawrence Trafficway case to take longer than the normal 90 days for an appellate court ruling because the SLT case file contained a staggering 8,000 pages of documents.

Recently, though, speculation had grown that if a ruling wasn’t made before July 4 that it likely would be at least another two months before a decision would be handed down. Speculation was the judges were set to go on recess, leaving the case in limbo. Cressler, though, said such speculation wasn’t accurate.

“We don’t have any type of terms like the U.S. Supreme Court does,” Cressler said. “We decide cases all year round. A decision could be handed down anytime.”

Comments

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

The SLT issue and the accompaning messes on 23rd and 31st are a bad case of constipation for the City. This will become increasing more evident when US 59 is fully open from Ottawa to Lawrence. The Lawrence situation is kinda reversed from the usual, usually urban areas outbuild the outgoing connectors to the surrounding more rural undeveloped environs. Here, we have a modern K 10 going east and west, a new US59 going south and a frigging mess in Lawrence. The old argument about the Haskell wetlands is a joke., As a kid in the 1940's and 50's I used to frequent that area, crossing to get to the Wauky for fishing, no signs of a wetland. The only thing wet was the occasional cowpie as a result of the Haskell cattle herd that occupied that area As soon as the road became a issue, all of a sudden all the nay-sayers rose to the surface, spouting something about being sacred ground. The attorneys of course, led the charge! Balderdash!!

gccs14r 2 years, 5 months ago

"As a kid in the 1940's and 50's I used to frequent that area, crossing to get to the Wauky for fishing, no signs of a wetland."

So just because you don't know what the conditions were like before you were born, it must have always been the way you remember it? That's an interesting, though flawed, way to look at history.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 5 months ago

I had a similar response when blindrabbit spammed the other thread with this comment.

Jayhawker07 2 years, 5 months ago

Go government and attorneys who are frivolosly wasting the tax payer money on this joke. I now beleive the road to no wear will live on past my life. What a bunch of idiots we live with. Can't we just give them some food stamps to go away? Guess not, they already are getting them on our buck. What a bunch of BS.

akt2 2 years, 5 months ago

Come on profs and geologists. Will you please post the documented history of the manmade wetland?

akuna 2 years, 5 months ago

I'm impressed you found something in the LJWorld archives. I have a heckava time finding anything old. Good work.

Ron Holzwarth 2 years, 5 months ago

akuna, it's very easy to find old articles in the archives. Use Google.com, and it might be helpful to also use LJWorld.com as a search term. The search function with the present LJWorld.com computer system is just about worthless.

But, you will very likely have a problem posting a clip and paste of some web addresses. For some reason, that happens every single time you try to link to an LJWorld.com article web address, because the new computer system will consider it to be spam and refuse to post it.

The way to work around that is to clip and paste the link at the website bit.ly, the complete web address is https://bitly.com/. Then one mouse click will shorten the link, and the system will post the shortened link every time.

(Thank you, Alex Parker!)

ljwhirled 2 years, 5 months ago

OMFG: Who cares? Build the road already. With a nice bike trail next to it, it will help to connect the East and West side of Lawrence.

Opposition to this project is so stupid. Just build it already.

John Hamm 2 years, 5 months ago

Build it but build it where it belongs (and always has belonged) South of the current route!

Orwell 2 years, 5 months ago

If the Powers That Be had been the least bit flexible on the route the project would have been completed 25 years ago at a small fraction of the ultimate cost to taxpayers.

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

gccs14r Thanks for the beating, but what evidence is there that the Haskell "Wetlands" ever was considered by Native Americans to be sacred. That argument could probably be made for all of North America as the culture of many tribes considered all of their ancentral lands to be so. Why would that particular section of the Wauky floodplain be deemed sacred, the Haskell site was not unusual until the Haskell Institure (name at the time) was founded and after Lawrence was settled.. Is there any evidence that pre-contact Native Americans looked at that location differently than any other location in the region? Lay off of the emotional bantering, just the evidence, I can be convinced with proof.

I fully support Native American issues and have been involved in grave repatriation issues and business dealings with many N.A. artists supporting their culture and heritage.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 5 months ago

"Thanks for the beating, but what evidence is there that the Haskell "Wetlands" ever was considered by Native Americans to be sacred. "

Isn't the fact that they claim it as sacred good enough for you? (rhetorical question-- we already know that you couldn't care less when your five minutes of convenience is at stake.)

Ron Holzwarth 2 years, 5 months ago

"Isn't the fact that they claim it as sacred good enough for you?"

That certainly clarifies many of your previous postings.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

No, it's not. If that area is so sacred why don't we close down 31st street. Sometimes, and this is one of those times. the good of many outweigh the good of a few. The only thing sacred about this land is it gives the indigenous people a chance to stick it to the white man. This is straight up racism!

jafs 2 years, 5 months ago

If the "few" weren't the small remains of a population that had been largely wiped out by new settlers to the country, this would be a different situation.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

This is the third and worst drought year that i can remember. Water is obviously more important than we ever thought it would be. The oglala Aquifer is down 50% or more.

Wetlands naturally purify runoff from higher elevations before the water re-enters the water supply. Otherwise, we would be drinking gasoline and sewage. Denying that there are wetlands between the bluff and the Wakarusa is not realistic. Whatever we do, we'd better plan well. The temperature is still going up, and we've had no rain.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

And exactly what empirical evidence do you have to prove that the "Ogallala" aquifer is down 50%. It wasn't even down that much during the dust bowl years. You are like every other environmentalist wacko. You make up statistics and then we're all supposed to stand around, nod our collective heads and go, "they're right". Please don't post any other statistics without some facts.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

Skip the name calling. It's not necessary if you have valid points. The concerns about the Oglala Aquifer have been in the news for a couple of years, most recently, regarding placement of the Keystone pipeline.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

Here is the link to a report on the Ogallala Aquifer (which I previously misspelled). http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2011/5089/pdf/SIR2011-5089.pdf USGS has to wait for some time interval before collecting more current data.

werekoala 2 years, 5 months ago

If it purifies water running through it before it re-enters the water supply...

...doesn't that mean that wetlands are the BEST place to put a major road? Purifying the gasoline, etc?

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

It's a bit more complicated than that. Filtering would be more beneficial higher up the watershed.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

blindrabbit....you sound like the uneducated people I've opposed since 1998. This land was used for gathering plants to use for medicinal uses before there were pharmacies. Indigenous peoples have survived for thousands of years knowing the uses and values of plants. This land was originally the domain of the Kaw and Osage Nations. By treaty, it was Shawnee land between 1825 and 1854. Between 1890 and 1905 the US Government used tribal monies held in the US Treasury to purchase the wetlands areas adding the to Haskell Campus until the farming program was transferred to the Chilocco Indian School in 1934 and the Federal Indian School Surplus Lands Act of 1962 was enacted and Baker University and White BIA and US government officials laundered the lands in question through the Health, Education, and Welfare Department to circumvent the restrictions on the amount of land allowed to be transferred at one time which was fifty acres. The area has always been wetlands due to the sandy soil which is typical of wetlands hydrology. It was nice to get Roger Boyd to finally admit this after many years of fanning the flames of misinformation concerning the hydrology and soil makeup of the wetlands to misinform people like you blindrabbit. He admitted this at an ECM discussion that I attended a couple of years ago on the KU campus. What do you know about indigenous peoples anyway?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

I wasn't there but it sounds like you got your facts wrong. You did a pretty good job of "reviewing the case" until you got to the ECM presentation by Dr. Boyd. I wasn't there but for Dr. Boyd to claim it has ALWAYS been wetlands sounds like wishful thinking on your part. To remain wetlands there has to be three things 1)wetland soil 2)water 3)wetland plants. While Haskell and then area farmers used it the area was drained and cultivated. So the wetland soil is there, has been for thousands of years and will never go away - but # 2 & 3 were gone for almost 80-130 years - depending on which part you point to. So what you probably heard Dr. Boyd say is that the soil has always been wetland soil - that alone does not make it wetland. Big difference.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

Blah, blah, blah, blah, medicinal plants. Blah, blah, blah, crapped in the woods there. Blah, blah, blah, walked through there on their way to the fishing hole.

Build the road.

Cant_have_it_both_ways 2 years, 5 months ago

Here is 10 pounds of compressed Give a #$%@#!

It is time to defund Haskell and make this Nation One Nation Under God.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

Furthermore, Haskell was a United Methodist ran federal Indian boarding school where Christianity trumped any indigenous practices which were banned by federal law in 1886. With indigenous religious practices and language banned by federal law those who defied these laws went to the wetlands to escape the scourge of Christianity and the punishment if it wasn't followed. Ironically, it wasn't until President Clinton signed the Religious Restoration and Freedom Act of 1993 that languages and practices weren't illegal on federal lands dating back to the 1886 law mentioned above. Remember, when traditional Indians opposed boarding schools and treaties their food and monetary treaty promises were held as a form of coercion. Lakota Holy men were jailed in the early 20th century for leading Sun Dances by BIA officials. Cherokee traditional leader Redbird Smith was jailed for not submitting to allotment of Cherokee lands in Indian Territory and Potawatomi Holy Man Wahquahboshkuk was held in the brig at Fort Riley after he and another leader rode a train to D.C. to complain about their corrupt reservation agent in the 1890's. I love how local historically uneducated White people claim that the Prayer Wheel was built in the early 1990s to stop the SLT when in reality it was the passage of the act above that allowed the Native American Church to conduct ceremonies on the Haskell campus and many other indigenous beliefs and practices to be out in the open without fear of federal prosecution on Indian lands as a side effect of the Major Crimes Act of 1886. I can attest to seeing people exercising their beliefs. I was on a ferry boat trip between Manitoulin Island and Tobemory Point, Ontario, en route to Toronto in the summer of 2002. Ten cars were driving onto the ferry and one driver was a young Ojibwe man. He was purifying himself with smoke at the steering wheel of his car as the boat pulled away. Here that would be protected as part of the First Amendment as individual practices of multiple beliefs that different tribal members use in the wetlands would also be protected. The First Amendment shouldn't be trumped by a highway. Not all places of worship have walls.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

Furthermore, too bad!

Build the road.

Cant_have_it_both_ways 2 years, 5 months ago

I sure like Tuschies use of uneducated when it applies to the White Man. Lets see, last time I looked, graduation rate at Haskell was like less than 10%. Those who live in glass houses.....

Ron Holzwarth 2 years, 5 months ago

And race on it too! And, once in a while, some people will drive into the ditch.

It is an unfortunate fact that many vehicles end up in the ditch, even in broad daylight when there is not even a curve at that location.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

forget facts...archie bunker doesn't need facts.....

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

That's right. Meat. Head. Dead from the neck up!

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

Your posts are ridiculous. You demonstrate a lot of attitude and no rationale. You lack civility. I will not respond to any more of your drivel, and I suggest others do the same.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

oh you weren't there but it always necessary to make sure the level of propaganda is maintained to get the $. Just like that Kochfacts.com trying to run interference for the Koch Brother. Gotta have that $.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

That's right the Koch's are building this road too. How do you like them apples? Phhhhht!

bd 2 years, 5 months ago

What a bunch of morons! You wetland huggers have no idea what is comming! Once new hwy 59 and the new container transfer facility between Gardener - Edgerton is completed , the truck traffic down 23rd and 31st will be a nightmare!

LOL!

average 2 years, 5 months ago

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how any possible development in the Gardner-Edgerton area could possibly impact traffic in eastern Lawrence. I could see trucks trying to get from Gardner to I-70 possibly buzzing through Baldwin to the new 59 to the existing SLT. That makes sense. But, 23rd/31st? Via Eudora? What? Gardner/Edgerton are south of Lawrence. There's a rather nice freeway from Gardner to Ottawa, so I don't see anyone using 59 that way either.

Ron Holzwarth 2 years, 5 months ago

Has there ever been an "actually serious" study about a possible route south of the wetlands? The wetlands are simply not that large at 573 acres. That is less than one square mile. I just cannot imagine that it's not possible to construct a highway around something that is as small as that.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

No. Developers and land owners maneuvered the location. The southern path is a socioeconomic path.

grimpeur 2 years, 5 months ago

And SOR was the original route plan.

Yes, those who complain that this road should have been built long ago are correct. However, most of the complainers don't know why the road hasn't been built yet. The reason is the peculiar insistence on a wetlands route.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

ANd those that don't understand that insistence haven't been paying attention to the explanations.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 5 months ago

Ya got any more unrelated talking points to add to this thread, tuschie? (from a source)

Clayton Kelly 2 years, 5 months ago

Ron - i was wondering the same damn thing....

Ron Holzwarth 2 years, 5 months ago

Really, geez, where I came from, that is, western Kansas, there are some wheat fields that are one entire square mile, that is, 640 acres, and for some reason, there has never been any difficulty building roads around them.

Orwell 2 years, 5 months ago

Quotation 'marks' and 'occasional' random concepts. 'Always' helpful to 'the' discussion.

bd 2 years, 5 months ago

I am up for some swamp buggy racing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )

Joe Hyde 2 years, 5 months ago

An old timer I knew who lived in North Lawrence grew up near the town of Clinton. Many yers ago he told me once that in his parents time much of the Wakarusa River floodplain was natural wetland with areas of swamp its entire length. According to Don, these wetlands were created indirectly by the progressively building up of the riverbank's soil elevation during periods of high water. (Water spilled over these high banks then got trapped in the floodplain once the river level dropped.)

So although the Baker Wetlands is a contemporary man-made wetland, its location and morphology fit the historical morphology and ecology of the Wakarusa River, making Baker Wetlands an important physical representative of how the entire Wakarusa valley looked during thousands of years of early American habitation, followed by early European settlement.

For these reasons alone the Wetlands is an environment worth preserving as a public attraction and as a teaching tool. It is also an environment worth considering as sacred ground whether you're an American Indian or not, simply because of the galaxy of wildlife species that occupy the place either as permanent residents or transitory migrants.

notorious_agenda 2 years, 5 months ago

Where are the fire squirrels when you need them!

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

simpletons and casinos on land that isn't in federal trust are part of having this discussion with trolls present. you'd think the trolls would leave the wetlands alone since they live in a van down by the river.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey, I'm a motivational speaker that lives in a van down by the river!

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

South of the Wauky option, feasible probably, costlly very much so, much longer distance, throw in 2 bridges crossing the river (cannot get by with just one) and need to purchase additional private properties.

Why not upgrade the existing 31st Street, 4 lanes with good turning and access provisions at Louisiana Street and Haskell Avenue. Seems to work at YSI crossover, why not in those locations, probably need lights at both! Tie-ins would be relatively easy on the west through the Messerall Property and the east by Mary's Lake. Piece of cake to me, maybe too much common sense.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

Louisiana St. Is a residential street with many driveways, cul de sacs, and schools. There are no 4-way intersections which would warrant traffic controls. The neighborhood behind Checkers is pretty much landlocked. Terrain would make widening more expensive than a flat map would indicate. In other words, South Loisiana St. Does not have the capacity to handle more traffic.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

I have always thought that 31st. Is one of the most functional streets in town. If you include Kasold, it's also the longest through street. It cannot be widened, because the sate, city, and county do not have enough right of way to widen 31st.

Did you know that the plan is to vacate 31st and build 32nd street along the proposed SLT?

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

gotland....it's the federal government that protects tribes and minorities from segregationists and thieves. I've done work for a local tribe of Munsee Indians over the years who had White people steal their livestock and timber when they had a reservation and locals wouldn't bat an eye to stop it unless the tribe gave up it's federal recognition which in turn led to the selling off of tribal lands and other theft. What the average American is ignorant to is the policy of the Federal Government telling tribes one thing while states and non Indians conspire to do another.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

actually south of the river not that much more $. costs were inflated to make 32nd route look more attractive $ wise. The Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation funded a side by side $ comparison of north and south of the river showing that the powers that be inflated costs to justify north of the river. The comparison study was a covert study done to show how this whole process has been gamed by $.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 5 months ago

Blame the local real estate/developer/banking executives for making the wrong choice when a south of the river route was on the table. This is called massive corruption and pork barrel spending. Aka Fiscally Reckless and a massive waste of tax dollars.

Gasoline will be ever more expensive in the near future and car travel is one of the most expensive modes of travel as we speak. A $300 million trafficway is reckless spending and for what....... a ton of vehicles carrying only one person.

That makes the most vehicles on the road EmpT.

Cars = the most expensive budget items ever in history = fiscally reckless.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

OMG! Look who decided to chime in! Go back to Berkeley, Merrill.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 5 months ago

Why build anything in a flood zone = more expensive.

Why pay additional millions to control flood water when the wetlands is doing the job at no extra cost to taxpayers. Have we lost all sense of what fiscal responsibility is?

Where did all of the fiscal conservatives go?

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

I decided to join the stimulus pack and lobby to spend spend spend on this project to put thousands of construction workers, millions of teachers, billions of cops and trillions of SEIU workers back on the job!!!

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

Tuschkahoma: Don't buy it, the addition of 2 river crossings would more than significantly up the cost. Also, the maintenance on these structures over time would be considerable, painting, steel corrosion, road bed spalling, icing conditions. I'll bet the "South" solution would more than double the cost of the proposed project. Also, my guess is that usership would be lessened/discouraged with people opting for the existing 31st Street or the snafu of 23rd. Strret.

What is the problem with a 31st. Street upgrade, per my earlier?

gorilla10 2 years, 5 months ago

If you don't think this project is going to happen then you're craaaazy. Can't wait to get it started!!!!! I've been around Topeka and Lawrence for awhile and this project would benefit more people than any I can remember!!!! LET'S GET IT STARTED

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

31st is still federal Haskell land where easement has been granted. Keep being disrespectful and see if the easement agreement is kept!

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

We'll just take that too! How do you like us now?

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

If they have to, build a tunnel under or a Golden Gate style suspension bridge over the Louisiana Street to Haskell Avenue segment. Not as illogical as some of the other things we've seen over the years on this subject.

50YearResident 2 years, 5 months ago

Haskell has been aginst this project from day one. They have made up many excuses for why not to build the road. They keep changing the reasons as ofen as they change students at the school. I will name just the few I remember. 1 The endangered frog. 2 The lizard crossing. 3 The smoke lodge 4 Indian burial grounds. 5 Beaver habitat. 6 Traffic noise disturbing to students. Sacred lands. Wildlife reffuge. 6 Water purification.
They change reasons as otfen as they change their shorts. Get if built!

Carol Bowen 2 years, 5 months ago

50% of the residents in the area are opposed to the SLT as well. (surveyed) Their concerns are related to traffic on Loisiana St. and storm water problems - lack of drainage, ground water urping up, etc. it's noot just Haskell. Of course, 50% support the SLT for other reasons. It's not just Haskell.

rtwngr 2 years, 5 months ago

Like I said in a previous reply; Haskell has been against this because it is a way that the indigenous peoples of that school can stick it to the white man. Straight up racism because it's payback time. Period! The bigots out at Haskell and around town are laughing their collective fannies off watching the white people twist in the wind at every court challenge. Someone needs to be fined for filing frivolous lawsuits.

gphawk89 2 years, 5 months ago

Couple of words come to mind: "embarrassment" and "laughingstock"...

blondejuan 2 years, 5 months ago

If building the SLT through the Baker University built wetlands is so hortible why isn't someone trying to shut down 31st street?

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

nice to hear the full volume of ignorance and trolling......

blindrabbit 2 years, 5 months ago

tushkahouma; Are you listening to a recording of your posts as you look into a mirror as you "hear the full volume of ignorance and trolling" Too much emotion and not enough paying attention to the real history and usage.

mae 2 years, 5 months ago

This would've been a simple road. People are going to turn it into a 4lane highway with 20ft walls

The longer this litigatino goes on, the bigger the project will need to be. .

50YearResident 2 years, 5 months ago

Haskell requested the walls to reduce precieved traffic noise, and as another delay tactic. If you think walls are necessary, just go out west on 10 by the ball fields and listen for 1 hour. You will not hear near as much as you will hear sitting at Perkins on 23rd St.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 5 months ago

When 18 wheelers flood the trafficway there will be plenty of noise and tons of tailgating. More wrecks as well.

50YearResident 2 years, 5 months ago

Do you mean the 18 wheelers that are now driving down 23 st through Lawrence? There have been so many 18 wheeler wrecks there. Can you list a few for us?

Richard Heckler 2 years, 5 months ago

EmpT cars = the most expensive tax dollar moochin budget items ever in history = fiscally reckless.

To say there is no other way is simply nonsense. There is always another way. Such as " many concepts built into one fiscally responsible plan = prudent thinking".

SAY NO to the high tax dollar obsolete Trafficway that will NOT improve 23rd street. The only way to improve 23rd is to SAY NO to KU students…… good luck on removing the ONLY dependable Lawrence revenue source.

SAY YES to a no tax dollar bypass that can accomplish many things such as saving tax payers hundreds of millions of dollars.

I-70 connectors east of Eudora were among the potential choices. This would be a toll road thereby users to include 18 wheelers help finance the project. This concept accomplishes many things. First and foremost it saves taxpayers closer to $300 million.... I'll never believe the obsolete trafficway can be built for $188 million after 20 years.

The new I-70 connectors off K-10 going north, I-70 and the west leg of K-10 should all be toll roads. This combination provides a loop around Lawrence thus eliminating any need for further construction of new pork barrel highway projects.

Thus saving about $200,000,000 - $300,000,000(million) for taxpayers.

It also services: • Johnson and Douglas county traffic going to northwest Lawrence or Topeka. Or Lawrence and Topeka traffic going to JOCO. • the Eudora Business Park east of 1057. • East Hills Business Park and the southeast Lawrence industrial park. • the Lawrence airport. And it: • diverts traffic around the city. • keeps the SLT out of the wetlands. • reduces congestion for morning and afternoon commuters. • Douglas County taxpayers save millions upon millions of dollars. • Eliminates use of tax dollars. • Eliminates the need for an eastern bypass * Would not dump fast moving traffic off uncomfortably close to the congested city limits on to the K-10 speedway • allows KTA fees to pay for the highway and maintenance.

Now this plan is on to something….. many concepts built into one fiscally responsible plan = prudent thinking.

I-70 is there to be used so let's do it. Saving REAL BIG tax dollars is a new concept. Pork barrel projects are neither fiscally conservative nor responsible = wasted and inefficient use of tax dollars

Again EmpT cars = the most expensive budget items ever in history = fiscally reckless.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

this is exactly what happens when the uninformed gallery shows up. you make uninformed comments all day and acts is if the US Government can steal land for you and dream up all kinds of nonsense involving going over and under the wetlands. you assail other's religious beliefs protected by the First Amendment, the Native American Religious Freedom Act of 1978, and the Religious Freedom and Restoration Act of 1993, you blame people for stalling when your purchased officials angling for a pre arranged ending have their apple cart upset by laws they tried to ignore that they have to be dragged to court to obey. You call the victims of your ignorance and flaunting of laws bigots when your churches and your government tried to use bigoted views to rise up a mob mentality to ignore history and run roughshod with the power of ignorance. you're living proof that this country failed at teaching US History and US Government. Your comments involve emotion and not fact because you know you'd lose the facts arguement. You troll because you'd lose the facts arguement. You say outlandishy ignorant comments because you know no better or know nothing at all. What a telling statement about the ability of the average person to comprehend and not try to be the class clown in light os serious issues. I guess the word genie passes for intelligence out of the mouths of simpletons.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Well, Tuschie, about all I can say is that I feel sorry for you. You are so dillusional you really have no idea what you are talking about. In fact, I don't think you have any idea what anyone else is talking about either. You talk like you have won court case after court case and have even won this one and the SLT is already shut down. And HINU pulling their right-of-way out from under 31st Street - that's a good one! It isn't possible or even necessary to try to debate with you as you don't understand rationale statements when they are made. Good ahead and call me ignorant and racist...its the only come back you ever have when you are losing an argument.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

I guess I feel sorry for you discounting 8,000 pages of testimony that the court has to go through because you know.....8,000 pages of testimony probably doesn't come from that many opponents does it? maybe if you went to the online version of Indian Country Today and read all the articles concerning the SLT there you'd see the wrong of what you're advocating and acknowledge the intentional disregard of real history....not the uneducated nonsense that flies on here. If 31st street isn't the cards as you so uninformedly assert why has the idea of pulling up that pavement been suggested in previous deliberations concerning the SLT? if you haven't been involved in fighting against this for over a decade maybe you shouldn't act like you know something other than your teacher's denialistic $ propaganda. Calling oneself a Democrat and acting this contrarily against nature and minorities...why that's a GOP attitude.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 5 months ago

"...And there is another type of Caps Lock user who doesn’t capitalize whole sentences but INSTEAD capitalizes a few SPECIFIC words for EMPHASIS. Now read a sentence like that aloud, shouting every time you come to a capitalized word, and tell me you do not sound like an absolute freakin’ lunatic. This method can turn even basic known facts into crazy-sounding gibberish (“The SQUARE of the HYPOTENUSE of a RIGHT triangle equals the SUM of the squares of the OTHER two sides”)..." http://pjmedia.com/blog/tips-for-not-appearing-crazy-on-the-internet/

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Tuschie, You're comments (they aren't even arguments) are incoherent and for the most part irrelevant. Just because Pott. Nation clandestanly hired a retired engineer from Texas to redraw 42nd St doesn't make it relevant. He used incorrect road design. I'm not sure what your point about the 8,000 pages is. This shouldn't be a shocker - something being stonewalled by BS for 15 years should probably have a lot of text. In regards to 31st St. you were the one threatening to remove the county's ROW - something that isn't legally possible anyway. And you know full well why it will be removed - so that HINU can have more of their sacred wetlands. But wait, this has never been about the wetlands or the environment for you has it? And we all know that if it is printed in Indian Country News it is factual and truthful...and those "facts" have been checked and rechecked, right? Here is one fact in this case - it has nothing to do with any mistreatment or cheating of American Indians in the past. It is all about whether Federal NEPA guidelines and associated laws e.g. 4f, have been followed. According to federal laws if the land in question is not considered Tribal Cultural Property it doesn't matter who declares it sacred, it isn't sacred in court. And as you keeping arguing, it is about my $. I'm a tax payer and the longer you and other opponents stonewall it the more it will cost.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

guess what Idaho I just cut and pasted your comments about the journalistic integrity of Indian Country Today a nationally printed newspaper based out of New York State operated by the Oneida Nation of New York. You just stepped into nation wide stink. You absolutely ignore the Boyd's role in acquiring Indian lands under a suspicious cloud. You ignore history because that's what Americans do.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Who do you think you are? So you can cut and paste...so can Merrill - what is your point? I have read articles in ICT that quote people from HINU and Lawrence about ghosts and unmarked graves as though they were fact. How do you check those "facts"? WHOOO, "nation wide stink" - what? I now need to worry about a drive-by scalping? I can't speak for the Boyd's but I know I don't ignore history. I pay attention to it, I just don't let it dictate my life as you do. History can also lie. For you to believe that the Boyd's were a part of the land transfer to Baker is a case in point. Roger Boyd was a student at Baker at the time, how was he involved? Ivan Boyd merely supported the request from Baker Univ. to HEW. He can hardly be held accountable for anything suspicious that HEW might have done. I do know that if it weren't for Baker University and the effort by the Boyd's there would be no Baker Wetlands today and no public access. What about that part of history that you seem to ignore?

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

nice racist comment about scalping.....that I expect from you. Your condescending comments concerning ghosts and spirits highlights the cultural difference between European immigrants and indigenous peoples. I'll use a quote from a book on Louisiana Indians where there were Choctaw people who regarding all living things as equals....a concept white people seem to have a problem with. This priest always saw this Louisiana Choctaw man speaking Choctaw to animals particularly squirrels. One day the priest asked a fellow Choctaw man who spoke some English why the other man spoke to the squirrels. His answer "He speaks squirrel....you don't". In all of your American arrogance Idaho you completely disregard the concepts of spirtuality on other cultures. I felt strength as I stood on my tribe's Nunih Waiya mound in Mississippi with my late mother in 2005 a couple of weeks before Hurricane Katrina obliterated the Mississippi I grew up knowing. I felt great sorrow standing at the front of Wounded Knee in June 2000 overlooking the valley where AIM and the FBI fought it out in 1973 and felt even more sorrow as I stood in the vicinity of American genocide that took place in December 1890 when Minneconjou Chief Bigfoot and his followers were chased down and murdered like dogs by the US 7th Cavalry. The reason those people were murdered and the reason the Haskell students were treated with such disregard is because they posed a threat to total assimilation in the past. The reason you deny our history to promote your road is because we like them still pose a threat to your assimilationist nature. Have church in a building or else we will build through your church and make fun of your beliefs and turn all of the bigots loose on you like what has been done on here over the last 100 or so comments. I'm sure ICT will have fun with your comments when you wind up the target or ridicule on Indianz.com this week. You know they take offensive comments like yours and let all of Indian Country see. You know the Four Directions.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

They are not wetlands by appearance only. It requires three things: 1)water 2)wetland vegetation 3)wetland soils. The area on the north side of 31st street has all three. It only has to be wet for two weeks continuously each year and in some cases not even every year. Thus the wetland issue isn't going away.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 5 months ago

Will the usual suspects draw straws to see who gets to play Rachel Corrie when SLT construction starts?

tbaker 2 years, 5 months ago

How about they put the SLT on piers and build a long low bridge across this thing? That way the sacred swamp won't be bulldozed and the mud people can still go sit in the muck and chant away neatly piling their rocks and sticks, speak some squirrel, drink some free-trade herbal tea and commune with the Earth Mother. The do-gooder altruist citizens of Lawrence can force everyone else to soak up the huge tax levy for another moronic idea that costs orders of magnitude more than the smart way to do it. As a bonus, the evil working people (probably descendants of the soulless white settlers who enslaved the native swamp people) will have to pay the taxes and get to pick up the check (again) - that way everyone is happy and the rest of mainstream society can have a nice road to drive on. BTW, how did a man-made swamp turn into a protected "wetland" anyway? The "history" of this piece of low ground that tends to collect water is kinda sketchy.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

ironically to kill two White falsehoods about history I'll tackle the issue.......the scalping and the redskin mascot issue come from the same historical event. After the Jamestown Colony landed in 1607 in Virginia, they settled on extremely inferior tidal land and began seeking food in trade from the 25 or so tribes of the Powhattan Confederacy. Tribes with names like Nansemond, Pamunkey, Rhappahannock, Chickahominy some of which still exist and have had their federal recognition thwarted by an Indian hating GOP congress even after they gave up the right to casinos to get federally recongized. Twenty years or so went by and by the 1630's the tribes and the English battled in the Powhattan War. Out of that war came bounties paid by the English colonial authorities for the proof of dead Indians in the names of scalps and redskins. One had to have the bloody skin and scalp of a human being to get a bounty from the English colonial government. So yes it began with colonists attempting genocide of the Powhattan Confederacy which was almost accomplished by the 1640's. Six of the 26 tribes still exist to this day and some of their kids have attended Haskell in the past, Without rain the Haskell wetlands will dry just like the Everglades do when they burn in Florida and they will look like the dry wetlands area near Trading Post, KS, and the Marais Des Cygne River that I saw Saturday morning after stomp dancing at the Quapaw pow-wow early in the morning.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Wetlands are protected by Section 404 of the Clean Air Act whether they are pristine, restored, or created. There are essentially no wetlands in Kansas that aren't "man-made" in some way. In the case of the Wakarusa Valley wetlands, the area was wetlands for centuries, was drained beginning in 1854 (Homesteaders Act), and then the drainage system was plugged in the early 1990's.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Interesting account of the "origin" of scalping. Here is another one from Wikipedia:

Certain tribes of Native Americans practiced scalping, in some instances up until the end of the 19th century. According to Haines and Steckel (2000), "Probably the most dramatic skeletal example of prehistoric violence in North America comes from the Crow Creek site in central South Dakota. Archaeological excavations revealed about 486 skeletons within a fortification ditch on the periphery of the habitation area. The site represents the Initial Coalescent period and dates to about 1325 A.D. P. Willey's analysis revealed that 90% of the individuals had cut marks characteristic of scalping."[8] The source is Steckel & Haines "A Population History of North America".

This would indicate that some American Indian tribes practiced scalping way before colonists arrived on the continent.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

white people always use white anthros and archies. why listen to people who've been here the whole time anyway?

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

yeah, and paul brockington is one of them.....

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

a college graduate using wikipedia....I'd expect more from you.....you don't want to cut corners on research and yet that is what was done with the EIS. good science work right????

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

no he didn't because he lived like 8,000 years ago......way before your conservative intelligent design clowns were riding dinosaurs. (laughing at a troll). Oh, yeah, and he was Native not white.....you lose.....

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Can you refute the Steckel and Haines source? Doubt it. You lose. Don't be such a sore loser.

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

yeah....and those white scientists were so sure about cannibalism amongst the Anasazi..... using carbon dating that is only soooo accurate and not really worrying about how offensive their white science is to the native peoples whom these scientists see as less than human. digging up people with no regard for cultural sensitivity.....building roads through physical places with no regard for cultural sensitivity.....heck the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act has only been in effect for 22 years.....prior to that your ilk dug with impugnity and total disrespect for Native peoples. It's this whole oblivious arrogant unwilling to listen attitude of Non-Native peoples that has poisoned the whole SLT issue. Go read the Lyng legal case from 1989 for a bad example of your culture's treatment of indigenous peoples. Maybe the closing of Devil's Tower for a short time in the summer to allow probably 15 tribes to practice their religious beliefs that existed way before America did is a good example of understanding Native peoples spiritual ties to the land. Again.....wikipedia.....really????? go read Repatriation Reader by KU Professor Devon Mihesuah to learn all about all of the offensive acts of scientists in regard to archaeology

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

Again, an interesting and irrelevant response. You have stated complaints about the process of discovery but have not presented any refute to the claim that American Indians used scalping on each other prior to Colonialist arrival in North America. You should thank me, I gave you another golden opportunity for you to deny your majority culture and cast vile and disgust on your ancestors. Good job. But you go right ahead and hold on to that Powhattan War fantasy...

Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

yes and you quoted wikipedia and sounded as smart as paul brockington (laugh). millenials using wikipedia.....professors must love your scholarly effort.... ask the Custalow family how much of their history is a fantasy..... how white of you.........

Flap Doodle 2 years, 5 months ago

I will drive on the new SLT whilst wearing a Braves hat and a Redskins t-shirt. ( ... from ... a ... source ... )

IdahoWinds 2 years, 5 months ago

You scoff using Wikipedia but my point is that the cited source is relevant and irrefutable by you so my case stands that scalping was most likely used by indigenous people of North America before Colonists arrived. Get with the real world, Tuschie, Wikipedia is no worse than library sources as long as the cited references are there and verifiable.

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