Archive for Sunday, September 9, 2007
Area church prides itself on diversity, acceptance
September 9, 2007
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Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka
The Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka is one of two of its kind in Kansas. The church's mission centers on diversity and ministering to outcasts. In Topeka, about 90 percent of the church's membership is gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered. Rev. Patrick Rogers talks about the church. Enlarge video
Interim pastor Patrick Rogers administers communion to Deb Bader, left, and Linda Finch, Topeka, Sept. 2 at the Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka, 4425 S.W. 19th St. The church's mission centers on diversity, acceptance and ministering to outcasts.
Topeka — The service at Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka begins with the singing of "Jesus Loves Me." The standard handshake greetings, call to worship, prayer and children's sermon follow.
It's not until the pastor's sermon that it becomes clear that this church has a different doctrine from ones that many mainstream congregations would embrace.
In a white robe and multicolored stole with a red ribbon on his chest, the Rev. Patrick Rogers begins his message with "Alice in Wonderland."
He has the congregation repeat the line from the hurried white rabbit.
"Oh dear, oh dear, I'm late, I'm late for a very important date."
It's then that Rogers says, offhandedly, that the rabbit must be gay.
"I just don't think any straight rabbit would ever talk that way," Rogers quips. "Maybe that is why I relate to the story."
Welcome to Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka.
It's one of two of its kind in Kansas. The church's mission centers on diversity, acceptance and ministering to outcasts. In Topeka, about 90 percent of the church's membership is gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered.
At a time when sexuality and religion is being debated among presidential candidates and mainstream churches, this congregation has seen its attendance double in the past few months. Members come from throughout northeast Kansas, some driving more than an hour to attend Sunday's services.
The members attribute the blossoming numbers to several changes - a larger church, a new pastor and the growing feeling that people can come, worship and be safe there.
Belonging
On this Sunday, Rogers' sermon is about slowing down and reaching out to others. And it gives him a chance to share his own story.
Growing up in a small Tennessee town as a regular churchgoer, Rogers said when he finally came out at age 20, he couldn't reconcile his church's message that being gay was an "abomination to God" with the one that Jesus loved his enemies.
So he stopped going.
Twenty years later, he was sitting in his car outside a Metropolitan Community Church in Florida, working up the nerve to go inside. The service started at 11 a.m. It took him until 10:59 a.m. to climb out of his car. When he did go inside, he felt embraced.
"So many people come here in need and looking for one place in their lives where they can find unconditional love," Rogers said to his parishioners.
The congregation, a group of about 90, listens. They're dressed casually in jeans, khakis, polo shirts, sandals and skirts.
Outside the sanctuary door, a large bowl of popcorn sits on a table, for munching during the service.
As people stream up to the front - to sing duets, lead the liturgy, give the children sermons, act out a scene in the middle of Rogers' message - it seems as if almost everyone in the pews had some official role to play during the service.
During communion, same-sex couples walk up to the front of the sanctuary holding hands. In some cases, their children follow behind. Once at the altar, they swallow the wafer dipped in wine and then huddle with the pastor or the other servers. In a group, they are blessed.
"Our mission here is to spread the word about God's unconditional love, because so many in the LGBT community have been told by a lot of churches that God doesn't love us," Rogers said. "I didn't have to go to seminary to discover that God loves me. When I stepped foot in my first MCC church, it took me 10 minutes to know that God's presence is here."
Many have similar stories to Rogers' of falling away from the church after realizing their sexual orientation and then finding their way to MCC.
Annette Billings had just come out as a lesbian when she attended a meeting at the church. She saw a flier hanging on the wall that piqued her interest.
"Christian homosexual, I thought it was a contradiction of terms at the time," she said.
But it was a concept that she said disappeared.
"It really wasn't a long process for me, I guess, because of the degree of acceptance and love I found here," she said.
One woman drives 65 miles one way to come to church. She's been a member for more than 15 years, but she remembers the courage it took to walk through the door the first time.
"I was greeted like I belonged here forever," she said. "The best way I can describe it, I felt centered, and I hadn't felt centered for a long period of time."
'Open and affirming'
Several Lawrence churches have adopted language and policies to embrace and welcome gays and lesbians.
In 2004, members of the Plymouth Congregational Church voted to be an "open and affirming" church for gays and lesbians. The decision prompted some members to leave, but it has also attracted new ones, said the Rev. Peter Luckey, senior pastor.
"We are not only open to all people, but we go the next step. We affirm who you are as a child of God, created in God's image, regardless of orientation," he said.
At the Unity Church in Lawrence, a quarter of the congregation is gay or lesbian, the Rev. Darlene Strickland estimated. During seminary, Strickland said she had a class where an MCC pastor spoke on the Bible and sexuality.
"The church does a good job in having the conversation and inviting other churches to have the conversation," Strickland said.
The Rev. Andrew McHenry - a pastor of Maple Hill Community Congregational Church and a member of the Topeka Evangelical Area Ministries - said MCC has its strength of offering warmth, affirmation and unconditional acceptance. But, he said, there is a major difference between what that church and evangelical Protestants, most mainline Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe.
"We tend to interpret the Bible more conservatively, and we believe the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus and with Christian teachings," he said.
The Rev. Thad Holcombe, campus minister for Ecumenical Christian Ministries with Kansas University, predicts more churches will become open to gays and lesbians. But to do so, he said, there has to be a frank discussion that first likely would lead to disagreement. He pointed to the Presbyterian, Lutheran and Methodist denominations that have been considering the issue.
"Sexuality has a lot more to do with than just sex. It has to do with how we relate to one another and how we are intimate, how we care for one another, how we become male or female or maybe something in between," Holcombe said. "Many have failed in seminary, as well as parishes and congregations, to talk about sexuality. They talk about sex, but they don't talk about sexuality."
Even as more churches open to gays and lesbians, Nancy Maxwell, a member of Topeka's MCC's board of directors, said their church will remain relevant.
"We have been working with diversity on all levels - on sexual orientation, on race, in faith traditions, in class - we know how to do it, and I think we will become the consultants for the mainstream churches on how you deal with issues of diversity," Maxwell said.
The church doesn't just focus on issues surrounding sexual orientation, she said. "The ministry is about outcasts, however that may be defined," she said.
With a laugh, Cindy Taylor is identified as a sexual minority in the church. She came after she was diagnosed with HIV. Her home church said she could no longer bring food or help out in the children's nursery.
"Those were stipulations I couldn't tolerate," she said.
A growing flock
The Topeka church started in 1981 when two founding members had attended an MCC church in Wichita. On the way home, it was decided that one was needed in Topeka.
The group of about three to four grew as word got out.
"A lot of (spreading the word) was done through the AIDS pandemic coming along, through the bars and different places that folks gathered," member Jerry Medley said.
Two years ago, the church moved to southwest Topeka in a 1950s-era church that was home to other denominations. The concrete building they had left could fit in the new sanctuary.
The church has more than 60 active members, but attendance has been averaging more than 70 people on Sundays and is expanding. So much so that members started a fundraising drive for more hymnals.
Members say the surrounding neighborhood has been accepting, its residents coming to a gay pride picnic this summer. Other churches in the city included the church in progressive dinners and a Lent tradition where pastors preach at different churches. However, they still have the occasional protesters.
The church is supportive of community organizations such as the Topeka AIDS Project, providing a food pantry and hosting meetings in the church almost nightly.
"Within the 14 counties we work in, they are without a doubt the most supportive faith-based organization that we have," said Debbie Guilbault, Topeka AIDS Project executive director.
Twelve-step programs, gay and lesbian support groups and a youth group all meet at the church.
Social justice is among the church's missions. Part of the volunteer efforts are fueled by being in a place that is welcoming, members said.
"When you are accepted, all of a sudden, you have energy," Maxwell said. "And you've got energy to do discipleship. Part of discipleship is social justice. You can't be a Christian and not do social justice."
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9 September 2007
at 12:52 a.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks your an $^&@!…
9 September 2007
at 7:30 a.m.
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number3of5 (Anonymous) says…
This is in no way a congregation for God unless they follow the teachings of God and Jesus. Yes, Jesus said to love thine enemies, but he did not tell you that their beliefs and ways were right. He also did not tell you to follow in their footsteps.
9 September 2007
at 8:07 a.m.
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ontheotherhand (Anonymous) says…
Don't worry, Ragingbear. Most of us thinks Christianity is filled with hateful people like you. And thanks for making me remember that it's not Christianity that I have a problem with; it's most Christians that I can't stand (too hateful and mean). It's just too bad so many people feel like they need Christianity to survive.
9 September 2007
at 9:18 a.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
Raging,people with disabilities(fancied or real)were considered abominations at one time.Then eventually accepted as charity cases by the Christian church(alms houses).People with disabilities(fancied or real)were even denied immigration status right here in the US early on.
People who live in glass houses…..
9 September 2007
at 10:12 a.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
Ah. Two Christians who immediately assumed they were better than me. Typical Christian behavior. No wonder the rest of the world hates them.
9 September 2007
at 10:34 a.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
In that case,I eat shrimp.I even ate Octopus once(once).Those are both abominations.I believe I have to go light a sheep on fire now,is that correct?Or sacrafice my first born Son?
Rage I havent accepted or denied anyone besides my loving caring God who is never broke and asking for money or sending his Son to go do it for him.My perception of the all mighty is noone's business but my own and I resent the accusation.I am nowhere near sainthood and have never claimed to be.
Hate,raging?Do you really feel that dillusion of relevence?No,I hate no one.And I love my God for giving me the capacity to get off to work everyday and increase my net worth every year so when I do get to the point where I can no longer provide for myself I can live quietly in paradise.Probably PuertoRico.
9 September 2007
at 10:34 a.m.
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classclown (Anonymous) says…
“…about 90 percent of the church's membership is gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered.”
=================================
How exactly does that make it diverse? Looks like a specific group of people rather than people from all walks of life.
Or is “diverse” the new catchphrase for being gay?
9 September 2007
at 10:38 a.m.
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kansasdaughter (Anonymous) says…
americorps, loved you response, esp this part;
“The churches are about power and control and money and have long since abandoned God…” Fear and guilt are powerful ways to control people.
If people would just worry about themselves and their own spirituallity, all this finger-pointing and hating would stop. Some don't understand that when one points a finger at someone/thing, there are three fingers pointing back at the pointer.
9 September 2007
at 10:40 a.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
Well,classclown if you show up than it will be “diverse” than won't it?Put up or shut up.
Ooops.I made the assumption that you are NOT gay CC.Sorry.My bad.
9 September 2007
at 1:15 p.m.
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guesswho (Anonymous) says…
In response to the first few posts - reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw:
Dear God, save me from your followers.
9 September 2007
at 1:52 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
There's nothing “normal” about going to a megachurch, sitting in a daze while the pastor gives his or her sermon, repeating the catchphrases like a drone and not actually thinking about or analyzing your faith or what it means, RT.
You're such a bitter, cold person.
9 September 2007
at 2:21 p.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
~I'm sorry that I missed church…~
~But I was too busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian.~
Quite possibly one of the funniest bumper stickers out there.
9 September 2007
at 3:01 p.m.
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Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…
numbers, I have to ask you:have you ever wore a poly-cotton blend? Eaten shellfish? If so, you are doomed to hell to unless you repent now.
–
Ummm…only if he's a hasidic jew who still mistakenly follows Mosaic Law.
9 September 2007
at 3:07 p.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
Actually, Jesus never actually abolished the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic laws. In fact, a vision by Peter that occured quite some time after the “ascension” of Jesus involved an angel offering him a plate containing only forbidden foods. He refused, claiming that he did not partake of such things. The angel then instructed him that it was a symbol that the “word of God” was not just for the Jews, but for everyone. For the sinners, the ill, the sodomites and even the republicans. But at no time is there any actual references in the bible that claim that it is now ok to eat pork stuffed with oysters, wrapped in veal and then smothered in cheese.
People commonly cite the reference of “It is finished” which was the last words uttered by the supposed messiah. It is strange on how three words somehow gets translated into “All that Old Testament stuff no longer applies, as well as a bunch of that new testament stuff.”. And then people pick and choose what it applied to and what didn't.
9 September 2007
at 4:40 p.m.
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dorothyhr (Dorothy Hoyt-Reed) says…
Oh well, ragingbear, we know you have a direct line to the messiah. We all bow to you.
9 September 2007
at 6:51 p.m.
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unclenate (Anonymous) says…
Let me get this right. The Metropolitan Community Church's core values:
- Acceptance of any sexual identity
- No restriction on personal behavior
- Generic commitment to peace, love, happiness
Or were we talking about Hollywood, the United Way, presidential candidates, or the Lawrence Journal World? Without any doctrinal distinctions, I fail to see how this organization - as with many others - qualifies as a church. Is it enough to simply drop the 'G' word?
9 September 2007
at 7:51 p.m.
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gayokay (Anonymous) says…
Using God to justify one's own intolerance and hate of people one doesn't understand is what drove me out of so called mainstream denominations. Love and acceptance and a church filled with the Holy Spirit are what keep me going back to MCC Topeka.
Far be from me to speak for a whole church but according to pastor Rogers, MCC Topeka is not about being a gay church it is about ministring to the outcast. Kinda like Jesus did. So called Christians who think their own poop doesn't stink and place a hierarchy on sins are so mislead. God made me gay so how can it be a sin.
I must take issue with the comment in the article from Mr. McHenry. He claims that Homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity. Find me one red letter in the Bible where Jesus speaks about Homosexuality. Still searching? You won't find any comment from Jesus about gay people. You will however find many instances of Jesus hanging with the outcasts of society including literally hanging on the cross between criminals.
9 September 2007
at 7:52 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
It doesn't say anything about “No restriction on personal behavior,” unclenate. Where are you getting that assumption?
9 September 2007
at 8:58 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
” I fail to see how this organization - as with many others - qualifies as a church.”
Well, apparently they get together in the same place and time every week and worship God. Seems pretty Churchy to me.
9 September 2007
at 10:21 p.m.
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foxfire (Anonymous) says…
Us christians are not the guilty party. We are all guilty of sin. Yes, God does love each of us but he does not like some of our actions. He also tells us to repent and change our ways if they do not conform to his teachings. I think this is where the two sides part. I am not perfect and I know that. I work on the things that I know are wrong in his eyes. I don't try to find a group of people that will tell me it is all right because we all are like you. If this were true, felons, rapists, thiefs, child molestesters and on and on I could go could form their own churches and claim all is ok with God because we are all alike and this makes it ok. Just because your are in what is believed to be a church and they are saying you are ok in our eyes does not make it right. Read the bible and study it. The answers are there. Sometimes we just don't like the answers he gives us!
9 September 2007
at 10:30 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Unclenate states that:
“Let me get this right. The Metropolitan Community Church's core values:
- No restriction on personal behavior
- Generic commitment to peace, love, happiness”
I would appreciate this person showing me where MCC core values are listed as he/she states.. Just as in the case of Jesus condeming homosexuals….neither one exsists. Talking about something we know nothing about can be so very hurtful to others. Why do we continue such a practice? Is this being loving towards one another? Jesus says to love our neighbors not to persecute them! And my commitment to peace, love and happiness is anything but “Generic”. My commitment to peace, love and happiness is based on the presence of God and Jesus in my life and nothing less.
When are we going to stop presuming that we can determine what is “truly” in someone else's heart? Only God knows that, not any human! Just maybe that is why Jesus tells us not to “judge others”. Makes alot more sense to me now.
If you want to “experience God's unconditional love”, just visit our church once and you will decease with the hateful, hurtful, condeming, and damaging comments and will then know what you are indeed talking about.
We are a loving and caring community of faith who loves the Lord our God, with all our mind, soul and hearts. And we practice what we preach.
Being gay is indeed a choice. It is God's choice for me and I choose to be part of a church which celebrates God's choices not one who condemns it.
9 September 2007
at 10:41 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear foxfire,
The Bible (Old Testament) also tells us to kill our neighbor if they don't attend church. Did you know that? Well it indeed does command us to do that. Well I dont think you would consider such a thing. Or at least I hope not.
I have spent the last five years of my life studying the Bible in the best seminaries in our country. The Bible proves to me that God loves me and celebrates who God made me to be. I would be glad to share with you the scriptures which prove God's love for all us LGBT people. To include us with rapists and killers are nothing but judgement on your part. I know one gay couple who have been together for 56 years. They adopted a child who is one of the most loving people I know. They both fought in World War II together to protect this country in which we live. They give to numerous charities and lead productive and blessed lives where they worship God and serve God. Why does their loving, committed relationship inspire so much hatred in so many people. That is something I will never understand. And to compare them to rapists? Beyond belief.
9 September 2007
at 10:46 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Jude 1:7-8 is not about homosexuality. If you would like to contact me, I can tell you why. Or visit www.MCCChurch.org and click on the quicklink “homosexuality and the bible” and read what the scholars have to say. Don't feel bad, I used to think the same thing. Now I know better. And I thank God every day for revealing the “truth” to me and so many others. Bless you on your journey.
9 September 2007
at 10:48 p.m.
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foxfire (Anonymous) says…
I think you need to read the bible. No where in it does it say that being gay or lesbian is a choice. It does say that God does not like this type of behavior. We all can take tidbits of scripture and make it sound as if what we are doing is ok.If you read it in the context it is supposed to be read in, well, you don't feel as good about yourself do you?
9 September 2007
at 11:01 p.m.
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foxfire (Anonymous) says…
revpatrick,
Referring to the rapists and the others is not saying you are like them and I apologize. It was an analogy. I believe we both don't approve of their behavior but what I am saying is this: Just because a group of people are saying we are different from the others in this world and we accept this behavior does not make it right with God. If you have studied the bible then you know of several instances where God punished groups for this type of action. As for your example of the couple, there are many people on this earth that live good lives just like the couple you mentioned that will never see the gates of heaven. Good works does not get you there. You know that by all of your studies. There is only one way and if you don't go through Him you just as well forget it.
9 September 2007
at 11:35 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Oh, we are “Native Americans”, in harmony with nature and the environment but we machine gun whales!
Will you accept us?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,2…
9 September 2007
at 11:41 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Foxfire,
Have you studied the original language in which the books of the Bible were written? If you have you would know that the scriptures you use to bash others, truly do not refer to homosexuality. Why do you continue to persecute and judge others over this? Jesus plainly instructs us not to “judge” others. Why do you continue to judge? Why do you follow the scriptures you choose to belive in and ignore the rest? Jesus says to love others. NOT just the heterosexuals. Yes, I do read the Bible and have studied it full time for the last five years. Foxfire, the Bible also condons slavery. Do you condon slavery? The Bible must be read and interpreted in the context of the time it was written. How do you choose what you believe in and what you dont? Who chooses for you? ANd how do they select literal interpretations in which to follow and which not to follow? I ask you to think about this.
9 September 2007
at 11:46 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Marion,
You lost me. What does people machine gunning whales have to do with our right to worship God? I dont see the connection. Why does it bother you so that we choose to accept God's unconditional love?
9 September 2007
at 11:52 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
I am so certain that “God” so loves those who machine gun whales that I may just biosolid myself.
10 September 2007
at 7:02 a.m.
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ksmom (Anonymous) says…
The bible is a joke. If you read the preface, you will know the bible was written by men who set out to impress the great Queen of England. Christianity is a joke. Her highness merely had a batch of butt kissers transcribe for her what she wanted in order to rule over her kingdom. She then sent out “Christians” throughout the world, killing, maiming, and enslaving all people of other religions. Christianity is about power, money, killing, greed, and corporate bullying. And this is all done in the name of Christianity! How wonderful to follow man made religion.
10 September 2007
at 8:23 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear Marion,
Historically, people have used the bible to condon slavery, to condon treating women as 2nd class citizens and as property (even denying them the right to vote). Now the focus is on treating LGBT people as less than humans. When will we wake up and see these patterns? I pray that this article helps to enlighten those who bash and also those who are bashed and in the name of God and Jesus Christ. My God is a loving God who doesnt condemn but celebrates who I was made to be.
10 September 2007
at 8:46 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
And the Christian apostasy continues.
10 September 2007
at 9 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Hey, REV!
Got some baaaad news for you there, Bud!
The Bible DOES condone slavery, tells you that homosexuality is an abomination. tell you when and how you may reape women, tells you who you make take into slavery, tells you under waht circumstacnes you may kill unbelievers and when to kill your children
Your loving God destroys entire cities when he has a headache, wipes out firstborns on a whim and sends people to wander around in the desert just because he can.
You people have simply made up this “loving god” thing to soften up the TRUTH, which is that your God is an angry god, full of hate and retribution, relying on fear and guilt to keep his followers in line.
Thanks but no thanks.
You all have a “blessed day”, you hear?
10 September 2007
at 9:09 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Go here:
http://www.evilbible.com/
10 September 2007
at 9:58 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
Scenebooster I don't have all day to stay here on the blog, but I will try to answer your questions. The arguments about shellfish and mixed fiber clothing carry no weight and people have discussed that before here and nobody liked their answer. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by the works that were demanded in the old testament. In Hebrews, we read that under Christ there is a new and better covenant. Therefore the old mosaic law is abolished and finished with Christ on the cross. “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.” (Heb 9:22) In the old testament they were to use innocent animals without spot or blemish to cover their sins, but they had to continue to do that. However, Christ came and died on the cross, shed his sinless, innocent blood in order to cover the sin of man and establish a new covenant where we can have access into God's presence by the covering of Jesus. The old covenant is finished because there can be nothing added to the finished product. I believe that the word of God is “God-breathed” (2 Tim 3:16) so even if Jesus didn't quote that he was against homosexuality doesn't mean he agrees with it because other portions of scripture do. In John 1 it says the “Word was with God, and the Word was God…(verse 14) and the word became flesh (Jesus) and made his dwelling among us.” Therefore if the scripture is God-breathed and Jesus is the word, then what it says whether it is in red or not is what Jesus teaches on the subject.
And since I believe adultery, homosexuality, murder, etc are sins, I don't partake in them. And if I speak against something doesn't mean I don't love the people in this world. I have no problem talking to people and loving them but if I'm asked what I think on lifestyle choices, I won't cover up what I believe hoping that people will think of me as a loving person. If I love somebody and believe that what they are doing will lead them to hell, then you better believe that I will talk to them and speak up. I believe the word of God and Jesus with all my heart, so sitting back in a moral relativist stance is not what I will do, because that really isn't love. I discipline my child because I love him, I don't accept everything he does as okay. And yes, I do believe that God can judge this world just fine by Himself. However he gave us the great commission, not the suggestion. He wants us to make disciples and judge ourselves in the same way we judge others in order to not be hypocritical. That is what the judge not verse is saying. It is not God's way of saying have a free-for-all and do what you want and nobody should say anything about it.
Fire away… Love ya.
10 September 2007
at 10:05 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
If the Bible is “God breathed”, God should wash his mouth out with soap!
10 September 2007
at 11:24 a.m.
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TheOriginalCA (Anonymous) says…
Please forgive Christians, they are only human and they often forget that they are human.
…”I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”…
–Mahatma Gandhi
10 September 2007
at 12:41 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
Unconditional love warns you about danger. The 10 commandments and the other don'ts in the bible are like God placing an X over a landmine. Don't step here He warns. God has given us this law because he loves us. The end result of Sin is pain and suffering.
10 September 2007
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
Homosexual relationships are absolutely a choice. You choose who you have sex with.
10 September 2007
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Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…
:”I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”:
Mahatma Gandhi
===========
Other Gandhi quotes:
“I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing”
Gandhi on the Holocaust: “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.”
10 September 2007
at 1:05 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
I understand why you stubbornly insist that homosexuality is not a choice. Then you can blame God. Adam also tried blaming God his sin.
10 September 2007
at 1:17 p.m.
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mick (Anonymous) says…
I would like to see a tag-team mud wresting contest between the MCC and the Westboro Baptist Church. Any way that could be arranged?
10 September 2007
at 1:32 p.m.
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EireishHawk (Anonymous) says…
Kick, Kick, Dust, Dust, bye-bye.
10 September 2007
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OrangeCat5 (Anonymous) says…
“The Rev. Andrew McHenry - a pastor of Maple Hill Community Congregational Church and a member of the Topeka Evangelical Area Ministries - said MCC has its strength of offering warmth, affirmation and unconditional acceptance. But, he said, there is a major difference between what that church and evangelical Protestants, most mainline Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe.
“We tend to interpret the Bible more conservatively, and we believe the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus and with Christian teachings,” he said. ”
This is the thing that drive me nuts. The ljw *always* finds some way to include an opposing view whenever there is a positive article about LGBT issues. I suppose they're remembering their lessons of 'good journalism' to have an alternate opinion, but it's *never* (or even if I'm genorous, *rarely*) done with any other articles. In the Saturday Pulse with articles every week about (usually) Christian/church activities, there's no opposing view from area atheists or other religions saying “well, that's a Christian thing and it's not compatible with our beliefs”. Or articles about childcare? No opposing view from people who don't have kids. Be fair, LJW/News6—find opposing opinions for all your “comparative” articles or stop doing it for only LGBT issues.
10 September 2007
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
Can one person have a relationship with another without making the choice to do so?
10 September 2007
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Well, if you really want to get into what the bible teaches (or realistically many other religions,) sexual acts (in any form: hetero, homo, even thoughts, etc) are a selfish indulgence of humanity for any other reason than reproduction. That's why monks and other deeply spiritual people are abstinant, and sometimes even castrate themselves. The body is to be a temple of God, and to “be like Jesus,” you shouldn't be dwelling on or giving into any sexual thoughts, but instead striving to make yourself as much of humble servant to your peers as possible. I think so many people use Jesus as an excuse for whatever they'd like to condone. I know no one is perfect, and I'm not dissing homosexuality, but if you really want to get down to “hat jesus would do,” I think you're all a bit off.
10 September 2007
at 2:32 p.m.
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gayokay (Anonymous) says…
Sexual orientation is inborn and not a choice. It is my opinion that those who insist that there is a conscious choice made have latent attractions to members of their own gender or may have an orientation of bisexual. Perhaps some of these choice advocates have even experimented and decided that they were more attracted to the opposite sex or are so conflicted that they loath themselves for their same sex attractions.
I certainly did not make a choice to be discriminated against, bashed, threatened, or quite possibly killed for who I love. God made me gay and for me to be anything else would be a sin.
10 September 2007
at 3:23 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear Logicsound04,
You claim that being gay is a “choice”. Do you recall when you made a choice to be heterosexual? I think I know the answer to that one. You didn't make a choice, you merely are heterosexual. Well, I didnt make a choice either! I am homosexual. I am gay, proud and celebrate who God has made me. I am sorry others have such a problem with it.
Question for you? Who would make a choice to be someone who “can't get legally married, lives in fear of being bashed, can loose a job if their sexual orientation is discovered, has no hosital visitation rights with a partner of 50 years, cant buy a house together, cant adopt children in most states, can get banished from there families, gets repeated bashed on blogs like this,etc etc. ? I don't know anyone who would choose such a life if there was an option.
The Bible has been used as a weapon against slaves, women and others. Why can't we see Jesus message and see that he offered love to everyone. He fed the thousands, not only the 90% which were heterosexual. Jesus love is for everyone. I feel sad at the hatred by so many who call themselves Christian surrounding the fact that we at MCC choose to accept it.
I grew up fundamentalist. So I know what I am talking about. I used to believe the way that the fundamentalists believe and believed such as strongly as they do. But due to life experience and years of seminary education, I now know that God loves me. I give thanks daily for that.
10 September 2007
at 3:40 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
You did make a choice. I made a choice to be with my wife. I have made the choice to not have sex with other women. I want to sometimes, but I don't. Simply feeling a certain way is not a reason to justify doing it. God is not going to accept this excuse “God you made me this way and you made that woman is so beautiful, It must be your fault because what else could I do?.” Gay men are really no different than men who cheat. The temptation comes, and you have a choice. You can resist or you can give in. Just relax, relax don't do it.
10 September 2007
at 3:43 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I just love all of non-specific “Christian” views of some of these churches. Free love, everyone! Jesus love is for everyone.. excepting that he scolded those who sinned with no remorse, and forgave only those who repented to him, saying, “you are forgiven, go and sin no more.” Do you remember that? Do you remember that he overturned the tables in the temple b/c people were using it as a marketplace? Christianity is not about “Jesus died for our sins, therefore we don't have to worry about anything we do, b/c he loves us.” That's not exactly along the lines of what Jesus taught (since people seem to be driving in the “Jesus point.”) Its not really an “I'm OK, you're OK” scenario. You can't just say “Jesus love me, and I love him” and then live your life however you please. A murder can't just say, “I was born with a serial-killer mindset. God made me that way. He loves me. I like to chop up people, but its OK, b/c God love me.” Actually you can say whatever you want to, you can say God is a tucan with a voice like Yanni.. but if you're trying to base your actions on the actual scripture of Jesus and his teachings, you may want to re-evaluate what you're talking about.
10 September 2007
at 4:41 p.m.
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gayokay (Anonymous) says…
Here we go again…Same old clap trap about comparing gay people to prostitutes and murderers.
Look, I just want to live my life in peace with my committed loving same sex partner of ten years and have the same equal rights as any other tax paying American. My relationship with Jesus is between Him and I. But I'll say this much. I am thankful to have the support of Reverand Patrick and MCC Topeka. I know love when I experience it. The so called Christians on this blog know not what they do and would be just as effective if they were holding a picket sign with the Phelps Cult.
10 September 2007
at 4:56 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I knew someone was going to misread my last comment and make it about gay people. I was referring to the typical non-specific “Christian” basis that so many churches use to “make it a church.” I only brought it up, b/c the MCCC was pressing it so much. As I said before in my previous comment, I am not bashing homosexuals. And in reference to Americorps saying Christianity has little to do with God.. where do you think the word “Christianity” comes from? I am not against those who chose to have their own spiritual path. I am open to all faiths. However, what I was pointing out is the need for so many people to use Jesus as their excuse or basis for belief, when they really don't even have the story straight. I would assume you don't use examples of the teachings of Jesus to back-up your beliefs, right? I have nothing against that! I never said I did. I was merely making the case against churches that use the Gospel to feel better about themselves and make them feel like they belong to a church, when they're really just picking and choosing what to acknowledge.
10 September 2007
at 4:57 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
First of all I do apologize to logicsound4 as her/his comment is not the one I was resonding to! I am sorry logicsound04 as there truly is logic in your statements and I agree with you. Next time I will be more careful.
Americorps brings up a GREAT point !!!! The Bible is not a perfect document. That may shock many but it is true. There are contradictions all through the Bible. There are also historical events which it states that occured which did not. There are also instances when humans convinced God to change God's mind. Now that will be controversial.
So if God can change God's mind and the last book of the Bible which we read was written 1,900 years ago or so, how do we know now how God feels? Well, I go by Jesus instructions of the greatest commandment. To love God with all your strength, heart, soul and mind. And the 2nd..is to love your neighbor as yourself. That's what I live by.
And all this talk about rapists, etc. There is no love involved when a rape occurs. How could that compare to someone who is homosexual? I don't get that.
And yes Jesus did get angry. He got very angry and overturned tables because so many were missing the point of God's love and respect for God's temple. mmmmmmmmmmm……….. I get angry about that also.
10 September 2007
at 5:03 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
I want to take the time out and thank the numerous people who are willing to have this discussion and who treat each other with respect (even those who sometimes arent very nice)!!! Thank you. It shows that you are open minded and reminds me of Jesus. Jesus listened to others. Jesus treated all he ministered to with respect. Jesus loved the outcast and the marginalized. Look who Jesus spent most of his time with….!
We have so much that we can learn from each other if we just listen.
Again, thank you.
10 September 2007
at 6:30 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
And then took the last train for the coast.
10 September 2007
at 6:51 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
The one thing I've noticed on this forum is how eager people are to pick a fight over the littlest things that someone else says. Do you really have nothing else to deal with in your life that this makes you so angry? I think you're taking whatever I said WAY too much to heart, and I'm pretty sure I've said several times that I have nothing against other religions and beliefs, but as always, find it insulting (as a Christian myself) that some churches only jump on the unconditional love wagon and forget about the other things that Jesus taught. I say Christianity has everything to do with God just b/c Christ IS God to Christians. You are so quick to jump all over anything I say, that you can't try to see where I'm coming from (and then you'll say, “you don't see where anyone else is coming from.” excepting that I do - I'm just debating the subject. there's a difference between debating, and ripping someone apart without studying the entire context of their side.) You may not believe the bible, but if a religion uses a certain book as the basis for their beliefs, wouldn't you agree that they should follow it wholey? Isn't the Koran studied to its full extent? Do Buddhists not follow the teachings as closely as possible in order to reach enlightenment? Maybe you could read what people write without pure cynicism, and maybe YOU could open your mind to what other people have to say.
10 September 2007
at 7:04 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
But what if there ARE different interpretations in religion and God considers each valid? Why do we as humans continue to insist that there is always one interpretation and that our interpretation is the only correct one? Why do WE continue to attempt to limit God?
Myself, I have also studied Buddhism and incoporate many Buddhist practices into my personal Christian spiritual development. That doesnt mean that I am not fully Christian. It means that just maybe God is represented in different forms and in different ways and I can learn from others and their faith beliefs. I love to learn from others and thank God for the diversity of faith which exists.
10 September 2007
at 7:35 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Revpatrick, I appreciate your approach to discussion, and admire your exploration of faiths. From what I've learned, the differences between denominations of Christianity IS the various interpretations of doctrine. However, there is always depth to what people believe, with moral paths and purpose.. and it is usually centered around the same teachings. Its always just bothered me when people take the “good stuff” and then forget about the paths of living. I admire other religions as well. Sometimes I think there is too little of spirituality in religions, not enough self-examination.. but that goes into another story.
10 September 2007
at 7:45 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
Revpatrick, your last point is one of your best. I personally haven't decided if I believe in God, there is evidence both for and against, and I don't feel there should be a rush to decide. If there is a God, He would want me to make my own decisions after careful consideration, right?
The rest of you Biblethumpers a la gogoplata, parkay, the rest of the clan of the cave bear, listen:
It is not a choice to be gay. It *is* a choice to engage in sexual relations like that, but making that choice is as moot as you making a choice to sleep with someone of the opposite sex: you just don't think about it, do you? Being gay isn't entirely about sex. It's about making the intimate, emotional connection (LOVE) with someone who you can spend the rest of your life with. I can't help it if I can make that connection with men instead of women, just as it wasn't a choice for you to make that connection with women instead of men.
As taxpaying citizens in a monogamous, committed relationship that harms no one, a gay couple should be allowed to share the same legal rights and privileges as heterosexual couples.
Against gay marriage? don't get one.
10 September 2007
at 9:01 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04
I do understand what you think are the basic concepts. But what I the basic concepts are is different from what you think. Romans chapter 1 gives us a laundry list of sins that human beings are given to. Fortunately not all human beings are given to all the sins in that list. Unfortunately all human beings are given to some of the sins listed. Who among us can claim to never have told a lie? Every human being I have ever talked with about this would admit to being a liar at one time or another in their life. So you could say that we as humans are given to lying. Some people are worse than others. One man may be given to lusting after and/or having sex with women that he is not married to while another man is given to lusting after and/or having sex other men. This is sin and it involves a choice. At the moment we are presented with the temptation we have the choice to resist the temptation or we can choose to give in to it. Because God created the female for the male to be joined together in marriage that relationship is blessed by God. All others are not. I didn't have to choose to desire a woman, that is the way God made us. I do have to choose not to give into the temptation to lust after and/or have sex with women other than my wife. So when a man chooses to act on the feelings he has toward a woman he is not married to, or another man, it is sin. God made the rules and he has given us the ability to choose to follow them or to choose to reject them. This is the Biblical position. If you reject the Bible or simply choose to disobey it you are free to act however you want. But you cannot honestly say that the Bible is true and Homosexuality is acceptable. Matthew chapter 4 gives a great example how Jesus dealt with temptation and James 1:13-17 shows how sin happens. It always involves a choice on our part to stray from Gods clear instruction.
10 September 2007
at 9:07 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“I meant to say the CHURCH has little to do with God, nor Christianity, most have abandoned God long ago in favor of power, control and money.”
The 'church catholic' ?
10 September 2007
at 9:14 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear Gogoplata,
I appreciate your comments but the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. If you want to “truly” understand what the bible has to say about homosexuality you can visit our MCC denomination website at www.MCCChurch.org and click on the button which says “The Bilble and Homosexuality”. You will be able to then understand the truth. This information will clearly teach you that the Bible does not condemn LGBT relationships and what the scriptures people like you quote are truly about. I invite you to check it out. And dont feel bad as I believed the way you do until I was enlightened 7 years ago. I was just as adamant as you. I was just as passionate as you. Now I know that God loves me just the way that God made me and I celebrate that each and every day. I even quit my CPA career of 20 years and went to seminary to learn more of this truth. Thank you God.
10 September 2007
at 9:21 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
Gogoplata obviously didn't read my post. There's more to being gay than what you initially believe. If God didn't want me to be gay, he wouldn't have made me gay.
10 September 2007
at 9:30 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Lust or anything which separates us from God is indeed a sin. That is true in the heterosexual or homosexual department. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. Just ask Jimmy Carter…LOL ! Lust is a sin. Homosexuality is not lust. It is about people loving one another. Homosexuality is not a sin.
In my monogamous 22 year gay relationship, the only person I wanted sexually was my husband !
10 September 2007
at 9:41 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Americorps,
I agree with you totally. My relationship with God is one between God and me ! No-one knows what is in my heart except for God. At the MCC, we celebrate our differences and strive to learn from one another. By sharing our differences, we grow in our relationship with God.
10 September 2007
at 9:43 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“But what if there ARE different interpretations in religion and God considers each valid?”
What if different interpretations are mutually exclusive? Is there more than one 'truth'?
How is it possible to say that different faith systems would have equal validity (ie., 'ways to God/salvation'), when there are internal constraints within individuals faiths, such as Christianity. Either Jesus was who He said He was, or was a liar and fraud - “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
And what of this issue of hell? Jesus spent more than a couple of moments warning of the need to avoid this very actual fate. Indeed, even the high priest was told that he would have to be 'born again' in order to saved. If Jesus is all love and flowers and good things, what of his warnings of a dire fate, of tears shed for a lost Jerusalem?
If there are more than one, often mutually exclusive, ways to God, then the nature of a pure, holy God is corrupted.
No, what we see here is not a pursuit for actual truth, but the pursuit of palliatives to ease the mind from the hard work of dealing with sin, and the human sin nature.
10 September 2007
at 9:53 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
americorps - 'Where two or more gather in my name, there am I'
'And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching.'
And for those who would like to inform us what the 'church catholic' is? (Hint - 'bride of Christ')
10 September 2007
at 10:01 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
You reject things that are perhaps a little too important to reject so easily out of hand. I would remind of the hard answer that will come to many that reject what they do not like - 'depart from me, I never knew you.'
10 September 2007
at 10:02 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
75,
One of my favorite scriptures is “there is only one way to God through me”. I interpret that to mean that there is only one way to God and that is through what Jesus teaches ! Remember the greatest 2 commandments…..Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself. All the religions listed earlier are based on love….mmmmmmm. And many of my neighbors are buddhist, catholic, protestant, etc…….
If you take that passage literally like you are doing, then that would mean that Moses, Abraham and all the others did not go to “heaven” because they didnt know Jesus ! That's not the Jesus I believe in !
10 September 2007
at 10:10 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Then, why was it necessary for Jesus, the spotless Son of God, to die on a cross? There are quotes from prayer in the Garden on the night preceding that would clearly suggest that there was only one reason, one way.
Your last paragraph is either poor theology, or a straw man to suggest something that I have not. A short trip through Genesis would deal with that.
If you don't take many passages literally (certainly not all, but most issues are clearly expressed in a literal fashion) - you risk losing the true meaning that is clearly being communicated.
10 September 2007
at 10:26 p.m.
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purplesage (Anonymous) says…
Wonder how the Metros would receive, say, a traditional Roman Catholic or a Southern Baptist who stopped in to visit? I have a suspicion that everyone would be pretty uncomfortable.
So … for all this talk of tolerance, acceptance and diversti, is it so? Or are those who are absolutists intolerable?
The standard of how one “feels” is a notoriously inaccurate and undependable gauge of truth. I don't see how the claim can be made that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality, as well as other forms of sexual sin. It plainly does. The Metropolitan Church is not a church in the biblical sense. It has to creatively cut and paste the scriptures to justify its doctrinal stance which is clearly unbiblical.
10 September 2007
at 10:44 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Uh, Rev, should I follow this Bible verse if I am a Christian?:
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
I mean, this reads a whole lot like a fairly firm thing????
Whattaya think, there, Rev?
Do it or not?
10 September 2007
at 10:47 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
These folks go to this fellowship, they feel “embraced”, “loved” and “accepted”. Those are great things to have in your life, but they do not legitimize every choice you are making when you are also ignoring God's commands in the name of human love. This is a fellowship of people who desire to be connected to God and to each other, but they are doing it while they neglect serious issues of sexual morality. I'm glad for what they have found, but what they have found is not a Christian church. When you ignore God's commands in the name of being more accepting of the person next to you, you are placing that person ABOVE God. If God is Lord, then place Him above your personal agenda. These people have made themselves more important than God. As it says in Romans chapter one about the acceptance of homosexuality: “they have worshipped the creature rather than the creator.”
10 September 2007
at 10:59 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
I find it depressing that so many people see this as a purely condemned-or-accepted proposition. It is anything but that.
The notions that 'God made me this way' are deceptive to a certain extent - a more accurate view, imo, would be that 'God allowed you to be this way'. In considering the depth of connection with which human sexuality is so intertwined with the human psyche, it is absolutely no wonder that people have no real view of it as being anything but natural or normal to their experience. This is no different than the sometimes overwhelming libido that ensnares many heterosexuals. This does not mean, however, that these strong aspects of our (sinful) human nature must not or cannot be wrested.
I have the greatest sympathy and empathy for those that must cope with the powerful [mindset, predisposition, affliction, whatever] of homosexuality. To grasp the clear commands and declarations of God leaves a difficult and in many ways hopeless view of a potentially lifelong struggle. Indeed, for a Christian struggling to cope with this dilemma, this battle is likely one of the most illustrative of the need for the saving grace of God through Christ Jesus.
However, to twist Scripture in some ill-fated attempt to deny the Word is a frightful thing indeed.
'If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. '
—Hebrews 10:26-31
10 September 2007
at 10:59 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
Oldenuf, that is strictly *your* opinion, not God's. What do they say about people who claim to know God's word better than God himself?
You can't use religion to gauge or define morality anyway, since that would base things off God's opinion. You can't base morality off of someone's opinion, even if it's God's. It has to be whether it's right or wrong, and nothing sensible has told us that being gay is wrong, sooooooooooooo…..
It's a great thing not a lot of sensible people would take your opinion to heart.
10 September 2007
at 11:51 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
God needs a good mouth wash.
11 September 2007
at 12:17 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
'I have blind faith, but not deaf and dumb.' ?
The 'baiting' is not cheap - it's the heart of what I see as the error in your thinking. Yes, you may have an opinion, but I find it wanting in the sense of your rather vast dismissal of 'Churches', yet you don't recognize the concept of the 'church catholic'. Forgive me for saying so, but in light of your past abuses of Scripture, and your rather antagonistic view of other believers - my opinion is that I'm reading comments of a fraud. Just my opinion however - you have to work out your own salvation, to paraphrase an apostle.
11 September 2007
at 8:18 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
To the people who “claim” that the MCC is not church:
7 years ago I would have probably said the same thing, so I don't blame you. My personal journey led me there. I have had the opportunity to “experience” the MCC and since I have been present there and now am the Pastor of one, I can testify that it is indeed church and much more. Three are “social” aspects to any church and anyone who thinks differently needs to rethink that. We embrace the social aspects along with the purpose of being there to worship & praise God.
Even the reporter who did this story commented that she had not been in a “church” that had so much Spirit and life in her entire life. So, if you question whether it is “church” or not, I invite you to come and see for yourself.
11 September 2007
at 8:25 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Marion,
I read your quote from Deuteronomy about destroying towns. Jesus did away with the old laws and their requirements and brought with him the new law of forgiveness. It talks all about it in the New Testament.
11 September 2007
at 8:31 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
OldEnuf,
I appreciate your passion for the Word of God. I am passionate about it also as I have taken the last 5 years to attend seminary and learn more. I invite you to go to our mcc denomination website www.MCCChurch.org and click on the “Homosexuality and the Bible” link. God doesnt condemn who we are as LGBT people and it explains why that is true. Since it is evident you want to follow the Word of God and I give thanks for that, please take the time to take a look.
11 September 2007
at 8:32 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Logicsound04,
You are absolutely awesome !!! Thank you for all your contributions !!!
11 September 2007
at 8:38 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Americorps,
You're awesome also ! I can see why you make the comments you do regarding corporate church. The church historically has abused what God has given them and done hideous things in the name of God. And continues to do so. Killing people because they have different faith beliefs is clearly not what God intended. For example, that is going on today in Jamaica as it is the most homophobic country statistically in the world. They are killing LGBT people. I have a friend whose brother was killed because of this.
I can just speak for me personally though. I don't want to give up on the church as a whole because I know that it can change and it changes every day toward what God intended.
11 September 2007
at 10:43 a.m.
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lunacydetector (Anonymous) says…
Area church prides itself on diversity, unacceptance of God's rules.
11 September 2007
at 11:01 a.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
This article isn't about the Catholic Church, lunacy.
11 September 2007
at 11:10 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
I checked out the link on the website. And people accuse conservative Christians of interpreting the bible to suit their needs. Wow…
11 September 2007
at 11:23 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Rev:
What happened, God start taking his Prozac?
11 September 2007
at 11:32 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Marion,
There are many instances recorded in the Bible of 1.) either God changing or 2.) human's interpretation of God changing. I tend to believe that it is a combination of both.
After all, we are made in the image of God. So I like to believe that we change and we grow.
If Prozac helps, pass the bottle!
11 September 2007
at 11:35 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Craigers,
Don't we all interepret the Bible to suit our needs? Seems to be prevalent just from the conversations here. I like the response Jesus gave when the disciples asked the greatest commandment. “Love the Lord thy God with all your strength, heart, mind, & soul”. The 2nd, “Love your neighbor as yourself” I try to live by those words. It's pretty hard to misinterpret those commandments in any language.
11 September 2007
at 11:45 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Amen Logicsound… that's it in a nutshell !!!!! Very well put!
11 September 2007
at 11:47 a.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
Dear Gogoplata,
I appreciate your comments but the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. If you want to “truly” understand what the bible has to say about homosexuality you can visit our MCC denomination website at www.MCCChurch.org and click on the button which says “The Bilble and Homosexuality”. You will be able to then understand the truth. This information will clearly teach you that the Bible does not condemn LGBT relationships and what the scriptures people like you quote are truly about. I invite you to check it out. And dont feel bad as I believed the way you do until I was enlightened 7 years ago. I was just as adamant as you. I was just as passionate as you. Now I know that God loves me just the way that God made me and I celebrate that each and every day. I even quit my CPA career of 20 years and went to seminary to learn more of this truth. Thank you God.
I understand that this is how you understand the Bible. It is not how I understand it. I also have some seminary credits under my belt and I disagree with you on your interpretation of the scriptures dealing with homosexuality. I guess there is a day coming when we will both know who is right on this one with out any doubts. But I am very confident where I stand right now.
11 September 2007
at noon
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear Gogoplata,
You rock! I respect you very much! Also glad to hear that you were blessed with having the opportunity to attend seminary. Awesome isnt it !
Let me thank you for your kindness and patience in regard to this matter. A couple of weeks ago I used the scripture that states “Love is patient and Love is kind!” and you certainly represent that.
Also, I admire your passion.
And we can agree to disagree and still love each other, but not persecute one another ! That is a great blessing that I take away from your input. Thank you my friend.
11 September 2007
at 12:29 p.m.
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stuckinlawrence (Anonymous) says…
This is a fine example of a false profit & false church. The Bible also talks about false profits leading Christians away from what's right. A church that accepts this type of behavior is not doing the congregation any favors with God. A church is supposed to help guide it's congregation to live as close as they can to the lives God & Jesus wants us to live. I don't hate anyone, but there's no way that I'm going to condone their behavior either. If the word homosexual isn't in the Bible, what about “un-natural” & “un-clean”? You say God made you this way? You do realize that Satin is very active in our world, and I say Satin made you this way. Homosexuals are not Godly, they are not natural. You can change your ways, but you have to acknowledge that you are not living as God intended. Otherwise, why would he have made Eve for Adam? He didn't make Steve for Adam. Explain that to me false minister.
11 September 2007
at 12:30 p.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
Scenebooster you did every bit as much judging as everybody else on this thread.
11 September 2007
at 1:04 p.m.
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stuckinlawrence (Anonymous) says…
I never said I didn't judge perversion. I don't hate. Hate is such a wasted emotion. But yes, I'll admit that I'm human and I do judge. Thank God & my Lord Jesus Christ for his grace because I'm far from perfect.
11 September 2007
at 1:24 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
StuckinLawrence,
I follow Jesus direction and leave judging up to God. It took me 50 years to realize the importance of that as directed to us by Jesus. Now I understand why Jesus said that. I have attended many funerals of teens and watched as they lie there in the coffin after commiting suicide and as the parents cried over them, wishing they had one more chance with their child (who they had banished from their family when the child trusted them and revealed their sexual orientation). This “judging” has destroyed so many of God's children.
Stuck, I used to think exactly as you. I invite you to check out the web link:
www.jesusmcc.org/resource/notasin.html
This web link explains why homosexuality is NOT a sin. It also talks about what the Bible does and does NOT say about homosexuality. It helped me alot and now I celebrate who God created me to be and give thanks every day.
11 September 2007
at 1:31 p.m.
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tuna (Anonymous) says…
I dunno about the rest of you, but I absolutely LUV satin - so smooth, so silky…Stuckinlawrence, you're a silly, silly goose - if you're gonna use the name of the dark lord, at least get it right! (Satan anyone?) I'm sure that you follow exactly every part of the Christian Bible, eh? Oh wait, just the New testament? Or the Old too? “Unclean?” Women on their periods were considered “unclean” in the Old testament.
11 September 2007
at 2:12 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Americorps,
Great point ! I answer to God and God alone. And all I am asking for is my right to do so !
Thanks,
RevPatrick
11 September 2007
at 2:27 p.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
So since you don't claim to be a Christian, you can judge all you want scenebooster? And then say to others oh no you can't judge? Your ideas are whacked man! Kind of a do what I say not as I do huh?
And revpatrick, when I read the bible I ask God to speak to me. And about 9 times out of 10 I find things that God speaks to me are correction in my life. Not oh this will justify what I believe. I am corrected more often than justified by what I read in the Word of God. Maybe that is a difference.
11 September 2007
at 2:45 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
revpatrick
Yes, good discussion. Jesus did say that the first and greatest commandment was to love God with all of our heart soul mind and strenght and the second was to love our neighbor as ourselves. Most of us could do better on both of those commandments. Obviously I do believe that homosexuality is a sin but I also believe that the government should stay out of peoples personal life. It seems to me that the biggest problem that most homosexuals have with Christianity is in politics, they want to take away individual liberty. We wouldn't have these problems if the government stayed out of the marriage business completely. Even Almighty God himself who truly posseses the ability to force his will on us refrains from doing that and allows people the freedom to live their life the way they want to. Though he does warn us of the consequences of those choices.
11 September 2007
at 2:54 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Gogoplata,
I appreciate your wisdom. Lots of my beef is indeed with politics. Our country was founded based on religous freedoms yet I cant legally marry my partner. The only true reason which exists is that I cant legally marry my partner is based on religion. Go figure????
Whether people like it or not, at least 10% of our military is LGBT (or more). They risk their lives to fight for the freedoms we enjoy yet they cant get married legally. There is indeed no justice in that. One of my favorite gay couples who I love so much, met while serving in World War II. The have been together monogamously and lovingly for 56 years. Yet they will probably die without the benefit of being married legally. That saddens me.
They have paid their taxes, been upstanding citizens, contributed to society for 7 decades yet their rights are denied basic rights based on religous beliefs.
Over the course of 56 years because of this inequality and not being able to file a joint tax return, they have paid HIGHER taxes (as individuals not filing married)! Where are their rights? And again, we are talking about 10% of the American population.
11 September 2007
at 3:13 p.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
This is the meaning of that scripture you try to twist into saying everybody shouldn't judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged means to judge ourselves in the same way we judge others in order to not be hypocritical. If I have a problem with moral choices in other people's lives then I better have a problem with those moral choices in my own life.
11 September 2007
at 3:18 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Some light reading for the 'judge not' crowd:
http://www.kgov.com/docs/JudgeRightly…
11 September 2007
at 3:53 p.m.
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ladysinger43 (Anonymous) says…
Let us all remember that there will be a judgement in the end. Why is everyone fighting over what we all have a different opinion about? The government needs to stay out of the marriage issue because if we can't have prayers in schools (because of the church/state issue) then why are they invading the space of marriage?? I think the true issue of homosexuality needs to be seen in the fact that there are 2 people who love each other, care about each other, and want to share their lives together. who is anyone to judge that?? We are created in the image of Christ and we are to come to him as little children. We must HUMBLE ourselves daily and walk in the light of Christ who gave us the right to be here and walks with me daily. i praise god for MCC Topeka. I am freely able to worship. Whomever it was that said we are not diverse, you need to come visit sometime. We have heterosexual people and we have a growing number of teenagers attending and families as well. You truly need to know something about MCC before you start “judging” who we are and what we follow. We are Christians who gather together to celebrate the life of Christ and the love all of us share together. Hate is such a strong word and it really bothers me that people don't say they “hate” LGBT people. Most of you probably work with someone who is gay and truly don't even know it! You might even live next door to someone and not even know it. Jesus preached and ate among the sinners. Who are you that lust after other men/women and the child molesters and those who drink and drive?? I don't see signs on street corners in Topeka condeming those things. Is that not as much a sin that you are claiming homosexuality is? Why do you all find it so easy to pick on LGBT people? We are sons, daughters, mothers, brothers, sisters, etc. we are normal people. We work hard at our jobs but more than anything, we deserve the same rights that everyone else does. We deserve the right to be equal. marriage is for all people, not just the select few.
11 September 2007
at 5:19 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Hey, REV!
Don't give me that New Testament/New Covenant” garbage!
Dude, I can read……………………………………………………
From the Book of Matthew alone:
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 7:19
“The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: “Let the dead bury the dead.” 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither “receive” the disciples nor “hear” their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few “prophecies” in the Bible that has actually come true). “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.” 10:21
11 September 2007
at 5:20 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9
“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors.” 18:34
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and “cast him into the outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 22:12-13
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
11 September 2007
at 6:54 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
The good rev also said the bible was full of contradictions (not so), and that 'There are also instances when humans convinced God to change God's mind. Now that will be controversial.'
Not controversial. Wrong.
11 September 2007
at 8:34 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear 75,
In Genesis Chapter 18 there is a great story of where Abraham convinced God to change God's mind. Check it out. When you read the gospels, there are different accounts of what happened regarding Jesus birth. There are also contradictions in the gospels regarding who was in the Tomb regarding the resurrection. Check it out. That is a fact. But the point to remember is not the little contradictions and details which so many of us continue to get caught up in and let them keep us from growing but that Jesus is indeed our Savior and our friend.
11 September 2007
at 8:41 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Thank you Americorps for your comment, I appreciate it. I don't let anyone bait me though. I am confident and strong that God and Jesus are loving and forgiving. I have witnessed that in my own life and especially when I worked in hospice as a chaplain. I could write the 3,000 word limit on a hundred of these comments about the many instances where God showed compassion and mercy and grace and Jesus practicing forgiveness, but that isnt going to change someone's mind who sees what they want to see.
Like someone said in an earlier comment. People use the Bible to pull out of it what they want to see. You can do that with not only the Bible but with anything. I love Marion and would treat her with no less love or respect than I do with someone who agrees with me.
11 September 2007
at 8:55 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear all,
I have been thinking about all the rhetoric going back and forth for the last couple of days. The best thing that I can share with you is this:
After a 20 year abscence from any church (because I was relying on others interpretations and teachings of their beliefs) , I found MCC and they helped me discover (for myself) that I am a beloved child of God and that God and Jesus love me exactly the way I am. In fact, they celebrate who I am. I was not brainwashed or mislead. I did the homework myself. That is what we do here at MCC, help others along their own path and spiritual journey.
I can report to you one sure thing……………I have NEVER been happier in my life and now live a life of joy, happiness, and peace. What a transformation. What a blessing I have received.
11 September 2007
at 9:24 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Ok, again I feel that I need to say I am personally not against homosexuality. however, i have extensive teaching of doctrine, religions, the bible, etc.. not just the one faith which has been taught to me since I was a child… and I must say, that link on Homosexuality and the Bible.. I gotta agree with “craigers” response. There is some fancy interpretations going on to make sure it all comes out nice and pretty. I find it humorous how wild they get to twist it so much that people go, “oh, yeah. I totally understand now! it was a historical miscommunication.” haha. oh….. well, whatever you want to tell yourself. Its your faith.
11 September 2007
at 9:32 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Americorps,
Well I appreciate what you did. Thank you. I just came back from MCC General Conference and they are really beefing up efforts in Latin America. Our regional elder, Darlene Garner covers Latin America. Her email address is RevDarleneGarner@MCCchurch.net. You should send her an email and she can better answer your question. MCC has a new worldwide focus and is reaching out now all over the globe. We just opened an MCC in Jamaica (statistically the most homophobic country in the world) and there are around 100 people who attend the weekly worship service. What a blessing ! I am proud to be a member of MCC.
11 September 2007
at 9:41 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Snazzo,
I appreciate that you are respectful. That means alot. There are scholars who agree with you and there are scholars who agree with me. We can agree to disagree. But I appreciate that we do agree with Jesus direction that Love is patient and Love is kind and to be that way with one another.
Like I said in an earlier comment, I have never found such peace in my entire life. I am a testimony and a witness to that. For that I don't need a scholar to validate.
I wish you the best on your journey also.
11 September 2007
at 9:45 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear All,
I would like to tell you what a wonderful experience it is to communicate back and forth and share!
I have learned alot here. Thank you.
11 September 2007
at 9:49 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear All,
A couple of months ago, we started putting the weekly sermons on our website which is www.MCCTopeka.org They are in audio format so you can listen to them.
Our church is blessed with many different preachers and we learn so much by listening to different points of view.
I invite you to listen in and would appreciate any dialogue or comments.
Rev. Patrick
11 September 2007
at 11:11 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Rev. Patrick:
Your web site takes clear Biblical concepts and says “These passages don't say what they clearly do say”. If you think that those rationalizations make any sense whatsoever, then you have deluded yourself. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you, but like I said above: your agenda is above God's commands. That is dangerous territory. God is gracious, but He's not a fool. You cannot just put your ideas ahead of God's authority. “It is an abomination” means just that. All that stuff about dominance and influence was added by your expert to what God said, and the clear data about homosexual sex being “unnatural” is dismissed. You need to ask yourself if you really have faith IN GOD or not. I see you as finding happiness by denying God His rightful place as Lord. You “need” for your choices to be legit, so you accept the way that your expert has distorted God's Word so that you don't have to confront the issues that your sexual dysfunction raises for you.
Trust God. Accept what His Word says, and it will lead you to healing. Living a lie by twisting the Bible is NOT the answer. I'm glad that the members of your church have found “community”, but it is NOT Christianity.
11 September 2007
at 11:29 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear OldEnutf2byurdad,
You clearly believe in the literal translation of the Bible. I don't agree with the literal translation of the Bible. We at MCC believe that one must look at the Bible in the context of the time in which it was written. If one lives by the literal translation, one would be in favor of slavery and the continued degradation of women. Just as through history we have determined that slavery is wrong, we have decided that women are equal, we will all soon realize that LGBT people are loved children of God.
Our church is a Christian church because we follow Jesus teachings. We not only talk about them, we continue to put them into action. Our fatih is strong. Like I said before, Jesus fed the thousands, not only 90% who were heterosexual. Jesus fed all who were hungry and thirsty and willing to accept what God offers.
We are also an inclusive church and don't believe God to be male. We are made in God's image. That image to us is one of love and compassion. Not one of any physical characteristics.
12 September 2007
at 1:42 a.m.
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situveux1 (Anonymous) says…
Anybody that follows a document they admit is full of fallacies is an idiot.
Now to be clear, I accept you for being an idiot and affirm to myself and you that you are an idiot, lest I seem to be bigoted.
12 September 2007
at 8:51 a.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
I take the Bible literally AND I take it in it's historical context. I don't use “context” as a reason for me to revise it. This is what you have done: to dismiss the parts you find difficult, and accept the parts that fit YOU. You need to be willing to wrestle with it. If you are unable to do so, then how will you go to battle against the idea that Jesus was NOT the Son of God and that He DIDN'T actually die on the cross and rise from the grave? I can say “in the context of the times… the death, burial and resurrection was not really true”. If you can dismiss big chunks of scripture in the name of male bigotry, then what keeps a Jew from saying that the message of the Cross is anti-Semitic? In that “context”, the entire story of the Christ could be considered hate speech.
If you dismissively tear down scripture in this cafeteria-style approach to God's word, then don't you cast a shadow on the validity of the Christ himself? If we can just say “the Bible is crap in places”, then what kind of fool would base his entire life on the book? You believe in Jesus. You believe because men inspired by him wrote the gospels. Some of those men were apostles, appointed to be “sent” for the purpose of continuing His message. One of the apostles wrote Romans 1, that passage that your church is trying to say is crap. Why are Paul's writings in Romans “crap”, but John's narrative about the resurrection “not crap”? Because you don't like what the apostle wrote in Romans, but you like what the other one wrote in John. If God is a perfect God, then he would give us a message that is clear. Your approach is to say “the Bible is a turd, but once polished up by our experts, it'll be worth something”. You consider your scholars to have more insight into spiritual truth than the Apostle Paul! He was appointed to be an apostle by Jesus himself, you are self-appointed. You can see cultural bias, but not he could not?
Consider this. The same Luke who wrote that Jesus was miraculously raised from the dead is the same person who wrote in Acts that the resurrected Jesus appointed Paul to be an apostle. Luke accurately discerned that Jesus was the Son of God, but flubbed when he said Paul had the authority of an apostle? If Paul's writings are suspect, then isn't Paul himself suspect, and logically, doesn't that make us question Luke's reliability? You cannot support the truth in Luke's writings (remember - Luke was not an apostle) while simultaneously dismissing the parts of Paul's writings that you just don't like (remember - Paul WAS an apostle, per Luke).
You write with an affirmative heart. I am, in one sense, refreshed by you… and at the same time, I'm very disturbed by the dangerous and harmful way that you have picked apart God's message.
Ask God to show you how his message is truthful and reliable, and he will show it to you. Don't take these short cuts. It's not God-honoring for you to do so.
12 September 2007
at 8:58 a.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
“we will all soon realize that LGBT people are loved children of God”
Of course! I'm already there! God loves the LGBT community more than anyone, which is why He's so very passionate that they find His path. His love doesn't equal His acceptance of their choices. We all struggle with sins that seem good at the time, but God calls us to question ourselves before we question HIM.
Read the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father loved his son, but he never indicated acceptance of his choices. The son had to return to the father, not the other way around. Your approach is to tell God “you should meet us in the place we choose to stay” instead of asking him “show me the direction to point myself in; YOUR direction is what I need”.
12 September 2007
at 9:10 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear OldEnuf,
So you havent answered my question.
Since you take the Bible literally, then why don't you condone slavery? Or do you? Do you also condone the abuse of women and treating them like 2nd class citizens? I hope and pray that the answer to those questions is no.
If that is the case, then my friend, you do follow the Bible according to its context.
If not, how do you pick and choose what to follow? How do you pick and choose which scriptures to adhere and which not to?
12 September 2007
at 9:22 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
To add something, I'm pretty sure nothing in the new testament (which everyone is saying negates any rules in the old testament) condes slavery or the abuse and desegration of women. I'd like to agree with most everything OldEnuf said, b/c I still find the expanation by the MCC of how the new testament apostle addresses homosexualy to be quite humorous and twisted. To believe that logic is to dive into delusion. By that standard when Jesus said, “Who among you has not sinned may cast the first stone” was really only in reference to the ancient practice of stoning (which is the context this statement was used) and therefore says nothing to condemn judgement… which makes the homosexuality interpretation even more bizarre since it was a straight-forward (!!) command by a Christ-appointed apostle.
12 September 2007
at 9:31 a.m.
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gayokay (Anonymous) says…
Great job Reverand Patrick. I'm looking forward to MCC Topeka worship services this Sunday. Thank God for you and MCC you have positively impacted my and many others lives.
12 September 2007
at 9:39 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Gayokay,
Thank you and I look forward to worshiping and sharing God together on Sunday at our Christian church.
12 September 2007
at 9:44 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I would also like to agree that we are all born into sin, and born WITH a sinful nature, so that many of our natural tendencies are a struggle against what we are taught in our faith. I fully admit that. I struggle every day with my personal flaws such as sexual immortality, judgment, impatience, etc. I would not be human if I did not. Such is the way of mortality and faith. There is a difference between accepting that I am saved by grace and using that grace to help me live a more god-pleasing life, as opposed to accepting I am saved by grace and then living life as I feel fit.
12 September 2007
at 9:45 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
um, yeah scenebooster. that was my example of delusion compared to the delusion of historical context. I wasn't actually serious in that statement.
12 September 2007
at 9:55 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Dear Snazzo,
IF homosexuality was a sin, then I would be concerned!
In the article here, we are referred to as outcasts. Jesus was considered an outcast also. Jesus spent his time with the referred to “outcasts” of society. And Jesus said to so many of them…”Your faith has healed you and set you free”. I am gladly an outcast.
12 September 2007
at 10:02 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Does faith save or heal in the absence of repentance?
12 September 2007
at 10:06 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
yes, their faith in Christ… when they repented. In fact, Jesus spent his time calling for outcasts and sinners to repent. He called them out on their sins. He did not just go up to outcasts and say, “you are forgiven!” when they continued to live in their sin with no regret. That is your choice to believe in historical context of such a blatant message, but I have not found anything to back up your interpretation, and in fact, find it full of holes in comparision to the rest of your faith in the new testament gospel.
12 September 2007
at 10:06 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
75,
If I had anything to repent about, I would answer your question.
12 September 2007
at 10:08 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Maybe we should look closer at the story of the Good Samaritan. It cleary is a lesson on how we can be so focused on the written word and completelyl miss the “spirit of the law”.
12 September 2007
at 10:08 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
scenebooster, how are we NOT born into sin? If you believe any of the bible, especially the new testament, you are obviously blind on this statement of purity. Its your choice to believe that if you do not adhere to the bible, b/c that is your choice of faith, but in this discussion pertaining to the gospel, you are definately off course.
12 September 2007
at 10:12 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I don't believe the Good Samaritan has anything to do with sin and repentance, but of helping your fellow man. How about when Jesus came across the woman at the well and said, “you are living in sin. The man in your bed is not your husband.” If using historical context, we could say, its 2007! pre-marital sex is accepted these days! even though the apostles clearly speak against it.. and if you agree they clearly speak against it, you would be in denial to say they don't clearly speak against homosexuality.
12 September 2007
at 10:19 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Snazzo,
When you repeatedly speak of homosexuality being a sin you base it on Sodom and Gomorrah theology. Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality, it was about sexual immorality, lust and inhospitality. Study the hebrew and greek and you will see.
The Good Samaritan story clearly shows that we can be so focused on “proving” who is right and who is wrong that we walk right past ministry which is right in front of us. Sounds like sin to me.
12 September 2007
at 10:20 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
That tells me everything I needed to know.
12 September 2007
at 10:28 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I'm pretty sure none of us are walking by ministry when we try to discuss how being delusional about parts of blatant instruction by the apostles is dangerous territory. Jesus loved the sinner, not the sin. Do you see the difference? I'm also not basing anything on Sodom and Gomorrah theology. I've chosen to forgo any talk of Old Testament, since the focus of agreement lies in the New Testament. All but this one issue, which I believe is dangerous to dismiss while being so focused on every other aspect. If you say the New Testament instruction of homosexuality is based in the Old Testament, why is nothing else? I have given many examples of things that are equally as clear in instruction and examples of Jesus' own teachings on how we should live. You agree on all of these topics, just not that one instruction. I find it hard to understand this logic.
12 September 2007
at 10:29 a.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
“Since you take the Bible literally, then why don't you condone slavery? Or do you? Do you also condone the abuse of women and treating them like 2nd class citizens?”
I didn't answer those directly because a complete answer would be difficult in 3000 characters (and, I'm trying to take care of a baby here). Let me say: The Bible admits that there will be slavery, it doesn't condone it. The Bible does NOT condone the abuse of women and does NOT treat them like 2nd class citizens. Now, to really defend those statements… I cannot do that here, with these limits of time and text.
You mention the spirit of the law. Good. Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing) “you tithe mint and cumin but neglect the wieghtier matters of the law… these you should have done, without neglecting the others”. The spirit of the law is very important, but emphasising the spirit of the meaning should never cause us to negate the law's literal meaning. Do both: emphasize justice, mercy and love, AND let God be Lord by obeying his commands.
What do you say? Is Paul inspired or do we cut all of his epistles out of our Bibles? If he's inspired, then homosexuality is not right. If he's not inspired, then why read him at all? You have to decide if he speaks the words of God or not. If not, then why are you reading a bigot's writings in your church? You cannot have Paul both ways.
Also, I DO take the scriptures in context (otherwise, we'd misunderstand most of it), but I do that in subjection to God's commands. I don't put context above the validity of the written word. I consider history and culture to help me understand the scriptures better, not to help me edit and dismiss it.
What you are failing to admit is this: the lens of “context” you see scripture through is simply the lens of YOUR agenda.
12 September 2007
at 10:30 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Guys and Gals,
I need to get back to work but I didnt want you to think that I was ignoring you. I love you all and appreciate the dialogue and conversation we have been enjoying. I will check in with you later. I pray that we all stay open to all which God so freely offers us. It can be an amazing journey filled with life, love, peace and especially an abudance of joy !
12 September 2007
at 10:30 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
That's all I was saying scenebooster. You obviously believe in something different. That's fine. We're on two different planes of focus. Argument over.
12 September 2007
at 11:04 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“That obviously goes both ways, so to speak.”
Yes, obviously. Which makes me wonder by non-believers have any 'dog in the fight' where discussions of biblical doctrine are concerned.
OH, forgive me - it's that everyone-has-an-opinon deal again - never mind. : )
12 September 2007
at 11:29 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I'm pretty sure the discussion we're having is not about shaping the public as a whole to our way of thinking, but discussing the issues of biblical doctrine with those who believe in biblical doctrine. Basically we've gotten it down to “you believe in chickens, then why wouldn't you believe in eggs?” and you're jumping in with, “Horses grew from the size of dogs!!” What does that have to do at all with the present conversation?? I think its widely understood that you believe drastically different ideas, and no one seems to have a problem with that. You're the one bringing it back up in a discussion between people who actually believe in biblical doctrine, and are discussing specific areas of such.
12 September 2007
at 11:30 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“Finally! We can get to the crux of the matter - our “dog in the fight” is the fact that you more “religiously minded” folks seem to have the need to shape public policy and interfere in the lives of others based on YOUR interpretations of religious text.”
Long haul for nuthin, my friend - that really doesn't hit on any cylinders for this particular article.
Not that your concern isn't a valid viewpoint, as it certainly is in many cases. Power can and likely will be abused by whomever gains it - however, the possibly irrational fear of an extremist segment of a population shouldn't be the motivating factor in dealing with the majority (same with current views of Islam and it's minority internal whacko jihadist elements).
In regards to current 'religious right' fears, I'm surprised that more people haven't noted that this movement (primarily a 1980s and very early 1990s one) has faded considerably. Their religion is not secular political power, so this fade is bound to happen.
12 September 2007
at 11:48 a.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Absolutely not! You are more than free and welcome to comment on the discussion. However, at this point we've come to discuss very specific issues of disagreement within a mutual belief that you don't seem to share, and so rallying against the idea of the whole mutual belief as if we were personally attacking you is not really productive… since that is not what's actually going on. I don't think anyone is saying, “my version of God is right, and yours is not.” I don't think anyone is saying that at all!
12 September 2007
at 12:25 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Perhaps I can shine some light on what my thinking for you, scenebooster.
The two sides of the discussion here primarily defined by positions of absolute truth vs. relativistic truth. If one is to have a discussion of biblical doctrine you may or may not need to actually be a believer, but you do have to have a standard for basing your theological positions.
Is the standard for biblical doctrine the Bible, or your opinion of it and whatever you choose to accept/reject of it? The first position accepts that the Bible is the source for absolute truth, and that it is internally and logically consistent through it's entirety. The second position is variable and dependent upon the opinion and whim of the individual positing that position.
The position using the Bible as the standard of absolute truth allows the debating sides to have common ground. This won't preclude errors based on misinterpretation (not uncommon at all!), but the source of that standard does not change.
The position based on the feelings, opinions and pick-n-choose standard of the relativist is, quite obviously, very flexible to say the least. However, this position has the burden of eventually answering the extremely harsh observation offered by situveux1 above - (“Anybody that follows a document they admit is full of fallacies is an idiot.”).
Regarding -
“Overall I just find it funny (in a pathetic way) that an article titled “Area Church Prides Itself On Diversity, Acceptance” would elicit such vitrolic statements from those whose argument is basically “My version of God is right, and yours is wrong”.”
It would be pathetic, if the arguing parties were both of a relativistic mindset. I think a more accurate portrayal would be that “God is right, and XYZ's doctrine is or isn't consistent with the standard of measure”. The real question being, what is the standard of measure for the parties involved.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that you tend to look at these debates from a relativist's viewpoint, that 'truths' are determined by the individual for themselves and not from an 'outside' authority?
12 September 2007
at 1:02 p.m.
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ontheotherhand (Anonymous) says…
It always amazes me that people who believe in the Virgin birth, Jesus' walking on water, and other miraculous events cannot believe that two men or two women might actually love each other. Which is the bigger leap of faith?
Also amazes me how the people who act like they are God's spokesperson use the most virulent and hateful language.
Ever wonder why a lot of people don't want to be Christians? Sounds too much like a hateful gang to me . . .
12 September 2007
at 1:37 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
wow. awesome. ontheotherhand, you completely missed what anyone was saying on this forum. here's a few flaws to that attitude:
1. MCC is considered a Christian Church
2. There are more stricter religions out there that have as great a following of Christianity that looks much more sternly on homosexuality. Of all the major world religions, I think Christianity has become more accepting than any other.
3. No one is acting as God's spokesman or saying hateful things about other people. We were mainly discussing the platform of the bible and what each sect believes.
12 September 2007
at 1:46 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I'm not trying to destroy others or make someone's faith invalid. What I was attempting to point out (that which I find very humorous) is that this church has centered their theology on one specific topic by decrying a very short, blunt, piece of scripture as being in historical context, and therefore invalid. This is the main basis for their church. To include homosexuals by making a short verse of scripture invalid. Nevermind that they believe every other passage of the gospel as the word of God, including those instructions which are even more vague than the very obvious decried piece of scripture. That's all. I find it humorous. They've twisted one little thing to make their entire church.
12 September 2007
at 2:06 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I don't know who you're speaking of, but all of the Christians I know hold each sin as equal as the next - adultry as much as murder - there is no differing.
12 September 2007
at 2:24 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
“I don't know who you're speaking of, but all of the Christians I know hold each sin as equal as the next - adultry as much as murder - there is no differing.”
-Snazzo
Here's an example: James Dobson, supposedly one of the most revered Evangelicals in America, continually preaches vehemently against homosexuality while at the same time praising an adulterer like Newt Gingrich. All Gingrich had to tell Dobson was that he was sorry for his sins (yeah right—Newt was just playing into Dobson's Messiah Complex) and all is well.
To recap:
Being in a loving, monogamous homosexual relationship = deplorable to Dobson
Being a habitual adulterer and a disgraced (i.e. ethically bankrupt) politician, but otherwise heterosexual = hunky-dory to Dobson.
12 September 2007
at 2:24 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
See what I mean, scenebooster? Ls04 comes in with the classic relativists viewpoint - “Both are rooted in the notion that YOU (or your denomination) and only YOU have the “correct” path to God through Christ.”
The focus is upon the 'notion' that truth is only an individual perception, rather than an external objective standard.
12 September 2007
at 2:34 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
awesome. and people like you are as equally guilty in religious discrimination as those morally corrupt Christians you so selectively point out. Thanks for giving the rest of the millions and millions credit for what you assume they believe.
12 September 2007
at 3:11 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
Snazzo,
I don't discriminate based on religion (or lack thereof).
I discriminate based on hypocrisy, corruption, and megalomaniacism.
12 September 2007
at 3:15 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Of Christians. You say Christianity is full of hypocrisy, corruption, and megalomaniacism, when that is just a select group that happens to be in the spotlight. That's just like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Its religious discrimination.
12 September 2007
at 3:16 p.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
It's narrowminded bigots like Oldenuf and others that make me turn away from organized religion.
Those of you that claim to follow the Bible literally DO condone slavery and the subjugation of women. Congratulations, idiots. You get to sit back and watch humanity evolve into better people than you.
12 September 2007
at 3:25 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
Snazzo,
Nowhere did I say that “Christianity is full of hypocrisy…” Those are your words, and i'd appreciate it if you would please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I simply gave ONE example to rebuff your earlier statement, and that example happened to concern Christians. I don't care what someone's religion is. Hindu, Jew, Christian, etc. — makes no difference to me.
And no, not all Muslims are terrorists. Just like not all Christians are hypocrites.
12 September 2007
at 3:30 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
LO04 - you divert to a totally different subject; I was discussing worldviews that people bring to the table when debating biblical doctrines. And no one is 'dismissing an entire CHURCH', whatever that means.
12 September 2007
at 3:51 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I'm pretty sure that “all of the Christians I know” doesn't mean “all Christians.” Do you have something against Christianity? Because I don't think you even understand the issue that non-accepting denominations have with those denominations that accept homosexuality. It is a matter of argument in regards to biblical doctrine. You seem to think that Christians who are against homosexuality persecute and discriminate against the population, when that is just an assumption brought on by extremist actions that you have seen from a small group of people. You seem to disregard the other stance of “love the sinner, but hate the sin,” which is much more common, but obviously less publicized.. b/c why would peaceful acceptance ever be publicized. Thats not breaking news!!
12 September 2007
at 3:59 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“Try to wrap your head around the idea that there may be several related tangents that spawn on a free flowing thread such as this one.”
But then again, too many tangents only weakens the ability of thoughtful or cogent dialogue to occur.
Considering my post was directed to scenebooster, I suppose I should be more tolerant of your off-topic interruptions. My bad. I'll refrain responding to them.
12 September 2007
at 4 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
Also, before you get all worked up about dismissing a church for picking and choosing what to believe, most churches have a very complex, well-researched theology for what they believe. I would be more than happy to discuss these differences, as I know each has a very detailed reason for what they believe. however, you obviously missed the point of the extensive debate from earlier today concerning the method of belief of the MCC. In this entire thread, I am merely attempting to point out there is no real method for the MCC to decide to dismiss one very specific, very short passage, when they so eagerly accept other passages very similar in character. There is no consistancy in their logic. Why is one thing a historical context, and another not?
12 September 2007
at 4:35 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
I find it ridiculous that several of you defending the church only point out very small things that I've written, and don't actually adress many of the other points that I'm making, especially those directly concerning the church's logic of doctrine. Thanks for skipping over all of that and tearing about statements out of context. You must either not understand the debate, or you just have nothing better to do.
12 September 2007
at 4:38 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
“… the main point of the church is a free loving environment to worship God, to search one's soul, to serve the community around us and develop friends in God:.just like any other church:”
Jesus died on a cross for… this?
12 September 2007
at 5:04 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
“I am merely attempting to point out there is no real method for the MCC to decide to dismiss one very specific, very short passage, when they so eagerly accept other passages very similar in character”….a quote from snazzo.
Well you don't condone slavery so you accept some things and reject others. So how are we any different from you?
12 September 2007
at 6:16 p.m.
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snazzo (Anonymous) says…
RevPatrick: Here is one of my posts from earlier that was never addressed. It seems like a lot of my points are being turned under. *sigh* we keep going in circles.
To add something, I'm pretty sure nothing in the new testament (which everyone is saying negates any rules in the old testament) condones slavery or the abuse and desecration of women. I'd like to agree with most everything OldEnuf said, b/c I still find the expanation by the MCC of how the new testament apostle addresses homosexualy to be quite humorous and twisted. To believe that logic is to dive into delusion. By that standard when Jesus said, “Who among you has not sinned may cast the first stone” was really only in reference to the ancient practice of stoning (which is the context this statement was used) and therefore says nothing to condemn judgement: which makes the homosexuality interpretation even more bizarre since it was a straight-forward (!!) command by a Christ-appointed apostle.
12 September 2007
at 8:23 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
Ditto on logicsound04's 6:34pm post.
12 September 2007
at 8:27 p.m.
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ndmoderate (Anonymous) says…
Snazzo,
Isn't one of the main objectives of a Christian to witness to others in order to convert them to your side? Because I have found your defensive, recalcitrant, and rude comments fall a bit short on convincing me I should look into Jesus.
If you're not a Christian, then please disregard my post. Super. Thanks.
12 September 2007
at 9:23 p.m.
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perkins (Anonymous) says…
I don't belong to an organized church. I'm a Methodist.
12 September 2007
at 9:26 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
ROFLOL!
13 September 2007
at 10:36 p.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Good talking to you all !
Thanks for the great conversation.
If we don't meet before, see you on the other side.
Love,
Rev. Patrick
14 September 2007
at 3:27 a.m.
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clyde_never_barks (Anonymous) says…
revpatrick (Anonymous) says:
Americorps,
Great point ! I answer to God and God alone. And all I am asking for is my right to do so !
Thanks,
RevPatrick
–––––––—
I think you will have that right Mr. Patrick…hope you are prepared for the consequenses.
14 September 2007
at 6:16 a.m.
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found_it (Anonymous) says…
There is a difference between ceremonial, dietary and civil law compared to the moral code. Rev Patrick has developed a straw man by comparing the injunction against homosexuality with that of slavery. A casual exegesis of scripture would clearly reveal that there are some laws that do not have the same claim on the lives of those who live in a secular society as compared to those that transcend history and culture.
I appreciate the comments about the church missing the point, as it has often during its history but (according to Christian theology) the church is more than a community of people gathered around a common purpose. It is the mystical body of Christ. One cannot live fully into one's relationship with God without being part of the body.
I don't believe the issue posed here is really about homosexuality. I think it has more to do with something more basic. Is the Christian faith a call to transformation, repentance and forgiveness or is it about the celebration of how we choose to live our lives? Are we the arbiters between the way we live our life and the way we should live our lives, or is there something and someone more objective? Are we in the 21st Century the one's who finally “got it right,” and all of those who came before were simply clueless…. and well, homophobic? I think that the MCC would answer these questions one way, and orthodox Chrisianity would answer them in another.
Having said that, I wince when I hear that homosexuality is THE sin. It seems that there are those on both sides of the issue who miss the point. I think this is what has distracted the religious right and confused those on the left. Ignoring the plight of the poor, destroying the environment, war and poverty are just a few of the sins that should cause indignation among God's people. Yet, we stay stuck in issues of sexuality.
15 September 2007
at 9:55 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Thank you for the advice Clyde but I choose to leave the consequences up to God.
Love and peace,
Rev. Patrick
15 September 2007
at 10 a.m.
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revpatrick (Anonymous) says…
Clyde,
Also I must add that I don't live my life based soley on the destination of future consequences alone.
I am living a life of God's blessings now (my journey) which is one of the most peace I have ever known, the most love I have ever known, and the most joy I have ever known.
I pray that God blesses you the same on your journey.
Rev. Patrick