Archive for Sunday, November 25, 2007

Government seeks to cut gray wolves from endangered list

November 25, 2007

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A gray wolf pup from the Calder Mountain pack along the Montana and Idaho borders west of Troy, Mont., is shown in this August 2005 file photo. Gray wolves in the northern Rockies are being removed from the endangered species list following a 13-year restoration effort, it was announced last week. A group of environmental and animal rights organizations plans to fight the de-listing.

A gray wolf pup from the Calder Mountain pack along the Montana and Idaho borders west of Troy, Mont., is shown in this August 2005 file photo. Gray wolves in the northern Rockies are being removed from the endangered species list following a 13-year restoration effort, it was announced last week. A group of environmental and animal rights organizations plans to fight the de-listing.

— For rancher Randy Petrich, the removal of gray wolves from the endangered species list - a move that would open up the animals to hunting in the Northern Rockies for the first time in decades - couldn't come soon enough.

On the same land where it was once rare to see the animal, Petrich has seen fresh wolf tracks almost every morning this fall - close enough to threaten his cattle.

"I believe that any wolf on any given night, if there happens to be a calf there, they will kill it," Petrich said. "In reality, to help us now, we need to be trapping them, shooting them - as many as possible."

Just 12 years since the wolves were reintroduced into Yellowstone National Park after years of near-extinction, federal officials say the sharp rise in the wolf population in the region justifies removing them from the endangered species list.

Critics, however, say the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is moving too fast, and could be setting the stage for a slaughter that would push wolves back to the brink in the Rockies.

For cattle ranchers like Petrich in the Paradise Valley north of Yellowstone, who already have the right to kill predators threatening their stock, the killing of wolves who established new territories outside the park has already begun.

Seven times in the last five years, Petrich, a third-generation rancher, has shot a wolf for killing or harassing cattle.

It took $24 million of federal funds and more than two decades to bring wolves back from near-extinction in the northern Rocky Mountains - the result of a government eradication program in the mid-1900s that included widespread poisoning of wolves.

After years of debate, an initial 66 wolves were transplanted into the park from Canada beginning in 1995.

Now, an estimated 1,545 roam Idaho, Montana and Wyoming - more than enough, federal official say, to justify removing them from the endangered species list.

Environmentalists fighting the plan argue that at least 2,000 to 3,000 wolves are needed in the region to keep them from again disappearing from the American West.

"This is all about wolf killing," said Doug Honnold, an attorney for the environmental group Earthjustice.

In recent years, as the wolf population re-established itself, the number of cattle, sheep and other domestic animals killed by wolves has soared from 123 in 2000 to 330 this year through early October.

The number of wolves killed in response - by ranchers and federal wildlife agents acting on their behalf - increased sevenfold in the same period, from 20 to 146.

Under the plan to delist the animal, hunters and trappers would be allowed to obtain permits to kill wolves. As long as at least 450 wolves survived, the animal would remain fair game. Any fewer and hunting and trapping would be curtailed. If their numbers dropped below 300, they would go back on the endangered list.

Several environmental groups are promising lawsuits to halt delisting. Anticipating court delays, the Fish and Wildlife Service is proposing a backup plan that would keep wolves on the endangered list but loosen restrictions on when they could be killed to protect game animals such as elk - the wolves' natural prey.

Comments

sdinges 7 years, 6 months ago

"Doesn't seem to be me who misunderstood. These particular wolves were bred up from imported stock, and raised as a protected species."

My understanding is that the Canadian wolves and the original, extinct American wolves were the same species. So they're not foreign wolves altogether, they do have a natural place in that ecosystem. The wolves killing cattle is also the original reason they were poisoned and killed. So no big surprise they're doing it now.

""It seems like a good compromise might be to remove the wolves from the endangered species list and introduce an extremely limited hunting season."

According to the story, that's exactly what they're doing."

Actually, according to the story, if they get taken off the list, hunters will have free reign until 300-450 remain, at which point they would become protected again. That would be a two-thirds to three-quarter reduction. There doesn't seem to be any limit other than that extreme, which seems senseless.

"The ones who adapt and survive after being taken off the list will be the ones who are smart enough to stay away from humankind."

I hate to say it, but I think we've proven that we're smarter and more adept at killing than most other species. I would argue that the wolves will always be tempted by cattle, thus raising the ire of ranchers. I don't know that a wolf is capable of making the connection you're looking for. The wolves will never be smart enough to avoid us when we're hunting them, because we're just better at it than they are. They're simple animals. If we want them around, we need to make a concerted effort to keep them around, because they may not be smart enough to avoid us, but we're certainly smart enough to figure out how to live with them. The ones being discussed are living in a national park (since the ones outside the park are already hunted). Isn't this exactly what we set national parks aside for? Not for cattle, but to protect wildlife.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

marion, you seem to be throwing the term "sub-human" around a lot these days. Besides Africans and Japanese. what other racial groups do you hate?

badger 7 years, 6 months ago

This is wrong.

They can already kill wolves that are directly threatening their livestock. They just want an open hunt to eradicate them in their area again. Basically, license to kill a threatening animal isn't enough for them. They refuse to co-exist, which they're ultimately going to just have to suck it up and learn to do if we don't want localized grey wolf extinctions.

If they had no right to kill an animal threatening or harassing their stock, that would be different. But removing wolves from the endangered species list will just put them right back on it within five years, undoing all the careful breeding, conservation, and protection work that people have worked very hard on. We'll be back at square one.

I'd like it if these ranchers would just come right out and admit that they're perfectly comfortable with paying the price for their fiscal security with the extinction of grey wolves. That's really what it comes down to. They're perfectly happy to preserve their way of life if it results in the catastrophic loss of a major element of the ecology.

This isn't some little spotted owl. Predators are a key element of the ecosystem. Seen deer populations lately? Seen how many deer starve each year? Down here, you drive though neighborhoods and four, five, ten of them run out of your way in the street. They're half-sized because there's no food for them. That's what happens when you kill out predators and replace hunting pressures with grocery stores full of corn-fed beef. Some states, like Texas, can't issue deer tags fast enough to control the population, because we killed off all the predators for the sake of the ranchers. So now homeowners have thousands of dollars in deer damage each year as these starving animals eat their trees, shrubs, and occasionally their siding (seen a house a deer chewed the corner right off of!). I won't even visit the cost of deer running in front of cars. That's the price of letting ranchers push for what will ultimately result in the extermination of a major North American predator.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

For what it's worth, I didn't use the term "racist" in my post, but if the shoe fits, well you know what to do. Don't you, Nick Danger / outingbulkerbiz / Marion Sydney Lynn?

janeb 7 years, 6 months ago

Maybe some folks ought to load up and start shooting cattle that are in the middle of wildlife regions.

oldvet 7 years, 6 months ago

An injured rabbit call and a Ruger 77 in .220 Swift... another one bites the dust...

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

enforcer, here's a new link about girlfriend: http://ikillspammers.blogspot.com/ Some adult language.

Amy Heeter 7 years, 6 months ago

You know Dots I hear the Wolves are depressed about all this. We have already established the neighboring farmers are provoking them by placing cattle within their reach. The wolves may be getting bullied here we need legislation to stop this. Seriously though wolves are beautiful creatures.

sdinges 7 years, 6 months ago

DotsLines: "But more likely it's just that these animals were artificially introduced into the ecosystem and protected from their only predator (us), so they have no natural fear of human settlements. And calves are easier to kill than deer."

Maybe you misunderstood, but they were actually RE-introduced into an ecosystem where they previously belonged (before we killed them all off). The article states that ranchers can already kill wolves that are threatening or harassing their cattle/land, so logically they probably do have a fear of humans - after all, they're not killing calves right in front of people, one presumes. As you say, the real reason why they're killing farm animals is probably just because it's easier. Maybe there's a better way to make it harder - like fences or closer vigilance to keep the young animals closer to home.

"Maybe giving them a new reason to fear man will encourage them back to the woods and the deer, and allow a more natural balance to develop."

They didn't learn their lesson the last time we drove them to extinction, I don't know why you'd think we could teach them this time.

Again, farmers and ranchers already have the right to kill wolves they see close to or on their land. The problem is that they don't always see them in time. So they want to go out and hunt them back to non-existence, which would obviously be more convenient for them.

I mean.. I hate to sound like a raging environmentalist here, but wouldn't a better solution all around be that humans learn to live with a bit of wildlife? No one says they can't defend their lifestock, but they're asking for free reign to hunt and kill at will. And I think we know where that will lead.

It seems like a good compromise might be to remove the wolves from the endangered species list and introduce an extremely limited hunting season. That way ranchers could remove the animals that they find in close proximity to their land, but would be forced to refrain from widespread eradication.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 6 months ago

While it's true that wolves were RE-introduced, it's cattle which are the artificially introduced species in that region. Without humans, they could not survive in this area, although a related species, the bison, once thrived.

jonas 7 years, 6 months ago

"Um - not to be too obvious - but the ones who learn that killing cattle is a no-no are in no position to pass that on. The ones who adapt and survive after being taken off the list will be the ones who are smart enough to stay away from humankind."

Dots, I think I've got a solution for you. It's a new hunting tactic called "Wolf-Winging." Give hunters an incentive ($100 gift certificates or something) to not kill but just hurt wolves in some fashion, like a shot to the rump or blasting off their tail or one of their ears, so they can limp back to the pack and spread the tale about how much it sucks running into humans and guns. I've always heard wolves are social animals, I'm sure it would only be a matter of time.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

outingbulkerbiz, how would you characterize referring to a people as "sub-human"? Sounds like prejudiced hostility or animosity to me.

salad 7 years, 6 months ago

I think they need to release wolves into west Lawrence.

janeb 7 years, 6 months ago

With the price of gas we might want to consider dog sledding.

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Katara, The foundation of evolution is competition. Did you go to school?

Adaptation results from external stress brought on by two agents, environment or competition.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

At least wolves are less vicious than pit bulls or delusional old men.

preebo 7 years, 6 months ago

This article is right in one area...

"Several environmental groups are promising lawsuits to halt delisting. Anticipating court delays, the Fish and Wildlife Service is proposing a backup plan that would keep wolves on the endangered list but loosen restrictions on when they could be killed to protect game animals such as elk - the wolves' natural prey."

There most certainly will be litigation on behalf of an endangered species.

KUDB99 7 years, 6 months ago

It's sad that people can't seem to get past their old world prejudices regarding the wolf. There has never been a recorded human fatality attributed to a wolf attack in North America, and yet people fear them. Seems to me the same cannot be said for pit bulls or rottweilers or other vicious domesticated dogs.

There is also a federal fund that farmers and ranchers can tap in the event a wolf kills some of their livestock, and besides, if a rancher can defend his property, then why remove them from the protected list. This is just rampant paranoia run amok.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 6 months ago

"Well, bozo, for that matter, man is "the artificially introduced species in that region." So I guess your solution would be depopulating those states?"

Actually, humans have been living in that area for tens of thousands of years. It depends on your definition of "artificially introduced."

I wouldn't propose depopulating the area, but I would propose that those who do live there should have a very high tolerance for the other species that they share the land with.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

ag, maybe swampfox1951 deserves the benefit of the doubt. marion, how are you planning to out me? Will your experience as a double-naught spy help you? Have you been the victim of identity theft again lately?

yankeelady 7 years, 6 months ago

Isn't there a program run by Defender's of Wildlife that reimburses ranchers for proven wolf predation? I know early on that was the case. I have a problem with cattle being run on public lands "leased" by ranchers. Not only the wolves are threatened, but bison that wander out of Yellowstone are shot, because they "might" carry brucellosis. If you live in a wilderness area, you have to expect wildlife, and learn to coexist.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

And then off to the Fortress of Arrogance for DOPESman and Boo Boo!

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Woof woof woof

Hoooooowwwwwwwwllllll

Woof woof

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Hmmm, never thought I would see "enforcer" here again, well, not under that name anyway.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

marion, sit on the couch & tell me about your obsession with "outing". Is it just a manifestation of your impotent rage? Or is it displacement? Do you have some shameful secret you want to protect & you think that by revealing other people's secrets you are keeping yourself safe? Start at the beginning. We have a whole hour. Do you mind if I light up this cigar?

ForThePeople 7 years, 6 months ago

What a shame to see people who actually provide intellectual and informative comments like Dots getting bumped, while has beens like...well we all know, are still here!

cowboy 7 years, 6 months ago

Wolves and cattle don't mix well , god love the wolves but how much compensation does a rancher get ? Does he get the cost of the heifer calve plus the incremental income that calve would have produced over her lifetime. Probably not. Take a steer and the costs are simple , take a breeding stock animal and it gets complicated. In my small world it's not real easy to find that predator either , they strike when you aren't there and what do you do then ?

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Reminds me of the time Nick Danger called for a DDOS attack against spam-court.

costello 7 years, 6 months ago

"What a shame to see people who actually provide intellectual and informative comments like Dots getting bumped."

I agree. I'll really miss her posts. She stepped over a line, though, when she gave the names of other posters.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

"Snap; you will notice that in my precedding post I did not say or imply that the upcoming changes to your internet lfe have anything at all to do with me, will have been insitigated by me or istigataed by anyone with any connection with me but I confess, it was interesting to see you go there right off the bat."

Your circumlocutions have been noted & will be filed under "implausable deniability". BTW, the word is "instigate". You get a failing mark for spelling, but an "E" for effort.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

snap writes:

Nick, are you raving about the American Bison? Last time I looked they weren't considered endangered. Or are you thinking about the Auroch?

T h a n k s ,

s n a p

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

"Just goes to show how emotions and anger can take a toll on a person." The irony meter just jumped off the shelf.

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Two ladies posting attacks against opposing opinions. Ms. Enforcer and Ms. Marion, what gives you the right to elevate a dog above a cow? They are both animals, that is all. They aren't human no matter how much you like them. I have a great dog, it is a joy to pet her and play with her. I realize though that she will always be, just a dog, merely an animal.

Get over yourselves.

Woof, woof Woof, woof woof Hoooowwwwwlllllll. Woof

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

I was told once that dinosaurs existed, they became extinct and mother earth kept chugging right along. I read about the saber tooth tiger, it to ceased to exist, again mother earth (Gaia) went right along. If we lose a wolf, or a bird or a subspecies of snail darter, Gaia will keep on keepin on. Should we protect the wolf? Only within reason, the endangered species act has been a blanket mandate to thwart private property ownership. You can't see the forest through the trees. The trees need to be harvested.

gr 7 years, 6 months ago

"the removal of gray wolves from the endangered species list - a move that would open up the animals to hunting"

I'm not sure why removal from the list implies hunting.

"It took $24 million of federal funds and more than two decades to bring wolves back "

How many dollars and time did it take to eliminate them in the first place?

==================

"An organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties or breeds or species;"

Keying in on dissimilar "parents", "stock", and "different varieties".

"The creation of offspring from two genetically dissimilar parents."

Besides a self-pollinated and/or inbred plant, can someone give an example of what is NOT a hybrid?

A Lab/Shepherd cross IS a hybrid.

Weezy_Jefferson 7 years, 6 months ago

Do you people have nothing better to do than argue with one another? Go save a wolf or something. Geez.

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Marion (Marion Lynn) says:

Now, come on folks, most of us are evolutionists here and there are several questions on the table. +++++++++++++=======

Now you're getting it girlfriend,

Evolution requires us as the predominant species to eliminate our competition. It is our destiny, our fate or whatever you subscribe to, to evolve and we were all taught that evolution was about the best adapted surviving. As predators at the top of the food chain it is imperative we eliminate the competition. Unless of course you believe us to be created then we'd be mandated to steward the environment and not necessarily eliminating the competition but rather controlling it.

Don't expect an answer, you said you wouldn't and a woman scorned is best left to simmer on her own.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

cap10_insano, psst, despite the girlie name and the general diva attitude, marion claims to be a man. You're not the first poster to make that mistake.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

Weezy_Jefferson (Anonymous) says: "Do you people have nothing better to do than argue with one another? Go save a wolf or something. Geez." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That would require certain poster(s) to leave the bar they are posting from....

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: "Now you're getting it girlfriend,

Evolution requires us as the predominant species to eliminate our competition. It is our destiny, our fate or whatever you subscribe to, to evolve and we were all taught that evolution was about the best adapted surviving. As predators at the top of the food chain it is imperative we eliminate the competition. Unless of course you believe us to be created then we'd be mandated to steward the environment and not necessarily eliminating the competition but rather controlling it." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In nature, predators normally don't compete with each other. Each has its niche which helps keeps balance overall. It is only when that balance is out of whack, you'll see predators competing. That really has nothing to do with the concept of stewardship of the Earth.

And evolution doesn't require any species to eliminate the competition. I'm not convinced that you truly understand how that works.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says: "(Just goes to show how emotions and anger can take a toll on a person.) The irony meter just jumped off the shelf." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tell me about it. Since it is so thick, I took a few slices and poured some syrup on them. Almost as good as pancakes...

I may slice some more to freeze for later. I think it can be used make some great tacos.

Too bad this happened after Thanksgiving. I may be onto something for a turkey substitute!

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

DirtyLinen (Anonymous) says: "Wouldn't protecting a species from hunting interfere with evolution? Just asking, 'cause I like wolves, but wouldn't it make sense that the wolves who manage to avoid hunters will raise more wolves that are able to do that too?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What if it ended up that the wolves who managed to avoid hunters raise pups that will actively target hunters? Maybe with laser beams attached to their heads?

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

GretchenJP (Anonymous) says: "That sounds like a Far Side comic." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Larson was a genius.

sdinges 7 years, 6 months ago

Marion: "Harp seal.... blah blah blah"

I don't know where you get your figures Marion, but the harp seal is nowhere near threatened right now - nor was it ever. According to the government of Canada there are over 5 million harp seals around Newfoundland. The industry did go into decline in the 1980s, as you say, but because of public pressure, which led to most of international markets for seal products to close. The current quota on harp seals is around 300,000 each year - hardly a dent in 5 million. The hunt exists mostly to pacify Newfoundland fishermen who blame the seals for the cod fishery's demise, and to provide some marginal seasonal employment in a province with an unemployment rate of 16 percent - triple the national average.

The main argument against the hunt centers mostly around cruelty, not protection of the species; and for the record, it is illegal to hunt whitecoat seal pups.

The point is, I suppose, that each individual animal is a different case. It's ridiculous to make the argument that we should not kill any animal, ever, because sometimes we mess up. And even more ridiculous to bring up examples that have nothing to do with anything.

As intelligent creatures, however, we can make a concerted effort to stop driving certain species to extinction. Even if our reason is as simple as wanting some diversity for our grandkids - that's good enough. Personally, I think the fact that we're talking about a national park is enough. We don't need to justify the existence/protection of wolves any further than to say "Hey, we just think they're pretty, and we want them there."

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: "Katara, The foundation of evolution is competition. Did you go to school?

Adaptation results from external stress brought on by two agents, environment or competition." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is obvious you didn't or you would understand coevolution ;) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_33

BTW cap10, you must have skipped class missing the vocabulary and grammar lessons. You would have been better off by stating, "The foundation of evolution is adaptation" and then explaining what adaptation results from ;)

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Katara, Spelling and grammar attacks? Hillarious stuff. When you lose the battle over content, go after the message. I'll chalk this up as I was correct, you are desperate to salvage even a minor victory. You can have the spelling and grammar victories, they're not worth much, but if you feel better their yours.

Thanks for the discussion.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

A classic enforcer post: "19 August 2006 at 6:44 p.m. enforcer (Kathy Gragg) says: yes I do know just proving a point to you, additionally I do not believe in racial mixing." Does that include wolves & dogs?

gr 7 years, 6 months ago

"Not a single answer to the questions posed!" Maybe not everyone stays up all night!

"By your logic, is a Native American/Caucasian child an "hybrid"?"

Of course, Marion. What did you not understand about the definition of "hybrid"? What exactly are you trying to imply by your question? It hints at some sort of racist attitude.

=============

"In nature, predators normally don't compete with each other."

Katara, ......

Katara.
Katara, I just don't know what to say. I do believe that is a major part of what evolution is defined as. Also, observe how nature works. What do you think the meaning of the term "noxious weeds" is? Unless you exactly specify "predator" in which case, they have already eliminated the competition. Otherwise, they would not be the top of the food chain. What do you suppose would happen if we introduce lions, jaguars, etc. to the area?

gr 7 years, 6 months ago

Katara, check out http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/nov... Ask yourself what the "predators" were before the rats.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Did girlfriend go to get a perm or something? Got quiet over in the cuckoo section.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: "Katara, Spelling and grammar attacks? Hillarious stuff. When you lose the battle over content, go after the message. I'll chalk this up as I was correct, you are desperate to salvage even a minor victory. You can have the spelling and grammar victories, they're not worth much, but if you feel better their yours.

Thanks for the discussion." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You can feel that you are correct but that does not make it so. Grammar is probably the wrong choice of words for my earlier post. It was the first thing that came to mind. My issue withyour statements is more about the inaccuracy of them. For your earlier statements to work, you'd have to word the as I did for you in my earlier post. Either way, you still demonstrate little knowledge about the concepts ;) You are most welcome for the discussion although I see you contribute little to it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ gr (Anonymous) says: "In nature, predators normally don't compete with each other."

Katara, ::

Katara. Katara, I just don't know what to say. I do believe that is a major part of what evolution is defined as. Also, observe how nature works. What do you think the meaning of the term "noxious weeds" is? Unless you exactly specify "predator" in which case, they have already eliminated the competition. Otherwise, they would not be the top of the food chain. What do you suppose would happen if we introduce lions, jaguars, etc. to the area?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Weeds really aren't predators. I would lean toward parasite. And are lions, jaguars, etc supposed to be in competition to the "predatory weeds"? ;P Wouldn't the cattle be the competition in your scenario?

Anyhoo...there is no understanding of the predator/prey relationship here . It is symbiotic. Elimination of one affects the other, usually in a negative way.

Additionally, you didn't address the full issue of my post. Katara said, "In nature, predators normally don't compete with each other. Each has its niche which helps keeps balance overall. It is only when that balance is out of whack, you'll see predators competing."

You aren't addressing niche and that is an important thing. Fox and wolves can be seen in "competition" with each other for resources once the balance is out of whack but when it is not the two don't even go for the same prey and thus, are noncompetitive.

Further, your link to the rats article proves my point about niches and how each predator has theirs. When you introduce a non-native species, you throw that out of whack. It isn't that the rat is naturally a better predator or can outcompete the native flora and fauna. You can throw rats into environments where they don't thrive.

Hate to make this so quick since I got to go but I did want to briefly address it. :)

trinity 7 years, 6 months ago

ah, the genteel demeanor has been pulled off at last! there is nothing sadder than an old man who tries to appear suave, sophisticated, and all that good junk.

what a piece of work.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

If the survival of the wolf is going to depend on outingbulkerbiz & company, we should just go ahead and schedule the memorial service.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Nick Danger / outingbulkerbiz / swampfox1951 / Marion Sydney Lynn whining about ad hominem attacks. The irony meter just exploded.

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Katara, You're getting sad and pathetic insisting upon a premise that is wrong. Google away or open your biology textbook, competition is the foundation of evolution, the initiator of adaptive behavior/traits.

You do not know more than a 5th Grader.

Thank you for participating, Don Pardow, tell Katara what she'll get for participating on the show?

Mr Pardow: Katara, you get an education, but thats not all, you also get to show your humility and grace by admitting you did not have the correct answer. Come back and play again.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: "Katara, You're getting sad and pathetic insisting upon a premise that is wrong. Google away or open your biology textbook, competition is the foundation of evolution, the initiator of adaptive behavior/traits.

You do not know more than a 5th Grader.

Thank you for participating, Don Pardow, tell Katara what she'll get for participating on the show?

Mr Pardow: Katara, you get an education, but thats not all, you also get to show your humility and grace by admitting you did not have the correct answer. Come back and play again." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well, I'll have to nitpick about your spelling here. It is Don Pardo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Pardo

So you want to assert that competition is the foundation of evolution? Interesting. I certainly can agree with it being as a factor in evolution but it is hardly the foundation.

Care to explain how mutualistic (or symbiotic if you prefer) relationships work? Hint: They are not in competition.

How about telling us how genetic drift is rooted in competition? Hint: It isn't.

I don't have an issue with competition being A factor in evolution. However as the foundation of evolution as you want to put forth, well, it just shows how little you understand the mechanisms & the theory.

P.S. Jeff Foxworthy has certainly turned being a redneck into a lucrative business, hasn't he? Talk about an "evolution" there! ;)

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

You are so sad and pathetic. Mutualistic relationships have evolved as a result of competition with/against other organisms. As a result of competition they've found a mechanism that is mutually beneficial toward their survival. Again, competition. If it can't adapt/evolve then it becomes extinct. What don't you get?

It's not that "I want to assert that competition is the foundation of evolution" rather it is accepted as a foundation of evolution. It is a primary mechanism that triggers change.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

Competition is not the primary mechanism that triggers change. It is a factor that can trigger change but it is not the only factor. Genetic drift is another factor. Genetic drift is not based in competition. Environmental change is not based in competition. Random genetic mutations are not based in competition. These all trigger change.

You can keep calling me sad and pathetic but it isn't going to change the fact that you are ignorant about what evolution is. I have a feeling that you are confusing natural selection (which is a part of evolution) with the overall concept of evolution.

Katara 7 years, 6 months ago

enforcer (Kathy Gragg) says: "Here You go Katara ask wayne's world" Exsqueeze me?

riverdrifter 7 years, 6 months ago

A year ago, a friend and I were duck hunting and hit a wolf pup in the road at a crossing of the Cascade River crossing in Minnesota. It was still alive and we had to end it. Sad deal & we we felt bad, real bad. It clouded over the day. Then we went on & hunted 'bills & 'backs on a lake I cannot remember the name of, for sure. Cascade or Ballclub, Elbow, Lichen? Don't remember. Good hunting, anyway. Big-ass waves, and we shot ducks over a fine rig. One canvasback drake fell dead fell far away and drifted to a far shore and we called the dogs off. W-a-y too far. But we weren't worried: it was there. Then we watched as a huge wolf came out of the woods and waded out & snatched it. Fair enough....

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

30 years ago a friend and I were hunting coyote when we came across 3 red fox. We shot all three, skinned them and sold their pelts for $40 bucks apiece. We also go two coyotes that day for $35 bucks apiece. On the way back to our pick up we saw two coons eating off the fox carcasses, we shot them too. $10 bucks apiece. $210 bucks and we had fun enjoying the outdoors while harvesting fur. A great day by any measure.

mommy3 7 years, 6 months ago

Hello, I know I might be a little behind on my state history. But does anyone know if Kansas has every had a preditory animal such as the wolf? My husband hunts deer, and he claims it's all for the sake of population control, weeding out the sick, blah blah blah. I was just wonderding if we have ever had a preditory animal that once did that job? I've heard of the couger, but was that ever really a natural species to this area? I know of bob cats (can they take down a deer?) and wild dogs (but they tend to be small.)

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Kansas was part of the natural range of both the wolf and the cougar. Mountain lions have been seen in Douglas County within the past few years. I'm thinking that a large bob cat could handle a small whitetail deer.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Hey, girlfriend, when/where am I supposed to be outed? Not that the predicted action "...will have been insitigated by me or istigataed by anyone with any connection with me...", in the words of Nick Danger / outingbulkerbiz / swampfox1951 / Marion Sydney Lynn. Or is it all just a bunch of hooey?

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Marion, Another factor in the deer population explosion is the lack of hunting. The KDWP has a problem, it doesn't have as many hunters buying licenses and this shortfall in revenue is hurting the KDWP. It is also responsible for the increase in the deer population. Wolves would be great if we had the open range for them and they didn't conflict with ranching. The deer population would be better culled if the limit and season were increased.

gr 7 years, 6 months ago

Katara: "Fox and wolves can be seen in "competition" with each other for resources once the balance is out of whack"

How'd the ecosystem get in "balance"? Are you suggesting it was "put" that way?

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Marion, Taxpayers didn't screw up anything. Nothing is screwed up. It is in a state of change. Tax payers should be paying nothing. Read my lips "No new taxes".

riverdrifter 7 years, 6 months ago

Enforcer: how many wolves have you seen (outside of a zoo)? That one stood there, duck in mouth looking at us for several minutes. As in "You gotta problem with this and you are going to do what, exactly?" Then it turned and vanished into the woods with, man, a swagger. We loved it! My friends of the north woods, from my observation, welcome the wolves back. Their fear is that they will return with a vengance and deer and moose numbers will suffer as a result. None of them have much interest in killing wolves. I emailed this board to my friends in northen MN (at last, they all have internet!). Ain't none of them going to respond to this. One, Poot, sez 'Tell them there's a wolf up here for everybody that wants to take one home'.

fairylight 7 years, 6 months ago

cowboy (Anonymous) says:

Wolves and cattle don't mix well , god love the wolves but how much compensation does a rancher get ? Does he get the cost of the heifer calve plus the incremental income that calve would have produced over her lifetime. Probably not. Take a steer and the costs are simple , take a breeding stock animal and it gets complicated. In my small world it's not real easy to find that predator either , they strike when you aren't there and what do you do then ?

Good point. However, I believe the ranchers have rented much of the pasture land to (graze their herds on. ) from the Feds. They do this knowing the wolves are there. It's a chance they take with their eyes wide open, imho. I have no issue with the rancher killing the wolf that kills his calf or lamb ON his own land. I do feel intentionally grazing your animals in an area known for wolf packs is asking for trouble and you have no right to whine about it when the wolf acts in his natural way. Ranchers are not going to downsize their herds to make way for the wolf or bear or any wild animal without some incentive. imho.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

  1. 26 November 2007 at 10:31 p.m.

Marion (Marion Lynn) says: Enjoy YOUR stay, snap_soon_to_be_outed_pop_no_crackle! It won't last long! 1. 27 November 2007 at 7:58 a.m.

Marion (Marion Lynn) says: Tell you what snap, I got a $5 bill that says changes are coming to your internet life and another $5 bill that says you won't like those changes! 1. 27 November 2007 at 8:34 a.m.

Marion (Marion Lynn) says: Snap; you will notice that in my precedding post I did not say or imply that the upcoming changes to your internet lfe have anything at all to do with me, will have been insitigated by me or istigataed by anyone with any connection with me but I confess, it was interesting to see you go there right off the bat. I just listen to the occasional little birdie sing and catch the direction of the wind. Like the man said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows!"

Hey, Nick Danger / springlittlecobra / outingbulkerbiz / Marion Sydney Lynn, whatever came of all the hot air you were blowing the other day? My internet life is just as wonderful as it has ever been.

cap10_insano 7 years, 6 months ago

Observer, One thing Marion is not is a liar, and Kathy is not hiding behind the anonymous profile that protects you.

I disagree with Marion and Kathy on this subject, but I respect their beliefs without resorting to name calling.

Its ok to be a bit sarcastic, but you're just plain hateful.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

The big outing Nick Danger, springlilcobra, outingbulkerbiz, Marion Lynn was predicting seems to have been as much of a failure as Pretentious Cow, AAA Pawn and Free State Press.

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