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Archive for Friday, December 21, 2007

Hidden rooms reveal torture by extremists, silence in village

December 21, 2007

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— Blood splotches on walls, chains hanging from a ceiling and swords on the killing floor - the artifacts left a disturbing tale of brutalities inside a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq torture chamber. But there was yet another chilling fact outside the dirt-floor dungeon.

Villagers say they knew about the torment but were too intimidated by extremists to tell authorities until now.

Stories such as these - claims of insurgent abuses and the silence of frightened Iraqis - have emerged with increasing frequency and clarity recently as U.S.-led forces push deeper into former extremist fiefdoms and forge alliances with tribes seeking to reclaim their regions.

The reports and tips now pouring in build a harrowing portrait of rule under al-Qaida and its backers: mass graves, ruthless punishments, self-styled Islamic courts ordering summary executions.

Such a lead brought soldiers earlier this month to the hidden room in Muqdadiyah, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said Thursday. Graffiti on the building proclaimed "Long Live the Islamic State" - a reference to the Islamic governance, or caliphate, sought in Iraq by Sunni extremist groups that include al-Qaida.

Scrawled in white paint above a bed in the torture area was a Quranic phrase in Arabic normally used to welcome a guest. But the context suggested only sadistic mockery: "Come in, you are safe."

The floor was littered with food wrappers, plastic soda bottles and electric cables that snaked to a metal bed frame, presumably where detainees were shocked, according to the U.S. account of the discovery during a Dec. 8-11 mission.

The rooms "had chains, a bed - an iron bed that was still connected to a battery - knives and swords that were still covered in blood," said U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Mark P. Hertling, the top U.S. commander in northern Iraq.

Nearby were nine mass graves containing the remains of 26 people, he said.

Villagers knew about the torture site, but did not tell authorities as they were afraid of reprisals from the militants, a local policeman told The Associated Press. He spoke on condition of anonymity as he was still afraid of being targeted by extremists.

He said he thought the chamber had been used for a year.

It was not the first such torture chamber discovered in Iraq. But it serves as a reminder of the extremist grip in parts of Iraq despite growing optimism as violence continues to fall.

And Diyala province - where the grisly discovery was made - remains one of the most volatile regions as U.S. and Iraqi forces struggle to match the clear advances against extremists made in Baghdad and the western desert of Anbar.

The province is mixed between Sunnis and Shiites - often called a "little Iraq" and a remnant of Iraq before sectarian bloodletting partitioned many parts of the country along religious lines. Diyala's capital, Baqouba, also is the self-proclaimed seat of the insurgents' caliphate.

"I think that is why al-Qaida wants that province so very much, because it is 'a little Iraq,'" Hertling said. "It gives them access to Baghdad and it also ... is considered their caliphate capital."

Comments

Tom Miller 6 years, 4 months ago

goodgawd, max...enough with the linkage...

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Just remember that in all societies there are people of unthinkable extremes." -SteelHorseRider

http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/McVeigh/beattieclosing.htm A decorated war hero! He is sworn to protect America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. They threatened to try his sister with treason and see that she received the death sentence. He is here today because he has tried to protect those he loved. http://www.jonesreport.com/images/181206_mcveigh_1991.jpg

http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HF06Ak01.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13974639/ Soldiers say officers commanded them to 'kill all military age males' in Iraq

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/colin3.html "I recall a phrase we used in the field, MAM, for military-age male," Powell wrote.

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SteelHorseRider 6 years, 4 months ago

Oh yeah.... case in point is the when extremists hung the the Black Water guys mutilated from the bridge????

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SteelHorseRider 6 years, 4 months ago

Just remember that in all societies there are people of unthinkable extremes.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Bush hating, blame America crowd and I must emphatically state, the anti-Americanism is utterly astounding on this one." -right_thinker

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official." -Theodore Roosevelt

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/2/ 'You're a traitor!' yelled the boy. 'You're a thought-criminal! You're a Eurasian spy! I'll shoot you, I'll vaporize you, I'll send you to the salt mines!'

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Note to military guys kill em" -justfornow

http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sergeant came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

Sunday, July 30, 2006 http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25264&l=i&size=1&hd=0 The Washington Post "I came over here because I wanted to kill people." At the time, the soldier's matter-of-fact manner struck me chiefly as a rare example of honesty. . . The next time I saw him, in a front-page newspaper photograph five months later, he was standing outside a federal courthouse in North Carolina

6 October 2006 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5414396.stm A Navy medic has told his court-martial in California how US marines seized an Iraqi civilian, threw him into a hole and shot him in the head 10 times. The medic said Mr Awad, 52, was put in a hole. He testified: "I knew that we were doing something wrong. I tried saying something, sir." But he said a marine told him to "quit being a pussy".

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Note to military guys kill em, that way we don't give the weak a chance to run you or Bush down." -justfornow

December 20, 2007 http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s01-woiq.html Though General David Petraeus, US commander in Iraq, expected to detain 40,000 individuals during the troop surge, only 30,000 have been detained so far. Top US officers, however, now worry that many these detainees are moderates who may radicalize and become part of a microinsurgency if US run prisons don't change their course.

December 20, 2007 http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jccXsygjzF_v3PELTPl7K7D4NYbQ The US military said on Thursday it had freed 100 detainees from Camp Cropper, the prison it operates near Baghdad airport, as a gesture of reconciliation during the Muslim festival of Eid al-Adha.

December 22, 2007 http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/415439.html When Leila Nasser was six months pregnant, U.S. soldiers burst into her house and wrestled away her husband, Mohammed Amin, asleep on the roof, trying to escape the summer heat. Amin was one of 15 detainees who would be released as part of a reconciliation program that the U.S. military's 1st Battalion, 28th Infantry Regiment put together in hopes of easing tensions in this divided neighborhood. More than 25,000 Iraqis are now in U.S. detention facilities. . . Most of those held are never charged with crimes.

Nasser said that there was no evidence linking her husband to Shiite Muslim militias. "They destroyed the house with us in it," she said of the U.S. soldiers. "The reason? Because he has a revolver, a revolver that he puts under his pillow to defend me and my daughter."

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

It's clear to me who is being stalked, now I understand how the American troops have felt these past few years.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"We pour a little bottle of water on a known terrorist poor little face and we have calls for trying W and Dick for war crimes,"

That's a one of the wispiest strawmen I've ever seen.

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Tom Shewmon 6 years, 4 months ago

I could only barely stand to quickly scan through the usual suspects of the looney Bush hating, blame America crowd and I must emphatically state, the anti-Americanism is utterly astounding on this one.

We pour a little bottle of water on a known terrorist poor little face and we have calls for trying W and Dick for war crimes, and propose yet again more conspiracy theories and excuses why these barbarians do this.

You guys have a very Merry Christmas and I'm sure we'll be discussing the important events of our time in 2008.

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ukillaJJ 6 years, 4 months ago

The feds contract all kinds of jobs to civilian companies... Honeywell, Allied Signal, SPAWAR, NRL, ISI,......

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

I concede, I haven't the time or patience.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"I'm willing to undergo this treatment as long as you and bozo are able to administer the fun" justfornow

Well, since Republicans approve of waterboarding for interrogation purposes, let's have Ron Olin administer the treatment. Your stalking accusations come under his jurisdiction, and Olin is a reputed terrorism expert. Bozo and I might go too far.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"don't feel comfortable there, sorry."

Have you already undergone torture treatments there? PTSD much?

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

I'm willing to undergo this treatment as long as you and bozo are able to administer the fun, I want to see what the fuss is all about, Just not at riverfront park, don't feel comfortable there, sorry.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

" If you were in front of me I guarantee that this would not be going on." -justfornow

Woooo....... I'm so afwaid! Nothing would give me more pleasure than to say what I have written directly to your face.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"I'm feeling that I'm talking to 2 walls."

Somehow I have a feeling that you do quite a bit of that sort of thing.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Bush in his bully pulpit is even influencing max1." -just_another_bozo_on_this_bus

But, just ask "justfornow" -- waterboarding isn't torture. I don't know why he objects to undergoing that procedure. After all, he is an accused stalker. Oh sure, a few people die from waterboarding, but so do people who ski and skydive.

December 15th, 2007 http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13934.html Graham's effort to protect Bush's torture policies directly contradicts his recent anti-torture rhetoric. Just this week, Graham raked Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, over the coals for refusing to call waterboarding torture, even if done by Iranian "secret security agents" on an American pilot. In October, Graham hinted that he might oppose Michael Mukasey's nomination unless he said waterboarding was illegal. But after Mukasey continued to refuse to explicitly call waterboarding torture, Graham reneged and helped push Mukasey through the Senate.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

You two are freaking NUTS, If you were in front of me I guarantee that this would not be going on. Hide behind your keyboards.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

OK I'm starting to become concerned, I'm feel stalked and I'm feeling that I'm talking to 2 walls.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"You're willing to water board a fellow American for his views,"

Bush in his bully pulpit is even influencing max1.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"I thought torture was the ultimate sin" -justfornow

To some it might be, but, I thought torture is a fun activity for you right-wing types, so it is only fair that you should enjoy both sides of that activity.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

You're willing to water board a fellow American for his views, I'm at a loss for word's. I thought torture was the ultimate sin, I'm trying to understand, help me.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"So now water boarding is OK with you?" -justfornow

I'll make an exception in your case. Stalkers shouldn't have protection under the Geneva conventions. It's off to Abu Grab-ass for you.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

I suggest we waterboard "justfornow" until he comes clean and admits to being a stalker.
So now water boarding is OK with you? You guy's are something else, you just can't win.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Anywhere with the exception of riverfront park for the water boarding, let me know. And as far as torture by extremist go, what goes around will eventually come around.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"justfornow in attempt to distract from being outed as a stalker (while ignoring the article in the process." -just_another_bozo_on_this_bus

I suggest we waterboard "justfornow" until he comes clean and admits to being a stalker. Who knows-- "justfornow" might even admit to being the missing link in the McVeigh terrorist plot.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

Got anything to say about the article, justfornow?

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

I stand behind my post's 100%, call them like I see em. Being called a stalker by bozo, now that's just not right.

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littlegrace 6 years, 4 months ago

Denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimisation) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference).

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Kathy Getto 6 years, 4 months ago

Torture is torture and terrorism is terrorism. Pace said it best - Bush & Co has no courgage, no brains, and no honor. All should be tried as war criminals. Justfornow - you really should check your anger at the forum door, it doesn't bode well for intelligent discourse.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"As far as being a stalker:well that's a new one. Now back to the article,"

says justfornow in attempt to distract from being outed as a stalker (while ignoring the article in the process.)

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posessionannex 6 years, 4 months ago

Rabble rousing about al-Qaeda's use of torture is akin to getting on the soapbox about the dangers of Cancer.

Maroon

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Can't help but know your posting schedule as your on m-f 8 to 5. As far as being a stalker...well that's a new one. Now back to the article.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

I'm flattered that you are trying to learn my schedule, but I don't want a stalker, thank you. Not even an anonymous one that knows nothing about me whatsoever.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

KU's internet use policy has nothing to do with me.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Logic, I'm really surprised, didn't expect to hear from you until Monday after eight am. I know K.U. has a Internet use policy, probably should read.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"You get off your high horse Logic, have you read the Internet use policy at your work? I could set my watch by your post's, you can't be very productive at work, Stop screwing your employer. You Sit there at work and run the military and Bush down all day, you weasel. You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Shut up and get back to work."


Don't be such a busybodied jack@ss, justfornag. You don't know anything about me, so your judgement is worthless.

I also thought it was kind of funny when you made fun of another poster for using an ad hominem right after you just finished using one on me. Your baseless opinion about me has no more to do with the topic at hand than did mancityfooty's comment on your grammar.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

If you can't get your spelling or grammar right, then it just makes you look like a third grader. mancityfooty,

If you criticize others while doing the same, It kinda makes you look like a dumb ass.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

mancityfooty, You like those Question marks, don't ya.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Usually when you have no argument to make you start attacking the other's grammar and spelling, I guess some things never change.

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solsken66 6 years, 4 months ago

Al-Qaida is a threat to all humanity. They are not looking at being on friendly terms with nobody who goes against them. They will force their rules and extreme beliefs on others through harsh intimidation or just out right kill those who don't follow their doctrines exactly. I think the people in Iraq are realizing that they can group together to defeat al-Qaida. Al-Qaida will not go away if America pulls out of Iraq. Iraq needs the support of the international community to establish a solid government before pulling out and leaving these people at the mercy of al-Qaida. Al-Qaida would enjoy the opportunity to kill as many Americans as possible on American soil if given the chance again! May all the service man and women stay safe and continue helping the iraqis improve their lives.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

Some of you really need to use a spell check on your stuff? Nobel? Isn't it "noble"? If you can't get your spelling or grammar right, then it just makes you look like a third grader.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

"our Military are [sic] involved in a Nobel campaign..."

Are they going to win a prize?

I support the troops by wanting them all home safe. And I don't think we should leave because it's our fault everything there is messed up. How many car bombs did you hear about when Saddam was in charge? What you repubs just don't get is that we shouldn't be there in the first place.

"I'm just tired of the "neighbors" that run the President ... down all day..."

What were you doing when Clinton was president? More of the same? It's only vicious attacks when they happen to your party, isn't it?

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

I'm just tired of the "neighbors" that run the President and Military down all day everyday except weekend's. The same old sh-t is getting old. I have no doubt that our Military are involved in a Nobel campaign and will succeed, no thanks to the bozo's that just don't get it.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"The U.S. soldiers are required to give the terrorists food, water, blankets, and pillows. I got this information from an actual soldier (my husband) in Iraq who had to guard the terrorists." -jgragg

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-10-10-3938087264_x.htm "Ultimately, we want all detainees who are no longer a peril to Iraqi and coalition forces to be released," [Maj. Gen. Douglas M. Stone] said, adding that about 60 people are detained each day across Iraq. Most detainees are held in limbo where few are ever charged with a specific crime or given a chance before any court or tribunal to argue for their freedom. Of those who receive a proper trial, about 50 percent will be acquitted, the military says.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

You get off your high horse Logic, have you read the Internet use policy at your work? I could set my watch by your post's, you can't be very productive at work, Stop screwing your employer. You Sit there at work and run the military and Bush down all day, you weasel. You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Shut up and get back to work.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

"Does our lord God let some suffer? Does not our Lord GOD require us to rise up against those that are evil? What you suffer from is "convient christianity". You appear to only be a believer wthen it is convienent?"

How convenient that there are plenty of others out there that are evil, yet we didn't invade them. And maybe things would be better if God would come down off that lofty throne and clarify some things.

"Mancityfooty::They rotated guard duty."

Not trying to pick a fight, but that means either they weren't terrorists, or on their way to a jail. Otherwise, they were still held against their will.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"Don't give pitty to terrorists and dont try to prove me wrong, unless you have been in the same situation as my husband and his buddies."


First, I never said that your husband and his fellow soldiers didn't have to give those things to their captors. What I did was point out that the fact that we do this for our captives is part of what makes us better than terrorists.

I suspect that part of the reason they are required to do this is because they can't definitively know which ones are actually terrorists and which ones aren't. It's not like they walk around wearing nametags, and I'm sure that middle easterners are fairly hard to differentiate from each other to Western eyes.

Please don't play the "my so and so family member is over there" argument, as I've had a brother in law and a cousin serve time in Iraq. I get so tired of other people trying to play that trump card as if it somehow makes you more qualified to have an opinion on the occupation in Iraq.

BTW, why is it that I have to have "been in" the same situation as your husband to be able to comment, but you only have to be married to someone who has "been in" that situation? Get off your high horse.

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jgragg 6 years, 4 months ago

Mancityfooty......They rotated guard duty.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Why do you hate America so much?

What a joke.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

"This isn't backgammon"

That is the part these idiots do not get. Thank you Spacystaci for your post.

"What would Jesus do?"

Does our lord God let some suffer? Does not our Lord GOD require us to rise up against those that are evil? What you suffer from is "convient christianity". You appear to only be a believer wthen it is convienent?

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

"if our guy's would just put a bullet in a forehead. Note to military guys kill em, that way we don't give the weak a chance to run you or Bush down."

Why do you hate America so much?

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

Look terrorist are Evil, we wouldn't be having this conversation if our guy's would just put a bullet in a forehead. Note to military guys kill em, that way we don't give the weak a chance to run you or Bush down.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

No restraints at all then? What was to stop them from running off?

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jgragg 6 years, 4 months ago

They werent in jail..they were all outside.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

I'd rather sleep anywhere than in jail. Besides, that was his job. Getting paid for it.

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jgragg 6 years, 4 months ago

logicsound04....I want to correct you. The U.S. soldiers ARE REQUIRED to give the TERRORISTS food, water, blankets, and pillows. I got this information from an actual soldier (my husband) in Iraq who had to guard the terrorists. While they sleep with blankets and pillows my husband and the rest of the soldiers sleep in full gear on the ground with their heads rested on their rucksacks. Don't give pitty to terrorists and dont try to prove me wrong, unless you have been in the same situation as my husband and his buddies.

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

"Spacy" is right.

"Anyway even if it was us torturing Iraqi prisoners who cares? How many of our people have they maimed and killed."

An eye for an eye? Do you want us to be on the same level as them? Why do you hate America?

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Staci Dark Simpson 6 years, 4 months ago

Well it is war. Doesn't torturing prisoners go hand in hand with war? THats why we are there to find these hell holes and rid them of the extremeists that run them. Anyway even if it was us torturing Iraqi prisoners who cares? How many of our people have they maimed and killed. All is fair in love and war. This isn't backgammon

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Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

Wow, asbestos is sure a symbol of the high standards now apparent in the US. "Let me tell yoiu [sic] something, 100 of "theirs" is not worth on of "ours". If it took hanging up 100 islamic extremists and gutting them while alive to get information to protect one of our soldiers or citizens, I am all for it." What would Jesus do?

And Agnostick: the only reason the locals kept it quiet was fear of reprisal. In a lawless country, anything could happen to them. And if they haven't left already then they probably don't have enough money to leave.

But a question for the rightwinger repubs on here: if waterboarding isn't that bad, then why doesn't it happen when congress questions someone. Mukasey for instance. If he had been waterboarded at his hearings, he would have given more of an answer as to whether or not it was torture.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

Well, unfortunately, even with all the modifying they did to this forum, they still don't have an "edit comment" feature.

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:

typo

Should read: "Nor CAN everything:"

Hey it happens, not a big deal and definitely not worth another post to correct.

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Sandra Willis 6 years, 4 months ago

Oh my, I read the link you posted to - after reading that, Our military does torture on it's own members - I completely believe it does.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

Last sentence:

""I think that is why al-Qaida wants that province so very much, because it is 'a little Iraq,'" Hertling said. "It gives them access to Baghdad and it also ... is considered their caliphate capital.""

Nuf said.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

No angostik, Bernice is spinning. THe issue is that the people are scared and that there are torture camps, and the AMERICANS seem to be th only ones that are wanting to endi it.

That is the story!

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

Yes I did read the article, in length. It is not about American military or government torture.

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Agnostick 6 years, 4 months ago

Still haven't read the whole article, have you, Asbestos? ;)

--Ag

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

Good lord Logic, you are a raving maniac. You state we are a democracy, then in the very same sentence accuse of electing terrorists. IF that is what the masses want, then so it goes.

Remember this article was about the enemy's rtorture room with bloody knives and a boxspring connected to a battery.

Far and very far removed from waterboarding.

You anr a raving idiot, and cannot analyze properly or read.

Before you have another idea, check your "moral equivelancy", and trun your magic lazer beam of perceprtion on yourself, and you will wee just how unbalanced that view is.

You let the islamic extremists off the hook, but a reasoned, legal, and necessary interrogation process with oversight (remember there are tapes) utilized by the United States to collect informationto first protect slodiers, and then our citizens you go off on a tangent.

Let me tell yoiu something, 100 of "theirs" is not worth on of "ours". If it took hanging up 100 islamic extremists and gutting them while alive to get information to protect one of our soldiers or citizens, I am all for it.

You idiots do not have a clue about the enemy.

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Agnostick 6 years, 4 months ago

justfornow, that's par for the course. One side hates Bush, the other side screams "You hate America!!" Probably none of them have one day of military service in their background. SSDT ("Same s**t, different thread").

beatrice kinda "gets it" at 10:50am. Yes, it is big news that Al Qaeda was able to sneak in and "set up shop" more than three years after "Mission Accomplished!"... and keep their operation going for a year.

As...

the local citizens...

kept it...

all...

quiet.

All the bombs in the world... all the boots on the ground... all the financial help... is a waste of energy in fighting terrorism, as long as the local gentry are complacent in allowing it.

I think that one day, something will happen...

A parent or sibling will walk into a youngster's room, and come across some training materials and paraphernalia from a local terrorist cell. That person, upon finding the stuff, will run--*RUN*--to the head of the household. HoH will then take this "budding terrosist" over their knee, give 'em a good, old-fashioned spanking... grab 'em by the ear, and march them down to the local police station, turning in their own child and all the terrorist junk found in the room.

The day this happens... that's the first day that we begin to really win the War On Terror.

That day... and not one day sooner.

jgragg, thanks to you and your husband for doing "the hard job."

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com http://www.uscentrist.org http://www.americanplan.org

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justfornow 6 years, 4 months ago

It's amazing to me how many fellow Lawrencians that post while not reading the article. It's just shameful.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"You shoot off your big mouth about the US using torture, yet you are not as loud regarding articles such as the above written."


That's because it's understood that torture is bad when the terrorists do it.

Yet, on the other side, we've still got people defending the U.S.'s use of torture, so it is far from understood that it is wrong.

Rabble rousing about al-Qaeda's use of torture is akin to getting on the soapbox about the dangers of Cancer.

BTW, people's "problem with me" is not that I'm not being vocal enough about torture, it's that they can't understand why I don't take the barbaric eye-for-an-eye mentality that permeates a large number of the American sheeple.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"You shoot off your big mouth about the US using torture, yet you are not as loud regarding articles such as the above written."

It's like this, kneejerk. We live in a supposed democracy. We are supposed to be concerned about and involved in the actions of our government. Some of us happen to believe that you can't effectively fight terrorism by becoming just like them.

And the last I checked, we don't elect foreign terrorists. But some of you did elect our current cabal of domestic international terrorists, and some of us are doing our best as citizens to rectify that situation.

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kneejerkreaction 6 years, 4 months ago

Here's the problem logicsound04.

You shoot off your big mouth about the US using torture, yet you are not as loud regarding articles such as the above written.

That's why people are upset with you.

Since you don't seem to be able to figure it out for yourself, I'll spell it out for you.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"You idiots forget that we are not just rounding people u and waterboarding them. We do not torture anyone. "

Tell that to Maher Harar.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

typo

Should read: "Nor CAN everything..."

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"Everything cannot be solved by wearing paisley and smoking joints."


Nor an everything be solved by wearing fatigues and smoking guns.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"Well, it looks as if the "long term effects" are subjective, and only from one source."


If by "subjective", you mean "based on medical expertise", then yes.

========================================

"IF they are in the position to be "coercly interogated" they have done bad things to be there in the first place."


Oh, I see we're using the model where the only evidence of guilt is that the police/military take an interest in you.

Are you familiar with the term "circular logic"?

Here's an example: The police are interested in him because he's guilty because the police are interested in him.

=============================================

"Your moral compass has magnetic aberations if you are upset about what the US does, and you say nothing about the other guys."


You seem to be missing a key point in my argument. Here is a summary of my position, with as few big words as possible, so as not to confuse you, asbestos:

Torture is wrong.

And for a bit more explanation--since I believe torture is wrong, it applies to any party who utilizes it. In other words, it is wrong when al-Qaeda does it, it is wrong when the U.S. does it, it is wrong when my next door neighbor does it, and it is wrong for me to do it.

============================================

"You idiots are enablers of barbaric behavior"


Says the "genius" who is defending torture. Do you know what "enable" means? Or maybe you don't think torture is barbaric?

BTW, asbestos, you might want to cut down on the number of typos, names, and hyperboles you use before you accuse others of being "deranged". Your posts come off as very frantic and agitated.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"Do NOT compare their torture tactics to ours."


Sorry, but there aren't "degrees" of torture. Either it is or it isn't. And torture is wrong, no matter who is doing it. You obviously think it is wrong for the terrorists to torture people--what changes, other than the torturer?

===========================================

"The soldiers were required to give the prisoners blankets, pillows, water, and food. Do you think they do they same for their prisoners?"


Probably not--which is part of what makes them terrorists. And yet you want us to use the same tactics. Interesting. I'm still trying to see what distingiushes the two situations...

===========================================

"Dont ever disrespect our military and make them look like the bad guys"


I am not disrespecting our military by requiring that they hold themselves to a higher standard than terrorists. If they are doing the same things the bad guys are doing, then what, in your mind, separates them from the bad guys (other than the flag they fly)?

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kneejerkreaction 6 years, 4 months ago

lounger (Anonymous) says: Sadly I never thought I could relate to the pain of hearing about my countrymen using torture-but I now have a shame in relating to this story. I cant wait for G.W. Bully to be out of office.


So, you are Iraqi? You moron.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

The politics of the 60's hippy years is alive an well in Lawrence. No forward thinking here, only yesterday's empty rhetoric ignoring today's complexities.

Everything cannot be solved by wearing paisley and smoking joints.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

"Water-boarding Water-boarding or mock drowning, where a prisoner is bound to an inclined board and water is poured over their face, inducing a terrifying fear of drowning clearly can result in immediate and long-term health consequences. As the prisoner gags and chokes, the terror of imminent death is pervasive, with all of the physiologic and psychological responses expected, including an intense stress response, manifested by tachycardia, rapid heart beat and gasping for breath. There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water. Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD. I remind you of the patient I described earlier who would panic and gasp for breath whenever it rained even years after his abuse."

Well, it looks as if the "long term effects" are subjective, and only from one source.

You idiots forget that we are not just rounding people u and waterboarding them. We do not torture anyone. HOWEVER, the islamic extremists DO round up even innocent people, and DO torture and murder them.

YOU guys are the ones that hate Amercia and do everything you can to discredit us and to undermine our protections. We are not waterboarding boy scouts here, we are takeing the "worst of the worst" and putting them in extreme discomfort.

IF they are in the position to be "coercly interogated" they have done bad things to be there in the first place. Unlike all the islamic extremists that want to stone a woman for getting raped, hauling in non middle eastern people in and hacking their legs off.

So SPARE ME YOUR MORAL OUTRAGE! Your moral compass has magnetic aberations if you are upset about what the US does, and you say nothing about the other guys.

It is ugly in war, and yes sometimes you have to take in a really bad guy and give him the once over to find out what he knows. I would not leave that up to you wimps, but I would make sure it was done if it needed to be done to protect me and to protect you, even though YOU disapprove.

You idiots are enablers of barbaric behavior, and judging waterboarding as equal to hacking off arms. legs, or stoning a rape victim is incoherent with your supposed outrage.

Remember this thread was about "the artifacts left a disturbing tale of brutalities inside a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq torture chamber."

This was the enemies, all you putzes can complain about is the United States. We are trying to STOP this sort of thing.

Put your political derangement syndrome on hold for a minute.

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jgragg 6 years, 4 months ago

Are we forgetting these people are not only killing OUR OWN but also Iraqi civilians. Do NOT compare their torture tactics to ours. My husband and his company have captured extreme terrorists and the leading arms dealer in northern Iraq. The soldiers were required to give the prisoners blankets, pillows, water, and food. Do you think they do they same for their prisoners? Let's not forget about the soldiers who were captured in March. One soldier was tortured and beaten so badly that they had to take his DNA to identify him. Dont ever disrespect our military and make them look like the bad guys. If there are less Al-Quaida then there are less civilian and military deaths.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Well I am sure if Baghdad was "ethnically cleansed" we would have heard about it from Red Cross and CNN, and the like." -asbestos

Sep 10, 2007 http://www.newsweek.com/id/40755 Baghdad's New Owners Shiites now dominate the once mixed capital, and there is little chance of reversing the process. Thousands of other Sunnis like Kamal have been cleared out of the western half of Baghdad, which they once dominated, in recent months. The surge of U.S. troops-meant in part to halt the sectarian cleansing of the Iraqi capital-has hardly stemmed the problem. The number of Iraqi civilians killed in July was slightly higher than in February, when the surge began.

According to the Iraqi Red Crescent, the number of internally displaced persons (IDPs) has more than doubled to 1.1 million since the beginning of the year, nearly 200,000 of those in Baghdad governorate alone. Rafiq Tschannen, chief of the Iraq mission for the International Organization for Migration, says that the fighting that accompanied the influx of U.S. troops actually "has increased the IDPs to some extent."

http://www.iraqredcrescent.org/whoweare.html The Iraqi Red Crescent was founded in early 1932 by Mr. Arshad Al-A'omary, the Municipal Governor of Baghdad to create a Red Crescent organization. Two years later we joined the membership of the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

Asbestos, you are correct that no studies have been done on waterboarding, as the problem of finding the people to study still exists. As I pointed out, the government doesn't even want video of these techniques to come out, let alone any evidence that might point to waterboarding being torture.

What we do have, is traditional medical knowledge about the body, and how it would react to such a punishing episode. Here is the testimony of one such doctor's medical expertise:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/070925/akeller.pdf

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

"Well I am sure if Baghdad was "ethnically cleansed" we would have heard about it from Red Cross and CNN, and the like." Asbestos

What cave have you been hiding in? The fact that Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed and the rival sects have been walled off has been reported by major news sources for months now.

"What is your point?" -asbestos

My point is -- the US is now arming former al Qaeda insurgents, and you are delighted we are doing it.

November 25, 2007 http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2937104.ece It was 9.30am when three men entered Haidar Musa's sweet-shop and shot him repeatedly in the head as his eight-year-old daughter Zainab crouched in terror behind the counter. . . By midday his stricken wife Kahiriya had packed Zainab and four other children into a car with a few possessions and fled their home . . . Asked when she intended to leave this squalor and return to the comfortable family home, Kahiriya Musa, 30, is emphatic. "Never," she declares. "They will kill me if I return." While one of her husband's killers has been arrested, she says, the other two have joined the Baghdad Brigade, a Sunni militia funded by the American forces which now holds sway in her old neighbourhood. The US military is delighted with the results achieved by the brigade in Abu Ghraib and by similar groups in other former "hot spots" of sectarian conflict that have seen a sharp decline in violence. For Shi'ites such as Kahiriya Musa, however, a Sunni militia represents another potential source of terror in a country where millions have been traumatised by ethnic cleansing. Last week I entered the western Baghdad district of Ameriya by crossing check-points manned by the eager "knights". Not only had some of them been members of groups aligned with Al-Qaeda eight weeks ago, but they had now created a virtual enclave surrounded by concrete blast walls. . . Some wore sinister masks, however, and observers are asking how long it will be before they turn on their Shi'ite counterparts when the Americans start reducing their troops next year. . . even Sunni residents see trouble ahead. In an Ameriya school last week some of the knights showed that although they may have switched allegiances, they still hold the fundamentalist beliefs that drew them to Al-Qaeda in the first place. Abu Omar, an intelligence officer with the Baghdad Brigade in Abu Ghraib, was candid. "Of course the coming war is with the [Shi'ite] militias," he said.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

al-Qaeda should be stopped.

I just wish our policy reflected that need.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"When are you guys gonna grow a spine and become americans?"


Says the terrorist.

I'm sorry, accusations of "anti-american" are fairly meaningless coming from someone who condones the behavior of terrorists.

Why do you hate the United States, asbestos?

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beatrice 6 years, 4 months ago

BD: "I guess Sadaam and al-Quaida are just misunderstood ..."

I guess some people are so thick they refuse to acknowledge that Sadaam had nothing to do with al-Qaida. There was no al-Qaida presence in Iraq until we arrived and destabalized the government. The al-Qaida cells recently discovered were opened one year ago.

Nobody is saying al-Qaida is just misunderstood, so quit with the asinine petty games. They are evil and need to be stopped. Many of us, however, are arguing that the way we have gone about it so far has not been effective and ill-advised and ill-prepared.

Why won't people admit we never should have gone into Iraq? Do you hate American soldiers that much that you don't care if they die for the greed of oil companies? (Yes, I threw that last line in there to show how stupid such comments are. We are all Americans and we need to act as such.)

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

"http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db90: In some areas, hundreds of ex-Sunni insurgents and even a few Al Qaeda-linked fighters are on the US military's payroll as neighborhood guards: The group of fighters is accused by Shiites of planting roadside bombs aimed at both US and Iraqi forces. They are also thought to be responsible for displacing Shiite..."

What is your point there max? Is it that islamic faith people are incapable of haveing peace, and are only capable of kiling each other?

What is your point?

"Don't taze me bro!"

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

Right Max, I listened to the NPR tripe. DId you hear the commenter stating that the reason violence was down so muc in Baghdad was that the "ethnic cleansing" is complete?

Well I am sure if Baghdad was "ethnically cleansed" we would have heard about it from Red Cross and CNN, and the like.

The NPR is absurd and a lap dog for the Far lefties, and needs to eithe have funding cut, or open it up to the other sides of the debate. All NPR can report is the lefty POV, which is not necessarily the same view of the DNC.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

26 Nov 2007 http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/SODA-79C2UY?OpenDocument In some areas, hundreds of ex-Sunni insurgents and even a few Al Qaeda-linked fighters are on the US military's payroll as neighborhood guards. . . The group of fighters is accused by Shiites of planting roadside bombs aimed at both US and Iraqi forces. They are also thought to be responsible for displacing Shiite families from the block known as the "Janabat" historically, most of the residents there are from the Sunni Janabi tribe and killing many Shiite residents in the rest of Amel by sniper fire. But now, each member of the group is paid $300 a month and issued a badge by US forces stationed nearby that allows him to carry weapons. The Sunni guards have even turned the home of a displaced Shiite family into their makeshift command center . . . a main point of contention for Shiites is the Sunni guards now on the US military's payroll. . . "I find the US military's solution foolish and simplistic ... they are putting fuel next to fire," says Alaa Oweid, another lawyer, who has shunned the proposed reconciliation council. "What's the logic of rewarding the criminals by paying them, dressing them in uniforms, and telling them to protect the neighborhood?"

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BigDog 6 years, 4 months ago

Some of the crowd here hates Bush so much that they try to ignore the article's content. This was an al-Quaida facility used to torture and kill those who opposed them.

Some of this same crowd are the same people that saw the US having dogs bark at jailed terrorists, playing loud music and making people stand in uncomfortable positions as torture. I guess listening to Michael Jackson music over and over is on the same plain as strapping someone to a metal bed frame and shocking them

I guess Sadaam and al-Quaida are just misunderstood by some Americans. Much like some didn't get Hitler either.

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max1 6 years, 4 months ago

Keep in mind, the so called "al Qaeda in Iraq" is actually composed of native Iraqis of the Sunni sect.

December 21, 2007 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17495029&ft=1&f=3 The U.S. military struck deals for peace with Iraqi militias on all sides and in the process gave up on religious reconciliation.

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bobberboy 6 years, 4 months ago

After reading all you Lawrencians posts I feel sick and I think I need to throw up. Way to go !

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

"Waterboarding has shown to cause long-term respiratory deterioration. Does that not qualify as "maiming"?"

I am not aware of ANY study that has the "health effects" of water boarding. IT is done so seldomly, that the cohort population is not even big enough to draw conclusions on.

What you got was a "study" from some anti American group.

When are you guys gonna grow a spine and become AMERICANS?

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beatrice 6 years, 4 months ago

Did anyone notice that the torture cell had been in place for about a year now? That means al-Quida was able to set up shop and control a region three and a half years AFTER we entered the country. In other words, it took an American presence in Iraq before al-Quida could take control of areas of the country.

Instead of fighting a war against "terror," we should be concentrating on finding and fighting against "terrorists." In a land lacking in WMDs, we now have al-Quida terror cells. Instead of focusing on Osama and the terrorists, we allowed oil companies blinded with greed to dictate our foreign policy. Heck of a job, neocons, heck of a job.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"YOu guys are afraid of the US using "coerced" interrogation that does not kill and does not maim."


Waterboarding has shown to cause long-term respiratory deterioration. Does that not qualify as "maiming"?

As for the fact that our torture doesn't kill--I certainly hope you're right, but the fact that the government is falling all over itself to destroy the evidence of these "enhanced" interrogation (see: torture) techniques makes one at least WONDER if some captives may have died. After all, there isn't much accountability when you can detain people without cause and never release their names or the fact that you are holding them.

==========================================

"Mind games and Psy-ops are necessary to give the illusion that we kill people to get info"


I'm all for coercsion, deciet, and misdirection to entice a terrorist to talk. In fact, when I've suggested those tactics as an alternative to torture, I've been laughed at and derided for "wanting to coddle the terrorists" or some other hyperbolic version of my viewpoint.

It's been pointed out that a terrorist who is fooled into a sense of security is far more likely to spill his guts than one who is being faced with the very thing he hates about the U.S. with every passing breath. Torture just hardens the resolve of these ideologues, confirming their already misguided beliefs that the U.S. is the devil.

==========================================

"The US, using coerced interrogation does it only when there is a threat, and it results in no dead bodies, no blood, and they get 3 hot meals after they cooperate."


Again on the dead bodies--there is no possible way we could know if victims of torture have died in captivity. Do you honestly think the U.S. government would come clean if this did occur? I'll reiterate that I hope you are correct, but I can't help but remain skeptical.

As for the three hot meals, I think you may have a severely naive view of how we treat these captives.

===========================================

"However every one interrogated in the US lives, and usually gets a lawyer."


Yes, if they are lucky enough to be held on U.S. soil, they have a slightly better chance of receiving due process. However, most of them are kept on non-U.S. soil in an attempt to sidestep violation of international and U.S. law.

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pace 6 years, 4 months ago

I am against torture. I hate that the extremist did it. I really hate we do it. I want to be better than those people. Torture is a terrorist act. It it a sign that our administration has neither courage, honor or brains.

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powershopper 6 years, 4 months ago

ksdivakat - Try reading my post again. Civilian companies do not contract out the US government. The US government contracts out civilian companies. Perhaps merrill had the right idea but the incorrect symantecs. However, it looks like he was trying to say the former rather than the latter....if that makes sense to you. :)

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Dollypawpaw 6 years, 4 months ago

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:

"having water splashed in one's face"

-

Oh, do you feel like you're drowning when you get some "water splashed in your face"?

No?

Well, then you must be an idiot.

How did these wonderful souls that you are protecting get into the fix that they are in?

If I knew the evil Bush was going to torture me I would not behave in a way that would get me captured.

Too bad for the dumbarse that gets captured.

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bobberboy 6 years, 4 months ago

P.S. lounger I would be ashamed to call you my countryman.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

Way to regurgitate that spoon-fed pablum, Asbestos.

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bobberboy 6 years, 4 months ago

P.S. lounger and merrill - are you guys really Americans or a couple of Islamic fruit cakes ? Because your understanding of the facts shows you have been clearly brainwashed. If I were you - I'd have myselfs committed or if you can't bring yourselfs to doing that at least try and cut back on the dope. JeeeZZ !!

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Flap Doodle 6 years, 4 months ago

The "Blame America First" crowd is in full cry this morning.

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ksdivakat 6 years, 4 months ago

powershopper (Anonymous) says:

Merrill - Federal agencies don't "contract" out to civilian run companies.


Please tell me that you are joking right?? 1 word....haliburton!!! the Federal government contracts haliburton for all things military!!!

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bobberboy 6 years, 4 months ago

lounger and merrill get your big fat ostrich heads out of the sand. Read the article - it said nothing about U.S. torture tactics - it's a Al Queda torture facility - you know - where Al Queda terroists torture people - like the ones where they cut off heads on TV for the rest of us to watch.

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ASBESTOS 6 years, 4 months ago

Folks this article is about a room that the bad guys ran, not us. The people we are fighting are running this torture chamber, and Merril and lounger show their stupidity by immediately harranging The US.

Go take one in a rolling doughnut. YOu guys are afraid of the US using "coerced" interrogation that does not kill and does not maim. Mind games and Psy-ops are necessary to give the illusion that we kill people to get info, nothing could be further from the truth.

You anit war anti US idiots needto give it a rest.

Remember the bad guys we are fignting are currently using torture and will continue to use torture. They use it for political influence, not for intel gathering, and it works as it you see the entire village kept this quiet.

That is the difference between "Coerced interrogation" and "torture". The torture groups leaves bloody knoves, and beds with batteries hooked up to them and mass graves.

The US, using coerced interrogation does it only when there is a threat, and it results in no dead bodies, no blood, and they get 3 hot meals after they cooperate. The forces they are subjected to are loud music and cold environments, and at the most harshest waterboarding. However every one interrogated in the US lives, and usually gets a lawyer. THe bad guys leave mass graves and people broken.

The moral equivelancy is not even close,

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"I was against the troop surge at the start, but I have to admit that it does appear to be working, at least in the short term."

It's probably had a minor effect, but it's mostly just coincidental. The real reason for the decrease in violence (to a level that is still appallingly high) is that the country has been turned into a collection of mafia-like fiefdoms which has brought on a very dysfunctional "stability." Militias and street gangs rule, and the Shiite-dominated government is mostly powerless because of infighting between rival Shiite factions and distrust by the Sunnis who are mostly locked out of the government. The Kurdish north has been an almost independent country since well before the invasion.

The only potentially unifying force is an almost universal desire among Iraqis for the Americans to leave, which means that US service members will dying in relatively high numbers for as long as they are there, and the longer they are there, the more they will be resented.

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Haiku_Cuckoo 6 years, 4 months ago

Sickening article. Those people are animals.

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Das_Ubermime 6 years, 4 months ago

"Heartening news that another nest of al-Q vermin is being cleaned out. Although it is hidden between the lines (as usual for msm), these discoveries are further evidence that the troop surge and tactics of clearing and area-denial are still working well in forcing al-Q into smaller and smaller 'safe zones', which are then eliminated, usually with the help of a now-invigorated civilian population and Iraqi police and military forces."

I was against the troop surge at the start, but I have to admit that it does appear to be working, at least in the short term. This is good news and if it continues to be successful, I'll be more impressed with Bush than I think I ever have been.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"No, worse, he knows what he said is a lie. he tried to change the facts to fit his agenda. A cold calculated liar is much worse to me than an idiot."

But that makes him eminently qualified for a position with BushCo.

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americorps 6 years, 4 months ago

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says: "having water splashed in one's face" - Oh, do you feel like you're drowning when you get some "water splashed in your face"? No? Well, then you must be an idiot.


No, worse, he knows what he said is a lie. he tried to change the facts to fit his agenda. A cold calculated liar is much worse to me than an idiot. He is a disgrace to all things American.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"When did we begin hanging people in public from construction cranes?"

"We" don't need to. "We" can just blow them to smithereens from 30,000 feet.

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Flap Doodle 6 years, 4 months ago

"...we can no longer claim to be better than they are..." When did we begin hanging people in public from construction cranes?

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SettingTheRecordStraight 6 years, 4 months ago

Some would say this account reveals why America should leave Iraq. I say it's a reason we should persevere there.

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logicsound04 6 years, 4 months ago

"having water splashed in one's face"


Oh, do you feel like you're drowning when you get some "water splashed in your face"?

No?

Well, then you must be an idiot.

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blackwalnut 6 years, 4 months ago

With the highest people in our government promoting and defending torture, we can no longer claim to be better than they are. Torture is indefensible, regardless of who does it.

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Marion Lynn 6 years, 4 months ago

lounger:

Did you even READ the article?

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macon47 6 years, 4 months ago

red is positive, black is negative go for it

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75x55 6 years, 4 months ago

Heartening news that another nest of al-Q vermin is being cleaned out. Although it is hidden between the lines (as usual for msm), these discoveries are further evidence that the troop surge and tactics of clearing and area-denial are still working well in forcing al-Q into smaller and smaller 'safe zones', which are then eliminated, usually with the help of a now-invigorated civilian population and Iraqi police and military forces.

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Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho 6 years, 4 months ago

Sadly I never thought I could relate to the pain of hearing about my countrymen using torture-but I now have a shame in relating to this story.

Agreed, because everyone knows that having water splashed in one's face is every bit as bad as being electrocuted, cut apart and hung from hooks.

Oh the humanity!!

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powershopper 6 years, 4 months ago

Merrill - Federal agencies don't "contract" out to civilian run companies.

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Flap Doodle 6 years, 4 months ago

merrill, you could be a totally clueless drone pounding out hyperbole & baseless drivel. Oh, wait, you are.

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Richard Heckler 6 years, 4 months ago

This could have been a CIA unit easily contracted out to Blackwater Inc.

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lounger 6 years, 4 months ago

Sadly I never thought I could relate to the pain of hearing about my countrymen using torture-but I now have a shame in relating to this story. I cant wait for G.W. Bully to be out of office.

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