How can teddy bear offend fundamentalists? / LJWorld.com

Archive for Thursday, December 6, 2007

By Leonard Pitts Jr.

December 6, 2007

Just to make sure I've got this straight: Their God is threatened by a teddy bear?

As in a plush, cuddly doll in the shape of a bear? As in the glass-eyed figure children sleep with for security? We're talking teddy bears as in teddy bears? A teddy bear has offended their God?

Lord, have mercy.

You're familiar with the story that has me venting, right? If not, strap in. This one will have you reaching for your blood pressure pills.

It seems that last week in Sudan, Gillian Gibbons, a 54-year-old British teacher, was arrested. Her offense? She brought the aforementioned teddy bear in and asked her class of 7-year-olds to give it a name. The kids considered Abdullah and Hassan but finally settled, overwhelmingly, upon Muhammad. Muhammad is one of the most common names in that part of the world, so it was not unlike if American kids named a bear "Joe."

Unfortunately, Muhammad is also the name of the man Muslims revere as a prophet of God. So when some parents heard about the bear, they called authorities. Next thing you know, Gibbons was hauled in. The charge? Insulting Islam. The potential penalty? Six months and 40 lashes.

Justice, if that's what you want to call it, apparently moves quickly in Sudan. Gibbons was arrested on a Sunday. She was indicted that Wednesday, convicted that Thursday and sentenced to 15 days. That Friday, hundreds of Sudanese took to the streets in protest - not, as you would hope, over the stupidity of the entire affair but, rather, at what they saw as the leniency of the sentence. See, they wanted the death penalty.

If it makes you feel any better: according to a published report, many of the protesters were government workers who had been ordered to take part in the demonstration. Anyway, on Monday of this week, the president of Crazyland - excuse me, Sudan - pardoned Gibbons and she flew home.

Throughout her ordeal, she has maintained that she respects Islam and has asked that people not think ill of the faith because of this. Which is exactly right. Islam is not the problem. Fundamentalism, however, is. And that, as we should know from our own experience, is a mindset that is not confined to one faith.

To the contrary, every faith has them, these rigid doctrinaires who would sacrifice their very humanity for the fool's gold of theological purity, these people so eager to live the literal law of their holy books that they miss the point of those holy books, shedding compassion, kindness and plain common sense along the way. Worse, they are always literal about the wrong things, always literal about passages in holy writ that they feel empower them to punish, judge, ostracize and condemn. Never literal about the passages that require them to give, forgive, serve and stand humble.

As I said, it's a failing common to fundamentalists, but that failing has seldom been more galling than here. We are, after all, talking about Sudan, a nation that was embroiled in civil war almost constantly from the time it gained independence in 1956 until a peace treaty was signed in 2005. More than 2 million people died in that war, more than 4 million were displaced.

And then there is Darfur, the western region where four years of government-backed genocide has left an estimated 200,000 people dead. Some might say they are the lucky ones. Luckier than the man whose eyes were gouged out with a bayonet. Luckier than the people burned alive inside their huts. Luckier than the women raped so brutally they can no longer walk, so brutally that urine trickles constantly down their legs.

What a pious, holy nation. Their God is offended by a teddy bear.

If anything, God is offended by them.

Leonard Pitts Jr., winner of the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for commentary, is a columnist for the Miami Herald.

Discussion

LJWorld.com doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post.
Read our full policy. Also, read about banned accounts and harassing comments.

6 December 2007
at 9:39 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Puggy (Anonymous) says…

Wow. Ethnocentric much? Let's try for a little cultural relativism here.
6 December 2007
at 9:40 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Puggy (Anonymous) says…

Just because westerners have freedom of speech does not mean you have to exercise it making fun of other beliefs.
6 December 2007
at 10:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

badger (Anonymous) says…

Hm.

This is kind of an oversimplification of the matter. The government wasn't 'threatened by a teddy bear'. It's the violation of a prohibition in Islam against naming things after their prophet. Mind you, I'm not sure why it's OK to name your *kid* Mohammed, but not his teddy bear, but if it's the law the teacher should probably have acquainted herself with it, and explained to her students that they should choose another name, because using that one violated the beliefs of some students in the class.

That said, I think states where the national laws are established by the rules of a dominant religion are a bad idea. I think Sudan has a lot bigger problems than teddy bears (like those mentioned by Pitts later in the article). And I think that we should be a lot less outraged at a 15-day jail sentence for a woman who didn't take the time to learn the laws and customs of the country she'd be teaching in than we are at the hundreds of thousands of people killed and displaced in Darfur.

If I go to another country, I should expect to follow their laws. An Amsterdam resident, coming to the United States, shouldn't expect to be allowed to purchase and consume marijuana, and would receive a jail sentence if he were found to do so. Saying, “I didn't know it was illegal here,” is no excuse.

This is why people working in other countries should receive a thorough education on the local customs and laws. For example, I recently found out that in parts of China, offering the bellboy a tip can be a criminal offense; if he's in the Communist Party any offer of money other than a strict exchange for services can be considered an attempt to bribe a Party member. In other parts of China, tips to government officials are required as a cost of doing business. Bribing a Mexican border guard is incredibly illegal; bribing a Mexican police officer is standard practice. Knowing those things will help keep you out of trouble, and not knowing them before you go work in a country is just foolish.

I'm glad she's all right, and I think the calls for her death were mostly political posturing, but I hope that her embassy considers the matter carefully and works harder to educate travelers on local concerns in the future.
6 December 2007
at 10:31 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Let's not all be ignorant, like Mr. Pitts.

This incident was the result of a malicious person, using the legal system in place with all it's flaws, to bring down a perceived enemy, that was not even the accused teacher. Gillian Gibbons was just collateral damage.

And what's up with this obfuscation by Pitts to start equating rigid Sharia law with the now-overly-generic term of 'fundamentalist'? “Fundamentalist” as a word has been so abused that it now functions as nothing other than a ragged shibboleth of the anti-religious.
6 December 2007
at 10:46 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Universe (Anonymous) says…

Here's the dirty little secret (that escapes most people). It's impossible not to offend someone, somewhere… So, Merry Christmas.
6 December 2007
at 10:54 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

livingstone (Anonymous) says…

It's real but true. Western countries simply don't understand middle east! You cannot go to a country and ask them to adopt your kind of democracy and freedom immediately. Slow change is needed, and it must come from the inside of the country. The Bush leadership (and most of the Presidential candidates so far) have oversimplified the situations in Iraq and Afganistan. Will they adopt democracy? Yes, those people who are educated in Western countries would like to have democracy in their countries (and of course we listen to them most of the time). However, most of the people in those countries are not “educated” on democracy and how it should function. So you get hardliners like Saddam, Garddafi around to suppress the entire population. We're stucked with balancing between supporting the undemocratic governments or allow free elections but inject uncertainties (like getting the current Iranian President elected) or making the entire Iraq in a chaotic situation right now.

Then, you get a bunch of the so-called “conservative” folks running around accusing my viewpoints being too “democratic” and “liberal”. And calling me “liberal idiot”. These folks think they know the region a lot. Yes, we can go ahead to say they're stupid, crying over a teddy bear (and of course, I don't mind my son naming his teddy bear Jesus Christ or Buddha). But these countries are bounded by irrationality, and it's not easy to change their thinking in one or two generations. The same is reverse. They don't understand why our older women here like our school children so much, and thought that we should impose their Sharia law in this country too! The media is not reporting that the majority of the older women in this country is not like those few older women and we don't need a Sharia law but better psychologists to treat these sick people. If they don't understand us, do we understand them? We thought we're a powerful nation and democracy will help solve all their problems. Our ideal is not working well.

This teddy bear case clearly highlights the ideological difference between the western democracy and the middle eastern culture is distinct. Those who migrated here and hold more “liberal” point of views are the minority in their countries, so it really doesn't reflect the real situation over there. We can continue to accuse them of being ignorant and accuse their fundamentalists. Are we able to change the millions of people who are brought up in this way? NOPE.

Why don't some politicians become smarter? Well, they're just saying the things their crowd want to hear (or someone here said that they normally vote for someone whom they want to go for beer with). The solution for terrorism? Didn't Ron Paul just tell us part of the solution? And he got booed by his own party member?
6 December 2007
at 11:08 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

funkdog1 (Anonymous) says…

badger said: “Mind you, I'm not sure why it's OK to name your *kid* Mohammed, but not his teddy bear, but if it's the law the teacher should probably have acquainted herself with it, and explained to her students that they should choose another name, because using that one violated the beliefs of some students in the class.”

Oh, come on. It's not possible to acquaint yourself with *every* law in a country you're visiting. Heck, how many of us know *all* the laws here? She made a simple cultural faux pas, nothing more. And the people of the Sudan should have known that and given her a slap on the wrist warning first. For that matter, if it's such a serious offense, why didn't the KIDS know better? Shouldn't they have known their parents were going to go nuts over such a “heinous” act?

The people around that teacher overreacted, plain and simple. Plus, how many foreign teachers will now think twice about going to the Sudan?

6 December 2007
at 11:20 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

sdinges (Anonymous) says…

In the original article I read on CNN about this case, it said there was no specific prohibition or law against creating an image of or naming something after the prophet. Images of the prophet are generally considered offensive, regardless.

The article also said that the children of the class chose the name, among various possibilities, because the most popular kid class was called Mohammed.

I can't really confirm the truth of that report from CNN, though.
6 December 2007
at 11:49 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

jonas (Anonymous) says…

“Puggy (Anonymous) says:

Just because westerners have freedom of speech does not mean you have to exercise it making fun of other beliefs.”

What in the world are you talking about? Did you read the same article as everyone else?
6 December 2007
at 12:04 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

funkdog1 (Anonymous) says…

“Something tells me that if a woman was conceivably to be whipped for offending some christian group in a town in Kansas with some arcane law, the responses on this forum would read a little differently.”

Uh, yeah, they sure would. Are you saying that conservative christian groups *should* be whipping people who offend the almighty?
6 December 2007
at 12:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

75x55 (Anonymous) says:

“Fundamentalist” as a word has been so abused that it now functions as nothing other than a ragged shibboleth of the anti-religious.
___________________________________________________

Not terribly unlike the more-recent use of the word “liberal”…

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
http://www.americanplan.org
6 December 2007
at 12:14 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Teddy bear? Feh!

Let's get one of these…

http://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-…

Dress it up in a little turban… put a collar around its neck with a little tag that says “Mo-HAM-med”

Now we're havin' some fun!!!!!!!!!

—Ag
6 December 2007
at 12:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Confrontation (Anonymous) says…

“Their God is threatened by a teddy bear?”

I'm pretty sure “their” God is the same God that turns many Christians into psychos.
6 December 2007
at 12:34 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Or 'agnostic'.
6 December 2007
at 12:50 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Or even worse, “Centrist!”

Amen, Reverend!! Preach, bruthah, preach!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGo9Xe…

“… and God Bless the United States of America!!”

—Ag

6 December 2007
at 1:05 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

dorothyhr (Dorothy Hoyt-Reed) says…

The teacher made a cultural faux pas. Why didn't one of the parents just go to her and educate her about the mistake she made. I'm sure she would have apologized, changed the name of the bear, and taught the children that they couldn't do this. Why didn't the kids know they couldn't use that name? I guess the parents did a poor job of teaching the kids their own culture. What about tolerating others lack of knowledge about culture, especially when that name is used for boys all the time.
Frankly, I think the real issue is she let the kids vote on the name. Let's not introduce that democracy stuff. They are suppose be trained to do as they are told, not have an opinion.
6 December 2007
at 1:09 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Confrontation (Anonymous) says…

posessionannex (Anonymous) says:

>>I'm pretty sure “their” God is the same God that turns many Christians into psychos.

“Ah, yes. I live in mortal terror of Christians.”

**I'm sure BTK could update you on psycho Christians. Mark Miller has some spare time on his hands (and knees), too. Your buddy, Phelps, has some signs you can borrow.
6 December 2007
at 1:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

badger (Anonymous) says…

” It's not possible to acquaint yourself with *every* law in a country you're visiting. Heck, how many of us know *all* the laws here? She made a simple cultural faux pas, nothing more. And the people of the Sudan should have known that and given her a slap on the wrist warning first. For that matter, if it's such a serious offense, why didn't the KIDS know better? Shouldn't they have known their parents were going to go nuts over such a “heinous” act?”

The prohibition is fairly well-known if you know anything about Islam. And if you're going to be working with the native population in a country governed by Islamic law, it's a good idea to have an idea of Islamic law, or at least for your government to have informed you of things like “Don't draw the prophet” and “these are the specific prohibitions on women's behaviour in this country” and “these are the penalities for violations of sharia law.”

The children were 7. That's the age at which most religions *start* teaching their children the detailed laws of the religion, not an age at which they could be expected to know it well enough to challenge an authority figure. Yes, I'll concede that perhaps the parents should have educated the teacher instead of prosecuting her. So, the next time someone from outside the country gets caught with marijuana, the cops should 'educate' him instead of arresting him? How about a visitor driving without a license or insurance who gets caught driving under the influence? DUI or education on our differing cultural values?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and some countries have a very harsh view of lawbreaking. If you're going to work in one of those countries, you need to familiarize yourself with those laws. This wasn't precisely her fault alone. It also represents the failure of her government to ensure that she was adequately prepared for working in the Sudan. Perhaps a religious offense is 'no big deal' in the UK or US, where a variety of faiths coexist, but that doesn't require that it be 'no big deal' elsewhere.
6 December 2007
at 1:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

dorothyhr (Dorothy Hoyt-Reed) says…

I still think Pitts makes a good point. There are horrible things happening in the Sudan and other parts of Africa. Why don't they take to the streets over the rapes, genocide, disease. Their priorities are all wrong, regardless of what religion they are. And if ignorance of the law is not an excuse, then the children should be executed. Weren't they ignorant of the law, because of lack of religious education, just like the teacher? I respect Islam, but most people I have met who practice this faith would have taken the time to educate the teacher, not punish her. He is ranting about fundamentalism, not Islam.
6 December 2007
at 2:09 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

day (Anonymous) says…

When the original story broke it said that the woman was teaching at an exclusive and high priced English language school…

OK so consider this. The children didn't know about the restriction, because the parents of most of them are the “Western educated” minority in their own country.

The bear, along with a notebook, went HOME with several of the children. The notebook explained the class project and gave the name of the bear. It didn't become a problem until the bear went home to a “conservative” family.
6 December 2007
at 2:16 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

heysoos (Anonymous) says…

I was thinking about naming my teddy bear “Jesus Christ,” but the fundamentalists scare me too much to dare such a thing…
6 December 2007
at 2:40 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…

I was thinking about naming my teddy bear “Jesus Christ,” but the fundamentalists scare me too much to dare such a thing:
=========
Why are you scared? I don't ever recall seeing Christians packing the streets calling for the death of someone because of newspaper cartoons or teddy bears. If that was the case, they would have made a fuss over items like this:

http://www.mcphee.com/items/10746.html
6 December 2007
at 2:45 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

kansas778 (Anonymous) says…

posessionannex (Anonymous) says:

>>Plus, how many foreign teachers will now think twice about going to the Sudan?

All of them. That's the point of the demonstrations.
**********************************************
PA is the only person on here to get what's really going on. This has nothing to do with a stupid teddy bear, this is just one more excuse from these xenophobes to get westerners and our influence out of their country. As expected, several people take the bait, and start going on about cultural relativism, implying that it is OUR fault for not understanding them. That if WE tried harder to learn their ways, these kinds of things wouldn't happen. This of course completely ignores the fact that the teacher did not name the bear. There are some absolutes when it comes to cultures, and this is plain old xenophobia under the guise of religious righteousness.

6 December 2007
at 2:48 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

heysoos (Anonymous) says…

Hey! I own something very similar, and they were outraged!
http://www.bobbleheadstore.net/bobble…
6 December 2007
at 2:53 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

kansas778 (Anonymous) says…

I find it particularly amusing that some try to justify the actions of muslims by making negative comparisons to the worst among christians, as if any misbehavior on the part of christians creates an immunity from all criticism for any and all other religious believers. Xenophobia and intolerance are wrong no matter what your religion is or where you live.
6 December 2007
at 3:01 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

sdinges (Anonymous) says…

Day: “It didn't become a problem until the bear went home to a “conservative” family.”

Although they originally believed that a parent had complained, it came out in trial that a co-worker had in fact been the one to report the bear to religious authorities. If I recall, it was a secretary at the school. The principal was saddened by this, because the situation could have easily been handled in-house if this person had only voiced their concerns there, either to the teacher or to the principal.
6 December 2007
at 4:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

50YearResident (Anonymous) says…

When freedom of religion allows and makes death threats for naming a teddy bear after a religious leader then freedom of religion needs to be restricted to non-violent religions only!
6 December 2007
at 4:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

It was not their or our god,as they are they same, that was offended but the people. That is all I have to say. Well for now.
6 December 2007
at 5:07 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

coolmom (Anonymous) says…

the children named the bear. 40 lashes for the children.
6 December 2007
at 5:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

As a Muslim American I am deeply offended. I am outraged at the following post and the racism exhibited by this poster. I demand that he/she be banned from your site for the racist comments made about muslims and about the religion of Islam. This is not funny and we do not find it funny, intelligent or responsible.
The KU Muslim association and the KU muslim law student association have been notified: http://www.msaku.com/
http://www.nmlsa.org/
=========================
Agnostick (Anonymous) says:

Teddy bear? Feh!

Let's get one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-…

Dress it up in a little turban: put a collar around its neck with a little tag that says “Mo-HAM-med”

Now we're havin' some fun!!!!!!!!!

-Ag
===============
This is way over the top and I have sent this post to several Muslim groups for action. How you can condone this posting and still allow this poster to stay is unforgivable. We may seek legal action.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/
http://www.americanmuslimvoter.net/
http://americanmuslim.wordpress.com/
http://www.amaweb.org/
http://www.amuslimvoice.org/
http://www.islamfortoday.com/american…
http://www.americanmuslims.info/
http://www.islamicity.com/
http://www.islamfaq.org/html/muslim_a…

We are also sending this to major news outlets, the Governors office, the State AG office and the City of Lawrence. This has been CC'd to Rep. Nancy Boyda's office, Rep Dennis Moore and Senator Brownback.

Ban this poster immediately.
6 December 2007
at 5:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…

Wow….I'm a muslim, and I have not been ashamed to say it (see my previous posts). I have always tried to defend Islam, but calling for a death penalty for the naming of a Teddy Bear by children is a little too much. We're supposed to be a religion of tolerance, but it's sad to see that tolerance does not go too far on issues so small as this.

Care about your neighbors, care about your elders, improve your surroundings, give to charity, etc. Once that is taken care of, everything else will take care of itself and should be an afterthought.

6 December 2007
at 8:26 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Faruk_Harzul (Anonymous) says…

Dear Agnostick,
Your comment is indeed offensive. We hope that you do not believe what you have written. We cannot expect to live together in peace if we cannot learn to respect each other and to respect each others beliefs.
We have a wonderful relationship with our community here in Boulder, Colorado. The University is an open, diverse institution that accepts, that embraces the differences between us. I have heard many good things about Lawrence, Kansas and of the University of Kansas. I don't believe you speak for them. We are all people, we are created to be a people of love and peace. Find it in your heart to change.

Peace be with you,

Faruk Harzul
University of Colorado Muslim Student Association
6 December 2007
at 11:16 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Looks like “Comrade Boris” is back, eh Conservaturd? :))

Keep up the freak show…

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
http://www.americanplan.org
7 December 2007
at 7:04 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

Faruk, do you believe that the death penalty is appropriate for apostasy?
7 December 2007
at 7:38 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

gayokay (Anonymous) says…

Oh Bob!
7 December 2007
at 7:49 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

ksfbcoach (Anonymous) says…

As usual, if most of you would research these stories more, maybe you wouldn't make such complete fools of yourselves when you post. As sindges said, it was a co-worker who complained. If you look further, you will see it was a FORMER co-worker. A woman who had been fired and had an ax to grind against the SCHOOL, not the teacher. This was the best she could come up with to mess with the school, and it worked, as the school has been closed until after the New Year, and there is the possibility it won't re-open. This former co-worker was the governments star witness at the teachers trial. So for all you people worried about not knowing the laws, cultural faux paus, etc., it had nothing to do with that in truth. No one was ever offended by the bear being named Muhhamed. But when it was brought to the Muslim governments attention, in order to NOT offend the Muslim extremists, they had to put her on trial. And please note that the president of the country quickly pardoned her as soon as he was asked, and she left the country. While there were some extremists who “on cue” acted all outraged over this, it wasn't really the problem. It was revenge. Revenge for being fired.
7 December 2007
at 9:06 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

” Xenophobia and intolerance are wrong no matter what your religion is or where you live.”

Tell that to BushCo, who have based their entire administration on it.
7 December 2007
at 9:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

I (heart) bozo. You can always count on him.
If LJW published a story on wheat weaving, bozo would find some way to drag his hatred for the President into the discussion.
7 December 2007
at 9:46 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

The story is about a government using religion to advance its agenda. Nothing better describes BushCo, and I think that was a very clear unspoken subtext of this story.

7 December 2007
at 10:07 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

kansas778 (Anonymous) says…

Bozo, I take it then that you fully agree that these people who wanted to put this woman on trial were completely in the wrong?
7 December 2007
at 10:18 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

storm (Anonymous) says…

I think dorothyhr has an observation that may be worth checking out about this culture…the teacher introduced democracy to the students…they're not allowed to think, only be told what to think.
7 December 2007
at 10:40 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

beatrice (Anonymous) says…

How can teddy bear offend fundamentalists?

I guess the same way wishing someone “Happy Holidays” can offend fundamentalists.

If you offer a view of life different from their fundamental, or basic, view of life, they get offended. It is kind of funny that “mental” is in the word, yet they rarely think about anything very deeply. In fact, they are neither fun nor mental, at least not mental in a good way.
7 December 2007
at 12:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

OnlyTheOne (Anonymous) says…

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: As a Muslim American I am deeply offended.

And I as an American American am deeply offended and saddened by events of September 11, 2001. However; unlike you, I have not chosen to demand all Muslims be banned, punished, extricated, deported, etc. based upon what some (some not one) did.
There seems, to me, to be a definite lack of reasonableness in your words.
7 December 2007
at 1:26 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

fairylight (Anonymous) says…

http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups…

does not seem to list a Faruk Harul on their page.
Could this be a made up post?

Faruk_Harzul (Anonymous) says:

Dear Agnostick,
Your comment is indeed offensive. We hope that you do not believe what you have written. We cannot expect to live together in peace if we cannot learn to respect each other and to respect each others beliefs.
We have a wonderful relationship with our community here in Boulder, Colorado. The University is an open, diverse institution that accepts, that embraces the differences between us. I have heard many good things about Lawrence, Kansas and of the University of Kansas. I don't believe you speak for them. We are all people, we are created to be a people of love and peace. Find it in your heart to change.

Peace be with you,

Faruk Harzul
University of Colorado Muslim Student Associ
7 December 2007
at 2:24 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

Fairylight, it's a pun.
7 December 2007
at 3:40 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…

OnlyTheOne (Anonymous) says:

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says: As a Muslim American I am deeply offended.

And I as an American American am deeply offended and saddened by events of September 11, 2001. However; unlike you, I have not chosen to demand all Muslims be banned, punished, extricated, deported, etc. based upon what some (some not one) did.
There seems, to me, to be a definite lack of reasonableness in your words.

==============================

I, as an American, and a Muslim as well, am saddened by the events of September 11 as well. However, you are generalizing a very complex topic.

YOU have not chosen that all muslims be punished, extricated, deported, etc. BUSH has chosen to go to another country (Iraq) and occupy it, cause terror when there was none, mutilate countless innocent citizens (on purpose or not and who happen to be muslim) and “coalition forces” with injuries that will last a lifetime. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not justifying 9/11/2001. I believe that war is NEVER an answer. But, extremists from both sides, unfortunately, think otherwise.
7 December 2007
at 4:25 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

“…cause terror when there was none…”
Don't know much about the Ba'athist party, do you?

7 December 2007
at 4:49 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

“Bozo, I take it then that you fully agree that these people who wanted to put this woman on trial were completely in the wrong?”

I'm in no position to judge them as “right” or “wrong.” However, any punishment beyond expelling her from the country can't be seen by any rational person as anything but excessive and abusive.
7 December 2007
at 6:43 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

b_asinbeer,
When the Branch Dividians were killed some tried to marginalize Christians as Extremists, but informed people knew otherwise. When Tim McVey bombed the Oklahoma Fed Center bigoted individuals attacks Christians, but again, informed persons knew it was only a few extremists. When 9/11 happened a few ignorant bigots blamed all Muslims, a few informed persons did not, they understood.

What we have is a bigot, a bully and a blogospere terrorist in Agnostick. He ridicules Christians and Muslims, he blasphomes both religions. He is the center of hate in this country. He is the leftist idealogue that blames Jews and condemns jews.

This forum should ban his bigotry. What are they waiting for? If a poster placed upon this or any thread a negative rant against blacks he/she would loose their privilages. But not Agnostick? I abhor the racist comments from this poster. He knows the incitement and anger he will produce when blasphemying the Prophets name by highlighting a pork product.

Moderators on this forum will ban me before they ban the bigot Agnostick. Why? Is the LJW supporting bigotry and racism? It appears so.
7 December 2007
at 8:08 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

supertrampofkansas (Anonymous) says…

I was thinking about naming my teddy bear “Jesus Christ,” but the fundamentalists scare me too much to dare such a thing:
=========
Why are you scared? I don't ever recall seeing Christians packing the streets calling for the death of someone because of newspaper cartoons or teddy bears. If that was the case, they would have made a fuss over items like this:
========

Jesus freaking christ!
7 December 2007
at 9:19 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

bondmen (Anonymous) says…

Sharia Law in America? You be the judge…
http://www.collegenet.com/elect/app/a…

Islamic Thinkers Society spokesman calls for Sharia law in America on Glenn Beck Show…
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/01…

Sharia in America by Ayesha Ahmed… http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/…
8 December 2007
at 7:54 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

Clearly the poster Agnostick either works on the LJW staff, is a moderator (as he was with CJ Online before he caused it to shut down its online community) or he is well connected with the LJW. (Journalist network)

Groenhagen, Conservativeman, and a host of other posters that have crossed his path, that have challenged him, have disappeared.

Award winning publication…..who is giving out the awards.

You have other Muslim's posting their disgust for the poster, yet he stays.
8 December 2007
at 9:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

pdecell (Paul Decelles) says…

cap,

I agree that Agnostick's comments were out of line but in our society we depend on the “market place of ideas” to weed people who make those sorts of comments out. Quite frankly you answered Agnostick in the best way you could in your original post by providing information to us in the form of the links to various Muslim web sites.

Getting back to the teddy bear issue, personally the whole thing strikes me as odd, and perhaps most Americans as odd, but what we forget is that we too have hot button symbolic things that set us off as well.

For instance, try burning an American flag and see the way many of us react. In the history of Christianity there have been huge fights over symbolism including how God is to be represented. The English word Iconoclast comes out of just such a fight. FYI I think these sorts of fights are odd too. But I am not immune to reacting to symbolism either. Books for me are highly symbolic and book burning or banning is way up there on the list of symbolic offenses one can make.

The point being that in our culture we generally chalk these sorts of offenses as the price we pay for the right to free expression and some one has to get really extreme before we consider banning them.
8 December 2007
at 3:34 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Clearly, the child-like cap10_insano (most likely another screen name for the mentally-deranged, threatening, and psychotic user most commonly known as “Conservativeman”) needs to stop throwing his little temper tantrum, take his ball, and go elsewhere.

Oh wait… she can't take “her” ball… it's not **her** ball, now, is it?

Let's assume, for a moment, that mistress_insano's more outlandish theories are true. Let's assume that I am, in fact, an employee of LJWorld, and World Media.

What the hell are you gonna do about it?

This whole thing is paid for… designed by… operated by… maintained by… funded by… steered by… and directed by World Media.

A private company. A private business.

Nobody here as paid any membership dues. Nobody here has given over a credit card number. Nobody here has signed a contract. Nobody here has a receipt—paper or electronic, real or implied—denoting any sort of payment, for goods and/or services rendered.

Essentially, we're here out of the goodness of their hearts. It's their dance floor, their band, their musical instruments. They get to decide who dances.

Don't like it? Go start your own message board.

To gypsynatalie's (plural) credit, at least they have the gumption to do *that*. All you can do, mistress_insano, is sit around and cry.

I'll guarantee you this, though… I'll make this solemn vow, promise, and oath:

Unlike you, Conservativeman/cap10_insano (and all the other screen names you've snuck in on, over and over again), if the owners and operators of this store tell me that they want me outta here, I'm outta here. Gone for good. I'll get out and, unlike you, I'll stay gone. I have the honor and decency to do that.

You, Consertiveman, have no honor. You have no decency. You have no morals. You have no spirituality. You have no shame.

Dan Cox, Joel Mathis: If you guys want me out, you know how to contact me. Just say the word, and I'm out. Gone. Vapors. History. Archives. “LJWorld” in my rearview mirror on the information superhighway.

That's a check you can take to the bank… and it won't come back.

Unlike Conservativeman, of course. ;)

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
http://www.americanplan.org
8 December 2007
at 5:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

No Agnostick, I am Babar, that is my Turkish name. You have been told to leave me alone. I have had fun on this community until you began lying about me and calling me names. You accuse me of being other posters, you know I am a man and you call me womanly things. You should be banned. You are a very bad man. Many others have also posted that you are a very bad person.

8 December 2007
at 5:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

Agnostick,
You have clearly violated the user agreement and the policies of this community. Your immunity is very suspicious, as is your familiarity with the names you use, they are on this site index. You should be banned.
8 December 2007
at 6:06 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Katara (Anonymous) says…

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says:

“No Agnostick, I am Babar, that is my Turkish name. You have been told to leave me alone. I have had fun on this community until you began lying about me and calling me names. You accuse me of being other posters, you know I am a man and you call me womanly things. You should be banned. You are a very bad man. Many others have also posted that you are a very bad person.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mrs. Drew?
8 December 2007
at 6:26 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

No right_thinker, the agnostick is like the vipers venom. Agnostick as poisoned everything and the only treatment is to start new. Agnostick must be banned.
8 December 2007
at 6:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

ralphralph (Anonymous) says…

My Teddy Bear is offended.
8 December 2007
at 7:16 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

johndodge4545 (Anonymous) says…

You got to love Leonard Pitts! He's going to say what he is thinking and his thoughts are so frequently right on the money. Like this column. Lighten up folks. What happened is absurd. Period. No religion supports this type of behavior or this kind of insanity / stupidity. It's a real straight forward thing here. Why read so much more into it? It is what it is.

Bravo Leonard!
8 December 2007
at 7:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

JohnDodge455 wrote:

“What happened is absurd. Period. No religion supports this type of behavior or this kind of insanity / stupidity. It's a real straight forward thing here.”

Marion writes:

Evidently Islam does or we would not be having this discussion!

Can you not READ?

english!

Do you speak it?
8 December 2007
at 9:24 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

johndodge4545 (Anonymous) says…

LIghten up Marion. Breath deeply. While you appear to be able to read you haven't a clue, do you?
8 December 2007
at 9:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Katara (Anonymous) says…

Marion (Marion Lynn) says:

JohnDodge455 wrote:

“What happened is absurd. Period. No religion supports this type of behavior or this kind of insanity / stupidity. It's a real straight forward thing here.”

Marion writes:

Evidently Islam does or we would not be having this discussion!

Can you not READ?

english!

Do you speak it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Apparently, you are the one with difficulties on reading comprehension, Marion. The discussion is about Fundamentalism.

Kindly note the title, “How can teddy bear offend —> fundamentalists<—?”.

If that wasn't a dead giveaway, then perhaps the following paragraphs would enlighten you to the actual subject better.

“Throughout her ordeal, she has maintained that she respects Islam and has asked that people not think ill of the faith because of this. Which is exactly right. Islam is not the problem. Fundamentalism, however, is. And that, as we should know from our own experience, is a mindset that is not confined to one faith.

To the contrary, every faith has them, these rigid doctrinaires who would sacrifice their very humanity for the fool's gold of theological purity, these people so eager to live the literal law of their holy books that they miss the point of those holy books, shedding compassion, kindness and plain common sense along the way. Worse, they are always literal about the wrong things, always literal about passages in holy writ that they feel empower them to punish, judge, ostracize and condemn. Never literal about the passages that require them to give, forgive, serve and stand humble.”

Hope that helps ;)

8 December 2007
at 9:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

I got it just fine.

See, the problem with both Xtianity and Muslim is that the Big Books are the literal word of the respective “Gods” or they are not.

End of story.
9 December 2007
at 4:01 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

My goodness, what big hate you have, girlfriend.
9 December 2007
at 8:26 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

The same anti-semite hate exhibited by Agnostick.

The hate mongers are exhempt from the rules. They get a pass to spew hate. I wouldn't be surprised if Agnostick is a Phelps. He did a piece on them years ago and probably joined them.
9 December 2007
at 9:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

fairylight (Anonymous) says…

How many cognomen have you used here? lolol
So, Agnostick makes an educated statement, sources what he states, tears apart your pitiful post, piece by piece…What is your gripe here. It's an opinion forum, Agnostick was on topic. There are no grounds for your whining.

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says:

The same anti-semite hate exhibited by Agnostick.

The hate mongers are exhempt from the rules. They get a pass to spew hate. I wouldn't be surprised if Agnostick is a Phelps. He did a piece on them years ago and probably joined them.
9 December 2007
at 10:18 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…

How can Harry Potter offend fundies?

How can a book offend fundies?

How can the existence of gays offend fundies?

And so on.

Luckily, the USA has a strong secular constitution and tradition that protects us from such nonsense drummed up by fundies.

Unluckily, Sudan does not.
9 December 2007
at 2:13 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Finding_Uranus (Anonymous) says…

Trolls? So the kooks that posts time after time about Bush and he is this and that, that is not baiting? Yes, and some of the few I see trying to fight back on this are the one labelled trolls. It looks like most of the liberals on this website are trolls, out to stir something up constantly.

I like the “contrary messages”statement. Liberals don't like those who disagree so they came up with a word for those—trolls.
9 December 2007
at 2:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

camper (Anonymous) says…

I can't see how a Teddy Bear can be offensive, but it apparently has. I am beginning to see how little I really know because my mind can't think of anything to say one way or the other. I can't even make a decent comment here. But nonetheless, I like to hear everybody's opinions.
9 December 2007
at 2:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

beobachter (Anonymous) says…

fu, not worshipping W as far too many trolls on this site do, does not make one a liberal.

9 December 2007
at 3:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

toefungus (Anonymous) says…

Good thing it was not a pull-my-finger bear!
9 December 2007
at 6:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…

is it me or has the thread sorta moved to attack mode and not comment mode?
9 December 2007
at 7:28 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

How can a poster (Agnostick) offend Islam?

Answer: By spewing racist hate and bigotry
9 December 2007
at 7:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

Newell_Post (Anonymous) says…

A Teddy bear can be offensive to fundamentalists because fundamentalists are all mentally and/or emotionally disturbed. Please note I said “fundamentalists” and not “religious people.” Anybody who believes in the absolute, unconditional truth of something which is unverifiable has a screw loose.
9 December 2007
at 7:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

marcdeveraux (Anonymous) says…

badger needs to wake up. if someone from amsterdam comes to a dozen or so states here in the u.s. he can in fact buy marijuana legally,here in calif , grow ops are allowed and in fact protected by the police. not only can you buy legally , home delivery is available, some counties in calif allow 25 plants per person. nuff said
10 December 2007
at 8:15 a.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

thebcman (Anonymous) says…

oh sweet heysoos, give agnostick a break .. the cute little stuffed pig was hilarious ! You all would be a little less uptight if you would allow some humor in your lives.
10 December 2007
at 7:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

Permalink

cap10_insano (Anonymous) says…

It doesn't work that way. Agnostick made a racist remark and bullies posters all the time. Agnostick is the most obnoxious poster here, is involved in name calling, stalking, and just about every prohibited activity and is not banned. Agnostick has an inside in the LJW.