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LJWorld.com weblogs Science Becoming Religion

Supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque Don't Get It

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President Barack Obama and New York officials don't understand that for many Americans, especially New Yorkers, building a mosque near Ground Zero is the equivalent of waving a Confederate flag at a Dr. Martin Luther King anniversary ceremony.

I have no interest in visiting a mosque because I'm not a Muslim. I wouldn't wave a Confederate flag because my great grandfather who was a sergeant in the 72nd Indiana Regiment in the Civil War might turn over in his grave.

I have nothing against those who wave the Confederate Battle flag (or Rebel flag) that Confederate soldiers carried when they were attempting to kill my great grandfather. (For those who don't know, the flag we associate with the Confederacy was initially only used on the field of battle.)

I realize that the privates and sergeants who wanted to kill my great grandfather were only attempting to protect their homes from an invading army. Like my great grandfather they were fighting because the politicians of their day couldn't find a peaceful solution to their controversies.

The Confederate flag may be a symbol of defiance of authority, but it isn't a symbol of racism. For many southerners it's a symbol of the willingness of their ancestors to risk their lives to defend their homes even in a losing cause. Southerners may have occasionally displayed their flag when protesting civil rights activities, but that was because they liked to display it on public occasions including parades and sporting events.

The Virginian I roomed with my sophomore year had a Confederate flag on the wall next to his bed, but he wasn't a racist. In fact he was studying to be a missionary to Africa and worked with black kids at a local church.

The white robes of the Ku Klux Klan and their practice of desecrating the cross by burning it are the real symbols of southern racism.

Many Americans have a negative view of the Muslim religion because the al Qaeda killers who attacked the World Trade Center claimed to be acting on behalf of the Muslim religion. The violent Muslims who use mosques to meet and plan terrorist actions may be a minority of Muslims, but they are the ones who get the publicity.

When many Americans think of Muslims, they think of terrorists. Many Americans fear that the violent Muslims might claim a victory, or even use, a mosque constructed near Ground Zero.

Nonviolent Muslims are the majority, but they don't get the publicity. Muslims who want to build near Ground Zero should delay plans to construct the facility until they can convince critics that nonviolent Muslims are the real representatives of Islam and the terrorists who murder Muslims and non-Muslims alike are not the real representatives of Muslims.

The Christian book of Revelation describes a person called the anti-Christ who is Satan masquerading as Jesus Christ. The Ku Klux Klan falsely claims to act on behalf of Christianity while furthering the cause of Satan . Nonviolent Muslims need to convince Americans that members of al Qaeda are the Muslim equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan who claim to be acting on behalf of Allah when they are really serving Satan.

Comments

ivalueamerica 4 years, 3 months ago

Yes, hitler, American Concentration camps for Japanese Americans, McCarthy...yes we need to learn that racists and bigots who try and justify their behaviour are really terrorists.

beatrice 4 years, 3 months ago

Yep, laughably stupid. This is basically claiming that rights are earned by convincing people you are worthy. Something like that, anyway. Stunningly stupid.

50YearResident 4 years, 3 months ago

Liberty_one, you seem to have a big chip on your shoulder. I am wondering just who do you represent?

pizzapete 4 years, 3 months ago

Al Queda is just like the Klan, doing the work of Satan and you wouldn't want Satan opening a church in your neighborhood now would you?

Liberty275 4 years, 3 months ago

The church of Satan is just a bunch of atheists that like to have catholic-like parody ceremonies and have sex. A church of Satan ceremony would be pretty entertaining. I say get rid of the kingdom hall and build a church of Satan next to the fairground.

At least Satan will let me get a blood transfusion.

geekyhost 4 years, 3 months ago

The Klan are actually Christians. You wouldn't want Christians opening a church in your neighborhood, would you?

grammaddy 4 years, 3 months ago

Such b.s.It isn't a mosque, it's a community center with prayer rooms. It's not at Ground Zero but rather about 3 blocks away.There IS a mosque directly across from Ground Zero that has been in operation since the 70's. I don't hear any demands for it's destruction.There have also been family members of 9/11 victims asking everyone to just coexist and let them build it.Looks to me like Freedom to worship only applies to non-Muslims. And we wonder why the terrorists think we are hypocrites.

50YearResident 4 years, 3 months ago

grammaddy, if it isn't a mosque then it doesn't qualify for "Freedom of Religion". So make up your mind, is it or is it not a Mosque?

madameX 4 years, 3 months ago

Thank you Liberty, that's what I was going to say.

Jeff Dean 4 years, 3 months ago

People do live there. It is only mostly commercial.

Muslims pray several times a day. This gives them a place to go do do that.

terrapin2 4 years, 3 months ago

No- It is NOT a mosque. Like they said it is a community center with a prayer room. You don't call a hospital a church just because there's a chapel for praying in it do you? Come on. Get over it already.

pizzapete 4 years, 3 months ago

I never thought of al queda as racists. I thought they were pissed at our government for being two faced and turning their backs on them. I still remember the good old days when the US propped up the taliban to fight them pesky Russians and Sadam Hussien was our buddy fighting them darned Iranians.

Reason McLucus 4 years, 3 months ago

Actually the members of al qaeda are equal opportunity murderers. They murder Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Kirk Larson 4 years, 3 months ago

No, you don't get it. People like you abandoning our basic principles out of fear. It is un-American. Thanks to people like you, the terrorists have apparently won.

50YearResident 4 years, 3 months ago

Thanks to opinions like yours, the terrorists are winning.

Mike Ford 4 years, 3 months ago

Long Island was the home of thirteen Indian tribes until the mid 17th century. The Shinnecock, Poosepatuck, and Montauk people remain three and a half centuries later. Communities like Nyack, Rockaway, and Montauk, on Long Island are named after tribes. It is laughable what Americans consider history in their short sightedness. Again the First Amendment allows the Klan at Skokie, the Klan to keep highways clean, Phelps saying his garbage, and Pat Roberts to say that Florida was hit by Hurricane Andrew because of gay people hired at Disneyland. It allowed my racist ex grandfather to say that Black quarterbacks weren't capable leaders as he watched Ell Roberson and KSU play Arizona State in a Bowl game eight years ago. My mentioning of the Fourteenth Amendment provoked him to take the hypocritical stand that most of these clowns have taken. As far as outrage goes, Indians in this country have to deal with Methodists who massacred Cheyennes and Arapahoes at Sand Creek, Baptists who stole the land for Ottawa, KS and the college from the Ottawa tribe and got them moved to Oklahoma as they stole the lands between 1867 and 1870, Catholics who emotionally and sexually tortured Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota children at boarding schools fomr the 1860's to the 1960's, and Mormans who blamed the Mountain Meadows Massacre in 1857 on Paiutes and Utes, and Shoshones, and then took most of the arable lands in the deserts from the tirbes. I could go on for a couple of more paragraphs but the what is outrage that is legit and slept under the carpet by the majority of a culture of idiocy and amnesia but the loudest and dumbest is what's in vogue now. Without further adieu, here comes the loudness after me....

tolawdjk 4 years, 3 months ago

I don't think it was Andrew. I think it was before Bonnie hit in '98 and Disney announced "gay Days" on the weekends.

Ken Lassman 4 years, 3 months ago

tuschka,

I really like to read your posts, which for me provides a much larger context to view most of these tempests in the ol teapot. Speakin of which, I was going through the Wakarusa bottoms the other night after a rain and the fog drifting up off the sun heated pavement was creating a bunch of what I'd have to call fog devils, like so many tribal children dancing on the ground where they lay. Haunting, yet beautiful, twisting and dancing in the night.

madameX 4 years, 3 months ago

It's not a mosque, but other than that I agree.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 3 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Liberty275 4 years, 3 months ago

We do get it.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

plivvy 4 years, 3 months ago

The most interesting thing about this is, regardless of what side you are on, that Americans are arguing (quite angrily based on what I'm reading) with each other about it. What happened to United we Stand? Isn't fighting about it just making it worse? If I were to be the Muslims wanting to build in that location, I personally would not do it out of respect for what happened there. That being said, I am not them and I can't do anything about it. So what's the point in fighting about it?

liberallibrarian 4 years, 3 months ago

"Nonviolent Muslims need to convince Americans that members of al Qaeda are the Muslim equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan who claim to be acting on behalf of Allah when they are really serving Satan."

So, does this mean that I, as a christian, need to convince my fellow americans that members of the Westboro Baptist Church are really evil-doers? What a ridiculous argument. Totally and completely ridiculous.

I used to live in New York. I lived there for many years- and for those of you who have never been there (and I have a feeling this includes many of the people opposed to the "Ground Zero" mosque), a building two blocks from the site might as well be in another town. The whole argument against the building of this mosque is ludicrous.

Mike Ford 4 years, 3 months ago

tsunami9320, you must really have a sense of american history..... your Christian ancestors forced Christianity on indigenous peoples.... all of the denominations I prevously mentioned forced their ideologies on indigenous peoples... they stole lands in the name of the christianity, they killed tribes in the name of christianity... the Dutch settlers who ran the indigenous peoples I mentioned off of Long Island were Christians in the 17th century. Evertytime I hear some wingnut religious chucklehead tlaking of bringing the faith to poor parts of the world with their supreme being attitudes, they're no different than the chuckleheads who converted tribes to christianity three centuries ago as part of the manifest destiny of fascism that this country is based upon. This blog is about the right of free practice of religion as gauranteed in the First Amendment. Except if you're Muslim. Except if you're indigenous to this land and the US Government turns missionaries loose on you who prohibit stomp dancing like I do as a Choctaw person, sundancing for Northern Plains indigenous peoples, and the Ghost Dance that Wovoka introduced in the 1880's that got Lakota people massacred at Wounded Knee. We didn't legally have protection of our religious sites until 1978 federally, and if a highway needs to go through the wetlands and disturb the prayer wheel and the deceased, you don't treat us any better than you treat the Muslims. I guess it's like the old days when the Bill of Rights only concerned caucasian immigrants.. that's what the conservatives, the state's rights racists, and the rest of denailists really want..... right?

seriouscat 4 years, 3 months ago

FYI: The literal definition of 'mosque' is 'a prostrate place'. It can be a huge building of splendor like a Cathedral, or it can simply be a piece of ground set aside for prayer.

Armored_One 4 years, 3 months ago

I don't care if it's a mosque, a racketball court or an antique store. The what is far from the key issue here, but both sides seem to have latched onto it like starving pit bulls with a side of beef.

Perception forms the basis of our reality, regardless of your country of origin, the color of your skin, or the type of music you listen to. Okay, not all reality, but our contextual reality, I should say.

If the radicals that perpetrated 9-11 perceive it as a victory, then there is nothing that will change that opinion. Allah could come down in person and say it's not a victory, and they would still cling to the belief that it is a victory.

When the kids are already wired, don't give them candy. Pretty simple, if you ask me.

The only question I want to ask is why that particular site.

verity 4 years, 3 months ago

"The only question I want to ask is why that particular site."

I'm guessing because they own and are already using this site, but the current building is not adequate.

geekyhost 4 years, 3 months ago

Al Qaeda is hoping it won't get built. It gives them better recruiting material. That's right. The Islamaphobes are on the side of Al Qaeda. http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/08/mosque_fight_helps_al-qaeda_sa.html

Stuart Evans 4 years, 3 months ago

"I'm led to understand"

that's the precise problem with the ardent believers on both sides of this issue and all of it's baggage before. They are being led into and through a belief system. Unfortunately, there comes a lot of violence and ignorance with it.

Stuart Evans 4 years, 3 months ago

I wonder if it will be segregated.. will the women have equal use of all facilities?

jonas_opines 4 years, 3 months ago

Maybe they'll take a cue from the surrounding area and do a Ladies Night.

Stuart Evans 4 years, 3 months ago

we should build a half mosque/half synagogue instead. and it will be used by both men and women, together! If we can get everyone to agree on that standard, would it be ok? oh, and how about just putting a huge christian cross on the front of the building, just to make everyone feel all warm & fuzzy.

This place so far has been as useful as a tire fire.

mbulicz 4 years, 3 months ago

"Nonviolent Muslims are the majority, but they don't get the publicity. Muslims who want to build near Ground Zero should delay plans to construct the facility until they can convince critics that nonviolent Muslims are the real representatives of Islam and the terrorists who murder Muslims and non-Muslims alike are not the real representatives of Muslims."

Let's run this statement through the 1960s machine and see what comes out:

"Nonviolent African-Americans are the majority, but they don't get the publicity. African-Americans who want to build near suburbs should delay plans to construct their houses until they can convince critics that nonviolent African-Americans are the real representatives of African-Americans and the criminals who rape white women and others outside their race alike are not the real representatives of African-Americans."

It's the same flawed argument wrapped up in this tidy little xenophobic package.

jonas_opines 4 years, 3 months ago

I don't think you really need to go all the way back to 1960 for that to ring true. Hell, you get about one of these posts on this forum every other week.

Lindsey Buscher 4 years, 3 months ago

Man there were a lot of type-os in this blog. Let me see if I can help...

Supporters of Christian Supremacy Don't Get It

Christian Supremacists don't understand that for many Americans, especially New Yorkers, building a mosque near Ground Zero is the equivalent not allowing Christians to build mega churches in Texas.

I have no plans to criticize New York because I'm not from there. I wouldn't wave a Confederate flag because my great grandfather who was a sergeant in the 72nd Indiana Regiment in the Civil War might turn over in his grave.

I have nothing against those who wave the Confederate Battle flag (or Rebel flag) that Confederate soldiers carried when they were attempting to kill my great grandfather because while I may disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it. As it goes for free speech, so it is for the freedom of religion.

I realize that the privates and sergeants who wanted to kill my great grandfather were only attempting to protect their homes from an invading army. Like my great grandfather they were fighting because the politicians of their day couldn't find a peaceful solution to their controversies, but I digress, what does this have to do with the Muslim Center controversy?

The white robes of the Ku Klux Klan and their practice of desecrating the cross by burning it are the real symbols of southern racism.

Many Americans have a negative view of the Muslim religion because the al Qaeda killers who attacked the World Trade Center claimed to be acting on behalf of the Muslim religion. The violent Muslims who plan terrorist actions may be a minority of Muslims, but they are the ones who get the publicity, which is why this whole issue is being blown out of proportion.

When some narrow-minded Americans think of Muslims, they think of terrorists. These same Americans are typically Christian Supremacists who believe we are fighting some kind of holy war with the Muslims and they fear that the violent Muslims might claim a victory, or even use, a mosque constructed near Ground Zero. This is where they are wrong.

The truth is that nonviolent Muslims are the majority, but they don't get the publicity. Muslims who want to build near Ground Zero should construct the facility in order to help convince critics that nonviolent Muslims are the real representatives of Islam and the terrorists who murder Muslims and non-Muslims alike are not the real representatives of Muslims.

The Christian book of Revelation was made up by people who thought they were communicating with the great spaghetti monster in the sky describes a person called the anti-Christ who is Satan masquerading as Jesus Christ. The Ku Klux Klan falsely claims to act on behalf of Christianity while furthering the cause of Satan. Nonviolent Muslims need to convince Americans that members of al Qaeda are the Muslim equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan who claim to be acting on behalf of Allah when they are really serving Satan.

2002 4 years, 3 months ago

It is downright offensive to compare this 'mosque' to the confederate flag. I'm a white, conservative middled aged male. The confederate flag offends me. The other, totally separate thing that offends me is Americans that claim to love freedom and liberty and have a problem with this mosque. By the way, I am also a Christian (not in name only, I attend a very conservative evangelical church regularly) and I am mostly offended by Christians that have a problem with this mosque. As Christians, we should praise the freedom that we have to worship and to express our opinions in public. America give us that opportunity and our fellow Christians in other countries are often not so lucky.

Truthspeaker 4 years, 3 months ago

I honestly wonder if the left side would be in such a rush to defend religious freedom if Fred Phelps decided it was time to open an actual chapter of the Westboro "Church" right across the street from the Harvey Milk statue in San Franscisco.

And before everyone starts nitpicking, I realize the analogy is going to be pulled apart without the actual idea behind it being discussed. And yes, I realize that most people are going to lie and say they wouldn't have a probelm with it.

Truthspeaker 4 years, 3 months ago

I'm sure just as "unrealistic" as most people thought that building a Mosque near Groud Zero would be.

beatrice 4 years, 3 months ago

TS, wouldn't a Catholic church across the street from a grade school be a better analogy?

You see, the vast, vast majority of Catholics aren't pedophiles, just as the vast, vast majority of Muslims in America (and the world) aren't terrorists. However, you are defining the majority on the actions of a fraction of a tiny minority. The Westboro Church, on the other hand, is only known for its hate mongering, and nothing else. You already know this, since you use quotation marks on "church."

So what other major group would you like us to brand as undesirable based on the deplorable actions of a few members? White men? I've seen White men do some pretty awful stuff, so we better not let them build anything -- ever!

jimmyjms 4 years, 3 months ago

This is unrelentingly stupid. Whoever wrote this should be shamed in public for their woeful understanding of the Constitution.

LJW, wtf? Can any monkey just throw whatever up here? Oh, wait - I forgot about the Saturday column.

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