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Women Priests Ordained

I'm a fan of Eileen Roddy. And her post commemorating Nelson Mandela on his 90th birthday is no exception. After contrasting Mandela's ideals of freedom and equality with the divisiveness we are experiencing in America, she offers this profound thought, ":I can be a channel for harmony or a source of discord." Ok, so I was feeling enlightened(ish) and resolved to be a "channel for harmony" from this day forward. But:then I read this article about three women who wanted to be Catholic priests:so they got two female bishops to perform the ordination ceremony:but the Church said it didn't count:but they said yes it did because the bishops were ordained by "all-male Roman Catholic bishops who are in good standing with the church"...but the Church said they would be excommunicated anyway:You get the idea.According to the article "Catholics who are excommunicated cannot receive sacraments. The penalty can be lifted if those who have been punished are sincerely repentant."By now the "source of discord" in me was starting to rear its ugly head. I hit the email-this-article-to-a-friend-button and began spewing in the add-a-personal-message box: Sincerely repentant?...or sincerely and passionately defended?... "Speak out," I told my fellow Catholic women. "Write a letter to the editor; contact your local bishop; wear a veil to mass on Sunday in protest:do it for your daughters and granddaughters."But then...I thought of Eileen and wondered, "What would Nelson Mandela do?":Ok, so I pushed the send button.

By Virginia Rigney

July 21, 2008

'Nuff Said

From the Citizen Journalism Academy

Discussion

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21 July 2008
at 8:37 a.m.

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Cityboy (Anonymous) says…

When will my church enter the modern era? I enjoy the Catholic mass and the fundamental teachings of the Church, but I do not understand why women and/or married individuals cannot become priests. I think it is high time the flock becomes the Sheppard and leads the church into the modern era.
21 July 2008
at 9:24 a.m.

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Phogfan86 (Anonymous) says…

As a cradle Catholic, it makes me sad to say that the Catholic Church in America will be dead in no more than 200 years.
21 July 2008
at 4:08 p.m.

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eileenroddy (Eileen Roddy) says…

Well, Virginia, I hate it when my words come back to bite me! I liked your question: What would Nelson Mandella do?The first thing he did was acknowledge the problem and the injustice behind it - blacks and whites were treated very differently, and the law allowed these injustices.The second thing he did was to equip himself to tackle the legal system in South Africa; he qualified as a lawyer. He then set out to correct the injustices/problems he saw, and was prepared to suffer the consequences.When he was eventually freed he was prepared to forgive his perpertrators, and then open a dialogue with them. Did he agree with them? No. Did he continue to work against injustice and say it was wrong? Yes. He, with others, eventually changed the injustice and the legal system which upheld it.With the situation in the Catholic Church, one could ask (even though it might sound a bit 'corny' now) - what would Jesus do? More importantly, what can Catholic women do?Acknowledge there is an injustice. Women do NOT have equal rights within the Catholic Church. This has been an ongoing problem since the third century.Many Catholic female theologians have argued the case from both Scripture, church history, and social justice perspectives to show why women, who feel called by God to do so, can become priests. Many of them have suffered deeply - loss of jobs, excommunication etc. Those women who see the deep injustice against women - including you Virginia - need to continue to equip yourselves to work to address this issue.The other injustice as I see it is that the option of dialogue is closed. The Pope has spoken and forbidden the conversation of the possible ordination of women to continue.The point I made about being the source of harmony or discord relates to the dialogue. If we could attack the problems and not each other, that might make a huge difference. If we can respect each other and truly enter into a dialogue - which includes speaking AND listening - we can enlighten each other, disagree with each other and then continue to work towards solving the problem/injustice.I know many will come back and quote Scritpure to justify why women cannot be ordained. We need to remind ourselves that even the devil can quote Scripture. As regards Jesus, what would he do? He certainly didn't refer to himself as a priest, and he was criticised for mixing too freely with women. He didn't say anything against the ordination of women, and the first person He appeared to and told to go and give the news of His Resurrection was a woman. Thanks for this post, Virginia; it certainly got some of my dormant brain cells going.
21 July 2008
at 9:57 p.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

wow eileen - thanks for the encouragement. your point about the lack of opportunity for dialogue is well taken. it is most frustrating to perceive an injustice and feel unable to voice it and the catholic church is most effective at squelching dissent.with the coming of the information age nearly everyone can have a voice, it is the dialogue that is missing.i am reminded of a young man i met a couple of years ago. he had directed the choir in his kansas city parish for years until a small but vocal group discovered he also sang in a gay men's choir. when i heard of the hundreds of loving parishoners who showed up to wish him well after his dismissal, i thought “that's sweet but where is the outrage?” i think cityboy has it right, it's going to have to come from the bottom up. it will be a great day when the catholic church steps into the modern era.
22 July 2008
at 9:11 a.m.

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eileenroddy (Eileen Roddy) says…

I think this is why I think so highly of Nelson Mandela, Virginia. He was an educated black man in a country ruled by whites and - somehow - managed to keep his hope alive. When I was in College in the early seventies, I was part of the student protest movement that tried to get Barclays Bank to pull its investments to white-only businesses. I remember going down to the Bank, opening an account - with 100 of like-minded friends. One week later, we made the same trip, made amidst great hoop-la explained that we were closing our accounts because of the injustices we felt the bank was encouraging with its white-businesses-only investments in South Africa. At the time, we felt pretty impotent, but, by the end of six months, 5,000 students had done the same thing. I know it sounds rather feeble, but, somehow I felt I had done something to help create the culture of change that eventually caused movement in South Africa.Martin Luther King once said that the sadness in Alabama wasn't that bad men did such horrific things, it was that good men did nothing.So I know what you mean when people do “sweet” things, but it takes something more of a voice to try and effect change - or, at the very least, to point out the injustices of the situation. This is the challenge - attacking the situation without resorting to personal attacks.You go Virgina! Are there any other women out there who can make some suggestions to help Virginia open up some sort of constructive dialogue about this issue? Or is the Catholic Church too entrenched in its patriarchal system?
22 July 2008
at 5:25 p.m.

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mkierl (Anonymous) says…

Personally I think the Catholic Church is too entrenched in its old-fashioned ideology to change. Because it is structured in an exclusionary hierarchy that has stood the test of time for so many years and has greatly benefited those in it along the way, I just don't think it will happen, at least not in our lifetime.I'm a big fan of Freakonomics, which would suggest the Church must be ::motivated:: to change. What is its motivation to include women in the priesthood? One could argue it is motivated by the need to increase its membership. But that same argument could (and I believe has been) used to promote the ability for priests to marry (okay, that was also part of the argument to scale back the pedophilia problem). In any case, that hasn't made the Church budge on its position.As long as the Church uses its current selection process to guarantee old-fashioned (and old) white men ascend to the proverbial throne, nothing will change. And let's not forget the money. The Church — one of the largest businesses in the world — is scared to death of further alienating its conventional supporters. No change. But it sure would be fun to watch some of you wild women give it a shot! (P.S.- Ginny, please do not make me go into a church with you wearing a veil. I'll do a lot for you, but that might be even more than I can handle!) ; )- Recovering Catholic
23 July 2008
at 7:43 a.m.

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pusscanthropus (Anonymous) says…

Okay, how's this “from the bottom up”…leave this old worn out misogynist institution; stop giving it money. Change the paradigm. We don't need these pompous white men as intermediaries to God. I was “baptised” into this religion while still an infant, and I do not believe there is any such thing as “The Holy Catholic Church” anymore than I believe Jesus was white or celibate.

23 July 2008
at 8:21 a.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

looks like the old “you're with us or against us,” “love it or leave it,” attitude is working well for the church. i guess i just don't understand why more women aren't bothered by this - particularly young women. i'm also confounded by the fact that parents continue to raise their children - especially daughters - in an institution that deems women inferior to men. i could understand sticking with it if people were at the same time working for meaningful change; but i don't see that outside of the fringe groups like the one i refer to in my post. what do parents say to a daughter who aspires to become a priest? and, as evidenced in the above mentioned article - some do.
23 July 2008
at 8:55 a.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

eileen - i would have loved to have been acquainted with you when i was younger. i admire that you did more than acknowledge the injustice. that part is fairly easy to do. taking action to correct the injustice - now that takes courage. i guess that is why i admire and feel the need to defend/support the women priests. no one can effect change by themselves but, as in your case, meaningful change can happen when each individual is willing to step out of his or her comfort zone and do their part no matter how insignificant it seems at the time. i have always been inspired by the american cultural anthropologist margaret meade who said, “never doubt that a smail group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” it is precicely people like you who provide the momentum needed to change the injustices of this world. good job!
23 July 2008
at 1:18 p.m.

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scrapgirl8125 (Anonymous) says…

Huh, interesting discussion…when women can become the “husband of one wife” (I Timothy 3:2-7KJV) and not be in direct violation to God's law then I think women can become bishops in the Church. I Timothy 3 outlines the qualifications of a Bishop/Pastor. That is God's thoughts on the subjects. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” (Isaiah 55:8)Kansascrone writes “…especially daughters - in an institution that deems women inferior to men.”Women are not inferior to men, we just have a different role. There has to be a order of authority, the military uses it, government uses it, business' use it, it should be no different anywhere else. In I Corinthians 11:3 it says, “But I would have you know, that the head of EVERY man is Christ; and the head of the woman is man; and the head of Christ is God.” This should especially be true in the Church. It's God's.I'm not Catholic. I am a Bible College graduate with a degree in Theology/Missions. I have raised in the church and know what God commands. Women are valued by God. Women were used mightily in the Bible. Why can't we just be happy with the way God made us. Happy with the people we are. Happy with our role in life. God's plan is perfect—or He wouldn't be God. I am a woman and I'm proud to be a woman. I'm proud to serve God in my Church-in the role that he has designed specifically for me. This new movement that states we are inferior to men, that we should be able to do everything men can do is straight from the Devil.
23 July 2008
at 1:26 p.m.

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blahblahblah (Anonymous) says…

scrapgirl, you are aware that it is 2008, right? The thinking that equality is not an inherent right for all is straight from the Devil.
23 July 2008
at 1:54 p.m.

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jumpin_catfish (Anonymous) says…

Wasn't it a man who wrote the book of Timothy? hummm
23 July 2008
at 5:02 p.m.

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mkierl (Anonymous) says…

i love it when people take parts of the bible literally — and completely ignore the rest to their liking.now, i'm going to go have a chat with the devil …
23 July 2008
at 5:50 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

Last time I checked, Catholicism was not a democracy.
24 July 2008
at 5:55 a.m.

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pusscanthropus (Anonymous) says…

No, it's an oligarchy of mostly old white men! All you catholics—go ahead and raise your girls to believe they are spiritually inferior and need a man to intercede to God on their behalf. Just typing that makes me sick.

24 July 2008
at 6:18 a.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Good on ya, scrapgirl. The foolish will always mock what they do not know and do not understand.
24 July 2008
at 6:50 a.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

scrapgirl - i'm glad you are at peace with your “role” but it doesn't work for me or for others who interpret the bible differently than yourself. and many do.in addition, my daughters were raised on the farm where they learned to be strong and capable. they learned at a young age that they could buck a bale of hay better than many (most) of their male classmates whom they had solicited to help during hay season. experiences like these blew any chance that they could subscribe to the “head of every woman is man” idea.75 - i am not mocking anyone nor would i call you foolish for not understanding what i know.
24 July 2008
at 7:42 a.m.

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oldvet (Anonymous) says…

Good comment, 75… totally appropriate in this discussion line and I'll remember it for use at other appropriate times…
24 July 2008
at 9:24 a.m.

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BigPrune (Anonymous) says…

It all boils down to the apostolic succession, starting with Jesus picking 12 apostles (all male) then the apostles replaced Judas and so on and so on. You're only talking about turning around the first Christian Church that is 2000 years old. Good luck.Some interesting reads on the subject….http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/0506-96/article4.htmlhttp://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0001.html
24 July 2008
at 2:44 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Kansascrone - it's not mockery or insult, it is the proper biblical term for those that do not believe, or willfully ridicule, the things of God. The comment was directed to scrapgirl8125 as an 'attagirl' for presenting a well-written and courageous response in the face of the usual onslaught of lawrencian anti-christians. I find it more telling that you would care to attempt to take me to task for my supposedly offensive comment, in the middle of a mass of mockery of this tenet of orthodox Christian faith.
24 July 2008
at 6:38 p.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

prune -thanks for the links. i read them both. here is one for you. http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp it's quite an impressive site and very respectful. “eight out of ten catholic scholars in the world support the ordination of women” - complete with essays. the difference i can see between them is precicely what we have been discussing. both are catholic but your sites leave no opportunity for diologue while the latter does. i'd be interested to know what you think of it.75-just trying to have an open and honest discussion here. when you refer to others as fools (even if in the biblical sense) the thread tends to descend into name calling because you have just asserted your dominance.all opinions are welcomed and valued here - including scrapgirls which seems to me no more or less courageous than the others. if you perceive it as so that is your right. as for taking you to task, that was not my intent. rather it was my intention to point out that you do not understand all that i know; and that does not make you a fool in my eyes.
24 July 2008
at 7:37 p.m.

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scrapgirl8125 (Anonymous) says…

“Blahblahblah says, 'scrapgirl, you are aware that it is 2008, right? The thinking that equality is not an inherent right for all is straight from the Devil.'”what is the ultimate authority in a Church? Members opinions? I heard it said, 'opinions are like armpits, everyone has them and they all stink'. Churches that are run by members opinions or philosophies are not going to be long-lasting or stable. They will change at the whim of whoever is the loudest. My ultimate authority is God and His Word. Which is what SHOULD be the authority of the Church. Do you know the Bible? Do you even care about what God thinks? The Bible says that things may change but my (God's) word will never pass away. God doesn't care if its 300 A.D. or 2008. He wants his Word followed. Show me in the Bible where we are all equal? I believe it was the Devil in the very beginning of the Bible tempting Eve-saying that she could be like God (or gods) if she ate of the fruit that God said do NOT! He made her think that she was unhappy in what God for her, she became envious of something she had no right and she acted on it. She wanted to be equal with God. we are not equal, and the thought that we are or can be IS straight from the devil. He's always dividing. He causes people to be discontent with what God has for them, so they become proud and think they are better or equal than someone else. We should be thanking God for every breath he allows us to take every second of the day, instead we are wasting our time trying to become what we never should be. Going outside of your roles, you will not find happiness. It started in Genesis and is apparently alive and well in 2008. “mkierl says: 'i love it when people take parts of the bible literally - and completely ignore the rest to their liking.'”I take the Bible literally yes, but I also take the Word in context…for the sake of space I didn't quote the entire chapter of Corinthians or Isaiah. I read my Bible every day, I have dress standards, moral standards, I attend Church three or more times a week, I tithe twice a month, I have a ministry in the Church, I don't do this to show off…I take the Bible literally and try to live the way the Bible has outlined. Completely ignoring the Bible to their liking is what this whole discussion is about. We want to believe that God loves us, but when God outlines how we should live or what we should do in our every day lives, we say “are you aware that this is 2008?” His principles are good for 300 AD as much as they are good for 2008.
25 July 2008
at 2:51 p.m.

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kansascrone (Virginia Rigney) says…

scrapgirl - i have friends from many different faiths and friends who subscribe to no faith. among them, different ideas about god and among those who are christians, different interpretations of the bible. i respect each individual's right to believe as they choose, including yoursmy purpose for writing this blog is to do my part to help bring the catholic church into the 21st century for the sake of the young catholic women i care about. following is a link to a wonderful site. http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests…. the media does not tell you and what you will find on this site is that these women have dedicated a lifetime of service to the catholic church and to humanity. in my humble opinion - heirarchy or no heirarchy - these women have earned the right to be ordained catholic priests.