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Betrayed Again by the Right

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During the first few months after 9-11, our nation had a choice. We could treat the terrorists behind the attack as criminals, capture them, put them on trial and execute the guilty, or we could engage in an ideological war between freedom in the west and religious oppression in the east.

As a nation, we chose to enter into a war of ideals. Though this may not have been the best decision, it is the one we are now stuck with....pursuing a war of ideology with radicals. A war where a smile and a Hershey bar is as much of a tool as a 500 Lb JDAM.

In this war we represent the ideals of our society. Freedom of expression, freedom of the press, equality for everyone, universal education and, above all, freedom to worship as you see fit.

In their opposition to the proposed mosque at 51 Park, leaders of the right wing have betrayed our cause by betraying our values. By opposing the construction of a venue of religious worship leaders like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin provide ammunition for the enemy. They provide the enemy with evidence that the west is not egalitarian and free. They allow the enemy to paint us as a Christian nation dedicated to the destruction of Islam.

In their betrayal of our ideals, these leaders betray our cause. They are no better than the soldiers at Abu-Grhraib, the alleged traitor Bradley Manning or the convicted war criminal Pfc. Steven D. Green. In some ways they are worse. While the soldiers of Abu-Grhraib were under orders, Palin, Gingrich and the rest are simply drumming up an issue for their own personal and political gain.

It was to my great relief that the commander in chief stood up yesterday to repudiate the intolerance and bigotry of the right wing. Hopefully this action demonstrates to the world and to Muslims everywhere that we take our commitment to freedom seriously.

Every time our leaders betray our values by trampling on personal freedoms, imposing their religion and acting with bigotry and hatred, they betray our cause and give succor to the enemy.

Update August 23rd - Protests over mosque at ground zero create Jihadist propaganda bonanza. http://tinyurl.com/34s3yuy

Comments

MacHeath 3 years, 8 months ago

I am what is called "secular" these days. I have no animosity in my heart for any religion. The new neo-fundimentialist Christians are kinda a bee in my arse tho, but I digress. On, its face building a Mosque at ground zero just seems like a bad idea all-around. Why even try? Actually it wouldn't bother me at all, but they had to know it would cause a public opinion storm.
Not only that, why didn't Obama just stay out of it? A really stupid move on his part. Just gives the right more ammunition, and serves no purpose. I mean who in the hell is he going to convince?

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optimist 3 years, 8 months ago

To my knowledge none of those opposed to this "worship center" propose using the force of law to deny these radicals the freedom to build their homage to what the Muslim world views as a victory over America. Keep in mind the leaders of this "worship center" have made statements that any logical person would agree reflect their sympathy for radical Islamists and when given the opportunity cannot bring themselves to condem terrorism or the organizations that commit terror. While it is their right to build it let us not forget that it is the right of those who oppose it to speak out against it, protest loudly against it, propose alternatives to it and bring to bare all of the political and social pressure we have available to us to persuade them not to do it. That is the true exercise of freedom.

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Shane Garrett 3 years, 8 months ago

Well, I was just trying to point out that many people have many views. Most of what happends through out the world is due to natural migration. Like today, people form every where are migrating to America or other countries with the hope of improving their lives. Unlike the past, killing the indiginous people of the land is no longer viewed as a good thing. Manifest destiny may still live in the minds of some worldly visionaries, but I think we could agree it is an old way of thinking. Sadly there are many from the under developed parts of the world who whould take advantage of the weak in order to rise to a leadership role. The message they preach is as old as civilization. Fear that which you do not understand. A worship center being built near ground zero for 9/11 will be used to proclaim victory or death depending upon a persons point of view.
Myself, I wish I did not have to work so much and could spend time doing family things. But, here in America working is all I do. If I lived without schools, roads, proper sewage treatment plants, ect. perhaps I could spend all day with the family and just tend the earth.

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David Lignell 3 years, 8 months ago

Well said, Joshua. While we're a Country made by war, we're also a Country founded on ideals. My Father, a retired Lutheran Minister, entered the first wave at Omaha Beach. 'nuff said. As an Assistant Chaplin at 23, he didn't deny a dying soldier last rites if he were Jewish or Catholic or Muslim or Taoist...he just asked if he could pray along side him. My Dad is now 88 and well into the onset of dementia. Still, I'm quite certain he woundn't deny a gathering of Faithful people based on the fears of a few. America is based on diversity and equity. Let's remember we're inclusive and not exclusive. The location of a Muslim community center near ground zero is not a victory of terrorism but rather a validation of healing. It's the actions of a few who act in hate who defile the many who practice a religion of peace.

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IDfend4U 3 years, 8 months ago

It is not about what is being built by the site of 9/11 but more over who is building it. The problem right now is the main money raiser is a person who hates American's and blames 9/11 on us saying we caused this upon ourselves.

If anyone knows someone who is a 'true' muslim, then they are of peace and would not press this issue but the person who is pressing and crying "poor us... look what they are doing" is full of Hate, not Love.

This is being done to draw attention, not to have a place to worship.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

what a ride.... this blog was about a mosque, this blog was about minorities and their rights in the first and fourteenth amendments of the constitution. I drew conclusions between indigenous and arabic, african, and asian muslim cultures because the righteous indignation shown both ethnic groups seemed similar to me. The moral attitudes of protestant Americans to me derive from the pilgrims and all of the colonial stuff as so put by that genius? Glenn Beck, with his late night chalk boards. if the name of this blog had to do with the Right's lack of respect for rights guaranteed in the bill of rights, then I took it and applied to people here and I tried to show where historically their attitudes came from. Native peoples are not a lost tribe of Israel as Joseph Smith stated with his visions on Oneida indian lands in New York State in the 1830's before he and the Mormans headed west. This statement worked well though as the Mormans took most or all of the arable lands and water sources in Utah, Nevada, and Oregon, from these tribes and subjugated them and blamed them for the Mountain Meadows massacre in 1857. All of this is for another posting. good day.

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Shane Garrett 3 years, 8 months ago

Wait for it.....Joesph Smith said that the indigenous population was one of the lost tribes of Israel. Southern Europe was ruled by....the Ottoman Empire for about 400 years. The vikings discovered North America. It is the white mans burden to conqure the world. When the Blackfoot tribes migrated others got out of the way.

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HomeSlice 3 years, 8 months ago

Sure they have a right to build at that location - they own the land, zoning is proper, etc. But what about not exercising that right? Have they considered that option? What about being gracious, thoughtful, respectful, considerate or (insert your own concept). Just because they have the right to build doesn't mean it is 'right'. Take Fred Phelps for example - he has the right to do protest in a vile way, but is it the noble, moral thing to do?

The Islamic world can view the building of this mosque in one of three ways:

Don't give a hoot Be impressed that America is so free and they can benefit from that freedom' Be impressed that Islam is making such strides in the world and expanding in 'evil' United States.

It will be the third option that most will view these events by, in my opinion. They are making a statement and it is very clear what it means, given the opposition they are more than aware of. Also, where is the funding coming from?

~70% of the US does not want it built at that location. Given the recent backpedaling by the vaunted President, and the comments by Reid, many of the comments above are looking rather anemic about now. Even you Libs don't want it there.

Listen the people of the US, you Islam folks, and build in another location. That is also your right.

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

Indigenous cannibals, not isolated but found throughout north america. Without a written record it is easy for the Native American to hide this ugly truth. That is one of many problems with verbal history, it is unreliable, biased, and basically flawed.

http://www.hoodbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=0911469338 Cannibalism, Headhunting and Human Sacrifice in North America. 2008; Hood, Alan C. & Company, Inc.; 6"x 9"; 272 pages Paperback; ISBN: 0-911469-33-8

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news128.htm Did cannibalism kill Anasazi civilization? http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20000907&slug=4041058

http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html Torture and ritual cannibalism were some of the ugly traits of the Iroquois

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4231120 The Atakapa Indians: Cannibals of Louisiana

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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whatthehell 3 years, 8 months ago

Conservative2011... I am not of Native American Heritage... Do you have any solid proof of Cannibalism by the North American Tribes? I think it is well documented that the Mayans, Inca's and perhaps others practiced sacrifice and to some extent Cannibalism, but I don't think it is a central theme, although I am not REALLY well read on the subject. To me, the central theme is that there were obviously some incredibly bright people that constructed amazing cities through the development of technologies we STILL do not understand. The one thing that really bothers me about this discussion, between you two primarily, is that you assume that our white ancestors that came and conquered these lands were in any way superior to the natives.... except in the making of war, ecological rape of the native lands and resources. In fact, I believe this is still true today. I think you need to get off the high horse... your ancestors were no better, no more civilized than tusch's...they were just different and not necessarily in a better way. Tusch, you mentioned a particularly touchy subject with me... The SLT. I hope I have demonstrated at least a little bit of understanding and compassion for your issues, but I am tired of the delays being put up by multiple groups to the development of this road. There has GOT to be some compromise available that you and others can put forth on this. Lawrence, KS needs to build this road locally, not several miles to the south, and it CAN be done in a sensitive fashion, with mitigation and so forth so it doesn't have to be such a huge negative. You do your case no good by continually stonewalling this thing and crying the same old arguments... negotiate and move on because in my personal, professional and family life I am continually frustrated that it can take so long to get from one side of town to the other.

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independant1 3 years, 8 months ago

prozac to cope with depression and alcohol to make one feel happy about being depressed

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

I said nothing racist, I merely provided empirically accepted facts about the European colonization of the new world versus the empirically accepted facts about the lack of development by the indigenous peoples of North America. If you have problems with that then I believe it is you that is exhibiting racial intollerances. Your hatred of Europeans has clouded your comprehension of historical facts. Without written records it is difficult to accept your word that your tribe and others did not eat human flesh, there is however empirical evidence in written european accounts of the indigenous peoples feasting upon themselves and sacrificing their own kind to a plethora of gods and idols. Archeological evidence also supports that the indigenous peoples were cannibalistic. Their cultures not far advanced from the stone age. South American Indians had a few flashes of brilliance but even a blind hog will eventually find an acorn.

I'm glad you have some ethnic pride, however you shouldn't cloud it so much with hatred for other races and ethnicities, that is racism.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

Conservative2011, I don't resort to calling names because I'm out of thinking, I call names because you actually act and sound like this Plecker guy. For example you mention European superiority in your postings, how ethnocentric is that? better yet.. do you even know what ethnocentric is? If you knew anything at all about the unprinted history of this country instead of the white washed history of this country taught in school to moral imperialists like yourself.. you' d know you don't have a leg to stand on.. the poster overplayed history already let you know you shouldn't of even stepped into this ring of discussion but oh well you keep saying ethnocentric imperialistic things as you have and I will keep empirically dismissing you. WhattheHell, I'll tell you why this post has taken this direction... the pilgrims who landed on Wampanoag lands in Mass in the 1620's sound just like these dingbats now.. The same holier than thou view without any knowledge of their sins and yet all of the propensity to judge. Religious freedom is something every minority has had to fight for in this country. There's a battle here over a trafficway that generates the same kind of dismissive racist denial of history in this country. All I've done is cite culturally parallel examples of this countrie's destructive imperialism against minorities in spite of the first and fourteenth amendments.

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whatthehell 3 years, 8 months ago

I like this thread because of all the directions one can take this discussion (although I am usually quick to point out that people should stay on topic). I believe that those proposing the mosque should have done so in a very quiet, non-offensive way in an area not DIRECTLY attached to the 9/11 site. I do not believe a mosque or church or any religious tone at all belongs at this site. Church's and mosques certainly have there place in the surrounding neighborhoods but we should, from the beginning have downplayed any religious component of this attack. It was an attack on our culture, and our people. If the enemy wants to make it about religion, fine, let them. Take the high ground (novel idea I know) and whatever is done, make SURE it is non-ecumenical.
I am not sure how this got to be about native American cultures, I will go back and re-read, I guess but I find it humorous (in a sad sort of way) the way some are portraying native peoples. When you win wars you get to write the history, which is why so much white European history leaves out the raping and pillaging in the name of religion. The atrocities committed in the name of "GOD" are so vile, NO ONE, has the right to bash native cultures, and their beliefs in anything.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

people who profit from misery distance themselves from their wrongdoings and blame the victims for remembering while those victims wonder if these people will ever change as they profit from the mistakes they made and blindly ask forgiveness while dooing the saem things over and over. Church may absolve you but people still live with your consequences like people all over the world live with the consequences of American involvement. Let us kill you to save you and take what you have....

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independant1 3 years, 8 months ago

You can take a sob story and a stick of candy and lead America right off into the Dead Sea. (Will Rogers)

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independant1 3 years, 8 months ago

Please allow me to meander back to the topic of this thread. There is no doubt indiginous peoples of North America got the rawest of deals. One can wallow in the history of conquest of N. America or study and move forward. Tush's strange mixture of party politics and that rawest of deals is rather depressing as he drones along post after post. I see no value in it except to wallow, accentuate the negative as they say. Good recitation of all the negative facts - that's okay though, we need folks like tusch, we also need undertakers.

We're americans and not stuck wallowing in the past. We remember our heritage accept it, the good and the bad (indiginous, union and confederate.) Which begs the question, how many pure blood indiginous americans are there? Answer = some in the Dakotas, New Mexico, Arizona, Wyoming, Alaska, Canada, Mexico. Most have mixed blood family.

It was a brute world, more so then than now (but there is still a brute world out there). USA has a history of war against the brute world. We get dragged into conflict caused by brute world, we ain't been around long enough as country/culture to be blamed for that brute world, we are the great experiment. The brute world existed long before the Articles of Confederation. Is al qaida not from the brute world (the muslim brute world) where life has less value than in the civilized world?

They can build the mosque without financing from the brute world. Just look at their spokesperson?

Where is the voice of the muslim that eschews the brute world? Not on the front page, not in the mainstream media.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

it's so nice to hear your euro-centric racist bable that sounds so out of 1890 anthropology books that it shows how much you probably still hold onto euguenics and subscribe to the almost master race nazi like mentality that people like Eric Plecker used when working for the Office of Racial Purity in the Commonwealth of Virginia from the 1920's to the 1950's going around and marking the birth certificates of Pamunkey, Mattiponi, Chickahominy, Nansemond, and Monacan birth certificates as colored and writing manuals about mongrels. you should be so proud of sounding as unevolved as you do.

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thuja 3 years, 8 months ago

You could write Heavy Metal songs for intellectuals, devobrun.

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devobrun 3 years, 8 months ago

Ask yourself some questions:

1) Instead of surgical strikes and effective engagement of Qeada in Afghanistan, we could have bombed the Qeada, the Pashtun, and other havens of Islamic terrorism until there were no people left in these regions. What would we have now?

2) Instead of giving out candy bars to kids who will grow up to only read the Koran, What would the world be like if we just killed them all? Until they were no longer capable of mounting any kind of retaliation?

3) If instead of trying to win a peace, we attempted to win a war, what would the world think of us?

4) If morality is not an absolute (no God), what care would the winners in America have for the dead people who wished us to be dead? Tit for tat. You lost, we won. We define morality. We are good. You are gone.

5) Fighters in these regions have a morality that resembles the above. The "atrocities" of Abu-Ghraib are meaningless if the intent is to win a war. If the intent is to win a peace, then the LTE is reasonable. If the intent is to win a war, then nuke 'em. Can we win a peace? Is peace ever won without winning a war first?

Korea, WWI, first Gulf war, and other smaller conflicts say no to the last question. Eventually somebody has to be defeated to bring peace. Like Viet Nam. We lost, so we left them alone. Peace occurred in Nam and Cambodia when they won the war, and eliminated their adversaries......the killing fields. Horrible isn't it. Millions dead.

Silly statements like "war isn't the answer" are simply childish and not true. Complete domination and elimination of enemies worked for the Romans, the Visigoths, and the Allies vs Japan. War is hell here on earth. Hell exists. Happy slogans don't change the equation.

I ask these questions and comment so that people will consider them. They are so stark and real that people reject them out of hand and are repulsed by them. So here is a last question: Is there a possibility that modern troubles are a result of the ignoring of these questions? Ignore war at the risk of having it forever.....until you lose, and are eliminated.

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

Tushchomuo Before the Europeans came there is evidence that it was not a utopian culture. Tribes were at war with each other. They took slaves, they raided other tribes and villages, they raped women, they acted like humans. They were undeveloped savages that had no clue about civil behavior. Most didn't have a written language, they couldn't grasp the concept of a wheel and cart. They ate each other, they sacrificed humans, they were savages.

The Cherokee developed a written language only because they were shamed by the Europeans. They were seeking to emulate the greatness that to them was the white man. The indigenous peoples were not fit to govern, had proven unfit to take care of themselves, and as a consequence are still on the government roles because of a misguided need to cling to an outdated culture that cannot compete with a stronger cultural model. Survival of the fittest. You keep trying to equate some modern moral equivelancy when that dog just aint gonna hunt. The moral authority of 1830 is not the same today. The indigenous peoples of North America were conquered by superior cultures and its peoples. Now it is time to accept that fact, assimilate, and move forward.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

Guess what Conservative2011, I'm Indian. Firstly, with the introducition of the European exploitation economic model into indigenous economies in the 1700's on the southeast coast and plains, fur pelts were explioted and the indigenous economies collapsed because the Europeans practiced exploitation not conservation. The raiding and slave taking you speak incorrectly of happened because of European intervention and destruction of indigenous economic systems. The French and the English played the Haudenosaunee and the Huron against each other. They allso played the Choctaw and Chickasaw against each other. However to do away with your stereotyped racist maybe college educated bs, my tribe had political structure in the form of three districts, Okla Tannap, Okla Falaya, and Okla Hannali. My people were Okla Hannali. The Choctaws were not cannibals but this is a popular theme amongst uneducated conservatives. The Creeks and Seminoles had political structure in their territories with the mikkos and talwas. The Haudenosaunee Confederacy comprised of the Mohawk, Seneca, Oneida, Onandaga, and Cayuga peoples. The Tuscaroras were adopted in the early 1720's. Each tribe had sachems and clan mothers who represented each tribe when the people made decisions. The Senecas were the keepers of the Western Door and the Mohawks were the Keepers of the Eastern Door. The larger the group, the more representatives that tribe had. Benjamin Franklin listened to Canestota, an Onandaga leader speak of this system in 1754. Benjamin Franklin brought his idea into the ideas for the US Constitution. You should read Forgotten Founders by Bruce Johansen and Debating Democracy by the same author to expande your limited mindset and innaccurate preconceived notions of indigenous peoples. and finally Sequoyah took eight years to create the Cherokee syllabry which the Cherokee people were literate in very quickly. It's sad that a bunch of illiterate ex-convict Georgians could expell a literate culture like a bunch of thieves and ignore a Supreme Court ruling by John Marshall.. but such is the case when the right has might by being wrong as usual.

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

Tushcohouma, You're revisionist history is ridiculous. Attempting to judge the moral correctness of actions that occurred hundreds of years ago by todays political correctness and moral values is just stupid. The indigenous peoples of North America were by all standards backward, they often practiced human sacrifice, they constantly fought, they raped, they pillaged, etc. The most advanced of the indigenous peoples ate human flesh and ritualistically sacrificed children at a staggering pace. Most had no alphabet, little capability of societal advancement, etc, they didn't even grasp the concept of a wheel and cart. They could either be eating each other, or have been delivered from that existence to learn, read, write, and have opportunity. There is no victim, except that America never received a thank you!

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independant1 3 years, 8 months ago

If by some divine act of providence we could get rid of both parties and hire some good men, like any other good business does, that would be sitting pretty. (Will Rogers)

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

Gingrich and Palin are examples of how this country is bad. Firstly, there is the guy who brought the contract with america bs out publically and divorced one of his wives while she was on a hospital bed. Mrs. Palin was governor of a state for what seems like minutes. She was brought out by the GOP to attract the moths and other bugs to the light in the back yard that kills rational thought. She allows her on and off again son in law to drag the train wreck of a family through the mud. Even sillier, she attacks the hunting and fishing rights of Alaska Native peoples while her Alaska Native husband hunts and her grandson is put on the tribal lam for health care as grammy is making millions off of dimwits nationwide. My question is this: how much more in vogue should being politically stupid be allowed to occur? The rest of the world loses faith in the US as long as the dumbest are allowed to be the loudest. Being loud and politically clueless and intolerant in spite of the religious freedoms allowed in the First Amendment does not lead to electibility. Who are these people kidding? at some point enough loud stupidity is enough.

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jaywalker 3 years, 8 months ago

"As a nation, we chose to enter into a war of ideals"

Not bad, Joshua, as I'm on your side on the issue and agree to an extent. But you go off the rails at a few points, one is the above. "We" didn't choose a war of ideals, unless, of course, there was a vote I was unaware of. In fact, "we" didn't choose to enter into this mindless bs at all; some dumb ass murderers who hijacked some planes did.

" By opposing the construction of a venue of religious worship leaders like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin provide ammunition for the enemy. They provide the enemy with evidence that the west is not egalitarian and free. They allow the enemy to paint us as a Christian nation dedicated to the destruction of Islam."

The above is all well and good.....mmm, except it's a pile of excrement. While I do believe that Palin, Gingrich, et al are on the wrong side of this issue, they're not "providing" the enemy with bupkiss, and I'm bettin' you know this. Which makes your blog-ish diatribe no better than their supposed political stance. They're both false fronts providing cover to further an agenda. The "enemy" doesn't need evidence of jack, they're not looking for proof that we're "egalitarian and free", and actual proof of such wouldn't divert their plans anyway. And our enemy are already under the delusion that we're out to destroy the Nation of Islam, or at least the button pushers in charge are feedin' them that shinola, which is one of the main reasons all this crap is going down in the first place.

I agree with you that allowing the mosque to be built would be an excellent example of what and how the 'idea' of America is... is actually supposed to transpire. But I think it's a shame that in your desire to speak your mind on the issue you felt it was best to slime the other side with some amazingly transparent partisanship and some wholly ridiculous "fear-mongering", as if the anti's to this mosque's construction are endangering America. Sweet Lord! Don't you realize how much that sounds like some of the same idiocy that comes out of the mouths of ..........oh, I don't know,,,,,,,,,,Palin and Gingrich???!!!! Messages are best delivered by those willing to be rational and fair, with empathy and consideration for alternative views. This doesn't cut it.

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NolongeratJRP 3 years, 8 months ago

Joshua, I'm wondering why you chose to utilize the LJW as the outlet for your editorial, considering that you are the webmaster of a local Community Site. Also wondering why the home page of that Community Site hasn't been updated since April 20, 2010. It seems to me that you would have been better off posting there except for the fact that almost no one even looks at it any more.

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jayhawklawrence 3 years, 8 months ago

Politics has become the art of appealing to selfishness and greed.

When the Pastor says we have to cut the budget and contribute more, the congregation needs to understand the larger purpose and quit complaining about their responsibility. We have a huge national debt and nobody wants to face up to their responsibility.

I think it is time to stop calling the other party evil and control, alt, delete the whole mess that we call Congress. We need to send a message that politics has to change. We need to cut spending and we need to increase taxes. We need to figure out a way to get it done.

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 8 months ago

I've always thought there was something about the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

conservative2011, my source was myself. I've studied the history of indigenous people and American History for the last fifteen years. When i finish school in my mid forties I will be either a professor or an attorney. I'm currently writing a book with 54 book sources and 225 endnotes. Don't tell me about citing. I wrote what was stated above as I always do. I didn't cut and paste, I author blogs like I do when I occasionallly lecture to college classes about indigenous peoples. Furthermore, you sound like a total facist with this love it or leave it bs. The amendments to the constitution apply to everyone even people you don't politically agree with. Sorry.. you're wrong on this...

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

Tushkahouma,

Recommend you fix your cut and pastes before posting them and you might want to cite your source

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Conservative2011 3 years, 8 months ago

Joshua, I recommend you resign your commission in the KS Air National Guard if you cannot support the mission. Your rant was unprofessional and should be provided to your commander for close scrutiny of your committment to this nation and our great state. You sound earily similar to the major at Fort Hood.

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Mike Ford 3 years, 8 months ago

This is how this is how this is broke down:

One side wants to adhere to a judeo christian state of mythology and divine intervention. This side believed it was divine intervention when some of the Wampanoags died and the Pilgrims were the chosen successors iin the Massachusetts Bay Colony and took the Wampanoag's land after an outbreak of smallpox. They also believed in divine intervention when the Pequots were massacred in a burning swamp in Mystic, Connecticut in 1637. They believed God chose them to use divine intervention and be the chosen race as they stole tribal lands and destroyed indigenous culture with Christian missionaries on their way west through the next two centuries. They champion the very constitution that supplanted their right wing wishes of state's rights with the demise of the articles of confederation. This lack of historical knowledge and engaged hypocracy happens constantly with the right wingers. They talk about strict interpretation of the constitution as long as the mention of Indian tribes in the commerce clause is not noted. They would probably use bible verses to do away with the 14th and 19th amendments if they could. There is a demonstrative tone of arrogance with people like Cal "Pompous Smile" Thomas and George Will and I particularly love remembering how Mr. Will's head exploded as he accused the Mohawks and other Haudenosaunee members of historical revisionalism as they stated that the basis of the electoral college came from Benjamin Franklin observing the Onandaga and other Six Nations sachems using the tenets of the Great peace to vote and solve their problems in the 1750's. The Right is not about facts, it's about stated nominative traditions.

The Left looks at issues from many different angles and tries to give voices to disenfranchised people on their terms. The Right only accepts minorities if they assimialte and think like the majority. Anyone looked at Juan Williams lately? The reason I'm so demonstrative on my postings is because many of the posters whom I won't name are constantly in derision mode and and act surprised when someone attacks their unnecessary comments. In conclusion, the Founding Fathers had seen how the monarchies and the churches were in bed with each other and they established church and state separation to prevent one from affecting another as had happened previously in Europe. It's a shame that the godlicans willfully deny this to further control of the weak-minded. Jesse Ventura had this right and I'm the son of clergy saying this. The First Amendment allows free practice of religion unless a mosque is involved or a sacred indigenous area being denigrated and derided for a trafficway is involved Such is the hypocracy of America.

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notajayhawk 3 years, 8 months ago

"We could treat the terrorists behind the attack as criminals, capture them, put them on trial and execute the guilty"

Well, there is that little detail of actually capturing them. Not much of a choice you're defining since that didn't happen.

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 8 months ago

"We'd get sick on too many cookies, but ever so much sicker on no cookies at all." — Sinclair Lewis

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Kathy Getto 3 years, 8 months ago

"When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” Sinclair Lewis

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seriouscat 3 years, 8 months ago

Why must every single thing be labeled as a right vs left, republican vs. democrat, tolerant vs, bigot issue? Could it be that the very propensity for jumping on to bandwagons in general is part of the problem with politics today? It is so much easier to do that than to think through issues based upon the merits of the arguments themselves.

In the words of one of my fave commenters on the NYT people forums..Elizabeth Fuller who states her case with more class and prudence than I am usually capable:

Of course religious freedom and separation of church and state are extremely important, but is it the province of religion to force that point or to be the sort of actor in the world that helps people to heal and to love one another? Constructing a mosque, whether unfairly or not, is a visible and perhaps hurtful sign of Islam in an area in which radical Islamists destroyed so much. At some point it might be a very powerful statement to have a mosque nearby--a reminder that Islam can be a strong force for good in the world, and that our country can survive assaults and still remain open to diversity. But might it not be too soon for some of the families who lost fathers and mothers and whose children are not yet grown?

Isn't it incumbent on all of us to honor the freedoms we are so lucky to have by using them responsibly? I am so saddened by hate speech and other abuses of our first amendment rights. The abuse of a precious gift seems like using a cashmere sweater to mop up a filthy floor. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it has to be done. Yes, we are relatively free to build houses of worship in many places, but just because we are, does it mean we should?

It seems to me that unless someone is being hurt, unless a social injustice is truly making life intolerable for some, the role of religion is to work towards peace rather than confrontation. Who, really, would it hurt to construct the mosque in a less sensitive area? And might not doing so give us more time to heal? Yes, it has been almost nine years since the attacks, but watch the tapes again, and it is as if it were yesterday. In this age of instant everything we expect progress too quickly. We should approach this issue with a wide angle lens, and one would hope that people of faith might be the very ones to take a broader, longer view. Deciding not to force an issue before its time doesn't have to be seen as a defeat. It can actually be a moral victory.

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Tom Shewmon 3 years, 8 months ago

Not so fast there, Joshua.

"According to a new CNN poll, 68 percent of Americans nationwide oppose the mosque being built two blocks from ground zero, which is why President Obama will probably not choose to make this his latest "teachable moment." Even a majority of Democrats — the ones who are supposed to be the politically correct terrorist apologists — are opposed (54 percent against it to 43 percent for it). It's worth noting that another poll shows that, among those literally closest to the issue, the mosque has wider support: Manhattanites back the mosque 53 percent to 31 percent. "

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08/even_democrats_oppose_ground_z_1.html

68% Joshua. Is America comprised of 68% right-wingers? Click on the poll to see a further breakdown.

The majoirty being identified as "the right" andchastised by a minority of leftist zealots is just not working anymore. Obama has been the most divisive president in the history of this nation. On a recent O'Reilly poll, a staggering 94% say race relations are worse now than before. Latino and black approval of this president have been on a downward spiral.

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beatrice 3 years, 8 months ago

Well said, although I can't agree with the "they are no better than the soldiers at Abu Ghraib" part. I think that is going a bit too far.

Also, you might want to fix "releaf" to read "relief" in the next to last sentence. Releaf is what I believe happens to trees after winter.

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Amy Heeter 3 years, 8 months ago

Or we engage in an ideological war between the left and the right. As a nation, we chose to enter into a war of ideals between our own people. We live in nation laden with divisiveness, we are at odds because we disagree. We Judge others because they are not united with us, but we as a nation are not united with ourselves. The commander in chief stood up yesterday to repudiate the intolerance and biggotry? Or did he continiue to support the divisivness that is so glaring within our own political system? Biggotry is not just about the color of a persons skin or religous beliefs,it is about not meeting one another on common ground, It is not seeing one another and it is about not valuing one another despite our diffrerences.. When we cannot communicate with each other without pointing fingers of blame; are we really taking a stand against biggotry or are we just talking smack?

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