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Anti-abortion protesters arrested at Tiller's church

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In case you missed it over the weekend, two anti-abortion protesters were arrested at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, where abortion provider George Tiller is a member. [Operation Rescue][1], a Wichita-based anti-abortion group, gave this account of what happened on its Web site:Ordained minister Henry "Bud" Shaver was arrested with another man after reading from Isaiah 1 during a church service at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, where late-term abortionist George R. Tiller is a member.During the communion service Rev. Shaver stood at a microphone and read a portion of Isaiah's warning to believers from a scrap of paper. Members of the church tried unsuccessfully to shut off the microphone and grab the Scripture from his hand. Men then forcibly carried Rev. Shaver from the church.Pastor Thomas Halstrom gave Rev. Shaver's associate, Joey Cox the communion bread saying, "Receive the body of Christ." Cox gave the bread back to Halstrom saying that this was not the body of Christ but it represented the bodies of babies killed by abortionist George Tiller.Cox was removed from the church by four men who repeatedly tried to cover his mouth with their hands even though Cox was not resisting and was trying to voluntarily leave the building.Rev. Shaver and Cox left the church area and were later stopped at a gas station where they were surrounded by police and arrested at the personal request of Halstrom, whose church is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Churches In America (ELCA) synod.The two Christians spent seven hours in jail on the charge of "rude and indecent behavior in a place of worship.""It's a sad thing when a church considers the reading of God's Word 'rude and indecent behavior,' while embracing abortionist George Tiller, someone who violates that word every day by shedding the innocent blood of babies created in the image of the God they profess to serve. By doing so, they dishonor the name of Christ," said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman. "Rev. Shaver's bold proclamation is to be applauded."_Church officials declined to comment for a story in the [Wichita Eagle][2].Cox, one of those arrested, recorded this video about the incident that was posted on YouTube. - Faith Files, which examines issues of faith, spirituality, morals and ethics, is updated by features/faith reporter Terry Rombeck. Have an idea for the blog? Contact Terry at trombeck@ljworld.com, or 832-7145._ [1]: http://www.operationrescue.org/ [2]: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/story/123937.html

Comments

bababa 7 years, 8 months ago

LET'S GO PRO-CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fletch 7 years, 8 months ago

That video is pretty disturbing, and I didn't even listen to the audio.

Centrist 7 years, 8 months ago

Thanks ljworld, however I must question your motives with regard to "just in case you missed it" as a lead-off. Didn't want us to miss this sensitive issue, eh?

irishdevil99 7 years, 8 months ago

Really? You can be arrested for "rude and indecent behavior" (that, presumably, did not include public nudity) in a church?

I'm certainly not on those guys' side, but that seems a bit extreme.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Free speech. Oh...that's right. You all don't want to hear from the other side.

These guys will NEVER be as violent as the shreading Tiller gives out.

Way to go! I applaud these guys guts to shed light on the truth. Tiller in Church. Interesting.

God have mercy on him.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

If these people have a problem with Tiller.....fine.

But interrupting a church service with their hate messed with the lives of everyone in that church...people who had no right to have their worship destroyed that morning. It makes me sick.

Oh, and I thought fundamentalists didn't like hippies?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

ndmoderate said "But interrupting a church service with their hate messed with the lives of everyone in that church:people who had no right to have their worship destroyed that morning. It makes me sick."

Makes me sick when a congregation of Christians sit silently and passively in their pews and don't confront the hypocricy sitting next to them. Hippies or not...this is intolerance of apathy and ignorance. Wow. Being confronted with truth in Church...now there's a thought.

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 8 months ago

Is the guy in the video in disguise, or is that how he really looks?

And these guys actually think that they're heroes for doing this? What a couple of self-righteous idiots. It's too bad they weren't aborted.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 8 months ago

C'mon all you commies! Let's see you get your mind around this one. Are you going to really defend the arrest of two protesters in a church? Why should that racist law exist to protect those bigoted christians in there house of worsheep? Should we arrest everyone that doesn't agree with what's being said in a particular building? Fine. I don't really care who was offended or arrested, but it's interesting to see the lefties step up for the christians when it's convenient and trash them every other time on this forum. Guess it's all about who's ox is getting gored. If these two guys were protesting the war, all you lefties would be calling the ACLU demanding a lawsuit and Tiller's church would be branded a cult by the media. Funny how that works.

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 8 months ago

Ronnie,

What lefties are sticking up for Christians on this thread? Your post proves that you see what you want to see and you assume what you want to assume.

I actually find it quite amusing to see Christians battle each other...it helps confirm my personal views on religion.

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 8 months ago

Max1 wrote, Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida. Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

Yep, that would explain why they're pro-life...more children on their plate to molest. Maybe that explains why a lot of Catholic priests are pro-life as well.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

absolutelyridiculous:

So it's OK for anyone to interrupt a church service, as long as that church is full of "hypocrisy" and "ignorance?" Do you do this regularly? Do people come to your church and do this? If so, have these people "opened your eyes?" If not, think about what you would do if this happened to you.

Aren't people guaranteed the right to worship freely in this country? Or does that only apply to the right kind of christians?

puppyfeathers 7 years, 8 months ago

Modern Christianity....

Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American citizens put on expensive dress clothes, load themselves into SUVs and precede to drive past homeless shelters, orphanages, prisons, missions and halfways houses to an extremely expensive church where some schmuck tells them how to be more like Jesus....... real role models for religion you hippocrites.

puppyfeathers 7 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

cath 7 years, 8 months ago

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." G.K. Chesterton

craigers 7 years, 8 months ago

puppy, check the log in your own eye.

If these people merely showed up and read scripture outside of the building I wouldn't mind one bit. However, when you enter into a church or any other building for that matter, you should be respectful. These people stepped over the line being disruptive and saying garbage about communion. Giving pro-life supporters a bad name is what they are doing. However there are nutjobs in every group. I do find it odd that Tiller goes to a Lutheran church though.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

ndmoderate "So it's OK for anyone to interrupt a church service, as long as that church is full of "hypocrisy" and "ignorance?" Do you do this regularly? Do people come to your church and do this? If so, have these people "opened your eyes?" If not, think about what you would do if this happened to you.

Aren't people guaranteed the right to worship freely in this country? Or does that only apply to the right kind of christians?"

If this happened in my Church? Well, I'm not that wrapped up in my ego that I wouldn't first do a good examination of my conscience...I assume you know what that actually is:I'm not that coward to look at myself and say, wow, you are really dropping the ball on this one. Explains why I'm here. I SHOULD have my workshop disrupted if I am too blind to see what is happening right before my eyes. Worship is fruitless if were are just doing it to feel good. I'm all about freedom to worship and free speech. These guys have a right to both.

BTW...Jesus was on this earth to fight the same ideology you all are wrapping your theology around...politics and power. If you are here to stand on your political soap box and judge the sinful actions of a few (very few), then maybe you are in the wrong blog.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

"I'm all about freedom to worship and free speech." --absolutelyridiculous

Unless you go to that Lutheran church in Wichita, apparently.

As to the rest of your post -- it's hard to follow you when you fail to posit a complete thought. Your screen name is truly apt.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

And BTW, I don't "have" a theology, and I don't believe in sin. It was awful big of you to assume that I'm a churchgoer, though--probably made you feel more Righteous, yes?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

ndmoderate...why are you here then if you don't have a theology or believe in sin? What makes think I want to hear about what you have to say in a FAITH blog?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Ag...Great passage. I don't come here to be abused by a bunch of atheists and agnostics for my glory. I do this be cause yes, I am righteous, I inherited that by my baptism and confirmation...which you say you don't believe in.

We've been here before Ag...I'm not going here with you today. Gone. Matthew 7:6

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

"ndmoderate:why are you here then if you don't have a theology or believe in sin? What makes think I want to hear about what you have to say in a FAITH blog?"

It's a free country. I don't have to be a christian to care about christians being harrassed and their right to worship freely being violated. And now you don't want to hear from me --- christians like you are famous for this type of "head-in-sand" behavior. What--a little rational thought too much for you?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Mach said: "Abortion was close to being condoned in the Roman Catholic Church but some strange pope decided that it would diminish his authorit: not that it was against the dictates of their religion, but that it was percieved that it would give the Roman Catholic Church far less authority. And that is the exact reason why the Roman Catholic Church is against it. Research it."

What is YOUR source for this load of bull?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

nd...no really? I want to know why you are here?

MyName 7 years, 8 months ago

RonaldWilson:

What kind of moron are you? These people were trespassing, interrupting the services, and they should have been removed! If the KKK came in and interrupted the services of a black congregation are you saying that the KKK is in the right and the congregation is in the wrong for getting them out of there? If Fred Phelps came in and did the same thing, are you saying Fred Phelps would be in the right? The first amendment protects speech, but it doesn't protect trespassers. Get a clue you rube!

The only reason why you're sticking up for these jokers is because you agree with their politics, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in the wrong. If they didn't come to church to worship, but instead came to promote some screwball political message, then they are in the wrong.

Jamesaust 7 years, 8 months ago

Christians have a term for disrupting a religious service -- sacrilege.

cath 7 years, 8 months ago

Mach, "I believe in sin, but I also believe I define sin for myself. For me, "sin" is anything that you do that goes against your self. Abortion is not a sin. Most generally, for me, abortion is done in support of self.

Could you give me an example of something you would consider a sin? I am having trouble understanding the logic in your statement. Thanks

kmat 7 years, 8 months ago

absolutely - you kill me. You don't think anyone has the right to express their views if they don't consider themselves a christian???? I think you are in the wrong country then. You don't want the entire population to be able to discuss any topic they wish, then get your ass over to a theocratic nation. Let's see - that leaves you Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, the Vatican. Take your pick, but leave OUR free nation please. If you can't respect the FIRST ammendment (it's the first for a reason, for it is the most important of all), get out of this free nation.

A few quotes you need to learn, since it is obvious you have been blinded by faith and haven't learned the basic history of our republic and don't understand the rights we citizens possess.

James Madison (the father of the constitution) "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Thomas Paine "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

And finally from the Treaty of Tripoli in 1976 - "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Our schools have obviously failed us for many decades. It would do you good to reread the works of the founding fathers. If you refuse, then you can continue to live your life of ignorance. Just don't expect those of us that understand the rights we possess in this free nation, founded under no established religion, to live our lives freely and not under the rule of those who "think" they are rightous.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

kmat...so as a Christian...I don't have the right to express my views outside the "doctrine" of your laws? Ignorance of laws is completely different than ignorance of God. You are being legalistic.

I don't need a history lesson. Fact of the matter, from a faith perspective (the purpose of this very blog) is that abortion is gravely wrong. I base this NOT on what the law says, but what my faith has taught me. There is some relevant truth to what Cox voiced.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Mach...and your source is from the United Church of Christ, a ProChoice Church. That alone tells me that what you are saying is bunk. Nice try.

kmat 7 years, 8 months ago

ridiculous - you chose a good name for yourself.

First, realize that not everyone believes as you do and you must respect everyone's right to believe as they wish. I never said you had no right to express your "christian" views - you questioned why someone who didn't believe as you was expressing their view point. Reread your posts.

I am not ignorant of god, I just don't believe in the god of your bible. You seem to have issues with anyone that doesn't believe as you do. Because of this, you should move to a country where only those who believe as you do are allowed to speak. You obviously don't appreciate the right of EVERY citizen, regardless of their beliefs, to be able to freely speak their mind. That is they typical, christian conservative, closed minded approach that KS is known for.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

kmat...reread my posts...I'm simple asking why someone posting in a Faith blog, would bring up political issues on abortion here. What's the motivation? I certainly am up for the debate...I can do that in this free country.

I do appreciate the right of EVERY citizen...even those who are unborn.

Speak freely. I'm not stopping you. I can ask about your motives and reasons for being here in the first place.

"That is they typical, christian conservative, closed minded approach that KS is known for." I might say the same of typical, liberal democrats, closed minded, legalistic approach that Lawrence is known for.

bugmenot 7 years, 8 months ago

Um, not to nitpick, but from a purely legal perspective, the Constitution only exends rights to the born. It's right there in the Constitution - the word "born." So, no matter where you stand on the abortion issue, don't hang your hat on the "rights of the unborn" argument. It has no legal basis.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Children are citizens and they don't vote. What is your logic...logicsound?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Again bugmenot...it depends on the perspective...from a legal perspective you are correct. From a faith perspective I would disagree with you. This is a FAITH blog you know.

btw Machiavelli..I'm not a she. Looks like you've made your god...YOU. How comforting that is to me while I drink and drive.

irishdevil99 7 years, 8 months ago

absolutelyridiculous -- I am another person who has no theology but finds myself VERY interested in this blog. I don't think that the blog was set up to be a blog limited to people of faith, but rather to discussion about issues of faith. But those issues, such as the one that is the subject of this posting, can and very often do also range into topics of constitutional law, education, discrimination, politics, economics, you name it. These topics are relevant to people of all different religious beliefs, as well as those with none at all.

While we can certainly strive to be respectful of each other, it would be, no pun intended, ridiculous for anyone here to expect that others will necessarily hold the same viewpoints as they do. And you should also be aware that if you're dismissing the faiths of others with comments like "your source is from the United Church of Christ, a ProChoice Church. That alone tells me that what you are saying is bunk," you may find yourself being similarly dismissed.

Peace to you and yours.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

logic...you are correct. "treating an developing fetus as if it has the same rights as cognitive, living human beings is not only incorrect, it is functionally impossible."

It IS functionally impossible when you abort it.

I love this place.

craigers 7 years, 8 months ago

logic, according to the bible when we are born again we die with Christ on the cross and he lives in us. The only way we can be in God's presence is to be righteous, which is why we are born again into the family of God. Once we have been born again we are sanctified (set apart) and righteous in God's eyes. And don't confuse what I said as righteous in God's eyes and what this world views as self-righteous. It is not arrogant or incorrect to state that we are righteous when we are born again since it merely means we are right with God.

As a christian, I think abortion is murder. And whoever performs an abortion is therefore a murderer. What makes it even worse is Tiller is profitting from murdering babies.

beatrice 7 years, 8 months ago

For those backing these goofballs, I ask this: would it be okay for me to walk into your church and start ranting about how all of you are going to hell because you don't believe in Zeus? What if I do the same in your place of business? Should I be protected by freedom of speech depsite my disruptive behavior, or must you actually agree with me before you think I should be protected by freedom of speech? Ignoring the content of what was being said, should it be okay to disrupt any business (and church service is certainly big business) with a rant on any topic?

I didn't think so.

logic: "I expect to cast several million votes at the next election:"
I just hope I don't have to use the touch-screen voting system after you get done "voting."

Tychoman 7 years, 8 months ago

It's not Jesus I have a problem with, it's his fan club that scares the hell out of me.

Mel Gibson's children's book: "Jesus Christ and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day."

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Mach. I am very much in touch with my soul and with God. The reason I am here today. My soul is restless and very much angry. My soul knows no peace. I will NOT have peace knowing that voiceless children are being murdered by the millions in this country because it's legal. I am angered even more by the hypocrisy of the majority here that believe in free speech but ignore the voiceless who can NOT speak for themselves. You are all about injustice but willing to kill something that is so intimately a part of you, that you created. When faced with truth from a radical few, you get offended and hide behind your laws. Sometimes God starts wrapping on the pulpit and through Cox, God had the courage to come in and say listen, there is a murderer here who is pumping blood money into your church. I am not violent and don't care to be. But, in a country where "he who yells the loudest wins"...that's what it's going to take.

craigers 7 years, 8 months ago

absolutely, I agree with you sticking up for babies that are aborted. However, you can't seriously support people that are saying the communion bread represents the bodies of the babies Tiller has performed abortions on. That is crazy and shows these people as not standing on the word of God but just being crazy. The bread is only symbolizing the body of Christ not these babies and the way they disrupted the service was uncalled for. You want to decry their sins? That's fine but don't trespass at the church to do it. And if you believe in the bible, then know that the pastor of that congregation has a job to discern what is right in that church and the responsibility to help them follow a proper lifestyle in Christ. Preachers have a stricter accountability according to the bible and both he and Tiller will answer for their decisions. Actions like these two do more to turn people against Christians and Christ than they do to support their cause. Don't be blind to that.

bugmenot 7 years, 8 months ago

What happens if the thing that is so intimately a part of you is not something you created, but which was instead forced upon you, e.g. in cases of rape?

Furthermore, that's what your God is saying to you. Others' Gods may not say the same thing, and you can't force what you think God thinks is right onto others. There are lots of people out there who think God is telling them things that you might not like. Because it's their belief, they're allowed to carry it out to the fullest? My mom spoke for an hour once with someone who said God was telling her radios were bad because they allowed people in airplanes to see her naked. Do you think, because that person truly believed God said radios were bad, that radios should be outlawed? A totally trite example to contrast with this more serious issue, but the point remains. That point is that it is your conception of God that you are trying to push on others. Your God says abortion is wrong, but maybe you aren't understanding what God is saying to you. Doesn't the Bible say that God's intentions for this world cannot be known by man? How do you presume, then, to speak out and say God is against anything? Telling everyone abortion is "wrong" because that's what is consistent with your belief is being incredibly un-humble about your ability to divine God's logic, don't you think?

bugmenot 7 years, 8 months ago

Finally, that's what the pro-choice movement is about. It's not pro-abortion, contrary to some of the heated words of people on boards like these. It's about giving people the choice to live their lives in accordance with their own beliefs. If you believe God thinks abortions are wrong, then don't have one. If someone else believes that God left that avenue open to them, then they have to answer to God themselves. You can't force your beliefs onto others.

And, I know, you feel like you're speaking for the "murdered babies," believing they don't have a voice. People die every day for reasons we can't explain. For reasons that faith as we understand it can't explain. Cancer takes our loved ones from us without explanation. Churches often say not to dwell on the why and that it's part of God's plan. Why presume to save lives (if you believe fetuses are lives), then, that might be part of God's plan to be taken away?

My problem with the let's-outlaw-abortion-because-my-faith-says-to crowd is that it's an argument inconsistent with the very notions of faith. You can't understand what God wants, so why are you presuming to codify your understanding of it?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

craigers...I agree and respectfully appreciate your reminder that we are risking the image and expectation from Christians. Perhaps the image and expectations SHOULD be challenged. When we idly sit back and allow murderers to keep killing, we are held accountable for our inaction as well.

I wonder who in this forum would die to save a baby from being aborted?

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

"absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says:

nd:no really? I want to know why you are here?"

I've already told you. It's a free country. I don't have to be a christian to care about christians being harrassed and their right to worship freely being violated.

craigers 7 years, 8 months ago

Understood logic. My apologies.

Absolutely, I agree that the status quo for Christians should be changed. However, there is a way to speak to somebody that will be personal and not beat them over the head. See there are two approaches that you can take. The first people might respond to, the second will make them not listen to you from the very beginning. Think about it... I don't want to liken the message of Christ to something that is sold, but which are you willing to purchase a magazine from? A person that says he you have to buy this magazine or somebody that shows up and asks about you and finds out how this magazine would benefit them and treats you like a person?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Thanks craigers...really.

I see this story from a totally different angle. Legal aspects aside, this is a challenge to all Christians. I am more concerned that Tiller's presence in a Christian Church and the implications of his presence there in a Christian Church, than I am about Cox, disrupting a service. Our hypocrisy then becomes our apathy to speaking out and holding Tiller accountable to his hypocrisy.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years, 8 months ago

I hear wailing for the unborn amongst many Christian groups. I hear, see and feel hatred rise up in their hearts. It is hatred of women, doctors and a society that allows abortion. I hear abortion called murder. There have been about fifty million abortions in the US since 1973. I don't see the response I would expect from people witnessing a government sanctioned spree of murder. What's wrong with this picture?

I wonder how your God treats an aborted baby('s soul)? I wonder how your God treats the unbaptized? How does he treat those who don't/can't believe Jesus Christ was their personal savior?

I realize that it's difficult to believe that some people see themselves as animals with more questions than answers and with more of a belief in compassion than in the soul. I personally don't believe that makes them any more of a murderer than someone who kills a chicken or puts their dog to sleep. It is obvious to me that we all have different beliefs and can't quite wrap our heads around the belief of others. Some have belief in the Good Book. Some have another Book. Some are still filling blank pages.

We all hate the "sin" and have a hard time loving the "sinner" but that still seems like a pretty good plan, at least. Wouldn't it be nice to simply let your God sort things out after this mess is over? It seems as if shoving His Word down the throats of those who can't/don't believe will always lead to trouble. If you want trouble, there's plenty to go around. Don't wail when it comes knocking.

That's the jumble of thoughts that y'all caused to pop into my head. Don't blame me. I'm just an incoherent animal like the rest of you!~)

cath 7 years, 8 months ago

How can you compare cancer, which is a disease, to a pregnancy? Every child has a God given right to be born.

SettingTheRecordStraight 7 years, 8 months ago

Although I don't agree with their method, these two men made a powerful, positive statement about the importance of protecting innocent life.

Also, as often as liberals use the term "the religious right," it should use "the religious left" to describe Christian abortionists like George Tiller.

yankeelady 7 years, 8 months ago

So tell me absolutelyridiculous, and anyone else who suffers all this angst over abortion---how many children have you adopted? What have you done to help educate and support young women so that they won't need to resort to abortion? Or have you helped support a severely handicapped child? Have you contributed to research to find solutions to genetic disorders that are devastating to a family with an affected child? Do any of you really care about the unborn after they are born? Care enough to help be sure they have the basics of life, not to mention love and opportunity to have a happy productive life? Have you contacted your elected officials to urge them to make sure all children have health insurance and access to health care? Oh, I forget, its all about the unborn.

beatrice 7 years, 8 months ago

"and through Cox, God had the courage to come in and say ..."

Parden me? Not only does this statement take the responsiblity for his actions away from Cox and plant it in the lap of God, but it suggests that God had to have the "courage" to say something about anything in the first place. God needs "courage" to say something? Is this from a general fear of speaking in front of an audience? Does this account for our not hearing from him for 2000 years? But now he speaks through this yokel. Wow. Simply, wow.

How could we possibly be out of burning bushes?

yankeelady 7 years, 8 months ago

I think God is perfectly capable of acting alone. And probably doing better than that. Just another idiot going for the headlines and attention. Male of course. Last time I heard---men don't get pregnant???, but they certainly are out there worrying about womens bodies and issues. Could it be more about control?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Yankee lady...glad you asked.

Yes. I have offered to adopt an unborn baby. Right on the spot. Unfortunately, the mom's mother and boyfriend were too influential over the mother and the baby was aborted. Given the opportunity again, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I contribute financially to responsible organizations that support handicapped children and for responsible and ethical genetic research.

I also talk to my sons about being a responsible male in our society.

And finally, yes I am in constant contact with elected officials on health care access for everyone.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Yankeelady...I'm not convince we should be talking only to young ladies about ways to avoid abortion. In my experiences, it's been the male or a mother who applies the most pressure.

compmd 7 years, 8 months ago

"The two Christians spent seven hours in jail on the charge of "rude and indecent behavior in a place of worship.""

Note to self: Do not fart in church. Ever.

yankeelady 7 years, 8 months ago

The entire topic of reproduction needs to be taken out of the political (and religious) arena and put back in the private life of the woman involved, her partner, and the medical system.

yankeelady 7 years, 8 months ago

The GOP claims to be against big government and over regulation At least that's what Reagan stood for. I guess they think it's ok to regulate women, don't want them getting too uppity after all. I suppose we should be happy we are allowed to wear shoes.

cath 7 years, 8 months ago

americorps, why would you assume that I am a MISTER? There are women out there who do believe abortion is wrong. The thing that gets me the most about this forum is it seems like a lot of people here try to fit others into one of two categories, "liberal left" or "religious right". Am I the only one who thinks abortion is wrong and thinks the war in Iraq is a travesty? I am almost certain I cannot be the only one who can't stand politicians on either end of the spectrum because I see them as self-serving, who use abortion not because they care, but to further their political careers? I do not think it is okay that those two went into the church and acted as they did. Yelling and screaming at people doesn't usually get the desired results and it polarizes people even more. Sadly, this is the way many people act today. It seems to be much easier to call people names, than to act in a civil manner and show respect even to those whose opinions differ from ours.

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

I have some issue with this being put into a faith file. This seems like it should simply be considered regular news, if for no other reason than to remove the cognitive dissonance from posters yelling about people talking about political issues in a faith forum. If you haven't figured out by now that abortion has as much to do with politics as it does with faith, you should probably open your eyes.

I think, as well, that I will add my name to the list of those who tread warily around people too willing to name themselves as righteous.

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

"Am I the only one who thinks abortion is wrong and thinks the war in Iraq is a travesty? I am almost certain I cannot be the only one who can't stand politicians on either end of the spectrum because I see them as self-serving, who use abortion not because they care, but to further their political careers?"

Bah! Where were you on the day you and the rest of your party signed the "Things I am now required to believe and blindly defend!" pledge? Probably out back, rustling up malcontent!

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

I need to throw in with the maroons.

For we who are pro-life, the debate isn't about men's rights or women's rights, it's all about saving innocent humans regardless of race or gender from a terrible, cruel and disgusting death.

It seems ironic that Mr. Tiller is considered a "true" Christian by many, yet those who oppose his work are called terrorists speaking "hate speech".

St. John indicates in Revelations that near the end times, "The Church" will begin killing the saints. Given the comments and discussion surrounding this latest incident it's easy to see how it will happen.

It's been said that Mr. Tiller is a big financial supporter of his church. It would seem that money is god of "The Church".

Newell_Post 7 years, 8 months ago

The Pope says that unbaptized babies now get to go to Heaven if they die. So why are we so intent on consigning them to this miserable life when they could go immediately to Heaven and be with Jesus for all eternity?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18296718/site/newsweek/

craigers 7 years, 8 months ago

Mach, I completely agree with your last post.

EXks 7 years, 8 months ago

"Receive the body of Christ." Cox gave the bread back to Halstrom saying that this was not the body of Christ but it represented the bodies of babies killed by abortionist George Tiller.

this idea of pretending to receive the body (bread) of christ and drinking his blood (blood) is nothing more than cannibalism, about as crazy as the above statement.

rhd99 7 years, 8 months ago

Let's see if I have this straight: First the Pro-Life religious right nut cases like Phil Kline all say that life begins with the fetus. Next, the pro-life nut cases are bible thumpers who attempt to bomb abortion clinics, while holding to the belief that in order to protect un-born fetuses, they want to deny others the right to live who have Muscular Dystrophy, thereby denying stem cell research that could lead to better medicines from discarded fetuses that are being wasted. Now they want to bomb Tiller's church?! Two words to describe this group: Tresspassing hypocrites! Religious? Are you kidding me?! Oh, how conveeeeeenient!

bjbrown 7 years, 8 months ago

AG, you are not Mr. A in drag, now are you? Pretending to be open to the question, shame on you!

Cait McKnelly 7 years, 8 months ago

Oh Mr. Rombeck, what hath thou wrought? 121 comments in 2 days and still growing. By the way, did anyone else notice the two maroons that did this were both from out of town? Shaver is from Flagstaff, AZ and Cox is from Riverside, CA. Wish I had the money to just run around the country and make an ass of myself. But nooooo I have to haul my tired old feet out the door everyday and make that paycheck. Oh well, besides if I had the money to make an ass of myself I wouldn't get arrested doing it and I'd have a lot more fun.

pelliott 7 years, 8 months ago

They really were robust creepy about it. If they hadn't gotten arrested boy what would they have done next, they knew they weren't legally protesting? The crying whiney liars.

coneflower 7 years, 8 months ago

SPARTANBURG, S.C. - Republican Mitt Romney directly appealed to social conservatives in South Carolina on Thursday, criticizing Democratic rival Barack Obama for supporting age-appropriate sex education for children as young as kindergartners.

"Senator Obama is wrong if he thinks science-based sex education has any place in kindergarten," Romney told some 150 people at a restaurant in the northern part of the state. "We should be working to clean up the filthy waters our kids are swimming in."

Crossfire 7 years, 8 months ago

...as for the video, I have 1 thing to say. ...ding, Fries are done! Would you like an Apple Pie with that?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Ag...The only thing Cox and Rev Shaver was armed with was his voice and the word of God in Scripture. I would barely call their actions violent. You fail to see the violence of ripping living human tissue from a woman's uterus. Pro-choice=ProViolence to unborn developing life and women.

Right Thinker...Obviously Tiller's Church supports him or they wouldn't have tried to shut Cox and Shaver up. I can see why you think Christians are hypocrits.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

Right_Thinker (lol)

WORLDWIDE Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000

UNITED STATES Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996) Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

p>www.agi-usa.org (funded study by Planned Parenthood)

I'm sure PP is so proud to have this feature in their cap! The are making MILLIONS every year. Nice corporation that Warren Buffet is nicely funding. Furniture and dead babies go so well together.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

oh logicsound... your unsound logic and that of your pro-death counterparts is tiresome to me as well.

purplesage 7 years, 8 months ago

The hatred and bigotry just spews forth on this one. It is interesting (shocking and disturbing) that Tiller is a member of a local church, that he is, I think, chairman of the dept. of family practice at Wesley Medical Center and that he has a chaplain on staff at the killing clinic.

This all points to the degree to which the Church can become culturalized and, as Jesus put it, "lose it savor." A similar phenomena occurred as Old Testament history records the intermingling with the Hebrew religion with that of the pagan nations around them. It was judged then and will be in our time as well.

I think these "outsiders" as some have quickly pointed out are guilty of poor manners, but nothing more. That folks get xenophobic is always an indication they are desperate.

By the way, the charge that Christians are cannibals becuase of the sacrament of Communion, or that they are guilty of incest, because they call one another brother and sister, though they may be married, is all first and second centruy hyperbole used by the Romans to discredit the rapidly advance of Truth.

deec 7 years, 8 months ago

Actually I believe the Catholic church still teaches that transubstantiation actually does convert the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. So the cannibal thing is not just leftovers from the Roman days.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years, 8 months ago

Does the sacrament of Communion not include the eating of the Body and Blood of Christ? How does that squeak around the definition of cannibalism? Not that that is a BAD thing, of course....

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Sacraments/Eucharist.asp "Catholics believe the Eucharist, or Communion, is both a sacrifice and a meal. We believe in the real presence of Jesus, who died for our sins. As we receive Christ's Body and Blood, we also are nourished spiritually and brought closer to God." "...sacrafice...meal...real presence...Body and Blood..."

I suppose it might be one of those miracle things that this doesn't clearly meet the definition of cannibalism. I don't know. It's all just words, I suppose, but the Truth seems to kind of spell it the same as the dictionary. A disclaimer "Your Truth may vary." may apply, I suppose.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

"The only thing Cox and Rev Shaver was armed with was his voice and the word of God in Scripture." --absolutelyridiculous

As was pointed out before, claiming that the communion given in that service represents the bodies of aborted fetuses is not scriptural. Most would even call it blasphemous.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

JJE007...You are correct and referencing a reliable source. These are all spiritual realities. Transubstantiation is real. There is documented, scientific evidence of this available to you if you are interested. cannibalism? I don't think so. We don't go around roasting human flesh to eat. Please don't go there with this subject.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

" Transubstantiation is real. There is documented, scientific evidence of this available to you if you are interested."

(raising my hand)

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

There IS scriptural reference to the establishment of the Eucharist. Since you are such a bible scholar, you would know this of course. I would argue that in the Luthern Church, "communion" is ONLY symbolic (another topic for discussion Mr. Rombeck). But since you are aware of the Passover connection of the institution of the Eucharist and eventual crucifixion of Jesus, then you understand this completely now don't you?

For those in search of scriptural truth surrounding the Eucharist in scripture, please see: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

nd...yes that post was for you. My impatience is showing today. For that I ask forgiveness.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

Abso, thanks for the links on transubstantiation. Interesting. Also, I agree with you that for Lutherans, communion is symbolic; that is one of the main differences between them and Catholics.

You'll notice, however, that I was not challenging your faith concerning the eucharist. You are free to believe in any way you please, and I have no right to challenge that.

What I was challenging was your statement "The only thing Cox and Rev Shaver was armed with was his voice and the word of God in Scripture." Cox, showing his true unchristian colors, stated that the communion represented the bodies of aborted fetuses. If you can show me scriptural evidence that the eucharist involves aborted fetuses, I will politely go away.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years, 8 months ago

I'm going to have to step out onto a wooden plank hanging over the fires of hell and say I don't believe, or believe it's wise or necessary to believe, in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist. I don't believe it's cannibalism. If you do believe in transubstatiation then I don't see how you can ditch the notion that it's cannibalism, though. That's just crazy old me talking. I'll talk even more crazy and say that I believe that we are all of one body and created in one image. Whether we have something not of our flesh that might be eternal, I couldn't say. I could be crazier still and say: You see it's like the body is a piece of metal and the soul is a magnet. We call it our brain when it's in the body... and it is,

because the metal is magnetized when the soul is in contact with it.

It's actually possible to leave the body, and travel as soul, while one is still alive, but most can't bring themselves to do it.

The body is like a child always crying to be fed. We want it to grow up and be a fine example for the world. Indeed, that is the limit of its power,

but its power is very limited and it is generally selfish by nature and necessity. The soul feels sorry for the body and comes to believe

that it cannot live without it. There is a communion there that must be made in its time and broken in its time. There is a communion that

is necessary and a growth that is beyond that union. We are surrounded

and surrounding. We are flesh and spirit. Do not hold so closely to, or weep for, your flesh.

It is living in its time and you may live beyond it.

bjbrown 7 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Cait McKnelly 7 years, 8 months ago

Ok from now on I won't say "maroons". I'll say what I should have said in the first place. "Morons". Although I'm still scratching my head over how the name of a shade of red became associated with racism. I googled and googled over this and the consensus is that it dates form the 1940s, was popularized by Bugs Bunny (no joke!) and that it means precisely what I used it as in context, "morons". So if someone wants to chastise me or you for using it in that way and says that it's racist let them produce lexiconographic proof and I'll tip my hat to them.

cath 7 years, 8 months ago

I first heard "maroon" watching Bugs Bunny epsiodes as a kid. I thought it sounded a bit nicer than "moron". Until reading the post about it, I had no idea it was considered a racial slur.

What religion were these two guys? It says one is an ordained minister, but what, if any, denomination do they belong to?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 8 months ago

nd...well then, there will be no scriptural reference to aborted fetuses of course. I'm going to speculate that Cox/Shaver was making an analogy of the body of Christ and aborted fetuses. Have you ever considered the scourging at the pillar comparable to a public "abortion"? Sure, it's not the fetus, but the actual body of Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ, still on Earth. That's a lot to wrap our brains around.

JJ...still hooked on the cannibalism thing huh? Check out this post. Might help clarify what the Church might say about this. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=75126

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

Abso says:

"I'm going to speculate that Cox/Shaver was making an analogy of the body of Christ and aborted fetuses."

I will then speculate that a vast majority of christians and non-christians alike in this country would think that analogy as poor, in terrible taste, and probably blasphemous.

"Have you ever considered the scourging at the pillar comparable to a public "abortion"? Sure, it's not the fetus, but the actual body of Christ."

No. The word "abortion" only refers to a fetus...ever. Period.

"The Church is the Body of Christ, still on Earth. That's a lot to wrap our brains around."

Not really. In my mind it's just another absurd metaphor. But you are certainly welcome to believe that -- it's a free country.

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

I said "No. The word "abortion" only refers to a fetus:ever. Period." In all fairness, I should qualify that remark. The word "abort" is also used when scuttling a space flight or other NASA/military operation....which also has nothing to do with Jesus or the eucharist.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

A fetus is not a baby. That which hasn't been born cannot die. Your rhetoric is old and tired, anti-choice crowd.

Fine, call the developing human being within a mother's womb a "fetus".

The most important argument is whether or not one believes the fetus is a member of the human family. As this is a rather obvious argument then one needs to decide if it is ethical or unethical to kill human beings b/c of their size, location, development or dependency on others?

Is it morally acceptable for one to commit murder if one's victim is small, not fully developed, yet is fully dependent on onself and in a location where one's victim's objections can't be heard (although there is plenty of definitive evidence to indicate a fetus feels pain)?

Just b/c our government chooses to recognize the murder of defenseless human beings no differently than it recognizes the mere medical procedure for removing a mole or a wart doesn't mean that it is right to do so. Instead this is a terrible stain on our whole country.

It is the fantastic, disingenuous and self-centered rhetoric of the pro-death crowd which unfortunately continues to this day.

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

"purplesage (Anonymous) says:

The hatred and bigotry just spews forth on this one."

Perhaps, but something tells me you're only allowing yourself to see about half of it.

"Dubya45 says: It is the fantastic, disingenuous and self-centered rhetoric of the pro-death crowd"

I get great amusement out of your ability to say that by using fantastic, disingenuous and self-centered rhetoric. One very rarely gets treated to such a perfect example of verbal irony (or written-verbal as the case may be) in the world outside of internet and political forums.

deec 7 years, 8 months ago

If a fetus is aborted prior to the development of nerve endings and a brain, how does it feel pain?

Crossfire 7 years, 8 months ago

Anonymous user

deec sez, ...transubstantiation actually does convert the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ ...so when a Catholic eats a hot does Jesus smile?

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

Irony... I guess like when one 19-20 week old "fetus" is "born" and so has human rights and another 19-20 month old "fetus" is pickled, suffocated or has it's brain sucked out and is considered a glob of tissue

Irony... I guess like when one is considered a "murder suspect" and brought up on charges for murdering an "unborn child" while another is considered a respected doctor and Christian for aborting hundreds and even thousands of "fetuses".

Irony... like how we consider Hitler (but seldom Stalin,Mao or Pol Pot) a mad man and a devil for killing millions yet we as a society support, defend and encourage the kiling of more millions.

Ironic how those in the pro-death crowd presume they are intellectually superior to the pro-life crowd yet they are incapabe of understanding how even a mere fetus is part of the human race.

One can only wonder and fear the pro-death crowd which presumes it is okay to kill a human being, apparently, due to it's size, location, development and dependency?

In typical psychotic defense they insist the fate of the unborn is the choice of one intent upon it's destruction or that those concerned for it should mind their own business.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Why aren't you christians out helping the poor, comforting the sad and lonely, aiding the disadvantaged?

Instead of real works, you engage in an ideological battle over fetuses. You are a ridiculouss parody of christianity.

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

Really, Dubya 45, there was no need to reinforce my point. It was already established in a perfectly acceptable fashion. At least, for me it was. Maybe some other folk were still having trouble following it, so I guess you did them a favor, at the very least.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

We are out helping the poor, sad, etc., Google it.

How bigoted of you to imply concern for one group of disadvantaged people as neither of you seem mature enough or otherwise capable of facing the reality of the pro-death, abortion position you've taken.

I'm happy to discuss the relevant issue with you which is, do you, or, do you not, consider the fetus/unborn child part of the human family? If not, why? Further, what exactly is it about the fetus/unborn child that causes you to feel justified in supporting a US policy of their extermination, size, location, dependency or development?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"I'm happy to discuss the relevant issue with you which is, do you, or, do you not, consider the fetus/unborn child part of the human family?"

Good. Let's talk. I do not consider a fertilized egg or blastocyst to be a human being. It is a human embryo. It has no nervous system, no organs, and is just a mass of undifferentiated cells.

Also, I do not consider a mid-gestation fetus a human being. It has a rudimentary nervous system and is completely dependent on the mother for viability.

A late-term fetus is a bit murkier. While I personally do not consider it a human being, because it has had no experience or interactions with other humans except the mother, I can understand arguments that a late-term fetus is an individual human being.

I generally agree with the restrictions on late-term abortions, balanced with the rights of the mother in cases of health.

Some questions for you: 1) When do you believe human life begins and why?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"An "ideological battle" over BABIES?

woo freaking hoo!"

Marion, a fetus is not a baby, and you know it.

lounger 7 years, 8 months ago

Im all for a woman having rights but putting your hand on someones mouth goes against everything this country stands for. People have died over the years in wars so we can have the right to choose and the right to speak!

Emily Hadley 7 years, 8 months ago

So he got out of jail and went straight to some kind of music festival?

ndmoderate 7 years, 8 months ago

Agno,

What happened in Topeka? Now that I moved I'm woefully out of the loop!

pelliott 7 years, 8 months ago

I am pretty sure if he stayed out of the church and didn't interupt the service he could of protested 24/7

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

Nightmare, I respect your perspectives but feel they were off the mark. You seemed to assert a quantitative analysis whereby you might determine when the fetus becomes human but your data seemed mostly qualitative in nature. Meanwhile, I maintain that the fetus is human because that's all it's ever been. It's always been human because it's always been part of the human family regardless of its development, size, dependency or development.

Relative to the first trimester of pregnancy and pain. A 7 ½ week old fetus opens its mouth & pulls its hand away when pricked with a needle. But, is the fetus feeling pain? In the before mentioned experiment, Nociceptors (pain receptors) were shown to discharge electrical responses to the spinal cord & brain. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except the back and top of the head, are sensitive to pain." By the end of the first trimester the fetus is fully sentient & mobile.

Relative to mid-term pregnancies. The fetus born today, as early as 19 weeks, is characteristically viable with an excellent rate of survival. So then, why Is the fetus born at 19 weeks "human" yet the aborted one, same age, is not? Your description of a mid-term fetus hardly seems indicative of babies born during the second trimester of pregnancy.

Regarding the last trimester, or late-term, your indication was the fetus is still not human. Recently a teenage boy stomped on the stomach of his pregnant girlfriend killing the 8 month old fetus she carried. The young man was brought up on murder charges for the death of the unborn ~ 32 week old fetus she carried. How can he be charged with murder if the life he ended wasn't human? When a similar fate befalls a fetus at the hands of an abortionist there are no charges just payment due for services rendered.

Now, you asked, 1) When do you believe human life begins and why?

I believe human life begins at conception. Even if initially the new life is only a mass of seemingly random cells w/o nerve-endings, it is still a unique human life. It is part of the human family b/c it never left the human family. As a new human life, it deserves every kindness, every right & every grace one might extend or receive. The question isn't or shouldn't be, ""when" does the fetus become human" but rather, ""is" the fetus part of the human family"?

How anyone can presume that since a human life starts out microscopic and b/c its voice can't be heard then it is okay to kill is beyond my comprehension. We have so much technology at our disposal and daily it's becoming more obvious human life begins at conception. It's almost as if we've covered our eyes and ears and just don't want to believe it's true. Thanks.

Indigosky 7 years, 8 months ago

I think that John Irvings's Cider House Rules should be required reading for anyone who has an opinion about a Woman's Right to Choose. You should all run out and buy a copy and abstain from posting for a while.

Indigosky 7 years, 8 months ago

John Irving's character, Dr. Larch delivers orphans and ends pregnancies. Irving writes very sympathetically about young girls who are incests victims, pregnant prostitutes and young women who are not ready to begin families. Some come to Dr Larch for abortions, some to deliver their babies and leave them to be adopted. All of the women come in shame. Dr. Larch treats each woman with gentleness and respect. Dr Larch does believe that it is a womans right to choose but his young apprentice Homer Wells, once an orphan himself, will not perform abortions. The story follows Homer through his early life and education and the reader witnesses Homer's metamorphoses into adulthood. I can't do the story justice but it is a must read when considering this topic.

As a very young woman I chose to give my son up for adoption. It was a very lonely, shameful and difficult time and although I have a beautiful family of my own now, there will always be a void in my life. I do not believe it is my place to tell another woman what she can or cannot do with her body. There are far too many circumstances and situations. I'm very offended by the idea that some people believe that this is a decision they can make for others. I don't regret my decision, my son became a lovely man who was blessed with wonderful adoptive parents but I would not wish my experience on anyone.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"I believe human life begins at conception."

Please define "conception". What exactly do you mean?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"Meanwhile, I maintain that the fetus is human because that's all it's ever been. It's always been human because it's always been part of the human family regardless of its development, size, dependency or development."

This is nonsense. What evidence do you have to make this statement? A blastocyst is clearly not a human being.

"By the end of the first trimester the fetus is fully sentient & mobile." Huh? Fully mobile? What do you mean. Fully sentient? How do you know this? Has a fetus spoken to you and given its thoughts?

You have not made arguments or presented data, only dogma about what you believe.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"Relative to the first trimester of pregnancy and pain. A 7 ½ week old fetus opens its mouth & pulls its hand away when pricked with a needle. But, is the fetus feeling pain? In the before mentioned experiment, Nociceptors (pain receptors) were shown to discharge electrical responses to the spinal cord & brain. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except the back and top of the head, are sensitive to pain.""

So this is all it takes to be a human being? Response to touch? I guess this makes about any organism with a nervous system a human being. Are you a member of PETA?

"How can he be charged with murder if the life he ended wasn't human?"

This is circular logic.

"We have so much technology at our disposal and daily it's becoming more obvious human life begins at conception."

What technology and what evidence do you reference here?

"It is part of the human family b/c it never left the human family."

Please explain. This seems like a nonsensical statement to me.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

RIght back at 'cha hot shot.

Start unloading those references not your beliefs or your morals. Only objective raw data. Show me the unadulterated, raw data. I want to see the methods and protocols. I want to see the scientist's hypothesis for generating the data. I want the statistics and explanations for groupings and such. And, perhaps, most importantly, I want to know who funded the research and their rationale for supporting it. Then I'll consider the results. Curiously, have you ever worked outside of university?

"A blastocyst is clearly not a human being". - All I said was it is part of the human family. Still don't understand? Look it up, you seem incapable of grasping the depth of the issues we're discussing.

By the end of the first trimester the fetus is fully sentient & mobile." "Huh? Fully mobile? What do you mean. Fully sentient? How do you know this? Has a fetus spoken to you and given its thoughts?" - Alright genius, Google "developmental neurology in human fetuses". While I have no suggestions to help with the second part, I was very blessed to be able to see repeated sonograms of my son while my wife was pregnant.

Your perception of when one "becomes human" is egocentric and, frankly, a bit naive. No, no... a lot naive. It's like, this one's to small, this one isn't developed enough, this one is inside the woman's body, this one is to clingy with mommie and won't let go.

Further, you seem angry with me and I'm not sure why. I gave you some pretty compelling examples of why you can't be so downright despotic when it comes to having some unabridged point at which a hunk of goo becomes a human being.

Finally, I really have to say that I believe your incongruous views of this subject comes from a likely preference or support for killing human beings prior while unborn. I don't know why one would have such a view but these are the least defensible people on earth and I will do all I can to stand in front of those who would murder these for as long as I can.

PS, I think conception occurs just a smidge prior to the new human life becoming a "blastocyst". I guess I'm a humble enough guy that it doesn't bother me to have one-time been a blastocyst. Thanks.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"PS, I think conception occurs just a smidge prior to the new human life becoming a "blastocyst""

What do you mean? Do you mean fertilization of an egg by a sperm? What? What event defines a new human being, and why do you believe this to be so?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Ag,

When crazies go on about people who want to kill babies, I just stop reading. I am trying to find the reasons undelying their assumptions, reasons that could be used to convince non-christians and the non-religious about their position.

Schlock about "the human family" and "never been anything but human" are ridiculous and fall well short of the mark.

One need not think just about fertility clinics, but all of the early pregnancies that terminate due to natural causes. Upwards of 60% off all pregnancies (post-blastocyst stage) fail, often due to failure of the blastocyst to implant into the uterus. What about these "human beings". Shouldn't something be done?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

"I think "fetal viability outside the womb" is as good a yardstick as any for answering the question, "When does life begin?""

I think this is part of the equation. However, this is difficult to judge a priori. For example, it is impossible to know for sure if a fetus is viable outside the womb until it is removed and placed in an incubator. It is a difficult judgement to make without doing the deed.

All judgements about when human life begins are arbitrary and have no basis in fact. The best, most practical arbitrary mark is the post-partum mark, when the fetus is physically separate from the mother, whether by birth or caesarean, full term or premie. It is a judgement based not on "when life begins", but on when does the fetus stop being a part of a sentient human being.

Our common law has reflected this for millenia, and I see no reason to change it.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

Ag, I apologize for offending you, I am quite sincere about this and since you are here I must tell you that, typically, I find myself, appreciating your point of view even your post above.

I will try to describe the truth of that statement, while it was harsh is hard to deny even though one may be a bit naive. The intrinsic humanity of an unborn child makes it a person. As such, it should receive the same rights of protection under the law (US) that you and I enjoy. Nonetheless, it would appear Nightmare and those sharing his point of view agree that, yes, a person is a human being unless, of course, the fetus hasn't been physically separated from its mother. Since one hasn't been born yet, personhood will be defined in any way possible so as to exclude, kill and forget one.

Nevertheless, this exchange is revealing a decidedly "bush-league" nature relevant to my antagonist. Rather than defend his claims or refute mine, he merely chirps with seemingly uninformed wisecracks or an opinion or two. Further, it's not as if one cannot educate oneself on these issues yet my opposer seems simply to refuse to do so. Yet, as he previously indicated, he has stopped reading my post and so I may have opportunity for the last word.

Regarding the cake, a better analogy would be if all the ingredients were mixed and prepared and waiting to be placed in the oven. Regarding IVF, I believe this to be unethical too. You must understand that just b/c many people agree that it's okay or perhaps haven't thought or don't care about it still doesn't make it ethical. Regarding stem-cell research, I am quite supportive of the use of adults and amniotic/placental or "cord-blood" (Nightmare, if you are, by chance reading, Google this too) to isolate stem-cells but not embryos.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

I am not in favor of using any leftover embryos for stem-cell research. Actually, stem-cell research is quite relevant to the crux of the issue I present. Why do Stowers Institute researchers want to use them? As a successfully fertilized egg, or zygote, it has the entire DNA from both parents, 50% from each. As I previously indicated, human life begins at conception. The fertilized egg merely needs a place to cook and the best place for that to occur is still inside the womb of the mother.

Researchers see the obvious benefit of using a spare person in the same way a mechanic uses a spare engine to scavenge replacement parts for the engine in his car. You have to replace like with like. Unfortunately, it is necessary to kill the one so that its parts may be used on the other. If one accepts that Embryonic Stem-Cell Research is valid one must at the same time accept that a human life begins at conception, otherwise, at some level you will find yourself being a hypocrite left only with accepting whether or not it is okay to kill a person b/c they are defenseless.

Regarding, the practice of fertilizing eggs with sperm and incubating so the resulting embryo can be harvested for stem-cells seems no better use than harvesting them for stem-cell research. For invitro fertilization it is necessary to fertilize and incubate as many as 15-20 eggs at a time, hoping one will stick to the lining of the uterus. Perhaps, if the technology of IVF improves to the point where none of the embryos are lost or allowed to die then it might be more ethically acceptable to me. Blastocyst (Yeah Nightmare!) transfer offers an improvement over older IVF technology in this respect.

"Our common law has reflected this for millennia, and I see no reason to change it". - Why, how traditional/conservative of you. Spoken just as those who went before us believing the earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Thank goodness science has dispensed with such foolish notions over the years. Now, be careful you don't sail to close to the edge and fall off.

I've got to run. Ag, let me know if you want to discuss some more, perhaps email me and I will send you my email address. Thanks.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Dubya45,

I will ask a simple question again, and I hope you answer it this time.

1) Why do you believe that a human life begins ar fertilization?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Or, it that wording blinds you to the real question, here it is rephrased:

Why do you believe that a single-celled, fertilized human zygote is the ethical and moral equivalent of an adult human being?

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Dubya45,

Why do you refuse to answer the question? Your comments on this matter show much conviction and force, so I would assume that you have very good reasons for believing that a fertilized single celled zygote is the moral, ethical, and apparently legal equivalent to an adult human.

I would like to understand these reasons.

Dubya, you were the one who wanted to talk about this, posting: "I'm happy to discuss the relevant issue with you which is, do you, or, do you not, consider the fetus/unborn child part of the human family?"

I have given you a summation of my thoughts on when a human being comes into existence and some of the reasons for my position. I just want to know the reasons for your beliefs on this subject.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 8 months ago

Here are some more reasons for my position: The pre-implantation blastocyst is not a human being: -Has not implanted into the uterus and begun embryonic development. -Few or no differentiated tissues. -No nervous system. -Not viable outside the womb. -Bears no resemblance to an adult human. Looks more like a volvox.

The post-implantation blastocyst is not a human being: -Some differentiated tissues, but few functioning organ systems. -No nervous system. -Not viable outside the womb. -Bears no resemblance to an adult human. Looks more like a volvox.

The mid-term fetus is not likely a human being: -Has differentiated tissues and organs. -Has a primoridial nervous system and can respond to outside stimuli, but cerebral cortex development has not begun. -Not viable outside the womb.

The late-term fetus might be a human being: -Has a more advanced nervous system, but cerebral cortex development is nascent. -Can live outside the womb, but is still dependent on the mother for nourishment and waste removal. -Is still physically attached to the mother.

It is for these reasons that I support abortions rights for early and mid-term pregnancies but agree that some restrictions on late-term pregnancies are warranted.

I also believe that a woman, as a sentient human being, has sovereign authority over her own body, and thus support late term abortion if the life or health of the mother is threatened.

Jamesaust 7 years, 8 months ago

"As I previously indicated, human life begins at conception. The fertilized egg merely needs a place to cook and the best place for that to occur is still inside the womb of the mother."

First of all, conception is a process, not an event. There is no 'big bang'. There is merely one more stage of the process - a process that begins before and will continue later but only at some point before the END will result in a human being.

Second, even after conception, absent implantation in the uterun wall, human life will NEVER result. That's 100% of the time. That's 'no exceptions.' Thus, practically, human life CANNOT begin prior to this point.

Third, there is no human life "at" conception but only the potential for human life. This potential is only slightly more substantive than it was BEFORE conception. (And, indeed, under medieval - that is, Church - thinking, that's precisely why male masturbation is sinful: it "kills" the potential human life. Unfortunately, its easier to discover scientific truth than it is to un-construct the whole structure of theological thinking based upon un-scientific, un-truth, which is why - even in the 21st century - we still find people making comments like that quoted above.)

Finally, nothing in religion or science demarks the point that a human being comes into existence. Religiously, its blasphemous to state that one knows for certain what this point is when only God can know - and he's not telling. Scientifically, says so is fraudulent.

Thus, one needs not (and the vast majority of persons has not) adopt either extremist view: that life begins at conception and so every termination of a pregnancy by human hands is the murder of a human being (the 50% of pregnancies that end by the hand of Nature or Nature's God are somehow not murder by some unspecified manner of hocus pocus), nor that until birth the termination of a pregnancy is a morality-free subject, that "choice" doesn't occur "at" conception but is a process that ends only at birth.

Bradley Menze 7 years, 8 months ago

Yes, Nightmare, you are quite correct. I had previously invited a friendly discourse of ideas regarding this premiss, however, after several days receiving rather jejune, doltish comments from you in response to my posts, I, quite simply, lost interest in further exposition. Besides, you indicated rather clearly you were no longer reading my posts. Best regards.

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