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Let High-Schoolers Go to Bed On-Time


An online poll "Should high school schedules be changed so students can sleep in?", an On The Street question, "Should high schools start later in the day so kids can get more sleep?", and finally, the news story, "Let high-schoolers sleep in, state health officer says", has propagated the idea that high school students do not get enough sleep.

The poll and On The Street question ask if high school should start later to allow students to get more sleep. The state's top health officer at the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, Dr. Jason Eberhart-Phillips, warns of "what he calls 'teenage sleep deprivation' — a mounting problem that’s becoming even more of a concern for teachers, parents and health professionals." Eberhart-Phillips stated that teenagers require nine to 10 hours of sleep each day. Part of his solution is to "Work with school districts to push back start times at high schools."

Dr. Eberhart-Phillips has bought into two fallacies. First, that the time a person wakes-up determines the amount of sleep acquired. Second, that state entities are so powerful as to increase the amount of hours in a day.

Dispelling the first fallacy is the fact that the amount of time slept determines the amount of sleep acquired. The total time slept is the difference between the wake time and bedtime. More sleep can be achieved by adjusting either end of the equation. In other words: Go to bed on-time. Correcting the second fallacy would require a change in physics, astronomy, and world-wide accepted conventions to add hours to the current 24 Hour day.

In the interest of public service and preempting all of the problems associated with moving the start time of the high schools, two possible solutions are offered.

Solution One - Calculate the Correct Bedtime:

Calculate the time that high school students must go to bed in order to obtain the required amount of sleep. Since the amount of sleep required has been determined to be nine to 10 hours per day, this example will split the difference and provide for 9 hours and 30 minutes of sleep. This is complicated. I know it must be since high school students, teachers, administrators, parents, and the PhD at KDHE can not figure it out. So, follow closely.

  • Determine the time school begins: 8:05 AM
  • Determine time required to get to school: 15 minutes.
  • Determine time required to get ready for school: 45 minutes.
  • Determine total sleep time required: 9 hours, 30 minutes.
  • Add total time required between bedtime and school beginning: 10 hours, 30 minutes.
  • Subtract 10 hours, 30 minutes from 8:05 AM. Since this is advanced math, go to next step.
  • Click the image below and calculate your teenager's bedtime (if different from example).

Solution Two - Individual Responsibility:

  1. Determine if a student needs more sleep; ask them.
  2. Validate step one: Locate students napping in school.
  3. Validate steps one and two: check for poor performance.
  4. Tell students that need more sleep (identified in steps 1, 2, and 3) to go to bed earlier.
  5. Tell parents that setting a curfew is part of parenting.
  6. Tell parents that enforcing a curfew is parenting.
  7. Remind parents that parenting is not the same as being a friend.

The Most Important Step:

Parents, take responsibility for parenting your teen. Teens, take responsibility for yourself - go to bed on time. Dr. Jason Eberhart-Phillips, please, just concentrate on the pig flu.

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beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Why ignore scientific studies on sleep and teens that show that a later start time means more productive high school students? Ignoring recent research on this issue is ridiculous. Instilling discipline seems more important for some than making a change that would lead to more productive teens.

DIST, I'm surprised that you suggest that Dr. Eberhart-Phillips study something else, just because you don't like his findings. He is far from alone on this.

"In 1996, the suburban school system of Edina, Minn., changed its start time for 3,000 high school students from 7:25 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. Two years later, Minneapolis followed suit for more than 50,000 teenagers.

Teachers reported that students were more alert, and research conducted by Wahlstrom showed a range of benefits to students and teachers -- and contradicted some of the biggest fears about the change: that after-school sports and jobs would suffer." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/09/AR2006010901561.html

funkdog1 5 years, 2 months ago

But it's not just the number of hours that teens sleep that make a difference. There have been several studies that have shown that the majority of teenagers have a body clock that's shifted later in the day, thus waking up later and going to bed later is actually advantageous for them.

verity 5 years, 2 months ago

Very easy to say, but not so easy to do.

funkdog1 5 years, 2 months ago

Nope. There are several reputable studies that show that as people enter their teen years they are more awake later at night and its harder for them to get up early in the morning. It's a very real, very natural pheonomenon.




funkdog1 5 years, 2 months ago

Read the studies. They stay up later because they can't get to sleep. And then they have trouble getting up for school.

You can go by your beliefs all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're purposely choosing to ignore studies with measurable results and go with what you believe as truth.

I was THRILLED when they started coming out with these studies. As a student in the 1980s, I fit right into these perameters. When I went to college, I scheduled all my classes later in the day. I also tried to work in the evenings whenever possible. These days, it's easier for me to get up for school with my daughter than it ever was when I was a teenager. I missed lots of classes to sleep in late, and I never went to bed past 10 p.m.

Yeah, I know I don't make a study all by myself, but these studies confirmed what I went through for about 10 years.

RoeDapple 5 years, 2 months ago

No matter what changes are made, you can't change teen behavior. Being a teen means pushing boundaries, exploring new emotions, discovering themselves. No scheduling change will force them to sleep 9 to 10 hours per day.

booyalab 5 years, 2 months ago

Well, it means that since society decided that several decades ago. It doesn't have to. I would argue that the people who succeeded the most at "discovering themselves" tend to be homeless. Without civilized codes of behavior, people are basically monkeys.

RoeDapple 5 years, 2 months ago

And I would say the homeless succeeded the least . . .

grammaddy 5 years, 2 months ago

Good blog DIST!! Do your job as a parent and enforce a decent bedtime. High school should be preparing these kids for the real world.Lots of jobs start even earlier than school does.It's not the system that is broken, it's the parenting skills.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Hard to believe that the students who show improvement in school as a result of a later start time are really just children of bad parents.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Of course the context is limited. Despite the science to support a later school time, few have changed. Until more change, there will naturally be a limited context. Kind of a Catch-22, wouldn't you say?

What time do schools in other countries begin? Seeing as how American schooling is ranked something like 30th in the world, what time do the more successful programs in the world begin?

thelonious 5 years, 2 months ago

Good luck getting teenagers to go to bed at 9:30 pm.....you probably also think that if teens are not taught about sex, they won't have it.....nothing like a little head in the sand now, is there?

Richard Heckler 5 years, 2 months ago

I have 3 children and they were and are night owls. Growing children need all the sleep they can get which is our philosophy. Our two oldest did not and our youngest does not like early morning hours.

I do not see any point in making children get up early. When children get jobs they learn what is necessary to meet the demand.

There is simply not one set of rules regarding parenting.

I do not have a favorite dessert.

There is nothing wrong with setting different school hours. I say people can make most tasks work if they want to.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Hmmm, I wonder if the kids in the elementary schools in Lawrence that start at 8:45 do better that the kids that start at 7:50 or 8.

Prairielander 5 years, 2 months ago

I can't see how changing the start time will increase sleep. I'm on my third teenager (and long ago I was one myself). The later they have to get up, the later they stay up. My first needed a good 8 hrs and was usually in bed by 10:30-11:00 (kinda like my wife who is generally comatose by 9:30). The second kid routinely stays up until 12:30-1:00am (kinda like his Dad). The last one is more like Dad, but has days where she shuts down real early. My point is that MOST kids sleep as much as they need. I also don't agree with the "work-ethic" myth that kids need to learn to get up early because it will eventually be required by their job. It isn't required by mine and I don't require it of anyone that works for me. You have a job to do and you get it done on time...or you lose the job. When you show up to work is irrelevant. My most productive hours are generally 4 pm to Midnight, but it's not unusual for me to be on the road headed to the airport at 4:30 in the morning. You do what you gotta do.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 2 months ago

WE can make anything work!

How To Get More Substance Out of Education

*School hours: 9:30 AM - 4:30 PM(more sleep) Eliminates public school traffic from the morning rush hour. If students need dropped off a bit early perhaps lab work,art projects,wood working or exercise could be scheduled.

Exercise = power walk,swimming,cycling/elliptical or aerobics

Exercise = get the blood moving. Exercise = weight maintenance Exercise = prevents osteoporosis Exercise = 0n the elliptical keeps knees strong Exercise = time to wake up again Exercise = energy generation ( sometime between 11-2 each day new energy is welcome)

*Is there necessarily any need for students to be doing class per se 5 days a week?

*The objective in fact is to empower the student, feed comprehension, improve testing, to be productive in addition creating a less stressful environment yet more interesting. Being able to devote whole days to home work and exercise during the school week surely would be beneficial.

Thinking outside the box - Beginning at the Junior High Level

*Let's talk 3 days in class and two days to read, do written homework and exercise. The two days could be done in the classroom and/or study hall with exercise scheduled in the gym. Every student does exercise time no matter what.

*Yes the the teaching staff would still be at school 5 days a week. No doubt they could find plenty to do. Grading papers,preparing for tests/lab experiments etc etc.

*Teaching staff in fact puts in plenty of time after hours perhaps these two days would be helpful. Not only would they be doing themselves some benefit but also be there for students who have questions and/or need assistance with homework. It would seem that two days available for assisting students,if necessary, plus scheduled exercise time would be equally as beneficial as "class time". Doing art projects or lab work perhaps?

*The school library would be open as well for research.

*This suggested new scheduling would be preparing students for the college and/or Vo-Tech daily routine.

*Could it save revenue? Who knows?

*Why not declare Tuesday and Thursday as days for study and exercise? Both of which are good for the brain cells?

*Again this suggested new scheduling would be preparing students for the college and/or Vo-Tech daily routine.

Change is sometimes difficult but maybe the time has come.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Aren't you glad merrill homeschools his kids? Can you imagine him as a parent in your kid's class, in the PTA? Which curriculum provider do you use merrill? I can see him handing the teacher a stack of homework to read every night. Wouldn't class parties be so much fun? Oh and my college student was on campus by 7:30 am many mornings.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 2 months ago

Homeschool offers a wonderful variety of curriculum to choose from. Home school is not for everyone. Then again neither is Transcendental Meditation.

Public education is a best bang for the tax buck no question about it.

USD 497 has always worked with homeschoolers as has KU. Which is to say there are mountains of resources and no reason not to see the value in the community.

Changing class times should not be that big of a deal. There must be many positive aspects. Pehaps one day this matter will come before the public after the concept has been well thought out.

concernedeudoravoter 5 years, 2 months ago

Having educators in my family I see both sides of this argument. Having teenagers I see both sides of this argument. But, one of the messages that we send the young adults of the world by changing 'things' (such as starting and stopping times) to meet their needs is a lack of long term responsibility and culpability. When the youth of today get to college, trade school, the military or the work force, they are unfortunately going to have to abide by schedules. If they don't, they will find themselves without a career, unless they are able to become self-employed or find a job that allows them the option of flex-time. We all strive to teach our children responsibility and self reliance. Is changing the start time of high-school accomplishing that?

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Nope, not unless you want to hang it all on the topic o'day. A good idea a newly discovered problem, "allowing children to get more sleep by moving HS start time back will improve student performance." Because children who get enough sleep perfom better than children who don't get enough sleep. The government/schools must do something about the problem. Then things would be swell, student performance will get better.

Well - you have to have faith the schedule change will actually change teenager's sleep wake cycle.

More likely children who have parents that structure their children's lives to be healthy and get enough sleep will perform at a higher level than children who unhappily do not have healthy structure to their lives.

Too many variables, coorelational/ad hoc evidence at best. Moving start time will not guarantee teenagers will sleep one more minute.

Now, if we could just cure the common cold, then things would really be swell.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Nice sidestepping merrill. Properly homeschooled kids should be able to pass the GED test.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

"But, one of the messages that we send the young adults of the world by changing 'things' (such as starting and stopping times) to meet their needs is a lack of long term responsibility and culpability."

So we are setting our children up to fail with Daylight Savings Time?

Sorry, but we adjust schedules to fit the needs of people all the time. Having kids go to school at a time that will biologically be the most beneficial for them is hardly giving them a lack of responsibility. If anything, it shows them that as adults we want them to become set in their ways and refuse to be flexible.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Correct. Except for the Navajo nation, Arizona does not observe DST. We really do not need an extra hour of sunlight during the summer here. Instead of just going along with the rest of the country, AZ had the good sense to do what was best for its people.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Really? Thanks for letting me know. I honestly thought for sure the chariot pulling the giant ball of fire across the sky stayed in the heavens an extra hour during daylight savings! Now I understand! It is all just a trick with clocks and mirrors!

(rolling my eyes)

Just think, the time when students would benefit the most by moving the clock back an hour is actually in the summer time, when they aren't in school.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Posted this on Caring Teachers but got no aswer, maybe here someone knows.

Got to wondering if all the principals in Lawrence have PHDs, the school district website really doesn't give any information on the principals that I could see. Will try to navigate the site when I have more time. Does anyone know?

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago


The blog is spot on. Institutionalizing every good idea is balderdash. What is the next good idea our arcane institution called the public school system will concoct? Or the next 2 through 2,002? If this is a one piece at a time reform program, I can't wait for the next good idea.

Where I choose to work, the first tardy is strike 1. Strike 3 and you are out with no recourse. It's in the contract. No exceptions, no recourse. It is the quickest way out of a well compensated job/carreer.

I choose to get up early, sometimes 3-4am. Early time is my time, when I arrive at work the synapses do not need start up time. Therefore I am predisposed to go to bed early to get my 8.5 hours.

This concept of moving school start times because it is a good idea is chicken and egg crapola.

Get a good ambulance chasing lawyer and test the water, maybe it can be sold to a jury in a class action law suit.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago


It's called organizing people - I hope trauma surgeon didn't choose to flex hours when the ambulance delivers you to the emergency room.

Early to bed, early to rise ...

my bank account? put 4 children through college, only one stoodunt left on my dime now

My wealth is in my children and grand children. There are some details I must work on before I check out of this existance - need to either liquidate some real properties or let my survivors work out the details.

Will Rogers says, "Why don’t they pass a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as good as Prohibition did, in five years we will have the smartest people on earth."

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

i counsel my children to enjoy the college life, give yourself to the experience, gain some knowledge, it'll pay you dividends when you're sitting in the rocking chair on the front porch in your latter years.

All there is to success is satisfaction. (Will Rogers)

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

"Early to bed, early to rise ..."

If you finish the quote, you will note that it will make a "man" healthy, wealthy and wise, not a "teen."

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

I was raised Baptist. Trust me, I turned from it.

Have you even looked at any of the studies on this? I'm really not understanding the hard stand you are taking. If science shows that a later start time really is beneficial to students, why deny it? Is it because you had to wake up early when you were younger, so now you think others must do the same? Just because you had to walk uphill through 5 miles of snow while going to and from school each day doesn't mean today's students should have to as well.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 2 months ago

Probverbs 22:6 Now you sound like my mother; Thanks for the PTSD trigger.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 2 months ago

On top of that I put a 'B" in proverbs.

Armored_One 5 years, 2 months ago

All this noise about kids and biological clocks and a lot of other absolute foolishness.

Anybody bothered to wonder if the TEACHERS want to work later than they already do? If they have to conduct class until 5 in the evening, they won't be efinished what they need to do until at the very least midnight, considering they still need time with THEIR familes too, you bunch of child coddlers.

How about sports? Do we just wad that concept up and chuck it in the trash can? Football practice until 7 or 8 at night, when most families try to eat between 6 and 7... or any other sport, in truth.

I know, let have school buses run when traffic is horrible. That should improve traffic issues by leaps and bounds.

George Carlin, who is probably making the dead laugh the way he made the living laugh, said it best when he said we have a child fetish.


Kelly Johnson 5 years, 2 months ago

I hated school and dropped out as soon as I hit 16. Part of the reason was how early I had to get up (I lived in the country, long bus ride). I got my GED and started working at a retail job where i didn't have to be at work until 9 or 10 most days, and it changed my life. I had no problem getting up and being at work on time, and being productive while I was there, just because it was more compatible with my natural body clock

I've always been a night owl. I still am, and I work evenings because of it, but unfortunately I still have to get up at 6 am every day to get my kids ready for school. Now that they are all in school for a full day, I can go back to bed if I choose to and I actually feel better now than I have in literally years because my body is finally getting enough sleep at around the same general time that it wants it.

With the way our world is today, there are numerous options for when you can go to work or if you even go to work - lots of people work from home. There are still plenty of jobs that have set start times, but people have more choice now than ever before, which means that the argument that children should be forced to go to school early "because they'll have to do it for work someday" doesn't hold up. Sure, they might have to - but it will more than likely be their choice to do so, which means as responsible adults they will decide if/how to adjust their sleep schedules to accomodate their employment choices.

School from 8-3 is 7 hours. If students work in the evenings it's likely a minimum of 4 hours. Add in 1.5 hrs for time to wake up/eat/commute in the morning and commute to/from work etc after school and you're at 12.5 hours already. That leaves 1.5 hours for any sports or other extra-curricular activities, homework, family time and socializing on an average weekday if we're allowing for 10 hours of sleep. It's easy to see why kids can't get that full 10 hours of sleep at night, and changing the time school starts might not alter the fact that they don't get 10 full hours, but it might mean that the time they are at school they are more alert and productive because of "which" hours they are at school. I am most productive after 3 pm, but I know others who are least productive after 3 pm.

In my opinion the best solution would be to offer options of start times rather than having everyone start early or everyone start late. Have some classes go 8-3 and others go 10-5 and give kids/families the choice. I think this would be good in all grade levels, not just high school.

P.S. I went on to obtain a college degree and have a great job, so my decision to quit school didn't hurt me although I'd discourage it for anyone else. I was fortunate to make it work out well for myself.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

DIST! what could you be thinking man! personal responsibility???/!/??? that went out with the sixties mann.
parents should [gasp] parent their offspring????
I hope you do not have other radical, scarey, revolutionary ideas to post in future blogs! my gawd mann, what are you trying to do to this forum? what are you trying to do to Lawrence?

you obviously need to go to a reeducation camp run by the benevolent citizens' committee! they will decide your life, how you might parent your child, and even how much money you deserve to have!

here's an alternative calculation to your blog posting's description of the time schedule. shame on you. you are obviously prejudiced against country families.
this is from my own experience: alarm awakened me at 5a.m.; got up, milked the goats while Mom made breakfast; usually said breakfast included chilled goat milk and lots of protein; finish breakfast; walk to bus stop often most of a mile away; catch bus and begin bus ride to high school of about one hour's duration; take nap on bus; arrive at high school in time for classes that started approximately at 7;30.
thus, an alternative formula to yours had me in bed at about 9p.m. the night before, and never later than 10p.m.
if school started at 8;30a.m., then I'd have stayed up an hour later. qed.

thus, I adjusted my work and schedule so I got enough sleep and was on time for the bus in the morning. Voila! the goats got their udders drained too.

thus, I was not trained in my youth to be a narcissist. school times did not revolve around me, and I didn't expect them to do so.
working on the farm every day also helped.

thanks for this blog DIST.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

clearly SheProceeds is raising a narcissist.

and Mach-mania, I really didn't want to think about her gonads! I might have to clean up the floor.
she believes in science. well do then. a recent study showed that "green shoppers" are far more likely to lie cheat and steal [see my own blog on this].
somehow I bet mama machiemania isn't going to believe in that "science! lol.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Wow! A whole lotta resistance to getting up on time.

Still, the way we homo sapiens are organized around the Mon-Fri commercial day, the quickest way out the door in any job is to show up late.

In probation period for entry level new hires, union jobs usually first 6 months, tardy is not tolerated and there is nothing flexible about the policy. Three two minute incidents will usher one out the door.

Elementary and High School is supposed to prepare one for indepenent living.

The following is the first question on test from Professional Personnel Development Center module. ?Explain the importance of attendance and punctuality on the job? Answer = The Smale Printing Company was waiting for a rush delivery of special paper to finish a job due at the end of the day. The delivery truck arrived promptly at 8:00 AM as scheduled. Ron, the small company's only warehouse man, was 25 minutes late for work so he had not arrived. He had the keys for the forklift locked in his desk and had his desk keys with him. The delivery man waited 15 minutes and then pulled out to make other important deliveries, promising to return later in the day. The company missed an important deadline and lost a number of future contracts because of the incident. Not only did Ron's tardiness cost the company production time and money, he affected the earning power of his co-workers.

I think common sense should rule on this question rather than wild a$$ assertions. Kids, WAKE UUUUUPPPP!!!!!

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Employers need dependable people to get the job done. Good attendance and punctuality also show an employer that you have a good attitude toward your job. Dependability and attitude go a long way in helping you to get pay raises, promotions, and better references.

Erica and Susan are discussing their jobs one day.

"My boss says he doesn't need a clock because I always walk through the door at 7:15," said Erica.

"I thought you don't start until 7:30," said Susan, taking a bite out of her Big Mac.

"What the heck do you get there so early for? It's not like you're getting paid for it."

"I don't like to be rushing in. I like to get there and get all set and have a cup of coffee. The company's small and my boss depends on me. I got in the habit of going early and it's been great."

Erica has a good attitude and will go far in her career.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Remember, when you work for someone and accept pay from them, you are forming a work contract. It is your duty to be at work regularly and on time. Employers don't hire people to give away money - they hire them to produce. No matter how unimportant you may think your job is, if an employer is paying you to do the job, he thinks it is important and should get his money's worth.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Excuse the merril type post and the double please.

Back in the day, when working in R&D there was no fixed schedule, it was the nature of the work I suppose. We had no fixed work schedule but we had deadlines. The campus and bulding were 24x7. Not unuual to see people coming and going at all hours.

When we had meetings, the last one in the room was assigned scribe (can you say punishment?).

Now at end of carreer back in real world end of business it's shamefull to see a bright young new hire, full of energy and bright sent packing because they just can't get to work on time. Attendance is number one reson for firing/dismissal.

Unhappily, for some here on this forum, people have to be counted on to be at work on time.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

It’s not what you pay a man but what he costs you that counts. (Will Rogers)

teller 5 years, 2 months ago

I say they continue going to school at the same times they currently do. In my opinion, if their start times are pushed back so they can sleep in, we are just teaching them to be lazy just as they are entering the job market. Sure, some workers enjoy shifts with later start times, and sometimes even over night, but the majority of workers are employed from 8am - 5pm. I feel this is a very bad idea. Being a parent, I am also concerned of what this will do to the family schedule. Employers are not going to change parents start times just because their child is going to school later. Also, teens are going to use this as an excuse to stay out later and go to bed later. Their thought process tells them that if they don't have to wake up until later, they can sleep in later. Bad idea all around, I say.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 2 months ago

When I was in school we were required to be in bed by 9pm Sunday-Thursday. If we had a concert it was right home and get ready for bed no exceptions. We were also required to bathe daily so the proces started at 7:30. If we had a school event we had to bathe before we went to the event. We were up by 6am without exception (even snow days we had to get up and be ready just in case) It didn't kill me and I don't think I lost any sleep.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Yeah, and my dad spent too much of his life waking us up, had the same experience with my children.

Get Up! Get Up! Get Up! (10 minutes later) Get Up! Get Up! Get Up! (10 minutes later) Get Up! Get Up! Get Up! (10 minutes later) Get Up! Get Up! Get Up!

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

A cheap squirt gun works good at getting them out of bed. You can stand in the door and be gone quickly if they come up swinging and yelling. Get cold water from the fridge, even better.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Dual purpose, also handy for keeping the cats off the kitchen counter. Ah, the beauty of classical conditioning.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

What the heck, I'll throw this in. Knew a kid a couple or years ago in high school here that when the school year ended his grade was not passing because he didn't have all his homework in. They allowed the students an extra month or so after school ended to get the work in thus raising their grade. Don't know if they did it this year or not. Does this prepare them for college and the real world?

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Yes and no. I have a greatfull place embedded in my psyche for the only teacher I had that gave me a leg up. Spent most of the school year coming in non Saturdays to catch up. Resulted in 4 years math in HS including Calc. and early graduation instead of abject failure.

Unhappily, in real world now the program/process is the solution. Not much chance of getting any one-on-one type help like that in the real world now. The good of the many outweighs the good of one the straggler.

Check out the children passing through our inner city diagnostic and placement mental health centers. Our throw aways. Not good chances they ever get a leg up. Best prospects for them is survival.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Agree, don't know how may sons made it through high school, they were just bodies to them.

workinghard 5 years, 2 months ago

So you're just here slumming? You are coming here to argue with people you do not feel are your equals. Is that because your equals make you feel inferior?

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Graduated early from public HS due to summer school credit in Fortran and Cobol 1967-68.

Rainbow Mental Health Center Kansas City, KS down hill from KU Med Center was the one I was affiliated with for 5 years.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

Wouldn't trade my university experience for nuttin honey.

Did it get me a job/carreer? Nope, not the major. But the programming/engineering jag I was on in 60's 70's ree hee hee lee gave me a leg up while in R&D/10yrs and now keeping the www chugging along and expanding.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Why should scientists even bother with studies of human sleep patterns and the development of the human brain? We already have all the experts right here on this board! Studies be damned, because we already know what is best!

Besides, it isn't like U.S. schools need to worry about how they compare to the rest of the world or anything. Who needs to worry about a global market?

Excuse me, I will now go put my head in a bucket of sand. Much easier to understand things that way.


beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

MM, I have no idea as to the level of education others here have, but I wouldn't call most on this thread uneducated. Stuck in their ways and refusing to consider an alternative, sure, but not uneducated.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Machiavelli_mania (anonymous) says… "Community colleges prepare kids for college and all kids should use them"

Just talked to a graduate student that was told that "studies" show that most kids that go to community colleges for two years then a regular college for two years usually don't go on to graduate school to get a Masters. Note: this was at the School of Education at the University of Michigan which is on of the top universities in that field.

beatrice 5 years, 2 months ago

Most kids who just go to a regular college for four years don't go on to get their Masters either. I don't think you need to do a study to realize this.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

Dist says: You did what you had to do. The problem today is kids do not have to go to bed on time. I am amazed at how many buy into studies that validated the one of the first rebellious acts of youth. The fact is teens choose to go to bed later because they can.

---right on DIST! and you are 100% correct about teen rebellion. unfortunately far too much teen rebellion is somehow now accepted, tolerated, or even reinforced in our culture.

yes, I did what I had to do and I never even thought of griping about the time, either. sometimes I did gripe about the lame crap on the radio at 5a.m.! [I had an alarm radio]

sometimes I did gripe about some of the chores, but my parents were right to punish me when I didn't get work done that needed to be done.

Wow I1, high caffeine intake at 0600-hours, eh?

I agree with all you wrote. some now, often liberals, think that businesses only exist to provide jobs and pay taxes. they have no concept that a business needs to make a profit. and by extension, every one on a business payroll has to either add value, prevent loss, or improve efficiency.

if someone is being paid, they must be worth paying. duh.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

Check out the children passing through our inner city diagnostic and placement mental health centers. Our throw aways. Not good chances they ever get a leg up. Best prospects for them is survival.

---I1, I am impressed. very well said.

Machie-mama-manic, if you needed more sleep in high school, it seems that for such a highly intelligent womyn as you, the solution would be very easy to figure: go to bed earlier!

and as to uneducated, 'honey' [your word] I hold an M.A. and education beyond that. your claim that people with Masters Degrees don't earn more is completely false. many professions in america now require an M.A. or higher.

or is this more of your 'intuition?' lol! your writing belies your claims of being highly edumicatededededdd!

and I did go to a community college, I had to pay for the credits, so I don't know what dimension you live in Machie-mama-manic!

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

I read, not all that long ago, that a college degree is viewed the same way as a high school diploma was back in the 70's. It is now the norm and many employers are looking for more.

Armored_One 5 years, 2 months ago

I dare someone to answer this question. A real simple question, just to take away some of the challenge.

How in the hell did we get out of the 50's, when kids had to listen to parents, schools actually had authority, and kids were taught to answer for themselves, not hide behind a bunch of horse hockey?

Take the damned cell phone away. Hang the phone up, if you still have a landline. Turn the light off.

Every damned one of you has a freaking child fetish. It's twisted, disturbing and, most of all, disempowering.

Let me guess. You are the same bunch of people that insist that a good swat on the tail is child abuse and yelling at your child is absolutely horrendous.

And I thought people that had a foot fetish were disturbing, but this...

It's all in the routine. Establish one. Adhere to it. It WILL work. My son attends Free State. Leaves the house by 7 in the morning to catch the bus. His lowest grade is a solid B at the moment, and that is on the rise.

Yeah, he is SOOOO crippled by not lounging around for a couple of hours before school.

independant1 5 years, 2 months ago

settled science strikes again! au contraire, today settled science just means the latest and greatest idea, it ain't scientific to use correlational studies and extrapolate to cause/effect. It's an argument - moving HS start time to give students more REM sleep - a stretch at best.

I just read a Time article about reduced anxiety due to ownership of gold bullion, the science is settled.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

LadyJ writes: I read, not all that long ago, that a college degree is viewed the same way as a high school diploma was back in the 70's. It is now the norm and many employers are looking for more.

---quite true. I am shocked at how illiterate most high school grads are! sadly, some B.A. grads can't write a decent story/paper now!
I suspect that is why many employers seek a B.A. instead of high school completion.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

very well said Armored-one and Jesse!
but if a parent is going to parent all these distractions can be managed. plus give the kid a goat to milk ... pun intended.

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

I wonder if Pastor Terry Jones got to sleep in for later classes?

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

obviously Lew perkins was allowed to sleep in, and had weak parents. lol

bearded_gnome 5 years, 2 months ago

hey DIST, a small point but ... the doc is wrong. the amount of sleep an individual needs does vary. 9-10 hours is nice. however, Edison did rather well with almost no sleep. others may actually need 11 and a half hours of sleep. the old rule of thumb was 8-hours, and that's not bad.

LadyJ 5 years, 2 months ago

Today we get this from the "experts" http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2010/sep... college is a bad investment and could just be "herd mentality".

Tom883 5 years, 2 months ago

The only fallacy here is in did_I_say_that's reasoning: "The total time slept is the difference between the wake time and bedtime."

The total time slept is NOT the difference between wake time and bedtime, it is the difference between wake time and going-to-sleep time

This is a common error, frequently made by people who are naturally early risers ("larks"). They fail to distinguish between "going to bed" and "going to sleep". In their minds, these things are one and the same, so they respond to any complaints about insufficient sleep with "just go to bed earlier".

Let's work it out from the beginning... First, it is simply not possible to FORCE yourself to sleep. If it were, then jet lag would not exist. "Night shift syndrome" (the problems that many people on night shifts have, where they find it hard to sleep in the daytime) would not exist. And those people who wake at 4 or 5 am, and "can't get back to sleep" would not exist. If there was something that people could just do to MAKE themselves go to sleep, none of these things could exist... but they do.

So there must be something else at work... and there is. In scientific terms it is called "circadian rhythm". But let's keep things simple: In order to sleep, your body must be ready for sleep. You must be "sleepy". That is the definition of sleepy: when you are sleepy you can fall asleep, when you are not sleepy you cannot fall asleep... simple as that.

By a quirk of nature, larks happen to get sleepy quite early in the evening, often several hours before their normal bedtime. So, when they do go to bed, they are very sleepy already, and usually fall asleep very quickly. And if they go to bed earlier, they will fall asleep earlier. As a result, in their minds, "going to bed" and "going to sleep" are basically the same thing.

What they are forgetting is that getting to sleep requires TWO things: you have to go to bed, AND you have to be sleepy. Unless BOTH conditions are met you won't be able to sleep.

So, if you get sleepy at 9:30pm, but don't go to bed until midnight you won't get to sleep until midnight. Pretty much everyone understands that; that's what we call "staying up late". But what larks often forget (or don't understand) is that if you go to bed at 9:30pm, but don't get sleepy until midnight, then you won't fall asleep until midnight.

Under those circumstances, going to bed early is nothing but a waste of time. What is the point of lying in bed tossing and turning? If you are wide awake you might as well be up and doing something.

This is the heart of the "go to bed early" fallacy... The confusion between an action which is under conscious control and can be done at any time (going to bed), and an involuntary action which is NOT under conscious control and depends on a natural internal clock (going to sleep). That is why "go to bed early" is such useless advice.

Tom883 5 years, 2 months ago

"Equated humans to larks"? I have done no such thing!

The term "lark", is simply a label for a certain kind of person: one who has a natural tendency to fall asleep and wake up earlier than average. An equivalent term is "early bird". And the opposite - a person who has a natural tendency to fall asleep and wake up later than average - is often called an "owl" or "night owl".

These are merely convenient labels, commonly used in discussions about the timing of sleep, to avoid pointlessly repeating the full descriptive phrases. I thought I made this clear when I wrote 'people who are naturally early risers ("larks")'. I am not equating people to actual birds - that would be absurd.

You say that you "assumed that bedtime, to a reasonable degree, equalled the time that one would go to sleep". I say that this is not a valid assumption. Anyone can go to bed at 9:30... going to bed is a conscious act. But not everyone can go to sleep at 9:30. Sleep is controlled by a natural rhythm, and cannot be switched on and off at will.

There is simply no guarantee that moving bedtime forward will result in earlier sleep. It works for some people, and fails to work for others. Just because it works for you, it does not follow that it will work for everyone.

Are you saying that EVERY one of the youths you fostered was able to get to sleep at the early bedtimes you imposed? That NONE of them had problems doing so?

Tom883 5 years, 1 month ago

Why should they do either? No-one is suggesting that school should go on until midnight. There is no reason that anyone should have to stay up any later than they do at present.

These early-bird teens could continue to wake and sleep at their natural times. The only result would be a little more free time before school, and a little less afterwards.

At present, school start times are so early that early-bird students are about the ONLY ones who are getting enough sleep. They are lucky enough that the school day falls inside their own natural period of wakefulness. Why should they be the only ones to have this advantage?

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